subject:"\[MBZ\] Booth Cold Method \(BCM\) Rationale"

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

2005-11-17 Thread Mike Piles

When I changed mine.  I put in 6 quarts.  Run the engine a few minutes to
fill the oil filter/galleys.  Turn the engine off.  Let the car sit
overnight add oil in the morning to bring it to the proper level.

Mike Piles
1985 300SD

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Christopher McCann
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 9:10 PM
To: Mercedes mailing list
Subject: Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale



"Once you change  to Mobil 1 (and some other synthetics) the scheme that's
outline in
older (up thru the mid '90s or a bit later) owner's manual doesn't
work. Mercedes solved the problem by eliminating the dipstick before they
mandated synthetic oil."

Well, that makes sense as the average person will not wait 8 hours to check
their oil, they will do it whenever or at fill up.

It also shows a consistency in MB instructions as I have a hard time NOT
doing what they say and here (old cars, synthetic oil) is obviously
something they are not interested in addressing.

Why synthetics take longer to reach the sump is still a mystery to me, but
one I don't really need to understand.

Thanks,

Chris



Marshall Booth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The only way to be sure there is 8
qt of oil in the engine is to empty
the engine COMPLETELY and then put 8 qt of oil into it! The use of the
dipstick is a simple method for checking the oil content of the engine.
It worked rather reliably when conventional oil is used. Once you change
to Mobil 1 (and some other synthetics) the scheme that's outline in
older (up thru the mid '90s or a bit later) owner's manual doesn't work.
Mercedes solved the problem by eliminating the dipstick before they
mandated synthetic oil.

The problem with Mobil 1 (and most other oils composed of group IV & V
base) is that they may take as long as 6-8 hours to return to the sump
under some conditions! What's important is the TOTAL quantity of oil in
the engine - NOT the quantity of oil in the sump.

Marshall
--
   Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions)
   "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
'87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5
turbo 237kmi

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Christopher McCann, Squier Park, Kansas City, Missouri
-2005 Blue Point Siamese, "Rose"
-1987 300TD, 150K, "Rotkäppchen"
-1985 300SD, 209K, "Wulf"
-1976 240D, ?K, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen)
-1972 Jacobsen 21" Turbo Vent
-1971 Case 222 Hydrive, 12HP Kohler, 38" deck, Snowcaster, "One Banger"

-
 Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
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Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

2005-11-16 Thread Kevin J. Slater

And where is the coil wire on a diesel? :-)

...Kevin
87 300TD 278k mi

Christopher McCann said:
> although accurate, not very convenient on a regular basis!
>
>  Chris
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> you should not really concern your self with 1/2 qt of  oil
>  the way to accurately check oil is to a change oil using 8 qt of
> oiland
> filter
>  crank the engine with the dist coil wire off  and placed nest to  a
> ground
> point to get the oil pumped up in to the filter  and tensioners  maybe 15
> or so
> sec.
>  replace coil wire start engine  and check for leaks
>  because you added 8 qts. of oil you know exactly what is in the  engine
>  collins
>  1985 500 sec
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/15/2005 6:16:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>
> SO, the GOAL OF THE DIPSTICK is that when it reads halfway  between min
> and
> max AFTER FOLLOWING MB's INSTRUCTIONS, you will indeed  have the  correct
> quantity of oil in the engine.
>
> I  imagine that Marshall would not insist on the BCM without having  years
> of experience behind him on this...so I must ask. Marshall, are  you
> saying
> that if my eninge calls for 8 quarts and by Divine  Revelation I  know
> there are
> exactly 8 quarts of M1 in the engine AND I  follow the  procedure above,
> the
> reading on the dipstick will read low?  And if I top  it off so that the
> dipstick reads dead center, I have now  8+ quarts of  M1?
>
> I know you have said that you don't know why this is,  it just is. Any
> elaboration would be appreciated, because I can't see  how it makes  sense
> either.
> If anything, would not M1 return to the  crankcase MORE  QUICKLY than dino
> oil
> causing the dipstick, if anything,  to READ HIGHER  when following the
> above
> instructions.
>
> This just doesn't make sense to me.
>
> My own  experience with M1 in the SD is that it reads the same following
> the
> MB  instructions as when using the BCM. Which is sort of what lead  me to
> this e-mail...the only way that can be the case is that M1 does  indeed,
> after
> a few minutes, LARGELY flow back into the  crankcase...giving  nearly the
> same
> reading at 2 minutes as at 8 hours.
>
> Additionally, if we were saying that the BCM applies only to some
> obscure
> oil, that might make sense, but it's M1...MB's oil of   choice...how can
> they
> not know how to use a dipstick? It seems a bit   absurd. Now, the memo is
> 10
> years old, maybe a new one has superceded   it...maybe M1 has changed
> since
> then...don't know.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
>
>
>
>
> Christopher McCann, Squier Park, Kansas City, Missouri
> -2005 Blue Point Siamese, "Rose"
> -1987 300TD, 150K, "Rotkäppchen"
> -1985 300SD, 209K, "Wulf"
> -1976 240D, ?K, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen)
> -1972 Jacobsen 21" Turbo Vent
> -1971 Case 222 Hydrive, 12HP Kohler, 38" deck, Snowcaster, "One Banger"
>
> -
>  Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
> ___
> For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/
> For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://striplin.net/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_striplin.net
>
>


-- 
"Thank God for Microsoft" -- Linus Torvalds

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

2005-11-16 Thread Fmiser

rumor has it that [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> you should not really concern your self with 1/2 qt of  oil 
>  the way to accurately check oil is to a change oil using 8 qt of  oiland 
> filter
>  crank the engine with the dist coil wire off  and placed nest to  a ground 
> point to get the oil pumped up in to the filter  and tensioners  maybe 15 or 
> so 
> sec.
>  replace coil wire start engine  and check for leaks 

Boy. I guess I'll have to look more closely at my cars. I've got a
bunch of cars that are quite similar to the three that Chris has... and
in all the years I've been working on them I haven't yet found a "dist
coil" that I could have "placed nest to  a ground point".

I learn something new every day!!

So maybe you guys can help me. Where _is_ the dist coil on my OM616 and
OM617 engines?

Philip

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

2005-11-16 Thread Christopher McCann

yes, I leaarned this the...easy way...fill it to full, take a trip, check oil, 
reads mid way, take the rest of the trip (3 times as many miles as the first 
leg) and it never moves below mid-way. Gets burned off/blown out fast.

 Chris

LT Don <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I can personally attest to the truth of this 
statement!

On 11/16/05, Marshall Booth  wrote:
>
> When the oil level increases much over the mid
> level, oil consumption increases

--
1977 240D
1972 Honda CB-500K motorcycle

http://www.airamericaradio.com/listen
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Christopher McCann, Squier Park, Kansas City, Missouri
-2005 Blue Point Siamese, "Rose"
-1987 300TD, 150K, "Rotkäppchen"
-1985 300SD, 209K, "Wulf" 
-1976 240D, ?K, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen)
-1972 Jacobsen 21" Turbo Vent
-1971 Case 222 Hydrive, 12HP Kohler, 38" deck, Snowcaster, "One Banger"

-
 Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.  
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Subject: [MBZ] battery chargers
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Yes, I know the correct answer is "Battery Tender" -- it is on my Christmas
wish list.

But here is my question. Is there any significant damage done by leaving a
normal battery charger on overnight, where it might get to zero amps but
stay attached for a few hours? This is not a fancy battery charger that
shuts off or kicks into trickle mode or such.

I did leave it on overnight routinely last winter with no apparent damage,
but am curious about the long term impact of doing this. We're talking in m=
y
case one of the Interstate Battery mega-mothers under the hood, not a cheap
off-brand battery.

Don

--
1977 240D
1972 Honda CB-500K motorcycle

http://www.airamericaradio.com/listen

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

2005-11-16 Thread Christopher McCann

although accurate, not very convenient on a regular basis!
 
 Chris

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  

you should not really concern your self with 1/2 qt of  oil 
 the way to accurately check oil is to a change oil using 8 qt of  oiland 
filter
 crank the engine with the dist coil wire off  and placed nest to  a ground 
point to get the oil pumped up in to the filter  and tensioners  maybe 15 or so 
sec.
 replace coil wire start engine  and check for leaks 
 because you added 8 qts. of oil you know exactly what is in the  engine 
 collins 
 1985 500 sec 
   
 
 
In a message dated 11/15/2005 6:16:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


SO, the GOAL OF THE DIPSTICK is that when it reads halfway  between min  and 
max AFTER FOLLOWING MB's INSTRUCTIONS, you will indeed  have the  correct 
quantity of oil in the engine.

I  imagine that Marshall would not insist on the BCM without having  years  
of experience behind him on this...so I must ask. Marshall, are  you  saying 
that if my eninge calls for 8 quarts and by Divine  Revelation I  know there 
are 
exactly 8 quarts of M1 in the engine AND I  follow the  procedure above, the 
reading on the dipstick will read low?  And if I top  it off so that the 
dipstick reads dead center, I have now  8+ quarts of  M1?

I know you have said that you don't know why this is,  it just is. Any  
elaboration would be appreciated, because I can't see  how it makes  sense 
either. 
If anything, would not M1 return to the  crankcase MORE  QUICKLY than dino oil 
causing the dipstick, if anything,  to READ HIGHER  when following the above 
instructions.

This just doesn't make sense to me.

My own  experience with M1 in the SD is that it reads the same following  the 
MB  instructions as when using the BCM. Which is sort of what lead  me to  
this e-mail...the only way that can be the case is that M1 does  indeed,  after 
a few minutes, LARGELY flow back into the  crankcase...giving  nearly the same 
reading at 2 minutes as at 8 hours.

Additionally, if we were saying that the BCM applies only to some   obscure 
oil, that might make sense, but it's M1...MB's oil of   choice...how can they 
not know how to use a dipstick? It seems a bit   absurd. Now, the memo is 10 
years old, maybe a new one has superceded   it...maybe M1 has changed since 
then...don't know.





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Christopher McCann, Squier Park, Kansas City, Missouri
-2005 Blue Point Siamese, "Rose"
-1987 300TD, 150K, "Rotkäppchen"
-1985 300SD, 209K, "Wulf" 
-1976 240D, ?K, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen)
-1972 Jacobsen 21" Turbo Vent
-1971 Case 222 Hydrive, 12HP Kohler, 38" deck, Snowcaster, "One Banger"

-
 Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.  
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Subject: Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale
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Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

2005-11-16 Thread Christopher McCann

"Once you change  to Mobil 1 (and some other synthetics) the scheme that's 
outline in 
older (up thru the mid '90s or a bit later) owner's manual doesn't 
work. Mercedes solved the problem by eliminating the dipstick before they 
mandated synthetic oil."

Well, that makes sense as the average person will not wait 8 hours to check 
their oil, they will do it whenever or at fill up.

It also shows a consistency in MB instructions as I have a hard time NOT doing 
what they say and here (old cars, synthetic oil) is obviously something they 
are not interested in addressing.

Why synthetics take longer to reach the sump is still a mystery to me, but one 
I don't really need to understand.

Thanks,

Chris

Marshall Booth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The only way to be sure there is 8 qt 
of oil in the engine is to empty 
the engine COMPLETELY and then put 8 qt of oil into it! The use of the 
dipstick is a simple method for checking the oil content of the engine. 
It worked rather reliably when conventional oil is used. Once you change 
to Mobil 1 (and some other synthetics) the scheme that's outline in 
older (up thru the mid '90s or a bit later) owner's manual doesn't work. 
Mercedes solved the problem by eliminating the dipstick before they 
mandated synthetic oil.

The problem with Mobil 1 (and most other oils composed of group IV & V 
base) is that they may take as long as 6-8 hours to return to the sump 
under some conditions! What's important is the TOTAL quantity of oil in 
the engine - NOT the quantity of oil in the sump.

Marshall
-- 
   Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions)
   "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
'87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 
turbo 237kmi

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Christopher McCann, Squier Park, Kansas City, Missouri
-2005 Blue Point Siamese, "Rose"
-1987 300TD, 150K, "Rotkäppchen"
-1985 300SD, 209K, "Wulf" 
-1976 240D, ?K, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen)
-1972 Jacobsen 21" Turbo Vent
-1971 Case 222 Hydrive, 12HP Kohler, 38" deck, Snowcaster, "One Banger"

-
 Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.  
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Subject: Re: [MBZ] Identifying Fasteners
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What a great reference! Thanks Larry!

Tim
1982 300TD Moby

On 11/15/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Printable-Fastener-Tools.as=
px
> has several printable tools to help identify fastener sizes.  After
> printing, lay the fastener against the sheet to find the appropriate size=
.
>
> HTH's
>
> Sincerely,
> Larry T ('74 911, '67 MGB)
> A Blood Test for your oil - www.youroil.net
> For Test Results http://members.rennlist.com/oil
> Weber Carb Stuff http://members.ren

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

2005-11-16 Thread PONDERSOA

 

you should not really concern your self with 1/2 qt of  oil 
 the way to accurately check oil is to a change oil using 8 qt of  oiland 
filter
 crank the engine with the dist coil wire off  and placed nest to  a ground 
point to get the oil pumped up in to the filter  and tensioners  maybe 15 or so 
sec.
 replace coil wire start engine  and check for leaks 
 because you added 8 qts. of oil you know exactly what is in the  engine 
 collins 
 1985 500 sec 
   
 
 
In a message dated 11/15/2005 6:16:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


SO, the GOAL OF THE DIPSTICK is that when it reads halfway  between min  and 
max AFTER FOLLOWING MB's INSTRUCTIONS, you will indeed  have the  correct 
quantity of oil in the engine.

I  imagine that Marshall would not insist on the BCM without having  years  
of experience behind him on this...so I must ask. Marshall, are  you  saying 
that if my eninge calls for 8 quarts and by Divine  Revelation I  know there 
are 
exactly 8 quarts of M1 in the engine AND I  follow the  procedure above, the 
reading on the dipstick will read low?  And if I top  it off so that the 
dipstick reads dead center, I have now  8+ quarts of  M1?

I know you have said that you don't know why this is,  it just is. Any  
elaboration would be appreciated, because I can't see  how it makes  sense 
either. 
If anything, would not M1 return to the  crankcase MORE  QUICKLY than dino oil 
causing the dipstick, if anything,  to READ HIGHER  when following the above 
instructions.

This just doesn't make sense to me.

My own  experience with M1 in the SD is that it reads the same following  the 
MB  instructions as when using the BCM. Which is sort of what lead  me to  
this e-mail...the only way that can be the case is that M1 does  indeed,  after 
a few minutes, LARGELY flow back into the  crankcase...giving  nearly the same 
reading at 2 minutes as at 8 hours.

Additionally, if we were saying that the BCM applies only to some   obscure 
oil, that might make sense, but it's M1...MB's oil of   choice...how can they 
not know how to use a dipstick? It seems a bit   absurd. Now, the memo is 10 
years old, maybe a new one has superceded   it...maybe M1 has changed since 
then...don't know.

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

2005-11-16 Thread Marshall Booth

Mercedes specifies in MANY places that the optimum oil level is between 
a pt and a qt below the MAX mark (they say it lots of different way, but 
that's the bottom line). When the oil level increases much over the mid 
level, oil consumption increases (that's been true of every Mercedes 
I've owned for more than 40 years). In TSB 00/57A (and other Mercedes 
procedural outlines) owners are cautioned to NOT frequently top up the 
oil level but to wait until the oil reaches the ADD mark. They have 
finally insured this by eliminating the dipstick and giving the owner NO 
clue as to oil level until the "add oil" warning is displayed.


Marshall
--
  Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions)
  "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
'87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 
turbo 237kmi

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

2005-11-16 Thread Marshall Booth

The only way to be sure there is 8 qt of oil in the engine is to empty 
the engine COMPLETELY and then put 8 qt of oil into it! The use of the 
dipstick is a simple method for checking the oil content of the engine. 
It worked rather reliably when conventional oil is used. Once you change 
to Mobil 1 (and some other synthetics) the scheme that's outline in 
older (up thru the mid '90s or a bit later) owner's manual doesn't work. 
Mercedes solved the problem by eliminating the dipstick before they 
mandated synthetic oil.


The problem with Mobil 1 (and most other oils composed of group IV & V 
base) is that they may take as long as 6-8 hours to return to the sump 
under some conditions! What's important is the TOTAL quantity of oil in 
the engine - NOT the quantity of oil in the sump.


Marshall
--
  Marshall Booth (who doesn't respond to unsigned questions)
  "der Dieseling Doktor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
'87 300TD 182Kmi, '84 190D 2.2 229Kmi, '85 190D 2.0 161Kmi, '87 190D 2.5 
turbo 237kmi

[MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

2005-11-15 Thread Christopher McCann

I've been thinking (yes, this is already trouble).
  
  I have a printout of a thing entitled "amb service information" dated  11/95 
with a reference # of MBNA 00/57A (supercedes S.I. MBNA 00/57)
  Revision: Revised checking/correcting oil level procedure
  SUBJECT: ALL MODELS ENGINE OIL LEVEL
  
  to quote: "...the engine should be at normal operating temperature (80 degees 
C) and that the vehicle is parked on a level surface. The engine must not have 
run for approx. 2 minutes, to allow the engine oil to drain into the oil pan." 
yadda yadda
  
  NOW, the paragraph before this quote emphasizes "to fill the engine  with the 
exact amount of engine oil specified for that engine" and goes  on to say that 
if that is 8.5 quarts, do not use 9 quarts or 9 liters,  etc...USE 8.5 quarts.
  
  SO, the GOAL OF THE DIPSTICK is that when it reads halfway between min  and 
max AFTER FOLLOWING MB's INSTRUCTIONS, you will indeed have the  correct 
quantity of oil in the engine.
  
  I imagine that Marshall would not insist on the BCM without having  years of 
experience behind him on this...so I must ask. Marshall, are  you saying that 
if my eninge calls for 8 quarts and by Divine  Revelation I know there are 
exactly 8 quarts of M1 in the engine AND I  follow the procedure above, the 
reading on the dipstick will read low?  And if I top it off so that the 
dipstick reads dead center, I have now  8+ quarts of M1?
  
  I know you have said that you don't know why this is, it just is. Any  
elaboration would be appreciated, because I can't see how it makes  sense 
either. If anything, would not M1 return to the crankcase MORE  QUICKLY than 
dino oil causing the dipstick, if anything, to READ HIGHER  when following the 
above instructions.
  
  This just doesn't make sense to me.
  
  My own experience with M1 in the SD is that it reads the same following  the 
MB instructions as when using the BCM. Which is sort of what lead  me to this 
e-mail...the only way that can be the case is that M1 does  indeed, after a few 
minutes, LARGELY flow back into the  crankcase...giving nearly the same reading 
at 2 minutes as at 8 hours.
  
  Additionally, if we were saying that the BCM applies only to some  obscure 
oil, that might make sense, but it's M1...MB's oil of  choice...how can they 
not know how to use a dipstick? It seems a bit  absurd. Now, the memo is 10 
years old, maybe a new one has superceded  it...maybe M1 has changed since 
then...don't know.
  
  I'm not trying to be a smartass, Dr. Booth, it just doesn't make sense  to me 
and any light you might be able to shed, as always, is greatly  appreciated.
  
  
  


Christopher McCann, Squier Park, Kansas City, Missouri
-2005 Blue Point Siamese, "Rose"
-1987 300TD, 150K, "Rotkäppchen"
-1985 300SD, 209K, "Wulf" 
-1976 240D, ?K, "AKP-Wagen" (Alternativen Kraftstoffs Prüfenlastwagen)
-1972 Jacobsen 21" Turbo Vent
-1971 Case 222 Hydrive, 12HP Kohler, 38" deck, Snowcaster, "One Banger"

-
 Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.  
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Subject: [MBZ] Identifying Fasteners
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X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 23:38:37 -

http://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Printable-Fastener-Tools.aspx
has several printable tools to help identify fastener sizes.  After 
printing, lay the fastener against the sheet to find the appropriate size.

HTH's

Si

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

Re: [MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

[MBZ] Booth Cold Method (BCM) Rationale

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