Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-07 Thread WILTON
Build date (month and year) is usually stamped on the data plate on the 
driver's door latch post; for example 2/84, 12/83, or 6/84, etc.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Curt Raymond" 

To: "Diesel List" 
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD


Its an '84, presumably an early one, how do I find the build date? It is 
indeed a 2.2l.


Interesting things about this car:
Mono wiper with no in/out thingie
Glow plug light on the left side of the steering wheel
14" wheels with their special bolts
and other stuff I've surely forgotten..

-Curt

Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 14:02:47 -0800
From: David Bruckmann 
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The
TDM lists specific models with this "won't shift down" behaviour. Some
123/124/201 models behave differently than others, and as you say the
shift gate pattern is no particular indicator. Specifically, the 1984/85
190E 2.3 and 190D 2.2 are listed in the TDM, but it presumably boils
down to a specific build date that may or may not coincide with the
model year. IIRC there are also a couple of 124 models listed, but I
don't have the TDM with me and so cannot look them up right now.

Curt: what is the build date on your 190D, and is it a 2.2?


Alex Chamberlain wrote:


I find this hard to believe. Do you mean that you can't force the
transmission into first even by moving the lever to position 2 at a
stop? Why would D-B go to the trouble of making a special
transmission without this feature? It wouldn't affect fuel economy
ratings, since the transmission would behave the same if left in D.

I assume this related to the shift gate being labelled D/3/2 instead of 
D/S/L.


FWIW, both of the 722.x cars I have, an '86 300E and '87 300D, have
the same shift gate, yet the 300D starts in first and the 300E in
second (but can be forced to start in first by putting the lever in
position 2 when stopped). The shift gate is not a reliable indicator
of transmission behavior.

Alex




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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-07 Thread Fred Moir

Hey, Curt.
Send me the chassis number, and the engines number, I may well have a 
spare head for you, new valves and all.


Fred Moir
Lynn MA
Diesel preferred


On 3/7/2011 9:28 PM, Curt Raymond wrote:

Its an '84, presumably an early one, how do I find the build date? It is indeed 
a 2.2l.

Interesting things about this car:
Mono wiper with no in/out thingie
Glow plug light on the left side of the steering wheel
14" wheels with their special bolts
and other stuff I've surely forgotten..
-Curt


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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-07 Thread Curt Raymond
Its an '84, presumably an early one, how do I find the build date? It is indeed 
a 2.2l.

Interesting things about this car:
Mono wiper with no in/out thingie
Glow plug light on the left side of the steering wheel
14" wheels with their special bolts
and other stuff I've surely forgotten..

-Curt

Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 14:02:47 -0800
From: David Bruckmann 
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The
 TDM lists specific models with this "won't shift down" behaviour. Some 
123/124/201 models behave differently than others, and as you say the 
shift gate pattern is no particular indicator. Specifically, the 1984/85
 190E 2.3 and 190D 2.2 are listed in the TDM, but it presumably boils 
down to a specific build date that may or may not coincide with the 
model year. IIRC there are also a couple of 124 models listed, but I 
don't have the TDM with me and so cannot look them up right now.

Curt: what is the build date on your 190D, and is it a 2.2?


Alex Chamberlain wrote:
>
>I find this hard to believe.  Do you mean that you can't force the
>transmission into first even by moving the lever to position 2 at a
>stop?  Why would D-B go to the trouble of making a special
>transmission without this feature?  It wouldn't affect fuel economy
>ratings, since the transmission would behave the same if left in D.
>
>> I assume this related to the shift gate being labelled D/3/2 instead of 
>> D/S/L.
>
>FWIW, both of the 722.x cars I have, an '86 300E and '87 300D, have
>the same shift gate, yet the 300D starts in first and the 300E in
>second (but can be forced to start in first by putting the lever in
>position 2 when stopped).  The shift gate is not a reliable indicator
>of transmission behavior.
>
>Alex


  
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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-07 Thread David Bruckmann
The TDM lists specific models with this "won't shift down" behaviour. Some 
123/124/201 models behave differently than others, and as you say the shift 
gate pattern is no particular indicator. Specifically, the 1984/85 190E 2.3 and 
190D 2.2 are listed in the TDM, but it presumably boils down to a specific 
build date that may or may not coincide with the model year. IIRC there are 
also a couple of 124 models listed, but I don't have the TDM with me and so 
cannot look them up right now.

Curt: what is the build date on your 190D, and is it a 2.2?


Alex Chamberlain wrote:
>
>I find this hard to believe.  Do you mean that you can't force the
>transmission into first even by moving the lever to position 2 at a
>stop?  Why would D-B go to the trouble of making a special
>transmission without this feature?  It wouldn't affect fuel economy
>ratings, since the transmission would behave the same if left in D.
>
>> I assume this related to the shift gate being labelled D/3/2 instead of 
>> D/S/L.
>
>FWIW, both of the 722.x cars I have, an '86 300E and '87 300D, have
>the same shift gate, yet the 300D starts in first and the 300E in
>second (but can be forced to start in first by putting the lever in
>position 2 when stopped).  The shift gate is not a reliable indicator
>of transmission behavior.
>
>Alex


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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-07 Thread Alex Chamberlain
On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 8:58 PM, David Bruckmann
 wrote:
> To Curt's point: oddly, the 1984/85 190E 2.3 (201.024) and 190D 2.2 
> (201.122), as well as a couple
> of Euro 123, 124 and 126 gasser models, start in second no matter the 
> position of the shift lever.
> The only way to get into first is indeed to use the pedal to kick down.

I find this hard to believe.  Do you mean that you can't force the
transmission into first even by moving the lever to position 2 at a
stop?  Why would D-B go to the trouble of making a special
transmission without this feature?  It wouldn't affect fuel economy
ratings, since the transmission would behave the same if left in D.

> I assume this related to the shift gate being labelled D/3/2 instead of D/S/L.

FWIW, both of the 722.x cars I have, an '86 300E and '87 300D, have
the same shift gate, yet the 300D starts in first and the 300E in
second (but can be forced to start in first by putting the lever in
position 2 when stopped).  The shift gate is not a reliable indicator
of transmission behavior.

Alex

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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-07 Thread Curt Raymond
Hmm, another slight bit of confusion... If I shift into L, then 2 then L again 
it'll go into first at a standstill...

It still needs adjustment, its hard to get it into first with the pedal.

-Curt

--- On Sun, 3/6/11, David Bruckmann  wrote:

From: David Bruckmann 
Subject: Re: California Version - 1985 300TD
To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: "Curt Raymond" 
Date: Sunday, March 6, 2011, 11:58 PM

Finally dredged up my TDM. Boiled down version:

Non-turbos 123.123 (240D), 123.130 (300D), 123.190 (300TD) up to 1979: start in 
second, no kickdown unless full throttle applied.

1980 to September 1984: 123.12x; 123.13x and 123.19x (turbo and non-turbo): 
idle in second, kickdown to first with the slightest application of the 
accelerator.

October 1984 (= 1985 model year) to end of series 123: idle in first and start 
in first without any application of accelerator pedal. They will also shift 
down into first when approaching a standstill (at about 13km/h).

1985 California version is basically identical to Federal except that the 1-2 
shift happens at a slightly (2-5km/h) lower speed, and the stall speed on the 
torque converter is higher (2400-2700 vs 2100-2300 Federal). Other shift 
behaviour is same as Federal.

Curt Raymond wrote:
>My '84 190D doesn't kick down unless I cram down on the go pedal, even then 
>sometimes theres a long delay before it kicks down.

To Curt's point: oddly, the 1984/85 190E 2.3 (201.024) and 190D 2.2 (201.122), 
as well as a couple of Euro 123, 124 and 126 gasser models, start in second no 
matter the position of the shift lever. The only way to get into first is 
indeed to use the pedal to kick down. I assume this related to the shift gate 
being labelled D/3/2 instead of D/S/L.

So Curt, no adjustments needed on your 190D!

D.



  
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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread David Bruckmann
Finally dredged up my TDM. Boiled down version:

Non-turbos 123.123 (240D), 123.130 (300D), 123.190 (300TD) up to 1979: start in 
second, no kickdown unless full throttle applied.

1980 to September 1984: 123.12x; 123.13x and 123.19x (turbo and non-turbo): 
idle in second, kickdown to first with the slightest application of the 
accelerator.

October 1984 (= 1985 model year) to end of series 123: idle in first and start 
in first without any application of accelerator pedal. They will also shift 
down into first when approaching a standstill (at about 13km/h).

1985 California version is basically identical to Federal except that the 1-2 
shift happens at a slightly (2-5km/h) lower speed, and the stall speed on the 
torque converter is higher (2400-2700 vs 2100-2300 Federal). Other shift 
behaviour is same as Federal.

Curt Raymond wrote:
>My '84 190D doesn't kick down unless I cram down on the go pedal, even then 
>sometimes theres a long delay before it kicks down.

To Curt's point: oddly, the 1984/85 190E 2.3 (201.024) and 190D 2.2 (201.122), 
as well as a couple of Euro 123, 124 and 126 gasser models, start in second no 
matter the position of the shift lever. The only way to get into first is 
indeed to use the pedal to kick down. I assume this related to the shift gate 
being labelled D/3/2 instead of D/S/L.

So Curt, no adjustments needed on your 190D!

D.

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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread David Bruckmann
Indeed, the pre-1980 (722.1) diesel transmissions started in second unless you 
mash the pedal to force a kickdown. That would have applied to the early 240D 
and non-turbo 300D up to and including 1979. The 126 diesels did the cable 
kickdown from the beginning of the series (1981). Not sure about the post-1980 
240D, but I'm pretty certain that all the 1980 and later 617s did it, including 
the 1980 non-turbo 300D and presumably the 1980 W116 diesel. 


On 2011-03-06 Jim Cathey wrote:

> The Albatross (240D) started exclusively in second, unless
> you either floored it or moved the shifter to L.  If you
> drove around in S (as most in-town driving is best done
> at) it was essentially a 2-speed tranny.
> 
> -- Jim

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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread andrew strasfogel
Well said, Mitch, although Jaime makes a  good case to leave well enough
alone

On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Jaime Kopchinski wrote:
>
>> Andrew,
>> What is wrong with the engine and transmission in the car?  I don't see
>> any
>> need to change anything unless the engine or transmission has some very
>> serious failure.  In fact, such a swap would decrease the value of the
>> car.
>>  I say leave it, maintain it and enjoy.
>>
>>
> The very serious failure is somebody putting a 300D engine in a 300TD and
> killing the SLS. This has devalued the car to the point where Andrew has
> decided that he must put it right, and he's been searching for a proper 1985
> TD engine/tranny ever since.
>
> Mitch.
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread andrew strasfogel
Ernest, your assessment is spot-on.  The improvements solely for the 1985
model year 300TD that you enumerated necessitate my searching for only that
year for an engine swap out.


On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 2:55 PM, ernest breakfield <
erne...@backyardengineering.org> wrote:

> Andrew,
>
>i think the present owner is confused.
>as i understand it (at least with our '85 300D), the injection pump and
> trans/torque converter are unique to the '85 vs earlier 300Ds, as may be the
> rear differential ratio. (i'm not sure if the rear dif is the same in the TD
> or not.)
>the '85 Calif version also has the Particulate Trap, so it also has a
> different set of manifolds and a different air filter setup than the Federal
> (49 state) '85s. i've never heard that there was any difference in what gear
> they start out in from anything else like them, but am admittedly not as
> familiar with all the rest.
>
>
> cheers!
> e
>
>
>
> On 05/Mar/11 20:23, andrew strasfogel wrote:
>
>> I have been looking for a 1985 300TD and checked one out today.  However,
>> it's the CA version 300TD with a catalytic converter and different air
>> cleaner.  The owner says that the transmission is also different than the
>> normal 1985s, and that the car starts in 2nd gear.  I was wondering
>> whether
>> I could swap out this engine with the 1985 300D engine in my wagon and
>> mate
>> it with that (normal) 1985 transmission without a lot of custom work.
>>  Good
>> idea or not?
>>
>> Anderw
>> 1983 30TD
>> 1985 300TD with 300D engine and regular rear suspension
>> ___
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>>
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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread ernest breakfield

Andrew,

i think the present owner is confused.
as i understand it (at least with our '85 300D), the injection pump 
and trans/torque converter are unique to the '85 vs earlier 300Ds, as 
may be the rear differential ratio. (i'm not sure if the rear dif is the 
same in the TD or not.)
the '85 Calif version also has the Particulate Trap, so it also has 
a different set of manifolds and a different air filter setup than the 
Federal (49 state) '85s. i've never heard that there was any difference 
in what gear they start out in from anything else like them, but am 
admittedly not as familiar with all the rest.



cheers!
e


On 05/Mar/11 20:23, andrew strasfogel wrote:

I have been looking for a 1985 300TD and checked one out today.  However,
it's the CA version 300TD with a catalytic converter and different air
cleaner.  The owner says that the transmission is also different than the
normal 1985s, and that the car starts in 2nd gear.  I was wondering whether
I could swap out this engine with the 1985 300D engine in my wagon and mate
it with that (normal) 1985 transmission without a lot of custom work.  Good
idea or not?

Anderw
1983 30TD
1985 300TD with 300D engine and regular rear suspension
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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread Jaime Kopchinski
Ah... I get it... so the CA 300TD would supply the engine for his current
300TD... its all clear now.  Carry on!

Jaime


On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> Jaime Kopchinski wrote:
>
>> Andrew,
>> What is wrong with the engine and transmission in the car?  I don't see
>> any
>> need to change anything unless the engine or transmission has some very
>> serious failure.  In fact, such a swap would decrease the value of the
>> car.
>>  I say leave it, maintain it and enjoy.
>>
>>
> The very serious failure is somebody putting a 300D engine in a 300TD and
> killing the SLS. This has devalued the car to the point where Andrew has
> decided that he must put it right, and he's been searching for a proper 1985
> TD engine/tranny ever since.
>
> Mitch.
>
>
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread Mitch Haley

Jaime Kopchinski wrote:

Andrew,
What is wrong with the engine and transmission in the car?  I don't see any
need to change anything unless the engine or transmission has some very
serious failure.  In fact, such a swap would decrease the value of the car.
 I say leave it, maintain it and enjoy.



The very serious failure is somebody putting a 300D engine in a 300TD and 
killing the SLS. This has devalued the car to the point where Andrew has decided 
that he must put it right, and he's been searching for a proper 1985 TD 
engine/tranny ever since.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread Curt Raymond
What about the "while you're at it" costs? Like, if you're going to have the 
head off anyway you might as well go through it and check everything and 
replace guides and whatnot. Then you might as well ream the ridge on the engine 
and maybe consider rings and hone...

Depending on how long you intend to keep such a car you might end up spending 
several thousand on it but on the other hand you'd end up with a great engine.

-Curt


Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 09:52:11 -0600
From: Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com>
To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

For my money, changing the head is easier/cheaper than changing the 
engine or engine/trans combo.
This is most likely borne out is flat rate manuals for inline 4,5,6 
cyl engines.  It also needs no engine hoist.

For the air cooled horizontally opposed VWs, and some other things, 
the engine removal is easier.

YMMV


  
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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread Jaime Kopchinski
Andrew,
What is wrong with the engine and transmission in the car?  I don't see any
need to change anything unless the engine or transmission has some very
serious failure.  In fact, such a swap would decrease the value of the car.
 I say leave it, maintain it and enjoy.

Jaime

On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 11:23 PM, andrew strasfogel wrote:

> I have been looking for a 1985 300TD and checked one out today.  However,
> it's the CA version 300TD with a catalytic converter and different air
> cleaner.  The owner says that the transmission is also different than the
> normal 1985s, and that the car starts in 2nd gear.  I was wondering whether
> I could swap out this engine with the 1985 300D engine in my wagon and mate
> it with that (normal) 1985 transmission without a lot of custom work.  Good
> idea or not?
>
> Anderw
> 1983 30TD
> 1985 300TD with 300D engine and regular rear suspension
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread Curt Raymond
My '84 190D doesn't kick down unless I cram down on the go pedal, even then 
sometimes theres a long delay before it kicks down.

In the spring I need to spend some quality time adjusting things I think...

-Curt

Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 21:38:11 -0800
From: David Bruckmann 
To: "mercedes@okiebenz.com" 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD
Message-ID: <42bf987e-d814-4457-b474-508e9b38d...@transcontinental.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=us-ascii

Whether
 it actually starts in 2nd or not may actually be a simple 
misunderstanding on the part of the PO. As far as I'm aware, all of the 
722.3 transmissions used in later 123 and 126 models stay in second when
 stopped UNTIL you touch the accelerator, whereupon they instantly kick 
down to first. You should be able to feel this behaviour by taking your 
foot off the brake at standstill and see what the creep is like vs 
having the shift lever in "L". And frankly, on most of them the 
modulator and transmission are worn enough that you can feel the "bump" 
when it kicks down to first. If it doesn't kick down, the cable probably
 just needs adjusting. 

It wouldn't surprise me that the PO 
wouldn't be aware of the above: I've met plenty of "Mercedes mechanics" 
who didn't know it either.

Personally I love the earlier 
transmissions that start in second and do NOT kick down unless forced, 
because every time it doesn't shift is one less bit of wear on that 
band/clutch pack. As you know, the 85 has a higher stall speed on the 
torque convertor, so it should be even more capable of starting in 
second without seeming sluggish. And you could always kick down if you 
needed the extra kick... But as I said, I suspect this is probably just 
the PO not understanding that the design is for it to be in second to 
prevent creep, but then to kick down immediately when you apply the 
accelerator... 

The TDM will clarify what the normal build was for that year, but I don't have 
it with me to check. 


  
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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread Mitch Haley

Dieselhead wrote:
For my money, changing the head is easier/cheaper than changing the 
engine or engine/trans combo.
This is most likely borne out is flat rate manuals for inline 4,5,6 cyl 
engines.  It also needs no engine hoist.



I'd use the hoist anyway. The head isn't light, especially if you leave the 
manifolds on.


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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread Dieselhead
For my money, changing the head is easier/cheaper than changing the 
engine or engine/trans combo.
This is most likely borne out is flat rate manuals for inline 4,5,6 
cyl engines.  It also needs no engine hoist.


For the air cooled horizontally opposed VWs, and some other things, 
the engine removal is easier.


YMMV



So which is more work 1)detaching the IP, manifold, and turbo before
swapping out the motor; or 2) simply replacing the head with a used one from
a 300TD that has the SLS pump?

On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 4:26 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:


 David Bruckmann wrote:


 Whether it actually starts in 2nd or not may actually be a simple
 misunderstanding on the part of the PO. As far as I'm aware, all of the
 722.3 transmissions used in later 123 and 126 models stay in second when
 stopped UNTIL you touch the accelerator, whereupon they instantly kick down
 to first. You should be able to feel this behaviour by taking your foot off
 the brake at standstill and see what the creep is like vs having the shift
 lever in "L". And frankly, on most of them the modulator and transmission
 are worn enough that you can feel the "bump" when it kicks down 
to first. If

 it doesn't kick down, the cable probably just needs adjusting.



 Do they use the kickdown solenoid for first gear start, like the W116
 300SD?
 If so, could be a bad kickdown solenoid.

 I doubt there's much to worry about. Just swap over the manifolds, turbo,
 etc from a 48 state car, maybe the IP too. At least I wouldn't want to keep
 the catalyst or those $80 air filters.

 Mitch.


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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread Mitch Haley

Walt Zarnoch wrote:

#2 is harder for sure, timing chain, head gasket, valve cover, etc...


But, on the other hand, there's shift linkage, driveshaft, etc for a 
engine/tranny swap. Manifolds gotta go either way, if one of the engines has the 
CA setup and you want to get rid of it.


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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread Walt Zarnoch
#2 is harder for sure, timing chain, head gasket, valve cover, etc...

Walt
On Mar 6, 2011 9:59 AM, "andrew strasfogel"  wrote:
> So which is more work 1)detaching the IP, manifold, and turbo before
> swapping out the motor; or 2) simply replacing the head with a used one
from
> a 300TD that has the SLS pump?
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 4:26 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:
>
>> David Bruckmann wrote:
>>
>>> Whether it actually starts in 2nd or not may actually be a simple
>>> misunderstanding on the part of the PO. As far as I'm aware, all of the
>>> 722.3 transmissions used in later 123 and 126 models stay in second when
>>> stopped UNTIL you touch the accelerator, whereupon they instantly kick
down
>>> to first. You should be able to feel this behaviour by taking your foot
off
>>> the brake at standstill and see what the creep is like vs having the
shift
>>> lever in "L". And frankly, on most of them the modulator and
transmission
>>> are worn enough that you can feel the "bump" when it kicks down to
first. If
>>> it doesn't kick down, the cable probably just needs adjusting.
>>>
>>
>> Do they use the kickdown solenoid for first gear start, like the W116
>> 300SD?
>> If so, could be a bad kickdown solenoid.
>>
>> I doubt there's much to worry about. Just swap over the manifolds, turbo,
>> etc from a 48 state car, maybe the IP too. At least I wouldn't want to
keep
>> the catalyst or those $80 air filters.
>>
>> Mitch.
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com
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>>
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>>
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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread Mitch Haley

roger...@comcast.net wrote:
Just to add some confusion...my 80 300SD 116 starts in first gear without using the kick down. 


78-79 power the kickdown through the overboost safety relay. It's supposed to 
sit in 2nd at a stnadstill with your foot on the brake, then drop into first as 
you take off. I always thought 1980 was the same, but I could be wrong. I'm not 
sure how you'd know, unless you have a technical manual, or monitor the voltage 
to the solenoid.
I suppose you could pull the fuse that powers the kickdown, and if it still 
starts in first without that fuse (I believe it also runs the instruments and 
the tail lamps) then you're right and I'm wrong.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread andrew strasfogel
So which is more work 1)detaching the IP, manifold, and turbo before
swapping out the motor; or 2) simply replacing the head with a used one from
a 300TD that has the SLS pump?

On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 4:26 AM, Mitch Haley  wrote:

> David Bruckmann wrote:
>
>> Whether it actually starts in 2nd or not may actually be a simple
>> misunderstanding on the part of the PO. As far as I'm aware, all of the
>> 722.3 transmissions used in later 123 and 126 models stay in second when
>> stopped UNTIL you touch the accelerator, whereupon they instantly kick down
>> to first. You should be able to feel this behaviour by taking your foot off
>> the brake at standstill and see what the creep is like vs having the shift
>> lever in "L". And frankly, on most of them the modulator and transmission
>> are worn enough that you can feel the "bump" when it kicks down to first. If
>> it doesn't kick down, the cable probably just needs adjusting.
>>
>
> Do they use the kickdown solenoid for first gear start, like the W116
> 300SD?
> If so, could be a bad kickdown solenoid.
>
> I doubt there's much to worry about. Just swap over the manifolds, turbo,
> etc from a 48 state car, maybe the IP too. At least I wouldn't want to keep
> the catalyst or those $80 air filters.
>
> Mitch.
>
>
> ___
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread Dimitri Seretakis
Wow. That's got to be a record for most miles on an original MB automatic 
transmission!

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 6, 2011, at 9:01 AM, roger...@comcast.net wrote:

Just to add some confusion...my 80 300SD 116 starts in first gear without using 
the kick down. I've had it for 14 years and that's how it has always worked. My 
83 300D also works the same. The only time the kick down works is if I floor 
the pedal...then it kicks down like I would expect it to. I'd hate to "lug" the 
engine by missing 1st gear for take off. As to wear, the 80 300SD has over 
410,000 miles on the original tranny. My Indie recently fixed a vacuum leak by 
replacing the plastic cap on the modulator valve and it shifts better and 
smoother than it has in years. 
Again, just some more confusion for the discussion. 
Best Wishes, 
Roger Hale 
Monroe, Ga. 
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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread rogerhga
Just to add some confusion...my 80 300SD 116 starts in first gear without using 
the kick down. I've had it for 14 years and that's how it has always worked. My 
83 300D also works the same. The only time the kick down works is if I floor 
the pedal...then it kicks down like I would expect it to. I'd hate to "lug" the 
engine by missing 1st gear for take off. As to wear, the 80 300SD has over 
410,000 miles on the original tranny. My Indie recently fixed a vacuum leak by 
replacing the plastic cap on the modulator valve and it shifts better and 
smoother than it has in years. 
Again, just some more confusion for the discussion. 
Best Wishes, 
Roger Hale 
Monroe, Ga. 
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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-06 Thread Mitch Haley

David Bruckmann wrote:

Whether it actually starts in 2nd or not may actually be a simple misunderstanding on the part of 
the PO. As far as I'm aware, all of the 722.3 transmissions used in later 123 and 126 models stay 
in second when stopped UNTIL you touch the accelerator, whereupon they instantly kick down to 
first. You should be able to feel this behaviour by taking your foot off the brake at standstill 
and see what the creep is like vs having the shift lever in "L". And frankly, on most of 
them the modulator and transmission are worn enough that you can feel the "bump" when it 
kicks down to first. If it doesn't kick down, the cable probably just needs adjusting.


Do they use the kickdown solenoid for first gear start, like the W116 300SD?
If so, could be a bad kickdown solenoid.

I doubt there's much to worry about. Just swap over the manifolds, turbo, etc 
from a 48 state car, maybe the IP too. At least I wouldn't want to keep the 
catalyst or those $80 air filters.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-05 Thread David Bruckmann
Whether it actually starts in 2nd or not may actually be a simple 
misunderstanding on the part of the PO. As far as I'm aware, all of the 722.3 
transmissions used in later 123 and 126 models stay in second when stopped 
UNTIL you touch the accelerator, whereupon they instantly kick down to first. 
You should be able to feel this behaviour by taking your foot off the brake at 
standstill and see what the creep is like vs having the shift lever in "L". And 
frankly, on most of them the modulator and transmission are worn enough that 
you can feel the "bump" when it kicks down to first. If it doesn't kick down, 
the cable probably just needs adjusting. 

It wouldn't surprise me that the PO wouldn't be aware of the above: I've met 
plenty of "Mercedes mechanics" who didn't know it either.

Personally I love the earlier transmissions that start in second and do NOT 
kick down unless forced, because every time it doesn't shift is one less bit of 
wear on that band/clutch pack. As you know, the 85 has a higher stall speed on 
the torque convertor, so it should be even more capable of starting in second 
without seeming sluggish. And you could always kick down if you needed the 
extra kick... But as I said, I suspect this is probably just the PO not 
understanding that the design is for it to be in second to prevent creep, but 
then to kick down immediately when you apply the accelerator... 

The TDM will clarify what the normal build was for that year, but I don't have 
it with me to check. 

Andrew Strasfogel wrote:

> 
> I have been looking for a 1985 300TD and checked one out today.  However,
> it's the CA version 300TD with a catalytic converter and different air
> cleaner.  The owner says that the transmission is also different than the
> normal 1985s, and that the car starts in 2nd gear.  I was wondering whether
> I could swap out this engine with the 1985 300D engine in my wagon and mate
> it with that (normal) 1985 transmission without a lot of custom work.  Good
> idea or not?
> 
> Anderw
> 1983 30TD
> 1985 300TD with 300D engine and regular rear suspension
> 

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Re: [MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-05 Thread Walt Zarnoch
Should be an easy swap, the trans will bolt right up with no issues.

There might be subtle "gotcha!" Things I don't know about though, so wait
for others to chime in.

Walt
On Mar 5, 2011 11:23 PM, "andrew strasfogel"  wrote:
> I have been looking for a 1985 300TD and checked one out today. However,
> it's the CA version 300TD with a catalytic converter and different air
> cleaner. The owner says that the transmission is also different than the
> normal 1985s, and that the car starts in 2nd gear. I was wondering whether
> I could swap out this engine with the 1985 300D engine in my wagon and
mate
> it with that (normal) 1985 transmission without a lot of custom work. Good
> idea or not?
>
> Anderw
> 1983 30TD
> 1985 300TD with 300D engine and regular rear suspension
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[MBZ] California Version - 1985 300TD

2011-03-05 Thread andrew strasfogel
I have been looking for a 1985 300TD and checked one out today.  However,
it's the CA version 300TD with a catalytic converter and different air
cleaner.  The owner says that the transmission is also different than the
normal 1985s, and that the car starts in 2nd gear.  I was wondering whether
I could swap out this engine with the 1985 300D engine in my wagon and mate
it with that (normal) 1985 transmission without a lot of custom work.  Good
idea or not?

Anderw
1983 30TD
1985 300TD with 300D engine and regular rear suspension
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