Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 14:22:46 -0500 Dan Penoff via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Hee. Having been a trainer, I can really relate to this.

I ran into it when I was a TA for an undergraduate physics lab class.
At one point I got tired of students writing their lab report around
the (sloppy and confusing!) raw data they took and said I would start
grading by looking for the raw data and grading everything after that,
which meant I ignored everything before the raw data, even if that
included abstract, introduction, et al.

Even after telling them multiple times, you would (not?) believe the howl
I got from some students when they received their lab books back.


Craig


> 
> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 2:19 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> > 
> > I get one or two students in every class that dont listen and end up
> > with no GUI. "So it's like I told you..."
> > 
> > Curt
> > 
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> > 
> > On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:36 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> >  wrote: I know, it’s just that I find it
> > annoying. That and if you’re a relative newbie and don’t know to
> > avoid this during setup, you’re surprised by a machine and interface
> > you didn’t expect.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

The other one, in VM, building a Microsoft cluster with 2 members you need a 
total of 4 drives, 2 get shared between the members. Somebody always ends up 
making 6 drives, no shares and can't figure out why the cluster fails...Took me 
hours to figure out what they had done the first time I saw it...
Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 2:23 PM, Dan Penoff via 
Mercedes wrote:   Hee. Having been a trainer, I can 
really relate to this.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 2:19 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> I get one or two students in every class that dont listen and end up with no 
> GUI. "So it's like I told you..."
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:36 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> I know, it’s just that I find it annoying. That and if you’re a relative 
> newbie and don’t know to avoid this during setup, you’re surprised by a 
> machine and interface you didn’t expect.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 10:55 AM, Curt Raymond  > > wrote:
> > 
> > 16 and 19 both ask during install.
> > 
> > Curt
> > 
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> >  >  
> > >
> > On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 6:42 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> > The thing I didn’t care for in the later Windows Server products was that 
> > the “base” install is a headless design, CLI only.
> > 
> > -D
> > 
> > > On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
> > > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> > > >> wrote:
> > > 
> > > For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
> > > windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, 
> > > no searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
> > > Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 
> > > seems mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, 
> > > minimal GUI, more like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was 
> > > like Win8. Too bad its very expensive although you could use the free 
> > > trial for half a year at a time.
> > > 
> > > -Curt
> > > 
> > >    On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via 
> > >Mercedes mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> > >>> wrote:  
> > > 
> > > On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
> > >>  I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
> > >> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
> > >> arts
> > >> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.
> > > 
> > > Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
> > > homescreen, except I have to hit
> > > some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
> > > computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
> > > office March 23.
> > > 
> > > ___
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> > >  > > >
> > > 
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> > >  > > >
> > > 
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> > >  > >  >
> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ___
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> > > 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Hee. Having been a trainer, I can really relate to this.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 2:19 PM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> I get one or two students in every class that dont listen and end up with no 
> GUI. "So it's like I told you..."
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:36 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> I know, it’s just that I find it annoying. That and if you’re a relative 
> newbie and don’t know to avoid this during setup, you’re surprised by a 
> machine and interface you didn’t expect.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 10:55 AM, Curt Raymond  > > wrote:
> > 
> > 16 and 19 both ask during install.
> > 
> > Curt
> > 
> > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> >  >  
> > >
> > On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 6:42 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> > The thing I didn’t care for in the later Windows Server products was that 
> > the “base” install is a headless design, CLI only.
> > 
> > -D
> > 
> > > On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
> > > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> > > >> wrote:
> > > 
> > > For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
> > > windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, 
> > > no searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
> > > Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 
> > > seems mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, 
> > > minimal GUI, more like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was 
> > > like Win8. Too bad its very expensive although you could use the free 
> > > trial for half a year at a time.
> > > 
> > > -Curt
> > > 
> > >On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via 
> > > Mercedes mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> 
> > > >> wrote:  
> > > 
> > > On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
> > >>  I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
> > >> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
> > >> arts
> > >> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.
> > > 
> > > Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
> > > homescreen, except I have to hit
> > > some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
> > > computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
> > > office March 23.
> > > 
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com  
> > >  > > >
> > > 
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/  
> > >  > > >
> > > 
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com  
> > >  > >  >
> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com  
> > >  > > >
> > > 
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/  
> > >  > > >
> > > 
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> > >  > >  >
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
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> > 

Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I get one or two students in every class that dont listen and end up with no 
GUI. "So it's like I told you..."
Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 11:36 AM, Dan Penoff via 
Mercedes wrote:   I know, it’s just that I find it 
annoying. That and if you’re a relative newbie and don’t know to avoid this 
during setup, you’re surprised by a machine and interface you didn’t expect.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 10:55 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> 16 and 19 both ask during install.
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 6:42 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> The thing I didn’t care for in the later Windows Server products was that the 
> “base” install is a headless design, CLI only.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
> > windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, no 
> > searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
> > Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 
> > seems mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, minimal 
> > GUI, more like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was like Win8. 
> > Too bad its very expensive although you could use the free trial for half a 
> > year at a time.
> > 
> > -Curt
> > 
> >    On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> >mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:  
> > 
> > On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
> >>  I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
> >> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
> >> arts
> >> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.
> > 
> > Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
> > homescreen, except I have to hit
> > some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
> > computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
> > office March 23.
> > 
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com 
> > 
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ 
> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com 
> > 
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> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I know, it’s just that I find it annoying. That and if you’re a relative newbie 
and don’t know to avoid this during setup, you’re surprised by a machine and 
interface you didn’t expect.

-D

> On Dec 4, 2020, at 10:55 AM, Curt Raymond  wrote:
> 
> 16 and 19 both ask during install.
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 6:42 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes
>  wrote:
> The thing I didn’t care for in the later Windows Server products was that the 
> “base” install is a headless design, CLI only.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
> > windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, no 
> > searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
> > Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 
> > seems mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, minimal 
> > GUI, more like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was like Win8. 
> > Too bad its very expensive although you could use the free trial for half a 
> > year at a time.
> > 
> > -Curt
> > 
> >On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> > mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:  
> > 
> > On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
> >>  I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
> >> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
> >> arts
> >> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.
> > 
> > Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
> > homescreen, except I have to hit
> > some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
> > computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
> > office March 23.
> > 
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com 
> > 
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ 
> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com 
> > 
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ 
> > 
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> 
> 

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

16 and 19 both ask during install.
Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 6:42 AM, Dan Penoff via 
Mercedes wrote:   The thing I didn’t care for in the 
later Windows Server products was that the “base” install is a headless design, 
CLI only.

-D

> On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
> windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, no 
> searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
> Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 seems 
> mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, minimal GUI, 
> more like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was like Win8. Too 
> bad its very expensive although you could use the free trial for half a year 
> at a time.
> 
> -Curt
> 
>    On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> wrote:  
> 
> On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
>>  I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
>> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
>> arts
>> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.
> 
> Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
> homescreen, except I have to hit
> some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
> computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
> office March 23.
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

On 2020-12-04 08:14, Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote:

But the OS is not Winders.

Operating System = Arch Linux 5.9.9-arch1-1 x86_64 in the first test 
you

linked to.


Check out the OS on this one.
Somehow I don't think that's a Ryzen 7 CPU
https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5136824

Was this what you were looking for?
https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5139402

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

But the OS is not Winders.

Operating System = Arch Linux 5.9.9-arch1-1 x86_64 in the first test you
linked to.
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 7:25 AM Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> In theory, that's close to a low wattage Ryzen 7 in a laptop.
> https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5031421
>
> Or an i7:
> https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5137449
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

On 2020-12-04 06:44, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

https://www.cultofmac.com/729236/m1-mac-mini-runs-windows-10-enormously-faster-than-microsoft-surface-pro-x/


In theory, that's close to a low wattage Ryzen 7 in a laptop.
https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5031421

Or an i7:
https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5137449

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

https://www.cultofmac.com/729236/m1-mac-mini-runs-windows-10-enormously-faster-than-microsoft-surface-pro-x/?utm_campaign=Cult%20of%20Mac%20Today_medium=email_source=Revue%20newsletter
 


-D


> On Dec 4, 2020, at 6:42 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> The thing I didn’t care for in the later Windows Server products was that the 
> “base” install is a headless design, CLI only.
> 
> -D
> 
>> On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
>> windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, no 
>> searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
>> Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 
>> seems mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, minimal 
>> GUI, more like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was like Win8. 
>> Too bad its very expensive although you could use the free trial for half a 
>> year at a time.
>> 
>> -Curt
>> 
>>   On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:  
>> 
>> On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
>>>  I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
>>> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
>>> arts
>>> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.
>> 
>> Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
>> homescreen, except I have to hit
>> some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
>> computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
>> office March 23.
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
>> 
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>> http://www.okiebenz.com
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

The thing I didn’t care for in the later Windows Server products was that the 
“base” install is a headless design, CLI only.

-D

> On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
> windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, no 
> searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
> Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 seems 
> mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, minimal GUI, 
> more like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was like Win8. Too 
> bad its very expensive although you could use the free trial for half a year 
> at a time.
> 
> -Curt
> 
>On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
>  wrote:  
> 
> On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
>>   I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
>> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
>> arts
>> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.
> 
> Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
> homescreen, except I have to hit
> some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
> computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
> office March 23.
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Scott Ritchey via Mercedes  writes:

> Windows Classic Shell can provide a very W2K/XP interface:
> http://www.classicshell.net/downloads/

Seems that's a dormant project now, but work has continued at
https://github.com/Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menu

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 For Windows 10 I've given up on using menus for anything. I just hit the 
windows key and start typing what I want. I've gotta say its not so bad, no 
searching through menus, just let Windows find it for me.
Actually my favorite OS right now is Windows Server 2016, actually 2019 seems 
mostly the same from a UI perspective. Very old school look, minimal GUI, more 
like WinXP than Win10. Much better than 2012 which was like Win8. Too bad its 
very expensive although you could use the free trial for half a year at a time.

-Curt

On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:57:21 PM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:
>  I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
> AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
> arts
> clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.

Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
homescreen, except I have to hit
some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
office March 23.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Clay Monroe via Mercedes  writes:

> I am thinking that with ARM chips, once the OS goes native, that
> spells the death of hackintosh.

Agree. MacOS will continue to work on Intel for a while of course, and
continue to get updates and new releases, until the Intel Macs "age out"
of their supported lifetime. Then they'll be abandonded, like the
PowerPC Macs were.

Allan


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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Clay Monroe via Mercedes]

App store has Parallels and other VM software, so probably able to run what you 
like.  I am thinking that with ARM chips, once the OS goes native, that spells 
the death of hackintosh.  Only able to run the OS on proprietary hardware on a 
chip.  I did contemplate the 16” MacBook Pro, but wanted more than the specs 
seemed to allow for ram and storage.

Clay


inter urinas et faeces nascimur

> On Dec 3, 2020, at 8:35 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
>> The inability to emulate Windows is a total showstopper.
> 
> How would an ARM-based Mac be any less capable than a 68K or PowerPC-based 
> Mac?
> Windows was available for those via emulation, after suitable product 
> development delays.
> You think VMware is going to abandon that market segment in a fit of pique?
> 
> -- Jim
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Good question. She doesn't do much with it that isn't in a web browser. I bet 
if I put the same desktop wallpaper and Chrome shortcut she wouldn't know...

Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 2:29 PM, Craig via Mercedes 
wrote:   On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 18:52:10 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Heck I should probably drop an SSD in there and upgrade it to Win10 at
> the same time, it'll be like a whole new machine.

How much retraining will she have to do to go from Win8.1 to Win10?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Thu, 03 Dec 2020 14:53:32 -0500 Mitch Haley via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Getting my Mom a Ryzen 7 system that I probably can't run Win7 on due
> to lack of drivers.

I ran Win7 on our "new" Ryzen 3 system on a BioStar motherboard and found
everything worked except the USB connectors. I contacted the factory and
was told they had a program which would add the correct drivers to an
Win7 install on a pen drive. I tried that and went around and around with
them (I'm sure the language difference did not help) with my saying it
did not work and their saying it did. Perhaps a different motherboard
company (ASUS? ASRock?) would be different.

I finally gave up and installed CentOS 7 (with Gnome3) and got working
USB ports, but a lot of other things I do not like about Gnome3.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

On 2020-12-03 15:18, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes wrote:

 I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.
AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal 
arts

clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.


Now that you mention it, I run everything at work off a Win10 Desktop 
homescreen, except I have to hit
some key combo like CTRL-I to get a power button. I just got that 
computer at the end of January, and haven't seen it since we closed the 
office March 23.


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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Windows Classic Shell can provide a very W2K/XP interface:
http://www.classicshell.net/downloads/

It's all I use.  I never saw any benefit to those stupid boxes in Win10.  
AND it's not worth my time to learn a new GUI every time some liberal arts
clown at Micro$oft has a wild hair.


-Original Message-
From: Mercedes On Behalf Of Allan Streib via Mercedes
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 3:01 PM
To: Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
Cc: Allan Streib 
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

Mitch Haley via Mercedes  writes:

> Does Win10 have a Classic Mode to make the switch more transparent?

I don't use Windows much these days, but as far as I know Windows 10 does
not have a "classic" mode built-in. I believe there are themes you can find
(buy?) that approximate the look and feel of Windows 7.

My favorite Windows from a UI standpoint was Windows 2000 Professional.
Clean, responsive, minimal lipstick and eye candy.

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Mitch Haley via Mercedes  writes:

> Does Win10 have a Classic Mode to make the switch more transparent?

I don't use Windows much these days, but as far as I know Windows 10
does not have a "classic" mode built-in. I believe there are themes you
can find (buy?) that approximate the look and feel of Windows 7.

My favorite Windows from a UI standpoint was Windows 2000
Professional. Clean, responsive, minimal lipstick and eye candy.

Allan

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[OK Don via Mercedes]

Almost transparent - you can boot into desktop mode instead of those funky
boxes all over the screen. My wife (totally non-techy) made the transition
with very little effort. It's been too long ago to remember how you do that
though ... YMMV

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 1:54 PM Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> On 2020-12-03 14:28, Craig via Mercedes wrote:
> > On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 18:52:10 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
> >  wrote:
> >
> >> Heck I should probably drop an SSD in there and upgrade it to Win10 at
> >> the same time, it'll be like a whole new machine.
> >
> > How much retraining will she have to do to go from Win8.1 to Win10?
>
> Getting my Mom a Ryzen 7 system that I probably can't run Win7 on due to
> lack of drivers.
> Does Win10 have a Classic Mode to make the switch more transparent?
>
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-- 
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

“Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”  Wernher
Von Braun
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

On 2020-12-03 14:28, Craig via Mercedes wrote:

On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 18:52:10 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 wrote:


Heck I should probably drop an SSD in there and upgrade it to Win10 at
the same time, it'll be like a whole new machine.


How much retraining will she have to do to go from Win8.1 to Win10?


Getting my Mom a Ryzen 7 system that I probably can't run Win7 on due to 
lack of drivers.

Does Win10 have a Classic Mode to make the switch more transparent?

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

On 2020-12-03 14:11, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote:
Microsoft also has Windows for the ARM architecture (Surface Pro). 
Would

not be beyond belief if they get that ported to the Apple silicon.


I was only loosely familiar with M$ $urface products with Intel CPUs, 
never really looked hard at them because the prices stopped me cold.


This older article claims 2 Tflops, seems to run decent on native 
software, and emulates Intel x86 like, well, a SnapDragon.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Microsoft-SQ1-SoC.436918.0.html

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Just for giggles (since I haven't done it for a couple years) I went and played 
with the Apple and HP sites. The prices you can spec those machines out to is 
amazing. The HP Z8 with 56 cores (2x processors at 28 cores each) with 1.5TB of 
RAM is over $50,000.
Both Apple and HP support video cards in the $10,000+ range. 

It must be neat to have that kind of money...
-Curt

On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 2:11:55 PM EST, Allan Streib via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Microsoft also has Windows for the ARM architecture (Surface Pro). Would
not be beyond belief if they get that ported to the Apple silicon.

Apple gives away their OS. They don't make any money on it, they make
money on hardware and the app store. So IMO they don't really care if
people want to run something else. They aren't going to go out of their
way to support it maybe, but I doubt they'll stop it. If it sells a few
percent more machines it's a win for them.

Efforts are underway to port Linux and other OSes to the new Macs, which
reportedly blow Intel out of the water on performance and power use.

Allan


Jim Cathey via Mercedes  writes:

>> The inability to emulate Windows is a total showstopper.
>
> How would an ARM-based Mac be any less capable than a 68K or
> PowerPC-based Mac?  Windows was available for those via emulation,
> after suitable product development delays.  You think VMware is going
> to abandon that market segment in a fit of pique?
>
> -- Jim

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Thu, 3 Dec 2020 18:52:10 + (UTC) Curt Raymond via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Heck I should probably drop an SSD in there and upgrade it to Win10 at
> the same time, it'll be like a whole new machine.

How much retraining will she have to do to go from Win8.1 to Win10?


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 That said my last Macbook lasted 4 years almost exactly, I think it was 
murdered by my road warrior life at that point. An equivalent HP or Dell would 
have been $1000 cheaper and, based on previous experience lasted at least as 
long.
If you don't resell then the resale value doesn't mean much.

I've actually still got the first HP laptop this employer gave me back in 2005. 
It was used (none too gently) when I got it and it still works fine although 
the battery is totally croaked. I keep it around for an older video editing 
application I really like that only runs in WinXP which it is totally adequate 
for.That machine has done a LOT of work both for my employer and side work for 
me, even after it was "retired". Its also the best machine I've ever had for my 
old Agfa scanner.
-Curt

On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 2:03:24 PM EST, Jim Cathey 
 wrote:  
 
 You have to treat your computer expenses like you might treat
automotive expenses.  It's not how much it costs, it's how much
it costs _you_, net, versus service and service life.

My Dodge diesel cost around $4000 more than a gasser when new.
It's worth more than $4000 more than that gasser, now.  So, the extra
cost wasn't a cost at all.  I'll get it all back on resale.

Mac laptops actually have a resale value, and they tend to have
service lives (except for the lemons) longer than the Wintel equivalents.

-- Jim

  
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Microsoft also has Windows for the ARM architecture (Surface Pro). Would
not be beyond belief if they get that ported to the Apple silicon.

Apple gives away their OS. They don't make any money on it, they make
money on hardware and the app store. So IMO they don't really care if
people want to run something else. They aren't going to go out of their
way to support it maybe, but I doubt they'll stop it. If it sells a few
percent more machines it's a win for them.

Efforts are underway to port Linux and other OSes to the new Macs, which
reportedly blow Intel out of the water on performance and power use.

Allan


Jim Cathey via Mercedes  writes:

>> The inability to emulate Windows is a total showstopper.
>
> How would an ARM-based Mac be any less capable than a 68K or
> PowerPC-based Mac?  Windows was available for those via emulation,
> after suitable product development delays.  You think VMware is going
> to abandon that market segment in a fit of pique?
>
> -- Jim

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 IIRC there is some sort of Windows available on Raspberry pi although its a 
bit of a hack, so Microsoft has some code that will run on ARM anyway.
I hate what Apple has done to their laptops, their charge to be the thinnest, 
lightest, "coolest" (and I don't mean temperature), has given us less capable 
hardware. Until I know for sure they're making something better I'm not giving 
them any money again.
Example: My touchbar macbook was slower out of the box than the retina Macbook 
it replaced. The keyboard sucks and the touchbar is a waste of time. Battery 
life is worse and it doesn't have any *&%#! ports. For doing any real work it 
sucks. Apple has burned me as a customer and it'll take a lot to earn me back.
-Curt

On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 1:59:09 PM EST, Jim Cathey via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Apple chose the ARM in the first place (Newton) because it was the clear win in
MIPS/mW, which meant the best possible battery life.  That is still an 
operative factor.
Phones live and die on battery life, are there now any non-ARM phones?

MS has run Windows on non-Intel processors before, it's entirely possible
that there may be an ARM-based Windows product line in the future, if battery
life is sufficiently improved by doing so.  (Not saying it would be.)  Apple 
has a
sufficient market share that other parts of the market might react to this move.
Even Microsoft, though that seems somewhat doubtful.

My Wintel needs were _never_ driven by performance.  Just connectivity.
So what if Word runs kinda crappy on my Mac.  I don't live there, i do my work
in native world, and mostly only do conversions (and cross-compilation) in 
Wintel
space.  I wouldn't care if an ARMac ran it slower than the current stuff does.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

You have to treat your computer expenses like you might treat
automotive expenses.  It's not how much it costs, it's how much
it costs _you_, net, versus service and service life.

My Dodge diesel cost around $4000 more than a gasser when new.
It's worth more than $4000 more than that gasser, now.  So, the extra
cost wasn't a cost at all.  I'll get it all back on resale.

Mac laptops actually have a resale value, and they tend to have
service lives (except for the lemons) longer than the Wintel equivalents.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

Apple chose the ARM in the first place (Newton) because it was the clear win in
MIPS/mW, which meant the best possible battery life.  That is still an 
operative factor.
Phones live and die on battery life, are there now any non-ARM phones?

MS has run Windows on non-Intel processors before, it's entirely possible
that there may be an ARM-based Windows product line in the future, if battery
life is sufficiently improved by doing so.  (Not saying it would be.)  Apple 
has a
sufficient market share that other parts of the market might react to this move.
Even Microsoft, though that seems somewhat doubtful.

My Wintel needs were _never_ driven by performance.  Just connectivity.
So what if Word runs kinda crappy on my Mac.  I don't live there, i do my work
in native world, and mostly only do conversions (and cross-compilation) in 
Wintel
space.  I wouldn't care if an ARMac ran it slower than the current stuff does.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I've had Windows running in VirtualBox on a Mac for going on 8 years now, it 
works pretty well. Newer versions of VirtualBox are better. I suspect VMWare 
would be better still but VB is free...
I spent last weekend working on my parent's Win8 box. Yes, Win8 flat. It took 
some figuring but I finally found out how to update it to 8.1 which greatly 
improved stability.
Also I think the "hybrid shutdown" BS had screwed them, when I first powered it 
up it couldn't get out of its own way, after a reboot it was mostly fine, after 
uninstalling Norton AV it was pretty good.
Norton was a strange one, it claimed to be expired but was eating up 30+% of 
the CPU and 50+% of the disk.
The machine is a dual core processor with 4GB of RAM. Looks like I can make it 
quad core and 16GB for about $150. That and the service call will be a good 
start to a birthday present for my mom. Heck I should probably drop an SSD in 
there and upgrade it to Win10 at the same time, it'll be like a whole new 
machine.

-Curt

On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 1:45:57 PM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 On 2020-12-03 13:21, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
> I meant to say Virtualize, of course you can emulate.
> While I was writing the previous message I was thinking "I suppose
> emulation is an option..."

 From what I understand, running x86 stuff on Apple APUs is horrible, but 
maybe not quite as horrible as doing it on SnapDragon. I just bought a 
$207 laptop with Win10 Home (not S) and 8GB RAM on an Athlon 3150, so 
I'm not too interested in $800 versions with cell phone processors, even 
if the phone based stuff has more computations per Watt.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

On 2020-12-03 13:21, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

I meant to say Virtualize, of course you can emulate.
While I was writing the previous message I was thinking "I suppose
emulation is an option..."


From what I understand, running x86 stuff on Apple APUs is horrible, but 
maybe not quite as horrible as doing it on SnapDragon. I just bought a 
$207 laptop with Win10 Home (not S) and 8GB RAM on an Athlon 3150, so 
I'm not too interested in $800 versions with cell phone processors, even 
if the phone based stuff has more computations per Watt.


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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 I meant to say Virtualize, of course you can emulate.
While I was writing the previous message I was thinking "I suppose emulation is 
an option..."
I think the days of virtualization on Mac are numbered for a number of reasons, 
incompatible hardware being one of them. The Mac OS not supporting (in fact 
banning) is another.

-Curt

On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 12:35:51 PM EST, Jim Cathey 
 wrote:  
 
 > The inability to emulate Windows is a total showstopper.

How would an ARM-based Mac be any less capable than a 68K or PowerPC-based Mac?
Windows was available for those via emulation, after suitable product 
development delays.
You think VMware is going to abandon that market segment in a fit of pique?

-- Jim
  
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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> The inability to emulate Windows is a total showstopper.

How would an ARM-based Mac be any less capable than a 68K or PowerPC-based Mac?
Windows was available for those via emulation, after suitable product 
development delays.
You think VMware is going to abandon that market segment in a fit of pique?

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 They're never getting any more of my money. The inability to emulate Windows 
is a total showstopper.
-Curt

On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 9:50:41 AM EST, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-s-ARM-based-MacBook-Air-will-reputedly-launch-at-US-799-with-the-MacBook-Pro-13-priced-at-US-1-099.501810.0.html

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[MBZ] OT: $800 MacBook with iPhone CPU?

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-s-ARM-based-MacBook-Air-will-reputedly-launch-at-US-799-with-the-MacBook-Pro-13-priced-at-US-1-099.501810.0.html

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