Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos or Cars?
On 05/09/2012 6:25 PM, Dan Penoff wrote: For what it's worth, this is a re-write regarding old cars and what defines them. Do take the in context - some of these guys are rebuilding cars that cost more than a new piano... It is a matter of all of the above. Age takes its toll, especially on sheet metal, leather, MB tex, horsehair stuffing, etc. All of those things are subject to deterioration over time, whether being used (driven) or not, and they are the vast majority of the parts which make up a car. There comes a point when they are just past their useful life. Sometimes they can be nudged along for awhile, but the clock is always ticking. The general rule of thumb for the useful life of a car, from one of the great builders, is about twenty years. It is about then that a rebuild is necessary. I would suggest that you do searches on the topics of rebuilding, restoring, and refurbishing. The terms have very different meanings. These topics have been well covered at various forum sites. Often inexperienced (1st. time) caro owners are unaware of maintenance other than regular tuning. Within the 20 year life, depending on usage, one should expect multiple new sets of tires, brakes and possibly a new set of shocks. Again based on use, about every five years a car will need a thorough Italian tuneup, tires and battery. These are not hard and fast rules, but a guide for a well maintained car. What it all boils down to is that cars over 20 years old will need considerable work if they have not had a total rebuild within about the last 15 years or so. Also, there are only a handful of manufacturer's products which are worth the investment. That is why you hear run away or OMG when a newcomer asks about a 1973 GM product, in lovely condition, built in the USA, by Union employees, who also went on strike regularly. The original owner was always a collector and most likely the good as new car is discovered on Craigslist. It just goes with the territory. The lesson has been learned over and over again. Of the builders, here's the handy list: Mercedes Benz - diesel and maybe gas There will probably be many responses with the you forgots and the how 'bouts. I didn't forget them, I chose to forget them for reason. There are endless possibilities, but as a beginner, I would suggest that you play it a bit safe and stay with the known commodities. Cars which were built to last, have proven that they do last. But, as you see, it is a very short list and even those need proper maintenance throughout their various incarnations by means of rebuilding. It all boils down to an old car is still an old car. They wear out. Many can be brought back to life. All it takes is $$$. You would be doing yourself a favor if you were looking in the direction of quality car and check Mercedes diesels from the 1970's and early 80's. Take it for what it's worth, but this is coming from guys who make their livings doing this. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 5:08 PM, Dan Penoff wrote: When I get home tonight I'll go into detail. I have a LOT of notes from my discussions with these guys. It's pretty fascinating to me... Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
When I was a little kid, maybe 5 or 6, the woman I stayed with after school bought a piano, or had it, I can't remember, for her daughter who was a year older than me. I remember one day the piano tuner coming over to tune the thing, and the guy was blind. His wife would drop him off, he would be directed to the piano, and he would do his thing by feel and sound. I remember watching him, and he knew I was watching somehow, and he would occasionally say something to me, or ask me to do something like grab a tool. The guy initially creeped me out because at that age I had never seen a blind person, and just figured they had to be creepy because in the movies the blind person was always the weird character, and the guy looked creepy too because of his eyes and how they were. Plus he was some unknown adult person, which when you are that age just creep you out anyway. After a short while I sorta forgot about the blind aspect and was fascinated watching him do his work on the piano, and the fact that he included me, however simply, in his work was way cool to me. He was masterful at the work, and put his fingers right on the keys and the tuning tools without even seeing them. Very cool. His wife came back about the time he was finishing, she collected the money and off they went. Later on I remember the sitter and my mother talking about it, and it turned out that guy was like the best tuner in town, in high demand. I think back to things like that, being a part of work like that, stuff my dad did on the car or lawnmower and such, and even that simple stuff must have been a trigger to my interest now in fixing and building things. I learned 2 things that day -- first that blind people were not creepy, and that being blind seemed to be no impediment to doing something really cool. And I guess if you are blind you better have someone else with you to make sure someone does not rip you off giving you the wrong money. That last part I might have figured out later, but anyway... --R On 9/5/12 9:57 PM, Mountain Man wrote: Dan wrote: Take it for what it's worth, but this is coming from guys who make their livings doing this. Very few people make good living as piano technicians. It is very tough to obtain and keep customers. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
Cool story. We have a neighbor who has a son the same age as my oldest son that has been blind since birth. He's a really cool kid (man, really, since he is now in his early 20s) who is perfectly fine with his blindness. His folks cut him no slack - I was over there the other night and he was bitching about having to take the trash out to the curb, for example. They expect no less from him than they would from a sighted child. He used to come in to classes in school and talk about his blindness to kids of all ages. It was fun to sit in and hear the discussions and questions. He's cool enough with his blindness that he regularly makes Helen Keller jokes Dan On Sep 6, 2012, at 10:49 AM, Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net wrote: When I was a little kid, maybe 5 or 6, the woman I stayed with after school bought a piano, or had it, I can't remember, for her daughter who was a year older than me. I remember one day the piano tuner coming over to tune the thing, and the guy was blind. His wife would drop him off, he would be directed to the piano, and he would do his thing by feel and sound. I remember watching him, and he knew I was watching somehow, and he would occasionally say something to me, or ask me to do something like grab a tool. The guy initially creeped me out because at that age I had never seen a blind person, and just figured they had to be creepy because in the movies the blind person was always the weird character, and the guy looked creepy too because of his eyes and how they were. Plus he was some unknown adult person, which when you are that age just creep you out anyway. After a short while I sorta forgot about the blind aspect and was fascinated watching him do his work on the piano, and the fact that he included me, however simply, in his work was way cool to me. He was masterful at the work, and put his fingers right on the keys and the tuning tools without even seeing them. Very cool. His wife came back about the time he was finishing, she collected the money and off they went. Later on I remember the sitter and my mother talking about it, and it turned out that guy was like the best tuner in town, in high demand. I think back to things like that, being a part of work like that, stuff my dad did on the car or lawnmower and such, and even that simple stuff must have been a trigger to my interest now in fixing and building things. I learned 2 things that day -- first that blind people were not creepy, and that being blind seemed to be no impediment to doing something really cool. And I guess if you are blind you better have someone else with you to make sure someone does not rip you off giving you the wrong money. That last part I might have figured out later, but anyway... --R On 9/5/12 9:57 PM, Mountain Man wrote: Dan wrote: Take it for what it's worth, but this is coming from guys who make their livings doing this. Very few people make good living as piano technicians. It is very tough to obtain and keep customers. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos or Cars?
Randy Bennell re-wrote Dan's post forwarding piano stuff: Nice. *grin* -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am sure I want to continue on, I'll be better suited to find a good acoustic piano that I would expect to spend a fair amount on and keep for some time. I see a lot of Yamaha DPs on CL in the $300-$700 range, but it's almost like trying to buy a DVD player - they all do the same thing, but what makes one better than the others? I want something that will provide action similar to an acoustic piano, and 88 keys. As for all the MIDI and synth stuff, I don't care. Anyone on the list a keyboard player who might want to weigh in on this? Thanks, Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am sure I want to continue on, I'll be better suited to find a good acoustic piano that I would expect to spend a fair amount on and keep for some time. I see a lot of Yamaha DPs on CL in the $300-$700 range, but it's almost like trying to buy a DVD player - they all do the same thing, but what makes one better than the others? I want something that will provide action similar to an acoustic piano, and 88 keys. As for all the MIDI and synth stuff, I don't care. Anyone on the list a keyboard player who might want to weigh in on this? Thanks, Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am sure I want to continue on, I'll be better suited to find a good acoustic piano that I would expect to spend a fair amount on and keep for some time. I see a lot of Yamaha DPs on CL in the $300-$700 range, but it's almost like trying to buy a DVD player - they all do the same thing, but what makes one better than the others? I want something that will provide action similar to an acoustic piano, and 88 keys. As for all the MIDI and synth stuff, I don't care. Anyone on the list a keyboard player who might want to weigh in on this? Thanks, Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am sure I want to continue on, I'll be better suited to find a good acoustic piano that I would expect to spend a fair amount on and keep for some time. I see a lot of Yamaha DPs on CL in the $300-$700 range, but it's almost like trying to buy a DVD player - they all do the same thing, but what makes one better than the others? I want something that will provide action similar to an acoustic piano, and 88 keys. As for all the MIDI and synth stuff, I don't care. Anyone on the list a keyboard player who might want to weigh in on this? Thanks, Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
I would guess it really depends on where you are too. I am in Canada and in Winnipeg. We are used to things costing a fortune here. Pianos are probably no exception. If you are somewhere where there are an abundance of them and some real competition then prices are likely better. Randy On 05/09/2012 2:16 PM, Dan Penoff wrote: I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am sure I want to continue on, I'll be better suited to find a good acoustic piano that I would expect to spend a fair amount on and keep for some time. I see a lot of Yamaha DPs on CL in the $300-$700 range, but it's almost like trying to buy a DVD player - they all do the same thing, but what makes one better than the others? I want something that will provide action similar to an acoustic piano, and 88 keys. As for all the MIDI and synth stuff, I don't care. Anyone on the list a keyboard player who might want to weigh in on this? Thanks, Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
There are tons of them here, but many of them are spinets and uprights that have been more or less abandoned from lack of use. Lots of nice small (baby) grands. For under $5k you pretty much have your pick. I just looked at a really nice Yamaha grand last week that was a one owner well maintained piano that probably cost the OP upwards of $15k about 5-6 years ago. You could get it today for probably $4500 if you had cash in hand. Too bad they were transferred to another post - the military won't ship pianos Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: I would guess it really depends on where you are too. I am in Canada and in Winnipeg. We are used to things costing a fortune here. Pianos are probably no exception. If you are somewhere where there are an abundance of them and some real competition then prices are likely better. Randy On 05/09/2012 2:16 PM, Dan Penoff wrote: I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am sure I want to continue on, I'll be better suited to find a good acoustic piano that I would expect to spend a fair amount on and keep for some time. I see a lot of Yamaha DPs on CL in the $300-$700 range, but it's almost like trying to buy a DVD player - they all do the same thing, but what makes one better than the others? I want something that will provide action similar to an acoustic piano, and 88 keys. As for all the MIDI and synth stuff, I don't care. Anyone on the list a keyboard player who might want to weigh in on this? Thanks, Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
Military evidently changed policy since moving SWMBO's upright from Raleigh, NC, to MI UP in '71, to CA in '75 and to Goldsboro, NC, in '79, then. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos There are tons of them here, but many of them are spinets and uprights that have been more or less abandoned from lack of use. Lots of nice small (baby) grands. For under $5k you pretty much have your pick. I just looked at a really nice Yamaha grand last week that was a one owner well maintained piano that probably cost the OP upwards of $15k about 5-6 years ago. You could get it today for probably $4500 if you had cash in hand. Too bad they were transferred to another post - the military won't ship pianos Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: I would guess it really depends on where you are too. I am in Canada and in Winnipeg. We are used to things costing a fortune here. Pianos are probably no exception. If you are somewhere where there are an abundance of them and some real competition then prices are likely better. Randy On 05/09/2012 2:16 PM, Dan Penoff wrote: I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am sure I want to continue on, I'll be better suited to find a good acoustic piano that I would expect to spend a fair amount on and keep for some time. I see a lot of Yamaha DPs on CL in the $300-$700 range, but it's almost like trying to buy a DVD player - they all do the same thing, but what makes one better than the others? I want something that will provide action similar to an acoustic piano, and 88 keys. As for all the MIDI and synth stuff, I don't care
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
That was the story. Based on the many military neighbors I have and their possessions, I sort of questioned it myself. That being said, I don't recall any of them having pianos, much less a baby grand. I could see where there might be limits on what they would move when it comes to something like that. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 4:10 PM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: Military evidently changed policy since moving SWMBO's upright from Raleigh, NC, to MI UP in '71, to CA in '75 and to Goldsboro, NC, in '79, then. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos There are tons of them here, but many of them are spinets and uprights that have been more or less abandoned from lack of use. Lots of nice small (baby) grands. For under $5k you pretty much have your pick. I just looked at a really nice Yamaha grand last week that was a one owner well maintained piano that probably cost the OP upwards of $15k about 5-6 years ago. You could get it today for probably $4500 if you had cash in hand. Too bad they were transferred to another post - the military won't ship pianos Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: I would guess it really depends on where you are too. I am in Canada and in Winnipeg. We are used to things costing a fortune here. Pianos are probably no exception. If you are somewhere where there are an abundance of them and some real competition then prices are likely better. Randy On 05/09/2012 2:16 PM, Dan Penoff wrote: I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
Moving reminds me: In '68 when moving from Warner Robins, GA, to Raleigh, NC, movers wanted to drive my Karman Ghia up into empty space at rear of long trailer for the overnight drive to Raleigh (They'd charge the weight; I'd get my 2nd car moved for free.). 'Course, I refused; 'could imagine arriving at new house in Raleigh the next morning with empty space at rear of trailer - no Karman Ghia and no record of its having gone on the truck. Wilton - Original Message - From: WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 4:08 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos Military evidently changed policy since moving SWMBO's upright from Raleigh, NC, to MI UP in '71, to CA in '75 and to Goldsboro, NC, in '79, then. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos There are tons of them here, but many of them are spinets and uprights that have been more or less abandoned from lack of use. Lots of nice small (baby) grands. For under $5k you pretty much have your pick. I just looked at a really nice Yamaha grand last week that was a one owner well maintained piano that probably cost the OP upwards of $15k about 5-6 years ago. You could get it today for probably $4500 if you had cash in hand. Too bad they were transferred to another post - the military won't ship pianos Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: I would guess it really depends on where you are too. I am in Canada and in Winnipeg. We are used to things costing a fortune here. Pianos are probably no exception. If you are somewhere where there are an abundance of them and some real competition then prices are likely better. Randy On 05/09/2012 2:16 PM, Dan Penoff wrote: I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
'Wouldn't move a motorcycle with over 50cc engine. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos That was the story. Based on the many military neighbors I have and their possessions, I sort of questioned it myself. That being said, I don't recall any of them having pianos, much less a baby grand. I could see where there might be limits on what they would move when it comes to something like that. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 4:10 PM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: Military evidently changed policy since moving SWMBO's upright from Raleigh, NC, to MI UP in '71, to CA in '75 and to Goldsboro, NC, in '79, then. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos There are tons of them here, but many of them are spinets and uprights that have been more or less abandoned from lack of use. Lots of nice small (baby) grands. For under $5k you pretty much have your pick. I just looked at a really nice Yamaha grand last week that was a one owner well maintained piano that probably cost the OP upwards of $15k about 5-6 years ago. You could get it today for probably $4500 if you had cash in hand. Too bad they were transferred to another post - the military won't ship pianos Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: I would guess it really depends on where you are too. I am in Canada and in Winnipeg. We are used to things costing a fortune here. Pianos are probably no exception. If you are somewhere where there are an abundance of them and some real competition then prices are likely better. Randy On 05/09/2012 2:16 PM, Dan Penoff wrote: I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
That wouldn't be a motorcycle - it would be a scooter! Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 4:23 PM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: 'Wouldn't move a motorcycle with over 50cc engine. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos That was the story. Based on the many military neighbors I have and their possessions, I sort of questioned it myself. That being said, I don't recall any of them having pianos, much less a baby grand. I could see where there might be limits on what they would move when it comes to something like that. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 4:10 PM, WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: Military evidently changed policy since moving SWMBO's upright from Raleigh, NC, to MI UP in '71, to CA in '75 and to Goldsboro, NC, in '79, then. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos There are tons of them here, but many of them are spinets and uprights that have been more or less abandoned from lack of use. Lots of nice small (baby) grands. For under $5k you pretty much have your pick. I just looked at a really nice Yamaha grand last week that was a one owner well maintained piano that probably cost the OP upwards of $15k about 5-6 years ago. You could get it today for probably $4500 if you had cash in hand. Too bad they were transferred to another post - the military won't ship pianos Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: I would guess it really depends on where you are too. I am in Canada and in Winnipeg. We are used to things costing a fortune here. Pianos are probably no exception. If you are somewhere where there are an abundance of them and some real competition then prices are likely better. Randy On 05/09/2012 2:16 PM, Dan Penoff wrote: I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
Your statements do not conform to my experience. My mom gave us a circa 1950s Baldwin (I think it is called a console). Our kids were getting lessons for a while. We called in a technician to tune it and he found the sounding board to be cracked (many small cracks or surface checking). He injected hot epoxy into the cracks and made it better than new for maybe $300 IIRC. I am not aware of anything major other than the sounding board that can go wrong with a quality piano. YMMV Greg -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 12:16 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am sure I want to continue on, I'll be better suited to find a good acoustic piano that I would expect to spend a fair amount on and keep for some time. I see a lot of Yamaha DPs on CL in the $300-$700 range, but it's almost like trying to buy a DVD player - they all do the same thing, but what makes one better than the others? I want something that will provide action similar to an acoustic piano, and 88 keys. As for all the MIDI and synth stuff, I don't care. Anyone on the list a keyboard player who might want to weigh in on this? Thanks, Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
I would have thought much the same, but after spending time online and locally with some very well respected piano technicians, this is not the case. I could go into the detail they did, but this is not the place. Suffice to say that there are fixes such as you describe for older pianos, but they are just that - fixes. Sort of like jig welding a rear trailing arm for a 123 or 126. Functionally, it works. To a technician, who is trained to adjust and voice a piano, the difference is apparent and affects the tone of the instrument forever. Just as an example, does anyone realize the amount of pressure the strings exert on the frame? Literally thousands of pounds. Think of that tension being applied over many years to the frame. Felts in the action dry and lose their resilience. Parts of the action, wood and leather among other materials, degrade over time. Pin blocks are the other big area when it comes to repairs and rebuilding. A pin block has a static life, and after time must be replaced to maintain the instrument in tune. The epoxy fix is used and appropriate in some cases. For a very high quality instrument, the only fix is replacement. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 4:25 PM, Greg Fiorentino gf...@dslnorthwest.net wrote: Your statements do not conform to my experience. My mom gave us a circa 1950s Baldwin (I think it is called a console). Our kids were getting lessons for a while. We called in a technician to tune it and he found the sounding board to be cracked (many small cracks or surface checking). He injected hot epoxy into the cracks and made it better than new for maybe $300 IIRC. I am not aware of anything major other than the sounding board that can go wrong with a quality piano. YMMV Greg -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 12:16 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
We spent more money on a piano than it is worth a number of years back. It is an old upright grand piano made in Toronto in something like 1926. We had all of the wound strings replaced. The fellow who did it for us is a little fellow from Sri Lanka. I have talked to him recently and he is suffering from the same problem as many other businesses. People can buy a new junk piano for less than it costs to buy and maintain an older decent piano so they get the new one. The parts inside are plastic but the finish is nice. So my Sri Lankan fellow is struggling to make a living. I know a fellow who has a sewing machine repair shop. Same sort of thing. People won't pay what it costs to have a decent older machine cleaned and serviced because they can buy a new plastic one at Wal-Mart for very little money. Singer will sell them to Wal-Mart for less than the small dealers so he cannot compete with Wal-Mart. Randy On 05/09/2012 3:32 PM, Greg Fiorentino wrote: Your statements do not conform to my experience. My mom gave us a circa 1950s Baldwin (I think it is called a console). Our kids were getting lessons for a while. We called in a technician to tune it and he found the sounding board to be cracked (many small cracks or surface checking). He injected hot epoxy into the cracks and made it better than new for maybe $300 IIRC. I am not aware of anything major other than the sounding board that can go wrong with a quality piano. YMMV Greg -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 12:16 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am sure I want to continue on, I'll be better suited to find a good acoustic
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 16:37:21 -0400 Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote: I could go into the detail they did, but this is not the place. Why not? The thread is already marked OT. Pin blocks are the other big area when it comes to repairs and rebuilding. A pin block has a static life, and after time must be replaced to maintain the instrument in tune. We need a new pin block/pin block repair in our 100+ year old Chickering. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
This has been an issue for the industry since the early 90s. A number of manufacturers have farmed out production to the Chinese, with the accompanying issues one would expect. Some Chinese startup companies have come in and been making substandard instruments as well, or making what is known in the industry as stencils, which is another name for brand labeling. Older pianos can be fine, it's just that there are a lot of them out there that are past the point of being good instruments without spending far more that they are worth to get them in shape. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 4:54 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: We spent more money on a piano than it is worth a number of years back. It is an old upright grand piano made in Toronto in something like 1926. We had all of the wound strings replaced. The fellow who did it for us is a little fellow from Sri Lanka. I have talked to him recently and he is suffering from the same problem as many other businesses. People can buy a new junk piano for less than it costs to buy and maintain an older decent piano so they get the new one. The parts inside are plastic but the finish is nice. So my Sri Lankan fellow is struggling to make a living. I know a fellow who has a sewing machine repair shop. Same sort of thing. People won't pay what it costs to have a decent older machine cleaned and serviced because they can buy a new plastic one at Wal-Mart for very little money. Singer will sell them to Wal-Mart for less than the small dealers so he cannot compete with Wal-Mart. Randy On 05/09/2012 3:32 PM, Greg Fiorentino wrote: Your statements do not conform to my experience. My mom gave us a circa 1950s Baldwin (I think it is called a console). Our kids were getting lessons for a while. We called in a technician to tune it and he found the sounding board to be cracked (many small cracks or surface checking). He injected hot epoxy into the cracks and made it better than new for maybe $300 IIRC. I am not aware of anything major other than the sounding board that can go wrong with a quality piano. YMMV Greg -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 12:16 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
When I get home tonight I'll go into detail. I have a LOT of notes from my discussions with these guys. It's pretty fascinating to me... Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 5:01 PM, Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 16:37:21 -0400 Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote: I could go into the detail they did, but this is not the place. Why not? The thread is already marked OT. Pin blocks are the other big area when it comes to repairs and rebuilding. A pin block has a static life, and after time must be replaced to maintain the instrument in tune. We need a new pin block/pin block repair in our 100+ year old Chickering. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
Dan Penoff wrote: I would have thought much the same, but after spending time online and locally with some very well respected piano technicians, this is not the case. So - do you want a Pebbles Beach quality car, or one that just looks pretty good and drives nice. It's that kind of difference. Sort of like jig welding a rear trailing arm for a 123 or 126. Functionally, it works. To a technician, who is trained to adjust and voice a piano, the difference is apparent and affects the tone of the instrument forever. Hmmm, no... I'd say more like putting Monroe dampers (shock absorbers) on. Or replacing the stereo with a JVC. Or removing the EGR system. These all make it NOT factory. It doesn't mean the usefulness of the device is gone. Is it acceptable to drive a Mercedes with a broken hood ornament? Or one that the back windows don't roll up and down because the regulators are bent? Or not all the doors unlock via vacuum? There are some of us that find it not worth the money necessary to put and keep a car at factory perfect status. The same is true of a piano. Just as an example, does anyone realize the amount of pressure the strings exert on the frame? Literally thousands of pounds. Total. Not per string. There are 88 notes. About 2/3rds of those use three strings. Most of the rest use two strings. A few of the lowest use only one. So there is a total of over 200 strings. 30,000 to 40,000 pounds tension, total, is typical. There is still a lot of tension on each string. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
We have a old 1940's upright grand that the wife bought at a salvation army store, I wish we would get rid of it. All I know is aside from a couple of keys that stick, it sounds good FWIW. On 9/5/2012 3:32 PM, Greg Fiorentino wrote: Your statements do not conform to my experience. My mom gave us a circa 1950s Baldwin (I think it is called a console). Our kids were getting lessons for a while. We called in a technician to tune it and he found the sounding board to be cracked (many small cracks or surface checking). He injected hot epoxy into the cracks and made it better than new for maybe $300 IIRC. I am not aware of anything major other than the sounding board that can go wrong with a quality piano. YMMV Greg -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 12:16 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am sure I want to continue on, I'll be better suited to find a good acoustic piano that I would expect to spend a fair amount on and keep for some time. I see a lot of Yamaha DPs on CL in the $300-$700 range, but it's almost like trying to buy a DVD player - they all do the same thing, but what makes one better than the others? I want something that will provide action similar to an acoustic piano, and 88 keys. As for all the MIDI and synth stuff, I don't care. Anyone on the list a keyboard player who might want to weigh in on this? Thanks, Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
Dan wrote: I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: My son is an RPT, and ASE mechanic. The piano he obtained, no cost, to learn the trade was in the lower level of a split level house. They guy was ready to take hatchet to it to get it out of the house - an old upright. He removed much trim and carpet so the movers could get it out - the movers were the expense of this piano, you don't want to move a piano - pay a mover. Old pianos can always be had for nothing, since the real expense is getting it moved to a new location. Huge, heavy dense, old wood = real heavy. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
Or tv repair men, stereo repair men On 9/5/2012 3:54 PM, Randy Bennell wrote: We spent more money on a piano than it is worth a number of years back. It is an old upright grand piano made in Toronto in something like 1926. We had all of the wound strings replaced. The fellow who did it for us is a little fellow from Sri Lanka. I have talked to him recently and he is suffering from the same problem as many other businesses. People can buy a new junk piano for less than it costs to buy and maintain an older decent piano so they get the new one. The parts inside are plastic but the finish is nice. So my Sri Lankan fellow is struggling to make a living. I know a fellow who has a sewing machine repair shop. Same sort of thing. People won't pay what it costs to have a decent older machine cleaned and serviced because they can buy a new plastic one at Wal-Mart for very little money. Singer will sell them to Wal-Mart for less than the small dealers so he cannot compete with Wal-Mart. Randy On 05/09/2012 3:32 PM, Greg Fiorentino wrote: Your statements do not conform to my experience. My mom gave us a circa 1950s Baldwin (I think it is called a console). Our kids were getting lessons for a while. We called in a technician to tune it and he found the sounding board to be cracked (many small cracks or surface checking). He injected hot epoxy into the cracks and made it better than new for maybe $300 IIRC. I am not aware of anything major other than the sounding board that can go wrong with a quality piano. YMMV Greg -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 12:16 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
FWIW I have always wanted to play the piano also. On 9/5/2012 4:08 PM, Dan Penoff wrote: When I get home tonight I'll go into detail. I have a LOT of notes from my discussions with these guys. It's pretty fascinating to me... Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 5:01 PM, Craig diese...@pisquared.net wrote: On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 16:37:21 -0400 Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote: I could go into the detail they did, but this is not the place. Why not? The thread is already marked OT. Pin blocks are the other big area when it comes to repairs and rebuilding. A pin block has a static life, and after time must be replaced to maintain the instrument in tune. We need a new pin block/pin block repair in our 100+ year old Chickering. Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5250 - Release Date: 09/05/12 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
Yea, I moved that old piano of ours 2 times. When we first bought it, the wife and I moved it by ourselves. NOT FUN. When we moved in here, we had it moved, well, we hired movers to move the big stuff, including the piano. I am sure they were not professional piano movers. I am sure that thing is so heavy it is causing the floor to sag where it sits, or at least it seems like it (we have a crawl space). On 9/5/2012 5:10 PM, Mountain Man wrote: Dan wrote: I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: My son is an RPT, and ASE mechanic. The piano he obtained, no cost, to learn the trade was in the lower level of a split level house. They guy was ready to take hatchet to it to get it out of the house - an old upright. He removed much trim and carpet so the movers could get it out - the movers were the expense of this piano, you don't want to move a piano - pay a mover. Old pianos can always be had for nothing, since the real expense is getting it moved to a new location. Huge, heavy dense, old wood = real heavy. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5250 - Release Date: 09/05/12 ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
Moved both of SWMBO's pianos from Italy to Charleston in 1999. -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '95 E300 '87 300TD WILTON wilt...@nc.rr.com wrote: Military evidently changed policy since moving SWMBO's upright from Raleigh, NC, to MI UP in '71, to CA in '75 and to Goldsboro, NC, in '79, then. Wilton - Original Message - From: Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos There are tons of them here, but many of them are spinets and uprights that have been more or less abandoned from lack of use. Lots of nice small (baby) grands. For under $5k you pretty much have your pick. I just looked at a really nice Yamaha grand last week that was a one owner well maintained piano that probably cost the OP upwards of $15k about 5-6 years ago. You could get it today for probably $4500 if you had cash in hand. Too bad they were transferred to another post - the military won't ship pianos Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: I would guess it really depends on where you are too. I am in Canada and in Winnipeg. We are used to things costing a fortune here. Pianos are probably no exception. If you are somewhere where there are an abundance of them and some real competition then prices are likely better. Randy On 05/09/2012 2:16 PM, Dan Penoff wrote: I have immersed myself in the piano technician community over the last few months, and what I have found is rather interesting: 1.) An old piano is just that - old and tired, and they do wear out over time 2.) Any piano that is more that 15-20 years old, even if it has been well maintained, will require a fair amount of work for it to perform properly. 3.) There are a very few brands that are worth rebuilding, and even then the cost to do so is difficult to justify relative to the value of the instrument. 4.) Pianos depreciate like cars - rapidly at first, leveling off after 5-10 years of age. Few, if any, will ever appreciate. 5.) The choice of a piano is purely one of personal preference and taste. What appeals to one may not to another. 6.) Price is a relative thing. There are cheap pianos, then there are expensive cheap pianos. 7.) As with buying any used MB, employ a qualified piano tech to perform a PPI before buying a piano. It's money we'll spent. Amazing how many parallels there are relative to our MBs. As for digital keyboards, newer is always better, and yes, like any electronic instrument, they depreciate rapidly as technology advances. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:52 PM, Randy Bennell rbenn...@bennell.ca wrote: Let me suggest another issue. I am told that good quality accoustic pianos tend to hold their value very well or maybe even appreciate in value. Electronic pianos are like computers. Newer better stuff keeps coming along and the old stuff is junked. So, if you really want an electronic one, let me suggest that you look for a used one that is no longer state of the art. If you want to invest in a good piano then buy a traditional one. My church (or at least it used to be my church - I am unhappy with the current clergy and am waiting for them to move on before I go back on a regular basis ) went through this process a few years back and had several in to try them out. The music people liked the fancy electronic one for the capabilities it had but elected to buy a nice ebony grand - Balwin I believe. It has a built in humidifier. There is a light that flashes when it needs to be refilled with water. Randy who is not a piano player but wishes he had some musical talent On 05/09/2012 1:38 PM, Scott Ritchey wrote: We replaced the piano in out church and ended up with a Yamaha Clavinova for half the price of an acoustic piano. The Clavinova's key action (and sound) are very like a good acoustic piano IMO. But the thing that really sold us on the digital piano was maintenance. Our church isn't climate-controlled most of the time (60-80 degree range) and that was hard on the acoustic pianos. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: Mercedes List Subject: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am sure I want to continue on, I'll be better suited to find a good acoustic piano that I would expect to spend a fair amount on and keep for some time. I see a lot of Yamaha DPs on CL in the $300-$700 range, but it's almost like trying to buy a DVD player
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
For what it's worth, this is part of a discussion I had with a number of people (expert piano techs and rebuilders) regarding old pianos and what defines them. Do take the in context - some of these guys are rebuilding Steinways that cost more than any of our cars ever did... It is a matter of all of the above. Age takes its toll, especially on wood, leather, felt, etc. All of those things are subject to deterioration over time, whether being used (played) or not, and they are the vast majority of the parts which make up a piano. There comes a point when they are just past their useful life. Sometimes they can be nudged along for awhile, but the clock is always ticking. The general rule of thumb for the useful life of a piano, from one of the great builders, is about fifty years. It is about then that a rebuild is necessary. I would suggest that you do searches on the topics of rebuilding, restoring, and refurbishing. The terms have very different meanings. These topics have been well covered at PW. Often inexperienced (1st. time) piano owners are unaware of maintenance other than regular tuning. Within the 50 year life, depending on usage, one should expect multiple new sets of hammers and possibly a new set of strings. Again based on use, about every five years a piano will need a thorough action regulation and voicing. These are not hard and fast rules, but a guide for a well maintained piano. What it all boils down to is that pianos over 100 years old will need considerable work if they have not had a total rebuild within about the last 25 years or so. Also, there are only a handful of manufacturer's instruments which are worth the investment. That is why you hear run away or kindling when a newcomer asks about a 1893 Whatever Sons, in lovely condition, built in Obscura Ohio, by a blacksmith, who also made milking stools. The original owner was always a concert pianist and most likely the good as new piano is discovered on Craigslist. It just goes with the territory. The lesson has been learned over and over again. Of the American builders, here's the handy list: Steinway Sons Mason Hamlin Baldwin Chickering - pre-WWII Knabe - pre-WWII There will probably be many responses with the you forgots and the how 'bouts. I didn't forget them, I chose to forget them for reason. There are endless possibilities, but as a beginner, I would suggest that you play it a bit safe and stay with the known commodities. Pianos which were built to last, have proven that they do last. But, as you see, it is a very short list and even those need proper maintenance throughout their various incarnations by means of rebuilding. It all boils down to an old piano is still an old piano. They wear out. Many can be brought back to life. All it takes is $$$. You would be doing yourself a favor if you were looking in the direction of quality studio or console pianos from the late 1980's-90's. Take it for what it's worth, but this is coming from guys who make their livings doing this. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 5:08 PM, Dan Penoff wrote: When I get home tonight I'll go into detail. I have a LOT of notes from my discussions with these guys. It's pretty fascinating to me... Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
We have an old piano I'd like to sell, can you recommend a resource to help determine a price? It is a Kaus upright, my wife says at least 100 years old. -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '95 E300 '87 300TD Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com wrote: For what it's worth, this is part of a discussion I had with a number of people (expert piano techs and rebuilders) regarding old pianos and what defines them. Do take the in context - some of these guys are rebuilding Steinways that cost more than any of our cars ever did... It is a matter of all of the above. Age takes its toll, especially on wood, leather, felt, etc. All of those things are subject to deterioration over time, whether being used (played) or not, and they are the vast majority of the parts which make up a piano. There comes a point when they are just past their useful life. Sometimes they can be nudged along for awhile, but the clock is always ticking. The general rule of thumb for the useful life of a piano, from one of the great builders, is about fifty years. It is about then that a rebuild is necessary. I would suggest that you do searches on the topics of rebuilding, restoring, and refurbishing. The terms have very different meanings. These topics have been well covered at PW. Often inexperienced (1st. time) piano owners are unaware of maintenance other than regular tuning. Within the 50 year life, depending on usage, one should expect multiple new sets of hammers and possibly a new set of strings. Again based on use, about every five years a piano will need a thorough action regulation and voicing. These are not hard and fast rules, but a guide for a well maintained piano. What it all boils down to is that pianos over 100 years old will need considerable work if they have not had a total rebuild within about the last 25 years or so. Also, there are only a handful of manufacturer's instruments which are worth the investment. That is why you hear run away or kindling when a newcomer asks about a 1893 Whatever Sons, in lovely condition, built in Obscura Ohio, by a blacksmith, who also made milking stools. The original owner was always a concert pianist and most likely the good as new piano is discovered on Craigslist. It just goes with the territory. The lesson has been learned over and over again. Of the American builders, here's the handy list: Steinway Sons Mason Hamlin Baldwin Chickering - pre-WWII Knabe - pre-WWII There will probably be many responses with the you forgots and the how 'bouts. I didn't forget them, I chose to forget them for reason. There are endless possibilities, but as a beginner, I would suggest that you play it a bit safe and stay with the known commodities. Pianos which were built to last, have proven that they do last. But, as you see, it is a very short list and even those need proper maintenance throughout their various incarnations by means of rebuilding. It all boils down to an old piano is still an old piano. They wear out. Many can be brought back to life. All it takes is $$$. You would be doing yourself a favor if you were looking in the direction of quality studio or console pianos from the late 1980's-90's. Take it for what it's worth, but this is coming from guys who make their livings doing this. Dan On Sep 5, 2012, at 5:08 PM, Dan Penoff wrote: When I get home tonight I'll go into detail. I have a LOT of notes from my discussions with these guys. It's pretty fascinating to me... Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
Dan wrote: Take it for what it's worth, but this is coming from guys who make their livings doing this. Very few people make good living as piano technicians. It is very tough to obtain and keep customers. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
As Phillip said, do you need a very high quaity instrument to learn to play on? Can you hear the difference between a great piano and mearly OK one? I can't, and doubt that I ever could. Our 111 year old upright snds great to me, but then I grew up with it, our kids learned to play it, etc. - it's what I compare all other pianos to. It was re-built once, in the 1960s I think. We (the kids) hated that the chipped ivories were prelaced with plastic, but those plastic covers are still as good as they were in 1960, so they are more durable. I just hope one of the kids decides to live in one place long enough to make it worth moving it to their house - the grand kids need to learn to play on their great-great-great grandparent's piano. On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Mountain Man maontin@gmail.com wrote: Dan wrote: Take it for what it's worth, but this is coming from guys who make their livings doing this. Very few people make good living as piano technicians. It is very tough to obtain and keep customers. mao ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- OK Don 2001 ML320 2012 Passat TDI DSG 1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
[MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am sure I want to continue on, I'll be better suited to find a good acoustic piano that I would expect to spend a fair amount on and keep for some time. I see a lot of Yamaha DPs on CL in the $300-$700 range, but it's almost like trying to buy a DVD player - they all do the same thing, but what makes one better than the others? I want something that will provide action similar to an acoustic piano, and 88 keys. As for all the MIDI and synth stuff, I don't care. Anyone on the list a keyboard player who might want to weigh in on this? Thanks, Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
I love the sound of a Rhodes piano, very distinctive, not sure how it feels to play though. Allan Dan Penoff d...@penoff.com writes: I am finally going to check off a bucket list item and start taking piano lessons, something I have wanted since I was a young boy. While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am sure I want to continue on, I'll be better suited to find a good acoustic piano that I would expect to spend a fair amount on and keep for some time. I see a lot of Yamaha DPs on CL in the $300-$700 range, but it's almost like trying to buy a DVD player - they all do the same thing, but what makes one better than the others? I want something that will provide action similar to an acoustic piano, and 88 keys. As for all the MIDI and synth stuff, I don't care. Anyone on the list a keyboard player who might want to weigh in on this? Thanks, Dan ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- 1983 300D 1979 300SD ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
On Sep 3, 2012, at 5:37 PM, Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: I love the sound of a Rhodes piano, very distinctive, not sure how it feels to play though. Ray thinks the action is pretty good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdbrIrFxas0feature=youtube_gdata_player Rick Sent from my iPhone ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
A better clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cnzuI4fsMsfeature=youtube_gdata_player Rick Sent from my iPhone On Sep 3, 2012, at 5:37 PM, Allan Streib str...@cs.indiana.edu wrote: I love the sound of a Rhodes piano, very distinctive, not sure how it feels to play though. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
I have a Miracle piano for sale. Not 88 keys, but a good beginner piano and a collectible item. I can supply everything, including the computer to hook it up to a classic (040) Mac. Complete and in the original box, Original Macintosh conversion kit. Add a Miracle Piano nintendo cartridge and some gamers pay crazy money for them. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Digital Pianos
Dan Penoff wrote: While I could purchase an acoustic piano at this point, I would rather invest in a decent digital piano that has good action first. Once I start to become proficient and am sure I want to continue on, I'll be better suited to find a good acoustic piano that I would expect to spend a fair amount on and keep for some time. they all do the same thing, but what makes one better than the others? Action and audio. Not just how the key press feels, but how it controls the sound. Better keyboards have better action that better mimic a mechanical piano. Keep in mind, though, that even mechanical pianos have a _lot_ of variation in action. The better keyboards are sampled rather than generated. That means a recording was made and this recording is tweaked to get each pitch on the piano. The result is an envelope that sounds much more like a mechanical piano. The better keyboards use more samples - both to decrease the number of pitches that have to be created from each sample and to have different samples for the various intensities of key presses. Anyone on the list a keyboard player who might want to weigh in on this? A piano teacher I know choose a Casio PX-330 as one of the very best of the lower-priced keyboards - as of a couple years ago. It is not as good as an acoustic, but it's good enough it was used as the second piano for a duet recital. I have not played it - but I have heard it. Pretty decent. -- Philip ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
