subject:"\[MBZ\] OT \- Home AC Question"

Our current setup consists of a “new" air handler/evaporator that was installed 
just before we bought the home in 2011, and the original 4 ton outdoor (Trane) 
compressor/condenser.

It works fine, although the duty cycle is rather high this time of year with 
the thermostat set for 74F, which is someone’s preferred temperature.  I’m 
seeing total run times in the order of 12 hours/day with the thermostat set at 
this point.  The house is sealed tight, blinds drawn, max insulation in the 
attic.

Anyway, due to the age of the outdoor unit, I’m wondering if there would be 
anything to gain in both efficiency and performance if we replaced it with a 
newer, and no doubt lower SEER rated unit.  The air handler is rated for 
current refrigerants, so that’s not an issue.

Also, would there be any advantage to going to a slightly higher capacity unit, 
say 4.5 or 5 ton versus the current 4 ton?  Or are we limited by what the 
evaporator can do as far as removing heat from the house?

Dan
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

2016-07-17 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes

It has to be sized to the house. Bigger is not always better in the case of 
home ac. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 17, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Our current setup consists of a “new" air handler/evaporator that was 
> installed just before we bought the home in 2011, and the original 4 ton 
> outdoor (Trane) compressor/condenser.
> 
> It works fine, although the duty cycle is rather high this time of year with 
> the thermostat set for 74F, which is someone’s preferred temperature.  I’m 
> seeing total run times in the order of 12 hours/day with the thermostat set 
> at this point.  The house is sealed tight, blinds drawn, max insulation in 
> the attic.
> 
> Anyway, due to the age of the outdoor unit, I’m wondering if there would be 
> anything to gain in both efficiency and performance if we replaced it with a 
> newer, and no doubt lower SEER rated unit.  The air handler is rated for 
> current refrigerants, so that’s not an issue.
> 
> Also, would there be any advantage to going to a slightly higher capacity 
> unit, say 4.5 or 5 ton versus the current 4 ton?  Or are we limited by what 
> the evaporator can do as far as removing heat from the house?
> 
> Dan
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

I understand that, as well as duty cycles and not running for short periods of 
time (oversized).

I’m just wondering if I would get any efficiency or performance gains if the 
compressor/condenser were slightly larger.

Dan


> On Jul 17, 2016, at 2:30 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Our current setup consists of a “new" air handler/evaporator that was 
> installed just before we bought the home in 2011, and the original 4 ton 
> outdoor (Trane) compressor/condenser.
> 
> It works fine, although the duty cycle is rather high this time of year with 
> the thermostat set for 74F, which is someone’s preferred temperature.  I’m 
> seeing total run times in the order of 12 hours/day with the thermostat set 
> at this point.  The house is sealed tight, blinds drawn, max insulation in 
> the attic.
> 
> Anyway, due to the age of the outdoor unit, I’m wondering if there would be 
> anything to gain in both efficiency and performance if we replaced it with a 
> newer, and no doubt lower SEER rated unit.  The air handler is rated for 
> current refrigerants, so that’s not an issue.
> 
> Also, would there be any advantage to going to a slightly higher capacity 
> unit, say 4.5 or 5 ton versus the current 4 ton?  Or are we limited by what 
> the evaporator can do as far as removing heat from the house?
> 
> Dan
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

2016-07-17 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes

It runs half the time, so you want to make it even larger?A 2 ton system running 60 minutes per hour is more efficient than a similar 4 ton running 30 minutes per hour, especially with dealing with humidity. Upsizing AC for efficiency is like taking the four cylinder out of your Focus and dropping in a V8 to save on gas. Your 98% design conditions in Tampa are 32° C dry bulb, 25° wet bulb.Ideally, your A/C should not run more than 100% of the time to maintain your desired temp in design conditions, so a 4 ton running 80% of the time is better than a 3 ton that can't keep up, and a 3 ton / 4 ton two stage unit running full time switching between stages is better than a 4 ton cycling on and off. I wouldn't be surprised if you could drop down to a 2.5T or 3T, but I don't know what your duty cycle is at peak afternoon temps. You could try a 4T two stage, or better yet, a variable speed inverter drive condenser. If you don't want to slightly gain heat in the 2% of the time that design conditions are exceeded, your 99.6% design conditions are34°/25°. But that's not necessary, because 76° indoor temp with the AC running 100% of the time is going to be very low humidity and more comfortable than you'd expect. I'm surprised your cooling design temps are so low, only 2-3°C above Lansing, MI. Must be a coastal thing. Are you far enough inland that Tampa design temps don't apply to you?If your A/C runs less than 80% of the time maintaining 74°F in the afternoon sun on a cloudless 90° day, strongly consider buying something like this and putting a thermostatic expansion valve on the indoor coil if you don't already have one. https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Air-Conditioner/DSXC180361-3-Ton-18-SEER-Air-Conditioner-Condenser-2-Stage-R410A/14721.achttps://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Air-Conditioner/DSZC180361-3-Ton-18-SEER-Heat-Pump-Condenser-2-Stage-Communicating/14728.acThe two problems with oversized A/C:1. It doesn't dehumidify as well (major consideration in much of Florida). 2. You need a big duct system to handle the airflow needs (about 400cfm per ton).The good news is that a 3 ton condenser on a 4 ton indoor coil is more efficient than a balanced 3 ton system (higher EER/SEER) if you downsize your outdoor unit.The bad news is that the 3 ton coil would have run colder and dehumidify better. But you can gain latent heat capacity (dehumidification) by reducing airflow. 350CFM/ton dehumidifies better than 400CFM/ton. For me, I almost never run AC in peak temps. If it's over 73°F, I feel a bit warm sleeping under a sheet, so I set the AC to 72-73 in the evening/nighttime. In the morning, I try to do most of my air conditioning when it's colder outside than inside and the AC is most efficient. If it's 55° when I get up and going to be 90 in the afternoon, I might cool to 68° in the morning and let it warm up to 78 during the day, then drop it to 76 in the early evening and 72 at 9pm. If it was 80° at night, I'd probably have to do things a bit differently.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

2016-07-17 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes

This hadn't really occurred to me, on nights when its 70 or less we open all 
the windows and let the house cool down. In the morning we button everything up 
and i usually end up putting on the AC around 1pm when the interior temp hits 
78-80 depending on the humidity.
Angie regularly messes this up for me by opening all the windows when its 75 
and humid...
-Curt

  From: Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
 To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Cc: Mitch Haley 
 Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 3:44 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question
For me, I almost never run AC in peak temps. If it's over 73°F, I feel a bit 
warm sleeping under a sheet, so I set the AC to 72-73 in the evening/nighttime. 
In the morning, I try to do most of my air conditioning when it's colder 
outside than inside and the AC is most efficient.  If it's 55° when I get up 
and going to be 90 in the afternoon, I might cool to 68° in the morning and let 
it warm up to 78 during the day, then drop it to 76 in the early evening and 72 
at 9pm. If it was 80° at night, I'd probably have to do things a bit 
differently. 

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

2016-07-17 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin via Mercedes

No clue but it stands to reason if you got a new unit they are more efficient I 
would think. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 17, 2016, at 1:59 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> I understand that, as well as duty cycles and not running for short periods 
> of time (oversized).
> 
> I’m just wondering if I would get any efficiency or performance gains if the 
> compressor/condenser were slightly larger.
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
>> On Jul 17, 2016, at 2:30 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Our current setup consists of a “new" air handler/evaporator that was 
>> installed just before we bought the home in 2011, and the original 4 ton 
>> outdoor (Trane) compressor/condenser.
>> 
>> It works fine, although the duty cycle is rather high this time of year with 
>> the thermostat set for 74F, which is someone’s preferred temperature.  I’m 
>> seeing total run times in the order of 12 hours/day with the thermostat set 
>> at this point.  The house is sealed tight, blinds drawn, max insulation in 
>> the attic.
>> 
>> Anyway, due to the age of the outdoor unit, I’m wondering if there would be 
>> anything to gain in both efficiency and performance if we replaced it with a 
>> newer, and no doubt lower SEER rated unit.  The air handler is rated for 
>> current refrigerants, so that’s not an issue.
>> 
>> Also, would there be any advantage to going to a slightly higher capacity 
>> unit, say 4.5 or 5 ton versus the current 4 ton?  Or are we limited by what 
>> the evaporator can do as far as removing heat from the house?
>> 
>> Dan
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

This makes sense.

Right now, I’m talking about right this second, we’re at the peak heat load of 
the day.  It’s about 93F, humidity is near saturation at 78%, and the heat 
index is in the 102F range.  100% sun exposure on the roof surface.

The AC will run continuously from now until about 6:00 pm when the sun dips 
below the treeline of the adjacent lot.  It will maintain the 74F setpoint and 
the temperature won’t go above that.

So based on what you describe the system is working as intended and at or near 
peak efficiency.

My AC guy sees it twice a year and says it’s working great and I shouldn’t 
worry about it.  If anyone wanted to convince me to replace things, it would be 
him.

I’m happy.  Case closed.

And for those of you suggesting a change in behaviors, it ain’t gonna happen.  
SWMBO doesn’t like to be “hot”, so that’s that.  If I’m the only one home I’ll 
let it go to 76F-78F without issue and sit under a ceiling fan.

Thanks,

Dan



> On Jul 17, 2016, at 3:44 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> It runs half the time, so you want to make it even larger?
> 
> A 2 ton system running 60 minutes per hour is more efficient than a similar 4 
> ton running 30 minutes per hour, especially with dealing with humidity. 
> 
> Upsizing AC for efficiency is like taking the four cylinder out of your Focus 
> and dropping in a V8 to save on gas. 
> 
> 
> 
> Your 98% design conditions in Tampa are 32° C dry bulb, 25° wet bulb.
> 
> Ideally, your A/C should not run more than 100% of the time to maintain your 
> desired temp in design conditions, so a 4 ton running 80% of the time is 
> better than a 3 ton that can't keep up, and a 3 ton / 4 ton two stage unit 
> running full time switching between stages is better than a 4 ton cycling on 
> and off. I wouldn't be surprised if you could drop down to a 2.5T or 3T, but 
> I don't know what your duty cycle is at peak afternoon temps. You could try a 
> 4T two stage, or better yet, a variable speed inverter drive condenser. 
> 
> If you don't want to slightly gain heat in the 2% of the time that design 
> conditions are exceeded, your 99.6% design conditions are
> 
> 34°/25°. But that's not necessary, because 76° indoor temp with the AC 
> running 100% of the time is going to be very low humidity and more 
> comfortable than you'd expect. 
> 
> I'm surprised your cooling design temps are so low, only 2-3°C above Lansing, 
> MI. Must be a coastal thing. Are you far enough inland that Tampa design 
> temps don't apply to you?
> 
> 
> 
> If your A/C runs less than 80% of the time maintaining 74°F in the afternoon 
> sun on a cloudless 90° day, strongly consider buying something like this and 
> putting a thermostatic expansion valve on the indoor coil if you don't 
> already have one. 
> 
> https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Air-Conditioner/DSXC180361-3-Ton-18-SEER-Air-Conditioner-Condenser-2-Stage-R410A/14721.ac
>  
> 
> https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Air-Conditioner/DSZC180361-3-Ton-18-SEER-Heat-Pump-Condenser-2-Stage-Communicating/14728.ac
>  
> 
> 
> 
> The two problems with oversized A/C:
> 
> 1. It doesn't dehumidify as well (major consideration in much of Florida). 
> 
> 2. You need a big duct system to handle the airflow needs (about 400cfm per 
> ton).
> 
> 
> 
> The good news is that a 3 ton condenser on a 4 ton indoor coil is more 
> efficient than a balanced 3 ton system (higher EER/SEER) if you downsize your 
> outdoor unit.
> 
> The bad news is that the 3 ton coil would have run colder and dehumidify 
> better. But you can gain latent heat capacity (dehumidification) by reducing 
> airflow. 350CFM/ton dehumidifies better than 400CFM/ton. 
> 
> 
> 
> For me, I almost never run AC in peak temps. If it's over 73°F, I feel a bit 
> warm sleeping under a sheet, so I set the AC to 72-73 in the 
> evening/nighttime. In the morning, I try to do most of my air conditioning 
> when it's colder outside than inside and the AC is most efficient.  If it's 
> 55° when I get up and going to be 90 in the afternoon, I might cool to 68° in 
> the morning and let it warm up to 78 during the day, then drop it to 76 in 
> the early evening and 72 at 9pm. If it was 80° at night, I'd probably have to 
> do things a bit differently. 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

2016-07-17 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes


On July 17, 2016 at 4:33 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes  wrote: It’s about 93F, humidity is near saturation at 78%, and the heat index is in the 102F range. 100% sun exposure on the roof surface.The AC will run continuously from now until about 6:00 pm when the sun dips below the treeline of the adjacent lot. It will maintain the 74F setpoint and the temperature won’t go above that.So based on what you describe the system is working as intended and at or near peak efficiency.Yep, it sounds like perfect design performance on a design afternoon. When you think it's too old, or when it quits, replace it with a 4 ton, preferably two stage condenser. Fortunately, up here in the frosty North, I've had about 5 cooling design afternoons all summer, and design temp is only for 2-3 hours a day.And my house is enough smaller / better shaded / better insulated than yours that I have no idea how hot it would have to get to make my 1.5 Ton unit run 100% duty cycle. Design afternoons are close to 50% duty. Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

2016-07-17 Thread OK Don via Mercedes

If you want to reduce costs, look into a geothermal unit . . .

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> This makes sense.
>
> Right now, I’m talking about right this second, we’re at the peak heat
> load of the day.  It’s about 93F, humidity is near saturation at 78%, and
> the heat index is in the 102F range.  100% sun exposure on the roof surface.
>
> The AC will run continuously from now until about 6:00 pm when the sun
> dips below the treeline of the adjacent lot.  It will maintain the 74F
> setpoint and the temperature won’t go above that.
>
> So based on what you describe the system is working as intended and at or
> near peak efficiency.
>
> My AC guy sees it twice a year and says it’s working great and I shouldn’t
> worry about it.  If anyone wanted to convince me to replace things, it
> would be him.
>
> I’m happy.  Case closed.
>
> And for those of you suggesting a change in behaviors, it ain’t gonna
> happen.  SWMBO doesn’t like to be “hot”, so that’s that.  If I’m the only
> one home I’ll let it go to 76F-78F without issue and sit under a ceiling
> fan.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> > On Jul 17, 2016, at 3:44 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > It runs half the time, so you want to make it even larger?
> >
> > A 2 ton system running 60 minutes per hour is more efficient than a
> similar 4 ton running 30 minutes per hour, especially with dealing with
> humidity.
> >
> > Upsizing AC for efficiency is like taking the four cylinder out of your
> Focus and dropping in a V8 to save on gas.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your 98% design conditions in Tampa are 32° C dry bulb, 25° wet bulb.
> >
> > Ideally, your A/C should not run more than 100% of the time to maintain
> your desired temp in design conditions, so a 4 ton running 80% of the time
> is better than a 3 ton that can't keep up, and a 3 ton / 4 ton two stage
> unit running full time switching between stages is better than a 4 ton
> cycling on and off. I wouldn't be surprised if you could drop down to a
> 2.5T or 3T, but I don't know what your duty cycle is at peak afternoon
> temps. You could try a 4T two stage, or better yet, a variable speed
> inverter drive condenser.
> >
> > If you don't want to slightly gain heat in the 2% of the time that
> design conditions are exceeded, your 99.6% design conditions are
> >
> > 34°/25°. But that's not necessary, because 76° indoor temp with the AC
> running 100% of the time is going to be very low humidity and more
> comfortable than you'd expect.
> >
> > I'm surprised your cooling design temps are so low, only 2-3°C above
> Lansing, MI. Must be a coastal thing. Are you far enough inland that Tampa
> design temps don't apply to you?
> >
> >
> >
> > If your A/C runs less than 80% of the time maintaining 74°F in the
> afternoon sun on a cloudless 90° day, strongly consider buying something
> like this and putting a thermostatic expansion valve on the indoor coil if
> you don't already have one.
> >
> >
> https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Air-Conditioner/DSXC180361-3-Ton-18-SEER-Air-Conditioner-Condenser-2-Stage-R410A/14721.ac
> <
> https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Air-Conditioner/DSXC180361-3-Ton-18-SEER-Air-Conditioner-Condenser-2-Stage-R410A/14721.ac
> >
> >
> https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Air-Conditioner/DSZC180361-3-Ton-18-SEER-Heat-Pump-Condenser-2-Stage-Communicating/14728.ac
> <
> https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Air-Conditioner/DSZC180361-3-Ton-18-SEER-Heat-Pump-Condenser-2-Stage-Communicating/14728.ac
> >
> >
> >
> > The two problems with oversized A/C:
> >
> > 1. It doesn't dehumidify as well (major consideration in much of
> Florida).
> >
> > 2. You need a big duct system to handle the airflow needs (about 400cfm
> per ton).
> >
> >
> >
> > The good news is that a 3 ton condenser on a 4 ton indoor coil is more
> efficient than a balanced 3 ton system (higher EER/SEER) if you downsize
> your outdoor unit.
> >
> > The bad news is that the 3 ton coil would have run colder and dehumidify
> better. But you can gain latent heat capacity (dehumidification) by
> reducing airflow. 350CFM/ton dehumidifies better than 400CFM/ton.
> >
> >
> >
> > For me, I almost never run AC in peak temps. If it's over 73°F, I feel a
> bit warm sleeping under a sheet, so I set the AC to 72-73 in the
> evening/nighttime. In the morning, I try to do most of my air conditioning
> when it's colder outside than inside and the AC is most efficient.  If it's
> 55° when I get up and going to be 90 in the afternoon, I might cool to 68°
> in the morning and let it warm up to 78 during the day, then drop it to 76
> in the early evening and 72 at 9pm. If it was 80° at night, I'd probably
> have to do things a bit differently.
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okieb

Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

2016-07-17 Thread WILTON via Mercedes

To each his/her own, of course, but an interior temp setting lower than 76F 
feels too cold to me.  Lucky that SWMBO agrees.;<)

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: "Dan Penoff via Mercedes" 

To: "Mercedes List" 
Cc: "Dan Penoff" 
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

This makes sense.

Right now, I’m talking about right this second, we’re at the peak heat 
load of the day.  It’s about 93F, humidity is near saturation at 78%, and 
the heat index is in the 102F range.  100% sun exposure on the roof 
surface.

The AC will run continuously from now until about 6:00 pm when the sun 
dips below the treeline of the adjacent lot.  It will maintain the 74F 
setpoint and the temperature won’t go above that.

So based on what you describe the system is working as intended and at or 
near peak efficiency.

My AC guy sees it twice a year and says it’s working great and I shouldn’t 
worry about it.  If anyone wanted to convince me to replace things, it 
would be him.

I’m happy.  Case closed.

And for those of you suggesting a change in behaviors, it ain’t gonna 
happen.  SWMBO doesn’t like to be “hot”, so that’s that.  If I’m the only 
one home I’ll let it go to 76F-78F without issue and sit under a ceiling 
fan.

Thanks,

Dan

On Jul 17, 2016, at 3:44 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
 wrote:

It runs half the time, so you want to make it even larger?

A 2 ton system running 60 minutes per hour is more efficient than a 
similar 4 ton running 30 minutes per hour, especially with dealing with 
humidity.

Upsizing AC for efficiency is like taking the four cylinder out of your 
Focus and dropping in a V8 to save on gas.

Your 98% design conditions in Tampa are 32° C dry bulb, 25° wet bulb.

Ideally, your A/C should not run more than 100% of the time to maintain 
your desired temp in design conditions, so a 4 ton running 80% of the 
time is better than a 3 ton that can't keep up, and a 3 ton / 4 ton two 
stage unit running full time switching between stages is better than a 4 
ton cycling on and off. I wouldn't be surprised if you could drop down to 
a 2.5T or 3T, but I don't know what your duty cycle is at peak afternoon 
temps. You could try a 4T two stage, or better yet, a variable speed 
inverter drive condenser.

If you don't want to slightly gain heat in the 2% of the time that design 
conditions are exceeded, your 99.6% design conditions are

34°/25°. But that's not necessary, because 76° indoor temp with the AC 
running 100% of the time is going to be very low humidity and more 
comfortable than you'd expect.

I'm surprised your cooling design temps are so low, only 2-3°C above 
Lansing, MI. Must be a coastal thing. Are you far enough inland that 
Tampa design temps don't apply to you?

If your A/C runs less than 80% of the time maintaining 74°F in the 
afternoon sun on a cloudless 90° day, strongly consider buying something 
like this and putting a thermostatic expansion valve on the indoor coil 
if you don't already have one.

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Air-Conditioner/DSXC180361-3-Ton-18-SEER-Air-Conditioner-Condenser-2-Stage-R410A/14721.ac 
<https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Air-Conditioner/DSXC180361-3-Ton-18-SEER-Air-Conditioner-Condenser-2-Stage-R410A/14721.ac>
https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Air-Conditioner/DSZC180361-3-Ton-18-SEER-Heat-Pump-Condenser-2-Stage-Communicating/14728.ac 
<https://www.acwholesalers.com/Goodman-Air-Conditioner/DSZC180361-3-Ton-18-SEER-Heat-Pump-Condenser-2-Stage-Communicating/14728.ac>

The two problems with oversized A/C:

1. It doesn't dehumidify as well (major consideration in much of 
Florida).

2. You need a big duct system to handle the airflow needs (about 400cfm 
per ton).

The good news is that a 3 ton condenser on a 4 ton indoor coil is more 
efficient than a balanced 3 ton system (higher EER/SEER) if you downsize 
your outdoor unit.

The bad news is that the 3 ton coil would have run colder and dehumidify 
better. But you can gain latent heat capacity (dehumidification) by 
reducing airflow. 350CFM/ton dehumidifies better than 400CFM/ton.

For me, I almost never run AC in peak temps. If it's over 73°F, I feel a 
bit warm sleeping under a sheet, so I set the AC to 72-73 in the 
evening/nighttime. In the morning, I try to do most of my air 
conditioning when it's colder outside than inside and the AC is most 
efficient.  If it's 55° when I get up and going to be 90 in the 
afternoon, I might cool to 68° in the morning and let it warm up to 78 
during the day, then drop it to 76 in the early evening and 72 at 9pm. If 
it was 80° at night, I'd probably have to do things a bit differently.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

2016-07-17 Thread Mitch Haley via Mercedes


On July 17, 2016 at 6:01 PM OK Don via Mercedes  wrote:If you want to reduce costs, look into a geothermal unit . . .Works best where they have seasons, like here, where our 50° groundwater is much warmer than winter air and much cooler than summer air. What's the groundwater temp in Tampa?Mitch.
 

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

There is no groundwater to speak of.  We have sand down to limestone, which can 
be several hundred feet down.

Dan


> On Jul 17, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On July 17, 2016 at 6:01 PM OK Don via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> If you want to reduce costs, look into a geothermal unit . . .
>> 
> 
> Works best where they have seasons, like here, where our 50° groundwater is 
> much warmer than winter air and much cooler than summer air. What's the 
> groundwater temp in Tampa?
> 
> 
> 
> Mitch.
> 
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> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

Actually, I should clarify that.  We have “clayey sand” down to limestone.  At 
least that’s what the engineering reports for my property say in the FEMA 
records.

Just got my FOIA request from FEMA after 2 years on every record they have 
pertaining to this property.  The developer had to go to great lengths to get 
approval for the site work here and satisfy FEMA that we’re above the 500 year 
lifetime flood level.  48 pages of engineering reports and related tests.

Dan

> On Jul 17, 2016, at 6:19 PM, Dan Penoff  wrote:
> 
> There is no groundwater to speak of.  We have sand down to limestone, which 
> can be several hundred feet down.
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
>> On Jul 17, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On July 17, 2016 at 6:01 PM OK Don via Mercedes >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> If you want to reduce costs, look into a geothermal unit . . .
>>> 
>> 
>> Works best where they have seasons, like here, where our 50° groundwater is 
>> much warmer than winter air and much cooler than summer air. What's the 
>> groundwater temp in Tampa?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Mitch.
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com 
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

2016-07-17 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes

Our house is 900sqft, what would you figured we'd need in a mini-split to 
replace the wall mount AC we've got now? The wall mount cools the house fine, 
I'm planning for when it dies.
We're pretty well insulated, once I get the roof replaced we'll even up that 
some more.
-Curt

  From: Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
 To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Cc: Mitch Haley 
 Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 5:15 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

On July 17, 2016 at 4:33 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
wrote:

 It’s about 93F, humidity is near saturation at 78%, and the heat index is in 
the 102F range. 100% sun exposure on the roof surface.

The AC will run continuously from now until about 6:00 pm when the sun dips 
below the treeline of the adjacent lot. It will maintain the 74F setpoint and 
the temperature won’t go above that.

So based on what you describe the system is working as intended and at or near 
peak efficiency.

Yep, it sounds like perfect design performance on a design afternoon. 
When you think it's too old, or when it quits, replace it with a 4 ton, 
preferably two stage condenser. Fortunately, up here in the frosty North, I've 
had about 5 cooling design afternoons all summer, and design temp is only for 
2-3 hours a day.
And my house is enough smaller / better shaded / better insulated than yours 
that I have no idea how hot it would have to get to make my 1.5 Ton unit run 
100% duty cycle. Design afternoons are close to 50% duty. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

It would mostly depend on how the house is laid out.  if it is fairly 
open I would do like a 24kBTU unit with 2x12k heads, put one in the 
living area and one in the bedroom.  If you have 2 bedrooms you would 
probably want to get 3 head units which might kick the outdoor unit up 
to 27k BTU.  My 4-head unit (which is currently dead, I think the 
control board has fried) is a 36k outdoor unit.


Here is an LG with 3x9k head units, 27k outdoor unit 
https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LMU24CHV-LSN090HSV4-LSN090HSV4-LSN090HSV4-27000-BTU-21-Seer-Heat-Pump/52414.ac?catId=cat1035&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=1004:LG


The units throttle output so that is the max they would be putting out, 
27k or 36k would probably be quite sufficient though in your climate you 
might need some backup heat for when it gets REALLY cold up there -- 
they don't have heat strips like the air blowing units.


--R


On 7/17/16 6:23 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

Our house is 900sqft, what would you figured we'd need in a mini-split to 
replace the wall mount AC we've got now? The wall mount cools the house fine, 
I'm planning for when it dies.
We're pretty well insulated, once I get the roof replaced we'll even up that 
some more.
-Curt

   From: Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
  To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Mitch Haley 
  Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 5:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question



On July 17, 2016 at 4:33 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
wrote:

  It’s about 93F, humidity is near saturation at 78%, and the heat index is in 
the 102F range. 100% sun exposure on the roof surface.

The AC will run continuously from now until about 6:00 pm when the sun dips 
below the treeline of the adjacent lot. It will maintain the 74F setpoint and 
the temperature won’t go above that.

So based on what you describe the system is working as intended and at or near 
peak efficiency.

Yep, it sounds like perfect design performance on a design afternoon.
When you think it's too old, or when it quits, replace it with a 4 ton, 
preferably two stage condenser. Fortunately, up here in the frosty North, I've 
had about 5 cooling design afternoons all summer, and design temp is only for 
2-3 hours a day.
And my house is enough smaller / better shaded / better insulated than yours 
that I have no idea how hot it would have to get to make my 1.5 Ton unit run 
100% duty cycle. Design afternoons are close to 50% duty.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

2016-07-18 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes

I found this site: http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/hvac-sizing.html which 
has a chart that suggests 1.5 ton (18kBTU) should be fine for where we are.
I'd like to limit to one head for a couple reasons:Simplified installation 
reduced costfewer connections so less chance for problems down the road
We've only ever had central AC, there are 4 main rooms in the house (900sqft 
remember) which all have ceiling fans so the cold air moves around good.
I was thinking: 
https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LS180HSV4-LS180HSV4-18000-BTU-20-SEER-Ductless-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump/51907.ac?catId=cat1028&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=68443:1.5%20Ton
It'll be awhile anyway, gotta put a roof on the place first.
-Curt

  From: Joel Cairo via Mercedes 
 To: mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Cc: Joel Cairo 
 Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 9:20 AM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question
   
It would mostly depend on how the house is laid out.  if it is fairly 
open I would do like a 24kBTU unit with 2x12k heads, put one in the 
living area and one in the bedroom.  If you have 2 bedrooms you would 
probably want to get 3 head units which might kick the outdoor unit up 
to 27k BTU.  My 4-head unit (which is currently dead, I think the 
control board has fried) is a 36k outdoor unit.

Here is an LG with 3x9k head units, 27k outdoor unit 
https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LMU24CHV-LSN090HSV4-LSN090HSV4-LSN090HSV4-27000-BTU-21-Seer-Heat-Pump/52414.ac?catId=cat1035&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=1004:LG

The units throttle output so that is the max they would be putting out, 
27k or 36k would probably be quite sufficient though in your climate you 
might need some backup heat for when it gets REALLY cold up there -- 
they don't have heat strips like the air blowing units.

--R


On 7/17/16 6:23 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
> Our house is 900sqft, what would you figured we'd need in a mini-split to 
> replace the wall mount AC we've got now? The wall mount cools the house fine, 
> I'm planning for when it dies.
> We're pretty well insulated, once I get the roof replaced we'll even up that 
> some more.
> -Curt
>
>        From: Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
>  To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Mitch Haley 
>  Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 5:15 PM
>  Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question
>    
>
> On July 17, 2016 at 4:33 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
>
>  It’s about 93F, humidity is near saturation at 78%, and the heat index is in 
>the 102F range. 100% sun exposure on the roof surface.
>
> The AC will run continuously from now until about 6:00 pm when the sun dips 
> below the treeline of the adjacent lot. It will maintain the 74F setpoint and 
> the temperature won’t go above that.
>
> So based on what you describe the system is working as intended and at or 
> near peak efficiency.
>
> Yep, it sounds like perfect design performance on a design afternoon.
> When you think it's too old, or when it quits, replace it with a 4 ton, 
> preferably two stage condenser. Fortunately, up here in the frosty North, 
> I've had about 5 cooling design afternoons all summer, and design temp is 
> only for 2-3 hours a day.
> And my house is enough smaller / better shaded / better insulated than yours 
> that I have no idea how hot it would have to get to make my 1.5 Ton unit run 
> 100% duty cycle. Design afternoons are close to 50% duty.
>
> Mitch.
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>
>
>
>    
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

This may offer a solution to our hot third floor office.  We need to cool
about900 sq. ft.  What is the installation cost?  Operating cost?

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I found this site: http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/hvac-sizing.html 
> which
> has a chart that suggests 1.5 ton (18kBTU) should be fine for where we are.
> I'd like to limit to one head for a couple reasons:Simplified
> installation reduced costfewer connections so less chance for problems down
> the road
> We've only ever had central AC, there are 4 main rooms in the house
> (900sqft remember) which all have ceiling fans so the cold air moves around
> good.
> I was thinking:
> https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LS180HSV4-LS180HSV4-18000-BTU-20-SEER-Ductless-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump/51907.ac?catId=cat1028&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=68443:1.5%20Ton
> It'll be awhile anyway, gotta put a roof on the place first.
> -Curt
>
>   From: Joel Cairo via Mercedes 
>  To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
> Cc: Joel Cairo 
>  Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 9:20 AM
>  Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question
>
> It would mostly depend on how the house is laid out.  if it is fairly
> open I would do like a 24kBTU unit with 2x12k heads, put one in the
> living area and one in the bedroom.  If you have 2 bedrooms you would
> probably want to get 3 head units which might kick the outdoor unit up
> to 27k BTU.  My 4-head unit (which is currently dead, I think the
> control board has fried) is a 36k outdoor unit.
>
> Here is an LG with 3x9k head units, 27k outdoor unit
>
> https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LMU24CHV-LSN090HSV4-LSN090HSV4-LSN090HSV4-27000-BTU-21-Seer-Heat-Pump/52414.ac?catId=cat1035&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=1004:LG
>
> The units throttle output so that is the max they would be putting out,
> 27k or 36k would probably be quite sufficient though in your climate you
> might need some backup heat for when it gets REALLY cold up there --
> they don't have heat strips like the air blowing units.
>
> --R
>
>
> On 7/17/16 6:23 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
> > Our house is 900sqft, what would you figured we'd need in a mini-split
> to replace the wall mount AC we've got now? The wall mount cools the house
> fine, I'm planning for when it dies.
> > We're pretty well insulated, once I get the roof replaced we'll even up
> that some more.
> > -Curt
> >
> >From: Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> >  To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> > Cc: Mitch Haley 
> >  Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 5:15 PM
> >  Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question
> >
> >
> > On July 17, 2016 at 4:33 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >  It’s about 93F, humidity is near saturation at 78%, and the heat index
> is in the 102F range. 100% sun exposure on the roof surface.
> >
> > The AC will run continuously from now until about 6:00 pm when the sun
> dips below the treeline of the adjacent lot. It will maintain the 74F
> setpoint and the temperature won’t go above that.
> >
> > So based on what you describe the system is working as intended and at
> or near peak efficiency.
> >
> > Yep, it sounds like perfect design performance on a design afternoon.
> > When you think it's too old, or when it quits, replace it with a 4 ton,
> preferably two stage condenser. Fortunately, up here in the frosty North,
> I've had about 5 cooling design afternoons all summer, and design temp is
> only for 2-3 hours a day.
> > And my house is enough smaller / better shaded / better insulated than
> yours that I have no idea how hot it would have to get to make my 1.5 Ton
> unit run 100% duty cycle. Design afternoons are close to 50% duty.
> >
> > Mitch.
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
> --
> --BB
>
>
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
>
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>
> To U

Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

If you do the install yourself then call an AC guy to pull down the 
vacuum, test for leaks, etc. and release the refrigerant and check 
operation, the cost is little more than buying the units, piping, 
disconnect, and support brackets, drilling a 2" hole through the wall, 
running lines, and mounting the indoor unit. You will need some power to 
run it so might have to run a line from your box.  If the electrical is 
not too bad you could get it put in one Saturday, then have your guy 
come Monday to charge it.


If you have to hire that all out, you could be looking at maybe 
$1000-$2000 over the cost of the units, which is crazy but that's how 
those guys make their money.


--JC


On 7/18/16 12:37 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

This may offer a solution to our hot third floor office.  We need to cool
about900 sq. ft.  What is the installation cost?  Operating cost?

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


I found this site: http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/hvac-sizing.html which
has a chart that suggests 1.5 ton (18kBTU) should be fine for where we are.
I'd like to limit to one head for a couple reasons:Simplified
installation reduced costfewer connections so less chance for problems down
the road
We've only ever had central AC, there are 4 main rooms in the house
(900sqft remember) which all have ceiling fans so the cold air moves around
good.
I was thinking:
https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LS180HSV4-LS180HSV4-18000-BTU-20-SEER-Ductless-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump/51907.ac?catId=cat1028&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=68443:1.5%20Ton
It'll be awhile anyway, gotta put a roof on the place first.
-Curt

   From: Joel Cairo via Mercedes 
  To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: Joel Cairo 
  Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 9:20 AM
  Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

It would mostly depend on how the house is laid out.  if it is fairly
open I would do like a 24kBTU unit with 2x12k heads, put one in the
living area and one in the bedroom.  If you have 2 bedrooms you would
probably want to get 3 head units which might kick the outdoor unit up
to 27k BTU.  My 4-head unit (which is currently dead, I think the
control board has fried) is a 36k outdoor unit.

Here is an LG with 3x9k head units, 27k outdoor unit

https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LMU24CHV-LSN090HSV4-LSN090HSV4-LSN090HSV4-27000-BTU-21-Seer-Heat-Pump/52414.ac?catId=cat1035&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=1004:LG

The units throttle output so that is the max they would be putting out,
27k or 36k would probably be quite sufficient though in your climate you
might need some backup heat for when it gets REALLY cold up there --
they don't have heat strips like the air blowing units.

--R


On 7/17/16 6:23 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

Our house is 900sqft, what would you figured we'd need in a mini-split

to replace the wall mount AC we've got now? The wall mount cools the house
fine, I'm planning for when it dies.

We're pretty well insulated, once I get the roof replaced we'll even up

that some more.

-Curt

From: Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
  To: Mercedes Discussion List 
Cc: Mitch Haley 
  Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 5:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question


On July 17, 2016 at 4:33 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes <

mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

  It’s about 93F, humidity is near saturation at 78%, and the heat index

is in the 102F range. 100% sun exposure on the roof surface.

The AC will run continuously from now until about 6:00 pm when the sun

dips below the treeline of the adjacent lot. It will maintain the 74F
setpoint and the temperature won’t go above that.

So based on what you describe the system is working as intended and at

or near peak efficiency.

Yep, it sounds like perfect design performance on a design afternoon.
When you think it's too old, or when it quits, replace it with a 4 ton,

preferably two stage condenser. Fortunately, up here in the frosty North,
I've had about 5 cooling design afternoons all summer, and design temp is
only for 2-3 hours a day.

And my house is enough smaller / better shaded / better insulated than

yours that I have no idea how hot it would have to get to make my 1.5 Ton
unit run 100% duty cycle. Design afternoons are close to 50% duty.

Mitch.

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To search

Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

How and where are the room cooling units typically mounted?

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Joel Cairo via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> If you do the install yourself then call an AC guy to pull down the
> vacuum, test for leaks, etc. and release the refrigerant and check
> operation, the cost is little more than buying the units, piping,
> disconnect, and support brackets, drilling a 2" hole through the wall,
> running lines, and mounting the indoor unit. You will need some power to
> run it so might have to run a line from your box.  If the electrical is not
> too bad you could get it put in one Saturday, then have your guy come
> Monday to charge it.
>
> If you have to hire that all out, you could be looking at maybe
> $1000-$2000 over the cost of the units, which is crazy but that's how those
> guys make their money.
>
> --JC
>
>
>
> On 7/18/16 12:37 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
>
>> This may offer a solution to our hot third floor office.  We need to cool
>> about900 sq. ft.  What is the installation cost?  Operating cost?
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>
>> I found this site: http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/hvac-sizing.html
>>> which
>>> has a chart that suggests 1.5 ton (18kBTU) should be fine for where we
>>> are.
>>> I'd like to limit to one head for a couple reasons:Simplified
>>> installation reduced costfewer connections so less chance for problems
>>> down
>>> the road
>>> We've only ever had central AC, there are 4 main rooms in the house
>>> (900sqft remember) which all have ceiling fans so the cold air moves
>>> around
>>> good.
>>> I was thinking:
>>>
>>> https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LS180HSV4-LS180HSV4-18000-BTU-20-SEER-Ductless-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump/51907.ac?catId=cat1028&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=68443:1.5%20Ton
>>> It'll be awhile anyway, gotta put a roof on the place first.
>>> -Curt
>>>
>>>From: Joel Cairo via Mercedes 
>>>   To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
>>> Cc: Joel Cairo 
>>>   Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 9:20 AM
>>>   Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question
>>>
>>> It would mostly depend on how the house is laid out.  if it is fairly
>>> open I would do like a 24kBTU unit with 2x12k heads, put one in the
>>> living area and one in the bedroom.  If you have 2 bedrooms you would
>>> probably want to get 3 head units which might kick the outdoor unit up
>>> to 27k BTU.  My 4-head unit (which is currently dead, I think the
>>> control board has fried) is a 36k outdoor unit.
>>>
>>> Here is an LG with 3x9k head units, 27k outdoor unit
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LMU24CHV-LSN090HSV4-LSN090HSV4-LSN090HSV4-27000-BTU-21-Seer-Heat-Pump/52414.ac?catId=cat1035&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=1004:LG
>>>
>>> The units throttle output so that is the max they would be putting out,
>>> 27k or 36k would probably be quite sufficient though in your climate you
>>> might need some backup heat for when it gets REALLY cold up there --
>>> they don't have heat strips like the air blowing units.
>>>
>>> --R
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/17/16 6:23 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:
>>>
>>>> Our house is 900sqft, what would you figured we'd need in a mini-split
>>>>
>>> to replace the wall mount AC we've got now? The wall mount cools the
>>> house
>>> fine, I'm planning for when it dies.
>>>
>>>> We're pretty well insulated, once I get the roof replaced we'll even up
>>>>
>>> that some more.
>>>
>>>> -Curt
>>>>
>>>> From: Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
>>>>   To: Mercedes Discussion List 
>>>> Cc: Mitch Haley 
>>>>   Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 5:15 PM
>>>>   Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On July 17, 2016 at 4:33 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
>>>>
>>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>   It’s about 93F, humidity is near saturation at 78%, and the heat index
>>>>
>>> is in the 102F range. 100% sun exposure on the roof surface.
>>>
>>>> The AC will run continuously from now until about 6:00 pm when the sun
>>>>
>>> dips

Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

You mount them on the wall up near the ceiling, they need 9" or so above 
for proper circulation (actually, sucking in air that then gets 
heated/cooled and blown out the bottom).  They have a metal bracket you 
screw into some studs, drill a 2" hole through the wall to the outside 
(or in my cases I ran the lines up the inside of the walls and up and 
over one ceiling) in the proper place for the refrigerant lines and 
drain and the wires that communicate with the outdoor unit.  The unit 
then just hangs on the bracket, they actually don't weigh much.  You'll 
want to pick a good spot to get the air circulating around the room.  
900 ft2 you might want 2 indoor units at opposite ends of the room or 
something just to get good coverage.


Then you run the lines from the outdoor unit up to the lines from the 
indoor unit that are sticking out the wall to the outside and connect 
those, secure everything to the walls (they have plastic chases you can 
buy to cover them if you want).


Mine you can adjust where the output blows, or have it sweep around and 
up and down, whatever suits.


I find in the winter it helps to have a ceiling fan going slowly to keep 
the warm air circulated.  When cooling you don't want that so much.


--JC


On 7/18/16 1:20 PM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote:

How and where are the room cooling units typically mounted?

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Joel Cairo via Mercedes 
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:


If you do the install yourself then call an AC guy to pull down
the vacuum, test for leaks, etc. and release the refrigerant and
check operation, the cost is little more than buying the units,
piping, disconnect, and support brackets, drilling a 2" hole
through the wall, running lines, and mounting the indoor unit. You
will need some power to run it so might have to run a line from
your box.  If the electrical is not too bad you could get it put
in one Saturday, then have your guy come Monday to charge it.

If you have to hire that all out, you could be looking at maybe
$1000-$2000 over the cost of the units, which is crazy but that's
how those guys make their money.

--JC



On 7/18/16 12:37 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

This may offer a solution to our hot third floor office.  We
need to cool
about900 sq. ft.  What is the installation cost? Operating cost?

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:

I found this site:
http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/hvac-sizing.html which
has a chart that suggests 1.5 ton (18kBTU) should be fine
for where we are.
I'd like to limit to one head for a couple reasons:Simplified
installation reduced costfewer connections so less chance
for problems down
the road
We've only ever had central AC, there are 4 main rooms in
the house
(900sqft remember) which all have ceiling fans so the cold
air moves around
good.
I was thinking:

https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LS180HSV4-LS180HSV4-18000-BTU-20-SEER-Ductless-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump/51907.ac?catId=cat1028&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=68443:1.5%20Ton
It'll be awhile anyway, gotta put a roof on the place first.
-Curt

   From: Joel Cairo via Mercedes
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>
  To: mercedes@okiebenz.com <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
Cc: Joel Cairo mailto:buggeredbenzm...@gmail.com>>
  Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 9:20 AM
  Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

It would mostly depend on how the house is laid out.  if
it is fairly
open I would do like a 24kBTU unit with 2x12k heads, put
one in the
living area and one in the bedroom.  If you have 2
bedrooms you would
probably want to get 3 head units which might kick the
outdoor unit up
to 27k BTU.  My 4-head unit (which is currently dead, I
think the
control board has fried) is a 36k outdoor unit.

Here is an LG with 3x9k head units, 27k outdoor unit


https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LMU24CHV-LSN090HSV4-LSN090HSV4-LSN090HSV4-27000-BTU-21-Seer-Heat-Pump/52414.ac?catId=cat1035&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=1004:LG

The units throttle output so that is the max they would be
putting out,
27k or 36k would probably be quite sufficient though in
your climate you
might need some backup heat for when it gets REALLY cold
up there --

Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

Thanks - very clear.

The workers just finished mounting 55 285-watt Suniva solar panels on the
roof so I may wait awhile for the system to get turned on and sort itself
out before adding an additional layer of complexity.

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Joel Cairo via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> You mount them on the wall up near the ceiling, they need 9" or so above
> for proper circulation (actually, sucking in air that then gets
> heated/cooled and blown out the bottom).  They have a metal bracket you
> screw into some studs, drill a 2" hole through the wall to the outside (or
> in my cases I ran the lines up the inside of the walls and up and over one
> ceiling) in the proper place for the refrigerant lines and drain and the
> wires that communicate with the outdoor unit.  The unit then just hangs on
> the bracket, they actually don't weigh much.  You'll want to pick a good
> spot to get the air circulating around the room.  900 ft2 you might want 2
> indoor units at opposite ends of the room or something just to get good
> coverage.
>
> Then you run the lines from the outdoor unit up to the lines from the
> indoor unit that are sticking out the wall to the outside and connect
> those, secure everything to the walls (they have plastic chases you can buy
> to cover them if you want).
>
> Mine you can adjust where the output blows, or have it sweep around and up
> and down, whatever suits.
>
> I find in the winter it helps to have a ceiling fan going slowly to keep
> the warm air circulated.  When cooling you don't want that so much.
>
> --JC
>
>
> On 7/18/16 1:20 PM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
>
>> How and where are the room cooling units typically mounted?
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Joel Cairo via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
>>
>> If you do the install yourself then call an AC guy to pull down
>> the vacuum, test for leaks, etc. and release the refrigerant and
>> check operation, the cost is little more than buying the units,
>> piping, disconnect, and support brackets, drilling a 2" hole
>> through the wall, running lines, and mounting the indoor unit. You
>> will need some power to run it so might have to run a line from
>> your box.  If the electrical is not too bad you could get it put
>> in one Saturday, then have your guy come Monday to charge it.
>>
>> If you have to hire that all out, you could be looking at maybe
>> $1000-$2000 over the cost of the units, which is crazy but that's
>> how those guys make their money.
>>
>> --JC
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/18/16 12:37 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
>>
>> This may offer a solution to our hot third floor office.  We
>> need to cool
>> about900 sq. ft.  What is the installation cost? Operating cost?
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I found this site:
>> http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/hvac-sizing.html which
>> has a chart that suggests 1.5 ton (18kBTU) should be fine
>> for where we are.
>> I'd like to limit to one head for a couple reasons:Simplified
>> installation reduced costfewer connections so less chance
>> for problems down
>> the road
>> We've only ever had central AC, there are 4 main rooms in
>> the house
>> (900sqft remember) which all have ceiling fans so the cold
>> air moves around
>> good.
>> I was thinking:
>>
>> https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LS180HSV4-LS180HSV4-18000-BTU-20-SEER-Ductless-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump/51907.ac?catId=cat1028&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=68443:1.5%20Ton
>> It'll be awhile anyway, gotta put a roof on the place first.
>> -Curt
>>
>>From: Joel Cairo via Mercedes
>> mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>
>>   To: mercedes@okiebenz.com <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
>> Cc: Joel Cairo > <mailto:buggeredbenzm...@gmail.com>>
>>
>>   Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 9:20 AM
>>   Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question
>>
>> It would mostly depend on how the house is laid out.  if
>>

Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

2016-07-18 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes

15+KWH, thats a big system. Is it grid tied or do you have monster set of 
batteries too?
-Curt

  From: Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes 
 To: Mercedes Discussion List  
Cc: Andrew Strasfogel 
 Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 3:07 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question
   
Thanks - very clear.

The workers just finished mounting 55 285-watt Suniva solar panels on the
roof so I may wait awhile for the system to get turned on and sort itself
out before adding an additional layer of complexity.

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Joel Cairo via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> You mount them on the wall up near the ceiling, they need 9" or so above
> for proper circulation (actually, sucking in air that then gets
> heated/cooled and blown out the bottom).  They have a metal bracket you
> screw into some studs, drill a 2" hole through the wall to the outside (or
> in my cases I ran the lines up the inside of the walls and up and over one
> ceiling) in the proper place for the refrigerant lines and drain and the
> wires that communicate with the outdoor unit.  The unit then just hangs on
> the bracket, they actually don't weigh much.  You'll want to pick a good
> spot to get the air circulating around the room.  900 ft2 you might want 2
> indoor units at opposite ends of the room or something just to get good
> coverage.
>
> Then you run the lines from the outdoor unit up to the lines from the
> indoor unit that are sticking out the wall to the outside and connect
> those, secure everything to the walls (they have plastic chases you can buy
> to cover them if you want).
>
> Mine you can adjust where the output blows, or have it sweep around and up
> and down, whatever suits.
>
> I find in the winter it helps to have a ceiling fan going slowly to keep
> the warm air circulated.  When cooling you don't want that so much.
>
> --JC
>
>
> On 7/18/16 1:20 PM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote:
>
>> How and where are the room cooling units typically mounted?
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Joel Cairo via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
>>
>>    If you do the install yourself then call an AC guy to pull down
>>    the vacuum, test for leaks, etc. and release the refrigerant and
>>    check operation, the cost is little more than buying the units,
>>    piping, disconnect, and support brackets, drilling a 2" hole
>>    through the wall, running lines, and mounting the indoor unit. You
>>    will need some power to run it so might have to run a line from
>>    your box.  If the electrical is not too bad you could get it put
>>    in one Saturday, then have your guy come Monday to charge it.
>>
>>    If you have to hire that all out, you could be looking at maybe
>>    $1000-$2000 over the cost of the units, which is crazy but that's
>>    how those guys make their money.
>>
>>    --JC
>>
>>
>>
>>    On 7/18/16 12:37 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:
>>
>>        This may offer a solution to our hot third floor office.  We
>>        need to cool
>>        about900 sq. ft.  What is the installation cost? Operating cost?
>>
>>        On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
>>        mercedes@okiebenz.com <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>> wrote:
>>
>>            I found this site:
>>            http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/hvac-sizing.html which
>>            has a chart that suggests 1.5 ton (18kBTU) should be fine
>>            for where we are.
>>            I'd like to limit to one head for a couple reasons:Simplified
>>            installation reduced costfewer connections so less chance
>>            for problems down
>>            the road
>>            We've only ever had central AC, there are 4 main rooms in
>>            the house
>>            (900sqft remember) which all have ceiling fans so the cold
>>            air moves around
>>            good.
>>            I was thinking:
>>
>> https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LS180HSV4-LS180HSV4-18000-BTU-20-SEER-Ductless-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump/51907.ac?catId=cat1028&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=68443:1.5%20Ton
>>            It'll be awhile anyway, gotta put a roof on the place first.
>>            -Curt
>>
>>                    From: Joel Cairo via Mercedes
>>            mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>
>>              To: mercedes@okiebenz.com <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
>>            Cc: Joel Cairo >            <mailto:buggeredbenzm...@gmail.com>>
>&g

Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

amp;subCat=&trail=68443:1.5%20Ton
It'll be awhile anyway, gotta put a roof on the
place first.
-Curt

   From: Joel Cairo via Mercedes
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com
<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>>
  To: mercedes@okiebenz.com
<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com
<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>
Cc: Joel Cairo mailto:buggeredbenzm...@gmail.com>
<mailto:buggeredbenzm...@gmail.com
        <mailto:buggeredbenzm...@gmail.com>>>

  Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 9:20 AM
  Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

It would mostly depend on how the house is laid
out.  if
it is fairly
open I would do like a 24kBTU unit with 2x12k
heads, put
one in the
living area and one in the bedroom.  If you have 2
bedrooms you would
probably want to get 3 head units which might kick the
outdoor unit up
to 27k BTU.  My 4-head unit (which is currently
dead, I
think the
control board has fried) is a 36k outdoor unit.

Here is an LG with 3x9k head units, 27k outdoor unit

https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LMU24CHV-LSN090HSV4-LSN090HSV4-LSN090HSV4-27000-BTU-21-Seer-Heat-Pump/52414.ac?catId=cat1035&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=1004:LG

The units throttle output so that is the max they
would be
putting out,
27k or 36k would probably be quite sufficient
though in
your climate you
might need some backup heat for when it gets
REALLY cold
up there --
they don't have heat strips like the air blowing
units.

--R

On 7/17/16 6:23 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

Our house is 900sqft, what would you figured
we'd need
in a mini-split

to replace the wall mount AC we've got now? The
wall mount
cools the house
fine, I'm planning for when it dies.

We're pretty well insulated, once I get the roof
replaced we'll even up

that some more.

-Curt

From: Mitch Haley via Mercedes
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com
<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>>
  To: Mercedes Discussion List
mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com
<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>>
Cc: Mitch Haley mailto:mi...@mitchellhaley.com>
<mailto:mi...@mitchellhaley.com
<mailto:mi...@mitchellhaley.com>>>
  Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 5:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question

On July 17, 2016 at 4:33 PM Dan Penoff via
Mercedes <

mercedes@okiebenz.com <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>
<mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com>>>
wrote:

  It’s about 93F, humidity is near saturation
at 78%,
and the heat index

is in the 102F range. 100% sun exposure on the
roof surface.

The AC will run continuously from now until
about 6:00
pm when the sun

dips below the treeline of the adjacent lot. It will
maintain the 74F
setpoint and the temperature won’t go above that.

So based on what you describe the system is
working as
intended and at

or near peak efficiency.

Yep, it sounds like perfect design performance
on a
design afternoon.
When you think it's too old, or when it quits,
replace
it with a 4 ton,

preferably two stage condenser. Fortunately, up
here in
the frosty North,
I've had about 5 cooling design afternoons all
summe

Re: [MBZ] OT - Home AC Question