[Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]
To everyone reading (and answering) this subject: The guy is trolling. We are all going into his troll. (This is proven by the fact that he just *wont* stop.) Trolling is a technique used on the News lists since long time. Sometimes with disastrous result for the list. It's been quite rare on mailing lists, but it's coming more and more. We need to start reacting in the same manner as they have done on most news lists: There is only one way of escaping a list troll. To ignore it. Unfortunately, it requires *everyone* on the list to start ignoring the subject at the same time, which is not always so easy. There is always someone who is still upset about something and the stuff goes on and on and... So, please everyone reading this subject; STOP. Mind you, I do not tell you to ignore all posts from him. Just don't react to anything that upsets you. If you want to react, then write a *private* e-mail directly to him. *Not* on the list. If everyone can follow this, the list will calm down again. Best regards Gustav inux -- The *ultimate* NT Service Pack. Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
[Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]
At 03:53 PM 6/6/99 +0200, you wrote: To everyone reading (and answering) this subject: The guy is trolling. We are all going into his troll. (This is proven by the fact that he just *wont* stop.) I agree, he's trolling. He claimed to be a programmer, but then over and over he claimed that bugs should *always* be caught in testing, prior to release. That proves he's lying, because no programmer can believe that happens in the real world. Shoot, I wouldn't think any computer user, much less programmer, would believe that. I'd been about to cuss him out prior to realizing that he was a troll. Maybe we'll get lucky and his ISP will screw him again... :^) --- Stephen Whitis Visit http://www.whitis.com for information about Delphi, NT4.0 software, Juggling, or darn near anything else I happen to be interested in. Don't spam me, and I won't report your spam. Spam me, and all bets are off. Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
RE: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]
From: Gustav Schaffter The guy is trolling. We are all going into his troll. (This is proven by the fact that he just *wont* stop.) Amen to that. No one can possibly thing that *everything* works from their point of view and everyone else's view is wrong or unimportant. I would think that anyone with a modicum of tact or sense would now apologise to George for what he said, but that would put an end to the troll, wouldn't it? You're offering good advice Gustav, I'm out of this discussion for good. Rick. - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alienshore.com/ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: [Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]
I second that. At 16:33 06/06/1999 +0100, you wrote: NO MORE. The end.. Chris Jefferson, Girton College, Cambridge, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have a proof that x^n+y^n=z^n never has integer solutions for n2. However, it won't fit into my signature file Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: [[Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]]
Stephen Whitis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He claimed to be a programmer, but then over and over he claimed that bugs should *always* be caught in testing, prior to release. That proves he's lying, because no programmer can believe that happens in the real world. A complete set of test-cases should catch all major (e.g. showstopper) bugs. If a bug of such magnitude makes it into a release product testing cannot have been thorough. And someone admitted that testing for v.17 was in fact not thorough, as the routines that kick in above 2^22 never were tested since the test suite didn't include an exponent above 2^22. Maybe we'll get lucky and his ISP will screw him again... :^) You should grow like a turnip, with your head in the ground and your legs in the air. Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: [Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]
Peter Doherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is normal. Because of the bug in v17, all the math it was doing was wrong, so using that 77% would have been a waste since it was incorrect data. There is no need to try and retrieve that data. It's useless. Are you sure of that? What if the bug didn't happen to strike my run, or the errors could be corrected? If what you say is true, then whoever designed version 17 acted in a completely unconscionably rash manner by releasing it without thoroughly testing it for problems as serious as that. And has therefore shot the whole GIMPS effort in the foot by setting it back many weeks. Hopefully, realization of the impact on GIMPS is punishment enough to make sure this won't happen again... Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18
If what you say is true, then whoever designed version 17 acted in a completely unconscionably rash manner by releasing it without thoroughly testing it for problems as serious as that. And has therefore shot the whole GIMPS effort in the foot by setting it back many weeks. Hopefully, realization of the impact on GIMPS is punishment enough to make sure this won't happen again... On the other hand, it is often difficult to find out when trying to squeeze speed out of programs if you've gone too far, and the only way to test the program is the do entire LL tests in both this and another program we are sure works.. Doing it for more than a couple of exponents is VERY slow... Although I do agree, I hope that it doesn't happen again.. Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: [Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]
Well, you've dropped the annoying Mandelbrot quote, but you're still trying to stir up trouble on my favorite mailing list. In a message dated 6/5/99 10:27:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Are you sure of that? What if the bug didn't happen to strike my run, or the errors could be corrected? Evidently you haven't been monitoring the list. The version 18 software was DESIGNED, immediately after the bug was found, to determine whether any given run contained corrupt data. Errors mounted with each and every iteration, making "correction" impossible and worthless anyway. If what you say is true, then whoever designed version 17 acted in a completely unconscionably rash manner by releasing it without thoroughly testing it for problems as serious as that. And has therefore shot the whole GIMPS effort in the foot by setting it back many weeks. More inflammatory statements showing your non-monitoring of the mailing list. George made COPIOUS apologies REPEATEDLY when the bug was found. If you think his behavior is unconsionable, you are welcome to withdraw from the project. Remember that 100% of this effort is volunteer. Hopefully, realization of the impact on GIMPS is punishment enough to make sure this won't happen again... Hopefully, you'll get a clue and stop being so insulting. I don't hold out a whole lot of hope though. Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: [Re: [Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, you've dropped the annoying Mandelbrot quote, but you're still trying to stir up trouble on my favorite mailing list. I'm not trying to stir up trouble. However, between your insulting of my sig file (absent temporarily, due to my ISP's mail trouble and my consequently being stuck with usa.net's crummy web interface) and your accusing me of flame-baiting, I begin to suspect that you, who I formerly had not even noticed, are in fact trying to flame-bait the list. I think that is a bad idea. This list is a good thing and causing a flamewar on it will be a bad thing. In the interests of not allowing a flamewar to start, I shall henceforth not respond to anything you post that appears to have inflammatory intent. I recommend that everyone else do likewise. Then there won't be any flamewars. Of course, if I have misunderstood your intentions, you presumably won't post anything else inflammatory, and the foregoing will be rendered moot. Evidently you haven't been monitoring the list. No thanks to Globalserve... Errors mounted with each and every iteration, making "correction" impossible and worthless anyway. A problem of such magnitude should have been caught a lot sooner... but I repeat myself. George made COPIOUS apologies REPEATEDLY when the bug was found. Well, no thanks to my ISP, I was not aware of this. [Various inflammatory stuff deleted.] Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
RE: [Re: [Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]]
From: Paul Derbyshire and your accusing me of flame-baiting, I begin to suspect that you, who I formerly had not even noticed, are in fact trying to flame-bait the list. I don't think that anyone's trying to flame anyone at all, but I can't Evidently you haven't been monitoring the list. No thanks to Globalserve... Well that's not the list's fault, not is it George's or Scott's so might it not be a good idea to ask to be apprised of the situation before accusing the very people who make all this possible of being "completely unconscionably rash." Not only would've it prevented that egg on your face, but it's just plain courteous. A problem of such magnitude should have been caught a lot sooner... but I repeat myself. Yea, you sure do. I'd consider the software that the project has produced as *outstanding* when compared to the commercial norm. And even when a single problem has occurred, there was a fix within a day or two. It's a pipe-dream with software that we pay hundreds of dollars for...and we can download this stuff for free. After two years, I've only lost two numbers (that weren't my fault). With a record like that, the reasonable among us have nothing at all to complain about. And if 100% accuracy is what you demand, Ken has extended an invitation to you to join the testing team. George made COPIOUS apologies REPEATEDLY when the bug was found. Well, no thanks to my ISP, I was not aware of this. We're got nothing at all to do with that, and you can't claim that your ISP has anything to do with what you've written since your return either. Like the previous poster said, George obviously regretted the error, felt bad about it, and apologised repeatedly. I don't think that he deserves to be called to the carpet for it so long after the fact. Rick. - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alienshore.com/ Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: [Re: [Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]]
Paul Derbyshire wrote: Sounds like a lot to me. This CPU I have can finish LL tests in that kind of time, except that I have a habit of using it for other things a lot of the time. It may seem like a long time to you, but I've been interested in Mersenne Primes as an observer since around 1978-9, and as a participant in GIMPS before primenet, back when exponents were more like 700,000 rather than 7,000,000, which has been what, 3, 4 years? Moreover, George and Scott have always been very clear and forthright about what's going on in GIMPS/Primenet. I've never met George and Scott in person, but I've dealt with them in regard to GIMPS/Primenet, and I want to take this opportunity to say publically that they are a primary reason that almost all my idle cycles remain dedicated to the GIMPS. --Joe Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
RE: [Re: [Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]]
All, alright, everybody break it up! Well, you've dropped the annoying Mandelbrot quote, but you're still trying to stir up trouble on my favorite mailing list. I'm not trying to stir up trouble. However, between your insulting of my sig file (absent temporarily, due to my ISP's mail trouble and my consequently being stuck with usa.net's crummy web interface) and your accusing me of flame-baiting, I begin to suspect that you, who I formerly had not even noticed, are in fact trying to flame-bait the list. I doubt that anyone was trying to flame-bait, [EMAIL PROTECTED] was mearly over-reacting to Paul Derbyshire's over-reacting to a software bug. Hey, I understand on both counts. Most of us deeply respect George as a brilliant organizer, and (at the very least) a very competent programmer, as well as very good leader of a *fun* and *volunteer* project. Here are my ideas on bugs: Bugs happen! They're a fact of life, omnipresent in all software. Bugs should allways be caught in the testing, but so often they aren't. In the meantime, a subgroup of testers have been created which should (hopefully) ensure that things like this cannot take place again. a) This incident was well discussed when the bug was detected about 9 weeks ago. I wasn't there then. Because of my F---ING ISP and their worthless mail system... Ok, hopefully, you can see how your remarks seemed especially inflamatory, as well as rude and stupid to someone without this knowledge. However, now that we all have this knowledge about your email, your remarks seem more reasonable, just an over-reaction. and remember, A debugged program is one for which you have not yet found the conditions that make it fail. -- Jerry Ogdin -Lucas Wiman Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: [RE: [Re: [Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]]]
"Rick Pali" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think that anyone's trying to flame anyone at all, but I can't [the rest is missing] ??? ... might it not be a good idea to ask to be apprised of the situation before accusing the very people who make all this possible of being "completely unconscionably rash." Erm? Regardless of when I found out, it remains a fact that to release non-beta software to the general public without a thorough testing *is* a rash act. And even when a single problem has occurred, there was a fix within a day or two. Yeah. But with spectacular showstopper bugs, that is still locking the barn door after the horses have escaped. Spectacular showstopper bugs shouldn't ever make it into a release product... testing (alpha or beta) should be able to catch all of those. I don't think that he deserves to be called to the carpet for it so long after the fact. From my point of view, it isn't "long after the fact". It was yesterday. Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
RE: [Re: [Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]]
Paul Derbyshire wrote: Sounds like a lot to me. This CPU I have can finish LL tests in that kind of time, except that I have a habit of using it for other things a lot of the time. It may seem like a long time to you, but I've been interested in Mersenne Primes as an observer since around 1978-9, and as a participant in GIMPS before primenet, back when exponents were more like 700,000 rather than 7,000,000, which has been what, 3, 4 years? Moreover, George and Scott have always been very clear and forthright about what's going on in GIMPS/Primenet. I've never met George and Scott in person, but I've dealt with them in regard to GIMPS/Primenet, and I want to take this opportunity to say publically that they are a primary reason that almost all my idle cycles remain dedicated to the GIMPS. I also, as someone whose been in GIMPS since nearly the beginning, don't consider a few weeks of lost time to be very much. I run NTPrime/Prime95 on anywhere from 30-50 processors at any given time. The version 17.x bug was annoying, and I had a few machines that were just about finished. But it's not a big deal. I just started over. Cumulatively, I probably wasted nearly a couple P-90 CPU years, but so what? I do this for fun...before there was any prize, whether I'm able to run on just 1 machine or several thousand :-) or whether I'm doing just factoring work, double-checks, or LL tests (or a healthy mix of all 3). If losing a few weeks work is so upsetting, perhaps you should examine your motivation. Just my $0.02 worth... Aaron Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: [RE: [Re: [Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]]]
Here are my ideas on bugs: Bugs happen! They're a fact of life, omnipresent in all software. Showstopper bugs should not slip through testing and into release software. Bugs should allways be caught in the testing, but so often they aren't. Minor bugs yes, massive showstoppers no. In the meantime, a subgroup of testers have been created which should (hopefully) ensure that things like this cannot take place again. Yes... a good idea. With a shiny new lock on that barn door, perhaps these horses won't escape a second time and cost GIMPS hundreds of P90-years of time... I still think it would have been a good idea to have had this lock from the outset. But it's water under the bridge... Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: [RE: [Re: [Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]]]
My motivation is to help. This spectacular bug caused some of my help to have been wasted. Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: [RE: [Re: [Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18]]]
On Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 11:07:04PM -0600, Paul Derbyshire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erm? Regardless of when I found out, it remains a fact that to release non-beta software to the general public without a thorough testing *is* a rash act. The software *was* tested - the testing missed this particular problem. The testing has been improved since then - if you'd like to help it improve even more you're been invited to contribute. George has apologized, at length. Another prime has (most likely, double-check pending) been found. The world continues to turn. From my point of view, it isn't "long after the fact". It was yesterday. Yay you. Can we let this topic drop now? Bryan -- Bryan Fullertonhttp://www.samurai.com/ Core Competency Samurai Consulting "No, we don't do seppuku." Can you feel the Ohmu call? Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
Re: Mersenne: Serious problems with v.18
This is normal. Because of the bug in v17, all the math it was doing was wrong, so using that 77% would have been a waste since it was incorrect data. There is no need to try and retrieve that data. It's useless. --Peter At 04:11 06/04/1999 -0600, you wrote: Before the upgrade, I was 77% of the way through an exponent in the 7M area. Now it says 0%. It looks like it couldn't read older versions' save files and started over! How do I recover that 77%? (I assume it would have to be checked to see if the version 17 error struck it, and either corrected or discarded if it had...) Unsubscribe list info -- http://www.scruz.net/~luke/signup.htm
