Re: [uf-discuss] Human and machine readable data format
Another example of a form with Japanese Era Calendar http://urakoma.com/bbs.html following the character "年" there is a drop down menu where you can choose an era or the gregorian calendar. 明治 大正 昭和 平成 西暦19 西暦20 -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Human and machine readable data format
Le 15 juil. 2008 à 11:16, Scott Reynen a écrit : Do you have any examples of the non-Gregorian dates being published online? Or any examples of applications that can take non-Gregorian dates as input? For those who need to understand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_era_name The era system is very common on paper form, and on labels in supermarket at least (for those I have noticed in my daily life in Japan). In fact it is a mix, it is not regular. Some forms have even the possibility to deal with the two systems. It is mostly used by officials organizations like governments. For example this article in one of the main national newspapers: Yomiuri 「平成20年度（第１回）超長期住宅先導的モデル事業 の採択事業」 http://home.yomiuri.co.jp/wnews/20080711hg03.htm 平成20年 - this is the year 20 of Heisei Era. The sentence says the project started at this date. You will notice that the article has also dates in gregorian calendar, so it mixes both. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Human and machine readable data format
Le 3 juil. 2008 à 01:36, Guillaume Lebleu a écrit : In other words, if I want to write my date in French in an en-us html document, I'd have to attach lang="fr" to my date or its containing content, […] Do you still see this as dangerous practice? not dangerous but unpractical in the case of editions through web forms. Because of the state of art of browser implementations, there is no real and interoperable editing tool in the browser context. I guess it's one of the major blows for interesting authoring on the Web, now. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Human and machine readable data format
Le 1 juil. 2008 à 12:50, Scott Reynen a écrit : If HTML offered us a @metadata attribute, I think we'd do something like this: 6/30/08 * HTML 5 6/30/08 * RDFa 6/30/08. If you are using XHTML 1.1+RDFa (served as application/xhtml+xml) and you want it to be valid. "http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd "> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"; xmlns:cal="http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ical#"; xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"; xml:lang="en"> or simply http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"; xmlns:cal="http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/ical#"; xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"; xml:lang="en"> -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats and RDFa not as far apart as previously thought
Le 28 juin 2008 à 22:16, Dan Brickley a écrit : I don't have stats handy but I doubt this can be dismissed as a corner-case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_calendar#The_relevance_of_the_calendar_today suggests this is also an issue in China. The imperial era calendar is used on many forms in Japan. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Unjust banning of Andy Mabbett
Le 18 mars 2008 à 07:27, John Allsopp a écrit : there might be cultural reasons for that. I for myself have bitten my tongue, as I've found these discussions tend to produce negative outcomes. But I'd suggest that lack of piping up on this form is not entirely evidence that people don't care. for what is worth, same here. Silence doesn't mean lack of understanding or care for the topic. I mostly agree with what Manu said. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] And Nerds Became Kings...
Le 14 mars 2008 à 02:53, Ben Ward a écrit : If anyone wants to quick-fire any burning questions at me then go for it, I'll make the guys aware of what people want to know. In the coming weeks, we'll be releasing more detailed specifications that will describe our support of semantic web standards. Initially, we plan to support a number of microformats, including hCard, hCalendar, hReview, hAtom, and XFN. Yahoo! Search will work with the web community to evolve the vocabulary framework for embedding structured data. For starters, we plan to support vocabulary components from Dublin Core, Creative Commons, FOAF, GeoRSS, MediaRSS, and others based on feedback. And, we will support RDFa and eRDF markup to embed these into existing HTML pages. Finally, we are announcing support for the OpenSearch specification, with extensions for structured queries to deep web data sources. -- http://www.ysearchblog.com/archives/000527.html See Open Search Specification http://www.opensearch.org/ http://www.opensearch.org/Community/OpenSearch_software -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] XTiger Templating Language and Microformats
Hi, just to share that there are two articles talking about XTiger templating language. The purpose of the language is to do structure editing, one of the articles is focused on microformats and XTiger. See Templating Language for Authoring Tools http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/03/web-templating-language XTiger is implemented in Amaya. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Apple Data Detectors
just FYI Le 6 févr. 2008 à 08:01, Guillaume Lebleu a écrit : Asking people to write "Tuesday, February 5, 2008" in this order, with the commas, etc. is very likely even simpler for normal people than writing Tuesday, February 5, 2008. I have tested in French, Japanese and English, and it works. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Dec/0114 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Dec/0115 In Japanese though, they do not handle era patterns which is commonly used in Japan. I filed a bug report about it. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Dublin Core as a microformat (was: Re: xfn and biographies)
Le 31 janv. 2008 à 05:20, Andy Mabbett a écrit : and, since there is clearly a schema already in existence, a piece of hidden metadata such as: "hidden" "hidden" easily becomes publishable as: Acme Inc. "hidden" visible Just the name becomes visible for people. There are meta names which are useful, let's be careful before throwing the baby with the water of the bath. are both used by Spotlight for example for indexing documents on Mac Os X. That is very practical. There are also used by many search engines indexers. It would be good to make a survey of what of Dublin Core is implemented in which products in terms of authoring and indexing. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML
Le 18 janv. 2008 à 09:03, Kevin Burton a écrit : On could perform such an audit with hAtom published values. Either that or use the RSS timestamp or timestamp in the URL. hmm maybe an intermediate possibility, Timestamp of domain creation. whois microformats.org Created On:26-Jan-2005 04:13:04 UTC Last Updated On:02-Nov-2007 05:19:18 UTC Expiration Date:26-Jan-2008 04:13:04 UTC Often (not always) Web sites use a common publishing system for the whole site. Domains creation then come with a publishing system which generates a kind of HTML which "should" be the same for all URLs of this domain. A lot of bias too, but just another way to constraint the data set. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] stats on well formed XHTML
Le 17 janv. 2008 à 19:22, Nick Fitzsimons a écrit : I can't imagine that things have got any better since :-( to really evaluate this, there are two parameters to take into account. nb of xhtml pages - [now] nb of total pages but in my humble opinion, more interesting would be to have this ratio for each year with *only the new pages* created during the year. Unfortunately because there is no uniform way to sign the date of pages, and because HTTP is even a worse shape than HTML, it is almost impossible to evaluate. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCard: url and tel
Le 6 janv. 2008 à 12:34, Katrina a écrit : Q2. Would it be possible to do something like this, instead? Phone Just to make it clear. This is a valid HTML construct. So you can do it. I do not think it is understood by a microformat extractor (if it matters to you) -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] using namespace
Le 23 nov. 2007 à 23:14, Tatsuya Noyori a écrit : I would like to suggest that microformats use namespace like the following example. I think microformats need namespace to ensure interoperability. You can use RDFa, that will make it possible http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-rdfa-primer/ RDFa Bookmarklet http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/rdfa-bookmarklet/ RDFa Extractor http://torrez.us/rdfa/ RDFa Implementations http://rdfa.info/rdfa-implementations/ -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] IMDb contact wanted (for advocacy)
Andy Mabbett (31 août 2007 - 23:18) : I'd like to do some advocacy work with the Internet Movie Database, but they don't advertise any useful contacts on their website. Does anyone have one? I'm not sure the initial owners are still working on it from Amazon. The first web version of the database went live on the servers at Cardiff University in Wales. There is a fun bit of e-mail dating back to those days between web interface author, Rob Hartill, and Col Needham, both impressed when the web interface got 100 accesses in a single day. Prior to the latest redesign, the IMDb website has been serving an average of 65 million accesses from over 3.5 million visitors every month. With the improvements and new features added in the redesign, this could well go higher. -- IMDb History http://www.imdb.com/help/show_leaf?history Mon, 03 Sep 2007 02:06:06 GMT Then on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Hartill "He's currently a volunteer fire-fighter with the Country Fire Service and a hobby farmer." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Col_Needham "currently is the managing director of the Internet Movie Database." The access to the full database is available on IMDB Web site, and usable only with a very limited license. http://www.imdb.com/interfaces -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Re: dfn design pattern (proposal)
Brian Suda (21 août 2007 - 18:47) : On 8/21/07, Edward O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In the interest of forward-compatibility, I think using dfn/@title is a bad idea. The HTML 5 draft goes into much more detail about then any previous HTML version, specifying both how to find the 's term, and how to find the relevant for some use of the term elsewhere in the document. --- i wouldn't worry too much about HTML5. The definition of [HTML 5 dfn][1] is not incompatible with [HTML 4 dfn][2] It is just a better definition, less vague. For the record, XHTML 2 WD gives another interesting pattern for [XHTML 2 dfn][3] with the attribute role. Though as you said html 5 is only an *editor* draft for now. [1]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#the-dfn [2]: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#edef-DFN [3]: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-text.html#edef_text_dfn -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] birthday versus birthdate
Le 1 août 2007 à 10:05, Scott Reynen a écrit : I think this just reinforces what Charles said: the anniversary celebration of an event is not the same as the event. In this case, birthday anniversaries are celebrated on New Year, but that doesn't mean everyone's birthday nor date of birth is New Year. Similarly, in America we often celebrate former Presidents' birthdays on days that are not actually their birthdays. But no one says the birthday changes every year; only the celebration changes. I have at least two korean friends who uses the word "birthdate" for what you say is an "event celebration". :) I was just pointing out that birthday != birthdate for some people. That's all (back to my normal sleeping mode) -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] birthday versus birthdate
Le 1 août 2007 à 08:03, Karl Dubost a écrit : Le 31 juil. 2007 à 08:21, Charles Iliya Krempeaux a écrit : Actually... AFAIK... your birthday and your date of birth are the same thing. (And they both have a year.) Not in Korea at least. I was writing this in the commuting train without internet access. East Asian age reckoning is a concept that originated in China and is used in East Asian countries. Several East Asian cultures, such as Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese, share a traditional way of counting a person's age. Newborns start at one year old, and each passing of a New Year, rather than the birthday, adds one year to the person's age; this results in people usually being between 1-2 years older in Asian reckoning than in the Western version. This system is still widely used in China and is used universally in Korea, with exceptions to the legal system. However, its use is less common in other countries. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_age_reckoning -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] birthday versus birthdate
Le 31 juil. 2007 à 08:21, Charles Iliya Krempeaux a écrit : Actually... AFAIK... your birthday and your date of birth are the same thing. (And they both have a year.) Not in Korea at least. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] FYI: HTML5
(with my hat of HTML WG W3C staff contact) Sorry for the quite off-topic, just a clarification, before the idea is going further. Le 22 juil. 2007 à 02:40, Charles Iliya Krempeaux a écrit : On 7/21/07, David Janes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The w3c is discussing an HTML5 ... One thing you may want to take note of is that the "rev" attrbute, on the element and the element are gone. *nothing* is gone. The document is an editor's draft. Ian Hickson does a good job at going through all feedback emails, issue trackers of browsers, etc. He's dealing right now with emails from 2005/2006. You might want to look at the differences http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/diff/ "HTML 5 defines the fifth major revision of the core language of the World Wide Web, HTML. "HTML 5 differences from HTML 4" describes the differences between HTML 4 and HTML 5 and provides some of the rationale for the changes. This document may not provide accurate information as the HTML 5 specification is still in development. When in doubt, always check the HTML 5 specification itself. [HTML5] The work being done for documenting the rationale behind each features is given at http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ If you want to participate, Ian Hickson gave guidance on how to raise issues. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jun/0003 A feature which is not in HTML 5 editor's draft has not necessary been dropped. It might just lack of research and documentation to make an informed choice. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] [rethinking abbr] Does deserve another look?
Le 1 mai 2007 à 09:53, James Craig a écrit : The main problem, as I understood it, is that "object[data]" expects a URI, even if it doesn't know how to handle it, so the first suggestion is actually requesting the relative path "./ 20050125" which causes extra junk 404s (Ex. 1; not necessarily a bug). Some UAs even requested relative paths for anchored resources in the page as with the object include-pattern (Ex. 2; probably a bug and definitely a reason to ditch it). 1. January 25 2. See what has been done in ["duri" and "tdb" URN namespaces based on dated URIs][1] urn:tdb:: Then let's see if it is possible to do something like. January 25 It could be easily defined at IETF. And I wonder about January 25 [1]: http://larry.masinter.net/duri.html#dates -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] changing abbr-design-pattern to title-design-pattern?
Le 29 avr. 2007 à 02:53, Tantek Çelik a écrit : However, I'm against contorting microformats because of bugs or suboptimal behaviors in <1% marketshare browsers. Reading loudly the content of title attribute is *not* a bug or suboptimal behavior for a vocal browser. That would be equivalent to say that it is a bug to display the title content in visual browser as just plain text. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Scraping or parsing?
Le 5 mars 2007 à 11:31, Mike Schinkel a écrit : png, jpeg, gif, illustrator files, pdf, videos format? I'll give you those, but there is something fundamentally different about them, i.e. they are for visual presentation not logic and data encoding. And there is SVG. Still, I have to ponder why tools have worked there but not elsewhere. It could be simply because their level of complexity in text would be far beyond what a human could comprehend. and *pdf* (given in the list) I could have added, vcard, vcalendar, vectorial illustrator. All of those, I do NOT want edit by hands, even if I had the possibility ;) Ah, but I would argue they were *first* a format that did not require tools for humans easily to understand, and later tools were added. I don't complain about tools, on the contrary I like them. I just think the underlying format should not be forgiven its complexity because of a faint hope that future tools that will make everything alright. It depends on the context and the way the technology has been developed, and its level of maturity. But wouldn't you agree, people tend to use the promise of a tool as a crutch when they should instead strive to make things in the raw grokable by humans first? That is a different issue :) Human is too broad to be meaningful. The goal is really to make a technology which is easy to use depending on the ecosystem. then using the argument that: 1. complexity of the technology is NOT important because there are/ will be tools. 2. simplicity of the technology is a MUST because of "hand authoring". are both flawed, IMHO. I'm really happy penballs exist even if I could use ink with a feather. I'm really happy to have light measurement on my camera, even if I could use my own lightmeter (which I do on a 6x6) I'm really I have not to teach HTML to my parents, and just give them a wysiwyg editor ;) but yes I think we agree. :) -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Scraping or parsing?
Le 5 mars 2007 à 10:08, Mike Schinkel a écrit : 1.) There are two schools of thinking, one of which I believe to be severely flawed: IMHO, more than that. :) as there are nuances in between. A.) Don't worry about the syntax or how it is implemented, the tools will take care of make it easy. B.) Don't even think about tools until it can be done and easily understood by a human. Only then should tools be created. Of course I strongly believe that "A" is the flaw perspective although I know there are many people in that camp, you (it appears) included. still, it depends on the context. All is a question of context. The technologies that work are the ones that are designed for humans first, with humans with tools second. If it can't be done in Notepad or VIM, it's probably a bad idea. png, jpeg, gif, illustrator files, pdf, videos format? But you might say that they are difficult formats, so what about email, usenet, chat messenging, irc. How many of us are editing the simple headers of emails by hand? :) It doesn't make your point invalid, it is just that it is not black and white :) It depends on the context and the way the technology has been developed, and its level of maturity. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats, WebApps 1.0 and UI widgets in browsers
Hi Ben, Le 2 févr. 2007 à 00:32, Ben Ward a écrit : On 1 Feb 2007, at 15:09, Karl Dubost wrote: hCalendar: "description", "summary", "category", "location", "status", "last-modified" hCard: "adr", "street-address", "email", "geo", etc. and plenty others. You seem to have missed the bit where I was saying that any mechanisms for switching being a specific class surrounding class names, a profile URI attribute, etc would be fine. I'm not sure I see the problem here. Those class names are indeed generic and used all over the web, but they should only trigger user interface enhancements when they are children of ‘vcard’, ‘vevent’, ‘hatom’, ‘hatom’ elements. UI would surely only respond to valid and complete microformats on a page, not the sub-parts of them. should and would. I'm stressing this out now. As Mozilla was collecting requirements. I think it should be said in an implementation guide to not only trigger actions if and only if the appropriate *root* class names are found. It is something very similar to the well known location issue, squatting values :) Again, unless I've missed something in the above, that isn't necessary as those title and author class names are children of an appropriate microformat parent element, so would be ignored by a microformats parser. *would* Please could you elaborate if I've misunderstood the implications of your concern. I hope it helped to understand. Again nothing against it, I think it's cool if it's well done. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats, WebApps 1.0 and UI widgets in browsers
Le 1 févr. 2007 à 19:36, Kevin Marks a écrit : On Jan 31, 2007, at 11:25 PM, Karl Dubost wrote: At first, I say “cool, very cool!”. Then, taking a step back, I think what about the documents which have been created for the last 15 years before microformats effort existed. These documents contain class names which are probably and most certainly very similar to some values defined by microformats community. Karl, can you document instances of use of 'vcard', 'vevent', 'hfeed,' 'hresume', 'hreview' etc before microformats defined them? Agreed on that. Notice that you selected some specific class names. Very similar isn't an issue; exactly identical is.___ What I'm stressing out is that some class names if they trigger some UI behaviour will indeed make troubles. hCalendar: "description", "summary", "category", "location", "status", "last-modified" hCard: "adr", "street-address", "email", "geo", etc. and plenty others. You seem to have missed the bit where I was saying that any mechanisms for switching being a specific class surrounding class names, a profile URI attribute, etc would be fine. In my pages for example, I have started to change my instances of title for titre, and author to auteur, because I do not want to have to trigger something I didn't want. See it from a CSS point of view: * The owner of the page can choose the CSS properties associated to a series of class names. * The reader can override properties with his/her own stylesheet. * The browser does not trigger a style by itself without people choosing it. If you read carefully my message, I'm not saying "bad", I'm saying "be careful". -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Microformats, WebApps 1.0 and UI widgets in browsers
Just for the record, http://ejohn.org/blog/microformats-in-firefox-3/ Open to comments and ideas. 3. Karl Dubost, W3C Said, February 1, 2007 @ 2:21 am Mike, is there a place where you collect the comments, feedback, etc? First times are very important and lead to cool things, great improvements and painful ties sometimes. So indeed when a browser is proposing new UI widgets directly related to the *semantics* of content, we have to be very careful. At first, I say “cool, very cool!”. Then, taking a step back, I think what about the documents which have been created for the last 15 years before microformats effort existed. These documents contain class names which are probably and most certainly very similar to some values defined by microformats community. So there will be documents where a UI widget will be activated but not with the intended meaning. Basically it is changing the contract between the author and the reader by hijacking the intended semantics. There /was/ a solution for this profile attribute URIs with the URI of the used profile. Problem ahead it seems that some developers want to suppress this attribute in HTML document. I think there is a possible win-win here. The Mozilla UI widget could be activated only when the right URI (profile attribute) is really here. (a bit like the doctype switching). It will encourage people to use the right URIs, because the effect would be immediate, it will not hijack documents previously written. Everyone win. PS: Another switching mechanism could be used as well if appropriate. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] [hCite] call for examples: language
Le 1 févr. 2007 à 04:05, Colin Barrett a écrit : Book titles and the language they are in are not always identical. In general, messing with the meaning of @lang is tricky, as UAs may take that as a hint to use a different encoding. encoding and languages are not the same beast. I do not know any agents which does what you suggest. Do you know one? lang /can/ be used, for example, in the following cases: - automatic translation with mixing of languages. - User agent (speech) for pronouncing with the right accent. Some titles stays in their original languages, some titles are changed and there's nothing in XHTML which addresses these cases as should it be kept in the original language or not when translating. Example Japanese names of authors. ITS is an XML effort for doing this See "How I explained ITS to my child" http://www.w3.org/QA/2006/10/how_i_explained_its_to_my_chil -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] FYI: Location Types Registry - RFC 4589
For information http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4589.txt Abstract This document creates a registry for describing the types of places a human or end system might be found. The registry is then referenced by other protocols that need a common set of location terms as protocol constants. Examples of location terms defined in this document include aircraft, office, and train station. Note: Though as usual, this kind of things are very biased towards western barbarians. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: Non-visible microformats was [uf-discuss] Principles of Microformats?
Le 16 déc. 2006 à 22:24, Angus McIntyre a écrit : (Those are distinct points: there is abusable invisible information, as shown by the fact that Google doesn't index META keywords and descriptions). Just FYI. Spotlight on the macintosh indexes those and it. is. very. practical. when you search information. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hCard - Telephone types (cell, office etc)
Le 22 nov. 2006 à 07:03, Andy Mabbett a écrit : In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ian Lloyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Office: Work +44 (0) 121 683 5151 Shouldn't the value be written as: +441216835151 according to international standards for phone numbers? Related References From ITU - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITU-T Notation for national and international telephone numbers Recommendation E.123 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.123 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.std.internat/msg/24fc32228689a620? dmode=source -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] "Lightweight Data Access Services" and Well DesignedUrls
Stop :) You asked me about microformats, I replied about microformats. My answer would have been the same for RDFa. Le 19 oct. 2006 à 05:41, Mike Schinkel a écrit : For users: 5% useful, 95% dangerous. Although I would like for you to explain this in detail, it needs to be elsewhere. Still, I'm 99% certain it will be an assertion that I disagree with. I have seen too much anecdotal evidence that well designed URLs are beneficial. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] "Lightweight Data Access Services" and Well Designed Urls
ry with what is said just above. in the sense that it is the common problems people have redesigning When the content is being tied to the structure of the URLs when the info-structure changes they have problems moving stuff and they do not create the redirect. BTW, some of the above it is VERY DIFFICULT to do in Microsoft IIS (until version 7.0) and many commercial web applications and content management systems) do a horrific job related to providing clean URLs (i.e. Vignette, DotNetNuke, etc.). I do not like as well URIs of Vignette but more because they are very long than meaningful. I try to not remember URIs I'm using, there are tools for that: bookmarking sites/features and search engines. Readability of an URI is an illusion. Think about QR code or IRI (ex: chinese characters in an URI) Microformats have a "poor man namespace" mechanism which is the profile in the head. It helps people using the same class names to be free to use them without the same semantic (with the hope that search engines, do not index microformats not properly identified by the profile.) I'm not seeing how this relates to URL design per se. Also, are you considering Microformats only valuable for search engines? For search engines, for marketing profilers, for TIA (governmental agencies): 100% For users: 5% useful, 95% dangerous. (long off topic debate possible here about the notion of opacity and privacy) Do not confuse Web Architecture with URLs. That's the part which is not understood from REST Web architecture style. I'm not sure I can confuse them yet because I don't really know what "Web Architecture" is other than a highly abstract term used to describe the collective technology architecture for all that is the web. Is is mean something else to which I am just ignorant? See the references above. I encourage your to read this excellent series of posts by Joe Gregorio http://www.oreillynet.com/tags.csp?tag=rest I reviewed these but didn't find anything that was new to me as I've been collecting articles about REST and about building APIs. I include them so you can see my influences: About REST for Web Services * Building Web Services the REST Way <http://www.xfront.com/REST-Web-Services.html> * REST: Simplicity in Web Services design <http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/tip/ 0,289483,sid26_gci1148486,00.ht ml> * Representational State Transfer (REST) <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representational_State_Transfer> at Wikipedia orld <http://www.infoworld.com/> REST is an architecture style. It is not related to URL design :) REST is about the stateless nature of HTTP and the right usage of semantics of HTTP verbs. I'm anxious to know your thoughts based on my clarification. Also, would there be sufficient interest for me to start a list now, and invite anyone interested to come on over? I'll need 5-10 interested parties otherwise it won't be time yet. As I said there are very interesting things about your list, but maybe the list [EMAIL PROTECTED] is more appropriate for this. Best -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] "Casual Web Services" and Well Designed Urls
Le 14 oct. 2006 à 18:02, Mike Schinkel a écrit : I recently started working on a project I'm calling "Well Designed Urls" (http:///www.welldesignedurls.org/) that has been a pet issue of mine for a long time. See my Aug 2005 blog post: http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blog/welldesignedurlsarebeautiful.aspx There are interesting things in your post BUT be careful of Well Known Location issues. Trying to standardize URLs would be very bad by limiting the choices of users. In these cases, there is a balance between what do we improve and what are the problems we create in the ecosystem. As an example Link Ranking Systems have increased spam on the Web and nofollow didn't solve it at all. Microformats have a "poor man namespace" mechanism which is the profile in the head. It helps people using the same class names to be free to use them without the same semantic (with the hope that search engines, do not index microformats not properly identified by the profile.) Do not confuse Web Architecture with URLs. That's the part which is not understood from REST Web architecture style. I encourage your to read this excellent series of posts by Joe Gregorio http://www.oreillynet.com/tags.csp?tag=rest -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] First version of Currency proposal
Le 06-10-12 à 23:18, Scott Reynen a écrit : 99¢ This is the sort of absurdity that the credit card advertisers engage in. I'm not sure what this means. Do you not think 99¢ means fundamentally the same thing as 0.99USD? What you see is 99 and what you get is less than 1. That's only true if you consider the value outside the context of the currency, and I don't know why anyone would do that. "99" is a meaningless monetary value without a currency assigned. If the currency is going to be optional, I think it at least needs to be implied. Otherwise we just have a number with no idea what it means. And if there's an established currency, then why not use the unit already explicitly defined by that currency's ISO 4217 code? Why throw away the "D" in "USD"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_4217 "The first two letters of the code are the two letters of ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 country codes" There are also issues in the way you divide numbers. In many countries, number are organized by sequence of 3 digits. For example, in Japan 10 yen = ju(10) yen 1000 yen = ichi(1) sen yen but1 yen = ichi(1) man yen (and not ju sen yen) 1 万 man 1000 千 sen wa-on kan-onmandarin 1 一 hito ichi yi 2 二 futa ni ar, liang * 3 三 mi san san 4 四 yonshi *si 5 五 itsutsugo wu 6 六 mu roku liu 7 七 nana shichi * qi 8 八 ya hachiba 9 九 kokonotsu kyuu jiu 10 十 toujyuu shi And this is actually used in daily life, in case people think its a corner case. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Software Projects Description
Le 06-10-10 à 10:19, Lachlan Hunt a écrit : Torrents are useful in this respect, because the hash checks are done as part of the process without any effort from the user. You just gave the answers where some metadata should stay hidden. I thought microformats effort was about to make *current authoring* practices more regular, more normalized. It is not necessary to show all metadata on a Web page, specifically when they are more useful ways of doing it. Infobesity is not good for the Web end-user (who is a reader AND an author). Projects of checking reliability of software downloading is a very good idea, but IMHO out of scope of microformats effort. And this just reading what I see lately like an explosion of targets in microformats community, which might hurt this same community later on. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Re: Software Projects Description
Le 06-10-07 à 00:42, Lachlan Hunt a écrit : Karl Dubost wrote: Le 5 oct. 06 à 10:08, Stephen Paul Weber a écrit : Software Downloads (license, download link, title, description, rating?) Might actually start some research and suggest this soon. Already done. It's called DOAP http://usefulinc.com/doap One thing that would actually be very useful for users on a download page is a way to markup a check sum (commonly MD5 or SHA) and semantically associate it with the file to be downloaded. I couldn't find anything like that covered with DOAP. MD5 sums are provided for downloads like Apache and PHP. It would be useful so that the browser could take care of checking the file when it finishes downloading. Presently, it requires too much manual effort for an average user to even bother figuring out how to check it. - The browser *could* but doesn't for now. - How many common public softwares (downloadable from a Web page) do MD5 or SHA? - The average user will never do MD5 not, because it is too much effort but he or she is not a geek. - MD5 or SHA are useful only for a small geek community where the software is released on a distributed network (Linux, open source projects, etc.) - Distribution modes are - OS built-in (Debian, Apple, Windows, etc) - Softwares built-in (Check Updates) - Web pages (open source software, creator site) On the topic of distribution, RPMfind for Linux is working with RDF. http://fr.rpmfind.net/linux/rpmfind/ PS: geek is not used qs a dismissive term. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: Software Projects Description Re: [uf-discuss] Potential Microformats
Le 5 oct. 06 à 20:50, Stephen Paul Weber a écrit :
Definately interesting, but a microformat/semantic XHTML version would
also be nice. Plus, shareware/trial downloads should be able to be
represented too. Ultimately a search engine could search by
license/limitations as well as title/description, filtering out
shareware etc. if you don't want it, allowing it if you do, etc.
I'm not sure I will bother ask each time. But let's try.
* Use Case Scenarios?
* Benefits for the End Users?
Wrong answers:
- more semantic pages
- to help the Web site manager with its data
So what are the answers to my first two questions?
--
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
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Re: [uf-discuss] Potential Microformats
Le 5 oct. 06 à 04:05, Andy Mabbett a écrit : Someone asked me recently what other microformats might emerge, in the future. Which set me thinking Be careful of the infobesity. As in I see many microformats development on this list these days without any questions being first "What is the problem we are trying to solve for the user?" I see a lot of "Let's create this microformat to grab the data from the user." or "Let's recreate this format as a microformat." If it has no direct benefits for the user, I do not see how it can be useful. For now, it is more useful for data mining marketing agencies, not for users. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Software Projects Description Re: [uf-discuss] Potential Microformats
Le 5 oct. 06 à 10:08, Stephen Paul Weber a écrit : Software Downloads (license, download link, title, description, rating?) Might actually start some research and suggest this soon. Already done. It's called DOAP http://usefulinc.com/doap -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Bug reports software Re: [uf-discuss] Potential Microformats
Le 5 oct. 06 à 08:26, Lachlan Hunt a écrit : Bug report (software) Would need to do document existing bug systems. * http://www.bugzilla.org/ - https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/ - http://www.w3.org/Bugs/ * http://bugs.php.net/ http://trac.edgewall.org/ Related Extensible Issue Tracking System http://www.w3.org/2003/12/exit/ -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] GRDDL Primer and Microformats
In case you had not seen [[[ Microformats are simple conventions for embedding semantic markup for a specific domain in human-readable documents. In our example one of Jane's friends has marked up their schedule using the hCalendar microformat. The hCalendar microformat uses HTML class attributes to associate event related semantics with elements in the markup: ]]] -- GRDDL Primer http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-primer/ Tue, 03 Oct 2006 19:51:59 GMT -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles
Le 3 oct. 06 à 06:00, Chris Casciano a écrit : It may be worth looking at the recent changes istockphoto has made wrt. localizing tags [as part of a bigger localization effort] before getting too deep into this conversation on one side of the other. I've only caught a wiff of it for mentions of transition problems, but it sounds like an interesting *and* real world/live example of wrestling with the issue of translations and or similes in tagging. Yes indeed. Do you know a bit more of what they did? Or at least what were the issues? I wish that tagging systems had (on the backend side) ways to deal with - associating meaning on user choices (your own private taxonomy) - associating meaning with a bigger classification (attach a tag to an already existing taxonomy, ex: geo stuff) - associating two tags giving them equivalences on user choices SKOS with label being the tags http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-guide/ http://www.idealliance.org/proceedings/xtech05/papers/03-04-01/ It's all about giving users the choice to use well defined taxonomy AND to build his/her own if needed. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Marking Up Personal Profiles
Le 2 oct. 06 à 12:10, Tantek Çelik a écrit : http://lavalife.com.au/ http://www.rsvp.com.au/ http://match.com.au/ http://adultmatchmaker.com.au/ It would be a good start to at least add those URLs as sources for profile information to the profile-examples page. Just to guarantee that what is *actually used* on the Web is not only English. http://fr.meetic.yahoo.net/ - French http://partner.yahoo.co.jp/ - Japanese http://cn.personals.yahoo.com/ - Chinese It is irrelevant what some sites "may" do. What is relevant is what sites *actually* do. Do you have any other examples? Go explore sites in other languages than English, then gather the results, and you might understand what sites are *actually* and *practically* doing. I guess that's an issue with tagging in general, where you get people coming up with dozens of different tags to represent exactly the same concept. Actually it's not. With folksonomies, it has been demonstrated over and over again, that communities tend to converge on tags to mean things. Sure there are some redundancies but the community typically ends up organically picking a winner and using it. This has been seen on the centralized communities of delcious, Flickr, and even with decentralized blog post tags that Technorati indexes. Flickr is a site with an English UI, removing/selecting a big part of people. Something that native English speakers have always hard time to understand. From a practical experience, many people around me can't use Flickr because it is in English. Then in an English- speaking dominated community, yes your tags will be in English. Flickr is extremely annoying for tags in a non english context. Practical example: http://flickr.com/photos/smallbox/246843470/ These are practical problems… http://flickr.com/photos/tags/normandy/ http://flickr.com/photos/tags/normandie/ http://flickr.com/photos/tags/ノルマンディー/ Look at the tag cloud (right) and tell me if it's the one you can find on Technorati. http://blogmarks.net/marks/tag/politique reliability, regularity in data build trust. Trust is needed for people. This is a practical problem. There are advantages to that type of tagging in some cases. But say, for example, you were using a personals search engine looking for brunettes, a search engine should theoretically list people that have used either of those tags. Even before personals search engines, there were printed personals, and "tagging" conventions evolved there for people to quickly/accurately describe attributes and wants. You don't need to presolve most of these problems with a-priori taxonomies/ontologies - the authors of the data often solve them themselves. taxonomies/ontologies are rarely made a-priori. There is here a clear confusion of what is an organization model and the modality of creating this model. You could perfectly have a taxonomy which is based on tagging. It is surprising to read this here. Some ontologies/taxonomies are defined and microformats are using them to describe contents. hcard is based on vcard which is a taxonomy. When Flickr created geotagging by maps, it is a taxonomy as well. When you enter a zip code in a database and you derived all the address information, it is from a taxonomy. Though if you enter a US ZIP code in a Canadian form, it doesn't make sense, because there are differences. Anyway, it was just a mail to say that there are practical differences and that we have a tendency to ignore by the nature of the working language (English). We remove participation from people of other languages which could bring the diversity that *really* exists on the web. We ignore source of information which would help us to give a real and practical solution. If there is really a practical problem to solve which is not obvious sometimes. is pretty much dead. Another false assertion :) Try spotlight and you will see. Fight ideas, not people. Respect the diversity of people (not just English speakers) -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] copy-and-paste metadata prior art?
Le 30 sept. 06 à 21:33, Bruce D'Arcus a écrit : Does anyone know of any prior art that might be used to contest this patent? <http://www.macnn.com/blogs/?p=110> From what I can tell, Apple is trying to patent the ability to copy-and-paste metadata to the clipboard, which would I think have far reacing impacts (doesn't stuff like LiveClipboard cover this ground?). August 2000, Dan Connolly, Javascript Bookmarklet http://www.w3.org/2000/08/eb58 -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] does hatom for comments make sense?
Le 12 sept. 06 à 14:13, Chris Messina a écrit : How would you handle nested comments like in Digg for example? Just curious how that fits into the model -- I suppose it would map to what you described? nested comments = threading. there is all we need in hatom (atom) to do that. Just think that a comment is "a weblog post about a weblog post" uri1 <--- comment-x/uri2 about uri1 <--- comment-xa/uri5 about uri2 <--- comment-xb/uri6 about uri2 <--- comment-y/uri3 about uri1 <--- comment-z/uri4 about uri1 It is just a question of having the right *atomic* model. and to make individual statements about things. Then the application layer is above. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] does hatom for comments make sense?
Hi Steph, Le 12 sept. 06 à 07:17, Stephanie Booth (bunny) a écrit : A while back somebody showed me a blog marked up with hatom. That person used hatom on the comments too (on the single post page) -- that meant two hfeeds: one containing only the post, and another one with the comments. Does this way of using hatom on comments make sense to you? I noticed that neither K2 nor Sandbox wordpress themes do this. Completely logical. Each individual comment is nothing more than a weblog post. The only technical difference is that it is not made on another weblog, but directly on the weblog of the person. Each individual comment is structured like a weblog post. It has (required) - an id, the URI of the comment - a title, often the same than the original weblog post, sometimes a different (see SPIP) - a date when it has been done (updated) It has (recommended) - often an author - content (core text of the comment) - link (the URI of the Weblog original post we are commenting on) It just miss a summary, but that is not mandatory in Atom either. IMHO, it should be an individual hatom entry for each comment, The way everything is aggregated and organized has a full feed is another debate. The date and link should help to create a pseudo thread. It could be a full thread like in SPIP when the commenter has the possibility to reply to a specific comment in this case the link becomes the URI of the specific comment. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] hJob
Le 30 août 06 à 22:21, Don Park a écrit : Given recent moves in the job listing by bloggers, I think 'hJob' and syndication of job data might be a nice near-term topic for discussion. Thoughts? Links to alternate proposals? For inspiration http://vocab.org/bio/0.1/ http://simile.mit.edu/timeline/ http://www.la-grange.net/2006/07/hiring-timeline/ (draft - not finished) -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] books, ids
Le 8 août 06 à 02:05, Bruce D'Arcus a écrit : Just an FYI of relevance to recent discussions of book encoding and ids, uris, etc. The OCLC has a new (and nice!) web version of its catalog: http://www.worldcat.org and nonprofit! [[[ Founded in 1967, OCLC Online Computer Library Center is a nonprofit, membership, computer library service and research organization dedicated to the public purposes of furthering access to the world's information and reducing information costs. More than 54,000 libraries in 109 countries and territories around the world use OCLC services to locate, acquire, catalog, lend and preserve library materials. ]]] -- About OCLC [OCLC - Home] http://www.oclc.org/about/default.htm ... complete with pretty URIs. http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/26396865 http://www.worldcat.org/isbn/0816621268 Could be useful for hCite? yes. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] blog post in japanese?
Le 24 juil. 06 à 12:44, Ryan King a écrit : http://2xup.org/log/2006/07/24-0130 http://excite.co.jp/world/english/web/?wb_url=http://2xup.org/log/ 2006/07/24-0130&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2 -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] origin of class attribute approach in microformats ?
Guillaume, Le 22 juil. 06 à 08:35, Guillaume Lebleu a écrit : why the approach has evolved to become the following "class attribute-approach": [...] instead of the following mixed-namespace approach: [...] Both approaches work fine in a browser (firefox at least), and both approaches could be generated from the same XML. But having an XML background I see that the second approach has the following advantages: It depends on the Web community you are talking to and then the type of applications and tools. In the paradigm of Web authors and Web designers, the Web community has a better understanding of class names because they are used to it. In some other Web communities, it will be the opposite, people will have a better grip on XML namespaces, and schemas. So it's really a question of community of practices. The more important is to find bridges when it's possible. The rest turns always in religious debates, which are pointless. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Extracting N from hCard (was: Citation Straw Proposal II)
Le 06-05-02 à 08:50, Tantek Çelik a écrit :
The Book of Ryan
Ryan Cannon
Is there a reason for not using the
- cite element
- value "reference" for "class" attribute
or maybe "source"
Why not?
The Book of Ryan
Ryan Cannon
I tend to avoid "citation" because of it has a a tendency to confuse
people accross western languages. For example, citation is in French
a quote (extract of a book) and a citation (reference for author).
There are a lot of Bibliography Formats on Dana Jacobsen's Web site.
It's interesting to look at the different strategies used for giving
a reference to a work.
http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~jacobsd/bib/formats/
There is also “A review of metadata: a survey of current resource
description formats”
http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/metadata/desire/overview/rev_toc.htm
BibTex format uses
@article{Gettys90,
author = {Jim Gettys and Phil Karlton and Scott McGregor},
title = {The {X} Window System, Version 11},
journal = {Software Practice and Experience},
volume = {20},
number = {S2},
year = {1990},
abstract = {A technical overview of the X11 functionality. This
is an update
of the X10 TOG paper by Scheifler \& Gettys.}
}
Sometimes I wish we could write HTML with the same clarity than TeX/
LaTeX.
--
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Re: Language Maps [was RE: [uf-discuss] Microformats vs XML]
Le 06-05-02 à 03:24, Ryan King a écrit : Internationalization in protocols and formats is a big problem. Much bigger than microformats. Maybe we'll be able to advance things in microformats, even if only a little. I'm curious– has anyone here had experience with Internationalizing a data format or communication protocol? Indeed. The only very simple way I see to handle this is at authoring tool level. If we were making a pile on how XML markup languages are organized, there will be for layers, with the fundamental one at the bottom, what I would call the base. Top value of attributes attributes element content Bottom The only experience I have had so far with a "localized" language is AppleScript. I'll try to find a reference. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Adobe's XMP Platform (for media metadata)
Le 06-05-01 à 19:48, David Janes -- BlogMatrix a écrit : I had to do a surprisingly large amount of reading to get to that point in their docs! I was hoping to find more of substance in terms of data modeling; maybe I haven't pushed down to the right level yet. I find Adobe's site pretty hard to navigate. 30s search with alltheweb http://www.alltheweb.com/search?q=adobe+xmp+example+extract A 101 article about XMP with examples http://www.xml.com/lpt/a/2004/09/22/xmp.html A piece of code in RDF/XML (XMP) = http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#"; xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";> Bob DuCharme = Or if you prefer in RDF/n3 (I do) = @prefix rdf: <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#> . @prefix dc: <http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/> . <http://example.org/beach.jpg> "Bob DuCharme" . = And Maybe I'm not fully sure about this (to be confirmed), but in RDF/A, it would give something very similar to microformats in the spirit http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-rdfa-primer-20060310/ = http://example.org/beach.jpg"/> Taken by http://example.org/beach.jpg"; rel="dc:creator" href="http://www.snee.com/bob/";> Bob Ducharme = Tons of links http://xml.coverpages.org/xmp.html The RDF Schema is available here in the spec. The XMP data are contained in the binary part of the image. http://www.adobe.com/products/xmp/pdfs/xmpspec.pdf The Photo RDF which is very similar is using the comment section of JPEG files. http://www.w3.org/TR/photo-rdf/ -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats vs XML
Sorry if it's a bit off-topic.
Le 06-05-01 à 10:56, Tantek Çelik a écrit :
On 4/30/06 6:20 PM, "Karl Dubost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
And your page is easily indexable for Marketing profiler. -1 :)
Huh?
Karl, with all due respect, this line of reasoning makes no sense.
It is widely acknowledged that the more semantic the markup the
better, for
search engines, for accessibility, for styling, etc. etc.
*Remember* that I concluded the mail by ying-yang. Nothing is all
good or all bad.
Search engines are having their business models on indexing content
to make money (without respecting for example the "Non Commercial"
clause of CC.) This is tangential discussion, but it's part of what
brings more semantics.
So yes, more semantics is good for accessibility, for styling, for my
own benefit when I can interact with an address notebook or a
calendar, but I don't like it when it's used to send me more spam, to
propose me products, to "tag" me as a consumer more than a person.
Every techonolgy has its drawback.
Are you saying that "Marketing profiler" is a reason that semantic
markup is
a bad idea?
Not a bad idea but a dangerous consequence (IMHO). It's why I block
on my personal Web site bots. In the process of trying to remove
myself from search engines, not because I don't want to share, but
because I have no options for an "Non Commercial" opt-in.
If so, this is hardly unique to microformats, and would apply
equally to any
attempt at semantic XML or RDF etc. and thus is moot in any
comparison of
microformats vs. XML.
Completely agreed with you. I would say even worse with RDF, because
giving more flexibility for crawling relationships. The greater the
power, the greater the benefits AND the damage. Ying and Yang again.
And you page is easily indexable to create you own index of
information ala Mark Pilgrim. +1
Indeed. Controlling your own data is a big plus.
Well… That's the irony of the message of these days. But really
people don't control their data these days. Look at all the proposed
web services, and we clearly give up the control on our data.
Take the time to read this and the comments.
http://bopuc.levendis.com/weblog/archives/-2006/03/28/
its_not_about_you.php
I do appreciate or appreciated many of the services that were
proposed these last two years (so called social web) but it has
nothing to do with controlling your data.
And your page has class names in English when you are using another
language. -1
It is interesting that you should bring this up, because this is an
ADVANTAGE of using microformats over POX (Plain Old XML), because
of the
reason I pointed out in my previous email on this subject:
the microformat use of the class attribute permits *multiple* class
names,
whereas XML elements may have only *one* name.
No conflict here.
Agreed. I don't praise for XML.
Thus with microformats, you may use both the standard microformat
class
names, AND class names in your own non-English language if you wish:
Çelik
("soyad" is Turkish for family-name)
you said it in a previous message. Redundancy is bad.
But yes it's one possibility or something like class="family-name 名
前" (namae en japonais).
Whereas with POX markup standards, you are relegated to only using the
element names from the spec.
Çelik
Agreed, I'm not advocating for XML either.
If you care about using non-English languages for semantic markup,
this is a
+1 for microformats, since they permit you to continue to do so,
and -1 for
XML based standards, which typically use English-only element names.
not completely, I just want to use the class name in my own language,
which I decided to do a while ago. A bit ala SKOS, where you can have
labels in your own language but the matching is made at another
level, which I found neat, because it ease the process for the user.
Thanks Tantek.
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Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats vs XML
Le 06-04-30 à 07:36, Benjamin Carlyle a écrit : The short answer of when to use microformats is as follows: You are writing some html that contains some useful human-readable information. You say to yourself: I would like to mark this up with some classes now for styling. You look up the relevant microformat, and you pull in the standard names. You don't have to make your own up, and now your page is machine-readable too. Bonus! And your page is easily indexable for Marketing profiler. -1 :) And you page is easily indexable to create you own index of information ala Mark Pilgrim. +1 And your page has class names in English when you are using another language. -1 Ying-Yang -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats vs XML
Off List because off topic Le 06-04-27 à 20:16, Steven Livingstone a écrit : RSS (as an example) has remained very simple ever since it was created and XML-RPC has also remained so along with many others. Sure, there have been and In contrast if you consider RDF, OWL etc - they are not particularly easy to get running with. There is quite a learning curve, but having used them for Unrelated. You do not compare the same thing at all :) You could compare an application of RDF Ex: FOAF, SKOS, RSS 1.0 with an application of XML Ex: XHTML, RSS 2.0, Atom The first paragraph of Uche Ogbuji's IBM article sums it up for me: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-stand2.html Put this first paragraph in the SGML community, and you will see the answers. Everything is a question of context. It's certainly nothing specific to Microformats, but more a web 2.0 view on things where simplicity is being particularly effective. Web 2.0 is a marketing which became a social phenomenon. Not a technology. Microformats are good for particular things. I didn't say the opposite. They have their issues and their benefits depending on the context. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats vs XML
Le 06-04-27 à 16:50, Steven Livingstone a écrit : Less formal creations such as RSS never suffered from that as much (in constrast to say NewsML which had a much more specific goal - the XSD is around 30 pages long). Look at the contrast of something like XML-RPC versus SOAP/WSDL and so on. The former does a nice job for online services without too much effort - the latter can require a LOT of work (although tool support is getting better) and is better suited in formal environments. Don't get me wrong, there is sometimes a need for detailed specs and so on, but there is also a need for simple, effective formats, which Microformats do very well. That is called Modularization and has nothing to do with microformats but the choice of structural organization of a technology. What you said is valid for *any* specifications. Take the microformats in 5 years, add all the "modules" (hcard, hreview, …) etc. And you will have a huge specification too. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Microformats vs XML
Le 06-04-27 à 15:08, Phil Haack a écrit : My article discusses the principles and benefits of Microformats, but I haven't had a really strong discussion of why not use XML or RDF as well as the weaknesses of Microformats. There are benefits and weaknesses and sometimes with the same argument. Though it's not necessary specific to microformats, but more about nature of information and authoring. For example, * ease of authoring * September 3, 1997, 16:30 attribute content Here there is a redundancy of information, one which is easily accessible, the content part of the element, and one which is not easily accessible the "title" attribute part. A simple user will easily change the content part but will most of the time forget the title attribute, which makes the processing wrong. Human editing factor unfortunately. I had already the problem for some pages. And I repeat, it's not specific to microformats. The only solution to cope with that is to have an authoring tool which "knows" about the synchronization, but then it means that the authoring tool can produce other formats as well (ics, rdf, txt, etc.) * management issue and legacy data * It's very easy to create information in a specific page. That's cool. It means that anyone can enrich one page with explicit data more than implicit data. But it's also easy to forget to update data and create then legacy content. * The specific weaknesses of microformats are seen as benefits by others depending on how you look at them. Nobody is wrong or right, it's more a question of context and what you want to achieve. Crawl the archive of the list and you will find many discussions (or ratholes depending on how you want to see them) I have only one strong concern with my W3C hat is that the semantics of title attributes has been abused (here you will have different opinions too on that topic). For your article, maybe more on comparing things, you could say what are the different ways to achieve certain things with microformats, XML, RDF and then talk about the things you can do or not do with each parts. More than the bad or good dichotomy which increases bitterness and doesn't achieve much. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ISBN mark-up
Le 06-04-23 à 12:52, Alf Eaton a écrit : On 22 Apr 2006, at 05:56, Andy Mabbett wrote: In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Bruce D'Arcus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes ISBN is a registered URN, so I'd rather see coding that supported that; e.g. urn:isbn:0950788120. How would you see that sitting inside HTML mark-up? 0 9507881-2-0 title is then less explicit than the content, less accessible. http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/wai-pageauth.html#tech-expand-abbr http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#text-abbr -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] ISBN mark-up
Le 06-04-22 à 18:56, Andy Mabbett a écrit : In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Bruce D'Arcus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes ISBN is a registered URN, so I'd rather see coding that supported that; e.g. urn:isbn:0950788120. How would you see that sitting inside HTML mark-up? Cette nuit est totale, on dirait celle de notre temps. Arcane 17 - André Breton -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: communications log, "tel" microformat? (was Re: [uf-discuss] Paving the cowpaths?)
Le 05-11-26 à 04:07, Benjamin Carlyle a écrit : URI[1]. The number above might be represented instead as something like: +1.415.555.1212 See http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard- brainstorming#Using_RFC2806_with_hCard -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] blog quotes - markup pattern? microformat? discuss!
Le 05-11-22 à 17:09, Ryan King a écrit : I think most of that has made its way to the wiki, but I'm not sure where, since the issue of blog citations and book citations seem to have a naming collision. Ryan. Cool I see in http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-quote- examples#Perhaps_add_some_microformats_too http://meyerweb.com/";>Eric Meyer http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/11/social- protocols/"> wrote: I don't think that's a good way of making a link to the post. What would you think of: http://meyerweb.com/";>Eric Meyer wrote in http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/11/ social-protocols/">Social Protocols: wrote is as meaningless than "Click Here". :) -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] blog quotes - markup pattern? microformat? discuss!
Le 05-11-21 à 22:50, Tantek Çelik a écrit : I've started this page to document various examples and "best practices". Please feel free to offer yours, or improve upon what you see there. http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-quote-examples btw as a friendlier tool to edit quotes, I have modified a bit the tool developed originally by DanC http://www.w3.org/2000/08/eb58 The HTML one, creates a window with the markup ready to cut and paste so the user doesn't have to type. I will be happy to modify or add a version when we have “defined” a format. I wonder on the same line of thoughts, what is the current state of art of quote in Weblogs software (Movable type, DotClear, etc.) How do they implement it if they do. For example, NetNewsWire has a feature called "Copy HTML with attribution". But the Code source which is given is not very HTML- Semantics. Maybe we could help Brent Simmons for this, like could you add a new feature. ## http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/news#x20051003a";>Simile Release of Piggy-Bank 2.1 The SIMILE project, a joint project conducted by the W3C, MIT Libraries, and MIT CSAIL has announced the availability of a new major release of Piggy Bank. Piggy Bank is an extension to the Firefox web browser that turns it into Semantic Web application making it easier to manage, organize and share RDF data. Built around its Longwell faceted browser engine, the new Piggy Bank release features greatly improved stability, usability, performance and integration of third-party services (e.g. Google Maps). [http://planetrdf.com/";>Planet RDF] ## Or NetNewsWire has the necessary vocabulary to create an applescript to do it correctly, but we need first the form for the blockquote. http://ranchero.com/netnewswire/developers/scripting.php # Applescript Vocabulary excerpt for NetNewsWire headline n [inh. item] : A single item from a feed. elements contained by subscriptions. properties creator (Unicode text, r/o) : The creator of this headline. date published (date, r/o) : The date this headline was published. description (Unicode text, r/o) : The description (body) of the headline. permalink (Unicode text, r/o) : The permalink for this item as it appears in the feed. title (Unicode text, r/o) : The title of the headline. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] blog quotes - markup pattern? microformat? discuss!
Le 2005-11-21 à 22:50, Tantek Çelik a écrit : So what are "best practices" for semantically marking up a blog quote? very difficult to solve. And I guess it may apply to all kind of quotes. Are they merely proper uses of XHTML elements? (as implied in the preso) In the way you have done it, yes. The cite may contain also the title of the article you are quoting. Or is there enough of a pattern here to consider an XHTML compound? That's the thing the pattern you proposed here will work only in isolation but will fail as soon as you will have more than two authors/quotes. Or perhaps enough to warrant a microformat? (my intuition tells me no, yet it is perhaps still worth at least asking the question). Difficult to answer. A good (utopian) format for quotes would almost help to replace the trackback system altogether. And would help to create real quote bot engines for bloggers and for "classical" authors. One of the problems too that we will not be able to change, browsers never implemented the cite. Not that they required too, but it could have been a neat mechanism for the hyperlinking nature of the Web. The way I'm doing now and which is *not necessary good* cite="http://poesie.webnet.fr/poemes/Canada/beauchemin/ 12.html"> Octobre glorieux sourit à la nature. On dirait que l'été ranime les buissons. Un vent frais, que l'odeur des bois fanés sature, Sur l'herbe et sur les eaux fait courir ses frissons. http://poesie.webnet.fr/poemes/ Canada/beauche min/12.html">Rayons d'octobre (I) - Nérée Beauchemin So why this choice. The fact that I put the Author and the title inside the blockquote because there's no formal way in HTML to associate both entities and there are cases when in a paragraph, you can talk about multiple authors, and then you can't make it easy for example for a bot to find what belongs to who. :((( That's unfortunate. XHTML 2.0 tends to solve things here. But that would not solve the problem of today. Il y a un moment précis dans le temps Où l'homme atteint le milieu exact de sa vie Un fragment de seconde Une fugitive parcelle de temps plus rapide qu'un regard Plus rapide que le sommet des pâmoisons amoureuses Plus rapide que la lumière. Et l'homme est sensible à ce moment. Mi-route (Fortunes) - class="dc:author">R obert Desnos When it's from a book, I'm using urn:isbn: but I could use also http://www.oclc.org/worldcat/open/isbnissnlinking/default.htm which offers a vendor neutral way of linking to a book. http://worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/isbn/2-07-030086-2 -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Formatting of Movie Credits information
Le 2005-11-16 à 18:19, Goodlatte, Robert a écrit : people's opinions on the subject. Is this proper use of a definition list? If not, what other formatting should I use? Right now, my HTML would look something like this: Title Walk the Line Genre Biography, Musical, Drama Cast Joaquin Phoenix, Reese Witherspoon, Robert Patrick, Ginnifer Goodwin, Shelby Lynne I would say it's an abuse of definition list, but at the same time, definition list is not very strictly defined in the HTML 4.01 specification. Would an unordered list be a more appropriate way to format this information? Is there a microformat I could use? ### References I have never seen a microformat or set of classes specific for movies. But somehow it might be closely related to * http://microformats.org/wiki/reviews-formats * http://developers.technorati.com/wiki/hReview * http://www.amk.ca/xml/reviews.html * http://structuredblogging.org/xmlns/simple-review.xsd There's also * Design of Ontology for The Internet Movie Database (IMDb) http://www.cs.umbc.edu/~skallu1/IMDb.pdf * Graph Structure which was designed to import the IMDB database http://tripletest.sourceforge.net/2005-06-08/imdb-graph-structure.txt * A parser for the IMDB database http://imdbpy.sourceforge.net/ ### Comments Don't take them as mandatory things but just references materials that you can reuse to organize your own profile/microformats. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Formatting of Movie Credits information
Le 2005-11-16 à 18:19, Goodlatte, Robert a écrit : Right now, my HTML would look something like this: Title Walk the Line Genre Biography, Musical, Drama Cast Joaquin Phoenix, Reese Witherspoon, Robert Patrick, Ginnifer Goodwin, Shelby Lynne I would rather try to convince IMDB (It means to convince IMDB) to release their data with an easy format to parse. Specifically when you know that many of the data come from the Web community itself. http://www.imdb.com/interfaces I wish IMDB had a more restful database. The movie "les 400 Coups" could have different access http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053198/DirectedBy http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053198/Genre http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053198/Cast etc. You could even have the full list of things in RDF. That would be more than great. There are plenty of data out there that are rich but still not really accessible in an easy way. * IMDB database * Trailers lists of Apple and Yahoo for example. * An independant resource for ISBN (Vendor neutral) There is progress on this front http://www.oclc.org/worldcat/open/isbnissnlinking/ Ex: http://worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/isbn/0395720427 To create a format, you should first explore IMDB and other movies site. And see what is the minimal information. Look at all weblogs which talk about movies. I do that often too. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] xdmp profiles not enough for parsing?
Ernie, Le 05-11-16 à 12:13, Tantek Çelik a écrit : Worse than that, you WILL make mistakes in terms of thinking, oh you would ONLY want to embed A in B, until someone figures out that oops, in *practice* you actual *do* want to embed or inside a for example (from HTML4 DTD). What Tantek is saying is that XML Schema, RelaxNG, etc. are good at expressing the structure in very constraining ways and sometimes too constraining removing then the evolutivity of your language. Like I said, there is a *ton* of such experiences in this space (trying to write generic DTD/schema languages for generic parsability). Yes. Quite of. And XML-type Schemas are only able to express a very minimal semantic. When it comes down to it, the most useful information for a parser/ validator is just to know what are the properties and what are the values. That's what XMDP provides. What XMDP provides is the semantic of the link which associates the property with values. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] xdmp profiles not enough for parsing?
Le 2005-11-15 à 11:05, Phil Dawes a écrit : When coding up my python microformats parser, one of the problems I encountered was getting the parser to interpret the structure correctly (see [1]). In order to overcome this my parser currently hardcodes the elements that can have sub-elements in an internal data structure. (e.g. for hCard: 'adr', 'geo' and 'n' can have subelements). I've just noticed that xdmp profiles don't carry this information, and was wondering if this scuppers the general idea of parsing microformats from their profiles? (or am I missing something) I have no specific answer to your questions, but I know some people who have worked on GRDDL tried also to extract part of the information of the profiles. You *may* find information on this side. [[[ Implementations As of April 1st 2005, five partial or full implementations of GRDDL have been announced: * an XSLT-based on-line demonstrator, developed by the author, implements all the transformation mechanisms described in the specification, but without real error handling; this implementation is only available as a Web interface. * glean.py, a Python implementation by Dan Connolly (co-author of the GRDDL specification) which also implements all the mechanisms as a command line tool. * garner.py, another Python implementation by Sean Palmer, available both as command line and as Web service * a PHP implementation for RAP, the Semantic Web toolkit for PHP, implementing at this time the XHTML-mechanisms only * Dave Beckett's GRDDL parser implemented in C as part of raptor, also available through a Web interface The diversity of implementations and their number at this stage of development of the specification is a positive sign of the interest in the technology among the Semantic Web community; hopefully this number should grow even larger, and GRDDL could become a basic part of any RDF toolkit. ]]] -- Bridging XHTML, XML and RDF with GRDDL http://www.w3.org/People/Dom/2005/xtech-grddl.html#id2458260 Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:42:33 GMT -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Microformat idea: store hours
Le 2005-11-11 à 21:09, Tantek Çelik a écrit : I refer you to RFC2445 and the intricate details of RRULES which allow for patterns of exceptions. http://microformats.org/wiki/store-hours-examples [[[ >This is Sam's bakery's opening times for the year 2000 and onward. > >Sam's bakery is open from 7 to 12 and 13 to 18, Monday through Thursday. >(They close for lunch between 12 and 13) >Sam's is open from 7 to 12 and 13 to 15.30 on Fridays >Sam's is open from 9 to 13 on Saturdays >Sam's is closed on Sundays >Sam's does not open on Saturdays during the period of July 5 to August 5 >Sam shuts down on the following holidays; Jan 1, Feb, 12 July 9, Oct 8, Dec >24, 25 FYI. I think you mean EXDATE, not EDATE in your original note. The easiest way to represent these store hours is to define separate VEVENTs and relate them using the RELATED-TO property. How about this using four events, one for the weekday morning store hours, a second for the weekday MO-TH afternoon store hours, a third for the weekday FR afternoon store hours and a fourth for the weekend store hours. Interesting, this is very much the same way that the store hours would be listed on the front door or on a website for the store! Actually, it is VERY important to keep the store hours as separate VEVENTS, as there will most probably be different store help for each. Your know the quirks of these unions ;-) In addition, if you copy the events on to the employee's work calendars you will want them as separate events. Bill won't want to see he is working the weekend when he has a hot date with Sally! There are probably other good reasons to have these as separate but linked/related events too. BEGIN:VCALENDAR VERSION:2.0 METHOD:PUBLISH BEGIN:VEVENT DTSTAMP:19990101T10Z UID:123 DTSTART;TZID=US/Eastern:19990104T07 DTEND;TZID=US/Eastern:19990104T12 SUMMARY:Sam's Bakery Weekday Morning Hours RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;BYDAY=MO,TU,WE,TH,FR EXDATE:19990101,19990212,19990709,19991008,19991224,19991225 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:124 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:125 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:126 END:VEVENT BEGIN:VEVENT DTSTAMP:19990101T11Z UID:124 DTSTART;TZID=US/Eastern:19990104T13 DTEND;TZID=US/Eastern:19990104T18 SUMMARY:Sam's Bakery MO-TH Afternoon Hours RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;BYDAY=MO,TU,WE,TH EXDATE:19990101,19990212,19990709,19991008,19991224,19991225 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:123 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:125 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:126 END:VEVENT BEGIN:VEVENT DTSTAMP:19990101T11Z UID:125 DTSTART;TZID=US/Eastern:19990101T13 DTEND;TZID=US/Eastern:19990101T183000 SUMMARY:Sam's Bakery FR Afternoon Hours RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;BYDAY=FR EXDATE:19990101,19990212,19990709,19991008,19991224,19991225 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:123 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:125 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:126 END:VEVENT BEGIN:VEVENT DTSTAMP:19990101T11Z UID:126 DTSTART;TZID=US/Eastern:19990102T09 DTEND;TZID=US/Eastern:19990102T13 SUMMARY:Sam's Bakery Weekend Hours DESCRIPTION:NOTE: We are closed SUNDAYS.\n We will also be closed on Saturdays, from July 5 through August 5.\n We hope you enjoy your summer holidays also! -- Sam's RRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;BYDAY=SA EXDATE:19990101,19990212,19990709,19991008,19991224,19991225 EXDATE:19990710,19990717,19990724,19990731 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:123 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:124 RELATED-TO;RELTYPE=SIBLING:125 END:VEVENT END:VCALENDAR One thing this exercise does point out is that it would have been very useful to have a ";START=" RECUR value, rule component. This would have been useful in the EXRULE definition for the Saturday close dates. For example, with this enhancement: EXRULE:FREQ=WEEKLY;BYDAY=SA;START=19990710;UNTIL=19990805 ]]] -- [Ietf-calsify] Re: EXRULE and multiple RRULEs - Frank Dawson store examples http://lists.osafoundation.org/pipermail/ietf-calsify/2005-February/ 000413.html Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:57:12 GMT Also a search in Google for * [vevent filetype:ics] returns 27200 files http://www.google.com/search?q=vevent%20filetype%3Aics * [rrules filetype:ics] returns 48 files http://www.google.com/search?q=rrules+filetype%3Aics * ["related-to" filetype:ics] returns 109 files http://www.google.com/search?q=%22related-to%22+filetype%3Aics -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] tel scheme for hcard? - RFC 2806
Le 05-11-10 à 17:50, Tantek Çelik a écrit : http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming perhaps in a new section titled: === Using RFC2806 with hCard === Done. I hope I have respected the philosophy of the project. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard- brainstorming#Using_RFC2806_with_hCard -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] tel scheme for hcard? - RFC 2806
Hi Brian,
Le 05-11-10 à 16:26, brian suda a écrit :
There are several different protocols for telephony, TAPI is another
possiblity.
I think this is a good idea, but the parsing[1] page does not address
this issue at the moment.
+123.456.7890 (mobile)
while you COULD extract the machine readable data from the href, hcard
really wants the human readable format anyway. So what would be the
reason for using the machine data?
Do you mean the benefit for the user of having an anchor?
click. :)
As I said just to launch the communication automatically by clicking
in the Web page.
I didn't know about tapi but it seems not to be in the IANA list.
[[[
tel telephone [RFC2806]
fax fax [RFC2806]
modem modem [RFC2806]
]]]
-- Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) SCHEMES
http://www.iana.org/assignments/uri-schemes
Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:48:14 GMT
How to add support for "tel" to your desktop?
* For Gnome, edit ~/.gnome/Gnome and add something to the URL
Handlers section.
(Dan Connolly uses this to get galeon to launch
telnum from [telagent sources][1] for tel URIs)
How to add support for "tel" to your browser?
* In Mozilla, [Dizzy][2]
* In Internet Explorer, [Asynchronous Pluggable Protocols][3]
[1]: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2001/telagent/
[2]: http://dizzy.mozdev.org/
[3]: http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/networking/pluggable/overview/
overview.asp
On the CSS front… You could for example add automagically an icon. I
have put the property for those who wants to add it to their own
stylesheet in their browsers, so they know what type of links. It's
working for mail
a[href^="tel:"]:before {
content: '\260f ' !important;
padding-left: 20px !important; }
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/260f/index.htm
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/260e/index.htm
[Off topic]
a[href^="mailto:"]:before {
content: '\2709 ' !important;
padding-left: 20px !important; }
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2709/index.htm
--
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager
*** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
___
microformats-discuss mailing list
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Re: [uf-discuss] tel scheme for hcard? - RFC 2806
Le 05-11-10 à 16:06, Scott Reynen a écrit : Karl Dubost wrote: Why not using the RFC 2806 This is already allowed, right? Are you suggesting this should be required? If so, to what end? In the examples :) It's allowed but not used. I was just wondering why. :) About required: I have no opinion about it. It seems with the rise of things like VOIP it will become more and more common to “click to talk” like emails. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] tel scheme for hcard? - RFC 2806
Le 05-11-10 à 15:53, Karl Dubost a écrit : I meant http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] tel scheme for hcard? - RFC 2806
Hi, I was looking at examples of hcard and the one based on the RFC and I wondered about the tel: scheme. See below. [[[ 2.4.2 VCARD AGENT:BEGIN:VCARD\nFN:Joe Friday\nTEL:+1-919-555-7878\n TITLE:Area Administrator\, Assistant\n EMAIL\;TYPE=INTERNET:\n [EMAIL PROTECTED]:VCARD\n This vCard fragment has one property whose value is another vCard, and could be represented as an hCard fragment with an embedded hCard, literally (with the unnecessary type=internet default omitted, and the implied n optimization): mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">Joe Friday +1-919-555-7878 Area Administrator, Assistant ]]] -- hcard-examples - Microformats http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples Thu, 20 Oct 2005 15:39:01 GMT Why not using the RFC 2806 [[[ URLs for Telephone Calls This document specifies URL (Uniform Resource Locator) schemes "tel", "fax" and "modem" for specifying the location of a terminal in the phone network and the connection types (modes of operation) that can be used to connect to that entity. This specification covers voice calls (normal phone calls, answering machines and voice messaging systems), facsimile (telefax) calls and data calls, both for POTS and digital/mobile subscribers. ]]] -- http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2806.txt Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:15:35 GMT Your example will become. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">Joe Friday Area Administrator, Assistant Best. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager *** Be Strict To Be Cool *** ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
