Re: [uf-discuss] Getting started with microformats
Hi, Relatively new subscriber here. Sorry for the lag in this response. On 9 Aug 2006, at 18:41, Chris Messina wrote: We could offer either a case study (XCorp started by locating all references to people and locations on their website. They then marked up their pages using hcard. Specifically, this is the code they changed...) I've been puzzling over this for a while. I'd like to offer an hcard but ... In my case, there is a set of key individuals who, for operational reasons, are not directly contactable. Specifically, they choose not to publish their email address or direct line number. An assistant's name, email and direct line is advertised as the point of contact for the key individual. I don't see any way of expressing this adequately using μf. Or have I just not thought hard enough? Cheers, Graham Higgins. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Getting started with microformats
I did think about using the agent field --- unfortunately, in this instance John Smith is (in real life) an agent and John Doe is the agent's assistant. I have a feeling that using the agent's agent field for the agent's assistant's hcard or the associate agent's hcard is just going to cause confusion all round. The vCard 'agent' field strongly means that the enclosed vCard is an assistant or proxy of the main vCard, it doesn't mean 'agent' in any of the other senses of the name. This type typically is used to specify an area administrator, assistant, or secretary for the individual associated with the vCard. A key characteristic of the Agent type is that it represents somebody or something that is separately addressable. Looks like it's an unfortunate semantic conflation which is restricted to this particular domain of discourse. I suppose if you're using 'agent' to mean something else then yeah, but that's a risk that all the microformat class names run. -Ciaran ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Getting started with microformats
On 8/17/06, Ciaran McNulty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe the markup looks something like: div class=vcard span class=fnJohn Smith/span can be reached via his secretary span class=agent vcard span class=fnJohn Doe/span on span class=tel020 /span /span /div See http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#2.4.2_VCARD A smart parser will convert that correctly and I suspect even a slightly more simplistic parser would manage to churn out two vCards with the same telephone number for both parties. Would this not be subjected to the same parsing issues as nested hCards in general (see http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-August/005130.html)? I'd think a smart parser could properly deal with nested hCards, but Brian seemed pretty convinced any parser would mess things up. - David ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Getting started with microformats
On 17 Aug 2006, at 14:03, Ciaran McNulty wrote: I did think about using the agent field --- unfortunately, in this instance John Smith is (in real life) an agent ... The vCard 'agent' field strongly means that the enclosed vCard is an assistant or proxy of the main vCard, it doesn't mean 'agent' in any of the other senses of the name. Well yes, that is strictly true in the context of RFC 2426 but it does seem to be a somewhat infelicitous choice of label, given that it is a user-facing data structure. This type typically is used to specify an area administrator, assistant, or secretary for the individual associated with the vCard. Thanks for drawing my attention to that, fie on me for missing it the first time through. A key characteristic of the Agent type is that it represents somebody or something that is separately addressable. Just in case I've misunderstood: in this context, does your understanding of the term addressable yield any special meaning beyond the generic capable of being manipulated independently? The term doesn't seem to be defined any more precisely in the RFC and I rather hoped to be able to provide the URI of an hCard for transclusion. Anyway, reporting back: thanks for the assist. I now have a chunk of XHTML which can be processed by Brian Souda's xhtml2vcard parser (mostly) correctly - the hcard owner is incorrectly assigned the agent's title --- the agent template of the xsl stylesheet is commented out with a remark referencing further work to be done. The XHTML can also be processed (mostly) correctly by Tantek's favelet (which uses the technorati stylesheets) --- the agent fn is omitted from the vCard but I couldn't say whether this is expected behaviour. For my own purposes, I rectified the omission by adding it in a note. Thanks again, Graham. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
[uf-discuss] Getting started with microformats
So I had the question posed to me yet again: Ok, we know we should do microformats... but we're not sure where to start. Can you help us out? Seeing as how I'm probably not alone here, I was going to create a Getting started with microformats page when I discovered a bunch of confused pages that seem to be half-hearted attempts to solve this problem: * http://microformats.org/wiki/introduction * http://microformats.org/wiki/what-can-you-do-with-microformats * http://microformats.org/wiki/implement * http://microformats.org/wiki/getting-started They all seem to start with definitions and then run out of steam. I would like to propose (and yes, this means work at some point, but for now I'm raising the issue) that we create a well-written and straight forward page that does answer the question: I'm ready to get started, so where do I begin? We could offer either a case study (XCorp started by locating all references to people and locations on their website. They then marked up their pages using hcard. Specifically, this is the code they changed...). or we could offer general step-by-step instructions for people who have flat HTML or database powered content... or, as I mentioned before, for people using various tools, we could suggest that they switch libraries or themes, for example, using the Sandbox theme in WordPress. In any case, I need a page to point to that will answer this question for me... and so rather than dive right in, I thought I'd solicit recommendations for other folks -- this page should be in the form of an FAQ, but in the form of actionable information -- hell, make a screencast -- but whatever it turns out to be, it should answer that question succinctly and clearly: *once you've convinced someone they should use microformats, what is the next most simple and satisfying step that they can take to implement microformats?* Chris -- Chris Messina Agent Provocateur, Citizen Agency Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable[X] ask first [ ] private ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Getting started with microformats
Chris Messina wrote: So I had the question posed to me yet again: Ok, we know we should do microformats... but we're not sure where to start. Can you help us out? Seeing as how I'm probably not alone here, I was going to create a Getting started with microformats page when I discovered a bunch of confused pages that seem to be half-hearted attempts to solve this problem: * http://microformats.org/wiki/introduction * http://microformats.org/wiki/what-can-you-do-with-microformats * http://microformats.org/wiki/implement * http://microformats.org/wiki/getting-started They all seem to start with definitions and then run out of steam. I would like to propose (and yes, this means work at some point, but for now I'm raising the issue) that we create a well-written and straight forward page that does answer the question: I'm ready to get started, so where do I begin? We could offer either a case study (XCorp started by locating all references to people and locations on their website. They then marked up their pages using hcard. Specifically, this is the code they changed...). or we could offer general step-by-step instructions for people who have flat HTML or database powered content... or, as I mentioned before, for people using various tools, we could suggest that they switch libraries or themes, for example, using the Sandbox theme in WordPress. In any case, I need a page to point to that will answer this question for me... and so rather than dive right in, I thought I'd solicit recommendations for other folks -- this page should be in the form of an FAQ, but in the form of actionable information -- hell, make a screencast -- but whatever it turns out to be, it should answer that question succinctly and clearly: *once you've convinced someone they should use microformats, what is the next most simple and satisfying step that they can take to implement microformats?* Chris I really like the idea of using a case study. As I and others have found, it's really easy to get into MFs when you actually see a working example and have the opportunity to implement them into something you already use. It might be valuable to think of a study that is relevant to the kind of people that are asking you that question. Are they business people, bloggers, designers? Frances ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Getting started with microformats
Hi Chris, I totally agree. Tantek and I were talking about this at Wordcamp -- how people don't really get microformats until they see them in action. I marked up a sidebar calendar on my blog with the event microformats and want to use that as one case study. I am sure there are many others. The problem I have, as Iam sure most of you do too, is time. I have been asked by several people to submit my modified Wordpress plugin as a real plugin, but I'm a weirdo perfectionist and want to get a bunch more things working (lke URLs for each event) before I do that. The problem is that I need to find a few hours in a day to specifically devote to doing that, and at this point, I'm not sure where those will come from. I would say the first thing to do would be to collect other case studies and get notes from those who are using them. One case study for each microformat group would probably do quite well. Then, once those case studies have been collected, someone needs to rubber-band them together and put them up in a cohesive manner on the microformats website. This is also something I could do if I had more time...but I want to get my plugin done first. What say ye? -Erica On 8/9/06, Chris Messina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I had the question posed to me yet again: Ok, we know we should do microformats... but we're not sure where to start. Can you help us out? Seeing as how I'm probably not alone here, I was going to create a Getting started with microformats page when I discovered a bunch of confused pages that seem to be half-hearted attempts to solve this problem: * http://microformats.org/wiki/introduction * http://microformats.org/wiki/what-can-you-do-with-microformats * http://microformats.org/wiki/implement * http://microformats.org/wiki/getting-started They all seem to start with definitions and then run out of steam. I would like to propose (and yes, this means work at some point, but for now I'm raising the issue) that we create a well-written and straight forward page that does answer the question: I'm ready to get started, so where do I begin? We could offer either a case study (XCorp started by locating all references to people and locations on their website. They then marked up their pages using hcard. Specifically, this is the code they changed...). or we could offer general step-by-step instructions for people who have flat HTML or database powered content... or, as I mentioned before, for people using various tools, we could suggest that they switch libraries or themes, for example, using the Sandbox theme in WordPress. In any case, I need a page to point to that will answer this question for me... and so rather than dive right in, I thought I'd solicit recommendations for other folks -- this page should be in the form of an FAQ, but in the form of actionable information -- hell, make a screencast -- but whatever it turns out to be, it should answer that question succinctly and clearly: *once you've convinced someone they should use microformats, what is the next most simple and satisfying step that they can take to implement microformats?* Chris -- Chris Messina Agent Provocateur, Citizen Agency Open Source Ambassador-at-Large Work: http://citizenagency.com Blog: http://factoryjoe.com/blog Cell: 412 225-1051 Skype: factoryjoe This email is: [ ] bloggable[X] ask first [ ] private ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Getting started with microformats
On 8/9/06 10:41 AM, Chris Messina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I had the question posed to me yet again: Ok, we know we should do microformats... but we're not sure where to start. Can you help us out? Seeing as how I'm probably not alone here, I was going to create a Getting started with microformats page when I discovered a bunch of confused pages that seem to be half-hearted attempts to solve this problem: * http://microformats.org/wiki/introduction * http://microformats.org/wiki/what-can-you-do-with-microformats * http://microformats.org/wiki/implement * http://microformats.org/wiki/getting-started They all seem to start with definitions and then run out of steam. Actually, what you are seeing is the natural state of wiki pages. They get incrementally improved over time, and not necessarily predictably so. I would like to propose (and yes, this means work at some point, but for now I'm raising the issue) that we create a well-written and straight forward page that does answer the question: I'm ready to get started, so where do I begin? Alright Chris, I'm going to call you on this. Stop proposing and start writing. Seriously. I'll be perfectly frank, there have been lots of proposals and calls for action by folks but when those same folks are asked to step up and help out with even incremental work they typically fail to find the time to do so. More action (writing), less talk (proposals). The next actions here: 1. Feel free to add and improve to the pages mentioned above. 2. If you don't like the pages above, how they are structured etc., and have a better proposal, then start a section for yourself on the to-do page and start describing what you want to create instead. The reason for describing it first is to make it more open, and to put it somewhere that other people looking to improve things will also look to help out. http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do 3. Follow-up on those items you listed on the to-do page. Thanks, Tantek ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Getting started with microformats
On Aug 9, 2006, at 10:41 AM, Chris Messina wrote: I would like to propose (and yes, this means work at some point, but for now I'm raising the issue) that we create a well-written and straight forward page that does answer the question: I'm ready to get started, so where do I begin? I don't see how anyone can disagree with that. Less talk , more rock. -ryan ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
Re: [uf-discuss] Getting started with microformats
Chris Messina wrote: So I had the question posed to me yet again: Ok, we know we should do microformats... but we're not sure where to start. Can you help us out? [...] We could offer either a case study (XCorp started by locating all references to people and locations on their website. They then marked up their pages using hcard. Specifically, this is the code they changed...). [...] I came across microformats almost exactly a year ago, and idly proposed the hGEDCOM format for genealogy. I saw that a separate Wiki page had been created (thanx, Tantek!), but didn't really get excited about the whole thing until I heard the podcast of Tantek's panel discussion at SXSW (audio file at http://player.sxsw.com/2006/podcasts/SXSW06.INT.20060313.Microformats.mp3) This would be a great introduction to anyone trying to understand why microformats should be done. I'm currently adding microformats to a bunch of pages on the Intranet at work, so I may be able to provide details of the pitfalls that a newbie encounters while microformatting: paying attention to subordinate classes (eg. a class=vcard fn url href=bjonkman.htmBob Jonkman/a doesn't work); make sure the Web page validates before microformatting, make sure the Web page still validates after microformatting; it helps to understand the base format (vCard, Atom) before trying to do hcard or hatom. I can expound on this in the Wiki -- where do I start? BTW, is there a microformat validation tool? I'm currently relying on the Tails Export extension by Rob de Bruin in Firefox -- if it displays there it must be OK... --Bob. ___ microformats-discuss mailing list microformats-discuss@microformats.org http://microformats.org/mailman/listinfo/microformats-discuss
