unable to set up ad-hoc wifi network
hi folks, I'd like to set up adhoc wireless on my -current laptop to provide network access to my linux laptop. Using man pages and mailing list archives, I came up with this command : ifconfig iwi0 mediaopt ibss nwid home-bridge chan 10 192.168.11.1 up I must have been missing some clue because nothing shows up when I'm scanning from the linux laptop, and I can't ping the -current laptop either. Of course, both cards works perfectly fine with Managed networks, and nothing shows up in dmesg. Thanks for your suggestions. -- Vincent Gross So, the essence of XML is this: the problem it solves is not hard, and it does not solve the problem well. -- Jerome Simeon Phil Wadler
pcidump hexdump byte ordering
Hi misc, I'm toying with SMM with the prospect to write a correct (read: not depending on some useless firmware magic) driver for battery threshold setting for thinkpads. Right now I need to flip the D_OPEN flag of the northbridge, but I'm unsure about the ordering of the bytes in the PCI subsystem this is the code I use to access the config space (chipset's an I915M) : iodata.pi_sel.pc_bus = 0; iodata.pi_sel.pc_dev = 0; iodata.pi_sel.pc_func = 0; iodata.pi_reg = 0x9C; iodata.pi_width = 4; iodata.pi_data = 0; if (ioctl(pcifd, PCIOCREAD, iodata) == -1) warn(problem while doing ioctl on /dev/pci); printf(%#x\n, iodata.pi_data); this is what it prints : 0x391a20 this is the output of pcidump -xx 0:0:0 Domain /dev/pci: 0:0:0: Intel 82915GM Host 0x: 25908086 20900106 0603 [...] 0x0080: 0x0090: 0110 0030 00391a20 0x00a0: which is coherent with what my code displays now, the I915 doc says that the VID is at offset 00h, and that the DID is at 02h, and that their values are 8086h and 2590 respectively. I'll let you check that on the dump above, theses values are interverted ... Is that to say the offset 0x9D is on the lightest byte of the value I fetch ? Cheers, -- Vincent Gross So, the essence of XML is this: the problem it solves is not hard, and it does not solve the problem well. -- Jerome Simeon Phil Wadler
Re: Using a separate boot partition
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 5:31 AM, Joseph Alten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So there isn't really an option like I was describing? I was going to just create my / partition on my boot hard drive like you mentioned, but I seemed so close when I ran boot hd0a:/bsd -a at the boot prompt that I thought I was missing something in the documentation... Thanks anyway. On Tue, 11 Nov 2008 20:08:08 -0800, Ben Calvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on Linux, too much crap tends to end up in /, so they created /boot so you could have a small separate partition. on more traditional unix systems, you dont' put much in / , instead you have a separate /usr /tmp /home /var , etc. why not put / where you wanted to put /boot and then mount the rest on the second disk On Nov 11, 2008, at 7:52 PM, Joseph Alten wrote: Due to technical constraints, my setup requires that I have a separate boot partition (basically the kernel and anything else critical for booting), and then of course my root partition other data partitions on a separate disk. I'm kind of new to OpenBSD, and so far what I've managed to do is copy /bsd to a separate partition, then at the boot prompt I run boot hd0a -a, then specify my root partition when prompted by the kernel. While this has the desired effect, I'd rather not run this every time I want to boot OpenBSD. Is there a kernel parameter I can pass that lets the kernel know ahead of time the root device I wish to mount? Basically I'm looking for the OpenBSD equivalent of root=/dev/xxx Linux kernel parameter. I think I managed to get FreeBSD working similarly with the vfs.root.mountfrom= parameter, but this doesn't appear to exist in OpenBSD. Thanks for looking into this. I'm backing ben here : OpenBSD / should be small enough to fit it entirely into a boot partition. : 12:10 [EMAIL PROTECTED]; df -h Filesystem SizeUsed Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/wd0a 130M 35.1M 88.4M28%/ /dev/wd0m 9.9G3.6G5.9G38%/home /dev/wd0h 130M 10.0K124M 0%/tmp /dev/wd0j 1014M417M547M43%/usr /dev/wd0k 253M143M 97.5M59%/usr/X11R6 /dev/wd0l 4.0G746M3.0G19%/usr/local /dev/wd0d 2.0G2.0K1.9G 0%/usr/obj /dev/wd0g 4.0G1.1G2.7G28%/usr/ports /dev/wd0e 1.5G632M817M44%/usr/src /dev/wd0f 1014M513M451M53%/usr/xenocara /dev/wd0i 130M 11.6M112M 9%/var all but bsd.mp is installed on this rig. -- Vincent Gross So, the essence of XML is this: the problem it solves is not hard, and it does not solve the problem well. -- Jerome Simeon Phil Wadler
Re: FYI: Some gloating redditors are currently trolling OpenBSD
Impressive. No, really. Not only do they manage to deface cvsweb, but if you use the standard url, everything goes back to normal, meaning their exploit is self-hiding. Plus the files aren't modified, for augmented stealthiness (we're talking ninja-level stealthiness here). Sorry, I can't help you on this, my paladin's only lvl 15, this troll's at least lvl 57. I'll fake death and let it get bored On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 11:29 PM, ropers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI: Some gloating redditors are currently trolling OpenBSD. See here for the details: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6xelo/only_two_remote_holes_in_the_default_install_in/ I feel bad about spreading this nonsense further, but I felt I maybe should give everybody here a heads-up. --ropers -- Vincent Dermiste Gross So, the essence of XML is this: the problem it solves is not hard, and it does not solve the problem well. -- Jerome Simeon Phil Wadler
Re: bridging and NAT:ing on the same interface
(sorry, missed my first shot) On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 9:43 PM, alexander lind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Aug 11, 2008, at 12:36 PM, dermiste wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 6:57 PM, alexander lind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi List Is it possible to bridge and NAT on one single network interface? I did something along these lines, but on the internal iface I used two 802.11Q vlans. The first vlan was bridged, and the second one NAT'ed. But it should work without vlans. You should set up some filtering on the bridge to ensure only the public boxes ll@'s go through. If you don't mind me asking, did you go with the vlan solution as an added security layer, or did you have any other thought behind that? It was mostly to do a clean separation between IPv4 traffic (NAT'ed) and IPv6 traffic (bridged). My ISP provides both, with dhcp for v4 autoconf and rtsol/rtadv for v6 autoconf. I could have done the same by prohibiting rfc1918 source addresses on ext_if and non-rfc1918 source addresses on int_if. -- Vincent Gross So, the essence of XML is this: the problem it solves is not hard, and it does not solve the problem well. -- Jerome Simeon Phil Wadler
Re: missing clue regarding IPv6, vlans bridging
I did some additional tests : pings using link-local addresses work out-of-the-box, whether the target is hme0 or le0, but the problem remains with public addresses (2000::/3) On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 2:36 PM, dermiste [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi misc, my ISP is kind enough to provide native IPv6 access, so I'd like to have a full-IPv6 intranet. IPv6 addresses are assigned with rtadv and IPv4 with DHCP The setup : curry: OpenBSD-current, Thinkpad x41. /etc/hostname.bge0: up /etc/hostname.vlan0: vlan 0 vlandev bge0 up rtsol /etc/hostname.vlan1: vlan 1 vlandev bge0 up dhcp NONE NONE NONE debruijn: OpenBSD-4.3, Sun Ultra 1. /etc/hostname.le0: dhcp NONE NONE NONE up rtsol /etc/hostname.hme0 lladdr 08:00:20:68:54:b1 up #by default hme0's ll@ equals le0's ll@ /etc/hostname.vlan0 vlan 0 vlandev hme0 up /etc/hostname.vlan1 inet 192.168.1.1 255.255.255.0 192.168.1.255 vlan 1 vlandev hme0 up /etc/bridgename.bridge0 add le0 add vlan0 up (plus nat on le0 inet from !(le0) - (le0)) [Teh Intartubz] ! ! ! +-+ | le0 | | +--+| | bridge0| | ! | | vlan0 vlan1 | | +--+--+ | | hme0 | +-+ ! ! ! [my network] If it's not clear enough, vlan 0 is for IPv6 and vlan 1 for IPv4, so I can bridge vlan0 and le0. debruijn boots cleanly, gets all its adresses and routes, both v6 and v4. curry boots cleanly, gets all its addresses and routes, both v6 and v4 then : 1) from curry, I try to ping6 debruijn, but it says host unreachable 2) from debruijn, I try to ping6 curry, and it works. 3) from curry, I try to ping6 debruijn, and it works. I tcpdump'ed hme0, vlan0 and bridge0 during curry boot, and the packets flow through all 3, showing DHCP on vlan1 and rtadv on vlan0 + bridge0. During the pings, not a single packet goes through bridge0 or vlan0, but I've a lot of ICMPv6 neighbor sol on hme0 from curry during 1), then a successful neighbor sol - neighbor adv from debruijn to curry followed by echo requests and replies on hme0 during 2), then the same pattern from curry to debruijn on hme0 during 3). I really can't see what's wrong with my setup, clues anyone ? -- Vincent Gross So, the essence of XML is this: the problem it solves is not hard, and it does not solve the problem well. -- Jerome Simeon Phil Wadler -- -- Vincent Gross So, the essence of XML is this: the problem it solves is not hard, and it does not solve the problem well. -- Jerome Simeon Phil Wadler
missing clue regarding IPv6, vlans bridging
Hi misc, my ISP is kind enough to provide native IPv6 access, so I'd like to have a full-IPv6 intranet. IPv6 addresses are assigned with rtadv and IPv4 with DHCP The setup : curry: OpenBSD-current, Thinkpad x41. /etc/hostname.bge0: up /etc/hostname.vlan0: vlan 0 vlandev bge0 up rtsol /etc/hostname.vlan1: vlan 1 vlandev bge0 up dhcp NONE NONE NONE debruijn: OpenBSD-4.3, Sun Ultra 1. /etc/hostname.le0: dhcp NONE NONE NONE up rtsol /etc/hostname.hme0 lladdr 08:00:20:68:54:b1 up #by default hme0's ll@ equals le0's ll@ /etc/hostname.vlan0 vlan 0 vlandev hme0 up /etc/hostname.vlan1 inet 192.168.1.1 255.255.255.0 192.168.1.255 vlan 1 vlandev hme0 up /etc/bridgename.bridge0 add le0 add vlan0 up (plus nat on le0 inet from !(le0) - (le0)) [Teh Intartubz] ! ! ! +-+ | le0 | | +--+| | bridge0| | ! | | vlan0 vlan1 | | +--+--+ | | hme0 | +-+ ! ! ! [my network] If it's not clear enough, vlan 0 is for IPv6 and vlan 1 for IPv4, so I can bridge vlan0 and le0. debruijn boots cleanly, gets all its adresses and routes, both v6 and v4. curry boots cleanly, gets all its addresses and routes, both v6 and v4 then : 1) from curry, I try to ping6 debruijn, but it says host unreachable 2) from debruijn, I try to ping6 curry, and it works. 3) from curry, I try to ping6 debruijn, and it works. I tcpdump'ed hme0, vlan0 and bridge0 during curry boot, and the packets flow through all 3, showing DHCP on vlan1 and rtadv on vlan0 + bridge0. During the pings, not a single packet goes through bridge0 or vlan0, but I've a lot of ICMPv6 neighbor sol on hme0 from curry during 1), then a successful neighbor sol - neighbor adv from debruijn to curry followed by echo requests and replies on hme0 during 2), then the same pattern from curry to debruijn on hme0 during 3). I really can't see what's wrong with my setup, clues anyone ? -- Vincent Gross So, the essence of XML is this: the problem it solves is not hard, and it does not solve the problem well. -- Jerome Simeon Phil Wadler
Re: cross-compiling for NetBSD?
and what about NetBSD on qemu ? sure you'll get speed loss, but you
won't have to worry about inconsistencies ...
On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Jason Beaudoin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Nick and Ted,
Thank you for the responses.
The warning never kills the process. That warning is generated by
OpenBSD's modified ld(1). It looks like the error is in a shellscript
(perhaps `nbmake`?). Probably something is getting generated wrong
because OpenBSD doesn't work the way NetBSD's tools expect, but it's
hard to say any more.
awesome, and you are correct, nbmake was the offending process.
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 2:01 PM, Ted Unangst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 7/17/08, Jason Beaudoin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
has anyone attempted (maybe with success) building a NetBSD toolchain
on OpenBSD?
This would fall more into the NetBSD camp. After all, it's their toolchain.
indeed.. I sought out assistance in #netbsd, getting only childish responses.
make: illegal argument to -d option -- e
usage: make [-BeiknPqrSst] [-D variable] [-d flags] [-f makefile]
[-I directory] [-j max_jobs] [-m directory] [-V variable]
[NAME=value] [target ...]
dir.o(.text+0x54e): In function 'DirExpandCurly':
: warning: strcpy() is almost always misused, please use strlcpy()
/bin/sh: syntax error: `(' unexpected
This means your executable was not identified, and the kernel passed
it off as a shell script.
with some help from #netbsd-code and ktrace, we were able to determine
that nbmake uses uname to get information about the system.
This build script breaks the posix standards with uname -p, which on
NetBSD, prints MACHINE_ARCH.. where as uname -p on OpenBSD prints the
extended processor information.. this is where that extraneous ( came
from.
Changing uname -p to -m in the build script got me past this error,
but I now have others to sort through :)
I'll post here if I get this working, simply for the archives.
Thanks again Ted and Nick.
regards,
~Jason
Re: how to undelete?
You might want to try Photorec : http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/PhotoRec good luck On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 1:48 PM, macintoshzoom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I deleted a directory from an OpenBSD slice from my 2nd HD, and I need to recover a single file. I tried : http://myutil.com/2008/1/15/undelete-unrm-for-openbsd-4-2-with-dls but failed : # dls /dev/wd1x /xxx/xx/undelete.bin Sector offset supplied is larger than disk image (maximum: 0) Help thanks.
Re: UPDATE: mozilla-firefox-3.0
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 6:01 AM, scar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Marco Peereboom @ 2008/07/16 23:00: Flash is only good for a few things such as naked ladies performing anatomic tricks, dude getting punched in the ding-dong Trogodor the burninator. Nothing makes me happier than visiting a website and having some ad puking its irrelevant content on me. there are a lot of informative and useful videos and documentaries on youtube, and a lot of news or otherwise public service websites utilize youtube for their own video content, as well. *cough* XviD + Vorbis *cough* And no, Flash does not help with content protection (read DRM).
Re: It's possible to mirror OpenBSD manual page?
http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?manpath=OpenBSD+Current The FAQ link leads to a page full of forgotten treasures Have a nice day On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:05 AM, my mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi all i want using interface like http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi, so i can browsing from my LAN without online, because i don't have a 24 hours connection. so can i mirroring the OpenBSD manual website? thx
Re: the backend...
nah, it's much more fun to expose their stupidity in full view. Plus it serves as a warning to forecoming dullards, and helps keeping this list clean. echo compile marc.info into openbsd-wall_of_shame ToDo On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 7:31 AM, Pieter Verberne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 03:32:01PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 01:07:07PM -0700, badeguruji wrote: | Hello Group, | | sorry this is slightly off topic, but i was curious. (that) What database technology (Oracle, MysQL, Postgres...) does Google use for its database need? both in its plethora of apps and internally to manage the company! | and i turned to some of the brightest minds in the industry, i have access to, for solid answer :) | Thank you. I don't see what this has to do with OpenBSD, but ok .. Paul, if it has nothing to do with OpenBSD, please don't answer the stupid idiots with truth. Otherwise you are part of the same problem. You could make this a 'somewhat' moderated mailing list. So that a few of you can remove messages from the list. Or maybe a the archives only? Hmm, never mind:) (but I'll post this message) -- Vincent
Re: UPDATE: mozilla-firefox-3.0
Martynas Venckus wrote:
nspr-4.7.1
As kili and ian pointed out, it doesn't apply because
patch-mozilla_nsprpub_pr_include_private_primpl_h has been removed.
Index: Makefile
===
RCS file: /cvs/ports/devel/nspr/Makefile,v
retrieving revision 1.24
diff -u -r1.24 Makefile
--- Makefile12 Feb 2008 23:21:38 - 1.24
+++ Makefile13 Jun 2008 18:31:38 -
@@ -6,14 +6,14 @@
COMMENT-main= Netscape Portable Runtime
COMMENT-docs= HTML Documentation for NSPR
-VER= 4.6.8
+VER= 4.7.1
DISTNAME= nspr-${VER}
PKGNAME-main= ${DISTNAME}
PKGNAME-docs= nspr-docs-${VER}
DISTFILES= ${DISTNAME}${EXTRACT_SUFX} \
nspr-reference${EXTRACT_SUFX}:0
-SO_VERSION= 19.0
+SO_VERSION=20.0
.for _lib in nspr4 plc4 plds4
SHARED_LIBS+= ${_lib} ${SO_VERSION}
.endfor
@@ -73,7 +73,7 @@
${MAKE_PROGRAM} -C ${WRKSRC}/pr/tests
${MAKE_PROGRAM} -C ${WRKSRC}/lib/tests
@cd ${WRKSRC}/pr/tests ulimit -Sn 192 env TZ=gmt \
- LD_LIBRARY_PATH=${WRKSRC}/dist/lib /bin/ksh runtests.ksh
+ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=${WRKSRC}/dist/lib /bin/ksh runtests.sh
LD_LIBRARY_PATH=${WRKSRC}/dist/lib ${WRKSRC}/lib/tests/string
LD_LIBRARY_PATH=${WRKSRC}/dist/lib ${WRKSRC}/lib/tests/base64t
Index: distinfo
===
RCS file: /cvs/ports/devel/nspr/distinfo,v
retrieving revision 1.9
diff -u -r1.9 distinfo
--- distinfo12 Feb 2008 23:21:38 - 1.9
+++ distinfo13 Jun 2008 18:31:38 -
@@ -1,10 +1,10 @@
-MD5 (nspr-4.6.8.tar.gz) = bL9oH4tzEs1U8Et9vqOBvA==
+MD5 (nspr-4.7.1.tar.gz) = fG51oIZ84rnsYuOZqQi1rA==
MD5 (nspr-reference.tar.gz) = jZRQOnk+OzIiUnYci0jz4A==
-RMD160 (nspr-4.6.8.tar.gz) = 2ot3w7OGrbgkZ2E+C8299faDaeo=
+RMD160 (nspr-4.7.1.tar.gz) = ILCUX6gVlMb545RqybcJAGjP4Mw=
RMD160 (nspr-reference.tar.gz) = 4eQ4pZI64spNagflIfhYo+D3wcY=
-SHA1 (nspr-4.6.8.tar.gz) = yg16lA4c9s9r1jaA/t8JAZXQtGA=
+SHA1 (nspr-4.7.1.tar.gz) = 3xT+PpNNpLRVWSnXQeQQedMriiQ=
SHA1 (nspr-reference.tar.gz) = mihC1ynB3kmPoYRmevtjk5qdcec=
-SHA256 (nspr-4.6.8.tar.gz) = R3UOapniVw+iEZ8h1dIBF0KCZ5NSN5pWXj5agEU+SLE=
+SHA256 (nspr-4.7.1.tar.gz) = WHgrEUIzWfKiR/Aheqtv4EHzKYSqwfQR2m1DvTTP0Ns=
SHA256 (nspr-reference.tar.gz) = zhhZrKNh2VTVMaJ+qR7AzZwW8lssI0mT1E5+d1gHiwo=
-SIZE (nspr-4.6.8.tar.gz) = 1313108
+SIZE (nspr-4.7.1.tar.gz) = 1261636
SIZE (nspr-reference.tar.gz) = 195121
Index: patches/patch-mozilla_nsprpub_configure_in
===
RCS file: /cvs/ports/devel/nspr/patches/patch-mozilla_nsprpub_configure_in,v
retrieving revision 1.6
diff -u -r1.6 patch-mozilla_nsprpub_configure_in
--- patches/patch-mozilla_nsprpub_configure_in 12 Feb 2008 23:21:38 -
1.6
+++ patches/patch-mozilla_nsprpub_configure_in 13 Jun 2008 18:31:38 -
@@ -1,7 +1,7 @@
$OpenBSD: patch-mozilla_nsprpub_configure_in,v 1.6 2008/02/12 23:21:38
martynas Exp $
mozilla/nsprpub/configure.in.orig Wed Oct 31 20:07:38 2007
-+++ mozilla/nsprpub/configure.in Tue Feb 12 23:37:03 2008
-@@ -1728,12 +1728,15 @@ mips-sony-newsos*)
+--- mozilla/nsprpub/configure.in.orig Tue Apr 29 02:21:11 2008
mozilla/nsprpub/configure.in Fri Jun 13 21:58:15 2008
+@@ -1802,9 +1802,11 @@ mips-sony-newsos*)
AC_DEFINE(OPENBSD)
AC_DEFINE(HAVE_BSD_FLOCK)
AC_DEFINE(HAVE_SOCKLEN_T)
@@ -14,11 +14,7 @@
DSO_CFLAGS=-fPIC
MDCPUCFG_H=_openbsd.cfg
PR_MD_CSRCS=openbsd.c
-+OS_LIBS=-lc
- if test -z $USE_NSPR_THREADS; then
- USE_PTHREADS=1
- fi
-@@ -2781,6 +2784,7 @@ config/autoconf.mk
+@@ -2857,6 +2859,7 @@ config/autoconf.mk
config/nsprincl.mk
config/nsprincl.sh
config/nspr-config
Index: patches/patch-mozilla_nsprpub_lib_tests_Makefile_in
===
RCS file:
/cvs/ports/devel/nspr/patches/patch-mozilla_nsprpub_lib_tests_Makefile_in,v
retrieving revision 1.1
diff -u -r1.1 patch-mozilla_nsprpub_lib_tests_Makefile_in
--- patches/patch-mozilla_nsprpub_lib_tests_Makefile_in 7 Nov 2006 16:22:06
- 1.1
+++ patches/patch-mozilla_nsprpub_lib_tests_Makefile_in 13 Jun 2008 18:31:38
-
@@ -1,7 +1,7 @@
$OpenBSD: patch-mozilla_nsprpub_lib_tests_Makefile_in,v 1.1 2006/11/07
16:22:06 ajacoutot Exp $
mozilla/nsprpub/lib/tests/Makefile.in.orig Mon Nov 8 03:52:55 2004
-+++ mozilla/nsprpub/lib/tests/Makefile.in Tue Nov 7 09:54:30 2006
-@@ -131,6 +131,12 @@ ifeq ($(OS_ARCH), Linux)
+--- mozilla/nsprpub/lib/tests/Makefile.in.orig Sat Nov 17 18:00:44 2007
mozilla/nsprpub/lib/tests/Makefile.in Sat Nov 17 18:09:23 2007
+@@ -134,6 +134,12 @@ ifeq (,$(filter-out OpenBSD,$(OS_ARCH)))
endif
endif
Index: patches/patch-mozilla_nsprpub_pr_include_md__openbsd_cfg
Re: CCC 2007 / 202c
On Jan 4, 2008 9:20 AM, Lars Noodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Some here were at CCC 2007. How was it and what plans are there to correct the recent anti-competency legislation rolled out in Germany? go check www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de. (If that's what you're referring to) I don't have much more information, but I think I'll have to check all this very soon, given how the French government wants to legalize trojan horses ... well of course it's to fight against terrorism and mafias, but it does not make it a realistic solution ... Do you think they'll forbid OpenBSD use, with its source code being clear and available :-p ? Regards, -Lars
Re: Open Source Article Spawns Interesting Ethical Question
On Jan 4, 2008 11:41 PM, Paul de Weerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some reason, earlier mail on the strawllman-thread did not make it to the list. I'm copying parts of some of these mails inline. Note that both mails were CC:'ed to misc@ (so they were intended to end up on the list. As such, i don't think using them inline here is a problem) However, I expect you're exaggerating when you say that your situation is that grave. There are many jobs people can do in the Netherlands. If you lost this particular job -- which could happen for many reasons -- the result would most likely just be some discomfort. I've been working in IT for well over 10 years now. I can promise you that, had I denounced non-free software, I would not have been able to pay for my food or my rent/mortgage for the past 10 years. I very much enjoy working with free software. Some of that stuff is simply amazing. But it is not of this world to think that more than a handful of people can make their living without ever touching non-free software in this world. If you're waiting for this to happen : dont hold your breath. Yes, there are many jobs people can do in the Netherlands (and in other countries). My point is that most (if not all) IT-jobs require the employee to somehow interface with non-free software. In the general case, you can not simply refuse to work with non-free software and expect to keep your job. Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd In February 2004, Mr Stallman did a keynote at an event held in Paris called Solutions Linux (or stg along theses lines) about free software. When someone asked him how to make a living of IT without using or promoting non-free software, his answer was that you don't have to work in the IT field to contribute to free software, and he'd prefer see a kernel contributor being a taxi driver than administrating Windows workstations (It may not be the very same words, but the intent is the same). FOS projects being what they are, they do not require any kind of qualification to participate, only the final product (code, doc) is taken in account. So I could be a gardener and contribute to projects I estimate worthy. From a very abstract point of view, that's coherent. But contributing is not an abstract process: a contributor has to run into a problem to solve it. Personnally, I never managed to solve a problem I couldn't grasp. And as a gardener, I'm not sure software will be my first source of problems. Another point is if contributions are my only contact with software, the range of my perceptions will be greatly narrowed. You can't expect creativity to come from this overconstrained setup: solutions often come from the 10.30 coffee break, when you discuss with your colleagues. So, I'm the first one to say we should judge on the results not the look, but I think it's way harder to write quality code when not in IT. -- Vincent
