Re: [mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
On Sun, 09 Apr 2006 23:44:06 +0200, Beth wrote: I do think we should have an attribute of video, or dvd, or other added to the album, single, ep tree. If it's possible. As an interim measure until the album attributes get restructured and we have proper media types, yes. I am no expert in this. Where could this be added *now* without breaking the current structure too much. And Robert: Do you approve of this interim sollution and would you implement it? In the mean time we should use a wiki page immediatly. These have already been added for a couple of such cases and work pretty well. DonRedman -- Words that are written in CamelCase refer to WikiPages: Visit http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ the best MusicBrainz documentation around! :-) ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
Robert Kaye wrote: 1. We will store DVDs in MusicBrainz and we'll start doing this by using the existing album structure. So, now people can add DVDs to the database. Perhaps it's time to update/change http://musicbrainz.org/style.html#styleguide-data-track (and corresponding http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/DataTrackStyle)? I don't see video tracks on CDs much different from videos on DVDs. Actually whole DVD is just one huge data track... ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
On 4/8/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was asking because Robert wrote: Once we get a few (more) into the database, we will see how people have been adding them and only then start creating official guidelines for how DVDs will be entered, but in order to do this, we must be able to retrieve the dvds entered! I think it's not that hard for a person with database access to run a query the lists albums that have the word 'dvd' in their annotations. -- Jan van Thiel ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
Chris Bransden wrote: On 08/04/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just a little question, how will we know (or how do we say) that an entry is a dvd. Maybe this is already handled but I couldn't find any reference to it. annotation I don't think this is a sufficient solution to the problem. On the artist's page, the 'album' listing reads Albums, Singles, EPs, etc. It currently says nothing about 'videos'. And this is not a matter of the physical medium, but a matter of content. An 'album' might be a CD, a casssette, a vinyl disc, ... while a 'video' might be on VHS, DVD, Beta, BluRay disc, ... But the content is audio only in the case of an 'album', but audio and video in the case of 'videos'. As far as I understood DonRedman's comment, we need an album attribute like video before we go on inserting music DVDs. As long as we don't have such an attribute we could either stop adding DVDs (but I'm too much a realist to believe this would happen), or change the album titles, maybe [Video] Title or Video: Title. Sure, such a name change would be against consistent guidelines, but this should be only a temporary solution, and once we have the appropriate album attribute, we can easily find all the video entries and change their titles and attributes. derGraph ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
RE: [mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
I do think we should have an attribute of video, or dvd, or other added to the album, single, ep tree. If it's possible. Beth aka Nyght -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of derGraph Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 2:42 PM To: MusicBrainz style discussion Subject: Re: [mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?) Chris Bransden wrote: On 08/04/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just a little question, how will we know (or how do we say) that an entry is a dvd. Maybe this is already handled but I couldn't find any reference to it. annotation I don't think this is a sufficient solution to the problem. On the artist's page, the 'album' listing reads Albums, Singles, EPs, etc. It currently says nothing about 'videos'. And this is not a matter of the physical medium, but a matter of content. An 'album' might be a CD, a casssette, a vinyl disc, ... while a 'video' might be on VHS, DVD, Beta, BluRay disc, ... But the content is audio only in the case of an 'album', but audio and video in the case of 'videos'. As far as I understood DonRedman's comment, we need an album attribute like video before we go on inserting music DVDs. As long as we don't have such an attribute we could either stop adding DVDs (but I'm too much a realist to believe this would happen), or change the album titles, maybe [Video] Title or Video: Title. Sure, such a name change would be against consistent guidelines, but this should be only a temporary solution, and once we have the appropriate album attribute, we can easily find all the video entries and change their titles and attributes. derGraph ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
Orion wrote: How is formatting them as Video: Title really different from formatting them as Title (DVD)? That's simple: it is not. Except that DVD is media specific. And the format [Video] Title also has the advantage that the brackets are not taken by another style guideline. I just disagree that we should treat videos like albums. But if we do, we should at least make them distinguishable for the occasional visitor of MusicBrainz. And an album annotation will only help if the user either has enough knowledge about MB to search for annotations (which btw. is not implemented yet) or opens each album page to check whether or not this is a video release. If you totally disagree with this temporary solution, an album annotation _plus_ an artist annotation listing all video releases would be another option, but for artists with many releases this list might become unreadable quickly. Just one moderator's opinion, and the last thing I'll say on this topic. If this is your final decision, I'll swallow it. derGraph ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
IMO it's at odds with how people will be using them. if i'm tagging my audio rip of a live performance dvd, having Video: X seems unneccesary. and if you're tagging a video rip (assuming the tagger could do so, and in time i suppose it probably will), it would be even more unneccasary, as of course it's a video, it's an .avi :) On 09/04/06, derGraph [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Orion wrote: How is formatting them as Video: Title really different from formatting them as Title (DVD)? That's simple: it is not. Except that DVD is media specific. And the format [Video] Title also has the advantage that the brackets are not taken by another style guideline. I just disagree that we should treat videos like albums. But if we do, we should at least make them distinguishable for the occasional visitor of MusicBrainz. And an album annotation will only help if the user either has enough knowledge about MB to search for annotations (which btw. is not implemented yet) or opens each album page to check whether or not this is a video release. If you totally disagree with this temporary solution, an album annotation _plus_ an artist annotation listing all video releases would be another option, but for artists with many releases this list might become unreadable quickly. Just one moderator's opinion, and the last thing I'll say on this topic. If this is your final decision, I'll swallow it. derGraph ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
On Sun, Apr 09, 2006 at 10:42:05PM +0200, derGraph wrote: As long as we don't have such an attribute we could either stop adding DVDs (but I'm too much a realist to believe this would happen), or change the album titles, maybe [Video] Title or Video: Title. I think this is even worse than adding (DVD). Firstly, it's not what people expect. I searched FreeDB for DVD and video and didn't find any with this sort of data at the beginning of the title. Even when people add things to MusicBrainz, I always see this sort of data at the end. Another case for it not being what people expect, when people add this information, it seems to nearly always be information about the format, e.g. DVD or CDV [1], a format I had never heard of before until just now. :) Secondly, as someone else pointed out, it makes a strange title for DVD rips whether they're audio only rips or audio and video rips. It's even stranger, to me, when I have a DVD with only one real video on it. All of my DVD singles so far have at least one track which is not a proper video, either a short image slideshow or looping animation. --Nikki [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD_Video ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
annotation On 08/04/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2006/4/8, Robert Kaye [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I think Don's summary of the DVD issues is pretty close to what we should go with. official_sounding_voice 1. We will store DVDs in MusicBrainz and we'll start doing this by using the existing album structure. 2. We will not use DVD in the title. 3. We can start adding DVDs into MusicBrainz. Once we get a few (more) into the database, we will see how people have been adding them and only then start creating official guidelines for how DVDs will be entered. As usual, we will attempt to keep the rules as simple as possible. I would like to ask the Style Secretary to pick the right point in time to establish the rules and to get the ball rolling at that time. 4. DVDs in MusicBrainz will represent releases that you can buy. Official DVD releases will also be considered official for MB. We'll have to consider how to improve support for DVDs in MB when we improve the handling for albums. We'll make do for now. 5. If for some reason the track listing that people have for a DVD is different from the actual DVD, create a second album and mark the second album as a bootleg. Figuring out when and when not to do this will be part of establishing the DVD style guidelines -- first lets observe what people are doing and then we'll nail down the guidelines. /official_sounding_voice All of this is going to take some time -- as usual. If some time down the road you think that the DVD guidelines have mature, please mention it here and we'll see about updating the official style guidelines. Thanks, and have a good weekend everyone! Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net Just a little question, how will we know (or how do we say) that an entry is a dvd. Maybe this is already handled but I couldn't find any reference to it. -- Frederic Da Vitoria ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
Ok. Is there currently a way to filter albums by specifying a word from an annotation? I couldn't find one. We will need it when we want to have a list of dvds entered in MB. I mean, if we put DVD (among other things) in the annotation to say the entry is actually a dvd, how will we get a list of the albums where there is the word dvd in the annotation? And by the way, the search should find dvd, and DVD and maybe Dvd... 2006/4/8, Chris Bransden [EMAIL PROTECTED]: annotation On 08/04/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2006/4/8, Robert Kaye [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I think Don's summary of the DVD issues is pretty close to what we should go with. official_sounding_voice 1. We will store DVDs in MusicBrainz and we'll start doing this by using the existing album structure. 2. We will not use DVD in the title. 3. We can start adding DVDs into MusicBrainz. Once we get a few (more) into the database, we will see how people have been adding them and only then start creating official guidelines for how DVDs will be entered. As usual, we will attempt to keep the rules as simple as possible. I would like to ask the Style Secretary to pick the right point in time to establish the rules and to get the ball rolling at that time. 4. DVDs in MusicBrainz will represent releases that you can buy. Official DVD releases will also be considered official for MB. We'll have to consider how to improve support for DVDs in MB when we improve the handling for albums. We'll make do for now. 5. If for some reason the track listing that people have for a DVD is different from the actual DVD, create a second album and mark the second album as a bootleg. Figuring out when and when not to do this will be part of establishing the DVD style guidelines -- first lets observe what people are doing and then we'll nail down the guidelines. /official_sounding_voice All of this is going to take some time -- as usual. If some time down the road you think that the DVD guidelines have mature, please mention it here and we'll see about updating the official style guidelines. Thanks, and have a good weekend everyone! Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net Just a little question, how will we know (or how do we say) that an entry is a dvd. Maybe this is already handled but I couldn't find any reference to it. -- Frederic Da Vitoria ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Frederic Da Vitoria ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
well, we currently don't filter vinyl, cassette, cd, etc so i think it's ok. that said, i think this kinda stuff will all be solved once we get http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ReleaseTypeRestructuringProposal :) On 08/04/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok. Is there currently a way to filter albums by specifying a word from an annotation? I couldn't find one. We will need it when we want to have a list of dvds entered in MB. I mean, if we put DVD (among other things) in the annotation to say the entry is actually a dvd, how will we get a list of the albums where there is the word dvd in the annotation? And by the way, the search should find dvd, and DVD and maybe Dvd... 2006/4/8, Chris Bransden [EMAIL PROTECTED]: annotation On 08/04/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just a little question, how will we know (or how do we say) that an entry is a dvd. Maybe this is already handled but I couldn't find any reference to it. -- Frederic Da Vitoria ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Frederic Da Vitoria ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
I was asking because Robert wrote: Once we get a few (more) into the database, we will see how people have been adding them and only then start creating official guidelines for how DVDs will be entered, but in order to do this, we must be able to retrieve the dvds entered! 2006/4/8, Chris Bransden [EMAIL PROTECTED]: well, we currently don't filter vinyl, cassette, cd, etc so i think it's ok. that said, i think this kinda stuff will all be solved once we get http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ReleaseTypeRestructuringProposal :) On 08/04/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok. Is there currently a way to filter albums by specifying a word from an annotation? I couldn't find one. We will need it when we want to have a list of dvds entered in MB. I mean, if we put DVD (among other things) in the annotation to say the entry is actually a dvd, how will we get a list of the albums where there is the word dvd in the annotation? And by the way, the search should find dvd, and DVD and maybe Dvd... 2006/4/8, Chris Bransden [EMAIL PROTECTED]: annotation On 08/04/06, Frederic Da Vitoria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just a little question, how will we know (or how do we say) that an entry is a dvd. Maybe this is already handled but I couldn't find any reference to it. -- Frederic Da Vitoria ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Frederic Da Vitoria ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style -- Frederic Da Vitoria ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
Re: [mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
Frederic Da Vitoria wrote: I was asking because Robert wrote: Once we get a few (more) into the database, we will see how people have been adding them and only then start creating official guidelines for how DVDs will be entered, but in order to do this, we must be able to retrieve the dvds entered! Might be worth creating a wiki page to list them and encourage people to add them to the list when they add a DVD. ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
[mb-style] Evil overlord speaks on DVDs (was: WTF DVD?)
I think Don's summary of the DVD issues is pretty close to what we should go with. official_sounding_voice 1. We will store DVDs in MusicBrainz and we'll start doing this by using the existing album structure. 2. We will not use DVD in the title. 3. We can start adding DVDs into MusicBrainz. Once we get a few (more) into the database, we will see how people have been adding them and only then start creating official guidelines for how DVDs will be entered. As usual, we will attempt to keep the rules as simple as possible. I would like to ask the Style Secretary to pick the right point in time to establish the rules and to get the ball rolling at that time. 4. DVDs in MusicBrainz will represent releases that you can buy. Official DVD releases will also be considered official for MB. We'll have to consider how to improve support for DVDs in MB when we improve the handling for albums. We'll make do for now. 5. If for some reason the track listing that people have for a DVD is different from the actual DVD, create a second album and mark the second album as a bootleg. Figuring out when and when not to do this will be part of establishing the DVD style guidelines -- first lets observe what people are doing and then we'll nail down the guidelines. /official_sounding_voice All of this is going to take some time -- as usual. If some time down the road you think that the DVD guidelines have mature, please mention it here and we'll see about updating the official style guidelines. Thanks, and have a good weekend everyone! On Apr 5, 2006, at 9:39 AM, Don Redman wrote: Wow, I liked this response (and I had not thought it could come out of that silly speaker thread). so let's keep up summarizing: (1) MB is currently not able to genuinely store metadata in a format that will apply to all DVDs However, the current album-oriented way of storing metadata is applicable to a majority of DVDs. This is what StyleGuidelines are for. Therefore DVDs could be added to MusicBrainz using relatively complex guidelines. But if the pro- DVD people are willing to work these guidelines out and to watch that they are being applied, that is ok. - The guidelines could specify that stuff above a certain level of complexity belongs to the annotation. - The guidelines coud outline a threshold of 'musical relatedness' under which DVDs should not be added to MB - etc. (2) DVDs have a non negligeable role in musical culture. They are probably going to become even more important. Can MusicBrainz afford to ignore this phenomenon? I do not think so. (3) Are DVD entries _in the MB database_ 'official'? This depends on the definition of what a DVD is _in MB_. Some define it as an entry representing an audio rip. Then it makes sense to set the status to 'bootleg'. Othes seem to define it as an etry representing the whole DVD. Then normal album rules should apply. Idea: Is it possinble to expand the current AlbumAttributes (without changing their structure or interface, just adding entries) to contain some DVD-specific attributes? Question: How much work is the rewrite of the AlbumAttributes which is documented in the wiki, and how far up on the list can it move? When could it be done, and could expanding the current set be a viable _intermediary_ solution? -- --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot. Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net ___ Musicbrainz-style mailing list Musicbrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
