Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Steve Gibbard]

It's been several years since I've had to deal with much in the way of 
operational emergencies, so my perspective may be a bit different than 
those who really need to deal with such things.  But, having spent a fair 
amount of time being distracted by the sea of computer screens in the 
NANOG audience, very little of what people are using their laptops there 
for looks to me like operational emergencies.

It seems to me that when I do have computer-work that needs to get done 
during conferences, I've got a choice.  I can sit in a darkened room not 
paying attention the speaker and otherwise not getting any benefit from 
being there, trying to fight off jet lag without visual cues to indicate 
the time of day, or I can sit out in a lobby which often has windows (you 
know, those things made of glass that let you see the outside; not the 
operating system), and have it be much more pleasant.  Likewise, I mostly 
go to NANOG to talk to other people who go to NANOG, rather than to see 
the presentations, and that seems to work much better out in the lobby. 
If there weren't WiFi in the meeting room, I mostly wouldn't miss it.

That said, NANOG often doesn't do a good job of sticking to the published 
schedule for talks, so if there is a talk I want to not miss, that often 
involves sitting through the previous talk or two so that I'll notice when 
the talk I'm interested in starts.  If the previous talk or two don't hold 
my interest, I often will end up on my laptop at that point.  That doesn't 
mean I think there's anything wrong with the talks I'm ignoring -- this is 
a fairly broad field, and what's not of interest to me may be of great 
interest to some other segment of the audience.  Sometimes I even find I'm 
interested in something I didn't expect to be.

Having been a NANOG speaker a few times, there is something disconcerting 
about speaking to a room full of people many of whom aren't paying 
attention, but it's not that bad.  For one thing, the way NANOG tends to 
be lighted, it's not that easy to tell whether those in the distance are 
watching or not, so I typically don't know if anyone has been listening 
until I hear comments afterward.  I do find that small audiences tend to 
generate a lot more questions than large audiences, though, so using a 
smaller room and encouraging those who aren't planning on paying attention 
to leave might improve discussions somewhat.

-Steve

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008, Philip Smith wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> That was a very interesting variety of responses! :-)
>
> I'm trying to remember what we all did in the days before laptops were
> viable to lug around to conferences, and when wireless wasn't available.
> I guess the world, and our expectations, have really moved on a long way.
>
> Naturally we are always wondering on how to make the conference more
> participative, exiting, and attractive to more people. Ideas would be
> gratefully received by the SC and the PC.
>
> Finally, I wasn't proposing taking the NANOG conference network away, so
> please don't panic. I was just musing out loud after my JANOG visit and
> following RS's forwarded link. Besides, Bhutan is quite close to my
> heart too... ;-)
>
> philip
> --
>
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>

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[David Barak]

- Original Message 
From: Robert E. Seastrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>Now, we could always equip the MLC with tasers and turn 'em loose to
>enforce the meeting AUP...  ;-)

Make it nerf weaponry or other such, and you'll have a deal... (speaking for 
myself - my MLC term will be up at the next meeting)

David Barak
Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise: 
http://www.listentothefranchise.com


  

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Robert E. Seastrom]

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Give everyone a one-sheet writeup of meeting etiquette

That will work about as well as it does on the mailing list.  The vast
majority of people already are just fine, and the people who do things
like trying to capture the top-poster-by-number-of-messages slot or
taking calls in the room already think they're special and that the
rules don't apply to them.

Now, we could always equip the MLC with tasers and turn 'em loose to
enforce the meeting AUP...  ;-)

---Rob


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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[michael.dillon]

> Naturally we are always wondering on how to make the 
> conference more participative, exiting, and attractive to 
> more people. Ideas would be gratefully received by the SC and the PC.

Give everyone a one-sheet writeup of meeting etiquette, along
with their badge. This would contain suggestions such as

- leave the room to make phone calls
- don't punch the keys, type quietly
- put your phone on vibrate
- move to the back of the room when you know that
  you aren't terribly interested in the preso
- move to the front of the room if you intend
  to close your laptop and pay attention to the preso
- go into the hallway when you want to have 
  a conversation with somebody
- the meeting is being broadcast out in the hallway
  so you don't have to miss anything
- yada yada yada

And then you could remind people between speakers
that it's time to change places. Quiet zone up
front, handcuffed to your laptop at the back,
and compulsive conversationalists to the hallway.

And give the speakers a similar "NANOG tips" sheet
that reminds them:

- you are being multicast on the net so don't assume
  the room is your only audience
- your preso is recorded for posterity so your audience
  could be rather larger than the room itself
- ignore the activity at the back of the room

As for the common culture vs. anonymity aspect of NANOG,
back in the day there was a communal lunch served to all.
What about bringing back a variation on this. First of
all make it optional because the power networkers don't
want to meet anyone new and will avoid it anyway. Then,
for those that sign up, randomly assign tables in the
lunchroom to break up cliques. Before you criticise this
and explain why it will not work, note that I am suggesting
an OPTIONAL thing that people sign up for, and pay extra
for. The true test is to offer it and see if there are
enough takers.

--Michael Dillon

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Randy Bush]

Philip Smith wrote:
> Randy Bush said the following on 16/7/08 16:28:
>> Philip Smith wrote:
>>> I was just musing out loud after my JANOG visit
>> which kinda confused me, as janog had excellent wireless.
> But no power. So those with laptops, I noticed, spent a lot of time with
> laptops shut, looking at the presentation, perhaps listening too.

i do not know if we're reading things correctly.  you have a dying
mackbook battery (i almost bought one for you in fry's this afternoon
just to stop the whining:).  those same folk walk around the office all
day and run on battery.

i think it is more a snapshot of an unusual janog; usually the wireless
in the conference room is borderline or non-existent.  this is because
janog is not funded, there are no costs, ...  a generous isp provided
the wireless this time, as doing so in shinegawa was easy.

but janog has deliberately discouraged nanog-style laptop use.  though i
have asked and discussed, as with many things japanese, i am not
confident that i actually understand all the motives and rationales.
best to ask the ever-wise totoro.

randy

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Philip Smith]

Randy Bush said the following on 16/7/08 16:28:
> Philip Smith wrote:
>> I was just musing out loud after my JANOG visit

But no power. So those with laptops, I noticed, spent a lot of time with 
laptops shut, looking at the presentation, perhaps listening too.

philip
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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Randy Bush]

Philip Smith wrote:
> I was just musing out loud after my JANOG visit

which kinda confused, as janog had excellent wireless.

randy

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Philip Smith]

Hi everyone,

That was a very interesting variety of responses! :-)

I'm trying to remember what we all did in the days before laptops were 
viable to lug around to conferences, and when wireless wasn't available. 
I guess the world, and our expectations, have really moved on a long way.

Naturally we are always wondering on how to make the conference more 
participative, exiting, and attractive to more people. Ideas would be 
gratefully received by the SC and the PC.

Finally, I wasn't proposing taking the NANOG conference network away, so 
please don't panic. I was just musing out loud after my JANOG visit and 
following RS's forwarded link. Besides, Bhutan is quite close to my 
heart too... ;-)

philip
--

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Scott Weeks]

--
It's a community full of high-functional Asberger's sufferers... As are 
a lot of engineering disciplines. It's hard to assert that they aren't 
paying attention without testing that hypothesis. Given the quantity of 
feedback that we receive about the quality of the program from people 
who are alleged to not be paying attention, I would conclude otherwise.
--

Even though they can't interact all that well outside of the network 
engineering field (I had to look up Asberger's Syndrome :-) some folks can walk 
and chew gum at the same time, too...



---
Nothing like being the guy standing up there and 1/2 of the
audience not paying attention.  I'd rather they not show up at all.
---

The presenters should be ready for the crowd they're presenting to and not be 
offended by it.  That's who we are.  Heck, even some of the presenters are like 
that.



---
If you are so important that you need to be working while listening,
stay in your hotel room and listen via the net feed.  That will allow
you to talk on the phone at the same time.


This isn't the case.  Phone use during presentations is Bad.  Computer use 
during presentations is OK.  IMHO.

scott



















































---

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Randy Bush]

> If what you say is worthwhile and engaging, they'll listen

again, what keeps the cows in the pasture is the quality of the grass
not the size of the fence.

randy, who has seen a bull walk through a fence without noticing it

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Sean Figgins]

Lynda wrote:

> I've seen a lot. Sometimes it feels like I've seen everything, and more 
> than once for most of it. On the other hand, I just attended a talk on 
> the UNIX Command Line, and learned a couple of things I hadn't known 
> before. Many presentations are the same. Just because the audience has 
> seen the same presentation a dozen times, doesn't mean that there isn't 
> going to be an Aha! moment that made the trip worthwhile.

Exactly my point.  It's not that the audience is not paying attention, 
and it's not that the audience is not going to get something from the 
presentation, it's just that a lot of it may be review, and they may be 
trying to research the topic to come up with a good question, counter 
argument or trying to figure out it's relevance to them.  And, every 
class or presentation I have been to that had ANY relevance to what I 
do, I have learned at least one new thing.  That new thing might have 
only has 30 seconds of coverage in a 30 minute presentation, though.

Some users may be taking notes on their laptops, or may ask their 
co-worker of the relevance of the topic to their company.  "Say, Bob, 
aren't we doing something like this?"  "Well, Bill, we are, but instead 
of the blue widget being presented, we are using a green one."

Alan Clegg wrote:

 > Disrespect for a speaker that you feel is irrelevant, boring and
 > un-fun just shows that you are a rude and elitist audience.
 >
 > AlanC {Dale Carnegie trained speaker, presenter, relevant, interesting
 > and fun guy that had thought about presenting at NANOG, but won't now}

Not even trying...  I wonder what that says about a "Dale Carnegie 
trained speaker, presenter, relevant, interesting and fun guy"?

  -Sean

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Andy Davidson]

On 15 Jul 2008, at 16:45, Mike Hughes wrote:

> People with their laptop open aren't the problem.

My 2[c|p]

I agree with Mike, many engineering staff are only permitted to attend  
the meetings on the basis that operational emergencies can be covered  
during conferences.  Taking the conference wifi away is likely to be  
more disruptive than providing it, and people using it during the  
talks...


It's sad that some people are rude, but some people are.

Andy

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Mike Hughes]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2008, vijay gill wrote:

> In short, instead of coercive action, how about the presenters learn to be
> more relevant, interesting, or fun.

I'll second that, and the whole "pressure-release valve" theory, Vijay, 
and therefore (even if this isn't a vote) this is a "no" to shutting off 
connectivity during NANOG sessions.

People with their laptop open aren't the problem.

What needs to be tackled are the people who:

a) don't put phones and other electronica on silent while in the session.
b) answer the phone while in the main room and start a conversation.
c) make an outgoing phonecall and have a phone conversation while sat in 
the room.
d) stand at the back, rather than in the hallway, having a conversation.

All of the above show a lack of respect for the speaker, and a lack of 
consideration for those around you.

There is now a screen relaying the video and audio feed into the hallway, 
precisely for dealing with "type d offenders".

"Type a, b and c offenders" need to go and learn some manners, which I 
know are a dying breed.

Mike

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[vijay gill]

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 3:28 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> > Let this be a vote for *no* on shutting off net access.
>
> It's not really an either/or situation. There are ways to
> have both, and, as we both pointed out, there are good reasons
> why speakers should not assume that room full of laptop users
> means their talk is being ignored. There is still an attentive
> audience, either in the room following along on their laptop or
> elsewhere watching the video today or tomorrow or next year.
>

 It really is an either/or situation. Any kind of attempt to force attention
by using a coercive function such as shutting of network access will result
in epic failure. Simply because the network acts as a safety valve in case
of a really boring presentation. Anyone remember the red-router-blue-router
preso a few years ago? If there was no net to act as a valve, I believe the
audience could have turned violent and we don't want our presenters
dismembered and the body parts strewn about now do we? If you think getting
material is hard now, wait till the first mob attack happens and then try to
solicit presentations.

In short, instead of coercive action, how about the presenters learn to be
more relevant, interesting, or fun.

/vijay
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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[michael.dillon]

> If what you say is worthwhile and engaging, they'll listen. 
> The speaking style that works well at a business meeting is 
> going to leave a technical audience desiring another cup of 
> coffee, or the opportunity to catch up with a friend in the 
> row behind them. 

And it is all being transmitted live to an audience with whom
you can't make eye contact, but they are there. Not to mention
the recorded video which reaches an even larger audience.

> Let this be a vote for *no* on shutting off net access.

It's not really an either/or situation. There are ways to
have both, and, as we both pointed out, there are good reasons
why speakers should not assume that room full of laptop users
means their talk is being ignored. There is still an attentive
audience, either in the room following along on their laptop or
elsewhere watching the video today or tomorrow or next year.
For instance, look at
.
Even if you presented 8 years
ago, there is a good chance that people are still watching your
presentation and reading your slides.

NANOG has always been more than merely a conference.

--Michael Dillon
 



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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Lynda]

Alan Clegg wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Paul Ferguson wrote:
> 
>>-- "Koch,Christian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Surely I understand situations arise where you have to fire up your vpn
>>>and do something, and that's foreseeable, but if you're going to just go
>>>to the con to be on your laptop all day, what is the point?  
>>
>>If people are paying to attend, then why do you care?

> Unfortunately, like those darned kids that are disruptive in the back
> row of church, it annoys those around them that are trying to pay
> attention.. loud keyboards, inappropriate giggles, etc.

I agree that people need to learn manners, but that's an epidemic that 
won't be solved by restricting network access. You won't fix it with 
announcements, or with requests by the speakers (although a reminder to 
keep the noise to a dull roar never hurts).

> I understand why it's annoying... and it is disrespectful to the
> speaker.  Nothing like being the guy standing up there and 1/2 of the
> audience not paying attention.  I'd rather they not show up at all.

Even rock stars don't get 100% attention. It may be frustrating to look 
out over a sea of faces that are mostly looking at keyboards, or 
chatting with friends, rather than paying attention to you, but...

If what you say is worthwhile and engaging, they'll listen. The speaking 
style that works well at a business meeting is going to leave a 
technical audience desiring another cup of coffee, or the opportunity to 
catch up with a friend in the row behind them. It's hard, in current 
times, to gauge where the audience is, and to keep them attentive and 
involved, but it isn't impossible.

> If you are so important that you need to be working while listening,
> stay in your hotel room and listen via the net feed.  That will allow
> you to talk on the phone at the same time.

Phooey on that. Sometimes I bring a laptop to meetings, and sometimes 
just a small notebook and pen. I really love being able to follow along, 
or even read ahead, and to note questions I might have, or points that 
were especially worthwhile. I don't even notice the sound of other 
keyboards when I'm in something interesting. If it isn't interesting, 
then at least I can makes notes, or do other things, while I'm waiting 
for the current speaker to be over.

Maybe I want to stay where I am because the fellow right after you is 
the reason I'm in the room. Maybe I'm researching some point you just 
made because I think you're wrong, or I don't understand it (or both).

> Sean Figgins wrote:
> 
>>When I manage to go, I notice that the only attendees that pay
>>100% attention are usually the people from abroad.
> 
> 
> Perhaps the folks from abroad are trying to do a mental translation of
> what is being said.  Or maybe they just aren't as rude as the folks that
> have been to every meeting and have seen all this stuff before (and yet
> continue to attend every time).

I've seen a lot. Sometimes it feels like I've seen everything, and more 
than once for most of it. On the other hand, I just attended a talk on 
the UNIX Command Line, and learned a couple of things I hadn't known 
before. Many presentations are the same. Just because the audience has 
seen the same presentation a dozen times, doesn't mean that there isn't 
going to be an Aha! moment that made the trip worthwhile.

Let this be a vote for *no* on shutting off net access.

-- 
In April 1951, Galaxy published C.M. Kornbluth's "The Marching Morons".
The intervening years have proven Kornbluth right.
 --Valdis Kletnieks

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Pete Templin]

Stephen Wilcox wrote:

> Having said that, providing its just the main plenary then sure give  
> it a go - why not try a 1/2 day in the next nanog and then collect  
> the feedback after to see how it went.

Suggestion: if you're serious about considering this, announce your 
intentions before registration opens up.

Or offer refunds.

pt


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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Pete Templin]

Alan Clegg wrote:

> I understand why it's annoying... and it is disrespectful to the
> speaker.  Nothing like being the guy standing up there and 1/2 of the
> audience not paying attention.  I'd rather they not show up at all.

But there's nothing like being the guy (or gal) walking up to present, 
and seeing 2/3 of the audience leaving.

I usually sit in row 2.  I don't want to have to focus on the presenter 
through 20 rows of chatter.  That said, I often use my laptop to view 
the presentation PDF, so I can stare/scroll/browse in a way that helps 
_me_ learn.  Good luck yanking my connection; I'll just vote with my 
wallet, and your registration fees will go up.

pt


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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[michael.dillon]

> Having said that, providing its just the main plenary then 
> sure give it a go - why not try a 1/2 day in the next nanog 
> and then collect the feedback after to see how it went.

Essentially, this suggestion is just one form of a blended
solution to the issue, i.e. a blend of connectivity and 
non-connectivity. There are other ways to do this which
should be considered.

One possible approach is to shut off connectivity during
panel discussions in the plenary but have it on at other
times. The goal here is to achieve more participation.

Another approach is to arrange wireless coverage so that there
is a dead-zone at the front of the room. People who want to listen
will sit further forward, people who want connectivity will sit
at the back of the room. The stage area can be supplied with
wired connectivity for those who need it.

And a third approach is to have no wireless or wired connectivity
at all in the plenary, except for wired access to the stage. But
set up a separate room with full audio-visuals, i.e. big screen
video feed with good speakers to serve the whole room. Put a
microphone in this room as well, and give it Internet access
bothe wired and wireless. People can still participate fully
but the noise of keyboards and chatting is contained. Some of
you may recognize this as the "terminal room" of the mid 1990s.

Before making a decision on this it would be a good idea to 
propose several variations and then solicit input from people
who have experience at other conferences, as well as talking
to the people who actually setup and operate the audiovisual
and wireless services. For instance is it really feasible to
have a deadzone at the front of the plenary? Does an audio-visual
feed with microphones in a separate room complicate the AV
operations too much?

--Michael Dillon

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Stephen Wilcox]

On 15 Jul 2008, at 03:52, Philip Smith wrote:

> Robert Seastrom said the following on 7/7/08 05:16:
>> It seems that Bhutan is having trouble with web surfing and gaming
>> during their sessions:
>>
>> http://uk.reuters.com/article/technologyNewsMolt/idUKB12933220080630
>
> It is a thought though...
>
> Should we try a NANOG without network or power provision in the main
> plenary room? People would have to listen to the presenter with 100%
> attention then. Would this make the programme better? Would there be
> more Q&A? Would there be more discussion in panel sessions? Would it
> make NANOG better overall?

Personally I don't think its a good idea.. I agree with the various  
points raised in the followups to your message - there are many  
reasons why people want internet access and pure 'not paying  
attention' is just the one at the bottom of the list.

Having said that, providing its just the main plenary then sure give  
it a go - why not try a 1/2 day in the next nanog and then collect  
the feedback after to see how it went.

Steve


>
> Some meetings I go to now have enforced laptop bans so that the topics
> under discussion have less chance of distracted participants.
>
> (I still remember some of the feedback from the NANOG IPv6 hour  
> back in
> February - even having no IPv4 connectivity for 60 minutes was
> equivalent to the end of the world for some people. Left me wondering
> what the actual plenary session was for.)
>
> Having just come back from JANOG, while JANOG apparently had wireless
> for the first time ever, there was no power in the room. Longlife
> batteries needed. I noticed the majority of the audience was actually
> sitting and listening to the presentations, and there was good Q&A  
> after
> most of them.
>
> philip
> --
>
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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Alan Clegg]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Paul Ferguson wrote:
> -- "Koch,Christian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Surely I understand situations arise where you have to fire up your vpn
>> and do something, and that's foreseeable, but if you're going to just go
>> to the con to be on your laptop all day, what is the point?  
> 
> If people are paying to attend, then why do you care?

Unfortunately, like those darned kids that are disruptive in the back
row of church, it annoys those around them that are trying to pay
attention.. loud keyboards, inappropriate giggles, etc.

I understand why it's annoying... and it is disrespectful to the
speaker.  Nothing like being the guy standing up there and 1/2 of the
audience not paying attention.  I'd rather they not show up at all.

If you are so important that you need to be working while listening,
stay in your hotel room and listen via the net feed.  That will allow
you to talk on the phone at the same time.

Sean Figgins wrote:
> When I manage to go, I notice that the only attendees that pay
> 100% attention are usually the people from abroad.

Perhaps the folks from abroad are trying to do a mental translation of
what is being said.  Or maybe they just aren't as rude as the folks that
have been to every meeting and have seen all this stuff before (and yet
continue to attend every time).

AlanC
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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Koch, Christian]

Thanks for the justification...



-Original Message-
From: Joel Jaeggli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Koch, Christian
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; nanog-futures@nanog.org 

Sent: Mon Jul 14 23:23:52 2008
Subject: Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

Koch, Christian wrote:
> 43 was my first nanog - needless to say, majority of the people 
> attending were on laptops not paying attention to the presenter.
> 
> We all have jobs, but if you can't leave your job for a few days w/o 
> needing to be in front of your computer doing _something_ , send someone 
> else to the conference who will benefit from the material being discussed...

It's a community full of high-functional Asberger's sufferers... As are 
a lot of engineering disciplines. It's hard to assert that they aren't 
paying attention without testing that hypothesis. Given the quantity of 
feedback that we receive about the quality of the program from people 
who are alleged to not be paying attention, I would conclude otherwise.

The NANOG culture is substantially different for a lot of conference 
environments one might attend, I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

> Surely I understand situations arise where you have to fire up your vpn 
> and do something, and that's foreseeable, but if you're going to just go 
> to the con to be on your laptop all day, what is the point?
> 
> ck
> 
> --
> Christian Koch
> Sr. Network Engineer
> 95 Christopher Columbus Drive
> Jersey City, NJ 07302
> Direct:212/334.8551 Mobile:917/346.6133
> 
> 
> -Original Message-----
> From: Philip Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: nanog-futures@nanog.org 
> Sent: Mon Jul 14 22:52:44 2008
> Subject: Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...
> 
> Robert Seastrom said the following on 7/7/08 05:16:
>  > It seems that Bhutan is having trouble with web surfing and gaming
>  > during their sessions:
>  >
>  > http://uk.reuters.com/article/technologyNewsMolt/idUKB12933220080630
> 
> It is a thought though...
> 
> Should we try a NANOG without network or power provision in the main
> plenary room? People would have to listen to the presenter with 100%
> attention then. Would this make the programme better? Would there be
> more Q&A? Would there be more discussion in panel sessions? Would it
> make NANOG better overall?
> 
> Some meetings I go to now have enforced laptop bans so that the topics
> under discussion have less chance of distracted participants.
> 
> (I still remember some of the feedback from the NANOG IPv6 hour back in
> February - even having no IPv4 connectivity for 60 minutes was
> equivalent to the end of the world for some people. Left me wondering
> what the actual plenary session was for.)
> 
> Having just come back from JANOG, while JANOG apparently had wireless
> for the first time ever, there was no power in the room. Longlife
> batteries needed. I noticed the majority of the audience was actually
> sitting and listening to the presentations, and there was good Q&A after
> most of them.
> 
> philip
> --
> 
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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Koch, Christian]

obvious..

And I understand and agree with some things you have stated.

As I mentioned it was my first nanog, and that was my observation and first 
impression.

ck

-Original Message-
From: Sean Figgins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: nanog-futures@nanog.org 
Sent: Mon Jul 14 23:30:39 2008
Subject: Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

Koch, Christian wrote:
> 43 was my first nanog - needless to say, majority of the people 
> attending were on laptops not paying attention to the presenter.

Some people can multi task.  They use their computers to get a better 
view of the presentations, look up relevant material, and be better able 
to ask intelligent questions.  Obviously not all people are completely 
interested in all the presentations, but if you require that they either 
pay 100% attention or leave, I think you'll find that participation will 
actually go down.

> We all have jobs, but if you can't leave your job for a few days w/o 
> needing to be in front of your computer doing _something_ , send someone 
> else to the conference who will benefit from the material being discussed...

Surely you understand that the presentations at NANOG are only part of 
the draw of NANOG.  Many of the presentations are recycled topics from 
other conferences and even earlier NANOG conferences, so many attendees 
have already seen the material, although there may be some new points, 
so while 100% attention is not required, it is still a good idea to keep 
an ear on the presentation.

And there are a good number of people that attend NANOG and only go to 
one or two presentations, or only the BOFs, or only the social events. 
Those are all valid reasons for attendance for some people.

> Surely I understand situations arise where you have to fire up your vpn 
> and do something, and that's foreseeable, but if you're going to just go 
> to the con to be on your laptop all day, what is the point?

I don't think you understand why all the people are at NANOG.  When I 
manage to go, I notice that the only attendees that pay 100% attention 
are usually the people from abroad.

  -Sean

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Sean Figgins]

Koch, Christian wrote:
> 43 was my first nanog - needless to say, majority of the people 
> attending were on laptops not paying attention to the presenter.

Some people can multi task.  They use their computers to get a better 
view of the presentations, look up relevant material, and be better able 
to ask intelligent questions.  Obviously not all people are completely 
interested in all the presentations, but if you require that they either 
pay 100% attention or leave, I think you'll find that participation will 
actually go down.

> We all have jobs, but if you can't leave your job for a few days w/o 
> needing to be in front of your computer doing _something_ , send someone 
> else to the conference who will benefit from the material being discussed...

Surely you understand that the presentations at NANOG are only part of 
the draw of NANOG.  Many of the presentations are recycled topics from 
other conferences and even earlier NANOG conferences, so many attendees 
have already seen the material, although there may be some new points, 
so while 100% attention is not required, it is still a good idea to keep 
an ear on the presentation.

And there are a good number of people that attend NANOG and only go to 
one or two presentations, or only the BOFs, or only the social events. 
Those are all valid reasons for attendance for some people.

> Surely I understand situations arise where you have to fire up your vpn 
> and do something, and that's foreseeable, but if you're going to just go 
> to the con to be on your laptop all day, what is the point?

I don't think you understand why all the people are at NANOG.  When I 
manage to go, I notice that the only attendees that pay 100% attention 
are usually the people from abroad.

  -Sean

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Koch, Christian]

It has no affect on me, personally. I don't care if you go and pay just to get 
a free t-shirt.




--
Christian Koch
Sr. Network Engineer
95 Christopher Columbus Drive
Jersey City, NJ 07302
Direct:212/334.8551 Mobile:917/346.6133


-Original Message-
From: Paul Ferguson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Koch, Christian
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; nanog-futures@nanog.org 

Sent: Mon Jul 14 23:16:20 2008
Subject: Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

- -- "Koch,Christian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Surely I understand situations arise where you have to fire up your vpn
>and do something, and that's foreseeable, but if you're going to just go
>to the con to be on your laptop all day, what is the point?  
>

If people are paying to attend, then why do you care?

- - ferg

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Gt1im1ryuTginDlm9MI+r7Y=
=3EwX
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



--
"Fergie", a.k.a. Paul Ferguson
 Engineering Architecture for the Internet
 fergdawg(at)netzero.net
 ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/


QUALITY TECHNOLOGY SERVICES CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:  This e-mail message 
including its attachments is classified COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL.  It is intended 
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material.  Quality Technology Services controls the distribution of COMPANY 
CONFIDENTIAL assets, as such, any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or 
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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Joel Jaeggli]

Koch, Christian wrote:
> 43 was my first nanog - needless to say, majority of the people 
> attending were on laptops not paying attention to the presenter.
> 
> We all have jobs, but if you can't leave your job for a few days w/o 
> needing to be in front of your computer doing _something_ , send someone 
> else to the conference who will benefit from the material being discussed...

It's a community full of high-functional Asberger's sufferers... As are 
a lot of engineering disciplines. It's hard to assert that they aren't 
paying attention without testing that hypothesis. Given the quantity of 
feedback that we receive about the quality of the program from people 
who are alleged to not be paying attention, I would conclude otherwise.

The NANOG culture is substantially different for a lot of conference 
environments one might attend, I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

> Surely I understand situations arise where you have to fire up your vpn 
> and do something, and that's foreseeable, but if you're going to just go 
> to the con to be on your laptop all day, what is the point?
> 
> ck
> 
> --
> Christian Koch
> Sr. Network Engineer
> 95 Christopher Columbus Drive
> Jersey City, NJ 07302
> Direct:212/334.8551 Mobile:917/346.6133
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Philip Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: nanog-futures@nanog.org 
> Sent: Mon Jul 14 22:52:44 2008
> Subject: Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...
> 
> Robert Seastrom said the following on 7/7/08 05:16:
>  > It seems that Bhutan is having trouble with web surfing and gaming
>  > during their sessions:
>  >
>  > http://uk.reuters.com/article/technologyNewsMolt/idUKB12933220080630
> 
> It is a thought though...
> 
> Should we try a NANOG without network or power provision in the main
> plenary room? People would have to listen to the presenter with 100%
> attention then. Would this make the programme better? Would there be
> more Q&A? Would there be more discussion in panel sessions? Would it
> make NANOG better overall?
> 
> Some meetings I go to now have enforced laptop bans so that the topics
> under discussion have less chance of distracted participants.
> 
> (I still remember some of the feedback from the NANOG IPv6 hour back in
> February - even having no IPv4 connectivity for 60 minutes was
> equivalent to the end of the world for some people. Left me wondering
> what the actual plenary session was for.)
> 
> Having just come back from JANOG, while JANOG apparently had wireless
> for the first time ever, there was no power in the room. Longlife
> batteries needed. I noticed the majority of the audience was actually
> sitting and listening to the presentations, and there was good Q&A after
> most of them.
> 
> philip
> --
> 
> ___
> Nanog-futures mailing list
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> http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog-futures
> 
> QUALITY TECHNOLOGY SERVICES CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message 
> including its attachments is classified COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL. It is 
> intended for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may 
> contain confidential material. Quality Technology Services controls the 
> distribution of COMPANY CONFIDENTIAL assets, as such, any unauthorized 
> review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not 
> the intended recipient, please contact us at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or 
> 866-239-5000 and destroy all copies of the original message. Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Paul Ferguson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

- -- "Koch,Christian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Surely I understand situations arise where you have to fire up your vpn
>and do something, and that's foreseeable, but if you're going to just go
>to the con to be on your laptop all day, what is the point?  
>

If people are paying to attend, then why do you care?

- - ferg

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Version: PGP Desktop 9.6.3 (Build 3017)

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Gt1im1ryuTginDlm9MI+r7Y=
=3EwX
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



--
"Fergie", a.k.a. Paul Ferguson
 Engineering Architecture for the Internet
 fergdawg(at)netzero.net
 ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/



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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Koch, Christian]

43 was my first nanog - needless to say, majority of the people attending were 
on laptops not paying attention to the presenter.

We all have jobs, but if you can't leave your job for a few days w/o needing to 
be in front of your computer doing _something_ , send someone else to the 
conference who will benefit from the material being discussed...

Surely I understand situations arise where you have to fire up your vpn and do 
something, and that's foreseeable, but if you're going to just go to the con to 
be on your laptop all day, what is the point?

ck

--
Christian Koch
Sr. Network Engineer
95 Christopher Columbus Drive
Jersey City, NJ 07302
Direct:212/334.8551 Mobile:917/346.6133


-Original Message-
From: Philip Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: nanog-futures@nanog.org 
Sent: Mon Jul 14 22:52:44 2008
Subject: Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

Robert Seastrom said the following on 7/7/08 05:16:
> It seems that Bhutan is having trouble with web surfing and gaming
> during their sessions:
> 
> http://uk.reuters.com/article/technologyNewsMolt/idUKB12933220080630

It is a thought though...

Should we try a NANOG without network or power provision in the main 
plenary room? People would have to listen to the presenter with 100% 
attention then. Would this make the programme better? Would there be 
more Q&A? Would there be more discussion in panel sessions? Would it 
make NANOG better overall?

Some meetings I go to now have enforced laptop bans so that the topics 
under discussion have less chance of distracted participants.

(I still remember some of the feedback from the NANOG IPv6 hour back in 
February - even having no IPv4 connectivity for 60 minutes was 
equivalent to the end of the world for some people. Left me wondering 
what the actual plenary session was for.)

Having just come back from JANOG, while JANOG apparently had wireless 
for the first time ever, there was no power in the room. Longlife 
batteries needed. I noticed the majority of the audience was actually 
sitting and listening to the presentations, and there was good Q&A after 
most of them.

philip
--

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Re: [Nanog-futures] Bhutan discovers the "NANOG Problem"...

[Philip Smith]

Robert Seastrom said the following on 7/7/08 05:16:
> It seems that Bhutan is having trouble with web surfing and gaming
> during their sessions:
> 
> http://uk.reuters.com/article/technologyNewsMolt/idUKB12933220080630

It is a thought though...

Should we try a NANOG without network or power provision in the main 
plenary room? People would have to listen to the presenter with 100% 
attention then. Would this make the programme better? Would there be 
more Q&A? Would there be more discussion in panel sessions? Would it 
make NANOG better overall?

Some meetings I go to now have enforced laptop bans so that the topics 
under discussion have less chance of distracted participants.

(I still remember some of the feedback from the NANOG IPv6 hour back in 
February - even having no IPv4 connectivity for 60 minutes was 
equivalent to the end of the world for some people. Left me wondering 
what the actual plenary session was for.)

Having just come back from JANOG, while JANOG apparently had wireless 
for the first time ever, there was no power in the room. Longlife 
batteries needed. I noticed the majority of the audience was actually 
sitting and listening to the presentations, and there was good Q&A after 
most of them.

philip
--

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