[neonixie-l] Smartsocket yahoo group

[【ツ】John Smout]

OK folks,

Chris Barron has now made me a moderator of the smartsockets group on Yahoo.

I don’t see any pending applications for membership, so if anyone wants to 
join, then they should do so at:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/smartsockets/info 


Best wishes,

John S


> On 6 Aug 2019, at 20:44, Bill Notfaded  wrote:
> 
> Funny you brought this up Mahdi... Michail Wilson aka M1 on here ran into the 
> same problem when we were wanting the B-5971 smartsocket documentation and 
> code... unfortunately for those all the code wasn't there but Michail did the 
> work and got it working anyhow after we ordered PCB and parts.  Big props to 
> Michail for making this happen too.  For a little show check out the finished 
> smartsockets video he made:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSH4eYywX1A 
> 
> 
> Bill

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[neonixie-l] Smartsockets

[【ツ】John Smout]

> On 6 Aug 2019, at 18:28, Mahdi Al Husseini  wrote:
> 
> Thanks John, tremendously helpful! If you end up becoming a moderator, please 
> accept my request to join the group. 

For those not yet in the smartsocket group, Chris Barron posted this to the 
group today regarding my becoming a moderator of the aforementioned. I hope I 
am not telling tales out of school if I repost it here.

—snip—

Sounds like a great idea John. (when I've worked out the Yahoo way to do it you 
will no doubt get a confirmation email)

Apologies to anyone who has been left in the cold, I have had various IT issues 
(trying to merge old Yahoo accounts), and was hit by the death of my father 6 
months ago, so I haven't been spending much time on anything other than work 
and home life. I feel this is changing for the better now though..

Those of you who don't know John, I have known him from the first Neonixie 
group, (can't believe it's so long ago, my daughter was just a child then and 
she's now 23 !).. he has very high standards (be warned ;) ) and is a 
defintie asset as far as I'm concerned, and as I'm sure everyone else is aware 
of

I am warmed by people's continued interest in this project and feel it should 
remain a community affair (a very esoteric one at that)  and would like to give 
reassurance that I have no interest in monetising this work. All I ask is that 
anyone using it, if apprpriate, credits me as the original authour in some way 
(you never know when you need that sort of thing on your CV :) )

I have spent a lot of my leisure time motorcycling and as we move towards a 
Scottish winter the bike will take second place to my programming interests, 
and I hope to be able to find the time to port this project to a more capable 
microprocessor, and even if I can find some of the clock/four letter word 
projects I messed with and stored on old hard disks somewhere in my study, 
sharing more of that work too.

On that note, I've turned my thinking towards a four letter word tyupe device 
which is time sensitive, so that the type of words being displayed change 
throughout the day. For example around lunchtime food related words are 
displayed, in the morning work related words (unless it's a weekend !) and so 
on.I'ld be happy to share the progress and take/share ideas as it goes 
along.

Anyway, enough from me for now.

Chris

—end snip—

John S

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Re: [neonixie-l] ZM1350 Smart Socket Documentation

[【ツ】John Smout]

> On 6 Aug 2019, at 16:42, Mahdi Al Husseini  wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have documentation for ZM1350 smart sockets? Supposedly that 
> information is filed away in the closed yahoo group smartsockets, but no one 
> has been active there to verify my account to be allowed access.

I’ve written to Chris Barron suggesting he make me a moderator of the group.

Meanwhile I have uploaded docs to:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sqzegpgecm5609n/SMARTSOCKETS.zip?dl=0 


Regards, John S

PS: I still have a few PCBs for ZN1350 smartsockets if anyone is interested.

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Re: [neonixie-l] LED Word Clock

[【ツ】John Smout]

Perhaps it’s worth mentioning that Simon Law and collaborated to amend PCBs and 
code for smartsockets back in 2010, so that they could drive LED ‘Union flag’ 
‘Starburst’ ‘Alphanumeric' displays.

Details etc on the smartsocket group, which is, as always, at:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/smartsockets/info 


John S

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Re: [neonixie-l] Bipco units

[【ツ】John Smout]

I have 8 of these Bipcos, with tubes, two sets of four, built into aviation 
devices. I guess I should do something with them.

John

> On 15 Jul 2019, at 14:24, 'John Rehwinkel' via neonixie-l 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Those Bipco things aren't documented, so they're pretty useless.
> 
> There's documentation out there:
> 
> https://worldpowersystems.com/archives/tube-datasheets/Datasheets/Burroughs-1061K/11.JPG
>  
> 
> 
> A.J. has some documentation on some other ones.
> 
>> Anyone know what to do with old Bipco units for burroughs tubes? I have a 
>> bunch and am wondering what I could use them for(apart from the 
>> obvious), which probably means nothing. Anyone out there need some?
> 
> I'd be interested in some just to have an odd bit of history.
> 
> - John

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Re: [neonixie-l] The Ramen Udon Noodle Vending Machine

[【ツ】John Smout]

How many of these machines are still operating I wonder? It seems there are 
many. Here’s another…

https://youtu.be/733T4O1eW4o

John S


> On 14 Jul 2019, at 07:58, Tidak Ada  wrote:
> 
> This reminds me a pommes chips deepfrying vendimg machine that stood at a 
> railway station here. I can not remember it had a nixie display, but 
> nevertheless it was amazing to see it at work!

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[neonixie-l] The Ramen Udon Noodle Vending Machine

[【ツ】John Smout]

The Ramen Udon Noodle Vending Machine with nixie countdown - how did we live 
without it?

https://youtu.be/hgN9BX8aux0

John S

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[neonixie-l] Eurorack timing module

[【ツ】John Smout]

I thought this was a rather jolly little video featuring Doepfer Eurorack music 
synthesiser modules.
https://youtu.be/15I2BcjC_VA

John S

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Re: [neonixie-l] OT - 20 chr VFDs >blech

[【ツ】John Smout]

Hi Keith,

I just found out where my boards are. I got hit with some customs duty and I 
only just got a bill to say so today. My displays should be with me on Monday 
now as I’ve sent the government its due.

The manual was sent out to me via second class post yesterday, so I might get 
it tomorrow or perhaps on Monday. I told the guy there was no hurry and second 
class was fine, because he was paying for the postage and I didn’t even know 
where my boards had disappeared to or, indeed, if I’d ever see them.

I am sure that among us all, we shall find a way to drive these babies.

Best wishes,

John S

> On 31 May 2019, at 19:53, Keith Moore  wrote:
> 
> John, 
> 
> Great. Let me know when you get this.  These boards look luscious.  It looks 
> like a parallel interface in, but the mapping of the pins would be tedious 
> without manual/schematics. 
> - Keith 

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Re: [neonixie-l] OT - 20 chr VFDs >blech

[【ツ】John Smout]

I have a complete manual, inc. schematics, for Alvin G’s 'Dinosaur Eggs' on its 
way to me. This should be compatible with the VFD display boards.

https://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?name=dinosaur+eggs=20=name=advanced

Once I have the manual, I’ll scan the relevant pages and post them somewhere.

Best wishes,

John S

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Re: [neonixie-l] OT - 20 chr VFDs >blech

[【ツ】John Smout]

I am not having much success with a schematic. I just wrote to another contact 
who may be able to help.

I am also not having much success with delivery of the boards either. I 
received a note that they had cleared UK customs. I received a further message 
that they tried to deliver to me on Monday (a public holiday in the UK). If 
they did then they left no note and I was in the room next to the front door 
all day. The tracking number now doesn’t show up on the system. So I don’t know 
if I shall ever see these displays or not.

John S

> On 30 May 2019, at 04:12, Keith Moore  wrote:
> 
> I grabbed some, too. Did you find a datasheet or Alvin manual? 
> 
> It is a parallel interface but it'll be interesting to try and reverse 
> engineer this. These are lovely display boards. 

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Re: [neonixie-l] audiophiles are crazy...

[【ツ】John Smout]

> On 29 May 2019, at 16:19, Jonathan Peakall  wrote:
> Audiophools are really on another planet! Occasionally when I am bored I will 
> go look at cryogenically cables and the like: 
> https://www.takefiveaudio.com/contents/89-cryo 
> 
> Simply hilarious.
> 

I wonder how many audiophools syringe their ears before each listening or, 
worse, insist that their audiences do likewise. This would surely have more 
effect on sound quality than this electrickery.

John S

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Re: [neonixie-l] OT - 20 chr VFDs >blech

[【ツ】John Smout]

> On 22 May 2019, at 18:13, Jon Jackson  wrote:
> 
> John,
> 
> I have a couple of these 20-digit VFD displays.  The label says it's a 
> Noritake itran model FG2013A1 display which is listed as discontinued on the 
> Noritake web site.
> 
> A search has not come up with a datasheet.  Do you have a copy of the 
> datasheet you could share?
> 
> Jon D.

Noritake itran will be Noritake itron, Jon.

The old kiss-off came from pinballspareparts.com 
, they are not playing ball as it were. I know 
they sell the manuals. I was hoping they’d offer to scan the page for me as I'd 
bought 10 boards. I may rattle their cage again - what have I to lose?

Just thought of someone else to ask… a walking encyclopaedia of all things 
pinball. All is not yet lost.

Incidentally, anyone visiting London into pinball, with all its neon and 
flashing light loveliness, should visit http://www.flipoutlondon.com/ 
 but check opening times. Over 50 machines to 
play, in a permanent location run by collectors and enthusiasts.

John S

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Re: [neonixie-l] OT - 20 chr VFDs >blech

[【ツ】John Smout]

I don’t have a datasheet, nor do I have my displays yet. My main pinball man 
has drawn a blank on getting me a schematic and he’s been thorough. The manual 
is available from Marco in the US and the Australian seller also has manuals - 
https://www.pinballspareparts.com.au 


I have asked the Australian place if they can send me a schematic just for the 
display. I await their response. If they are good boys they will do me a scan.

Andrew Jardine lurks here - he is good with VFDs such as these. I already 
suggested I send him a board to play with, but he’s not responded yet with his 
address. Andrew, where are you boyo? 

Regards,

John S

> On 22 May 2019, at 18:13, Jon Jackson  > wrote:
> 
> John,
> 
> I have a couple of these 20-digit VFD displays.  The label says it's a 
> Noritake itran model FG2013A1 display which is listed as discontinued on the 
> Noritake web site.
> 
> A search has not come up with a datasheet.  Do you have a copy of the 
> datasheet you could share?
> 
> Jon D.

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Re: [neonixie-l] OT - 20 chr VFDs >blech

[【ツ】John Smout]

I don’t have a datasheet, nor do I have my displays yet. My main pinball man 
has drawn a blank on getting me a schematic and he’s been thorough. The manual 
is available from Marco in the US and the Australian seller also has manuals - 
https://www.pinballspareparts.com.au 


I have asked the Australian place if they can send me a schematic just for the 
display. I await their response. If they are good boys they will do me a scan.

Andrew Jardine lurks here - he is good with VFDs such as these. I already 
suggested I send him a board to play with, but he’s not responded yet with his 
address. Andrew, where are you boyo? 

Regards,

John S

> On 22 May 2019, at 18:13, Jon Jackson  > wrote:
> 
> John,
> 
> I have a couple of these 20-digit VFD displays.  The label says it's a 
> Noritake itran model FG2013A1 display which is listed as discontinued on the 
> Noritake web site.
> 
> A search has not come up with a datasheet.  Do you have a copy of the 
> datasheet you could share?
> 
> Jon D.

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Re: [neonixie-l] US source for French Enamel Varnish - Fire Red?

[【ツ】John Smout]

> On 20 May 2019, at 16:24, Robert L  wrote:
> 
> Hey John,
> 
> From your reply: I have tried water based Pebeo Vitrail and been unable to 
> get an even coating.
> 
> The product I have on order is specified as a solvent based formulation that 
> may be thinned with mineral or white spirit... not a water based solution. 
> Not clear this is what you previously used.
> 
> In any case, I'd already placed the order and will give it a try! I'll report 
> back here on my experience.
> 
> Thanks for your comments and best regards,
> Bob

The stuff I bought is called Pebeo Vitrea 160. I thought I was buying the 
spirit stuff. Be careful out there, as it’s an easy mistake to make.

John S

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Re: [neonixie-l] US source for French Enamel Varnish - Fire Red?

[【ツ】John Smout]

I have tried water based Pebeo Vitrail and been unable to get an even coating. 
It dries quite slowly and I get a gradation as the coating slides down due to 
gravity. Admittedly I was trying to coat 200mm test tubes, not a small nixie. 
Maybe it’s OK for that but don’t try and coat a Dalibor.

You can make your own FEV, french enamel varnish, if you buy shellac, available 
as dry flakes or liquid, some methylated spirits (aka denatured alcohol), and 
some spirit dye of a suitable hue (usually this is a powder). Mix to suit.

John S


> On 20 May 2019, at 03:41, Robert L  wrote:
> 
> Many thanks folks... including a couple of private messages...
> 
> Bought this on Amazon:  Pebeo Vitrail Glass Paint 45Ml Crimson
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001DVSRF0/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8=1
> 
> Now to create a small dust free space with decent ventilation!
> 
> Onward!
> 
> Bob
> 
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Re: [neonixie-l] OT - 20 chr VFDs >blech

[【ツ】John Smout]

> On 16 May 2019, at 20:37, Bill Notfaded  wrote:
> 
> Did you get your ordered boards John?  I'm curious how they come apart.  

10 boards, 20 displays, are on their way from Australia to UK as we speak. I 
just hope I don’t get hammered for import duty. I only went for these because 
they are 20 digit Union Flag style and I’ve never seen any longer than this.

The displays will no doubt unsolder from the PCB easily enough, but as the 
driving circuitry is on there, I may keep them as is.

A good source of similar 16 digit serial driven displays are available in 12v 
or 5v from old AWP and SWP machines. These choke at high speed, but are really 
easy to drive. Beware of used ones as many of these are dim, mottled and at the 
end of their life. If you can find access to the filament pins, driving them 
with 12v for a short while (the filament will glow hot) can renovate them, but 
this can only be done a finite number of times before the filament burns out. 
Fine for a machine which is only switched on for a short while, ie home use. 
For a clock, not so great.

For the uninitiated, UK slot machines have these trade terms and come under 
different licensing laws, which may depend on the premises, from kebab shop to 
casino:

AWP means Amusement With Prizes. They provide some level of player interaction, 
perhaps hold buttons on slot reels for example. They do not depend on the skill 
of the player. The prize is usually coins, tokens or more plays and are 
regulated as gambling devices.
SWP means Skill With Prizes which do depend on the skill of the player. These 
might be quiz machines which might be considered to be a variation of video 
games. Maybe crane machines where you pick up goods to drop into a hopper. 
These have software control of the gripper timing and strength that will 
guarantee you lose most of the time. It appears to be pure skill, but borders 
on the criminal in operation - perhaps only one in ten tries will have a strong 
enough electro-magnetic grip to ever hold an object. You have no chance with 
heavy objects like watches, always prominently displayed.

It’s always been my contention that it is far cheaper to buy the entire machine 
and mess with it at home than throw money away in an arcade. You can usually 
sell it at the very least for what you paid for it.

John S

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Re: [neonixie-l] Pricing Insanity

[【ツ】John Smout]

Was he selling the donkey also?

John S

> On 12 May 2019, at 22:08, Thomas Kummer  wrote:
> 
> I’m tempted to ask the guy if they come with a bottle of KY jelly to shove 
> ‘em up his ass. lol

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Re: [neonixie-l] OT - 20 chr VFDs >blech

[【ツ】John Smout]

> On 8 May 2019, at 19:01, Dylan Distasio  wrote:
> 
> Good point.  BTW, just a heads up, but based on the same seller's eBay 
> listing, it looks like all of these boards being sold were returns initially.

Also a good point. I await their arrival to see what dogs I have bought, or not.

Best wishes,

John

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Re: [neonixie-l] OT - 20 chr VFDs >blech

[【ツ】John Smout]

> On 8 May 2019, at 18:26, Dylan Distasio  wrote:
> 
> Thanks, I was about to place an order but the shipping to the US is extremely 
> expensive, so now I'm debating (It's $64AUD for the cheapest!).

Maybe. With US shipping based on 10 PCBs that is US $4 for each 20 character 
VFD and people easily pay $4 for single nixie tubes. These are big heavy 
display boards to ship.

John S

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Re: [neonixie-l] First nixie clock: do I need to switch anode?

[【ツ】John Smout]

On 2 May 2019, at 18:41, Paul Andrews  wrote:
> 
> I also want to use Osmond to design some simple PCBs on the Mac - I am 
> interested in producing PCBs that are themselves a work of art (as far as I 
> can make them), and I think this would be a great project for that. 

I am a beta tester for Osmond PCB and know it quite well. So if you need help 
or a second pair of eyes, do let me know.

John S

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Re: [neonixie-l] IN-18

[【ツ】John Smout]

Seconded.

> On 30 Apr 2019, at 20:51, Nick  wrote:
> 
> Replies off-list and directly to the vendor please.
> 
> On Tuesday, 30 April 2019 13:57:19 UTC+1, Юрий Овчинников wrote:
> Sale IN-18 - 42 pcs. for $45 ea.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Tube/bulbs for colon separators?

[【ツ】John Smout]

I bought a bunch of little neons on Aliexpress in three different sizes. I know 
some of you despise Aliexpress, but these items arrived very promptly and I 
have no complaint.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/30pcs-Neonlight-Indicator-Lamp-Assorted-4-10mm-5-12mm-6-16mm-10pcs-each-Red-Neon-Light/32343993534.html
 


Just to confirm, the quantity is 60 pcs in total, 20 pcs of each and not as 
suggested by the item title 30 and 10.

John S


> On 27 Apr 2019, at 16:07, Jasper C.  wrote:
> 
> What are my options for colon separators to use in a nixie clock?  I'm 
> looking for something that works with small tubes, say GR10M/U or even 
> better, IN-17s.
> 
> I know there's the INS-1, but it does still seem a little big.  I also know 
> Yan has some 3mm neon bulbs on his store, but are those a good match to 
> nixies?

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Re: [neonixie-l] Universal Nixie Tube Tester - pro version

[【ツ】John Smout]

On 23 Apr 2019, at 21:32, Paul Andrews  wrote:
> 
> Well for me, part of the artistry is creating a device like this. 

The craftsmanship and technical prowess shown is without question. I think we 
can all say that it is really excellent. I certainly admire the dedication that 
has gone into it all. If you say this constitutes art, then it is art, simply 
because you say it is. But if art is perhaps conscious self-expression, then 
what is the art conveying exactly, according to the artist, over and above the 
intent to test a range of nixies?

John S

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Re: [neonixie-l] Universal Nixie Tube Tester - pro version

[【ツ】John Smout]

I am going to be very very naughty here and perhaps play Devil’s advocate if I 
may, for just a brief moment? Yes it is a wonderful project indeed, the 
Universal Nixie Tube Tester - pro version™ - one to be admired greatly, but 
I’ve seen similar things happen to people of all varieties, especially 
photographers, painters and musicians. People start with an emotional/artistic 
attraction to something. After a while they start collecting associated kit for 
its own sake and instead of doing something artistic with it, they spend more 
time messing with collecting/cleaning/testing/calibrating/documenting than they 
do actually making something with the stuff they collected. I think it’s a 
creative trap, but maybe creativity is low on some people’s to do list and we 
need all sorts of attitudes.

My question is, once you find your tubes are all in tip-top condition or not, 
what do you intend to do with them next?

I shall now run and hide behind the sofa to avoid the incoming brown and sticky 
that will interface with my round and twirly, but please take this in the 
quasi-humorous spirit it was intended.

John S

> On 23 Apr 2019, at 20:03, Marcin Saj  wrote:
> 
> I would like to show off my new project.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Unusual Gabel lamp

[【ツ】John Smout]

The guy messaged me to say it isn’t neon. I’ve asked if it is fluo ’n’ phosphor 
and if it is still for sale.

John S


> On 20 Apr 2019, at 17:41, jb-electronics  wrote:
> 
> Fascinating! Does it still have neon? You could hold it to a plasma globe to 
> see. If it has been sold it would be great to get in touch with the buyer. 
> Can you find out?
> 
> Cheers
> Jens
> 
> On 2019-04-20 7:28 a.m., 【ツ】John Smout wrote:
>> I came across this rare lamp for sale today - the guy wants £500 GBP. 
>> Someone is already in discussion with the seller, so I expect it has sold. I 
>> am not sure if it is neon or not, but I suspect so.
>> 
>> The John Gabel Manufacturing Co. had the distinction of having manufactured 
>> the first true jukebox in 1906. Also they made the first light up jukebox in 
>> 1936, the Starlight. Their last jukebox was the now extremely rare Kuro of 
>> 1940. I think two examples survive, one of which was imported into Holland 
>> from the US.
>> 
>> The lamp
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Art Deco Gabel Kuro jukebox
>> 
>> 
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Re: [neonixie-l] Welcome & please introduce yourself!

[【ツ】John Smout]

Interesting VFD project Hannah, I am sure you will find yourself at home here 
and plenty of good advice should you need it.

If you have a problem with sourcing obsolete LM9022 filament driver ICs, you 
can use an LM4871 - someone here proved it is the same die, just rebadged.

John S


> On 19 Apr 2019, at 12:42, Hannah Mishin  wrote:
> 
> Hello!
> I'm Hannah and I am in NYC.  I am really interested in old technologies as 
> they correlate to modern ideas.
> I am currently working on a VFD build (no Nixie specific experience) and 
> playing with a flying spot scanner!
> Here is a blog on my VFD project.  
> https://hannahmishin.com/blog/2017/4/30/russian-tri-color-vfd-indicator-clock 
> 
> I am an Open Source Hardware supporter and believe in the sharing of 
> knowledge (its how I know so much of what I do).
> Cheers!

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Re: [neonixie-l] B-5971 Smartsocket / Driver

[【ツ】John Smout]

Just be aware that there is sometimes a startup issue with smartsockets. This 
is something I have experienced myself and others have reported it also. This 
results in a mangled display. Usually removing and restoring power will cure 
the issue. Sometimes it might take a couple of tries. Once in operation there 
is no further issue.

What I think is happening is that when the sockets start up they 
self-enumerate, the first socket daisy-chains to the next and they assign 
themselves a number. If a later one in the chain is not yet ready, the 
enumeration fails. I’ve had displays like 1-2-1-2 where I would expect 1-2-3-4 
for example.

The possible fix might be to use the reset pin on the PIC, but the fuse for the 
reset pin was disabled when the code was compiled. Fortunately this pin is not 
used as an output and is still available. When I made the ZM1350 smartsocket 
PCBs I added access to the reset pins so that the smartockets could be reset in 
reverse order, to guarantee that each is ready at startup. The fuse for the 
reset pin can then be changed in the programmer - I use a Pickit - once the 
current hex file has been loaded into it. This code can then be saved back out. 
Be sure to use a pullup on the reset lines if they are to be used.

It would then be up to whatever master controller you devise to send resets to 
each of the smartsockets in turn before sending messages to them.

Maybe there is a way to ensure appropriate delays for each socket by delaying 
power to them - any suggestions?

John S


> On 6 Apr 2019, at 09:14, Thomas Kummer  wrote:
> 
> Put me down for one kit too please. 
> Thank you, Michail 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Apr 4, 2019, at 22:06, Bill Notfaded  > wrote:
> 
>> I'm in put me down for two sets at least.  Did you get the PIC hex too?  
>> This is exciting stuff!  Thanks Michail!
>> 
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019, 7:03 PM Michail Wilson > > wrote:
>> I was able to get the files from Yahoo Groups.
>> 
>> I've decided to go about putting the kits together myself since I will have 
>> about 24 tubes.
>> 
>> So, I just ordered 40 sets of the boards to have extras in case anyone wants 
>> kits.
>> 
>> Michail 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com  
>> [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com ] On 
>> Behalf Of Bill Notfaded
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2019 8:34 PM
>> To: neonixie-l
>> Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] B-5971 Smartsocket / Driver
>> 
>> Ok guys I'm in too!  Let's do this.  I posted asking for the files from the 
>> Yahoo group a while ago... We need the PIC code for that PCB.  I have a 
>> mother that's hoping she and my old V2 clock will have a baby soon.
>> 
>> The trifecta would be sawt!  I picked up six from that auction too.  
>> Only 3 sets are left.  I ran up those two B-7971 tubes a little then held 
>> off... They sold for 530$for two I think a new record.
>> 
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