[neonixie-l] Re: Great new clock....

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Now, if only these clocks were neon.swapping NE2's for the LEDs is 
certainly possible; my big clock uses 306 individual NE2's. The bulbs are 
not controlled individually, I have them grouped to 72 individual drivers.

I recall that Burroughs made alphabetical nixie tubes. Not segmented tubes, 
like the 7971, but real fully-formed cathodes shaped like letters. The 5018 
purportedly had letters ABCDEFGHJK (note that I' is missing), though I've 
never seen one. If any of you have been fortunate to make a project with 
these, please post a picture.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron themed clothing!

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

No doubt the caption for a CD47 would be "Size DOES matter"

It would be fun to get some orange LEDs (I know, it's blasphemybut at 
least they run at safe voltages) and make the dekatron "functional".
Would fit in with the new rage of wearable computing devices.

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[neonixie-l] Re: A truely "high-power" schematic generator.

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

And that remarkable machine even uses nixie tubes

I always wondered how schematics and other diagrams from that era were 
produced with such high quality; no offense to the drafting community, 
hand-drawn schematics never looked that crisp.
There were other CRT-based phototypesetting machines from the 1960's, and 
I'm sure some of them were used for schematics, etc. Apparently Linotype 
held-out with mechanical solutions as long as it could; kind of reminds me 
of Teletype.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Will Nixies match correctly if they all come from the same case/batch?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

I would buy the box of 50. As someone else said, you can resell them if you 
wish. More likely, you will become a nixie junkie and will want to make 
other projects.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Clock - Time Cycle enough to protect against cathode poisoning? Without slot machine effect

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

I have a few Burroughs 5031 tubes that appear to be poisoned on some 
digits, and have not responded to attempts to restore them with 
higher-than-normal current.
The glass is darkened on the inside, which I assume is deposited metal. 
Cathodes are still visible.


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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Clock - Time Cycle enough to protect against cathode poisoning? Without slot machine effect

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

I just rotated the 15 tubes in my big clock after 11 months. They display 
the same numeral 24/7, which I believe is the worst-case scenario for 
cathode poisoning.

12 tubes showed no signs of degradation
3 tubes showed slight degradation:

   - A slightly dim tube is now fine after running 12 hours at nominal 
   current
   - A slightly dimmer tube is better after 12 hours at nominal current, 
   but not quite healed. Perhaps it will take a few days
   - Lastly, a '2' was not illuminating at the center. After 12 hours, it's 
   fully illuminated, though slightly dimmer


I did not check all digits for each tube; I simply rotated them to their 
next position. So it is possible that other digits are damaged. After the 
above 3 tubes have settled-in, I will do a thorough check of all cathodes.

Conclusion ? Cathode poisoning definitely happens, though it seems to take 
quite awhile. It also appears to be reversible as long as it was not 
severe. I'll post an update in a few weeks when I do thorough testing.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie Clock - Time Cycle enough to protect against cathode poisoning? Without slot machine effect

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

If your tubes are socketed, you can rotate them yearly. It's a bit of a 
pain if you have several clocks (grrr...I have 5 clocks, and one of them 
 has 15 tubes)

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Side Viewing Nixie Tubes -- Which are considered the best aesthetically?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

OK, top-view tubes.

Burroughs tubes are my absolute favorites for their quality and 
reliability. Even tubes over 50 years old look great.
5092's are frequently available on ebay; there are usually some available 
as buy-it-now at a higher price. Sockets are readily available.
6091's have the same electrical & mechanical pinout, and are larger. I 
rarely see them on ebay, except 2 weeks ago there were 2 of them.
Avoid 5031/5032 tubes; they are not nearly as reliable. I believe those are 
earlier production models, though they have the same pinout as 5092's.
And by all means, stay away from IN-1 nixies. They are larger, cheaper, and 
readily available. I tried some in a project last year and I would get a 
failure every few days (my big clock has 15 tubes)

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Re: [neonixie-l] Side Viewing Nixie Tubes -- Which are considered the best aesthetically?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

IN-18 tubes are the largest readily-available tubes, and they have 
properly-formed '2' and '5' numerals. Many of the Soviet-era tubes use the 
same cathode for '2' and '5', hence they dont appear as aesthetic.
Now, if you have unlimited money, there was a set of four ZM568 tubes on 
EBay for about $1500 US.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Crazy nixie hater

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Imagine how many nixie tubes are entombed inside obsolete equipment buried 
in landfills around the planet...
It's almost worse than being destroyed, because you know they are out 
there, and many of them probably still work, but you cant get to them. 
Buried treasure.

Then again, I'm sure many of us are guilty of hoarding nixies that may 
never get built into a project; the tubes in my desk clock set in my 
junkbox for 30 years.

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[neonixie-l] Re: MC34063 SMPS questions

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Do you have a scope ? If not, your only other solution is to run extensive 
simulations. We really need to see what's happening in the circuit.

The large voltage droop (25V) at 15-20mA load-current suggests your 
converter is running at a really low frequency, maybe 150Hz.

What Vcc are you running ? Hard for me to determine if your inductor is 
getting saturated (Isat is 1.2 amps from the website)

When you changed the timing capacitor, did you increase it or decrease it ? 
I would expect that decreasing the capacitance value would increase the 
converter's frequency and produce less droop/ripple at the +180V output. 
Switching losses increase at higher frequencies, but my gut feeling is that 
the temperature increase you saw is not caused by this, unless the 
frequency was too high for Q1 & Q3 to handle, in which case the MOSFET 
might not be turning-on or shutting-off completely. This is where the scope 
would really help.

If you increased the timing-capacitor value, and reduced the frequency of 
operation, you have to be careful about dumping too much current into the 
inductor, which leads to saturation and also higher conduction losses in 
Q2. You should be able to keep the IRF740 cool enough with a small heatsink 
once the design is tweaked.




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[neonixie-l] Re: MC34063 SMPS questions

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

1. If you are referring to C2, it's just for supply-filtering. It really 
isnt necessary in my opinion if your DC supply is well-filtered. C8 will 
provide some filtering for the  current-feedback sensing via R3 thru R6; 
without C8 I can imagine there would be some ringing when Q2 turns off. The 
circuit appears to use voltage-feedback (Vref signal) derived from the 180V 
output, so the sizing of C2 and C8 will have only second-order effects in 
controlling the 180V output. R7, R10, and especially R9 determine the +180V 
output.

2. This is the voltage-regulator "doing it's job"; the closed-loop system 
is intended to keep a constant voltage at the 180V output. Now, the reason 
why the +540V output swings higher when the 180V supply is loaded -down 
would be more apparent if you probed around with an oscilloscope, or ran a 
simulation. I use Linear Technology devices in my designs, and run 
extensive LTSpice simuations on them; I did not find a SPICE model on 
Exar's website. Anyways, what probably is happening is that when the +180v 
supply is loaded-down, the amount of ripple-voltage increases, which still 
gives an average of +180V. However, the voltage-tripler will use the *peak* 
voltage from the 180V supply, and under heavier loading the peak value on 
the 180V output will increase.

3. The values of the 2uF caps is really determined by the amount of load 
current. Recall that I=C dV/dt, so if you increase the load current, you 
have to increase the capacitance proportionately to maintain the same 
ripple-voltage (assuming the frequency to the DC-DC converter is not 
changed). Be aware that C4 has to provide current for the +180V supply and 
also for the tripler, so it should be the largest capacitance. It is pretty 
important that the other 2uF caps have the same value and they should be 
the same type & manufacturer, because their voltage -rating is less than 
540V output. This means that you are relying upon charge-sharing to keep 
the capacitor voltage within the rated limit. I recommend you read the 
manufacturer datasheet to see what they recommend for sizing 
balance-resistors to keep the capacitor voltage safe for all conditions, 
etc. Better yet, use 600V capacitors then you dont have to worry at all 
about balancing resistors.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Direct Drive For Z5660M Tubes?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Are you open to designing your own from scratch, including the PCB ? It's a 
lot more work but you have full bragging-rights.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Question on Z5660M Tubes- What kind of gas and age survival?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Ebay has a lot of inexpensive spectroscopes; you can have a look at what 
your tubes produce. I might even give it a try for my own amusement

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Re: [neonixie-l] Question on Z5660M Tubes- What kind of gas and age survival?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Nixie tubes have an internal pressure of about 1/100 atmospheric (basically 
a vacuum), so I would be more concerned about atmospheric gases, such as 
oxygen, leaking-in rather than the neon leaking out. I suppose you could 
buy some spares and store them in a container pressurized with Neon; I 
wouldn't be surprised if they would last thousands of years under those 
conditions.. Many of my nixies are 50 years old, and all of them work fine, 
so I wouldn't worry about gas-retention for  tubes made in the 1980's.

If you are concerned about the radioactive decay of the Krypton-85 
(half-life of 10 years), just run the tubes at a higher voltage, with an 
appropriately upsized series resistor. My anode supplies (+225 to +350VDC) 
are significantly higher than the ionization voltage (about 170V). Yes, it 
does waste some energy (about 2.5 watts on my clocks). I'm hoping to fix 
that on my wristwatch, which reduces the anode supply after ionization to 
improve battery-life.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Cathode poisoning- from being off?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

None of my nixie tubes show degradation from being stored for years, though 
I have had < 10% show slight stubbornness the first time they are fired-up. 
After a few minutes they are fine. The clock on my desk uses 5092's that 
sat in my junkbox for 30 years, and they are perfect. I "rotate" the tubes 
in my clock yearly, and have not observed signs of cathode-poisoning. For 
example, the tens-hours digits will illuminate only 0,1,2. When it is 
placed into the unit-seconds, which illuminates all 10 numerals, all appear 
clean. I dont know how long it takes to poison cathodes; my own data 
suggests it takes years.

It's really hard to know the history of tubes you buy; I've had 100% 
success with 5092 and 6091 tubes I bought. Some were new-old-stock, some 
used, and a few unknown. All were good.

I've had problems with 5031's (presumably cathode-poisoning, but they wont 
rejuvenate), and IN-1's (short lifespan from metal-whisker growth that 
shorts adjacent cathodes to eachother).

I've stayed away from the larger tubes, mainly because the high-price.

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[neonixie-l] Re: B7971 Ebay prices now

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

 If you think that's bad, check out the Z568M's.set of 4 for $1500 US

I can't imagine what a set of six CD47's would go for.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Nixie Tube Age Matter?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

You are talking about different manufacturers, and also different ages. 
Best thing I can recommend is to ask for data from members in this group.
The big clock I made last year used fifteen IN-1 tubes manufactured in the 
1980's, and I had tube failures every few days.
I replaced them with Burroughs 6091 tubes manufactured 1963 & 1967, and 
there have been zero failures or degradation after 1 year.
So, even though the IN-1's were about 20 years younger, they were 
definitely inferior. One would expect that newer manufacturing processes 
would produce more reliable tubes, but that's not the case here.

Even with the same manufacturer, different tubes will have different 
lifespans. I have several Burroughs 5031 tubes that appear to have 
cathode-poisoning because some numerals are not fully illuminated. I cant 
read many date-codes, but they appear to be ~1963. I have tried and failed 
to rejuvenate them with higher current. I also have a several dozen 
Burroughs 5092 tubes, many of which were made in 1963, yet none of them 
show any signs of degradation. It appears that Burroughs made a substantial 
improvement with the 5092, though I have not been able to find out what 
they did. Perhaps it was the addition of mercury, but that is just a guess.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Careful what you use to power your nixies...

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

What is the typical signature of a counterfeit capacitor ? I'm mostly 
concerned about the ~450V electrolytics that are commonly used for 
anode-supply filtering. 

In my designs, I always have a series resistor and fast-blow fuse 
(typically 3/8 amp; smaller ones get *really* expensive...) which are sized 
to burn-out if significantly higher current is drawn, for example an 
electrolytic that is breaking-down, etc.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie tube clock ghosting issues

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

I looked at your driver schematics, and checked the transistor datasheet. 
The only possible culprit I see from a leakage perspective is the 
anode-driver; the NPN device has a 0.1uA Icbo (spec-max), and it could 
cause the PNP device to conduct several uA of current for an anode which is 
'off'. The amount of current is hard to predict because its the product of 
NPN leakage, and the PNP's beta; both of these can vary significantly.

Cathode-driver looks solid; glad to see you used a high-voltage device.

Other than that, if you have a scope, I suggest you check the cs1-cs6, and 
k.0 thru k.9 signals very carefully. Your eyes will definitely see a faint 
glow on a cathode even if it's only energized for a few microseconds.

Can you describe the ghosting you see ? For example, If you illuminate a 
single '0', and all other digits are dark, do you see a faint '0' on the 
dark digits ?
Are the ghosts about the same brightness, or do they taper-off ? 
If you display all digits with the same numeral, are there any ghosts ?
If you display 123456, what sort of ghosting is seen at the 2 vs 3, etc ?
Those are important clues.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie tube clock ghosting issues

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Leakage current ? I've seen past designs that use drivers with a 
breakdown-voltage-rating lower than the high-voltage supply. I always use 
drivers rated at or above the anode supply voltage, even though there are 
reasonable arguments for relying on the voltage-drop of the tube to reduce 
the voltage seen by the driver.


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[neonixie-l] Re: About this type edge lit display.

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

The closest thing I've seen was a digital voltmeter I had years ago and 
converted it into a clock. The display was a single unit of 5 digits, and 
there were individual type 527 (I think that's the number; very commonly 
used for illuminated switches from the 1960's thru 1980's). Those bulbs 
were rated for 100,000 hours of usage at 5V.

If I were you, I would go ahead and build the clock (just guessing here, 
but isn't that what most of us do with these vintage displays ?) for 6 
digits in case you are lucky enough to find another unit, and use it as an 
hours:minutes display for now.

BTW, I threw the clock away about 10 years ago because the stepper-relays 
were intermittent despite multiple attempts to clean them

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[neonixie-l] 7971 nixies sighted on Ebay

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

I dont see these listed very often; today there are 4 different lots 
posted. Happy bidding.
Personally I'm not a big fan of segment displays because they remind me too 
much of LEDs.
Now, if they were 7094's at this price I would be drooling...

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Re: [neonixie-l] Favourite chips...

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

For NMOS, I prefer Fairchild FQS4901 surface-mount because they are dual 
400V units in a reasonable-sized package (small enough to save space, but 
not so small that they are difficult to hand-solder). Vgs(on) is about 4 
volts, so I would NOT use these with logic running at 3.3V or even 3.7V. I 
actually had the driver for this device running at 12V

For NPN, I use PMBTA42DS device from NXP. They are also dual units and are 
rated at 300Vceo .

If you are going to drive a dekatron, you do NOT need a high-voltage device 
as long as all of the cathodes have series resistors. It only takes about 
20-30 volts difference between cathodes to "rotate" the dekatron.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Favourite chips...

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Firstly, I only do direct-drive.

I dont use driver chips. Instead, I use either NPN or NMOS discrete 
devices, because I can ensure constant-current thru the cathode.
Using a dropping-resistor will result in some current-variation due to the 
tube's characteristics, or supply voltage variation.

For larger tubes, you may want to tweak the cathode-current. For example, a 
'1' numeral will require less current than an '8'. This is possible with 
per-cathode drivers. Basically, the current-limiting resistor is placed 
between source and ground for an NMOS driver, or emitter and ground for an 
NPN driver. The resistor provides current-feedback.

NPN Driver. I use this on my neon watch because the supply voltage of 3.7V 
is too low for high-voltage NMOS devices. To calculate the emitter resistor 
value, R=(Vsupply-0.7)/current.  If current is in mA, R is in k-ohms. If 
you want 335uA for a 3.7V supply, then use 8.9K (the recommended current 
for an SP-151 display). Be aware that most of the heat will be dissipated 
by the NPN device, not the resistor.

NMOS driver. The topology is similar, but the gate-source threshold voltage 
has more variation than Vbe for an NPN transistor. I use 12V for my 
big-clock, and Vgs is around 3.4V. The driver logic runs at 12V, so 
variations in Vgs have relatively small effect on the cathode current.

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[neonixie-l] Cheap isolation transformer

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Has anyone encountered problems using a transformer with dual primary 
windings as an isolation transformer ? I'm only powering 1 primary, and 
using the other primary "as a secondary winding" to provide isolated 
120VAC. I've chosen a larger unit so that I wont exceed (or even get close 
to) the VA rating.

I know I wont get the same degree of isolation as the real thing, but 
that's not important for me.

My actual project requires 3 isolated windings in 1 unit, so a commonly 
available dual-primary/dual-secondary transformer looks like a perfect fit.

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[neonixie-l] Re: News Flash - Do you collect tubes or semiconductors?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

No worriesyour tubes are 100% safe.
Even though some materials used in a vacuum tube might be classified as 
semiconductors, they dont operate in that manner.

Tubes conduct electrons through a vacuum or gas; solid-state devices (aka 
semiconductors) conduct thru, guess what, solids.

But, I do wonder how the density of atoms in a typical vacuum tube compares 
to the density of impurities in a doped semiconductor.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Neon size limitations?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

But, unlike a picture tube, you could put internal support structures 
within the "tube" which would make it unnecessary to have really thick 
glass in specific areas.
Then it becomes a matter of how you would glass-cast it and insert the 
cathodes. A 7-segment giant nixie would be relatively "easy" to do; trying 
to preserve
the individually-shaped numerals (which in my opinion is what makes nixies 
so beautiful in the first place) will take some careful planning.

BTW, if you have ever broken a picture tube, it's rather fascinating how 
thin the glass is towards the neck versus the outer ridge at the front. 
Which is why we always threw tubes on the ridge to maximize the 
BOOM21FJP22's were my favorite. Breaking the neck is flat-out boring..

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixie tube sockets - 3D printer!

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

For A-101's I use 0.093" crimp-style connector socket pins (they cost about 
$0.10 US from digikey, part #A14097-ND). After soldering wire to the 
crimp-pin, I cover with heat-shrink tubing. It's very solid. Also works for 
IN-1's, though I advise using a better tube.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Fake gigantic nixies

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

>
>
> I haven’t made my fake gigantic nixies yet, but yes, I was intending to 
> make the neon tubes myself.
>
>
Similar to a traditional neon sign, or were you going to try something 
different ?
I dont have the heart to call those gigantic nixies at Evoluon 
"fake"...they look incredible, even down to the details of having pins.

Years ago I was going to try making my own neon signage, but after 
researching the cost of the equipment and the time
I would need to invest I decided against it. 

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Re: [neonixie-l] Fake gigantic nixies

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

>
> Wouldn't lN-9's or 13's be ideal for that? Should make it relatively easy 
> l'd think?
>

My experience with IN-9's was rather unpleasantI could not get them to 
illuminate fully and repeatably. That's the main reason why I switched to a 
string of NE-2 bulbs for my big clock, and also because I could get more 
luminous output per-watt with NE-2's.

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[neonixie-l] Fake gigantic nixies

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Has anyone used discrete bulbs, illuminated tubing, etc to create large 
digits that look like a large nixie tube ?
Yes, I know it's a form of blasphemy, but I'm highly doubtful anyone could 
make a true nixie tube with 10- or 15-inch
symbols.

For my next project I'm thinking of using a bunch of NE-2 bulbs arranged to 
form digits. Definitely *NOT* 7-segment
or 14/16-segment, 5x7 matrix, LED/LCD screen, CRT, etc. It really needs to 
be neon.

I did consider using neon dot-matrix some displays, such as those found on 
pinball machines, but they aren't quite big enough.





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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: White "power"in contacts

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

While it's true that each tube has only been operating about 7000 hours, 
the fact that 15 out of 15 are still running is statistically important. 
Failure-rates are computed based on testing of multiple devices.

Let's suppose 1 of my 15 tubes failed after 5000 hours. The failure-rate 
would not be 1 failure per 5000 hours; it would be 9.7 failures per million 
hours based on this calculation:
1/(5000+14*7000).

Thankfully, all of the tubes are still running. But I still dont have any 
data telling me how long they are expected to last. The information in my 
Burroughs datasheet suggests a failure rate of about 4 per ten-million 
hours for 5031 tubes; I wish I had that info for 5092's and 6091's..

Interestingly, I have a few 5031's in my collection and some of them have 
partially-illuminated cathodes. They have not responded to attempts to 
'clean' them with higher current.
None of my 5092s or 6091s show any sign of wearout. So, it's a mystery to 
me how long they will last


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[neonixie-l] Re: White "power"in contacts

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Be aware the tube itself is sealed, so even if they were submerged in water 
they should be fine. Whatever the contaminant is, I can't see any obvious 
signs of corrosion on the pins.

I see these are IN-1 tubes. *Be warned: They are very unreliable*; see my 
posting about this from last year for more details. After a few hundred 
hours of continuous operation I was getting cathodes shorting to eachother 
inside the tube. It was so bad that my big clock with 15 tubes had a 
failure every few days.

After replacing the IN-1 (NH-1) tubes with Burroughs 6091's, I have not had 
a single failure. This particular clock has been running for over 9 months 
now, which means I have accumulated about 100,000 hours of tube-time. 


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[neonixie-l] Re: Erratic Harrison clock

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

If you suspect line-noise, plug a noisy device into the socket next to the 
suspect clock and turn it on/off rapidly for a few minutes to see if the 
clock gains time. If your clock is susceptible to line-noise, it will gain 
time. I found that my Weller WTCPN soldering station is REALLY noisy; far 
more noise than my circular saw or garage vac.

My first-generation nixie-tube clocks use the 60Hz line signal for keeping 
time. I have 2 stages of low-pass filtering. The first-stage is for 
high-frequency/high-energy noise on the AC line, right where the AC line 
comes onto the PC board. The second-stage is a simple RC filter for the 
60Hz reference signal to the CMOS counters with a cutoff frequency around 
300Hz. Incidentally, my clock uses 4000-series CMOS gates, running at 
10VDC. It has no transformer, and the "ground" of the clock is tied 
directly to the AC line. Yes, it's perfectly safe to run a CMOS gate tied 
directly to the AC line; no worries of surges, ESD, noise, etc because the 
other side of the AC line is well-protected and filtered.

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[neonixie-l] Re: CRT clock question

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Sometimes it's more bother to reverse-engineer than to start-over.

Have you been able to get a spot on the screen yet ? You want to make sure 
the intensity is very low, and unfocused. Once you've got that you might 
try experimenting with the deflection yoke the see how much drive-current 
is needed. If you are lucky enough to have 2 audio generators, try driving 
the horizontal & vertical separately to produce lissajous patterns. We used 
to do that with TV sets years ago

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[neonixie-l] Re: How often do you rotate the tubes in your nixie clock ?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

I'm concerned about my cathodes sputtering away after several years. My big 
clock has tubes with a single-digit illuminated 24/7, which is the 
worst-case scenario. The Burroughs datasheet documents testing done circa 
1960, and they observed basically no failures on several batches of tubes 
after 30,000 hours (almost 4 years). By rotating the tubes, I would expect 
I could maximize their lifetime by evening-out the wear on the cathodes, 
assuming that sputtering is the death-mechanism. If I were to wail until a 
tube failed, presumably from sputtering, there is a higher risk that the 
unused cathodes are poisoned (from their lack of usage).

So I see it as a tradeoff between (a) mechanical damage from resocketing, 
(b) cathode wearout. I just dont know how to optimize between these 2.

6091 nixies are getting hard to find, not to mention pricey. My clock has 
15 of them, and I dont want to dip into the few spares I have.

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[neonixie-l] How often do you rotate the tubes in your nixie clock ?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

I've been rotating the Burroughs 5092 tubes in my clocks yearly to even-out 
the wear (sounds like car tires.), but I'm inclined to do it less often 
after reading about the recent IN-18 death that could have been caused by 
stressing the pins.

Has anyone done less-frequent rotations ?

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[neonixie-l] Re: Dekatron art

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

On Sunday, January 19, 2014 8:46:37 AM UTC-8, Joseph Bento wrote:
>
> >   Might it be as easy as reversing the grids?  I've never tried.
>

Correct. A dekatron actually has 30 cathodes. 10 of them are separately 
pinned-out, so that the counting function is available externally.
10 cathodes are connected to a single pin, call it group1
The remaining 10 cathodes are connected to group 2.
The cathodes are arranged radially, something like this:
Cathode 0
Group 1
Group 2
Cathode 1
Group 1
Group 2
Cathode 2.

All cathodes connect to ground via a resistor. The dot will "follow" the 
path of least resistance. To make it move, group1 is pulled low, and then 
group 2 is pulled low. Then group1 is released. Finally, group 2 is 
released and the dot moves to the next cathode. To reverse the direction, 
pull group 2 low, then pull group1 low, then release group 2, then release 
group 1

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: What to do with a 0B3 regulator tube ?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

If you want green, I suggest green glass and Xenon gas (numerous spectral 
lines in the green region), and perhaps a bit of Helium. I would avoid Neon 
because it's mostly yellow/orange/red spectra.


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[neonixie-l] What to do with a 0B3 regulator tube ?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

I acquired a few of these for free (not a bad price), and their faint 
purplish glow doesn't produce much of a "wow" factor to show-off. I was 
hoping that reverse-polarity would produce more glow; no such luck. Most of 
the interesting glowing is hidden inside the  metallic area of the tube. 
Even with higher current, the glow was barely affected. It's so dim that it 
wouldn't even make a decent night-light.

Any ideas out there ?

Since these aren't rare tubes (yet...), I'm tempted to repeat an experiment 
I did in high school with a 0A2 regulator tube: I cranked so much current 
thru it that the plate glowed red-hot, the glass softened and due to the 
vacuum, and it shrank around the metal. Watching the poor tube shrivel-up 
and die made me laugh so hard I cried.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Gottlieb VFDs

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

I would make another clock, with all three units.
The first unit would have the day, and month.
The second unit would have the numerical date and tens-hours
The third unit would have minutes & seconds.

The segment layout should allow you to form most alpha characters, except 
Q, X, V, Z
But you dont need those for day, month.

I would also block-over the unused digits (I've painted the backside of 
glass with paint)

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[neonixie-l] Re: [TCA] Antique Lamp...Neons...Tubes Tubes for the christmas tree.

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Methylene Chloride is pretty nasty stuff; it's used as a paint stripper and 
is a likely carcinogen. I got some fumes in my eyes a few months ago while 
I was cleaning-up graffiti, and it was very painful.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Nixie tubes spotted :D

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

>
> Old-school flip-flop. It has a minimal transistor-count because back in 
> those days these were rather expensive and nobody cared about 
> power-consumption. A CMOS flop consumes zero static power but requires at 
> least 8 transistors to accomplish set-reset, whereas this bipolar dinosaur 
> uses at least 250mW static power if I did my calculations correctly. The 
> diodes & caps make the circuit edge-sensitive, not to mention interesting, 
> and a mental simulation tells me it's a falling-edge triggered. I havn't 
> figured-out why the -24V biasing is needed; perhaps those old transistors 
> were a tad too leaky ???


I'm sticking with FPGA's. 

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-37 ???

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

I've seen similar, with digits 0-9. I'm not sure why this unit is 1-6 
because you could not even use it for a clock;
must have been a special application.

I've always wondered if anyone manufactured a dekatron (or in this case, a 
"hexatron" ) in this manner.
I doubt these were very popular because the digits are much smaller than a 
conventional nixie with the same footprint,
and they move around. Even nixies are a bit annoying as the numerals move 
forward and backward.

This just inspired me for another clock project (my wife is gonna kill 
me): I will etch some metal disks and backlight them with NE-2's;
I think it would be sinful to use an LED..

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[neonixie-l] Re: Mouser Electronics for electronic parts

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

I've used Digikey, Mouser, and Jameco many times for the past 30 years. All 
of them are excellent suppliers.

The reasons I use Digikey the most are:
1. They have an enormous inventory, and on rare instances they dont have 
the exact part in-stock, they have identical devices from other suppliers 
in-stock
2. The bill-of-materials (BOM) manager is great for managing your projects, 
especially when you decide to make additional copy of a project
3. Very fast shipping with full-tracking. If my order is placed Wednesday, 
I have my parts on Friday so I can work on my project that weekend
4. Pricing is competitive. If I hunt around I can save a small amount of 
money with another supplier, but it's extra effort, shipping cost, and time.
Remember, time is money, too.
5. Excellent customer service. I've ordered thousands of parts from them, 
and only had a few missing items. They ship the replacement right away.


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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Thoughts on nixie lifespan and halogens...

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

If iron was used, I wonder if a small magnet would collect sputtered 
material ? The magnet could even be external to the tube if it was strong 
enough, like those buckyballs that kids were swallowing. Then again, it 
might draw sputtered material towards a certain area and cause shorts.

I know for a fact that IN-1's develop internal shorts between cathodes when 
they run with the same digit continuously illuminated. Not only do you get 
2 cathodes glowing simultaneously, the short can be measured with an 
ohmmeter. Zapping the shorts slowly causes incandescense, until they 
burn-thru. At that point the tube worked again, until it developed another 
short. I was tempted to break-open a failed tube, then decided against it 
because the mechanical shock would probably break the short and I'd never 
find it.

I assumed the shorts I experienced were tin whiskers. But maybe it was 
sputtering. I gave up worrying about it because I switched the IN-1's to 
6091's and the clock has been running perfectly for months now; it used to 
fail within a few days.

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV Power Supply Reverse Engineer

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

The battery-powered design for my wristwatch uses a 3.7v Li-ion battery 
(1000mA-hr) to produce 180VDC at 7ma. I use a 50:1 transformer (Coilcraft 
LPR6235), and it will run somewhere around 150kHz. It's controlled by the 
onboard FPGA, and I have voltage-feedback. The power supply will actually 
go higher than just the transformer turns-ratio due to inductive effects. 
The transformer is rated for 100V, so it's going to be interesting to see 
if it breaks-down at 180V.

If your area isn't as constrained (wristwatches are brutal), there are 
a lot of other transformers available, such as those used in CFLs or laptop 
backlights. Coilcraft has a nice selection and they sell direct to you even 
if you only buy single units.

The circuit itself is simple: Transformer primary is connected to the 3.7V 
battery, and to a NMOS transistor. I used a low-leakage DMG3420U. The fpga 
turns the NMOS on for 2usec, then off. You have to be careful about how 
long the transformer is energized (otherwise you get really unsafe 
current), and keep the frequency low enough to minimize losses. I expect I 
will need to do a lot of tweaking once I get my PCB, but the tweaks are 
easy because it's an FPGA. The secondary winding goes to a bridge rectifier 
and small filter cap (0.1uf).

I use direct-drive, not multiplex.The 3-1/2 digit 7-segment display is 
rather large, so there is enough room on the PCB for each segment to have a 
small NPN transistor and emitter resistor, for current-control. The FPGA 
drives the NPN at 3.3V; with a Vbe drop of 0.7V, the emitter resistor is 
calculated from the voltage (3.3-0.7 =2.6v) and the segment current (335uA 
in my case). I use dual NPNs (PMBTA42DS) to save PCB area. Everything 
(except the neon display) is surface-mount.

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[neonixie-l] Re: HV Power Supply Reverse Engineer

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Low-cost 12VDC to 120VAC inverter; no idea what frequency it produces. You 
would need an oscilloscope to get a true idea what this inverter really 
does.

I prefer to purchase new parts that have datasheets; it might cost me a bit 
of money but having all the details saves you a lot of time. Remember, time 
is money, too.

All of my present nixie supplies are driven from the mains and they are 
NON-isolated. Just use an isolation transformer during debug & testing. I 
also recommend you use a voltage higher than 170V for nixies. Yes, they 
will fire at 170V, but as they age, their firing voltage will increase and 
you may not get reliable ignition. Another reason for using a higher 
voltage is that you will have less variation in the nixie current. Cathode 
current varies with supply-voltage, tube-condition, and even by digit. 
Using a higher voltage and a higher series resistor will reduce the 
variation in cathode current. If your supply is 170V, and the line-voltage 
drops by 6%, you will have a 33% reduction in tube current (brightness). If 
you run at 340VDC, a 6% drop in line voltage produces only a 7% drop in 
tube current.

My latest designs use current-feedback on the cathodes, so it's literally 
constant-current.

Since I'm in the US, our mains are 120V rms. Using a rectifier and 
capacitor gets you 170VDC. I use a doubler to get +340VDC, which is 
perfect. Tubes typically use 2mA, and have about 140V across them when lit, 
so a good starting value for 340VDC is 100K.   R = (Vsupply-Vtube)/Itube. 
Use the recommended current from the datasheet, and measure the tube's 
actual voltage-drop for various digits, and take the average. Better yet, 
do this for all of your tubes.

Nixies are damaged by excess current; higher voltage does not harm the 
nixie as long as you limit the current to a proper value. Using higher 
voltage does waste more energy, though.

Someday I will make a constant-current driver that wastes no energy, but 
I'm too busy with the nixie wristwatch right now (pcb goes out for fab as 
soon as I finish my simulations)

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[neonixie-l] Re: Another progress in making nixies

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Please keep us informed about how long your nixies are powered-on. It will 
be very interesting to see
pictures as you run the tube for several weeks (hopefully years).

Very nice work! Your tubes look like they came from a production-line 
rather than a garage experiment.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Thoughts on nixie lifespan and halogens...

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

>From what I read about the Halogen cycle,  high-temperature is a key part 
of the cycle where tungsten dissociates from the halogen, in this case on 
the filament. Apparently the halogen present in the bulb reacts with the 
tungsten that essentially condenses on the inner surface of the bulb, 
thereby keeping the bulb's inner surface clean.

I think for nixies, the first step is to identify a metal that is resistant 
to sputtering. A few months ago when I was thinking about making my own 
tubes, I did a small amount of web searching and was not able to find any 
metals with notable resistance to sputtering. I found lots of information 
about improving sputtering efficiencies; not really what I wanted.

Before I gave-up, I was first thinking of using nichrome for my cathodes, 
because I believe it would oxidize much less than other readily-available 
metals during the high-temperatures encountered with glasswork. I was 
concerned about it's reflectivity; if you look carefully at 5092 or 6091 
tubes (yes, I'm a Burroughs junkie...) you will see some back-reflection 
from un-energized numerals. I wanted to make really big tubes, and if they 
are made with overly-reflective metals, the appearance will suffer. And of 
course I need to chemically etch the cathodes; I dont think nichrome is as 
easily dissolved as, say, copper, so that puts restrictions on the etchant 
and the masking material used. 

Then I was concerned about how well glass would form a durable seal around 
nichrome, and also the differing thermal-expansion coefficients. Kovar is a 
better material from what I've read. Ugghh...now I have to spot-weld my 
electrodes to the pins. Even if I got all that figured-out, I still need to 
remove the impurities. With neon-sign tubes, this done during bombarding; I 
can only imagine what that would do to a nixie tube.

So, that's where I buried the project. If I get blessed with eternal life 
and wealth, I'll take another stab at it.

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[neonixie-l] Re: propeller watch?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Well, it does provide inspiration for neon-clocks. Similar to my big-clock, 
pictured below. It's all neon (hands are NE-2 bulbs, numerals are B-6091 
nixies, and the center is an A101 dekatron). And yes it did take awhile to 
solder over 300 neon bulbs. Took several months to layout the 14" x 14" 
PCB, but it was worth the effort.



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[neonixie-l] Re: Photos of Burroughs counter modules?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

The Burroughs nixie catalog, which can be found online, has a few pictures 
of the DC-112, DC-114, and DC-115 modules. They are dekatron-based. I 
wouldn't worry about trying to match their PCB layout; your bigger 
challenge will be tweaking the design to work with readily-available 
dekatrons such as the A101. The schematics are also in the datasheet

The Burroughs catalog shows their Beam-X devices (lots of luck finding 
those) operating at 250V; I had to run my A101 at 450V to get solid 
performance. I'm sure there are other tweaks necessary.

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[neonixie-l] Re: ZM1251

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

If there were 4 of them, it could make a nice wristwatch. But it would be a 
challenge, and I'm not sure if the leads would prevent you from abutting 
the units.
Glad I found some 3-1/2 digit displays for my wristwatch project; hope to 
be done with the board layout in a few weeks.

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[neonixie-l] Re: CD27 clock

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

And I thought I was crazy because I paid $300 for a bunch of 6091 tubes a 
few months ago..

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[neonixie-l] Re: My latest clock

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Are those 7971 tubes ? Sure wish I had a few of them.OK, I confess, I 
wish I had tons of them.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Mysterious green spot randomly appears in one of my nixie tubes

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

My clock is direct-drive, using 400V NMOS (IRF740) separate drivers on each 
cathode. Yeah, that's 45 drivers for 6-digits heh-heh.did someone say 
"overkill" 
DC supply is 350V (from AC-line doubler) to all anodes. I like the higher 
voltage so that as the ionization voltage increases with age, they will 
still illuminate reliably. It also reduces cathode-current variations due 
to tube characteristics, line-voltage, etc at the expense of higher energy 
usage.

But I will check the leakage current of the dark cathodes. Datasheet says 
less than 1ua at 25C (<50uA at 125C but I'm nowhere near that 
temperature).
When my cathodes are off, they essentially float (off-impedance of NMOS). I 
thought about tying them thru a big resistor to the HV supply, but I 
reasoned that the leakage current was negligibly low so there should not be 
any glow.

With regard to the green glow tube, it's definitely the tube, and not the 
driver, because when I rotate the tubes for uniform usage, it's the same 
tube with the green glow even though it's being driven from a different 
driver than previously.

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[neonixie-l] Mysterious green spot randomly appears in one of my nixie tubes

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Every once in awhile, a small green glow occurs in the rear area of one of 
my 5092 tubes. The glow stops when the digit is turned-off, and does not 
reappear again if the tube is re-energized even after multiple tries. Then, 
perhaps days or weeks later, it reappears when the tube is energized.

Unfortunately I can't easily check the current to see if it's significantly 
different when the green discharge occurs. The digit glows fully in it's 
normal color, so there's no obvious harm.

I see that neon has multiple spectral lines, including green, so perhaps 
this is a discharge between internal nodes of the tube, and for some 
strange reason it's favoring a different spectral line ???
Green is a shorter wavelength than the dominant orange, so I'm inclined to 
think there is a higher field strength present in that region, thereby 
causing excitation to a higher state hence the different color, but the 
fallacy in that idea is that the green glow is a fairly rare event. I would 
expect  that if the internals in that region were closer together, for 
whatever reason, that the green glow would always occur; it doesn't.
It's been doing this randomly for more than a year now.

It's entirely different than the blue dots I've seen on tubes that have 
been sitting on the shelf for years, because those go away after a few 
minutes or hours of usage.
I suspect that's from mercury that has collected locally, and is 
subsequently distributed after the tube is energized.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Something for the tube/nixie making people?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

I've always been curious what level of glassblowing skills and cost/quality 
of vacuum equipment one would need to make their own tubes.

I had given some thought to attempt to make my own nixie tubes and other 
ionized gas devices, then concluded it would take me several years and 
several thousand US $ to make anything that would have a decent lifetime. 

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[neonixie-l] Re: A7001

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

With any nixie tube, you can figure out the pinout yourself with a 
high-voltage supply (200 volts or more), and a series resistor to limit the 
current. It wont hurt the tube if you apply voltage to the "wrong" pins as 
long as you limit the current. I've done this many times when it would take 
me longer to go in the house to pull up the datasheet than probe it with 
this method.

Make sure the resistor is big enough to limit the current to about 1 mA. 
Tubes will have a voltage drop around 130V, so a 200V supply with a 70K 
series resistor will keep you safe. Use a higher resistor for higher supply 
voltages. Connect the resistor to the + lead on the supply. You will 
experiment with the - lead from the power supply and the other end of the 
resistor. Best to use clip-leads.

Pick any 2 pins. You should see something glow. If not, then it's possible 
you found an internal pin that's not normally used. Any nixie tube with 
more than 11 pins will have these.

If you see a numeral glowing, then the negative lead has found that 
particular digit. Keep probing the other digits with the negative lead and 
make a note of the pinout.
If you were lucky and found all 10 digits, the resistor (which goes to the 
+ supply) is on the anode lead.
More likely, you will find a pin that glows in a strange shape with the 
negative lead. That's the anode. Move the resistor to this pin and then 
find the rest of the numeral cathodes.

Once you have the pins identified, you need to determine the cathode 
current. Unless the numerals are larger than 20mm or 0.8 inches  (lucky you 
if you found tubes that big !!!), the current will be less than 3mA. I'd 
use as small a current necessary to get a nice even glow, and then add 
about 10-20% to allow for aging.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Dude, did someone slip an extra zero in your listing?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Definitely overpriced considering a bold Ebayer got 4 ultra-rare XM1000 
tubes (think nixie + CRT) for about the same amount ($1595 US) a few weeks 
ago. It was amazing to watch the bidding frenzy during the last few seconds.

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<>

[neonixie-l] Re: Anyone else having problems with unreliable IN-1 tubes ?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

UPDATE: I was able to acquire a sizable number of B-6091 long-life tubes, 
and after several weeks of continuous usage there have been zero problems. 
An added plus is these tubes fit the same readily-available sockets as the 
more-common B-5092, and they are substantially larger. Even larger than the 
IN-1. Too bad the 6091's aren't as plentiful as IN-1's

I was surprised that these new old-stock 6091's, which were manufactured in 
1963 and had been sitting idle for the last 50 years, fired-up so nicely. 
Out of 25 tubes, only 2 or 3 had to be run-in for a few hours at nominal 
current to get the same coloring as the other tubes.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Relay-controlled Nixie Clock

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

A word of caution about 10-position stepper relays, etc: These devices are 
quite old, probably 40+ years, and the contacts will have oxidation and 
other contamination that makes them intermittent. Several years ago I threw 
out my stepper-relay clock because the contacts were too much hassle to 
keep cleaning, and a few of them were nearly worn-out. The units I had were 
not sealed; maybe there are  sealed devices in existence, so if you could 
find some, that might be a game-changer.

Incidentally, the stepper relay unit I had was a pre-nixie era digital 
voltmeter that used individual incandescent bulbs that side-illuminated 
plastic numerals.  I morphed it into an interesting clock, but it was too 
unreliable, bulky, and quite frankly, rather ugly. Resting In Pieces...


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[neonixie-l] Re: Z564S dekatrons

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Is there anything special or unique about the Z564S versus other dekatrons ?

I have an A101 in my big clock, and it's bidirectional and large enough to 
see across the room (it's going clockwise for the first 12 hours of the 
day, then counterclockwise during the second half. Speed is 1 rev/second)

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[neonixie-l] Burroughs long-life tubes (5092, 6091): Will they last forever ?

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Going thru my growing collection of tubes, I have not come across any of 
the long-lifer's that are showing signs of failure or aging. The original 
Burroughs datasheet extrapolated lifetimes of up to 500,000 hours, which 
really makes me wonder how long these things will last. I've probably got 
60-70 of these guys, most of them used with no idea of their history (other 
than their date-codes from 1963-1967), and they glow perfectly. Has anyone 
experienced one of these actually failing after longtime usage ?

I have a few 5031 tubes (also from Burroughs, apparently an earlier version 
of their long-life tubes) showing signs of cathode poisoning (dark areas, 
glowing interconnects), and I've had some amount of success 'cleansing' 
them (even 'dead ones with high current they get pretty warm). But 
I suspect from the lack of purplish/pinkish hue the 5031's have little or 
no mercury. If someone has a detailed explanation why mercury improves 
lifetime, please post.

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[neonixie-l] Re: sputtery Neon tribute

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Glad to see you found a use for these tubes..

I bought some IN-9's awhile back and was disappointed at how uncontrollable 
they were. Supposedly the length of the illuminated section is proportional 
to the current; what I found was that you can get more illumination with 
more current, but it varied from tube-to-tube, and also varied for the same 
tube after it warmed-up. Most disturbing was that they did not illuminate 
in the same direction; I was experimenting with a tube and it would 
illuminate from left-to-right as I increased the current, but after a few 
cycles it would switch direction and illuminate from right-to-left. I had 
to pump a lot of current to get the whole length illuminated; much more 
than a string of NE-2 bulbs, which are brighter.

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[neonixie-l] VFD lifetime

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

The recent IV-11 posts have aroused my curiosity, so does anyone have 
firsthand experience with long-lifetime VFD displays ?
I'd want to keep mine on all the time. Obviously the filament is a concern, 
and I'd be tempted to crank down the current as much
as possible before the segments are no longer uniformly illuminated.

I admit I'm spoiled by the long-life Burroughs nixies; is there any hope 
that a VFD would last anywhere near as long ?


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[neonixie-l] Using 60Hz line-frequency (US) for your nixie clock

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

If any of you are designing your own nixie clock, and cant decide if you 
should use an internal crystal oscillator or the AC line, you might be 
surprised at the long-term accuracy of your electricity provider.
My homebrew 6-tube nixie clock uses the 60Hz line-frequency for counting, 
and it's basically maintained the same time my cellphone receives over the 
network. Yes, there are day-to-day variations of + or - a few seconds, but 
they cancel-out. A simple RC low-pass filter (mine is about 300Hz 
corner-frequency) will prevent line-glitches from cumulatively speeding-up 
your clock.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Nixies for a friend.

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

I highly recommend Burroughs 5092 tubes because they are very durable and 
still available fairly often on Ebay (hurry, there's a buy-it-now for 5 of 
them right now. ).
You can also get new sockets on Ebay for a good price as well (my last 
purchase of 15 sockets just cleared customs in SFO).


On Saturday, July 6, 2013 10:04:53 AM UTC-7, Chuck wrote:
>
> Greetings everyone! 
>
> I am currently offering to help a friend of mine, who 
> is new to nixie tubes. 
>
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: ZM1251

[gregeb...@hotmail.com]

Looks like a 5x7 matrix device. I have a much larger one used in pinball 
displays (32 x 128) in my future-projects box.

On Tuesday, July 9, 2013 5:10:22 PM UTC-7, kay486 wrote:
>
> Hello, does anybody seen this ZM1251 thing? Is it really nixie tube? I 
> would love to see any info.
>
> http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_zm1251.html
>

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