Re: [newbie] Parental Control
Hmm. just adding my two cents: I've been watching porn since I was like... uhhm... 6 or so. Ok, at that age I didn't understand what it was all about, except that married people did those kind of things, but anyway... It hasn't made me a less responsible, or more perverted human being. As a matter of fact, I kind of dislike porn nowadays, since I regard most of it as cheap filth. Some porn goes beyond the average "get two ugly people in bed and film the action as explicitly as possible" style that governs the market, but that kind of "quality porn" is scarce. But anyway, porn right now can't really attract my attention anymore, and I usually even change the channel when yet another stupid cheap erotic movie is playing. Not to say I don't enjoy sex, but just not all the cheap rubbish they show on TV, or what's to be found on all major XXX-sites. Of course I can only speak for myself, but I regard myself as the living proof that watching porn doesn't make you a pervert. So why bother about your kiddies becoming perverts just 'coz they watch porn on the web? Ok, at first they'll be very interrested, they'll download tons of pics and movies, even print some out, share with their friends, and probably play with themselves while watching it. So what? It's just a stage they have to pass trough, and we all know that kids in their puberty find their way to porn one way or another anyway, or do you think my parents realized how much of that shit I have looked at in my life? But ask yourselves this question: what do you prefer? A 13-year old kid that watches tons of porn, and experiments with himself while watching it, only to realise when he matures that it's actually cheap rubbish, and then when he's passed that stage can enjoy a normal healthy sex-life with his partner of choice, or do you prefer creating a human being that will engage in a relationship so insecure about intimity because he's always regarded it as something of a taboo, and even something evil? Probably even an individual who's been so frustrated all of his life because he always heard stuff about it, but never really knew what it was all about. This individual will never enjoy sex in his whole life. Oh yes, he'll _have_ sex, but he won't _enjoy_ it, odds are he won't be able to keep a decent relationship for long either, since he'll be one hell of a screwed up person (ok, I'm going into extremes here, but you get my point). I don't believe in forcing porn upon young kids just to have them realise the facts of life, but I also don't believe in this rigid censorship which has ruined more lives troughout the years than drugs has. I believe that when a 6-year old kid comes asking you what words like "vagina" and "condom" mean, you should have an open conversation in which the kid doesn't get the impression it's something of a taboo, or evil/perverted. Of course, if I had a 6-year old daughter and she came up to me asking "Daddy, what does 'sodomize' mean?", I would be baffled at first too, and I don't really know if I would have an answer for her right away, but then again, it's these moments that make parentship such a fun job, I suppose. ;-) Note, I don't have any kids, nor am I married myself. So these opinions are not the ones of a parent, but the ones of the child of parents who always have had an open policy about sex and sex-related questions. I turned out quite OK, and so will many other kids if you give them a chance to prove they're actually more mature than you'd think. Besides, censorship doesn't work, there's always classmates who bring porn-mags into school etc... I'd prefer if my future kids would learn about sex from me and my future wife, than from the other kids in school. On May 7 Marc wrote: finally some one says some thing about hate pages other than porn pages. i mean yes it is bad for a kid to see porn at a young age but what about seeing a hate filled sign? i guess morally any more porn is worse than hate. sorry for going off the topic but props to Del -- Rial Juanhttp://nighty.ulyssis.org e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Belgiumtel:(++32) 89/856533 ulyssis system admininstrator http://www.ulyssis.org The little critters in nature; they don't know they're ugly. That's very funny... A fly marying a bumble-bee... Sign the petition at http://www.libranet.com/petition.html Help bring us more Linux Drivers
Re: [newbie] Parental Control
"L. H. LOO" wrote: At 08-05-2000 07:42 AM, you wrote: What if he got himself a spare set of power cords ? It is not that costly. Just my 0.002 cents' concern. How, you may think, did I accomplish this? Well, when I went to work, so did the power cords. While at home, the computer was usable by me only. Or - more likely - went to some 'friends' (that so called 'bad company') to 'studie' natures expressions? I don't know if it is my (Scandinavian) liberal point of vue that makes the difference, but some times it makes me pi to watch the (for me to see) typical American offence over a couple (or more) undressed people (mostly females) as long as it is OK to broadcast tons of movies, where people (lots of them) gets brutally slaugtered. Sincerely Mogens Jæger
Re: [newbie] Parental Control
At 08-05-2000 07:42 AM, you wrote: What if he got himself a spare set of power cords ? It is not that costly. Just my 0.002 cents' concern. How, you may think, did I accomplish this? Well, when I went to work, so did the power cords. While at home, the computer was usable by me only.
Fw: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control
I would like to have your system STOP sending these messages out to me and the other people on the mail group we are subscribed to, it is very annoying and unnecessary. If this is going into a business enviornment then we apologize for this but we are not responsible and would like to have these messages STOPPED. Thank You, don I thought I knew that I knew what I thought But now I know that what I thought I knew Isn't what I know I think I thought I knew. - Forwarded message -- From: "'NS005 ChineseWall Demon'" 'NS005_ChineseWall_Demon'@txu.com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:33:44 -0500 Subject: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MIMEsweeper ChineseWall Server: CN=NS005/OU=DSRV/O=Texas Utilities - --- Mail-Info From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] @ TU To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 05/09/2000 01:49:07 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Parental Control - --- 'ChineseWall Job' reports: TXU automatically screens all e-mail for inappropriate subject matter (i.e. material that is discriminatory, hateful, vulgar, pornographic, sexually-explicit, or obscene). This e-mail contains information that is considered inappropriate for the business environment and has been logged and will be reviewed to determine final disposition. If you have any questions, please direct them to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ' porn ' found! Mail has been archived! YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Re: [newbie] Parental Control
Just if you want to use some of the Parental Control software, my ISP has some on their site. http://www.stic.net is their website if you would like to see what they offer. don I thought I knew that I knew what I thought But now I know that what I thought I knew Isn't what I know I think I thought I knew. On Mon, 08 May 2000 07:42:46 -0500 WolfRyder [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Being a parent, when I discovered my then 15 year old viewing porn sites, after specifically telling him he couldn't, he lost his computer privileges for 3 months. How, you may think, did I accomplish this? Well, when I went to work, so did the power cords. While at home, the computer was usable by me only. Ultimately, parental control isn't a piece of software on a computer, it's the guts to say no and mean it, even if you take away the CPU or Modem or whatever needs removing. Passwording is another way. People rely to heavily on "something else" to do the monitoring for them instead of doing for themselves. And I agree, hate sites rank right on up there with porn. If anyone would like to discuss this further with me, feel free to email me directly. Carol YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Re: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control
What from me? No I havent been sending you anything...? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:07 PM Subject: Fw: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control I would like to have your system STOP sending these messages out to me and the other people on the mail group we are subscribed to, it is very annoying and unnecessary. If this is going into a business enviornment then we apologize for this but we are not responsible and would like to have these messages STOPPED. Thank You, don I thought I knew that I knew what I thought But now I know that what I thought I knew Isn't what I know I think I thought I knew. - Forwarded message -- From: "'NS005 ChineseWall Demon'" 'NS005_ChineseWall_Demon'@txu.com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:33:44 -0500 Subject: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MIMEsweeper ChineseWall Server: CN=NS005/OU=DSRV/O=Texas Utilities - --- Mail-Info From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] @ TU To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 05/09/2000 01:49:07 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Parental Control - --- 'ChineseWall Job' reports: TXU automatically screens all e-mail for inappropriate subject matter (i.e. material that is discriminatory, hateful, vulgar, pornographic, sexually-explicit, or obscene). This e-mail contains information that is considered inappropriate for the business environment and has been logged and will be reviewed to determine final disposition. If you have any questions, please direct them to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ' porn ' found! Mail has been archived! YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. _ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Re: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control
Why did i get this e-mail it has nothing to do with me. I dont know how you can accuse me off this. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:07 PM Subject: Fw: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control I would like to have your system STOP sending these messages out to me and the other people on the mail group we are subscribed to, it is very annoying and unnecessary. If this is going into a business enviornment then we apologize for this but we are not responsible and would like to have these messages STOPPED. Thank You, don I thought I knew that I knew what I thought But now I know that what I thought I knew Isn't what I know I think I thought I knew. - Forwarded message -- From: "'NS005 ChineseWall Demon'" 'NS005_ChineseWall_Demon'@txu.com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:33:44 -0500 Subject: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MIMEsweeper ChineseWall Server: CN=NS005/OU=DSRV/O=Texas Utilities - --- Mail-Info From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] @ TU To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 05/09/2000 01:49:07 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Parental Control - --- 'ChineseWall Job' reports: TXU automatically screens all e-mail for inappropriate subject matter (i.e. material that is discriminatory, hateful, vulgar, pornographic, sexually-explicit, or obscene). This e-mail contains information that is considered inappropriate for the business environment and has been logged and will be reviewed to determine final disposition. If you have any questions, please direct them to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ' porn ' found! Mail has been archived! YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. _ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Re: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control
OOPs i think i got something confused :) sorry i thoguht it was a personal mesasge cause it was forwarded. - Original Message - From: Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:43 PM Subject: Re: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control What from me? No I havent been sending you anything...? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:07 PM Subject: Fw: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control I would like to have your system STOP sending these messages out to me and the other people on the mail group we are subscribed to, it is very annoying and unnecessary. If this is going into a business enviornment then we apologize for this but we are not responsible and would like to have these messages STOPPED. Thank You, don I thought I knew that I knew what I thought But now I know that what I thought I knew Isn't what I know I think I thought I knew. - Forwarded message -- From: "'NS005 ChineseWall Demon'" 'NS005_ChineseWall_Demon'@txu.com To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:33:44 -0500 Subject: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MIMEsweeper ChineseWall Server: CN=NS005/OU=DSRV/O=Texas Utilities - --- Mail-Info From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] @ TU To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 05/09/2000 01:49:07 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Parental Control - --- 'ChineseWall Job' reports: TXU automatically screens all e-mail for inappropriate subject matter (i.e. material that is discriminatory, hateful, vulgar, pornographic, sexually-explicit, or obscene). This e-mail contains information that is considered inappropriate for the business environment and has been logged and will be reviewed to determine final disposition. If you have any questions, please direct them to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ' porn ' found! Mail has been archived! YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. _ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html _ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Re: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control
i think this whole discussion needs to die. everyone knows what is going on[i hope]so why not drop it. its not ones fault. just some one on the lists business has a filter. live with it. sorry this whole thread is making me crazy lol - Original Message - From: "Andy" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:48 PM Subject: Re: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control | Why did i get this e-mail it has nothing to do with me. I dont know how you | can accuse me off this. | - Original Message - | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:07 PM | Subject: Fw: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control | | | | I would like to have your system STOP sending these messages out to me | and the other people on the mail group we are subscribed to, it is very | annoying and unnecessary. If this is going into a business enviornment | then we apologize for this but we are not responsible and would like to | have these messages STOPPED. | | Thank You, | | don | I thought I knew that I knew what I thought | But now I know that what I thought I knew | Isn't what I know I think I thought I knew. | | - Forwarded message -- | From: "'NS005 ChineseWall Demon'" 'NS005_ChineseWall_Demon'@txu.com | To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:33:44 -0500 | Subject: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control | Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | | | MIMEsweeper ChineseWall | Server: CN=NS005/OU=DSRV/O=Texas Utilities | - | --- | Mail-Info | | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] @ TU | To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Date: 05/09/2000 01:49:07 PM | Subject: Re: [newbie] Parental Control | - | --- | 'ChineseWall Job' reports: | | TXU automatically screens all e-mail for inappropriate subject matter | (i.e. | material that is discriminatory, hateful, vulgar, pornographic, | sexually-explicit, or obscene). This e-mail contains information that is | considered inappropriate for the business environment and has been logged | and | will be reviewed to determine final disposition. If you have any | questions, | please direct them to [EMAIL PROTECTED] |' porn ' found! | | Mail has been archived! | | | | | | | YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! | Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! | Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: | http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. | | | | _ | NetZero - Defenders of the Free World | Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email | http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html | | _ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Re: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control
LOL it was me sorry i didnt know cause it was forwarded thats why i thought it was to me Sorry ok im dropping itNOW - Original Message - From: Marc [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 8:29 PM Subject: Re: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control i think this whole discussion needs to die. everyone knows what is going on[i hope]so why not drop it. its not ones fault. just some one on the lists business has a filter. live with it. sorry this whole thread is making me crazy lol - Original Message - From: "Andy" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 7:48 PM Subject: Re: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control | Why did i get this e-mail it has nothing to do with me. I dont know how you | can accuse me off this. | - Original Message - | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 6:07 PM | Subject: Fw: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control | | | | I would like to have your system STOP sending these messages out to me | and the other people on the mail group we are subscribed to, it is very | annoying and unnecessary. If this is going into a business enviornment | then we apologize for this but we are not responsible and would like to | have these messages STOPPED. | | Thank You, | | don | I thought I knew that I knew what I thought | But now I know that what I thought I knew | Isn't what I know I think I thought I knew. | | - Forwarded message -- | From: "'NS005 ChineseWall Demon'" 'NS005_ChineseWall_Demon'@txu.com | To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:33:44 -0500 | Subject: ChineseWall Job Re: Re: [newbie] Parental Control | Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | | | MIMEsweeper ChineseWall | Server: CN=NS005/OU=DSRV/O=Texas Utilities | - | --- | Mail-Info | | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] @ TU | To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Date: 05/09/2000 01:49:07 PM | Subject: Re: [newbie] Parental Control | - | --- | 'ChineseWall Job' reports: | | TXU automatically screens all e-mail for inappropriate subject matter | (i.e. | material that is discriminatory, hateful, vulgar, pornographic, | sexually-explicit, or obscene). This e-mail contains information that is | considered inappropriate for the business environment and has been logged | and | will be reviewed to determine final disposition. If you have any | questions, | please direct them to [EMAIL PROTECTED] |' porn ' found! | | Mail has been archived! | | | | | | | YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! | Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! | Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: | http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. | | | | _ | NetZero - Defenders of the Free World | Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email | http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html | | _ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html _ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Re: [newbie] Parental Control
Being a parent, when I discovered my then 15 year old viewing porn sites, after specifically telling him he couldn't, he lost his computer privileges for 3 months. How, you may think, did I accomplish this? Well, when I went to work, so did the power cords. While at home, the computer was usable by me only. Ultimately, parental control isn't a piece of software on a computer, it's the guts to say no and mean it, even if you take away the CPU or Modem or whatever needs removing. Passwording is another way. People rely to heavily on "something else" to do the monitoring for them instead of doing for themselves. And I agree, hate sites rank right on up there with porn. If anyone would like to discuss this further with me, feel free to email me directly. Carol At 04:42 AM 5/8/00 +0100, you wrote: Hi ~ For Netscape cache files, go to the user's home directory and cd .netscape/cache There are sixteen subdirectories of cached pages. Personally, I'd be more concerned about race-hate stuff than penthouse pictures ;-) Del Hello again. I was wondering if anyone could answer a query I have? Is it possible for root to view the history of a users browser? I asking as I am writing a newspaper article about the Linux system. Here in England, and I assume elsewhere, there is great concern over the amount of control a parent has over their childrens viewing of the interent especially with the growing prolifiation of porn sites. This is an area that I think Linux and open source distributors could exploit. With parents as root and so able to give and cancel permissions, they would have greater control over when and for how long a child could be on the internet. If they can also view the history logs of that users browser then again their worries over what their child has viewed can be diminished. Although free software is a plus and could creates a lot of interest, I feel that security is most on the minds of concerned parents and is an area that should be highlighted if Linux is to gain more supporters. I'm sorry if this is a bit long winded but I would be glad to here any responses either to my initial question or concerning the issue itself. -- Andrew Blackburn England --Learning at the deep end-- -- Personal website for M.E. news, views treatments: http://www.godot.connectfree.co.uk - home of the ME Medics Online Directory.
Re: [newbie] Parental Control
WolfRyder wrote: Being a parent, when I discovered my then 15 year old viewing porn sites, after specifically telling him he couldn't, he lost his computer privileges for 3 months. How, you may think, did I accomplish this? Well, when I went to work, so did the power cords. While at home, the computer was usable by me only. Ultimately, parental control isn't a piece of software on a computer, it's the guts to say no and mean it, even if you take away the CPU or Modem or whatever needs removing. Passwording is another way. People rely to heavily on "something else" to do the monitoring for them instead of doing for themselves. I agree. I have Freesco running as my gateway right now, and I have an old terminal set up so I can watch the dns queries out of the corner of my eye as I am working in my computer/electronics/reloading/hobby room. Definitely has came in handy. If I see a disturbing site name come up, I check it out. If it is objectional, well, that was the last time anyone in this household will ever see it on my network. Perhaps a bit high-handed, but then I am the one responsible for making sure that society gets a quality product in another 4 yrs, and I think this will help steer towards that path. Monte And I agree, hate sites rank right on up there with porn. If anyone would like to discuss this further with me, feel free to email me directly. Carol At 04:42 AM 5/8/00 +0100, you wrote: Hi ~ For Netscape cache files, go to the user's home directory and cd .netscape/cache There are sixteen subdirectories of cached pages. Personally, I'd be more concerned about race-hate stuff than penthouse pictures ;-) Del Hello again. I was wondering if anyone could answer a query I have? Is it possible for root to view the history of a users browser? I asking as I am writing a newspaper article about the Linux system. Here in England, and I assume elsewhere, there is great concern over the amount of control a parent has over their childrens viewing of the interent especially with the growing prolifiation of porn sites. This is an area that I think Linux and open source distributors could exploit. With parents as root and so able to give and cancel permissions, they would have greater control over when and for how long a child could be on the internet. If they can also view the history logs of that users browser then again their worries over what their child has viewed can be diminished. Although free software is a plus and could creates a lot of interest, I feel that security is most on the minds of concerned parents and is an area that should be highlighted if Linux is to gain more supporters. I'm sorry if this is a bit long winded but I would be glad to here any responses either to my initial question or concerning the issue itself. -- Andrew Blackburn England --Learning at the deep end-- -- Personal website for M.E. news, views treatments: http://www.godot.connectfree.co.uk - home of the ME Medics Online Directory. __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
[newbie] Parental control
Hello again. I was wondering if anyone could answer a query I have? Is it possible for root to view the history of a users browser? I asking as I am writing a newspaper article about the Linux system. Here in England, and I assume elsewhere, there is great concern over the amount of control a parent has over their childrens viewing of the interent especially with the growing prolifiation of porn sites. This is an area that I think Linux and open source distributors could exploit. With parents as root and so able to give and cancel permissions, they would have greater control over when and for how long a child could be on the internet. If they can also view the history logs of that users browser then again their worries over what their child has viewed can be diminished. Although free software is a plus and could creates a lot of interest, I feel that security is most on the minds of concerned parents and is an area that should be highlighted if Linux is to gain more supporters. I'm sorry if this is a bit long winded but I would be glad to here any responses either to my initial question or concerning the issue itself. -- Andrew Blackburn England --Learning at the deep end--
