Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
On Thu, 4 Apr 2002 05:45:01 +1200, Walter Logeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Walter Logeman, (thats me :-) On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:47, in [newbie] Publishing in Linux, wrote: I have a brochure i need to produce and the printing place will accept Publisher, Photoshop, or Pagemaker files. Is there a way of generating compatible files in some way - we may need to pass the file back forth in email. Its been a great discussion... thanks for the many useful ideas and contributions. I am still not sure where to start. LaTeX sounds great... but something to grow into, and i may. Does it layout graphics? Right now I's like to start with something less steep. Ian Clatworthy's sdf sounds useful to create the files - and pdf format sounds like it might have to be the way to go - proprietary though it is. Which leaves me wondering which ap to use. Kword (thanks Robin) seems a possibility, I have version 1.1 - crashed several times on me and seems not ready. However if someone reports that a brochure with images that bleed out to the edge can be produced in a file the commercial printer can use I'll persevere. I get the sense that no word processor would be up to it. The brochure i have is in Word now but that is really not right, though useful to as an initial step in getting the wording and pix right. As a matter of interest the brochure will be the main flyer for http://www.lyfordtreks.co.nz so you can get an idea of what might be needed. ~ Steve wrote: I hope it changes as the high end multimedia people have adopted Linux, now Alias Wavefront Maya is available for Linux. What are these things? ~ I am still looking for a simple publishing ap that will allow me to layout a document... what is available? Walter Just about any app can 'print' to a Postscript file, since GNU/Linux's printing system is based around Postscript. That means you're free to use apps like TEX, StarOffice/OpenOffice.org, Abiword and Kword. After you've made the Postscript file, you can use ps2pdf or ps2pdf13 (part of the ghostscript package) to convert it to PDF. The GIMP can read and write a large variety of formats. Try to see if the printing place will accept one of these formats. Some printers may accept formats like PNG, TIFF and TGA. My apologies if this has already been mentioned in this thread. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan I don't use a marketing eye, I simply don't care. There are others who do, I'll let them worry about it. -- Linus Torvalds Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
Before OS X, Adobe would likely have sold Linux versions of FrameMaker, but they wouldn't have made any money because the development costs would have far outweighed the revenues. With the advent of OS X, though, Adobe is finally forced to develop software in a unix-type environment. Granted, it's not Linux (and Linux doesn't/may never have OS X emulation). But it'll be far easier for Adobe to make Linux versions of their software because they'll have unix-like versions to begin with instead of having to start from scratch. The lesser development costs in conjunction with an ever- increasing market of Linux users may actually compel Adobe, and other OS X software companies, to make Linux versions. Of course, this is all wild speculation because I know very little about OS X, other than it's a *nix. But, I can't help but think that the presence of OS X will indirectly be a godsend to the Linux community if such a pattern emerges. What can I say? I'm an ignorant optomist. Miark On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 00:40:46 -0500, sda [EMAIL PROTECTED] spoke thusly: On Sat, Mar 23, 2002 at 09:26:58PM +, Chris Keelan wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dateline: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:48:02 +0200: laying low until the bleeding stops, Robin Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] transmits: I don't think Adobe (or any software house) will ever be convinced they can make $ out of Linux (hardware firms have woken up to the potential, but that's a qualitativey different situation). However, we will probably see Linux apps which can produce Quark or FrameMaker-compatible documents soon -- after all, KWord is modelled on FrameMaker, I think (possibly one reason why I'm not terribly keen on it - I just can't think in terms of frames). I don't think they'll have to be convinced. They will port their apps to Mac OS X because that platform dominates the publishing industry-- well advertising and marketing, anyway. OS X is BSD. How long before we're running Quark in BSD or OS X emulation mode on Linux? My guess is not long. Having it running in the Cocoa framework is a long way from having it running in other Unices or Linux. That's one of the reasons Apple will not support other GUI's so they can protect publishers of proprietary software from such scenarios. It's possible but not trival to port from proprietary cocoa api to XFree. If it runs on Darwin then you would be correct. -- -^- -^- ? ?Steve ^ ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ' ` Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 00:48:47 -0500 sda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://web2.altmuehlnet.de/fschmid/index.html I don't think it's intended to be anything but well, Scribus. You're not kidding about being in the early stages - have you actually tried it? It's quite `rough', and if it's trying to emulate PageMangler than that's just too bad. PageMaker is not a bonafide publishing app, and is targeted towards more of the office secretary market. Adobe has InDesign as their flagship layout app - not bad, v2 is quite elegant and intuitive, especially if one is used to Illustrator. I like it, but then I like Illustrator. I don't think Scribus is going anywhere in the next five years, if I remember correctly there's only one guy working on it. I gave it a workout a couple months ago - terrible, I'd rather use TeX. ;) I did try it briefly. I tried to import a text file and it hung. It might one day be quite useful for small businesses and home users who only need basic features. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
On Sun, 24 Mar 2002 16:00:37 +0200 Robin Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW, anyone here used TeXmacs? It claims to be much better than LyX and totally WYSIWYG (if recent /. posts are anything to go by) but I'm skeptical. TeXmacs is very, very impressive, but it is aimed squarely at the hard-core maths and science folks. Its similar to LyX in having classes such as book, article, letter etc,. and it does itemise, enumerate, description, tables etc just like LyX but without the easy to use pull-down menu. One thing that does stand out, compared with other Linux apps and especially LyX, is the interesting way it handles fonts. I haven't tried to use it to write a large text document, and from what I have seen, it would not be as easy to do it in TeXmacs as in LyX. Still, its one to keep an eye on, even if you are not a mathematician. Definitely give it a try. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
On Saturday 23 March 2002 01:19, sda wrote: Ghostscript doesn't create the best PDF's, [for publishing], remember `portable document format' is a creation of Adobe - they own it. So obviously the postscript level three systems that Adobe licenses work best for Acrobat files. Additonally modern prepress systems RIP's [raster image processing] usually do some rather neat things with PDF's. Remember we're talking about print publishing, so that PDF has to colour separate and trap, also, in the real world, changes often come after the fact. How many people here know how to edit a PDF or a postcript file, on another box but their own? If you've attempted such, you'd quickly realize that font's are a problem when using different systems. I might not have the same font that the author used. A properly made PDF file is excellent for publishing, as the fonts are embedded. One can't say the same about postcript files and they are difficult to pre-flight [check for errors prior to publishing]. That makes sense. AFAIK, it's possible to embed PDF fonts when converting from LaTeX. Not sure how well it works, though - I only use PDF files for the web, and quickkly it's a minefield: pslatex fonts work fine, many others will produce nice documents, but only for the 1% of web users who have Ghostscript. So presumably what is needed for Linux/LaTeX users is a better way to produce PDF directly, rather than the usual dvi-ps-pdf route. pdftex has its advocates, but it's still beta, and thin on features at the moment. In terms of accepting just .ps files - you have to remember that this file must work with the publisher pre-press systems. Unless one has a history with the publisher, they generally don't accept .ps files as most people don't know the specs required for the publishers systems. If you do it the standard way, one submits the job in Quark, FrameMaker, whatever and the publisher creates the postscript according to their specs. Again changes are often made after the fact to documents. Who wants to be responsible for altering a clients .ps? Not me and other's in the industry feel the same way. Heh, that's one reason why I'd prefer to submit as .ps! Also I'm surprised that people are mentioning word processors in this thread. Word processors aren't used in professional publishing - no typesetter would be caught using such and they don't play well with pre-press systems. TeX used to be the standard, but when the modern page layout apps came along, like Quark, FrameMaker, the use of LaTeX and TeX quickly fell by the wayside. The output was considered too unreliable and doing changes in a busy workflow was awkward to say the least. No one that has used LaTeX in the past and now uses the very sophisticated layout apps, would ever wish LaTeX on their worst enemy. It has it's uses, but not in the modern publishing environment. Unfortunately these layout apps haven't been ported to Linux. That'll never happen until font foundries are better supported and companies like Adobe are convinced they can make $ from Linux users. Sorry to here that LaTeX has lost popularity outside academia - of all the formats I've looked at, it seems the best, if only because it converts well to other formats. I find the situation pretty confusing at the moment - I mean one publisher I submitted a manuscript to asked for .rtf ! There again, there's a difference between publishers (who are going to mess about with your manuscript considerably) and printers, who presumably only want to tweak thinks visually a bit. I don't think Adobe (or any software house) will ever be convinced they can make $ out of Linux (hardware firms have woken up to the potential, but that's a qualitativey different situation). However, we will probably see Linux apps which can produce Quark or FrameMaker-compatible documents soon -- after all, KWord is modelled on FrameMaker, I think (possibly one reason why I'm not terribly keen on it - I just can't think in terms of frames). Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:48:02 +0200 Robin Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think Adobe (or any software house) will ever be convinced they can make $ out of Linux (hardware firms have woken up to the potential, but that's a qualitativey different situation). However, we will probably see Linux apps which can produce Quark or FrameMaker-compatible documents soon -- after all, KWord is modelled on FrameMaker, I think (possibly one reason why I'm not terribly keen on it - I just can't think in terms of frames). Robin Scribus is intended to be the Linux equivalent of Adobe PageMaker, Quark or Adobe Indesign. It looks promising, is progressing nicely by the looks of it, but is still in the very early stages of development.. http://web2.altmuehlnet.de/fschmid/index.html Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dateline: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:48:02 +0200: laying low until the bleeding stops, Robin Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] transmits: I don't think Adobe (or any software house) will ever be convinced they can make $ out of Linux (hardware firms have woken up to the potential, but that's a qualitativey different situation). However, we will probably see Linux apps which can produce Quark or FrameMaker-compatible documents soon -- after all, KWord is modelled on FrameMaker, I think (possibly one reason why I'm not terribly keen on it - I just can't think in terms of frames). I don't think they'll have to be convinced. They will port their apps to Mac OS X because that platform dominates the publishing industry-- well advertising and marketing, anyway. OS X is BSD. How long before we're running Quark in BSD or OS X emulation mode on Linux? My guess is not long. ~ C -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.6 and Gnu Privacy Guard http://www.gnupg.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAjyc8w8ACgkQBiw56jISYlCsKQCfavXnWv7iVCdagTB8FWDRlfrP NmkAoL86ZOOt96lSPWbt7rqR9DblX/9v =1qpw -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
On Friday 22 March 2002 09:15, sda wrote: As someone involved in publishing - not many pre-press shops will accept raw .ps files from a client. Pre-press systems are so complicated now days, that usually files should be in the accepted publishing standard apps, ie FrameMaker, Quark, InDesign or PDF. Files are flightchecked to ensure quality and acceptability for the publishers pre-press systems. Anything else submitted will drive the costs for the client up considerably. The one indication that this must be a small shop is the fact they accept M$ publisher. Anybody with publishing experience would rather accept raw LaTex then M$ publisher. TeX/LaTex is not an accepted standard in the industry only amongst academics. The older typsetters whom have extensive experience in TeX, would never go back now that the true WYSIWYG apps like the above are available. Unfortunately nothing in the Linux world is adequate for print publishing and/or layout. A question - why wouldn't publishers who accept PDF not accept PS, since all they have to do is run pstopdf on it? Is there a difference between PDF files generated in this way and those produced by other apps? Robin -- Give me the views, and I'll give you the arguments. - Chrysippus Robin Turner IDMYO, Bilkent Universitesi Ankara 06533 Turkey http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
And the really frustrating thing is having spent hours setting it all up and writing some long paper at the end of it all you go to print it off and get told LaTeX error better fix it. No thanks. John On Friday 22 March 2002 12:28 am, you wrote: On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 01:03:32 +0200 Robin Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I did my MA dissertation on Word and spent so long setting up styles to do what I wanted, it would have been quicker to have formatted everything by hand (and this was something very, very simple - I just wanted decimal numbered subheadings, blockquotes etc. of the normal type you'd find in the LaTeX article class). After numerous misnumberings and other glitches, I finally got it working long enough to get a printout. Oh well, I thought, it was probably worth the effort, since I can use the same styles in other papers. Then I came back after the summer break, and all my styles were gone. I did my Ph.D dissertation in WordPerfect for Windows. I don't know how many months I wasted in trying to get it to behave properly. It would suddenly decide to screw-up my page numbering, or much worse, decide to reorganise all my footnotes. It would take hours to sort out the mess, and then it would do it again. Word processors like WP and Word are great for short business letters, but they are not designed for writing very large, complex, multi-chapter documents with equations and footnotes. I wish I had known about LyX and LaTeX at the time. It would have saved me a lot of time and trouble. Advanced use of LyX is a steep learning curve, but its the most productive platform there is for writing large, complex documents. -- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
On Friday 22 March 2002 13:12, John Richard Smith wrote: And the really frustrating thing is having spent hours setting it all up and writing some long paper at the end of it all you go to print it off and get told LaTeX error better fix it. No thanks. Well, at least LaTeX errors are usually fixable! 95% of errors I've had were the result of either changing the document class (so I had incompatible environments etc.) or screwing up LaTeX code (Evil Red Text, in LyX terminology). Who would write a whole paper before checking DVI output? Another reason I prefer LyX is that on the occasions when something won't output to DVI, or there's some formatting I can't work out how to do, I can post to the users list and get a reply the same day - don't know if I could do that with Word/WordPerfect. There's an analogy here with Linux in general. I get error messages in both Windows and Linux, but the latter usually indicate something I can fix, or can ask other people how to fix. Smae goes for LaTeX error messages - they tell you what they think is wrong, and usually give you advice about how to fix it. As for the steep learning curve mentioned elsewhere Yes, LyX is a bit of a brainteaser at first, because it's so different. However, for most purposes you only really need to learn a small subset of what is possible with the program (actually, the same goes for something like Word - if I had the time to learn all the features in Word 2000, I'd spend it learning C++). I have a very basic guide at http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin/lyxguide.pdf Robin -- Give me the views, and I'll give you the arguments. - Chrysippus Robin Turner IDMYO, Bilkent Universitesi Ankara 06533 Turkey http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:31:36 +0200 Robin Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, LyX is a bit of a brainteaser at first, because it's so different. However, for most purposes you only really need to learn a small subset of what is possible with the program (actually, the same goes for something like Word - if I had the time to learn all the features in Word 2000, I'd spend it learning C++). I have a very basic guide at http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin/lyxguide.pdf Nice tutorial. Of course, another reason to use LyX over proprietary applications is that the data is not locked away in a file format that might be unrecoverable, or only recoverable with great difficulty, within a few years. That will probably be the case with WordPerfect files one day. But LyX files are human readable in any plain text editor. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
On Wednesday 20 March 2002 22:09, civileme wrote: Robin Turner wrote: If they accept postscript files, you might benefit by learning to use LyX. Most who do or who learn LaTeX just don't return to standard inflexible, do-everything-with-the-spacebar, WYSIWYG type of word processor. As a LyX fanatic, I was going to mention it, but Walter mentioned a brochure, which might require a lot of complex page-formatting. Sure, you can do that in LyX (people have used it for fanzines, for example) but you usually have to know a fair bit of LaTeX to get exactly the effect you want. Although I'm not keen on KWord, it does that kind of frame-based stuff pretty well. But for general-purpose writing, Civileme is absolutely right. On the occasions where I have to use normal word processors like Word or Starwriter, they drive me crazy now. Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
Just a comment (without trying to start a flamewar) -- the key to using a WYSIWYG word processor like Word is to learn to use styles. And, Word will allow two spaces after punctuation ending a sentence (period, question mark, explanation point), a trick that LyX, et.al., cannot manange, AFAIK. Randy Kramer Robin Turner wrote: On Wednesday 20 March 2002 22:09, civileme wrote: Robin Turner wrote: If they accept postscript files, you might benefit by learning to use LyX. Most who do or who learn LaTeX just don't return to standard inflexible, do-everything-with-the-spacebar, WYSIWYG type of word processor. As a LyX fanatic, I was going to mention it, but Walter mentioned a brochure, which might require a lot of complex page-formatting. Sure, you can do that in LyX (people have used it for fanzines, for example) but you usually have to know a fair bit of LaTeX to get exactly the effect you want. Although I'm not keen on KWord, it does that kind of frame-based stuff pretty well. But for general-purpose writing, Civileme is absolutely right. On the occasions where I have to use normal word processors like Word or Starwriter, they drive me crazy now. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 01:03:32 +0200 Robin Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I did my MA dissertation on Word and spent so long setting up styles to do what I wanted, it would have been quicker to have formatted everything by hand (and this was something very, very simple - I just wanted decimal numbered subheadings, blockquotes etc. of the normal type you'd find in the LaTeX article class). After numerous misnumberings and other glitches, I finally got it working long enough to get a printout. Oh well, I thought, it was probably worth the effort, since I can use the same styles in other papers. Then I came back after the summer break, and all my styles were gone. I did my Ph.D dissertation in WordPerfect for Windows. I don't know how many months I wasted in trying to get it to behave properly. It would suddenly decide to screw-up my page numbering, or much worse, decide to reorganise all my footnotes. It would take hours to sort out the mess, and then it would do it again. Word processors like WP and Word are great for short business letters, but they are not designed for writing very large, complex, multi-chapter documents with equations and footnotes. I wish I had known about LyX and LaTeX at the time. It would have saved me a lot of time and trouble. Advanced use of LyX is a steep learning curve, but its the most productive platform there is for writing large, complex documents. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
Randy Kramer wrote: Just a comment (without trying to start a flamewar) -- the key to using a WYSIWYG word processor like Word is to learn to use styles. And, Word will allow two spaces after punctuation ending a sentence (period, question mark, explanation point), a trick that LyX, et.al., cannot manange, AFAIK. Randy Kramer Robin Turner wrote: On Wednesday 20 March 2002 22:09, civileme wrote: Robin Turner wrote: If they accept postscript files, you might benefit by learning to use LyX. Most who do or who learn LaTeX just don't return to standard inflexible, do-everything-with-the-spacebar, WYSIWYG type of word processor. As a LyX fanatic, I was going to mention it, but Walter mentioned a brochure, which might require a lot of complex page-formatting. Sure, you can do that in LyX (people have used it for fanzines, for example) but you usually have to know a fair bit of LaTeX to get exactly the effect you want. Although I'm not keen on KWord, it does that kind of frame-based stuff pretty well. But for general-purpose writing, Civileme is absolutely right. On the occasions where I have to use normal word processors like Word or Starwriter, they drive me crazy now. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Actually LyX will show you one spaceat the end of a sentence, but place two in the document, even if you type 100. It will offer you the help menu in a banner at the bottom of the screen when you type the second space, or try to do multiple carriage returns at the end of a paragraph. Still, mastering styles is exactly what you need to run LyX, and LyX offers styles the WYSIWYG editors don't have, like the List and Description environments. Of coursae, most folks will continue to try to use software as familiar as possible to what they learned on; hence my predilection to use emacs when others would serve better, and the fanaticism approaching jihad you run into in some circles when vi vs. emacs is discussed. So use what you like. sdf is still a good collection of translation tools though they are already in CUPS, and a printer who won't accept postscript files is best avoided, because he isn't a real printer. Postscript is _the_ standard, and translating .ps to .pdf is pretty easy. Civileme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
Robin Turner wrote: snip As for double-spacing after a sentence, you're right. LyX (or rather LaTeX, to which it is a front-end) does not double-space. It uses an algorithm which takes into account the length of the line and the number of words, multiplying whitespace between words, between words within a sentence separated by punctuation, and between sentences to different degrees (the only disadvantage is that after typing something like Mr., you have to remember to hit Ctrl-space, otherwise it thinks it's the end of a sentence). Compare the printed output from LyX/LaTeX to that produced by any word-processor, and you'll see the difference. A silly question. Why does Latex use this complicated algorithm? Michael Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
On Wednesday 20 March 2002 16:30, Derek Jennings wrote: Well it is easy enough to convert a postscript file generated by a Linux application to Pagemaker pdf format. Just use ps2pdf Any KDE application can print directly to pdf using it. For other apps print to a postscript file then convert using ps2pdf in a command line. Unfortunately importing documents in pdf format into a word processor in Linux is not possible AFAIK. Unless you want to convert it to ascii first and lose all the formatting (and if formatting wasn't important, why use PDF?). I here copy-pasting from PDF in KDE is in the offing, though (might even be there already - I'm pretty behind at the moment). Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Publishing in Linux
Robin Turner wrote: On Thursday 21 March 2002 03:47, Walter Logeman wrote: Hi, I have a brochure i need to produce and the printing place will accept Publisher, Photoshop, or Pagemaker files. Is there a way of generating cmpatable files in some way - we may need to pass the file back forth in email. Best to ask them what file formats they can read. PDF is the obvious choice while you're bouncing stuff between you (it's often used as a lingua franca between PageMaker and QuarkXPress), though for final copy PostScript will of course be better (if the printers say they can't handle PostScript, they're not real printers). Robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com You might want to acquire sdf which is a neat little package that will not only allow coding some cool formats but also will do translations to pdf, doc, html, sgml, postscript and other formats. Of course, there are some tools just lying around that do that as well, and some of the word processors will work with them. sdf is simple document formatter or something similar and is easy to find through google. (MIght want to search on the author, Ian Clatworthy) If they accept postscript files, you might benefit by learning to use LyX. Most who do or who learn LaTeX just don't return to standard inflexible, do-everything-with-the-spacebar, WYSIWYG type of word processor. Civileme Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
