Re: Re[12]: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 20:44, rikona wrote: Hello Aron, Friday, October 10, 2003, 4:15:06 PM, you wrote: AS On my first box (Altair 8080) you had to load a 512 byte program (in hex AS by hand), which gave Dumbo enough smarts to read the paper tape Then you AS could load a program. I remember. Was that tape Bill's Basic, perchance? :-) AS Tom Pitmans Ity Bity Basic 4K total You have a long history of not supporting M$, I guess. :-) as I recall, it was altair's and heath's basic that billy was first stealing. -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: Re[12]: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
On Sat, 2003-10-11 at 05:29, ed tharp wrote: On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 20:44, rikona wrote: Hello Aron, Friday, October 10, 2003, 4:15:06 PM, you wrote: AS On my first box (Altair 8080) you had to load a 512 byte program (in hex AS by hand), which gave Dumbo enough smarts to read the paper tape Then you AS could load a program. I remember. Was that tape Bill's Basic, perchance? :-) AS Tom Pitmans Ity Bity Basic 4K total Never used the Altair Basic (Couldn't afford it ) as it cost $108.00 IIRC Peoples Computing sold the paper tape for $5.00 You have a long history of not supporting M$, I guess. :-) as I recall, it was altair's and heath's basic that billy was first stealing. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: Re[4]: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 22:43, rikona wrote: Hello Aron, Thursday, October 9, 2003, 2:42:17 PM, you wrote: True. Suppose there is nothing at all on the MB except an encrypted flash that responds only to the M$ key? That would sure 'protect us' now, wouldn't it? :-((( What could we do? AS Reprogram the flash (1) How would you reprogram if reprogramming required the M$ key? (2) Even if you did, you have broken an encrypted object, and would be subject to Draconian penalties, which I'm sure M$ would pursue diligently with their legal army. Sounds risky, unless I'm missing something. Ok just replace the flash -- rikonamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: Re[6]: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 07:16, rikona wrote: Hello Aron, Friday, October 10, 2003, 12:05:47 AM, you wrote: (1) How would you reprogram if reprogramming required the M$ key? (2) Even if you did, you have broken an encrypted object, and would be subject to Draconian penalties, which I'm sure M$ would pursue diligently with their legal army. Sounds risky, unless I'm missing something. AS Ok just replace the flash (1) The only flash that will work on this board is the one that requires the M$ key. Replacing it does not get you anywhere. (2) Likely to be a proprietary chip and hard to get. (3) With modern board construction, might be quite difficult to replace. This one's a killer. Watch out. You mean that the board has an encrypted flash protecting the encrypted flash. :-0 There is a Linux BIOS out there http://www.linuxbios.org/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re[8]: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
Hello Aron, Friday, October 10, 2003, 9:13:18 AM, you wrote: AS You mean that the board has an encrypted flash protecting the encrypted AS flash. :-0 Sort of like that, yes. No key, no flash, no bios. AS There is a Linux BIOS out there http://www.linuxbios.org/ Remember, the board has nothing, not even the HW initialization needed to activate the linux bios. How will you get the HW initialization on that board? If they want to really protect the board, M$ would disable, in HW, certain conduits on the board, and these would be activated only by the M$ bios. So - even if you use a plug-in board to provide the bios, the main board will still not work. They can make this REALLY difficult, if they want to. It's the 'final solution' Herr Bill might use to stamp out linux, with a 'cover story' of making users more secure. Fits the M$ mentality just fine. -- rikonamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: Re[8]: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 10:27, rikona wrote: Hello Aron, Friday, October 10, 2003, 9:13:18 AM, you wrote: AS You mean that the board has an encrypted flash protecting the encrypted AS flash. :-0 Sort of like that, yes. No key, no flash, no bios. AS There is a Linux BIOS out there http://www.linuxbios.org/ Remember, the board has nothing, not even the HW initialization needed to activate the linux bios. How will you get the HW initialization on that board? If they want to really protect the board, M$ would disable, in HW, certain conduits on the board, and these would be activated only by the M$ bios. So - even if you use a plug-in board to provide the bios, the main board will still not work. They can make this REALLY difficult, if they want to. It's the 'final solution' Herr Bill might use to stamp out linux, with a 'cover story' of making users more secure. Fits the M$ mentality just fine. True but board designs are easy to come by given you scerenaro I would expect a lively black market in boards that let younput in your on bios On my first box (Altair 8080) you had to load a 512 byte program (in hex by hand), which gave Dumbo enough smarts to read the paper tape Then you could load a program. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re[10]: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
Hello Aron, Friday, October 10, 2003, 2:20:56 PM, you wrote: It's the 'final solution' Herr Bill might use to stamp out linux, with a 'cover story' of making users more secure. Fits the M$ mentality just fine. AS True but board designs are easy to come by given you scerenaro I would AS expect a lively black market in boards that let younput in your on bios Now you're talkin'. With luck, China will come to our rescue. :-) Especially if they go linux. Might even get linux-tailored boards. We'd still have the authentication problems, though. :-(( Authentication will be our downfall. AS On my first box (Altair 8080) you had to load a 512 byte program (in hex AS by hand), which gave Dumbo enough smarts to read the paper tape Then you AS could load a program. I remember. Was that tape Bill's Basic, perchance? :-) -- rikonamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
On Saturday 11 October 2003 00:12, rikona wrote: Now you're talkin'. With luck, China will come to our rescue. :-) Don't bet on it..though the Chinese government doesn't want to play ball with Bill, the people do. If they get (half) the chance they'll use of a pirated copy of M$ any-day, instead of Linux. It's what made M$ big; the ease which which it can be copied/cracked. Every un-affordable program (read Delphi/kylix, in my case) can be bought there for next to nothing on most market places. Why would they want to go linux.M$ or USA can't touch them (yet)!! Good luck, HarM -- Mandrake HowTo's more: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: Re[10]: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
On Fri, 2003-10-10 at 15:12, rikona wrote: Hello Aron, Friday, October 10, 2003, 2:20:56 PM, you wrote: It's the 'final solution' Herr Bill might use to stamp out linux, with a 'cover story' of making users more secure. Fits the M$ mentality just fine. AS True but board designs are easy to come by given you scerenaro I would AS expect a lively black market in boards that let younput in your on bios Now you're talkin'. With luck, China will come to our rescue. :-) Especially if they go linux. Might even get linux-tailored boards. We'd still have the authentication problems, though. :-(( Authentication will be our downfall. AS On my first box (Altair 8080) you had to load a 512 byte program (in hex AS by hand), which gave Dumbo enough smarts to read the paper tape Then you AS could load a program. I remember. Was that tape Bill's Basic, perchance? :-) Tom Pitmans Ity Bity Basic 4K total Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re[12]: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
Hello Aron, Friday, October 10, 2003, 4:15:06 PM, you wrote: AS On my first box (Altair 8080) you had to load a 512 byte program (in hex AS by hand), which gave Dumbo enough smarts to read the paper tape Then you AS could load a program. I remember. Was that tape Bill's Basic, perchance? :-) AS Tom Pitmans Ity Bity Basic 4K total You have a long history of not supporting M$, I guess. :-) -- rikonamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re[2]: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
Hello H.J.Bathoorn, Friday, October 10, 2003, 3:31:23 PM, you wrote: HJB On Saturday 11 October 2003 00:12, rikona wrote: Now you're talkin'. With luck, China will come to our rescue. :-) HJB Don't bet on it..though the Chinese government doesn't want to play ball HJB with Bill, the people do. I was thinking about the 'official' use of linux. Someone would have to make boards if all the others are tied to Win. Someone there might see an opportunity to make some money selling them here as well as in China. You bring up a good point about the software share, though. If M$ goes through with hard-to-crack protection, though, that market will evaporate. With luck, linux will start to look a lot better there too. -- rikonamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
On Friday 10 October 2003 08:44 pm, rikona wrote: You have a long history of not supporting M$, I guess. :-) Ditto here - I started out with Atari computing in 1983, and was still using it to browse the 'Net in 93, running Mint (Mint Is Not TOS!) (minix clone) on an Atari Falcon 030, until I finally switched to Mandrake Linux v7.0 when Atari support finally got too low (its still around though). Nowhere did I ever submit (kneel!) to MS... :-) -- /\ DarkLord \/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 14:24:47 -0700 rikona [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: H A deal with BIOS maker Phoenix Technologies would allow the H operating system to directly control hardware. Hardware control is the holy grail. The US gov't tried it back a bit by trying to get a chip in most everything electronic. Public howl finally defeated that, but it was close. It was clear that the media giants would try again. I guess it's easier to just go to M$ and have them do it. H Looks like our next target is this Phoenix Technologies. Try to spread the word: check carefully and NEVER buy any computer with a Phoenix BIOS. I thought Palladium was bad. This is ridiculous It is the same chip-in-everything idea that was defeated before, but cast in a slightly different light. This time, unfortunately, it has the might of M$ behind it. Bad news. On the other hand, it might p*ss off enough people that linux will begin to look much more attractive. M$ probably realizes this too, and might do things to make our life difficult (again, authorization control is the key). This got covered pretty heavily on the local LUG list, and it seems Linux may very well be able to simply go around this in most cases anyway: Quote: In any case, Linux only uses the BIOS to a very limited degree, and it can even bypass PnP in the BIOS so one wonders how much it matters that MS-Windows will be so closely tied to the BIOS. I'd *really* like to hear Tom's thoughts on that one. Also, someone posted a link to this: http://www.openbios.org/ Cheers! -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Man's reach must exceed his grasp, for why else the heavens? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 14:24:47 -0700 rikona [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Try to spread the word: check carefully and NEVER buy any computer with a Phoenix BIOS. Unfortunately, this may be spreading beyond Phoenix: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer/0,39020387,2130826,00.htm Quote: Intel predicted the end of one of the last remnants of the original IBM PC, at the Intel Developer Forum in San Jose this week. For more than twenty years, the PC has relied on the BIOS (Basic Input Output System), a small set of fixed software subroutines normally built into a chip on the motherboard. This hangover from a distant past is causing more and more problems, said Mark Doran, the principal engineer behind the Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI) project that aims to humanely kill the antique. and the scary part: Because it gives a new level of control over the hardware, it's also of interest to digital rights management and security designers. shudder -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ The only difference between a rut and a grave is their dimensions. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 02:16, HaywireMac wrote: On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 14:24:47 -0700 rikona [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Try to spread the word: check carefully and NEVER buy any computer with a Phoenix BIOS. Unfortunately, this may be spreading beyond Phoenix: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer/0,39020387,2130826,00.htm Quote: Intel predicted the end of one of the last remnants of the original IBM PC, at the Intel Developer Forum in San Jose this week. For more than twenty years, the PC has relied on the BIOS (Basic Input Output System), a small set of fixed software subroutines normally built into a chip on the motherboard. This hangover from a distant past is causing more and more problems, said Mark Doran, the principal engineer behind the Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI) project that aims to humanely kill the antique. and the scary part: Because it gives a new level of control over the hardware, it's also of interest to digital rights management and security designers. shudder GNU-Linux has for a long time been able to work around bios settings, and not even use the bios for a lot of things, including hard drive access and settings (ie; hdparm over riding what ever the bios says) Trusted Computing is on the way, and Linux will be able to handle it too, in a kernel module form, I think. good write up about it in Linux Journal (aug,2003) -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
On 09 Oct 2003 06:55:52 -0400 ed tharp [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: GNU-Linux has for a long time been able to work around bios settings, and not even use the bios for a lot of things, including hard drive access and settings (ie; hdparm over riding what ever the bios says) Trusted Computing is on the way, and Linux will be able to handle it too, in a kernel module form, I think. Good to know, thanks. Still, it is important to keep a wary eye on MS, Big Media, and hardware vendors. If they see Linux as a threat to their hegemony, there's no telling what they might attempt. For example, although Linux will always be able to bypass, say, the BIOS shenanigans, all the while these people are slowly but surely turning the internet into their consumerist content-delivery-system, ie. a bigger, more flashy version of TV. It's important that the internet remain, and GNU-Linux be involved in, a free exchange of ideas, both technical and activist. So what if I can run Linux as my OS if all I can do with it is play Frozen Bubble...? -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ Life exists for no known purpose. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re[2]: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
Hello HaywireMac, Thursday, October 9, 2003, 4:58:29 AM, you wrote: H Good to know, thanks. Still, it is important to keep a wary eye on H MS, Big Media, and hardware vendors. If they see Linux as a threat H to their hegemony, there's no telling what they might attempt. True. Suppose there is nothing at all on the MB except an encrypted flash that responds only to the M$ key? That would sure 'protect us' now, wouldn't it? :-((( What could we do? H So what if I can run Linux as my OS if all I can do with it is play H Frozen Bubble...? Authorization will be our downfall. It is also the best way for M$ to control the net. This is the thing to watch out for. Note that the draconian laws also address this issue, and will make it tough to get around. -- rikonamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: Re[2]: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 17:42, Aron Smith wrote: On Thu, 2003-10-09 at 11:38, rikona wrote: Hello HaywireMac, Thursday, October 9, 2003, 4:58:29 AM, you wrote: H Good to know, thanks. Still, it is important to keep a wary eye on H MS, Big Media, and hardware vendors. If they see Linux as a threat H to their hegemony, there's no telling what they might attempt. True. Suppose there is nothing at all on the MB except an encrypted flash that responds only to the M$ key? That would sure 'protect us' now, wouldn't it? :-((( What could we do? Reprogram the flash and optimise for a linux kernal some one would do it and have it on the net within 2 days of it happining. H So what if I can run Linux as my OS if all I can do with it is play H Frozen Bubble...? Authorization will be our downfall. It is also the best way for M$ to control the net. This is the thing to watch out for. Note that the draconian laws also address this issue, and will make it tough to get around. can you imagine a world were the IP was safe from M$ ever stealing it and hiding it in some binary and calling it theirs? __ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re[4]: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
Hello Aron, Thursday, October 9, 2003, 2:42:17 PM, you wrote: True. Suppose there is nothing at all on the MB except an encrypted flash that responds only to the M$ key? That would sure 'protect us' now, wouldn't it? :-((( What could we do? AS Reprogram the flash (1) How would you reprogram if reprogramming required the M$ key? (2) Even if you did, you have broken an encrypted object, and would be subject to Draconian penalties, which I'm sure M$ would pursue diligently with their legal army. Sounds risky, unless I'm missing something. -- rikonamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
Microsoft moves to integrate Windows with BIOS Matthew Broersma ZDNet UK October 03, 2003, 17:25 BST A deal with BIOS maker Phoenix Technologies would allow the operating system to directly control hardware. It also raises concerns over who controls the software in PCs Microsoft has expanded its relationship with BIOS maker Phoenix Technologies in a deal designed to more closely integrate the basic building blocks of the PC with the Windows operating system. Link: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39116902,00.htm Looks like our next target is this Phoenix Technologies. Lock and load, people. -- HaywireMac Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org ++ Mandrake HowTo's More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org ++ If we do not change our direction we are likely to end up where we are headed. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Thought MS was scary enough? Nope.
Hello HaywireMac, Saturday, October 4, 2003, 8:06:30 AM, you wrote: H A deal with BIOS maker Phoenix Technologies would allow the H operating system to directly control hardware. Hardware control is the holy grail. The US gov't tried it back a bit by trying to get a chip in most everything electronic. Public howl finally defeated that, but it was close. It was clear that the media giants would try again. I guess it's easier to just go to M$ and have them do it. Some really bad parts from the article: making it easier for system administrators to remotely monitor the hardware configurations of their systems and allow better control of unauthorised devices connected to a system. This gives total control over 'your' hardware. closer integration of Windows with PC hardware. BIOS will probably only support M$. would allow content providers to identify which PCs and devices were authorised to play particular files. Got linux? Forget playing any commercial media. A great way for M$ to try and stamp out linux. Consumer electronics makers are particularly interested in the technology. Our work is cut out for us. We HAVE to speak up, and LOUDLY. As before, let them know we will NOT buy such hardware. H Looks like our next target is this Phoenix Technologies. Try to spread the word: check carefully and NEVER buy any computer with a Phoenix BIOS. I thought Palladium was bad. This is ridiculous It is the same chip-in-everything idea that was defeated before, but cast in a slightly different light. This time, unfortunately, it has the might of M$ behind it. Bad news. On the other hand, it might p*ss off enough people that linux will begin to look much more attractive. M$ probably realizes this too, and might do things to make our life difficult (again, authorization control is the key). -- rikonamailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
