Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Tue, 2003-06-24 at 00:14, Kaj Haulrich wrote: snip There! - I knew we'd flush out a real historian eventually. Thanks for the correction. DougB The full quotation is: Wenn ich Kultur höre ... entsichere ich meinen Browning. It comes from Hanns Johst's most famous play, Schlageter (first performed in April 1933, for Hitler's birthday) and occurs in Act 1, Scene 1. The character who says the line is called Thiemann. This is usually translated as Whenever I hear the word culture... I release the safety-catch of my Browning! From the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations entry for Johst, Hanns (1890 - 1978) German playwright. HTH Kaj Haulrich (who happens to trust IBM). Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 18:18:01 +0800 Frankie [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: well then better line me up as well... IBM has a vested interest in linux, has greatly contributed to it.. and are a big part of the OS/FS purge when it comes ah, Stephen always said I was no good at sarcasm... ya, that's all I was saying from the start. IBM is a business, so always remember that they will make business oriented decisions. Right now they have a very strong business interest in Linux. They could wipe out MS and Sun just like that. Sun is hurting, MS is hurting, IBM could take all the cards. But will it always be in their interest to support the GPL? -- + Joe Hill + Registered Linux user #282046 + Homepage: http://nodex.sytes.net + ICQ# 279518458 + Do what thou wilt, this shall be the + whole of the law. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Mon, 2003-06-23 at 06:25, Ian Trickett wrote: I very much doubt it http://www.browning.co.uk/ Ian Herman Goering said When I hear the word 'culture', I reach for my Browning. Richard __ Me, too. Schmeissner ? or would that be an anachronism? DougB Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Monday 23 June 2003 11:10 am, Douglas Bainbridge wrote: snip Me, too. Schmeissner ? or would that be an anachronism? /snip *When I hear the word culture, I reach for my revolver.* The full quotation is: Wenn ich Kultur hre ... entsichere ich meinen Browning. It comes from Hanns Johst's most famous play, Schlageter (first performed in April 1933, for Hitler's birthday) and occurs in Act 1, Scene 1. The character who says the line is called Thiemann. This is usually translated as Whenever I hear the word culture... I release the safety-catch of my Browning! From the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations entry for Johst, Hanns (1890 - 1978) German playwright. HTH Kaj Haulrich (who happens to trust IBM). -- Registered Linux user # 214073 at http://counter.li.org Powered by Linux - Mandrake 9.1 - kernel 2.4.21 Brought to you from a 100 % Micro$oft-free computer. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [OT] Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Sat, 2003-06-21 at 17:04, Michael Scottaline wrote: On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 16:28:50 -0400 JoeHill [EMAIL PROTECTED] insightfully noted: On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:38:06 -0600 FemmeFatale [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Joes makes me thinks Gun nut. you misunderstand, I have a certain sympathy with the individualist who resists authority, and I recognize that *sometimes* it is necessary to take up arms against the imposition of an immoral authority. For example, I see nothing wrong with what the Zapatistas did in Mexico, or what Che and Fidel did to Batista and his band of criminal thugs in Cuba. In retrospect though, tough to consider Fidel an individiualist, no??? I often think that Che was partially motivated to leave by the way in which he saw Fidel moving. My guess is that there are many individualists in Cuba today in hiding, or rotting in prisons :( As some one who's family was in what is now Miami, before it was an army fort, and having a close retrospect on current Cuban Socity, I can say that I do not think Castro was all that wrong. he did manage to rid (with out the mass murder his opponents would claim, and would have pursued) his island of an entire bourgeois class, and while the bourgeois took a great deal of wealth with them (that they all claim to a person did not come with them , but suddenly showed up) he did also manage to surpass the USA in literacy rates, from a populace that had one of the lowest rates of literacy when he took power. not an easy feat to eliminate the bourgeois, educate the masses and redistribute the wealth in such a manner that the bourgeoisie are the only ones upset. Especially if you consider that the bourgeoisie were not killed, but exiled to a better place with more wealth. Even more amazing when you consider that 99% of the class that is now exiled claim to have been (the children of) great war heroes. with that many great war heroes, it must have been a very tough war to have anyone left to exile. I might be tempted to argue that the Exile-Cubanismo society allows and encourages and/or tolerates some things that are so very wrong as to justify almost all of Castro's actions. how do you end corruption in a society that accepts bribery as greasing the wheels? even in Police matters? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
I very much doubt it http://www.browning.co.uk/ Ian On June 21, 2003 07:14 am, RichardA wrote: On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:22:43 -0400, JoeHill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:21:34 -0400 Thomas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: but I get concerned that any time the government gets involved One of my favourite quotes, I still have no idea where it came from: When I hear the word 'government', I reach for my gun. Herman Goering said When I hear the word 'culture', I reach for my Browning. Richard Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Sat, 2003-06-21 at 02:22, JoeHill wrote: On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:21:34 -0400 Thomas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: but I get concerned that any time the government gets involved One of my favourite quotes, I still have no idea where it came from: When I hear the word 'government', I reach for my gun. To be pedantically accurate, the original is When I hear the word 'culture', I reach for my gun. by one of the Nazis. I think it was the Brownshirt leader, not Goebbels, and he used the actual name of a German gun - you historians can put me right. However, Tom's/Joe's quote/misquote is a better version, IMHO DougB Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:22:43 -0400 JoeHill [EMAIL PROTECTED] insightfully noted: On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:21:34 -0400 Thomas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: but I get concerned that any time the government gets involved One of my favourite quotes, I still have no idea where it came from: When I hear the word 'government', I reach for my gun. == I believe it was Herman Goering who said, When I hear the word 'culture' I reach for my gun. Might have been Joseph Goebbels shrug ;) Mike -- The man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life --Muhammad Ali Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:22:43 -0400, JoeHill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:21:34 -0400 Thomas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: but I get concerned that any time the government gets involved One of my favourite quotes, I still have no idea where it came from: When I hear the word 'government', I reach for my gun. Herman Goering said When I hear the word 'culture', I reach for my Browning. Richard -- Registered Linux user 246658 at http://counter.li.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:38:06 -0600 FemmeFatale [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Joes makes me thinks Gun nut. you misunderstand, I have a certain sympathy with the individualist who resists authority, and I recognize that *sometimes* it is necessary to take up arms against the imposition of an immoral authority. For example, I see nothing wrong with what the Zapatistas did in Mexico, or what Che and Fidel did to Batista and his band of criminal thugs in Cuba. Of course the other is offensive. The guy was a fscking Nazi! -- + Joe Hill + Registered Linux user #282046 + Homepage: http://nodex.sytes.net + ICQ# 279518458 + Do what thou wilt, this shall be the + whole of the law. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[OT] Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 16:28:50 -0400 JoeHill [EMAIL PROTECTED] insightfully noted: On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:38:06 -0600 FemmeFatale [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Joes makes me thinks Gun nut. you misunderstand, I have a certain sympathy with the individualist who resists authority, and I recognize that *sometimes* it is necessary to take up arms against the imposition of an immoral authority. For example, I see nothing wrong with what the Zapatistas did in Mexico, or what Che and Fidel did to Batista and his band of criminal thugs in Cuba. In retrospect though, tough to consider Fidel an individiualist, no??? I often think that Che was partially motivated to leave by the way in which he saw Fidel moving. My guess is that there are many individualists in Cuba today in hiding, or rotting in prisons :( Of course the other is offensive. The guy was a fscking Nazi! === Definitely NOT an individualist :) Best, Mike -- The man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life --Muhammad Ali Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
At 04:28 PM 6/21/2003 -0400, you wrote: On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:38:06 -0600 FemmeFatale [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Joes makes me thinks Gun nut. you misunderstand, I have a certain sympathy with the individualist who resists authority, and I recognize that *sometimes* it is necessary to take up arms against the imposition of an immoral authority. For example, I see nothing wrong with what the Zapatistas did in Mexico, or what Che and Fidel did to Batista and his band of criminal thugs in Cuba. Of course the other is offensive. The guy was a fscking Nazi! -- + Joe Hill Works for me. Understood now. - FemmeFatale, aka The Skirt Good Decisions Your boss Made: We'll do as you suggest and go with Linux. I've always liked that character from Peanuts. - Source: Dilbert Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [OT] Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Saturday 21 June 2003 02:04 pm, Michael Scottaline wrote: On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 16:28:50 -0400 JoeHill [EMAIL PROTECTED] insightfully noted: On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 13:38:06 -0600 FemmeFatale [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Joes makes me thinks Gun nut. you misunderstand, I have a certain sympathy with the individualist who resists authority, and I recognize that *sometimes* it is necessary to take up arms against the imposition of an immoral authority. For example, I see nothing wrong with what the Zapatistas did in Mexico, or what Che and Fidel did to Batista and his band of criminal thugs in Cuba. In retrospect though, tough to consider Fidel an individiualist, no??? I often think that Che was partially motivated to leave by the way in which he saw Fidel moving. My guess is that there are many individualists in Cuba today in hiding, or rotting in prisons :( Of course the other is offensive. The guy was a fscking Nazi! === Definitely NOT an individualist :) Best, Mike Speaking of revolution did anyone ever read Come October byA. E. van Vogt ? (I think that was the author) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [OT] Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 17:04:20 -0400 Michael Scottaline [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: I often think that Che was partially motivated to leave by the way in which he saw Fidel moving. absolutely, but you also have to understand that when the U.S. made it clear that would do everything they could to get rid of the new regime and reimpose imperialist rule, they gave Fidel's agenda more legitimacy. It's sad in the same way that the Russian revolution went the way it did. Initially, the Trotskyists were the moving force, but the activities of the West gave the Leninists the excuse they needed to impose something much different and obviously much less democratic than was intended. ie., not at all. Lenin was *not* a Marxist, Trotsky was, same in Cuba. -- + Joe Hill + Registered Linux user #282046 + Homepage: http://nodex.sytes.net + ICQ# 279518458 + Do what thou wilt, this shall be the + whole of the law. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
To be pedantically accurate, the original is When I hear the word 'culture', I reach for my gun. by one of the Nazis. I think it was the Brownshirt leader, not Goebbels, and he used the actual name of a German gun - you historians can put me right. However, Tom's/Joe's quote/misquote is a better version, IMHO DougB Joes makes me thinks Gun nut. The other Fascism...both of which bother me deeply. Please define Gun nut -- Composed on a 100% Microsoft and Windows free computer with Mandrake Linux 9.1 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Saturday 21 June 2003 05:41 pm, FemmeFatale wrote: At 07:14 PM 6/21/2003 -0500, you wrote: To be pedantically accurate, the original is When I hear the word 'culture', I reach for my gun. by one of the Nazis. I think it was the Brownshirt leader, not Goebbels, and he used the actual name of a German gun - you historians can put me right. However, Tom's/Joe's quote/misquote is a better version, IMHO DougB Joes makes me thinks Gun nut. The other Fascism...both of which bother me deeply. Please define Gun nut -- Sorry no... not on this list. That discussion belongs on the OT one...which i'm trying to get off. Honestly the debate isnt worth the bandwith I'm not into opening that can of worms in shit. Sorry. You want me to define it you can email me offlist... Till then I refuse to let this thread go any further down that road by adding fuel. I shoulda thought before i typed on this one. I didn't. My oops. - FemmeFatale, aka The Skirt stepped into that one didn't you kid ;-) Good Decisions Your boss Made: We'll do as you suggest and go with Linux. I've always liked that character from Peanuts. - Source: Dilbert Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2136285,00.html Quote: A UK IT industry body backed by Microsoft, IBM, Intel, BAE Systems and other high-tech heavyweights has urged the UK government to show restraint in its use of open-source software, particularly software covered by the General Public License. and apparently we can't trust Sun either. They're in on this whole SCO thing: http://www.pclinuxonline.com/modules.php?name=Newsfile=articlesid=6976 Seems SCO's filing annual filing with the SEC exposed some interesting info, to whit: We initiated the SCOsource effort to review the status of these licensing and sublicensing agreements and to identify others in the industry that may be currently using our intellectual property without obtaining the necessary licenses. *[this is where it gets interesting]* This effort resulted in the execution of two license agreements during the April 30, 2003 quarter. The first of these licenses was with a long-time licensee of the UNIX source code which is a major participant in the UNIX industry and was aclean-up license to cover items that were outside the scope of the initial license. The second license was to Microsoft Corporation(Microsoft), and covers Microsoft's UNIX compatibility products, subject to certain specified limitations. These license agreements will be typical of those we expect to enter into with developers, manufacturers, and distributors of operating systems in that they are non-exclusive, perpetual, royalty-free, paid up licenses to utilize the UNIX source code, including the right to sublicense that code. The proprietary boys will *never* accept the GPL, and that's a fact jack. -- + Joe Hill + Registered Linux user #282046 + Homepage: http://nodex.sytes.net + ICQ# 279518458 + I'm even lethal when I'm unarmed, + cuz I'm louder than a bomb! + - Chuck D, Public Enemy Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
IBM's part is obscure at best. What other evidence do you have that IBM is a bad guy? Miark On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 09:12:35 -0400 JoeHill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2136285,00.html A UK IT industry body backed by Microsoft, IBM, Intel, BAE Systems and other high-tech heavyweights has urged the UK government to show restraint in its use of open-source software, particularly software covered by the General Public License. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Friday 20 Jun 2003 2:12 pm, JoeHill wrote: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2136285,00.html Quote: A UK IT industry body backed by Microsoft, IBM, Intel, BAE Systems and other high-tech heavyweights has urged the UK government to show restraint in its use of open-source software, particularly software covered by the General Public License. There's 1,000 companies in that body, all with a vested interest in royalties. IBM probably doesn't have much of a voice there. But I remember when IBM were the big bad guys, while MS were just riding on their coat-tails. IMHO, the GPL is becoming difficult. It's so complex it would take a lawyer to work out what it really means. When you screw your brain around it enough you find it will probably allow what you want to do, but it takes some mental strain and it isn't a sure thing. That makes it a hard sell to management types, and an easy pot-shot for the entrenched pundits. BSD is a lot simpler. Maybe we need a license with the effective meaning of the GPL, but which isn't weighed down with the philosophical baggage. It would be nice to have a 100% service oriented income-model across the board, but is it necessary, achievable or desirable? In the worst case, if Microsoft dropped IIS and distributed Apache with Windows would the Open-Source movement die? I don't think so. OK so MS could try to extend and destroy, but if we have proved that Open-Source is a better development model than proprietry, shouldn't we put our money where our mouths are? If and when the GPL is tested in court, I have less than 100% certainty that the precident will say what we want it to say. It's so complex an expensive lawyer could twist it somewhat. Anyway, (IMHO) GPL is probably not right for the UK gov. I would have thought public-domain would be a better fit. -- Richard Urwin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
(Disclaimer: IANAL) The GPL is significantly less complex than most other software licenses. The complexity is (supposedly) necessary from a legal standpoint. For some reason 'You are free to do whatever you want with this software, however if you distribute it you must distribute the source code with it and any changes to the code must be distributed under these terms.' doesn't cut it from a legal standpoint. My guess it is lawyers defending their jobs. If legal contracts were written this clearly, we wouldn't need so many lawyers... Sort of like programmers writing obfuscated code - Only worse than most Perl hackers could ever imagine. -Original Message- From: Richard Urwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:06:06 +0100 Subject: Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM On Friday 20 Jun 2003 2:12 pm, JoeHill wrote: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2136285,00.html IMHO, the GPL is becoming difficult. It's so complex it would take a lawyer to work out what it really means. When you screw your brain around it enough you find it will probably allow what you want to do, but it takes some mental strain and it isn't a sure thing. That makes it a hard sell to management types, and an easy pot-shot for the entrenched pundits. BSD is a lot simpler. Maybe we need a license with the effective meaning of the GPL, but which isn't weighed down with the philosophical baggage. It would be nice to have a 100% service oriented income-model across the board, but is it necessary, achievable or desirable? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:53:56 -0500 Jim Dawson [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: The GPL is significantly less complex than most other software licenses. The complexity is (supposedly) necessary from a legal standpoint. For some reason 'You are free to do whatever you want with this software, however if you distribute it you must distribute the source code with it and any changes to the code must be distributed under these terms.' doesn't cut it from a legal standpoint. My guess it is lawyers defending their jobs. If legal contracts were written this clearly, we wouldn't need so many lawyers... hmmm, why is quoting not working for me anymore anyhow, well said! -- + Joe Hill + Registered Linux user #282046 + Homepage: http://nodex.sytes.net + ICQ# 279518458 + Do what thou wilt, this shall be the + whole of the law. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:26:23 -0400 Miark [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: IBM's part is obscure at best. What other evidence do you have that IBM is a bad guy? all i'm saying is don't think IBM is going to be our knight in shining armour, they could end up being just as antagonistic to the GPL as anyone else. btw, sorry, my quoting thing seems to be broken... -- + Joe Hill + Registered Linux user #282046 + Homepage: http://nodex.sytes.net + ICQ# 279518458 + Do what thou wilt, this shall be the + whole of the law. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Friday 20 June 2003 09:12 am, JoeHill wrote: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2136285,00.html Quote: A UK IT industry body backed by Microsoft, IBM, Intel, BAE Systems and other high-tech heavyweights has urged the UK government to show restraint in its use of open-source software, particularly software covered by the General Public License. OK, I read this article and I don't really get the same thing out of it. Such as what this part says: Intellect, which was formed from the merger of the Computer Services and Software Association and the Federation of the Electronics Industry last year, and represents about 1,000 UK IT companies. IBM may only be in it for what prestige it buys them, obviously the group does not represent IBM's views. Most likely it is the majority view, which may or may not be right. Anyway, furthermore, I think what they're saying is legitimate. The government wants to require the GPL in its software contracts, and this group is saying that for government contracts this may be a bad idea. They didn't state it directly, at least not that I saw, but it would stand to reason that you don't want critical software to be publicly available so that would-be terrorists or crackers can read the source code and find a way in. While I applaud the UK attempting to stand behind the GPL like that, I think this group in this instance may be right. and apparently we can't trust Sun either. They're in on this whole SCO thing: http://www.pclinuxonline.com/modules.php?name=Newsfile=articlesid=6976 Seems SCO's filing annual filing with the SEC exposed some interesting info, to whit: We initiated the SCOsource effort to review the status of these licensing and sublicensing agreements and to identify others in the industry that may be currently using our intellectual property without obtaining the necessary licenses. *[this is where it gets interesting]* This effort resulted in the execution of two license agreements during the April 30, 2003 quarter. The first of these licenses was with a long-time licensee of the UNIX source code which is a major participant in the UNIX industry and was aclean-up license to cover items that were outside the scope of the initial license. The second license was to Microsoft Corporation(Microsoft), and covers Microsoft's UNIX compatibility products, subject to certain specified limitations. These license agreements will be typical of those we expect to enter into with developers, manufacturers, and distributors of operating systems in that they are non-exclusive, perpetual, royalty-free, paid up licenses to utilize the UNIX source code, including the right to sublicense that code. OK, I don't get this one. I read the article and I see your quote here, and nowhere does it mention Sun's involvement. The only Sun involvement I see is in the paragraph above this one where it mentions Sun's Solaris. Now that I look at it again, I see where you're going license with a long-time licensee, but you cannot infer that that is Sun without some sort of proof. Besides, even if it is, it may be for good reason on Sun's part. But this is my 2 cents worth. Tom Williams Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
JoeHill wrote: On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 17:06:02 -0400 Thomas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: They didn't state it directly, at least not that I saw, but it would stand to reason that you don't want critical software to be publicly available so that would-be terrorists or crackers can read the source code and find a way in. This theory has been thoroughly debunked. Closed source software is just as vulnerable, if not more so (just see MS as one particularly egregious example). Not only that, but it is quite clear that the response time for closing vulnerablilities in the Open Source side is a fraction of that for proprietary. Open Source coders are also more likely to discover *potential* vulnerabilities *before* they make it to production because of the far superior oversight. Why else would the NSA and the Department of Homeland Security be using Linux? A more cogent case for close-source software would be something like a missile targetting system. It's not that you don't want the enemy to get into it - you don't want them to get their hands on it and be able to use it themselves. Sir Robin -- Some guy breaking into a government computer system and wreaking havoc makes for a more interesting movie plot than some guy writing device drivers. It's hard to work in a good 10-minutes car chase scene with some guy who writes device drivers... - tjc, post to LWN Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Univeritesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Friday 20 June 2003 06:01 pm, JoeHill wrote: This theory has been thoroughly debunked. Closed source software is just as vulnerable, if not more so (just see MS as one particularly egregious example). Not only that, but it is quite clear that the response time for closing vulnerablilities in the Open Source side is a fraction of that for proprietary. Open Source coders are also more likely to discover *potential* vulnerabilities *before* they make it to production because of the far superior oversight. I agree to a point. Yes, its not as vulnerable and it is probably safe and its been gone over well before its been put into production, but holes do happen even with the best of programmers and the best of software. I'm not saying that Closed source is better, only that why give a group or a nut, as the case may be, a leg up by showing them how it all works. At least with closed software they have to discover that on their own. All I'm saying is that I happen to agree that there are instances where perhaps the GPL is not necessary. As someone else has already pointed out, the GPL is perhaps overly complicated and that in and of its self could perhaps be enough to suggest the government steer clear of it. How do you go about suing the government over their violation of the GPL? Yes, it can be done, but in some instances at what cost? Tom Williams Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 19:21:29 -0400 Thomas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: I agree to a point. Yes, its not as vulnerable and it is probably safe and its been gone over well before its been put into production, but holes do happen even with the best of programmers and the best of software. I'm not saying that Closed source is better, only that why give a group or a nut, as the case may be, a leg up by showing them how it all works. At least with closed software they have to discover that on their own. Not difficult. Anyone with the knowledge to hack will have the knowledge to take apart any software, closed or open. If someone *really* wants in, they'll get in, there's nothing you or I or anyone can do about it. But closed source is worse in this case, since we may not even be aware that they *are* in until the software vendor decides to let us know about it. Remember, they have an interest in their software appearing to be secure as much as they do in it actually being secure, whereas open source has no such conflict of interest. All I'm saying is that I happen to agree that there are instances where perhaps the GPL is not necessary. As someone else has already pointed out, the GPL is perhaps overly complicated and that in and of its self could perhaps be enough to suggest the government steer clear of it. How do you go about suing the government over their violation of the GPL? Yes, it can be done, but in some instances at what cost? Of course the GPL is not the be all and end all. Nothing is. But it is a model for a new way of looking at software as a public resource rather than a commodity to be bought and sold. If information is allowed to become a commodity in the truest sense of the word, then the internet and information technology will become nothing more than better TV sets with more invasive marketing and egregious manipulation. -- + Joe Hill + Registered Linux user #282046 + Homepage: http://nodex.sytes.net + ICQ# 279518458 + Do what thou wilt, this shall be the + whole of the law. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
Joe; Did you happen to read the Related Articles at the bottom of the page? I get the sneaky suspicion that IBM is either playing both sides, or it's another case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Here's the story I'm talking about. Read the last paragraph. http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2133002,00.html Getting a little confusing, don't you think? Lanman Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Friday 20 June 2003 08:36 pm, JoeHill wrote: Of course the GPL is not the be all and end all. Nothing is. But it is a model for a new way of looking at software as a public resource rather than a commodity to be bought and sold. If information is allowed to become a commodity in the truest sense of the word, then the internet and information technology will become nothing more than better TV sets with more invasive marketing and egregious manipulation. Agreed! The other real concern is that I have a problem with a government, any government delving into something like the GPL. I've seen too many times where in this country (US) the best laid plans of lawmakers goes wildly wrong and what was once a good idea turns into a horrible monster of a mistake. This is most likely not the case with this instance, but my concerns are still there. I too don't want to see information become a commodity, but I get concerned that any time the government gets involved that that's exactly what they turn it into. A scenario I can see (and again, I don't expect this in this case, its just a, perhaps paranoid, scenario.) is the government uses software under the GPL and then decides that it can't, for whatever reason it sees fit, allow the source to be released and subsequently deems it illegal and things get decidedly worse from that point. Granted, a very bad case, but considering what I've seen various governments do already, I wouldn't put it past anyone of a number of governments, including the US from doing something like that. OK, so I'm a little paranoid, but with good reason, I think! :) Tom Williams Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On 20 Jun 2003 20:49:18 -0400 Lanman [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Joe; Did you happen to read the Related Articles at the bottom of the page? I get the sneaky suspicion that IBM is either playing both sides, or it's another case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Here's the story I'm talking about. Read the last paragraph. http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2133002,00.html Getting a little confusing, don't you think? It must have changed, the links are now about Red Hat and the US government taking on Linux for its security infrastructure or something. As for playing both sides, that's one of the preeminent characteristics of post-modern capitalism. Read The New Industrial State, JK Galbraith, capitalism is no longer about competition or innovation, it's about risk management and optimization and maintenance of profits, ie. Cover Your Ass. Hey, why do you think huge corporations donate money to both political parties in an election? They don't give a rat's ass who wins, either way they've got a President in their pocket. -- + Joe Hill + Registered Linux user #282046 + Homepage: http://nodex.sytes.net + ICQ# 279518458 + Do what thou wilt, this shall be the + whole of the law. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
On Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:21:34 -0400 Thomas Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: but I get concerned that any time the government gets involved One of my favourite quotes, I still have no idea where it came from: When I hear the word 'government', I reach for my gun. -- + Joe Hill + Registered Linux user #282046 + Homepage: http://nodex.sytes.net + ICQ# 279518458 + Do what thou wilt, this shall be the + whole of the law. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
Ah, I see a fellow cynic on the list! Lanman Remember,...Just because we're paranoid, doesn't mean people aren't trying to kill us! On Fri, 2003-06-20 at 21:17, JoeHill wrote: On 20 Jun 2003 20:49:18 -0400 Lanman [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: Joe; Did you happen to read the Related Articles at the bottom of the page? I get the sneaky suspicion that IBM is either playing both sides, or it's another case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Here's the story I'm talking about. Read the last paragraph. http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2133002,00.html Getting a little confusing, don't you think? It must have changed, the links are now about Red Hat and the US government taking on Linux for its security infrastructure or something. As for playing both sides, that's one of the preeminent characteristics of post-modern capitalism. Read The New Industrial State, JK Galbraith, capitalism is no longer about competition or innovation, it's about risk management and optimization and maintenance of profits, ie. Cover Your Ass. Hey, why do you think huge corporations donate money to both political parties in an election? They don't give a rat's ass who wins, either way they've got a President in their pocket. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
I agree with that, IBM are a commercial company that has pumped alot of money into linux and OSS in general,,, and they are making money from it.. I doubt they would limit its growth.. I suspect being a backer of that company is in no way a reflection of their beliefs.. IBM have shown a great deal of confidence in linux. and no fear.. a vast difference in approach to M$'s approach.. which is to view it as a threat and kill it by whatever means necessary.. I think they backed the company to promote the industry in general, they probably don't agree with the companies stance in this industry but don't want to ostrasize themselves from the rest of the industry.. rgds Franki -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thomas Williams Sent: Saturday, 21 June 2003 5:06 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM On Friday 20 June 2003 09:12 am, JoeHill wrote: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2136285,00.html Quote: A UK IT industry body backed by Microsoft, IBM, Intel, BAE Systems and other high-tech heavyweights has urged the UK government to show restraint in its use of open-source software, particularly software covered by the General Public License. OK, I read this article and I don't really get the same thing out of it. Such as what this part says: Intellect, which was formed from the merger of the Computer Services and Software Association and the Federation of the Electronics Industry last year, and represents about 1,000 UK IT companies. IBM may only be in it for what prestige it buys them, obviously the group does not represent IBM's views. Most likely it is the majority view, which may or may not be right. Anyway, furthermore, I think what they're saying is legitimate. The government wants to require the GPL in its software contracts, and this group is saying that for government contracts this may be a bad idea. They didn't state it directly, at least not that I saw, but it would stand to reason that you don't want critical software to be publicly available so that would-be terrorists or crackers can read the source code and find a way in. While I applaud the UK attempting to stand behind the GPL like that, I think this group in this instance may be right. and apparently we can't trust Sun either. They're in on this whole SCO thing: http://www.pclinuxonline.com/modules.php?name=Newsfile=articlesid=6976 Seems SCO's filing annual filing with the SEC exposed some interesting info, to whit: We initiated the SCOsource effort to review the status of these licensing and sublicensing agreements and to identify others in the industry that may be currently using our intellectual property without obtaining the necessary licenses. *[this is where it gets interesting]* This effort resulted in the execution of two license agreements during the April 30, 2003 quarter. The first of these licenses was with a long-time licensee of the UNIX source code which is a major participant in the UNIX industry and was aclean-up license to cover items that were outside the scope of the initial license. The second license was to Microsoft Corporation(Microsoft), and covers Microsoft's UNIX compatibility products, subject to certain specified limitations. These license agreements will be typical of those we expect to enter into with developers, manufacturers, and distributors of operating systems in that they are non-exclusive, perpetual, royalty-free, paid up licenses to utilize the UNIX source code, including the right to sublicense that code. OK, I don't get this one. I read the article and I see your quote here, and nowhere does it mention Sun's involvement. The only Sun involvement I see is in the paragraph above this one where it mentions Sun's Solaris. Now that I look at it again, I see where you're going license with a long-time licensee, but you cannot infer that that is Sun without some sort of proof. Besides, even if it is, it may be for good reason on Sun's part. But this is my 2 cents worth. Tom Williams Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
glad you mentioned that.. I was about to... quote IBM supplied the server hardware for the system and also acted as prime contractor for Belmin, the supplier responsible for the implementation of EROS software -- based on IBM's Informix U2 product -- onto the Linux open-source architecture. Cable Wireless provided the network infrastructure and will support the hardware element of the new system. Rebecca George, director, UK government business, IBM UK, said: By selecting Linux for Purchase and Pay, OGC is benefiting from the value for money that open-source software can offer government IT projects. /quote I don't think IBM being a backer of the lead story is in any way a reflection of their stance.. after all, its a body of companies and it probably came down to a vote, and they were outvoted... rgds Franki -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lanman Sent: Saturday, 21 June 2003 8:49 AM To: Newbie List Subject: Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM Joe; Did you happen to read the Related Articles at the bottom of the page? I get the sneaky suspicion that IBM is either playing both sides, or it's another case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Here's the story I'm talking about. Read the last paragraph. http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2133002,00.html Getting a little confusing, don't you think? Lanman Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Told ya, don't trust IBM
Lanman wrote: Ah, I see a fellow cynic on the list! Try realist. I'm right along with you. Lanman Remember,...Just because we're paranoid, doesn't mean people aren't trying to kill us! -- Brant Fitzsimmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. -Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
