Re: FW: [newbie] curious ....
I just got around to this post after going through my email. Just wanted to make a few quick comments. Windows9x CAN survive with out IE, but IE is there way in. That's how they keep tabs on what's going on the machine, and that's how they update the OS. Ever wonder why an update for IE is 17-20 MG? About 70% of IE is a 'Service Pack' for Windows9x. There are about 2,000+ registry tweaks hacks when installing IE 5. That's how they really update and modify the OS. However MS doesn't want that to be public knowledge. MS contridicts themselves and render slaps to their own collective faces, but they have a department of lawyers to point out something to somebody else, or cover it up with minimal damage. Because of which they've been almost untouchable. The only company that could really go after MS, and do any damage, has no interest in doing so. And that would be Xerox. tdh -- T. Holmes - UNIXTECHS.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Real Men Us Vi! Uptime: 12:56PM up 1 day, 1:17, 7 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.02, 0.00 | MS, I must admit, did a great job of putting a computer on every desk in | every home (Bill Gates). In the more developed nations, this is mostly a | reality, hence the saturated market that has been a (one of many) cause of | the technology market slump. It can be argued that the markets in poorer | nations are mostly saturated as well, since most people cannot afford to pay | the Microsoft Tax on top of their hardware (if they can even afford that). | | Now is the time for Windows to move over, for it has outlived its usefulness. | A key to the revival of the global ecomomy, IMHO, is cheaper software -- | exemplified by GNU/Linux. This in turn creates cheaper hardware, since nobody | will be forced to pay the Microsoft Tax. Cheaper computers mean more people | can afford to buy them (especially in poorer nations), and companies will be | getting better value for money (what better value is there than free?). | People have computers, but nothing truly useful to run on them. WinDOS is a | burden on computer systems, slowing them down. People have grown more | accustomed to computers, and many would like to take the next step to | something better -- GNU/Linux. It may not be there quite yet, but it's | definitely getting there. | | -- | Sridhar Dhanapalan. | There are two major products that come from Berkeley: | LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. | -- Jeremy S. Anderson | Your Fortune The Computer made me do it.
Re: FW: [newbie] curious ....
On Sunday, Jul 01, 2001, Jose Mirles wrote: Also, if Ms are so full of innovation, why is hotmail (a microsoft service) still using freebsd servers? and why has microsoft admitted nicking freebsd code for their own apps?? MS is full of innovation. Thanks to them millions upon million of users can now use a PC. OS2 didn't do that, neither did UNIX or Linux. It was Windows 3.1 that started it and Windows 95 that really made PC's sell. I may not like MS, but I can not denied their kudos. Well, technically, we all know they stole the idea of Windows from Apple (which was based on the idea of the mouse from Xerox)... they just have a much better marketing department. -- Paul Cox paul at coxcentral dot com Kernel: 2.4.3-20mdk-win4lin-pcox - Uptime: 1 day 23 hours 24 minutes.
RE: FW: [newbie] curious ....
On Monday, July 02, 2001 3:46 AM, Franki [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: oh yeah, I meant to respond to this as well.. MS is full of innovation. Thanks to them millions upon million of users can now use a PC. OS2 didn't do that, neither did UNIX or Linux. It was Windows 3.1 that started it and Windows 95 that really made PC's sell. I may not like MS, but I can not denied their kudos. thats not innovation, its marketing MS's marketing companys costs them a half a billion a year, and they earn every cent.. Apparently and for the sake of the lawyers allegedly the 95 in Win95 wasn't just the year of release, it was also the percentage of M$ total investment in the product (including development) that was spent on marketing.
Re: FW: [newbie] curious ....
Take a look at http://www.98lite.net. It can install Windows without IE, or strip IE away from an installed system. It can even replace the Windows Explorer file manager in 98 and ME with their 95 equivalent (which is far less bloated and more stable). Of course, MS don't like this (it was apparently used in court by the DOJ to prove that IE *wasn't* an integral part of the OS as they said it was), and using it will void your EULA. If you *must* use Windos (I still keep it around just in case I mess up Mandrake), 98lite is *the* best way to stabilise and speed it up. On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 19:55, steve campbell wrote: snip for sanity's sake I have one thing to say if MS don't force ie on people. prove that to me by installeding ME without it. Pratt. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson
Re: FW: [newbie] curious ....
On Mon, 2 Jul 2001 12:45, Franki wrote: oh yeah, I meant to respond to this as well.. MS is full of innovation. Thanks to them millions upon million of users can now use a PC. OS2 didn't do that, neither did UNIX or Linux. It was Windows 3.1 that started it and Windows 95 that really made PC's sell. I may not like MS, but I can not denied their kudos. thats not innovation, its marketing MS's marketing companys costs them a half a billion a year, and they earn every cent.. MS, I must admit, did a great job of putting a computer on every desk in every home (Bill Gates). In the more developed nations, this is mostly a reality, hence the saturated market that has been a (one of many) cause of the technology market slump. It can be argued that the markets in poorer nations are mostly saturated as well, since most people cannot afford to pay the Microsoft Tax on top of their hardware (if they can even afford that). Now is the time for Windows to move over, for it has outlived its usefulness. A key to the revival of the global ecomomy, IMHO, is cheaper software -- exemplified by GNU/Linux. This in turn creates cheaper hardware, since nobody will be forced to pay the Microsoft Tax. Cheaper computers mean more people can afford to buy them (especially in poorer nations), and companies will be getting better value for money (what better value is there than free?). People have computers, but nothing truly useful to run on them. WinDOS is a burden on computer systems, slowing them down. People have grown more accustomed to computers, and many would like to take the next step to something better -- GNU/Linux. It may not be there quite yet, but it's definitely getting there. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson
Re: Re: FW: [newbie] curious ....
snip for sanity's sake I have one thing to say if MS don't force ie on people. prove that to me by installeding ME without it. Pratt. M$ is beyond that. Even if (Mini)ME can be installed without IE, most Microsoft apps (e.g. Office 2000 and XP) require it at least for online help. No, your honor. We aren't leveraging our OS and office software monopolies to monopolize the browser market. Honest!.
Fw: [newbie] curious ....
Even though we are all newto Linux, don't you think we owe it to the Linux community in general to read up on it and see what it is all about, instead of just jumping in and then thrashing it because it isn't Windows? Don't misunderstand I am very grateful for all the work that has been done for love of Linux and the community free of charge. I'm not thrashing it at all as I think it has wonderful potiential. I'm just afraid that too many in the developement fields are holding back and resisting change at the wrong time. The windoze XP messup is the perfect opportunity to shift this thing into high gear and offer users another option if there ever was one. But for that to happen you have to have something to offer that is easy to use for the average person. It's about numbers and marketing not old school idealisms. Tazmun
FW: [newbie] curious ....
couple of little points I would add to that... years ago when the www was new, netscape developed a pretty not browser and called it navigator.. ms then came up with IE and in order to get rid of NS, they bundled it with Windows, so that people who already had a browser would use that instead of downloading one,, it worked They are doing the same now to AOL and others with instant messaging and media player.. do you really want to lose winamp, realplayer and a myriad of others, and just use Microsoft media player? do you want .NET and hailstorm to hold all your details and credit card details and sell the use of them to everyone else?? Thats what microsoft are doing (or trying to do now.) Also, microsoft tout full standards support for XML and SOAP (which is a method by which different apps in different places written with different languages can talk to each other in a standard format...) Then they said that they will protect their property (which it isn't) by adding hooks to their versions so that no app can talk to a ms app as well as another ms app... so JAVA perl and other programs won't be on the same level of functionality as anything MS writes.. they did the same thing with other APPS as well, like office. it links in to windows far better then what other developers are permitted to, the result is that the MS apps perform better and ms has garnered another monopoly.. Also, if Ms are so full of innovation, why is hotmail (a microsoft service) still using freebsd servers? and why has microsoft admitted nicking freebsd code for their own apps?? and why does the MS license for their programing products say that you will be in breach of your license if you use one of the tools you bought from us to develop software for any other OS but windows... (like linux which they called viral software). yep, thats playing fair... doesn't ANY of that make you think that perhaps they are the ones stifeling innovation?? it should a several federal US judges thought so, and about 80 percent of industry experts appear to as well... I don't hate Microsoft, I wouldn't be that petty... I just hate what they are being permitted to do... (IE FORCE absolutly everyone to use microsoft products for everything they can get away with...) They have done even worse stuff with XP, and they know that they can get away with it... Think about it, the whole DOJ case was based on IE being in win95,,, they didn't stop, they made millions selling it, all while the court case was happening.. the same will happen with XP, by the time they lose the case and get made to retract it.. they will have already made their millions... and they know it... thats why the are still engaged in behaviour that got them in the sh1t in the first place.. All of this is provable stuff, go and look at anchordesk.com to see ZDnets reports on it.. regards Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rita F. Koenigs Sent: Monday, 2 July 2001 7:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] curious Microsoft is considered a great company by many; it can be argued that they are great because of innovative ideas ... Will .NET be considered amazing by many? Will Windows XP succeed? Can one honestly say that Micro$soft has such a huge presence mostly because of unfair business practices? Their goal is to have as much power in as many areas of computer technology as possible. While some of their tactics have been illegal, the same amount of time has elapsed for *every company to have innovative ideas. Along with power, the Company has amassed a great deal of money ... research and development over the years has produced innovative ideas, and * some cut-throat business practices (not ALL) which have been difficult to stop...but what keeps them legit, I guess, (I'm only trying to be objective here ... I'm just an inexperienced person curious about computers who is jumping on the linux bandwagon with not a lot of ease, having a real problem with the M$ monopoly) is their innovation. It seems a bit unfair to say that M$ has not been innovative, both from a marketing and technological standpoint. BUT ... I hope that in the future, kids, adults, businesses, *everyone will experience a world where Micro$oft NO LONGER has an enormous share in *everything related to computers, and where there are many more companies that can call themselves no less dominant than Micro$oft. Rita linux still has some problems for the average user, but at the same time it has been rapidly progressing since the command-line based Slackware 2/3 days. I agree and look forward to the progress of the next few months. Let's all hope that by the time Windows XP comes out, Linux will make more strides toward user friendliness because I do think more Windows users will be looking for a way out of Microsoft's clutches. --Judy Miner __ Do
RE: FW: [newbie] curious ....
perhaps you should consider working for them... i use win2000 cos I currently have to but I have found very little innovation in ms products.. and I ought to know, used to be an oem reseller don't get me wrong, they have developed a good working GUI, but have you seen Geowrite and goeworks? I used to have them on my commodore 64 years ago, and windows still bears a strange resemblance to that strange that... There is no doubt that MS is a competitor,, the simple matter of the fact is that you seem to support a monopoly in theory.. I am sure if you worked for one of the hundreds of companies that MS crushed to get where they are, you would have a more wider view of this... Take for example... right back at the start, IBM and Microsoft where taken to court by Digital research who accused them of stealing dos code from them,, (IBM had to support MS in this because they only had MS dos to work with back them for the PC) anyway, they denied it, and tried to prove it by bringing in a PC with msdos on it, the digital research guy promptly typed in a hidden code, and low an behold, a digital research copywrite logo appeared in MSdos ... gee, how did that get there.. obviously MS and IBM lost that case,, and settled.. (although caldera, the current owner of whats left of digital reseach may be picking up that ball soon.) anyway, part of the settlement was a gag order,, and thats a standard tactic for Ms,, every time they lose or settle a court case, they make a gag order a condition of settlement... which some would argue is a good business tactic... but its why people like yourself don't hear about all the bad stuff... The simple fact of the matter is that when you have 90 odd percent of the worlds desktop PC's OS, and you offer a bundled package, the chances are, if it works, most people won't download and try alternatives... This is not a variable, it is now court proven and apeal denied.. microsoft ARE a monopoly, and they DO use that to illegally leaverage themselves, which is fine for ordinary bussiness (not the illegal part, but its not illegal if you are not a monopoly.), but when you have the size and power of microsoft, you have to be restrained, because new and innovative companies or just smaller companies, simply can not compete with a product that comes for free with windows.. Also, you have missed the point of the whole standards things, XML, SOAP, Wc3 are all standards bodies of recent vintage, they were designed to enable companies to create innovative product that put everyone on an equal footing... and Sun, Netscape and the other participants are following them almost religiously... NS 6 beta is a buggy but almost exact to the letter implimentation of the standards IE5.5 isn't... There is no real standard yet for instant messaging, streaming media and some of the other areas... and I certainly don't blame AOL for locking out others in the instant messaging protocols,, I would too in their position.. if they let microsoft instant messanger link with AOL, then who would download the AOL version since the Ms one is BUNDLED WITH WINDOWS??? AIM would go the way netscape is now If people had the choise of downloading MS instant messanger or AOL messanger, then that would be fair... and I would think that people had a fair choice.. newbies learn what they have in front of them,, and like IE, Ms instant messanger is part of windows, and once you learn a piece of software, and it works well enough.. then most people don't go trying the oppositions product its as simple as that, I can't believe you are saying its not anticompetitive.. it was so blatent that a team of judges couldn't revoke the ruling of a judge they all declaired to be prejudiced... Having said all of that, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I certainly don't begrudge you yours... Thats what open source is about, the right to choose,, something Ms don't think we should know we have... (and most newies don't.) have a lovely day... :-) regards Frank -Original Message- From: Jose Mirles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, 2 July 2001 9:33 AM To: Franki; Rules Address for MDK Subject: Re: FW: [newbie] curious On Sunday 01 July 2001 20:21, Franki wrote: couple of little points I would add to that... years ago when the www was new, netscape developed a pretty not browser and called it navigator.. ms then came up with IE and in order to get rid of NS, they bundled it with Windows, so that people who already had a browser would use that instead of downloading one,, it worked No, it was Netscape's refusal to correct errors which still plague it today that destroyed Netscape. Navigator 3.03 was a rock solid browser, then Netscape became big headed and started creating their own extension and then tried to throw Communicator at us. They have no one to blame but themselves. Hardcore Navigator users (me included) simply chose a better product in IE
RE: FW: [newbie] curious ....
oh yeah, I meant to respond to this as well.. MS is full of innovation. Thanks to them millions upon million of users can now use a PC. OS2 didn't do that, neither did UNIX or Linux. It was Windows 3.1 that started it and Windows 95 that really made PC's sell. I may not like MS, but I can not denied their kudos. thats not innovation, its marketing MS's marketing companys costs them a half a billion a year, and they earn every cent..
Fw: [newbie] curious ....
As far as market share goes, I think you'd have to take FreeBSD out of that list. FreeBSD is the ISP UNIX. It's a downsized UNIX, but still a step above Linux. I don't know of anybody personally that's using FreeBSD as a desktop/workstation (Meanwhile I do have a FreeBSD server at home.) and I've heard of only a few that really do. I've never seen a boxed set of FreeBSD in any store, and I don't spend much time at the webpage to see if they even sell the CDs for the OS. But as a server it's amazing. Daily security reports, I love it's use of the /usr/ports making new software installs very nice and very simple. Actually a friend of mine deposted a copy of 4.4 FreeBSD Lite on my desk the other day including the approxiamately 800 page manual. I've seen boxed sets for sale at our local Staples office supply store. I threw the first cd in let it boot and took a quicky peek and it appeared to be a major pain for the unaccomplished here. MD at least from the 7.1 (first version MD I ever ran) version totally stomps this program on installation at least it appeared so to me. So I got scared and ran away and the disks still sitlonely and unused...lol. Tazmun
