Re: [newbie] Interesting article reviewing MDK v9.0 (long)
I know where you're coming from Russ. I've been the (unwilling) appointed Fix my computer, please guy in the family/circle of friends. Up until about a month ago I ran a dual boot system which (much to my dismay) ended up being used as a Windows machine. Finally, after having my moments of wanting to throw the computer out the window, I upgraded my hardware and re-installed 9.0 which, for the most part, I'm happy with. (I do agree with some of his points on 9.0's shortcomings but by all means not all... especially his gripe with package selection. If he'd used the full list instead of the groupings he wouldn't have had the problem and it's clearly marked). The learning curve is the issue that is the hardest to deal with when trying to pitch a GNU/Linux distribution. My first home computer was a small keyboard looking thing that had BASIC commands as functions of the keyboard and hooked up to the Television. I've gone through an Atari 5400, a Comodore 64 (still, by all rights a great machine in its time) the introduction of DOS, an Apple IIe, all the way up to modern computers. Though up until the last year and a half or so my *nix experience was VERY LIMITED, I picked up on it fairly quickly for someone steeped in Windows. My whole outlook on computers is that if you don't know how they work, you shouldn't own one, plain and simple, until you LEARN. I don't know how many tech support calls I've received from friends who didn't even know what Windows Explorer was, what a driver was, what a dos prompt was, or even how to empty the recycle bin. On the other hand computers have become ubiquitous in our society and some knowledge of at least how to point and click your way through a basic system is needed, so I've tried to go a little easier on people. Dell, Compaq, HP, Gateway, and the like along with Windows have made it pretty easy to get a pre-installed system and get going which is both good and bad for users. Good because they can use a computer but bad because they don't understand how they do what they do. Herein lies the problem with switching to a *nix system. Even the best graphical system requires at least a basic knowledge of the command line. Mandrake's come SO CLOSE that, IMO it's the only distro I would recommend for a first time user migrating from w32, but I would not recommend it to the lady down the street who still uses a typewriter at work that just got her first machine ( a 500 dollar computer.. that's gotta have GREAT HARDWARE lol). 15 years ago, if Mandrake 9.0 was released, the world would look at Mr. Gates and laugh today because there was still a lot of the command line involved then. GNU/Linux would have soared. It was all a matter of timing. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to have real ease of use, but it can be detrimental overall when it comes to total knowledge. So the way I deal with it is, when someone wants me to fix their machine I put THEM in front of it. I make THEM fix their machine with my help. This frustrates my friends at first but in the end I have to believe that I've helped them understand computers at least a little more, and many have thanked me for it. One friend is so fed up with Windoze now that she told me when she gets a computer again, she's building it herself, reading up on which hardware she should get, sitting down with me and installing a full Mandrake system... no windows at all. (She was impressed with my machine lol.) It's been a good experience for me too. I used to be quite hard on people who didn't know what they were doing, and I've learned it's better to teach than to critisize. So, in conclusion, in my opinion, this review was poorly written, in bad taste, and detrimental to GNU/Linux. In expecting more from the distribution than from his own knowledge, the author is perpetuating the notion that Linux is hard to learn, hard to use, and hard to adapt to, and that you shouldn't need to have to learn something before you try to use it. It took me YEARS to adapt to Windows from DOS, it took me a couple months to adapt to GNU/Linux. Sorry for the novel. Jerry. On 05 Jan 2003 09:11:38 -0800 Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am a definite newbie to the world of Linux. I have tinkered with it in the past but always had issues that prevented me from fully jumping on board. I have been dealing with Windows since I got into computers in the early 90's. I am the guy that my friends (and their friends) call when there windows computer goes haywire (free tech support). I am no expert on Windows but I can find my way around and fix many of the common problems that pop up. I have helped friends (and myself) reinstall windows more times than I care to remember. I said the above just to show you that I am actually qualified to jump in on this thread. I bought a new hard drive for the purposes of tackling Linux again (with Mandrake9). I wanted a dual boot
Re: [newbie] Interesting article reviewing MDK v9.0 (long)
On Sunday 05 Jan 2003 12:23 pm, Jerry wrote: My whole outlook on computers is that if you don't know how they work, you shouldn't own one, plain and simple, until you LEARN. So do you own a car? Can you pull it apart to the last screw/rivit and re-build it? Can you diagnose every smallest unusual sound? Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Interesting article reviewing MDK v9.0 (long)
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:26:02 + Anne Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 05 Jan 2003 12:23 pm, Jerry wrote: My whole outlook on computers is that if you don't know how they work, you shouldn't own one, plain and simple, until you LEARN. So do you own a car? Can you pull it apart to the last screw/rivit and re-build it? Can you diagnose every smallest unusual sound? Anne Now i didn't mean know everything .. and my wording didn't come out quite like i meant... but I'll give you a point for it, ya got me. sorry i've been up all night fixing someone else's computers again and im a little aggrevated. LOL. (I should have said WAS... that was more what i meant. We Sagittarians tend to speak before wholly thinking something out :-P). As I was trying to explain further on (unsuccessfully, i guess) is that I've more patience now with ppl who don't understand which i didn't before. As for a direct answer to the question posed, I understand enough about one to know how it works, which is what I meant about computers. But what the heck... i'm a good sport. :-) Anne 1 Jerry 0 LOL. take care. Jerry. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Interesting article reviewing MDK v9.0 (long)
On Sunday 05 Jan 2003 2:50 pm, Jerry wrote: On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:26:02 + Anne Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 05 Jan 2003 12:23 pm, Jerry wrote: My whole outlook on computers is that if you don't know how they work, you shouldn't own one, plain and simple, until you LEARN. So do you own a car? Can you pull it apart to the last screw/rivit and re-build it? Can you diagnose every smallest unusual sound? Anne Now i didn't mean know everything .. and my wording didn't come out quite like i meant... but I'll give you a point for it, ya got me. sorry i've been up all night fixing someone else's computers again and im a little aggrevated. LOL. (I should have said WAS... that was more what i meant. We Sagittarians tend to speak before wholly thinking something out :-P). As I was trying to explain further on (unsuccessfully, i guess) is that I've more patience now with ppl who don't understand which i didn't before. As for a direct answer to the question posed, I understand enough about one to know how it works, which is what I meant about computers. But what the heck... i'm a good sport. :-) Anne 1 Jerry 0 LOL. take care. Jerry. I understand what you mean, Jerry. It's so frustrating when someone asks for help over the phone, you say open Explorer, they say What do you mean? And yes, you get fed up with being responsible for fixing hardware that is getting less and less reliable with age, and you wouldn't even attempt what they were asking if it were yours. Just save your sanity - for some people it is merely a tool, and they just want it to work like an electric kettle. The fact that it's more complicated is not relevant to them. One said to me, I don't have to understand the physics involved to use a hammer, and that's just about it. For some of us, understanding more is an obsession, for others it's a time-waster. Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Interesting article reviewing MDK v9.0 (long)
On Sun, 5 Jan 2003, Jerry wrote: So, in conclusion, in my opinion, this review was poorly written, in bad taste, and detrimental to GNU/Linux. In expecting more from the distribution than from his own knowledge, the author is perpetuating the notion that Linux is hard to learn, hard to use, and hard to adapt to, and that you shouldn't need to have to learn something before you try to use it. It took me YEARS to adapt to Windows from DOS, it took me a couple months to adapt to GNU/Linux. Sorry for the novel. Jerry. I thought it was pretty fair. I, too, know about the full list, and was surprised that he didn't, but it seems to me Mandrake should TELL the user that only the alpha selection is complete. With choice comes confusion, and we accent the benefits of the former by minimizing the latter. Should we really expect the newbies to have to figure it all out like we did? Must they walk 20 miles to school through the snow (like my Dad said he did)? There were things I disagreed with in his review but I didn't think he was going out of his way to be unfair. Remember, he LIKED 8.2. Maybe he'll also like 9.1 and/or 9.2 as well. Mandrake would do well to listen to this kind of constructive, sympathetic review. Dale Huckeby Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Interesting article reviewing MDK v9.0
On Sunday 05 Jan 2003 7:54 am, Stephen Kuhn wrote: Hate to say, told y'all so, but once again, someone else agrees and has come to the same conclusion...and they're paid for it... http://www.ofb.biz/modules.php?name=Newsfile=articlesid=189 I'm getting 'cannot resolve ofb.biz' or 'ofb.biz not found' Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] Interesting article reviewing MDK v9.0
Me too, but I tried it again later and it's working now. I'm sorry I read it though. The best part for me was reading the responses to his article. ;) ~Brandon Kernel Version 5.00.2195 DOGBOY has been up for: 8 day(s), 10 hour(s), 59 minute(s), 5 second(s) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Anne Wilson Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 2:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] Interesting article reviewing MDK v9.0 On Sunday 05 Jan 2003 7:54 am, Stephen Kuhn wrote: Hate to say, told y'all so, but once again, someone else agrees and has come to the same conclusion...and they're paid for it... http://www.ofb.biz/modules.php?name=Newsfile=articlesid=189 I'm getting 'cannot resolve ofb.biz' or 'ofb.biz not found' Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Interesting article reviewing MDK v9.0
I am a definite newbie to the world of Linux. I have tinkered with it in the past but always had issues that prevented me from fully jumping on board. I have been dealing with Windows since I got into computers in the early 90's. I am the guy that my friends (and their friends) call when there windows computer goes haywire (free tech support). I am no expert on Windows but I can find my way around and fix many of the common problems that pop up. I have helped friends (and myself) reinstall windows more times than I care to remember. I said the above just to show you that I am actually qualified to jump in on this thread. I bought a new hard drive for the purposes of tackling Linux again (with Mandrake9). I wanted a dual boot system (Win98 MD9). My windows partition is still not up and running (no sound, no Internet, video in basic mode). Mandrake9 was up and running within 5 min after install (it took me that long to find the papers that had my mail setting and computer name - cable internet connection). Now you tell me which was easier to install? The problem comes from the steep learning curve from Win to Linux. As I get into it again, some of it is coming back to me. I still have a long way to go to be as efficient in Linux as I am in Windows. I do know that I want to get away from Windows altogether. The way things look so far, it looks like I may be able to with MD9. So I plug away. First order of business is to tackle wine. I can say that if Linux continues to mature as it has and MS continues their idiotic policies, more of us will join you. Do not be afraid of a less than perfect review. Jump for joy for a favorable one. You are gaining ground. Russ On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 04:52, Anne Wilson wrote: Of course some of the problems come from the fact that everything changes so fast in Linux. We are all hungry for the latest and greatest 'improvements'. There's nothing stopping us from taking an earlier version, but do we? As I have said before, getting x.0 of anything is almost bound to have issues. On Sunday 05 Jan 2003 10:37 am, Brandon Vanderberg wrote: Me too, but I tried it again later and it's working now. I'm sorry I read it though. The best part for me was reading the responses to his article. ;) Some of them amazed me - some made me angry. In the first place I think people do discount how long it took to get windows expertise. More important than that, I do wonder about some of these self-styled experts. To state that it was necessary to use an Expert install in order to keep his partitions is blatant b***sh**. Many other comments suggest to me that the user is not prepared to learn anything, wants everything on a plate. OK - but accept that you have no control at all if you do. I have long held that a newbie to windows gets a pc with windows installed. He has no choice, and the limited choice available to him is not apparent unless he takes the trouble to learn about it - and many do not. The reviewer is right that those initial problems are tackled by vendors or geeky relatives/friends. The main difference with linux is that the user is unlikely, in many instances, to be offered it by the vendor, and by the numbers game, unlikely to have friends/relatives sufficiently expert to want to be responsible for his system. I'm not pleading perfection in 9.0. nor for that matter in Mandrake, and I know there is a need to have a need-list (re fixes or improvements) as well as a wish-list (by which I mean the less urgent). It made interesting reading, though, even if I did keep thinking 'funny, I didn't get that problem'. Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Interesting article reviewing MDK v9.0
On Sunday 05 January 2003 12:11 pm, Russ wrote: I am a definite newbie to the world of Linux. I have tinkered with it in the past but always had issues that prevented me from fully jumping on board. I have been dealing with Windows since I got into computers in the early 90's. I am the guy that my friends (and their friends) call when there windows computer goes haywire (free tech support). I am no expert on Windows but I can find my way around and fix many of the common problems that pop up. I have helped friends (and myself) reinstall windows more times than I care to remember. I said the above just to show you that I am actually qualified to jump in on this thread. I bought a new hard drive for the purposes of tackling Linux again (with Mandrake9). I wanted a dual boot system (Win98 MD9). My windows partition is still not up and running (no sound, no Internet, video in basic mode). Mandrake9 was up and running within 5 min after install (it took me that long to find the papers that had my mail setting and computer name - cable internet connection). Now you tell me which was easier to install? The problem comes from the steep learning curve from Win to Linux. As I get into it again, some of it is coming back to me. I still have a long way to go to be as efficient in Linux as I am in Windows. I do know that I want to get away from Windows altogether. The way things look so far, it looks like I may be able to with MD9. So I plug away. First order of business is to tackle wine. I can say that if Linux continues to mature as it has and MS continues their idiotic policies, more of us will join you. Do not be afraid of a less than perfect review. Jump for joy for a favorable one. You are gaining ground. Russ On Sun, 2003-01-05 at 04:52, Anne Wilson wrote: Of course some of the problems come from the fact that everything changes so fast in Linux. We are all hungry for the latest and greatest 'improvements'. There's nothing stopping us from taking an earlier version, but do we? As I have said before, getting x.0 of anything is almost bound to have issues. On Sunday 05 Jan 2003 10:37 am, Brandon Vanderberg wrote: Me too, but I tried it again later and it's working now. I'm sorry I read it though. The best part for me was reading the responses to his article. ;) Some of them amazed me - some made me angry. In the first place I think people do discount how long it took to get windows expertise. More important than that, I do wonder about some of these self-styled experts. To state that it was necessary to use an Expert install in order to keep his partitions is blatant b***sh**. Many other comments suggest to me that the user is not prepared to learn anything, wants everything on a plate. OK - but accept that you have no control at all if you do. I have long held that a newbie to windows gets a pc with windows installed. He has no choice, and the limited choice available to him is not apparent unless he takes the trouble to learn about it - and many do not. The reviewer is right that those initial problems are tackled by vendors or geeky relatives/friends. The main difference with linux is that the user is unlikely, in many instances, to be offered it by the vendor, and by the numbers game, unlikely to have friends/relatives sufficiently expert to want to be responsible for his system. I'm not pleading perfection in 9.0. nor for that matter in Mandrake, and I know there is a need to have a need-list (re fixes or improvements) as well as a wish-list (by which I mean the less urgent). It made interesting reading, though, even if I did keep thinking 'funny, I didn't get that problem'. Anne I agree with Russ and like Russ I am the one that family and friends call for Windows support. I was a die-hard if somewhat disgruntled Windows fan until XP and Palladium started to hit the news. I am now completely off of Windows on my computer (my wife and sons are a different story). The learning curve is steep but in part because I keep wanting to look at things in a Windows fashion. I am becoming more comfortable and somewhat more proficient with Linux. I have SAMBA, VNC, WINE, CROSSOVER (demo for the moment) installed and have loved every minute of the learning experience (even the exasperating times). Course, I have bought 3 books on the subject matter and need to buy at least one more. Linux is reaching a point that the slightly above average computer user can now learn what to do and how to do it. The news articles are encouraging. And I honestly believe (because I know that I have), its the support people that are/will have a grassroots impact on the way people are thinking about the Linux distros. Sorry, on my Linux soapbox... David Williams -- -- ( )_( ) ( OO ) ( ) o Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
