Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
What ever happened to free speech? If you don't agree with someone, why not express your opinion, instead of whining? If it really is too much trouble to simply delete what you don't want to read, why not get another account for the list? ShalomOut Chal Elder PCUSA Registered Linux user #217118 Jeanette Russo wrote: How many people would like to see this thread taken off list it is OT. - Original Message - From: John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft I hate threads like this. Makes you stop and think about why you use these mailing lists!!! John W
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
Been on holiday have we? g On Thursday 12 July 2001 10:43, Charles A. Punch wrote: What ever happened to free speech? If you don't agree with someone, why not express your opinion, instead of whining? If it really is too much trouble to simply delete what you don't want to read, why not get another account for the list? ShalomOut Chal Elder PCUSA Registered Linux user #217118 Jeanette Russo wrote: How many people would like to see this thread taken off list it is OT. - Original Message - From: John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft I hate threads like this. Makes you stop and think about why you use these mailing lists!!! John W -- Serenity through viciousness.
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
On Friday 13 July 2001 12:18 am, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: On Fri, 13 Jul 2001 04:32, Tom Brinkman wrote: On Thursday 12 July 2001 04:43 am, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: Many people buy a little too much into the GNU/Linux hype, and become disappointed when it isn't the same as Windows. Seems like a contradictory statement to me Sridhar ? I believe many Lusers aren't payin _enough_ _attention_ to the GNU/Linux hype. Particularly the difference between open and closed source software and hardware. Specially those just tryin Linux, but even some more experienced users, don't know, care, or understand that closed source software and hardware can't and never can be supported for Linux and why. That's it's often disappointing and even dangerous to try to. [disappointed] ...but it works great with Window$ http://www.mandrakeforum.org/article.php?sid=427lang=en ...we have the problem of secret software in general. Allow me to clarify my statement. Granted, I'm glad you did ;) People can read about GNU/Linux all over the place nowadays. Much of this stuff stresses how user-friendly it is in combination with desktops like GNOME and KDE, and so people are enticed to try it out. As I have mentioned in earlier posts, people's definitions on user-friendly and intuitive can vary greatly, and many Windows users define user-friendliness as being like Windows. While GNOME and KDE *are* user-friendly environments, they are *not* Windows. This seems to disappoint a lot of newcomers, and so they complain that this isn't Windows. On the other hand, there are many people out there who could benefit greatly from GNU/Linux, yet do not try it out. The Microsoft monopoly has conditioned them into thinking that Windows is the only viable desktop OS, and that constant crashes, virii and security breaches are normal. To them, GNU/Linux is difficult to comprehend, with its endless array of distributions and its command-line access. Windows looks easy, since it is designed to be entirely graphical (and hence limiting in terms of functionality). Conversely, GNU/Linux looks like it has too many commands to keep track of. While the reality is that almost everything in GNU/Linux can be done graphically, people are led to believe that they need to memorise hundreds of console commands. The MandrakeForum article you linked to was very interesting, and it serves to reinforce my belief that binary-only drivers are bad. Unfortunately, for several types of hardware people do not have much of a choice. This is particularly evident in graphics hardware. Most video cards nowadays employ a Nvidia or ATI chipset, which require binary-only drivers to work. These two companies basically *own* the consumer 3D acceleration market, so anyone wishing to have decent 3D performance must buy one of these chipsets. As much as I hate binary-only drivers, I am increasingly thinking about purchasing Nvidia graphics hardware for my next PC. Things were much better when Matrox and 3Dfx were kings (I currently have a Millennium II and a Voodoo2). These companies worked closely with the XFree86 group to produce quality open-source drivers. But alas, those golden days are now over :-( Couldn't agree more with ya Sridhar. BUT you did leave the door open for me to once again rant about closed source ;) AND it's much more than just drivers, it's binary only applications many Lusers introduce into their system, and then blame Linux and/or Mandrake when the results are less than satisfactory. I believe this is a major point of ignorance with many Lusers. It often is also the major point of their dissatifaction, and they don't realize it's their own fault. Like you, I'm also on the crux of gettin a GeForce. BUT, at least I know that any problems, including loss of security, arising from that decision, are user, then hardware, but not at all Mandrake GNU/Linux. The only thing saving me is my Voodoo3 is still proving to be adequate. specially if I could figure out how to overclock it in Linux without having to rewrite the open source drivers. Winbloes just needs a registry hack to do it to their secret driver ; -- Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
John, Etharp, et al., Seriously, though, my foundation just finished a special study last month in which I discovered that _millions_ of threads are simply abandoned every single year, and that this has been a growing trend for many years! It's really not a laughing matter. Many of these threads don't deserve the apathy and neglect that come from us who just don't feel like contributing anymore. Who are we to vilify these threads? Are we not responsible for them?! The whole situation is simple unbelievable. Threads don't deserve that kind of treatment you people are suggesting here. Most of the time it's not their fault that they turned out that way. If you study them closely, you find that these threads really had no choice to turn out the way they did. Most of them had a very decent beginning. They were bright, full of ideas and humor; they expressed an ever-so-humble curiosity; and they made us question the way _we_ do things-to take another look at our lives to make sure we were doing things the best. They enriched us. But we live such fast-paced lives today, that it's too easy to introduce turmoil into these threads. We move so fast; regrettable things are said; nobody teaches them moderation. They get out of control! So who do we blame? If we're honest... we blame ourselves. So please, put away your weapons, your threats, and change your heart. Don't take out your frustrations with the murder or abandonment of threads. It's time to take a stand. To be counted. To speak up and proclaim, No!! I won't tolerate this anymore. I'm going to improve the life of threads, and I'm starting with ME! Miark P.S. To contribute to the continued research and care of threads, please give what you can by making a non-tax deductible donation via PayPal to [EMAIL PROTECTED] And thank you for your kind support. - Original Message - From: etharp [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: John W [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft NO NO Reay this thread, and all threads deserve to live full and sometime productive lives no don't pull out that gunno please don't shoot this thread.. no realy dont shoot me... PLEAS BANG BANG BANG On Friday 13 July 2001 17:14, John W wrote: At 08:56 AM 7/13/01 -0500, Jeanette Russo wrote: How many people would like to see this thread taken off list it is OT. - Original Message - From: John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft I hate threads like this. Makes you stop and think about why you use these mailing lists!!! John W I would like to see it go.
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
On Thu, 12 Jul 2001 08:15, Judith Miner wrote: Thank you for your very gracious message, Sridhar. Misunderstandings and misjudgments are a common problem in e-mail lists and forums, especially when we aren't very well acquainted. I think I was expecting too much too soon with my Linux installation. I wanted to get it up and fully useful within two weeks, which I stretched to three. I now realize it will take much longer to set up my desktop and become familiar with the system and the applications. I have other work to do, so I'll continue working with Linux as I can find time for it--and I really enjoy it, so finding time will be a high priority. I'm glad we have managed to resolve things on the list. Many people buy a little too much into the GNU/Linux hype, and become disappointed when it isn't the same as Windows. I'm not saying you're one of them, but I'm glad that you enjoy it -- even after all the misaccusations that have been flying around on the list. Like anything new, it takes time to truly understand. After a while, it'll really grow on you :-) I still get the feeling, however, that you are annoyed that GNU/Linux is not Windows. No, I'm not. I accept the system for what it is, I respect it, and I like it. I think most users of the graphical interface would agree that there is still work to be done. Things that Windows or Mac OS have gotten right ought not be rejected simply because of the source, however. Eventually Linux with a graphical interface will be so much nicer than Windows or the Mac because the user will have *choice* far beyond what can be done in the other OSes. You can set it up exactly the way you like and have so many more possibilities. Hear, hear! However, this is also a major reason why things don't seem so simple in *nix compared to Windows or MacOS. There are so many different variations in features and how they are implemented that it is difficult to design one all-encompassing way of doing something. Windows and MacOS, OTOH, restrict possibilities to a degree where creating a new feature or application can be easy. A similar example can be seen in *nix component architectures. GNOME uses a very flexible system, CORBA. This flexibility, however, made things more difficult to code, and performance was not great on slower machines. The KDE group recognised that, and instead made their own simpler version, KParts. While not as versatile, it wa far easier to code for, and it was faster. This, IMHO, is a reason why KDE is developing so quickly. KParts has made code reuse easier to achieve, while maintaining enough functionality to get things done. Your special character (e.g. cedilla) problem is interesting. Microsoft tries its best to blur the distinction between elements in its OS, as Civileme has noted. In GNU/Linux, on the other hand, packages and elements are clear-cut and well-defined. Civileme appeared to be annoyed that many people blame the entire OS for little problems like this, It's a MAJOR problem, not a little problem. It is also not really a blurred distinction in Windows--or in the Mac OS. Windows uses the so-called Microsoft 1252 character set. This is essentially the Latin 1 character set with typographical characters inserted into the empty positions between 129 and 160 in the 256 available slots. *All* applications use the same character set, and all characters can be entered from the keyboard (with many languages supported). All TrueType fonts in the \Windows\Fonts directory are available to all applications for printing, with correct screen rasterization at all point sizes. All Type 1 fonts managed by Adobe Type Manager are available to all applications for printing and viewing. Character sets are consistent across applications. It is seamless and transparent to the user. You *never* have to install fonts into applications. The system supplies the fonts to the applications. Windows 2000 supports both Type 1 and TrueType natively, and Unicode is also supported, though the extent depends on the application. Unicode is still fairly new and applications have to be written to take advantage of it. Plus most fonts do not yet have a full Unicode set of glyphs and many never will. Mac OS operates similarly, with a consistent character set available to all applications with the same keystrokes. Lest you think I am viewing this problem through a Windows lens, let me quote from the Font HOTTO from linuxdoc.org (also installed with Mandrake 8 documentation): Installing fonts for WYSIWYG publishing on Linux is a relatively complex task... The main reason for the complexity is that the font printing system (ghostscript) is unrelated to the screen font system. In a way, Linux's left hand does not know what its right hand is doing. This problem is nontrivial to solve, beause it is possible that printer fonts and display fonts reside on different machines, so there is no guarantee that
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
On Thursday 12 July 2001 04:43 am, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: Many people buy a little too much into the GNU/Linux hype, and become disappointed when it isn't the same as Windows. Seems like a contradictory statement to me Sridhar ? I believe many Lusers aren't payin _enough_ _attention_ to the GNU/Linux hype. Particularly the difference between open and closed source software and hardware. Specially those just tryin Linux, but even some more experienced users, don't know, care, or understand that closed source software and hardware can't and never can be supported for Linux and why. That's it's often disappointing and even dangerous to try to. [disappointed] ...but it works great with Window$ http://www.mandrakeforum.org/article.php?sid=427lang=en ...we have the problem of secret software in general. -- Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
Thank you for your very gracious message, Sridhar. Misunderstandings and misjudgments are a common problem in e-mail lists and forums, especially when we aren't very well acquainted. I think I was expecting too much too soon with my Linux installation. I wanted to get it up and fully useful within two weeks, which I stretched to three. I now realize it will take much longer to set up my desktop and become familiar with the system and the applications. I have other work to do, so I'll continue working with Linux as I can find time for it--and I really enjoy it, so finding time will be a high priority. I still get the feeling, however, that you are annoyed that GNU/Linux is not Windows. No, I'm not. I accept the system for what it is, I respect it, and I like it. I think most users of the graphical interface would agree that there is still work to be done. Things that Windows or Mac OS have gotten right ought not be rejected simply because of the source, however. Eventually Linux with a graphical interface will be so much nicer than Windows or the Mac because the user will have *choice* far beyond what can be done in the other OSes. You can set it up exactly the way you like and have so many more possibilities. Your special character (e.g. cedilla) problem is interesting. Microsoft tries its best to blur the distinction between elements in its OS, as Civileme has noted. In GNU/Linux, on the other hand, packages and elements are clear-cut and well-defined. Civileme appeared to be annoyed that many people blame the entire OS for little problems like this, It's a MAJOR problem, not a little problem. It is also not really a blurred distinction in Windows--or in the Mac OS. Windows uses the so-called Microsoft 1252 character set. This is essentially the Latin 1 character set with typographical characters inserted into the empty positions between 129 and 160 in the 256 available slots. *All* applications use the same character set, and all characters can be entered from the keyboard (with many languages supported). All TrueType fonts in the \Windows\Fonts directory are available to all applications for printing, with correct screen rasterization at all point sizes. All Type 1 fonts managed by Adobe Type Manager are available to all applications for printing and viewing. Character sets are consistent across applications. It is seamless and transparent to the user. You *never* have to install fonts into applications. The system supplies the fonts to the applications. Windows 2000 supports both Type 1 and TrueType natively, and Unicode is also supported, though the extent depends on the application. Unicode is still fairly new and applications have to be written to take advantage of it. Plus most fonts do not yet have a full Unicode set of glyphs and many never will. Mac OS operates similarly, with a consistent character set available to all applications with the same keystrokes. Lest you think I am viewing this problem through a Windows lens, let me quote from the Font HOTTO from linuxdoc.org (also installed with Mandrake 8 documentation): Installing fonts for WYSIWYG publishing on Linux is a relatively complex task... The main reason for the complexity is that the font printing system (ghostscript) is unrelated to the screen font system. In a way, Linux's left hand does not know what its right hand is doing. This problem is nontrivial to solve, beause it is possible that printer fonts and display fonts reside on different machines, so there is no guarantee that all fonts the XClient uses are printable. ...It seems that font management standards which address this issue would greatly simplify the installation of fonts into WYSIWYG publishing systems, because all applications could use a system-wide (as opposed to application-specific) configuration. Read the last sentence again. That's the point I was trying to make. Is the author of Font HOWTO a fifth columnist as some on this list thought I was?g I still cannot excuse your assertions that logging in as root is harmless. This has got to be the *worst* thing you can do. I've never made a general statement that logging in as root is harmless or ought to be a general practice. I have ALWAYS acknowledged the importance of the root/user distinction when multiple users are involved. What I have been trying to *find out* (because I do not KNOW) is whether the harmfulness really applies when the sole user of the system is also root. Leaving aside the question of being online as root, so far the only harmful thing anyone could suggest as a result of a single user working regularly as root is that not being forced to enter a root password would make single user less conscious of the consequences of an action. Frankly, this seems paternalistic to me--as if one says, you are so careless that unless you are forced to think about it, you'll do crazy things like delete files and directories willy-nilly. Besides, if it's MY system and I mess it up because I was
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
I (being American from the Viet Nam era) have the answer to the war against Gates. we pack up, declare ourselves the winner, and not play anymore. we don't need to be against anyone. we just need to be FOR opensource. (imho) On Tuesday 10 July 2001 06:36, Len Lawrence wrote: On Mon, 9 Jul 2001, tazmun wrote: But regardless of whether she was a plant, she's abrasive, offensive, and utterly thankless to the Linux community as a whole. (Isolated thank yous on the list doesn't count.) And you sir are very close minded. You don't want to listen to new ideas and thinking if they don't fall into your narrow guidelines. I have reason to suspect that you would be perfectly happy if Linux remained an elite OS out of the reach of the average user putting yourself on some sort of pedestal. Sorry I don't deal well with snooty I'm better then you types. Judith gave the list some constructive criticism in hopes I'm sure that the right people might be listening. I distinctly remember her thanking the community for all the work that has been done and credited the community with developing a system with great potetial. Maybe not an exact quote but I think the meaning was close. All things change. They get better or get worse and/or die eventually. I believe the community knows this and realizes that Linux's future depends on innovation and new ideas and thinking. With that said I wouldn't be surprised if this community desires me to leave, but that's ok for I don't desire to be somewhere where speaking out for your convictions and ideas is not acceptable. Tazmun Dear tazmun Please don't leave the list. It is essential for the community of Linux users to accept criticism, constructive or otherwise, particularly from recent converts like Judith, and important to avoid complacency, and paranoia. Speaking for myself, it was refreshing to read those first posts from Judith, interesting to see how a deserter from the other camp actually views modern operating systems. As somebody else has pointed out, most PC users see Windows as the face of computers and most of them view computers as a commodity item like a VCR or television or games console. Their mindset is unlikely to change. What do they care about the niceties of Open Source, or free software versus commercial? There is no point in trying to reach them, and that is what will continue to fill Billy's coffers for a long time to come. Many of the diehard Linuxers like me come from a background which has exposed them to many different operating systems and many different ways of applying computers; business, technical, realtime and embedded systems and so on. With 39 years involvement in computers behind me I could never take Windows seriously. It was a toy operating system, but like GNU/Linux has evolved and should now perhaps be regarded as a real operating system. However, I shall always loathe it. I found the interface ugly and awkward to use, counter-intuitive to someone with a long history of command line operations. There seem to be a lot of Linux users who would take the opposite viewpoint - witness the popularity of KDE - so Linux obviously has the potential to please former Windows users, with the added bonus of far more freedom and choice. rant That last point, choice, is another reason why I detest Microsoft and all its hangers on. Gates started a bandwagon rolling which started to gather momentum ten years ago. Software houses jumped on it but were too lazy, ignorant, or greedy to consider providing support for alternative operating systems when they became viable. The business world in particular seemed only too eager to go along with a company whose obvious intention was to take over the world by imposing its own standards on everybody, to strangle all competition, and fleece the punters. Linux does allow choice, but many doors are still closed to it - it is continually being sidelined. For instance, the Encyclopaedia Britannica will never be available for Unix* systems. The UK Ordnance Survey likewise. I would have bought them. The same applies to much educational software and language courses. Writing to these companies does no good - they simply bin the letters. /rant So please bear with us. As you have probably noted, there are many shades of opinion amongst Linux users and developers on almost every subject. That is why it sometimes appears to lurch forward rather than evolve smoothly. There are internal threats to the OS, like forking and the multitude of distributions, so the developers have to divert some of their energies from the war against Gates.
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
The idea that I am a Microsoft employee or a plant infiltrating this list gave me the best laugh I've had in a long time. Especially since I've done nothing else for the past three weeks but try to get a good, working Linux system in hopes that I will never again have to spend my not-abundant money on anything from Bill Gates' company. The only Microsoft software on my computers that I paid for is Windows itself. There is also no pirated Microsoft software. I have Microsoft Works on my laptop, but that's because the laptop came with it and it provides a spell checker used by other applications. I don't like Works and don't use it. I have no Office, no Word, no FrontPage, no Money, no Publisher. Oh yes--I do have Encarta. It was free after a rebate, so I figure Microsoft lost money on that one. Some of you think I'm negative about and critical of Linux. That's because you haven't heard my complaints about Microsoft and Windows.g As with just about everything of this nature on the Net, you don't post messages about stuff that's working well, you post about your problems. In fact, there is a lot I like about Linux and some things about which I'm wildly enthusiastic. I intend to stick with it for the duration. I also agree that it is getting friendlier all the time, and while it has a ways to go, it's headed in the right direction. I am also quite amused that anyone thinks I have some profound knowledge of networking. Just because I can use terms like NetBEUI, TCP/IP, and NetBIOS does not mean I understand anything about them. NetBEUI and TCP/IP are networking protocols. TCP/IP is what you use for the Internet but it can also be used for a LAN. NetBEUI is only for a small LAN; you can't use it for the Internet. I don't know what NetBIOS is, but I know it's not supposed to be enabled for a protocol that gets you on the Internet. For a NetBEUI home network, each workgroup has to have a name and each computer in the workgroup has to have a name. You have to enable file and printer sharing for drives and printers you want available over the network. That is the total of my knowledge of networking. I learned the little I know primarily from grc.com, which explains how to set up your protocols and bindings properly--by default, Windows makes a mess of this. I didn't use Microsoft's wizards to set up my two-computer network. Instead, I got good, easy instructions from some PC magazine's Web site. So the secret is out. I do not have any detailed knowledge of networking. When I say I don't understand the stuff I read about Linux networking, I really don't! Not a clue. I do not know how to make a system safe, but if someone gives me good directions, I can follow them. I am totally puzzled by this post of Roman's: I have been following Judith Miner's email posts since 1996 through the her Wordstar postings on another news group. It appears that she is not new to the Microsoft Windows OS. This goes back as far as Windows 3.11 and DOS. I don't know if she is really who she says she is... but she has been pi**ssing off at lot of people over the years. She is well known through other newsgroups. I'm well known through other newsgroups??? I don't recall ever posting anything to newsgroups. In fact, I haven't read Usenet newsgroups in years. The only newsgroups I've read in the past two years have been on the Adobe and Corel sites, and I just lurked, I didn't post. I am an active member of the WordStar users' support e-mail list. If Roman is a member, I don't recall seeing any messages he has posted. The only people on that list that I've p*ssed off are two Microsoft boosters. One of them has actually waited in line outside a store waiting for the next release of Windows and the other is constantly lauding the wonders of Microsoft Word--this on a WordStar list. So two makes a lot of people? I have received numerous personal e-mails of thanks from WordStar List members whose problems I was able to solve, and have even received e-mails from people who found the answer to their questions in the List archives. In the spirit of volunteerism, I have written a book called WordStar for Windows How-To, which can be downloaded for no charge from the Web sites of the WordStar group and of some of our members. So it comes as news to me that I'm well known through other newsgroups. Of course I'm not new to the Microsoft OS. I go back to DOS 3-something in 1987. I identified myself as an experienced and proficient Windows user when I first posted on this List. Of course, someone had to come up with a crack that proficient Windows users usually weren't. All I can tell you is that I run a lot of demanding programs in the areas of writing, page design and layout, and graphics, as well as general office stuff, I have never had a virus or worm, and I've never had to reinstall Windows because it got messed up beyond salvaging. I'm not trying to dump Windows because I have stability or security problems with it, but because I don't
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
Judith, If this is the case then please accept my sincerest apologies for the bulk of what I have said (although I haven't really said much :-) ). I still get the feeling, however, that you are annoyed that GNU/Linux is not Windows. Fine, it may not be quite as user-friendly, but it is still a work in progress -- you do appear to recognise this. As I and others have posted earlier, different people have very different notions on what user-friendliness and intuitiveness is. Some people prefer how the command line works, some prefer Windows, some prefer MacOS 9, some prefer MacOS X, some prefer GNOME, some prefer KDE... The list goes on and on. Each *nix GUI project has it's own goals and target audience. While it may look like KDE and GNOME, for example, are trying to lure Windows users, they are doing it in different ways. They are both very respectable environments, and both are very usable, but in different ways. When switching to anything new, one must keep an open mind -- otherwise there is no point. Your special character (e.g. cedilla) problem is interesting. Microsoft tries its best to blur the distinction between elements in its OS, as Civileme has noted. In GNU/Linux, on the other hand, packages and elements are clear-cut and well-defined. Civileme appeared to be annoyed that many people blame the entire OS for little problems like this, when the fault (if it is a fault) usually lies with an individual package. I agree with his statement. However, I'm not sure where the best place would be for a special character feature. Perhaps it is a problem with XFree86? I know that MS also makes available an option for using US International keyboards, yet still provides an across-the-board function (using Alt) for special characters. I realise that character sets vary across character sets (e.g. ASCII and Unicode) -- could this be an issue here? Note that this problem is different from the em-dashes and smart-quotes that you can get in MS Word. You obviously have done some homework when it comes to attempting to solve your problems. However, I still cannot excuse your assertions that logging in as root is harmless. This has got to be the *worst* thing you can do. You speak as if you know much about network (and remember that the Internet is also a network) security yet you claim that your Windows box is safe. I must say that your idea of encouraging people to log in as root and then having bad things may happen if you do this messages is simply preposterous (for technical reasons). I do not blame you for this, though. This your first (AFAIK) crack at a secure multi-user OS, and this new paradigm would understandably be a bit bewildering and confusing at first. Civileme has already dispelled the open ports myths, so I shall not revisit that. My bottom-line is that GNU/Linux is a different OS, with different ways of doing things. If it ever becomes a mainstream user-friendly OS, it will not be user-friendly in the same way that MacOS or Windows is. There are different ways of doing things, and one must keep an open mind in order to learn them. For example, your annoyance with typing the root password over and over can be safely circumvented with user permissions, su, kdesu and sudo (as I have repeated endlessly over the past few weeks). I intend all this as constructive criticism, not as an insult or a flame. You are obviously not a troll, and I can sympathise with many of your views. On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 00:13, Judith Miner wrote: The idea that I am a Microsoft employee or a plant infiltrating this list gave me the best laugh I've had in a long time. Especially since I've done nothing else for the past three weeks but try to get a good, working Linux system in hopes that I will never again have to spend my not-abundant money on anything from Bill Gates' company. The only Microsoft software on my computers that I paid for is Windows itself. There is also no pirated Microsoft software. I have Microsoft Works on my laptop, but that's because the laptop came with it and it provides a spell checker used by other applications. I don't like Works and don't use it. I have no Office, no Word, no FrontPage, no Money, no Publisher. Oh yes--I do have Encarta. It was free after a rebate, so I figure Microsoft lost money on that one. Some of you think I'm negative about and critical of Linux. That's because you haven't heard my complaints about Microsoft and Windows.g As with just about everything of this nature on the Net, you don't post messages about stuff that's working well, you post about your problems. In fact, there is a lot I like about Linux and some things about which I'm wildly enthusiastic. I intend to stick with it for the duration. I also agree that it is getting friendlier all the time, and while it has a ways to go, it's headed in the right direction. BIG SNIP it looks weird to me that she doesn't know how to get the
RE: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
Hmmm, interesting, as a relatively disinterested reader of this correspondence I nevertheless found myself interested enough to check with deja-news... I am totally puzzled by this post of Roman's: I have been following Judith Miner's email posts since 1996 through the her Wordstar postings on another news group. It appears that she is not new to the Microsoft Windows OS. This goes back as far as Windows 3.11 and DOS. I don't know if she is really who she says she is... but she has been pi**ssing off at lot of people over the years. She is well known through other newsgroups. I'm well known through other newsgroups??? I don't recall ever posting anything to newsgroups. In fact, I haven't read Usenet newsgroups in years. The only newsgroups I've read in the past two years have been on the Adobe and Corel sites, and I just lurked, I didn't post. It makes for an interesting search on so many topics contributed to by at least one Judith Miner ;o) Daryl Johnson Proplan Associates 07710 908817
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
On Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:51, Tom Brinkman wrote: Most all 'computer' problems are/or, at least I've found it's best for me, should be approached as User, then Hardware, then (any) OS. Also, I'm not hearing anything about the fact that we use GNU/Linux in this thread. Linux is only the kernel, everything else is GNU contributed proccesses and apps written to run on it. It's obvious (at least to me ;) that distros like RH, SuSe, and specially Mandrake have made great strides in gathering together these apps/proccesses, and 'user friendliness' configuration and coordination tools in just the past few years. *_In spite of_* an increasing ignorance and/or preference of Lusers to add closed source/binary only apps and (win)hardware into the mix. (yeah, I'm diggin at y'all nVidia folks again ;) I have to agree here. People tend to forget or even ignore all the hard work the Free Software Foundation has and is still doing. Linux is a kernel. Just about everything else around it is GNU -- hence the term GNU Operating System. The GNU OS can work on a wide variety of *nix kernels (e.g. Solaris BSD). Linux, however, cannot work on its own, and needs the GNU OS to operate. There was a recent discussion on MandrakeForum about this: http://www.mandrakeforum.com/article.php?thold=-1mode=nestedorder=0sid=1038lang=en Please be patient while it loads -- it is quite large. Prominent discussions on the page involve an argument between Craig Black and Yama. Craig is one of those pitiful souls who cannot comprehend the work of Richard Stallman or the FSF. Yama and a few others refute him at every turn, and eventually it just becomes an insult-fest :-) It's quite funny to read Craig's work, and eventually Deno (the Forum maintainer) adds his own two cents. By the way, if you haven't figured it out yet, Yama is my handle -- so all Yama posts are by me :-) -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
I initially thought that Civileme's post was just a bit over the top. After reading this, however, I think he was pretty-much spot-on. I suggest that if Judith wants something more like Windows, she have a look at other OSs like MacOS, OS/2 or BeOS. OS/2 is a single-user OS, and it has quite a few good applications written for it (many of them ports from *nix). I used to run it back in the Warp 3 days (around 1995). GNU/Linux *will* become more user-friendly, but it will take time. It is not quite there yet for the average user. System elements like the root-user dichotomy will never disappear, for they are fundamental to system stabliity. Implementing work-arounds to this would only defeat GNU/Linux's security (both physical and network, including Internet), and anyone knowledgeable enough to code such a system (assuming it is possible) would not do so because their knowledge would tell them it is a bad idea. As Civileme mentioned in an earlier post, MS try to blur the distinction between application and OS, so migrating Windows users end up blaming Linux when their desired function supposedly does not exist. People must remember that GNU/Linux is not Windows, nor will it ever be Windows. It is an entirely different OS, with entirely different ways of going about things. People need to keep an open mind when trying something new, and they should stop expecting everything to work just like Windows. The oft-abused term intuitive means different things to different people, depending on their own personal experiences. It has often been said that it is far easier to introduce a total computer newbie to GNU/Linux than it is to teach the same thing to an experienced Windows or MacOS user. The total newbie is starting with a clean slate. (S)he does not have any prior expectations on how something should work, and so is not 'hobbled' by past experience. The Windows/MacOS expert, on the other hand, must un-learn everything they had learnt previously, and shelve any expectations, in order to learn the new OS. IMHO, the *real* growth for GNU/Linux in the consumer market will not be in wealthier nations, where MS is already established. The action will instead be in poorer nations and areas, where the free GNU/Linux and cheaper hardware will enable millions to own computers and embedded devices (consoles, set-top boxes, PDAs, etc). With this in mind, focussing on luring Windows users with a clone-interface would be an extremely short-sighted strategy. On Mon, 9 Jul 2001 05:40, Romanator wrote: Jeferson Lopes Zacco wrote: -Mensagem Original- De: civileme [EMAIL PROTECTED] Para: Judith Miner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Enviada em: domingo, 8 de julho de 2001 04:27 Assunto: Re: [newbie] Internet Security And despite the fact that I enjoy your posts, this is my last one to you and note it is on-list. It occurs to me that if you are a Microsoft shill, or executive, that you could be a lot more productive to your company by wasting my time than you could be by being negative on the newbie list. Civileme Interesting ... I had just written an e-mail congratulating Judith on her posts. After reading yours, tough, I must admit they do make some sense...and I haven't seen a reply of hers to your post. I would give a most outraged reply if I were mistaken with a Microshaft plant. And it looks weird to me that she doesn't know how to get the cedille, yet she knows so much about other things. I'm still not convinced she is a plant, tough. Time will tell. On the other hand, I guess that her posts didn't manage to scare anyone, if that was her intention. That linux needs to get easier to configure if it wants to atract Window$ users is a fact. Mandrake has gone a long way towards it by making the installation process easy- it is, in fact much easier and quicker than window$. But there is still work to be done, as I pointed in my last post. Will it be done? It depends on the community attitude towards new users, and their ability to handle micoshaft attacks, which will increase from now on. And it seems that the attacks can be very violent and unexpected indeed... --Jeferson L. Zacco aka Wooky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux registered user #221896 - Computers are used to solve problems that wouldn't exist if computers weren't invented in the first place. I have been following Judith Miner's email posts since 1996 through the her Wordstar postings on another news group. It appears that she is not new to the Microsoft Windows OS. This goes back as far as Windows 3.11 and DOS. I don't know if she is really who she says she is... but she has been pi**ssing off at lot of people over the years. She is well known through other newsgroups. My comments are not because I think I'm better than she is nor am I a Linux elitist or guru. However, almost every
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
etharp wrote: snip hey roman, are you a typical windows user? grin Hey Tom, I have an NVIDIA card and works great. What can I say, it came with the computer. Roman Registered Linux User #179293 su is not the root of your problem but the start of a new journey Only for projects at work. grin -- Roman Registered Linux User #179293 su is not the root of your problem but the start of a new journey
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
I initially thought that Civileme's post was just a bit over the top. After reading this, however, I think he was pretty-much spot-on. I suggest that if Judith wants something more like Windows, she have a look at other OSs like MacOS, OS/2 or BeOS. OS/2 is a single-user OS, and it has quite a few good applications written for it (many of them ports from *nix). I used to run it back in the Warp 3 days (around 1995). [rest snipped] I thought Civileme's post was brilliant. But regardless of whether she was a plant, she's abrasive, offensive, and utterly thankless to the Linux community as a whole. (Isolated thank yous on the list doesn't count.) The Linux community (and especially the Newbie Mandrake community) requires an attitude support, cooperation, and thankfulness. To miss on any of these three things just drags us down, and introduces FUD. We don't need that, and as Civileme did so skillfully, we need to set it straight when it creeps in. Bravo, Civileme. Miark
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
But regardless of whether she was a plant, she's abrasive, offensive, and utterly thankless to the Linux community as a whole. (Isolated thank yous on the list doesn't count.) And you sir are very close minded. You don't want to listen to new ideas and thinking if they don't fall into your narrow guidelines. I have reason to suspect that you would be perfectly happy if Linux remained an elite OS out of the reach of the average user putting yourself on some sort of pedestal. Sorry I don't deal well with snooty I'm better then you types. Judith gave the list some constructive criticism in hopes I'm sure that the right people might be listening. I distinctly remember her thanking the community for all the work that has been done and credited the community with developing a system with great potetial. Maybe not an exact quote but I think the meaning was close. All things change. They get better or get worse and/or die eventually. I believe the community knows this and realizes that Linux's future depends on innovation and new ideas and thinking. With that said I wouldn't be surprised if this community desires me to leave, but that's ok for I don't desire to be somewhere where speaking out for your convictions and ideas is not acceptable. Tazmun
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
On Monday 09 July 2001 15:22, you wrote: But regardless of whether she was a plant, she's abrasive, offensive, and utterly thankless to the Linux community as a whole. (Isolated thank yous on the list doesn't count.) And you sir are very close minded. You don't want to listen to new ideas and thinking if they don't fall into your narrow guidelines. I have reason to suspect that you would be perfectly happy if Linux remained an elite OS If you are applying this to all of the list members you are very much mistaken. I, for example turned to Linux a couple of years ago purely because I wanted something new out of computing, I didn't want shrink wrapped software that in a lot of cases didn't live up to it's media hype. I wanted to learn and have learnt a lot, mainly thanks to people on this list but also because I am not afraid to pick up a book and read. If I considered myself to be elite or part of an elite group I would hardly be writing now on a newbie group. out of the reach of the average user putting yourself on some sort of pedestal. Sorry I don't deal well with snooty I'm better then you types. Your insult is noted and I don't deem it worthy of a considered reply. Judith gave the list some constructive criticism in hopes I'm sure that the right people might be listening. They are, but not even Microsoft would make a modification/bug fix for one person overnight, Linux is new and growing, change takes time. When I started it took me 2 days to install and set up properly - that isn't any sort of elitist comment, I mention it to illustrate how far it has come in a short time, this has come about by requests for change, constructive criticism etc. Don't forget that most of the work on Linux is done by unpaid volunteers, people like you and me who can and do make contributions - but these volunteers have studies/employment to consider and can only devote a limited amount of time to Linux. Companies such as Mandrake are small, very few paid employees - the resources aren't there as they are with Microsoft, IBM and others who can release a team of programmers to deal with a specific matter. I distinctly remember her thanking the community for all the work that has been done and credited the community with developing a system with great potetial. Maybe not an exact quote but I think the meaning was close. All things change. They get better or get worse and/or die eventually. I believe the community knows this and realizes that Linux's future depends on innovation and new ideas and thinking. With that said I wouldn't be surprised if this community desires me to leave,but that's ok for I don't desire to be somewhere where speaking out for your convictions and ideas is not acceptable. That's up to you, nobody will ask you to leave, the thing about Linux is it's free, to quote as in speech, not beer you have your right to free speech and you have your views which may be criticised openly, even rudely perhaps, but they will be respected. Tazmun Sorry this is reply is badly edited, I don't do rant very well grin -- Poogle Registered Linux user 182657 (added to sig for the benefit of those irritated by it)
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
And you sir are very close minded. You don't want to listen to new ideas and thinking if they don't fall into your narrow guidelines. Ideas were not at all the subject of my e-mail. I was speaking to _attitude_. Miark
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
Miark wrote: I initially thought that Civileme's post was just a bit over the top. After reading this, however, I think he was pretty-much spot-on. I suggest that if Judith wants something more like Windows, she have a look at other OSs like MacOS, OS/2 or BeOS. OS/2 is a single-user OS, and it has quite a few good applications written for it (many of them ports from *nix). I used to run it back in the Warp 3 days (around 1995). [rest snipped] I thought Civileme's post was brilliant. But regardless of whether she was a plant, she's abrasive, offensive, and utterly thankless to the Linux community as a whole. (Isolated thank yous on the list doesn't count.) The Linux community (and especially the Newbie Mandrake community) requires an attitude support, cooperation, and thankfulness. To miss on any of these three things just drags us down, and introduces FUD. We don't need that, and as Civileme did so skillfully, we need to set it straight when it creeps in. Bravo, Civileme. Miark I second that. Good feedback from Civileme. Hang in there, you're doing a great job. Roman Registered Linux User #179293 su is not the root of your problem but the start of a new journey
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
-Mensagem Original- De: civileme [EMAIL PROTECTED] Para: Judith Miner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Enviada em: domingo, 8 de julho de 2001 04:27 Assunto: Re: [newbie] Internet Security And despite the fact that I enjoy your posts, this is my last one to you and note it is on-list. It occurs to me that if you are a Microsoft shill, or executive, that you could be a lot more productive to your company by wasting my time than you could be by being negative on the newbie list. Civileme Interesting ... I had just written an e-mail congratulating Judith on her posts. After reading yours, tough, I must admit they do make some sense...and I haven't seen a reply of hers to your post. I would give a most outraged reply if I were mistaken with a Microshaft plant. And it looks weird to me that she doesn't know how to get the cedille, yet she knows so much about other things. I'm still not convinced she is a plant, tough. Time will tell. On the other hand, I guess that her posts didn't manage to scare anyone, if that was her intention. That linux needs to get easier to configure if it wants to atract Window$ users is a fact. Mandrake has gone a long way towards it by making the installation process easy- it is, in fact much easier and quicker than window$. But there is still work to be done, as I pointed in my last post. Will it be done? It depends on the community attitude towards new users, and their ability to handle micoshaft attacks, which will increase from now on. And it seems that the attacks can be very violent and unexpected indeed... --Jeferson L. Zacco aka Wooky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux registered user #221896 - Computers are used to solve problems that wouldn't exist if computers weren't invented in the first place.
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
Jeferson Lopes Zacco wrote: -Mensagem Original- De: civileme [EMAIL PROTECTED] Para: Judith Miner [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Enviada em: domingo, 8 de julho de 2001 04:27 Assunto: Re: [newbie] Internet Security And despite the fact that I enjoy your posts, this is my last one to you and note it is on-list. It occurs to me that if you are a Microsoft shill, or executive, that you could be a lot more productive to your company by wasting my time than you could be by being negative on the newbie list. Civileme Interesting ... I had just written an e-mail congratulating Judith on her posts. After reading yours, tough, I must admit they do make some sense...and I haven't seen a reply of hers to your post. I would give a most outraged reply if I were mistaken with a Microshaft plant. And it looks weird to me that she doesn't know how to get the cedille, yet she knows so much about other things. I'm still not convinced she is a plant, tough. Time will tell. On the other hand, I guess that her posts didn't manage to scare anyone, if that was her intention. That linux needs to get easier to configure if it wants to atract Window$ users is a fact. Mandrake has gone a long way towards it by making the installation process easy- it is, in fact much easier and quicker than window$. But there is still work to be done, as I pointed in my last post. Will it be done? It depends on the community attitude towards new users, and their ability to handle micoshaft attacks, which will increase from now on. And it seems that the attacks can be very violent and unexpected indeed... --Jeferson L. Zacco aka Wooky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux registered user #221896 - Computers are used to solve problems that wouldn't exist if computers weren't invented in the first place. I have been following Judith Miner's email posts since 1996 through the her Wordstar postings on another news group. It appears that she is not new to the Microsoft Windows OS. This goes back as far as Windows 3.11 and DOS. I don't know if she is really who she says she is... but she has been pi**ssing off at lot of people over the years. She is well known through other newsgroups. My comments are not because I think I'm better than she is nor am I a Linux elitist or guru. However, almost every post on our news group is a lecture on how Linux has not been geared to the normal person who doesn't understand command lines. Well, I say, rather than being spoon fed - as you did with Windows, try the GUI. If you do not understand the command lines, read a good book on Linux(remember books?). If there's something you don't like in the Linux OS, change it. I read that you have a lot experience with the Windows OS. Are you telling us that you learned this all without reading a single Windows or DOS book? This is BS. On one hand, you show a lot of knowledge about TCP/IP but turn around and talk through both sides of your mouth about no knowledge on fire walling etc. etc. etc. Poor me, I am a normal Windows user wanting to be a normal Linux User. Rather than spending time typing up many emails, why don't you provide a wish list to Mandrakesoft for them to review. Or, try another flavor of Linux such as Caldera? I'm sure a lot of your ideas are already in the works, and will be addressed in their future releases. Rather than checking a web page that doesn't necessarily have all of the answers, start reading a book about Linux. I am just a normal user of Linux, who happens to have Windows NT4 installed on another partition for other softwares that will NOT run on Linux. Either way, we encourage any one's constructive input. Roman Registered Linux User #179293 su is not the root of your problem but the start of a new journey
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft OT
On Sunday 08 July 2001 20:17, you wrote: On Sunday 08 July 2001 05:43 pm, Romanator wrote: Tom Brinkman wrote: *_In spite of_* an increasing ignorance and/or preference of Lusers to add closed source/binary only apps and (win)hardware into the mix. (yeah, I'm diggin at y'all nVidia folks again ;) Hey Tom, I have an NVIDIA card and works great. What can I say, it came with the computer. Yeah, an I'm on the crux of gettin a GeForce too. At least I'm aware of the repercussions tho. Like I said, life's about choices ; It's a damn shame that Billy Goat and Dell, et al, put us in this position. Still, if the GeForce creates problems, they're User induced. I'll be the responsible culprit. In the meantime, this ol' (open source) pci Voodoo3 runs like heck on a supposedly buggy IDE-VIA kt133a chipset with a Tbird at 1.5+gig :) At least with the V3 oc'd. FS2000 fps in Winblows (which is all I use it for anymore) runs with all display options maxed, thunder lighting and rain, at 800 feet AGL over very dense scenery with 50+ fps :) Windoze is for kids, an I'm just a big kid ;~ ... out of the clear blue western sky comes Sky King!! :)) FlightGear's not quite ready for prime time. If you know who Sky and Penny are, ever saw the TV show, then ignore my message. Why worry 'bout anything anymore? Be happy, just never use any M$ products to connect to the Net, no matter how well you believe they can be secured, or how old you are. YMMV ;)) OOh! Sky King, I had a crush on Penny. Always wanted to fly after that show. Dated aren't we. -- Dennis M. registered linus user #180842
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
Tom Brinkman wrote: On Sunday 08 July 2001 05:43 pm, Romanator wrote: Tom Brinkman wrote: *_In spite of_* an increasing ignorance and/or preference of Lusers to add closed source/binary only apps and (win)hardware into the mix. (yeah, I'm diggin at y'all nVidia folks again ;) Hey Tom, I have an NVIDIA card and works great. What can I say, it came with the computer. Yeah, an I'm on the crux of gettin a GeForce too. At least I'm aware of the repercussions tho. Like I said, life's about choices ; It's a damn shame that Billy Goat and Dell, et al, put us in this position. Still, if the GeForce creates problems, they're User induced. I'll be the responsible culprit. In the meantime, this ol' (open source) pci Voodoo3 runs like heck on a supposedly buggy IDE-VIA kt133a chipset with a Tbird at 1.5+gig :) At least with the V3 oc'd. FS2000 fps in Winblows (which is all I use it for anymore) runs with all display options maxed, thunder lighting and rain, at 800 feet AGL over very dense scenery with 50+ fps :) Windoze is for kids, an I'm just a big kid ;~ ... out of the clear blue western sky comes Sky King!! :)) FlightGear's not quite ready for prime time. If you know who Sky and Penny are, ever saw the TV show, then ignore my message. Why worry 'bout anything anymore? Be happy, just never use any M$ products to connect to the Net, no matter how well you believe they can be secured, or how old you are. YMMV ;)) -- Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay By the way, I reran my port scan and I passed with flying colors(I had to reinstall using Reiser FS). I like it. I remember Sky King, Sky and Penny. Boy, that brings back memories. However, I've been trying to avoid M$ products. I can't believe how the market has been saturated with junky hardware. Roman Registered Linux User #179293 su is not the root of your problem but the start of a new journey
Re: [newbie] Internet Security -J.Miner and Microsoft
Tom Brinkman wrote: On Sunday 08 July 2001 11:40 am, Jeferson Lopes Zacco wrote: That linux needs to get easier to configure if it wants to atract Window$ users is a fact. Most all 'computer' problems are/or, at least I've found it's best for me, should be approached as User, then Hardware, then (any) OS. Also, I'm not hearing anything about the fact that we use GNU/Linux in this thread. Linux is only the kernel, everything else is GNU contributed proccesses and apps written to run on it. It's obvious (at least to me ;) that distros like RH, SuSe, and specially Mandrake have made great strides in gathering together these apps/proccesses, and 'user friendliness' configuration and coordination tools in just the past few years. *_In spite of_* an increasing ignorance and/or preference of Lusers to add closed source/binary only apps and (win)hardware into the mix. (yeah, I'm diggin at y'all nVidia folks again ;) It's to the point where I believe Linux has far surpassed any M$ offering in ease of installation and use by computer users on *real* computers. Those that insist on approaching their use of the computer problems as OS, then hardware, and lastly themselves will always have the hardest time ... _any OS_. In this I cite the use of non-(win) -hardware as the users fault. One very important exception to my above rants is security. Then if you're a M$ (OS, or applications for it) user, blame the OS first ;) Mainly because it's all closed, binary only ... and there's no viable way to secure and administer it. It's win-hard/software! So I pose the question... why the need for this seemingly absurd (to me anyhow) desire for Linux to attract Winblows users? Why add people who, usually in ignorance, sometimes arrogance, most often blame the OS for their problems to the Linux base of users? They could only be part of the problem, not the solution! Seems to me we already gotten a large recent influx who want to approach problems back'a$$wards as OS, hardware, but not themselves. Life's about choices, YMMV -- Tom Brinkman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Galveston Bay Hey Tom, I have an NVIDIA card and works great. What can I say, it came with the computer. Roman Registered Linux User #179293 su is not the root of your problem but the start of a new journey
