Re: [newbie] NOW: philosophy of the Newby book
Hi Tiny, On Thu, 26 Jul 2001 07:02, you manipulated electrons to produce: John, IMHO: you are spot-on with the intent and benevolence of your project. I have had to learn most of what I know from doccumentation, beginner to [self-described ;] expert... LOL I would love to help you in any way I can. As nearly a new immigrant to the Linux world, I have not yet been spoiled by intuitive knowlege... though I would love to get things done right. Thanks Tiny, the big need is for people who have survived the early days and can tell us about the things that caught them out - gotchas as I call them. The idea is not to produce YAM, but a guide book TO the Manuals. Little things like: x program takes up to a minute to get its act together and gives no indication what it is doing... be patient. Do NOT hit CTL+ALT+BSPACE Or The mysterious process of being able to enable the KDE Doc Search Engine. I REMEMBER bits of Fortran. What you needed was someone to give you a glossary of terms - THEN with those magic passwords you could go .. see? I forgot them. Like cron from Unix. This *is* NEWBY land, so post them here and I can pick them up on the way through as the answers come in and add the wisdom to the pile. Which BTW, seems to be gravitating toward a flat database with good search capability. It is going to have to be updatable every 20 minutes it would seem. The key solution guide to me is GUI unless impossible as the method. -- Cheers, John http://counter.li.org GO HERE IF YOU SUPPORT LINUX! Fablor is now Webhosting?? What on earth for?? Info here: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (it's only an Autoresponder) :-)
Re: [newbie] NOW: philosophy of the Newby book
John, as you compile your book, please consider that while this e-mail list is freely distributed and may be fair use copied, We can not be sure that everyone whom contributed a question or a response is willing to see that question or response in someone other than MandrakeSoft inc.'s copyright protected work, as a book would/should be. In My Opinion, and I ain't an ex-spurt in this either, (but have had a little experience in having websites plagiarized, and in the legal matters involved from the side of the victim,) please consider that a release should be signed by everyone whom you quote directly. Also, please consider this my notice to you that I DO NOT, at this time, give you permission to directly quote myself or any of my postings, an any manner other than fair use (I don't have a problem with your computer putting this in a disk cache for instance, but I do not want it to see it in a book that is charged for by anyone other than MandrakeSoft.) thanks. Ed Tharp On Sunday 22 July 2001 19:32, John Rigby wrote: Hi Roman folks, Actually the whole point of the project I envisaged from Day One was to AVOID the consequences of too many choices ( philosophically, choices=conflicts) and to help the BASIC USER community not the even the ADVANCED USERS - they LIKE being annoyed! :-) In fact, it is germinating into a two part construct: 1. ABSOLUTELY New Users (first computer) 2. TRANSITIONAL Users. Those escaping The Other Thing. But remember, it is specific to Mandrake. One must call a halt somewhere. Even Mandrakes earlier Distros have problems with later ones. AND - most computer users 95% of them out there have no idea that there is anything else other than Doze and the idea that there are many different Versions even of it .. Comments below * On Sun, 22 Jul 2001 01:58, you manipulated electrons to produce: Hi John, I don't think newbies should always stick with a strict code of what to do and what not to do or learn. This stifles the learning process. * There is only one way to learn to read. Very limited and non-confusing choices as first. ( Running words together comes much later) Otherwise the learning curve and worse, the frustration curve increases exponentially. -- Remember Microsoft? Linux gives you the freedom to learn about new apps., features and coding. And, if you don't like something, you have the option of modifying the code. Those newbies that venture into the unknown can learn a lot. ** Modifying the Code Users like me - the other 90% don't want to do our own oilchanges and tuneups - we look for a reliable mechanic - and get on with what we are good at, instead. :-) Ofcourse, you can stick with the basics and include additional notes on configuring tar balls. There are large number of applications that must be configured first, followed by make and make install. BASICS?? Dear Roman, unless it works automatically thru the Mandrake installer, the rest of us won't be getting stuck in any tar pits. We only want to DO things with the programs. Write great novels, pay the bills, talk sex on the internet safely, figure out our accounts - and most critically - make a buck out there. somehow. Did you know for instance, that there is a would-be commercial Website out there for every eight surfers? I think this should be added to the book. Newbies will be encountering this more often than not. Additional notes can be appended by the user or posted on Mandrakeforum. Many of the rpms included with the Mandrake distribution were created by or for Mandrake. In addition, over the next several months additional rpms and apps will be added to the list, by way of CD distribution, or free download. However, I question creating a newbie list that must be moderated, with questions and comments censored for all users. ** pregnantcisely. This whole idea is to *more adequately* cover the narrower field of Mandrake - a big enough job in itself! Even censorship is a much misused and misunderstood thing. It has two sides: 1. Someone going to the trouble to categorise things - like movie ratings. 2. Denial of access. I really appreciate people going to a lot of trouble to categorise things to save me a lot of time lost. For parents it is a godsend: movie certification. EXCEPT that they warn against things like nudity and ok things like driving an auto at 100 m.p.h. in city streets and slaughtering people. :-( DENIAL, on the other hand, i object to greatly. The wonder of the internet is that you - for the most part - can find your interest and your level of it readily. I even object to objections to pornography - providing it is censored in the sense that I am not tricked into viewing it, but it is a CATEGORY and simply available. Everything you propose as having available IS
Re: [newbie] NOW: philosophy of the Newby book
Ummm John? I don't think Ed meant any harm by his comments. He just doesn't want his comments directly used in a publication without his permission (but you can paraphrase), which I think is perfectly acceptable (they are his commments, after all). I believe his concern is that you may be profiting from this book at the expense of the hard work of others. If you spent your free time giving free advice only to have the person you're helping publish it and make a million dollars, wouldn't you be annoyed? From what I remember about what you said right at the beginning, you are writing a freely-available e-book to help both newbies to adjust with GNU/Linux and MandrakeSoft to help them make their distro better. Is that correct? If so, I have no problems with that, and I don't think Ed does either. He doesn't seem to mind if MandrakeSoft (and only MandrakeSoft) profits from the book, since they'll plow the money back into open source. As long as your book is freely available to others (as I believe it is), I shall contribute all I can. This is in the spirit of sharing and open source (or in this case, open documentation). I suggest that you rethink your anti-Ed mail filter. Ed has made contributed a lot to the Newbie List, and the information he can give can be invaluable. Once again, I don't think there was any ill-feeling in his message; it was simply a disclaimer to protect his rights. Ed, feel free to correct me if my assumptions are wrong. On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 21:45, John Rigby wrote: Hello there Ed Tharp and hey WHOA! On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 21:01, you manipulated electrons to produce: logically edited please consider this my notice to you that I DO NOT, at this time, give you permission to directly quote myself or any of my postings, an any manner other than fair use (I don't have a problem with your computer putting this in a disk cache for instance, but I do not want it to see it in a book that is charged for by anyone other than MandrakeSoft.) thanks. Ed Tharp This is not the sort of place that your post is appropriate for. The last thing a good newbie list needs is bar-room lawyers. Had you done your own due diligence ( I also do happen to be a bush lawyer) you would know that: 1. This list is not your typical flambe-type list to warrant such a comment. This place *really* is user friendly. 2. That I carefully made the points of possible contention clear earlier. 3. Due notice has been taken of your attitude and self-considered position as an expert. Your postings will be ignored. 4. Your address is on my filter list as of now. This message will be deleted -in fact shredded - in thirty seconds from now. OK? JFYI: Lists like these have only one real purpose and that is for the willing few to voluntarily help their many neighbours. They only work when the helped in turn, contribute. A thought worth remembering when you next expect help out in the cyberbog. John Rigby http://counter.li.org GO HERE IF YOU SUPPORT LINUX! Fablor is now Webhosting?? What on earth for?? Info here: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (it's only an Autoresponder) :-) -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson
Re: [newbie] NOW: philosophy of the Newby book
Hi John I agree with Miark. Also, as Sridhar said, I don't think Ed meant any harm. He merely pointed out something you/we need to be aware of. Don't be too quick to judge. Lighten up a little :-) Keep up the good work with your book and good luck. Cheers skinky - Original Message - From: Miark [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi John, If Ed doesn't want to be quoted, it's not only appropriate for him to say so, but valuable for him to do so on the list where it can give others something important--and maybe new--to think about on the subject. This is quite in harmony with the spirit of this list, and quite appropriate. Miark _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [newbie] NOW: philosophy of the Newby book
Thank you you are correct On Tuesday 24 July 2001 09:49, Sridhar Dhanapalan wrote: Ummm John? I don't think Ed meant any harm by his comments. He just doesn't want his comments directly used in a publication without his permission (but you can paraphrase), which I think is perfectly acceptable (they are his commments, after all). I believe his concern is that you may be profiting from this book at the expense of the hard work of others. If you spent your free time giving free advice only to have the person you're helping publish it and make a million dollars, wouldn't you be annoyed? From what I remember about what you said right at the beginning, you are writing a freely-available e-book to help both newbies to adjust with GNU/Linux and MandrakeSoft to help them make their distro better. Is that correct? If so, I have no problems with that, and I don't think Ed does either. He doesn't seem to mind if MandrakeSoft (and only MandrakeSoft) profits from the book, since they'll plow the money back into open source. As long as your book is freely available to others (as I believe it is), I shall contribute all I can. This is in the spirit of sharing and open source (or in this case, open documentation). I suggest that you rethink your anti-Ed mail filter. Ed has made contributed a lot to the Newbie List, and the information he can give can be invaluable. Once again, I don't think there was any ill-feeling in his message; it was simply a disclaimer to protect his rights. Ed, feel free to correct me if my assumptions are wrong. On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 21:45, John Rigby wrote: Hello there Ed Tharp and hey WHOA! On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 21:01, you manipulated electrons to produce: logically edited please consider this my notice to you that I DO NOT, at this time, give you permission to directly quote myself or any of my postings, an any manner other than fair use (I don't have a problem with your computer putting this in a disk cache for instance, but I do not want it to see it in a book that is charged for by anyone other than MandrakeSoft.) thanks. Ed Tharp This is not the sort of place that your post is appropriate for. The last thing a good newbie list needs is bar-room lawyers. Had you done your own due diligence ( I also do happen to be a bush lawyer) you would know that: 1. This list is not your typical flambe-type list to warrant such a comment. This place *really* is user friendly. 2. That I carefully made the points of possible contention clear earlier. 3. Due notice has been taken of your attitude and self-considered position as an expert. Your postings will be ignored. 4. Your address is on my filter list as of now. This message will be deleted -in fact shredded - in thirty seconds from now. OK? JFYI: Lists like these have only one real purpose and that is for the willing few to voluntarily help their many neighbours. They only work when the helped in turn, contribute. A thought worth remembering when you next expect help out in the cyberbog. John Rigby http://counter.li.org GO HERE IF YOU SUPPORT LINUX! Fablor is now Webhosting?? What on earth for?? Info here: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (it's only an Autoresponder) :-)
Re: [newbie] NOW: philosophy of the Newby book
Hi Skinky, On Wed, 25 Jul 2001 09:04, you manipulated electrons to produce: Hi John I agree with Miark. Also, as Sridhar said, I don't think Ed meant any harm. He merely pointed out something you/we need to be aware of. Don't be too quick to judge. Lighten up a little :-) Keep up the good work with your book and good luck. ** My life is all light! Except for my M8 install... :-) There is an old (True) Alchemic saying: Everything is a reflection. Judge and be judged, but, observe and and be rewarded It roughly means YOU set up your terms of interaction. That's what I do and did. No judgement, just observation based on looong experience of identifying ducks. Ed is very welcome to his beliefs. He made them very clear, if you recall the structure of his post. Very clear. So far the voting is actually 25% defending his position of non-contribution freely. But now, I think we should end it. It is getting way off topic and was not really worth the time and electrons manipulated and expended to date. He has a specific view - I respected it. Don't agree with his concept or presentation of it, but I don't have to. So I didn't. I complied with his request fully, that's all. -- Cheers, John http://counter.li.org GO HERE IF YOU SUPPORT LINUX! Fablor is now Webhosting?? What on earth for?? Info here: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (it's only an Autoresponder) :-)
Re: [newbie] NOW: philosophy of the Newby book
Hi Jamie On Tue, 24 Jul 2001 22:49, you manipulated electrons to produce: I fully agree, his response was not necessary, also on my filter list. Allthough i doubt a little the use of your book, please feel free to include any of my newbie banter G I was once asked years ago, how come our company could design training systems that worked in impossible situations. Answer: 1. I was raised and began my career in Australia. That is like being marooned on a desert island with a candle, a bell and a book and nothing else.. you learn to improvise fast, or die. :-) 2. NEVER let system or product experts write anything by way of instruction, only product explanation. I once learned to be an Aluminium Welder by having to produce a manual for use in Third World Countries. Concept: If *I* can understand it, anyone can. :-) Epilogue: THIS booklet will be what *I* would have given a lot to have two weeks ago. Or today... (sigh) :-) -- Cheers, John http://counter.li.org GO HERE IF YOU SUPPORT LINUX! Fablor is now Webhosting?? What on earth for?? Info here: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (it's only an Autoresponder) :-)
Re: [newbie] NOW: philosophy of the Newby book
John Rigby wrote: Roman, Have you looked at TWIKI? I am trying to find time to do it, but I actually have to make a living unlike all you rich guys who have all day to play with exotic programs :-) http://www.twiki.org It looks like a great collaboration solution and I am planning to get it up on the fablor Site a.s.a.p. Many hands make heavy work light Cheers, John On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:27, you manipulated electrons to produce: Hi John, No problem. The K.I.S.S approach is the best. I have a pleasant feeling this will turn into fine book for first time users of Mandrake only distros. We should find additional people that would like to contribute and divide up the work. What are your thoughts? -- Cheers, John Fablor now Webhosting?? What on earth for?? Info here: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (it's only an Autoresponder) :-) Rich guys? I wish. Hey, I have to put in 12 -14 hours a day. Is there a download for the program? BTW I'm checking out TWIKI. Roman Registered Linux User #179293 su is not the root of your problem but the start of a new journey
Re: [newbie] NOW: philosophy of the Newby book
Hi Roman folks, Actually the whole point of the project I envisaged from Day One was to AVOID the consequences of too many choices ( philosophically, choices=conflicts) and to help the BASIC USER community not the even the ADVANCED USERS - they LIKE being annoyed! :-) In fact, it is germinating into a two part construct: 1. ABSOLUTELY New Users (first computer) 2. TRANSITIONAL Users. Those escaping The Other Thing. But remember, it is specific to Mandrake. One must call a halt somewhere. Even Mandrakes earlier Distros have problems with later ones. AND - most computer users 95% of them out there have no idea that there is anything else other than Doze and the idea that there are many different Versions even of it .. Comments below * On Sun, 22 Jul 2001 01:58, you manipulated electrons to produce: Hi John, I don't think newbies should always stick with a strict code of what to do and what not to do or learn. This stifles the learning process. * There is only one way to learn to read. Very limited and non-confusing choices as first. ( Running words together comes much later) Otherwise the learning curve and worse, the frustration curve increases exponentially. -- Remember Microsoft? Linux gives you the freedom to learn about new apps., features and coding. And, if you don't like something, you have the option of modifying the code. Those newbies that venture into the unknown can learn a lot. ** Modifying the Code Users like me - the other 90% don't want to do our own oilchanges and tuneups - we look for a reliable mechanic - and get on with what we are good at, instead. :-) Ofcourse, you can stick with the basics and include additional notes on configuring tar balls. There are large number of applications that must be configured first, followed by make and make install. BASICS?? Dear Roman, unless it works automatically thru the Mandrake installer, the rest of us won't be getting stuck in any tar pits. We only want to DO things with the programs. Write great novels, pay the bills, talk sex on the internet safely, figure out our accounts - and most critically - make a buck out there. somehow. Did you know for instance, that there is a would-be commercial Website out there for every eight surfers? I think this should be added to the book. Newbies will be encountering this more often than not. Additional notes can be appended by the user or posted on Mandrakeforum. Many of the rpms included with the Mandrake distribution were created by or for Mandrake. In addition, over the next several months additional rpms and apps will be added to the list, by way of CD distribution, or free download. However, I question creating a newbie list that must be moderated, with questions and comments censored for all users. ** pregnantcisely. This whole idea is to *more adequately* cover the narrower field of Mandrake - a big enough job in itself! Even censorship is a much misused and misunderstood thing. It has two sides: 1. Someone going to the trouble to categorise things - like movie ratings. 2. Denial of access. I really appreciate people going to a lot of trouble to categorise things to save me a lot of time lost. For parents it is a godsend: movie certification. EXCEPT that they warn against things like nudity and ok things like driving an auto at 100 m.p.h. in city streets and slaughtering people. :-( DENIAL, on the other hand, i object to greatly. The wonder of the internet is that you - for the most part - can find your interest and your level of it readily. I even object to objections to pornography - providing it is censored in the sense that I am not tricked into viewing it, but it is a CATEGORY and simply available. Everything you propose as having available IS available, Roman, what isn't available is the sort of thing that is most necessary of all: a K.I.S.S. *introduction* - a gentle one - to the vast majority of people out there who really do *only* want to use programs as tools and not for the excitement of being able to *eventually* get it to work, somehow. :-) But we really need both the pros like Civileme and Sridhar who volunteer their help and the super-users like you. Then we need me to translate it into understandable and usable form for the utter non-geeks like me. It takes one to know one, you know. :-) -- Cheers, John Fablor now Webhosting?? What on earth for?? Info here: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (it's only an Autoresponder) :-)
Re: [newbie] NOW: philosophy of the Newby book
Roman, Have you looked at TWIKI? I am trying to find time to do it, but I actually have to make a living unlike all you rich guys who have all day to play with exotic programs :-) http://www.twiki.org It looks like a great collaboration solution and I am planning to get it up on the fablor Site a.s.a.p. Many hands make heavy work light Cheers, John On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:27, you manipulated electrons to produce: Hi John, No problem. The K.I.S.S approach is the best. I have a pleasant feeling this will turn into fine book for first time users of Mandrake only distros. We should find additional people that would like to contribute and divide up the work. What are your thoughts? -- Cheers, John Fablor now Webhosting?? What on earth for?? Info here: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (it's only an Autoresponder) :-)
