Re: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions
1. After reading this article ... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2001436280_linuxgroup08.html Please put that back. :) I couldn't access it. :) I am left wondering; where does Intel stand in the debate? Are they officially on the M$ side of things are are they attempting to play Even if that's relevant, AMD makes better processors. See tom's hardware. AMD (ca 2001 when I put this box together, at that time the Pentium 4 had just surfaced) is better and faster at the same clock speed than P4. There are still serious issues like cache and pipeline stalls in the P4, unless Intel fixed that since. If Intel is more MS-friendly than they should be, I don't know. I'll stick with AMD. I, for one, don't want a computer that keeps track of my existence and reports to MS - I know I exist, and don't need any help in that area. Of course, I'm referring to the increasing possibility of DMCA-aware computing, with processors that detect or refuse to run stuff.) I can sum up the SCO effort in 2 words: unjust enrichment. I read another article which made the point that at one time SCO (they acquired Caldera, right?) was actively trying to market a commercial Linux distro. I never opted for Caldera, but I read the reviews and such. Now, they did much of that through GPL, no? Did SCO commit any *non GPL* changes to the Linux kernel? No - they would have been rejected by Linus. (Anyone got his input?) AIX is a totally different animal than Linux. The kernels are different. How dare SCO tell IBM that every customer is now using an illegal product. (we use AIX + Pick at work). But isn't that SCO's argument? That Linux got polluted by source from AIX? Redhat, Mandrake, debian, etc. have not signed contracts with SCO to my knowledge. I know I didn't. I can't be in violation of a non-existant license. SCO will never see any money from me. Might as well tell them that if Linux did not exist, millions of people probably would be pirating SCO, or perhaps Windows. neutral in all of this. I have never used an AMD processor and I wasn't AMD is superior. license for software they shipped me under the pretense that it was 'free'? Was it shrinkwrapped? Did it have a non-GPL type license to it? There have been precedences in the user community reactions over the years - involving en masse switching to the competition. For instance, rememmber SEA versus Phil Katz? The result of that was thousands of BBSes switching to ZIP, almost overnight. GIF licensing threats from Unisys engendered a similar reaction, more recently. So if SCO wins, I'll switch to FreeBSD :). I'd rather not, though. FreeBSD is fine, but I think it would require a lot more post-install setup than Linux distros do ATM. I could be wrong on that - I haven't tried it in a very long time. -=Thinker David E. Fox Thanks for letting me [EMAIL PROTECTED]change magnetic patterns [EMAIL PROTECTED] on your hard disk. --- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions
11 2003 20:39, / Miark : Manolis LX said: clockspeed == performance propaganda has been one of the greatest lies foisted on the gullible computer user public that I've seen. I am tired to read from many people the there is only one way propaganda between two companies. Maybe because you don't get it? While there may be propaganda in both directions, it flows more heavily from Intel. LX was very specific regarding the benefits of AMD CPUs. That's not propaganda, that's fact. Yes. Intel does more propaganda in a real cruel way because now it happens to sell more CPUs from AMD, and so it has many ways to do this. But I think this works vice versa. If AMD was in the top of the market the same thing would happened. They are COMPANIES , they want to make money, they want to take over the market in their field. There is no such thing like a huge monster (Intel) that tries to destroy the little neighbour (AMD). Have you ever heard of Microsoft? Yes in this you are right. My arguement doesn't work in the example of MS. :) Is there any propagandistic content in the less clockspeed than the real one in AMD XP series? Their names (2200+ etc) are not a marketing deception. First, because they are not advertised as speeds. I know that , you know that... but... Tell that to a newbie in the world of computers that wants to buy a PC for internet and games, and thinks that is a complicated TV. You must convince me that this user will NOT take acount of the big number of phenomenal speed in the advertising pamphlet. Generally I think that no one must be in the side of one and only one company in this argument between the two. Both have made great progress in CPU production. Sometimes one is the better solution ( northwood vs XP ) sometimes the other (AMD64 vs Itanium). You've got it backwards. Generally you should take sides with the company that does consistently better work, and have the brains to make exceptions to the rule as circumstances dictate. Intel may eventually raise the standard of their products on a consistent basis. If and when they do, tech-heads here and elsewhere re-consider their positions. Tech-heads are smart people. But in the meantime, it _is_ reasonable position to side with AMD. I can disagree in the main concept of the above though... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions
On Sun, Aug 10, 2003 at 10:26:20AM -0700, David E. Fox wrote: I can sum up the SCO effort in 2 words: unjust enrichment. I read an article talking about the $CO CEO or whatever his title is; he's made a career of enriching himself and his employers through litigation. He's been very successful at suing companies for IP infringement. His mother must be very proud. Todd Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions
On Mon, Aug 11, 2003 at 02:43:33AM +0800, Frankie wrote: I personally think that anyone buying Intel CPU's are nuts... You pay at least 40% more usually, and for office apps, they are marginally slower then the much cheaper AMD.. snip How about the centrino? Looking into tablet pc's and centrino seems to be all the rage. Todd -- Name that tune #18: When you own a big chunk of the bloody third world the babies just come with the scenery. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions
On Wed, 2003-08-13 at 08:06, Haywiremac wrote: On 13 Aug 2003 06:38:32 +1000 Stephen Kuhn [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: OMG - they musta had that naked dinner meeting! nah, i'm *just barely* mature enough to give credit where credit is due, and to keep the two lists seperate insofar as personal feelings. just barely... hehehehehehhee.he said barehehehhehehehehee..(in a Beavis kinda voice) -- Wed Aug 13 08:30:01 EST 2003 08:30:01 up 9 days, 12:18, 1 user, load average: 1.08, 1.14, 1.11 - |____ |kuhn media australia| | /-oo /| |'-. |http://kma.0catch.com | | .\__/ || | | || | _ / `._ \|_|_.-' |stephen kuhn| | | / \__.`=._) (_ | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | - linux user #:267497 linux machine #:194239 * MDK 9.1+ RH 9 Mandrake Linux Kernel 2.4.21-11mdk Cooker for i586 - * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious. -- Schrodinger's Moggy explained (Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions
I know that , you know that... but... Tell that to a newbie in the world of computers that wants to buy a PC for internet and games, and thinks that is a complicated TV. You must convince me that this user will NOT take acount of the big number of phenomenal speed in the advertising pamphlet. But that is the whole point.. If a newbie see's that a P4 has 3006 MHZ clock speed, and the top of the range AMD has a clock speed of about 2200 MHZ, they will wrongly think that the P4 is by far the faster CPU, and we know that is simply not true.. Remember that the reason that the P4 started at 1.4 gig back in the days when the PIII was only at 1100mhz was because at the same clock speed, the PIII seriously outperformed the P4 as well. The only reason Intel went to the P4 was marketing, they knew they could not clock the PIII much faster and it was on a roughly even footing with the AMD chip at the time, by giving the P3 a lobotomy they created the P4, which since it was missing much of the hardware of the PIII was able to clock much faster.. even though it did alot less per clock cycle.. but that doesnt' matter cos it was a Marketing decision and up till now MHZ RULES BABY so they used it.. the fact that its really bullshit has never stopped anyone from doing this sort of thing before.. and this is no exception. So if newbies compare the real clock speeds of P4 and XP, they will wrongly assume they are not in the same league.. Hense the speed rating instead of the clock speed.. now at least newbies can choose a CPU knowing roughly how it will perform compared to the others. Technically, the AMD rating is not compared to the P4, its compared to the Athlon 1.. the first athlon.. AMD made that point just after they started the ratings scheme. rgds Franki Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions
Manolis LX said: clockspeed == performance propaganda has been one of the greatest lies foisted on the gullible computer user public that I've seen. I am tired to read from many people the there is only one way propaganda between two companies. Maybe because you don't get it? While there may be propaganda in both directions, it flows more heavily from Intel. LX was very specific regarding the benefits of AMD CPUs. That's not propaganda, that's fact. What has made the reputation of these companies? Intel has a reputation based on its Intel Inside ad campaign. AMD has a reputation built on better performance and better features at a lower price. If you think these facts are irrelevant because they're both big companies, you should re-think your position. They are COMPANIES , they want to make money, they want to take over the market in their field. There is no such thing like a huge monster (Intel) that tries to destroy the little neighbour (AMD). Have you ever heard of Microsoft? Is there any propagandistic content in the less clockspeed than the real one in AMD XP series? Their names (2200+ etc) are not a marketing deception. First, because they are not advertised as speeds. Second, the real speeds are not hidden (and if they are, it's the retailer's fault, not AMD's). Third, they're meaningful numbers that rate performance relative to common standard (Intel CPUs). Besides which, the XP naming schemes illustrates _exactly_ what LX said about the clockspeed propaganda: AMD CPUs do more work with fewer clock cycles. In fact, I think AMD is obligated to indicate relative performance more prominently than clock speed because the clock speed number is so meaningless in comparison. Generally I think that no one must be in the side of one and only one company in this argument between the two. Both have made great progress in CPU production. Sometimes one is the better solution ( northwood vs XP ) sometimes the other (AMD64 vs Itanium). You've got it backwards. Generally you should take sides with the company that does consistently better work, and have the brains to make exceptions to the rule as circumstances dictate. Intel may eventually raise the standard of their products on a consistent basis. If and when they do, tech-heads here and elsewhere re-consider their positions. Tech-heads are smart people. But in the meantime, it _is_ reasonable position to side with AMD. Miark Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions
On 13 Aug 2003 06:38:32 +1000 Stephen Kuhn [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: OMG - they musta had that naked dinner meeting! nah, i'm *just barely* mature enough to give credit where credit is due, and to keep the two lists seperate insofar as personal feelings. just barely... -- HaywireMac The more laws and order are made prominent, the more thieves and robbers there will be. -- Lao Tsu Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions
11 2003 04:06, / Lyvim Xaphir : On Sun, 2003-08-10 at 13:26, David E. Fox wrote: The clockspeed == performance propaganda has been one of the greatest lies foisted on the gullible computer user public that I've seen. I am tired to read from many people the there is only one way propaganda between two companies. They are COMPANIES , they want to make money, they want to take over the market in their field. There is no such thing like a huge monster (Intel) that tries to destroy the little neighbour (AMD). They are really huge companies. They both fight with good and bad means each other for more money. you said about the clockspeed==performance propaganda. Is there any propagandistic content in the less clockspeed than the real one in AMD XP series? Generally I think that no one must be in the side of one and only one company in this argument between the two. Both have made great progress in CPU production. Sometimes one is the better solution ( northwood vs XP ) sometimes the other (AMD64 vs Itanium). sorry for my english Friendly, Manolis Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions
On Sun, 2003-08-10 at 13:26, David E. Fox wrote: 1. After reading this article ... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2001436280_linuxgroup08.html Please put that back. :) I couldn't access it. :) I am left wondering; where does Intel stand in the debate? Are they officially on the M$ side of things are are they attempting to play Even if that's relevant, AMD makes better processors. See tom's hardware. AMD (ca 2001 when I put this box together, at that time the Pentium 4 had just surfaced) is better and faster at the same clock speed than P4. There are still serious issues like cache and pipeline stalls in the P4, unless Intel fixed that since. If Intel is more MS-friendly than they should be, I don't know. I'll stick with AMD. This is an excellent decision and you are absolutely correct in what you are saying about the P4. The P4 had a bunch of error correction and lookahead prediction circuitry ripped out so that they could clock the chip higher. This amounts to retrograde evolution. Meanwhile the Athlon series has continued to build on past experience and refine it's designs instead of ripping them out in order to clock higher. The clockspeed == performance propaganda has been one of the greatest lies foisted on the gullible computer user public that I've seen. The lie is evident when you compare an Athlon running at 2 gig to a P4 running at the same speed. The Athlon smokes them every time. The ONLY way a P4 can get ahead of the game is by clocking higher; meanwhile because of it's inferior pipeline, cache handling, error handling, and prediction systems, it is wasting huge amounts of cpu cycles. The Athlon, by comparison, throws away almost no valuable cpu cycles because it's design gets the job done correctly on the first cycle. (generally speaking.) Therefore naturally you see more work getting done correctly in the Athlons than in the Pentiums at the same speeds; and this truth is always reflected in the benchmarks. When you see one or two P4's at the top of the Quake benchmarks as the highest clocking processors in the benchmarks turning out what look to be better numbers, you then need to examine carefully what performance you are getting per cpu cycle. It is a fact that the Athlon will come out on top every time. And in order to get that P4, you have to shell out a huge amount of cash compared to what you pay for an AMD. Most of the time the people that pump out inordinate amounts of cash for high-clocking P4's are using their pocketbooks more than they are their brains. One more thing I've noticed over the years. The AMD based equipment is vastly easier and more flexible to work with. It's more tweakable, more adaptablejust plain easier to work with. The processors are more overclockable. This is why the AMD's have a HUGE contingent of fans on the net, where whole websites have been devoted exclusively to AMD. There is a large population of overclockers that buy AMD almost solely on matter of principle. There's alot of trust involved between AMD users and their public. I, for one, don't want a computer that keeps track of my existence and reports to MS - I know I exist, and don't need any help in that area. Of course, I'm referring to the increasing possibility of DMCA-aware computing, with processors that detect or refuse to run stuff.) I can sum up the SCO effort in 2 words: unjust enrichment. I read another article which made the point that at one time SCO (they acquired Caldera, right?) was actively trying to market a commercial Linux distro. I never opted for Caldera, but I read the reviews and such. Now, they did much of that through GPL, no? Did SCO commit any *non GPL* changes to the Linux kernel? No - they would have been rejected by Linus. (Anyone got his input?) AIX is a totally different animal than Linux. The kernels are different. How dare SCO tell IBM that every customer is now using an illegal product. (we use AIX + Pick at work). But isn't that SCO's argument? That Linux got polluted by source from AIX? Redhat, Mandrake, debian, etc. have not signed contracts with SCO to my knowledge. I know I didn't. I can't be in violation of a non-existant license. SCO will never see any money from me. Might as well tell them that if Linux did not exist, millions of people probably would be pirating SCO, or perhaps Windows. neutral in all of this. I have never used an AMD processor and I wasn't AMD is superior. license for software they shipped me under the pretense that it was 'free'? Was it shrinkwrapped? Did it have a non-GPL type license to it? There have been precedences in the user community reactions over the years - involving en masse switching to the competition. For instance, rememmber SEA versus Phil Katz? The result of that was thousands of BBSes switching to ZIP, almost overnight. GIF licensing threats from Unisys engendered a similar reaction,
Re: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions
On Tue, 2003-08-12 at 20:13, Haywiremac wrote: On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 03:14:02 +0300 manolis [EMAIL PROTECTED] uttered: I can disagree in the main concept of the above though... Despite how LX and I get along on the OT list, he knows his shit OMG - they musta had that naked dinner meeting! (g) -- Wed Aug 13 06:35:00 EST 2003 06:35:00 up 9 days, 10:23, 1 user, load average: 1.64, 1.61, 1.49 - |____ |kuhn media australia| | /-oo /| |'-. |http://kma.0catch.com | | .\__/ || | | || | _ / `._ \|_|_.-' |stephen kuhn| | | / \__.`=._) (_ | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | - linux user #:267497 linux machine #:194239 * MDK 9.1+ RH 9 Mandrake Linux Kernel 2.4.21-11mdk Cooker for i586 - * This message was composed on a 100% Microsoft free computer * Many a man in love with a dimple makes the mistake of marrying the whole girl. -- Stephen Leacock Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions
On Sunday 10 August 2003 01:43 pm, Frankie wrote: I personally think that anyone buying Intel CPU's are nuts... You pay at least 40% more usually, and for office apps, they are marginally slower then the much cheaper AMD.. Of course your upside is that you will get a bit faster framerate running Quake3 with the Intel, but since both are totally playable and most of the work is getting shifted to the GPU (graphics card) nowdays.. the difference is less and less. Go with AMD to save money ahead of any other reason, but since you mention it, Intel have shown themselves to be very M$ friendly.. much more so then AMD I think. I will never buy another intel machine.. I don't believe in paying more just for the name.. I want the job done as cheaply as possible.. As for the SCO thing, to hell with them, if you didn't see a license agreement with non GPL terms in it.. you are fine.. and since unitedlinux had all sorts of stipulations in it, I suspect SCO would have been shot down had they tried to introduce anything non GPl into their license. rgds Franki -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thinker Sent: Monday, 11 August 2003 2:47 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions I know this is a little off topic, but I was hoping to hear as many opinions on these questions as possible. 1. After reading this article ... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/200143628 0_linuxgroup08.html I am left wondering; where does Intel stand in the debate? Are they officially on the M$ side of things are are they attempting to play neutral in all of this. I have never used an AMD processor and I wasn't really planning on it, but if Intel is out to hurt Open Source, I will have to change my stance. 2. After reading this article ... http://www.vnunet.com/News/1142837 I am wondering, what about UnitedLinux? Isn't SCO part of an ongoing pro Linux project with SuSE and others? Does SCO expect me to pay $699 for a license for software they shipped me under the pretense that it was 'free'? Honestly, I went to United Linux about 2 months ago and signed up for the shipment of the free software discs. If I install them, and then pay the $699 can I not sue them for fraud? Just a few questions from a newbie trying to make sense out of all this posturing. Thanks for your time. -=Thinker But, but bbut, intel's run cooler. Course my AMDs may be a tad hotter but I don't have a problem with them slowing down or dropping out as long as I keep the fans fanning. : ) No intels here. Not being a snob about it, I just have a hard time spending the extra dollars for something when I can get just as satisfactory a product for less. AMD is in all my computers. -- Dennis M. linux user #180842 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions
I personally think that anyone buying Intel CPU's are nuts... You pay at least 40% more usually, and for office apps, they are marginally slower then the much cheaper AMD.. Of course your upside is that you will get a bit faster framerate running Quake3 with the Intel, but since both are totally playable and most of the work is getting shifted to the GPU (graphics card) nowdays.. the difference is less and less. Go with AMD to save money ahead of any other reason, but since you mention it, Intel have shown themselves to be very M$ friendly.. much more so then AMD I think. I will never buy another intel machine.. I don't believe in paying more just for the name.. I want the job done as cheaply as possible.. As for the SCO thing, to hell with them, if you didn't see a license agreement with non GPL terms in it.. you are fine.. and since unitedlinux had all sorts of stipulations in it, I suspect SCO would have been shot down had they tried to introduce anything non GPl into their license. rgds Franki -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Thinker Sent: Monday, 11 August 2003 2:47 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions I know this is a little off topic, but I was hoping to hear as many opinions on these questions as possible. 1. After reading this article ... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/200143628 0_linuxgroup08.html I am left wondering; where does Intel stand in the debate? Are they officially on the M$ side of things are are they attempting to play neutral in all of this. I have never used an AMD processor and I wasn't really planning on it, but if Intel is out to hurt Open Source, I will have to change my stance. 2. After reading this article ... http://www.vnunet.com/News/1142837 I am wondering, what about UnitedLinux? Isn't SCO part of an ongoing pro Linux project with SuSE and others? Does SCO expect me to pay $699 for a license for software they shipped me under the pretense that it was 'free'? Honestly, I went to United Linux about 2 months ago and signed up for the shipment of the free software discs. If I install them, and then pay the $699 can I not sue them for fraud? Just a few questions from a newbie trying to make sense out of all this posturing. Thanks for your time. -=Thinker Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] OT--General Linux Questions
On Sunday 10 August 2003 12:26 pm, David E. Fox wrote: 1. After reading this article ... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2001436280_linux group08.html Please put that back. :) I couldn't access it. :) I am left wondering; where does Intel stand in the debate? Are they officially on the M$ side of things are are they attempting to play Even if that's relevant, AMD makes better processors. See tom's hardware. AMD (ca 2001 when I put this box together, at that time the Pentium 4 had just surfaced) is better and faster at the same clock speed than P4. There are still serious issues like cache and pipeline stalls in the P4, unless Intel fixed that since. If Intel is more MS-friendly than they should be, I don't know. I'll stick with AMD. I, for one, don't want a computer that keeps track of my existence and reports to MS - I know I exist, and don't need any help in that area. Of course, I'm referring to the increasing possibility of DMCA-aware computing, with processors that detect or refuse to run stuff.) I can sum up the SCO effort in 2 words: unjust enrichment. I read another article which made the point that at one time SCO (they acquired Caldera, right?) was actively trying to market a commercial Linux distro. I never opted for Caldera, but I read the reviews and such. Now, they did much of that through GPL, no? Did SCO commit any *non GPL* changes to the Linux kernel? No - they would have been rejected by Linus. (Anyone got his input?) AIX is a totally different animal than Linux. The kernels are different. How dare SCO tell IBM that every customer is now using an illegal product. (we use AIX + Pick at work). But isn't that SCO's argument? That Linux got polluted by source from AIX? Redhat, Mandrake, debian, etc. have not signed contracts with SCO to my knowledge. I know I didn't. I can't be in violation of a non-existant license. SCO will never see any money from me. Might as well tell them that if Linux did not exist, millions of people probably would be pirating SCO, or perhaps Windows. neutral in all of this. I have never used an AMD processor and I wasn't AMD is superior. license for software they shipped me under the pretense that it was 'free'? Was it shrinkwrapped? Did it have a non-GPL type license to it? There have been precedences in the user community reactions over the years - involving en masse switching to the competition. For instance, rememmber SEA versus Phil Katz? The result of that was thousands of BBSes switching to ZIP, almost overnight. GIF licensing threats from Unisys engendered a similar reaction, more recently. So if SCO wins, I'll switch to FreeBSD :). I'd rather not, though. FreeBSD is fine, but I think it would require a lot more post-install setup than Linux distros do ATM. I could be wrong on that - I haven't tried it in a very long time. -=Thinker David E. Fox Thanks for letting me [EMAIL PROTECTED]change magnetic patterns [EMAIL PROTECTED] on your hard disk. --- Actually the way I read it was that Caldera acquired SCO and then since they were bringing in more revenue on SCO products, they changed the company name from Caldera to SCO. Better identifies with what they sold more of at less of a loss. So basically the SCO interests took over the Caldera interests and some of the Caldera Officers who were pro open source left the company. Now named SCO of course. That is my take on the convolutions of this nefarious company. -- Dennis M. linux user #180842 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
