RE: [linux] Re: [newbie] Totally scunnered with MetaCity
Overall, though, I'm still perplexed over the entire desktop war bit - linux is an OS that allows you to have YOUR OWN CUSTOMIZED DESKTOP - but unless you're a bit adept at customizing, you're stuck with mainstream desktop environments - almost like in the Windows world - which I despise. This seems like a good time and place to ask what is a desktop environment? As opposed to a window manager. From an X windows point of view as well as from a user point of view. -- Confused of Kettering (Leicester actually) -- Richard Urwin, Private No 9000 series computer has ever made a mitsake or corrubiteddatatato. This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [linux] Re: [newbie] Totally scunnered with MetaCity
On Fri, 2002-11-29 at 20:28, Richard Urwin wrote: Overall, though, I'm still perplexed over the entire desktop war bit - linux is an OS that allows you to have YOUR OWN CUSTOMIZED DESKTOP - but unless you're a bit adept at customizing, you're stuck with mainstream desktop environments - almost like in the Windows world - which I despise. This seems like a good time and place to ask what is a desktop environment? As opposed to a window manager. From an X windows point of view as well as from a user point of view. -- Confused of Kettering (Leicester actually) -- Richard Urwin, Private No 9000 series computer has ever made a mitsake or corrubiteddatatato. Window Manager - handles the XWindows Desktop Environment - Window Manager plus icons on desktop, window-tips standard, standard widgets and pipes...etc... When you use a window manager you're using all sorts of programs hither thither and yon...when you're using a desktop environment, you can basically copy/paste data, pipe data easily from one program to the next, have all your programs looking basically the same... KDE is a complete desktop environment. Gnome is a complete desktop environment. CDE is a desktop environment. XIMIAN is a desktop environment. XFCE is a window manager (with extras) Blackbox is a window manager. Enlightenment is a window manager. WindowMaker is a window manager. ...does that sort it out a tad bit better? -- Fri Nov 29 22:35:00 EST 2002 .o0 linux user:267497 0o. |____ | kühn media australia | / \ /| |'-. | http://kma.0catch.com | .\__/ || | | | | _ / `._ \|_|_.-' | stephen kühn | | / \__.`=._) (_ | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | |/ ._/ || | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | |'. `\ | | |icq: 5483808 | ;/ / | | | | smk ) /_/| |.---.| | mobile: 0410-728-389 | ' `-`' | Berkeley, New South Wales, AU Coralament*Best Grötens*Liebe Grüße*Best Regards*Elkorajn Salutojn Gay shlafen: Yiddish for go to sleep. Now doesn't gay shlafen have a softer, more soothing sound than the harsh, staccato go to sleep? Listen to the difference: Go to sleep, you little wretch! ... Gay shlafen, darling. Obvious, isn't it? Clearly the best thing you can do for you children is to start speaking Yiddish right now and never speak another word of English as long as you live. This will, of course, entail teaching Yiddish to all your friends, business associates, the people at the supermarket, and so on, but that's just the point. It has to start with committed individuals and then grow Some minor adjustments will have to be made, of course: those signs written in what look like Yiddish letters won't be funny when everything is written in Yiddish. And we'll have to start driving on the left side of the road so we won't be reading the street signs backwards. But is that too high a price to pay for world peace? I think not, my friend, I think not. -- Arthur Naiman, Every Goy's Guide to Yiddish Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Totally scunnered with MetaCity
On Thursday 28 Nov 2002 5:32 am, Len Lawrence wrote: . As you point out other distributions would also adopt Gnome 2 so there would be no advantage in switching loyalties. Glad to see that those more knowledgeable are helping you to eradicate the problems. Good luck Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Totally scunnered with MetaCity
On Wednesday 27 Nov 2002 12:35 pm, Len Lawrence wrote: What this means is that Mandrake has lost a customer, and others will vote with their feet as well unless Mandrake or somebody influential applies pressure on the Gnomes to change their heading. By my calculation they are at least 90 degrees off course. I shall buy the 8.2 Power Pack, as a last gesture of support for Mandrake. But that is the end, finish, no more. Sorry for the rant - hope I have not offended anyone. Not offended - but puzzled. If your quarrel is with Gnome, why punish Mandrake? OK, so you don't like KDE, but surely there's another wm that you could be happy with? And if Gnome is the problem, won't it be so in any other distro? I hope it was just frustration talking, and that you will re-consider. Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Totally scunnered with MetaCity
On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 13:35, Len Lawrence wrote: This is what I found: Double-clicks all over the place - I HATE doubleclicking. Open Nautilus. Go to Edit | Preferences. Under Iconlist views you find click behaviour. It affects both Nautilus and the desktop icons. No sloppy-focus aka focus-follows-mouse. In the menu, go to Gnome control center. Click on Window focus, and you'll find what you're looking for. User cannot place images on the root window without going through Nautilus/MetaCity. They get hidden by the window manager's own backgrounds. Now, for years I have been compiling a collection of scanned calendar images (landscapes) and astronomical vistas which I have been able to use as wallpaper at whim, using my own little menu program. I resent being forced to jump through hoops to do something simple - it is so Redmond don't you agree. You can copy your images to ~/.gnome-desktop The font rendering leaves a lot to be desired. This is the first time fonts have ever been a problem, always crisp and clear in both RedHat and Mandrake. No doubt one can improve them. I agree completely on this. Icons all over the desktop. I dislike floating icons and usually remove them immediately, preferring to invoke applications from the panel (with a single click!). And, this is the worst bit. The icons are all owned by root! A user cannot edit the preferences, or delete the icon. I haven't actually done this, but you could remove your icons from ~/.gnome-desktop. Mine are owned by my user. For pity's sake, what are the Gnome developers smoking? Ask them, it's sure to be good ;) There appears to be no way to specify the number of workspaces; I normally have 6, the default is 4. I suspect that there is somewhere that this can be done, as root no doubt. Right click on the workspace switcher, click Prederences. You can have as many as you wish. Sorry for the rant - hope I have not offended anyone. Not at all, mate. I have my own issues with the desktop, but I suspect it's more a Mdk than a Gnome problem for me. Keep rockin'. Meliton. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Totally scunnered with MetaCity
Len, If Gnome is the problem, leaving Mandrake won't help because all other modern distros will use Gnome2 as well. Moving to a new distro would be a pain and wouldn't get you anywhere, and moving to Winsux is out of the question. So what are your options? Miark On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:35:54 + Len Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, that's it. No more Mandrake. Linux Format provided 9.0 on DVD this month, so I gave it a go. Installation on my old Pentium III was totally painless, and DVDs are definitely the way to go. Then up came the user interface and what a nasty shock that was! I had seen complaints on the list about Nautilus and MetaCity but I had not imagined how bad Gnome 2 was. A giant leap backwards. All the freedom and functionality that I had been enjoying for six years suddenly gone. Simply put, I cannot live with that interface. My needs are few, but I insist on having control over my own desktop. The Gnome developers have completely lost the plot. For people who must have a Windows style environment KDE was designed for them. I would never use it, have never liked Windows. This is what I found: Double-clicks all over the place - I HATE doubleclicking. No sloppy-focus aka focus-follows-mouse. User cannot place images on the root window without going through Nautilus/MetaCity. They get hidden by the window manager's own backgrounds. Now, for years I have been compiling a collection of scanned calendar images (landscapes) and astronomical vistas which I have been able to use as wallpaper at whim, using my own little menu program. I resent being forced to jump through hoops to do something simple - it is so Redmond don't you agree. The font rendering leaves a lot to be desired. This is the first time fonts have ever been a problem, always crisp and clear in both RedHat and Mandrake. No doubt one can improve them. Icons all over the desktop. I dislike floating icons and usually remove them immediately, preferring to invoke applications from the panel (with a single click!). And, this is the worst bit. The icons are all owned by root! A user cannot edit the preferences, or delete the icon. For pity's sake, what are the Gnome developers smoking? There appears to be no way to specify the number of workspaces; I normally have 6, the default is 4. I suspect that there is somewhere that this can be done, as root no doubt. What this means is that Mandrake has lost a customer, and others will vote with their feet as well unless Mandrake or somebody influential applies pressure on the Gnomes to change their heading. By my calculation they are at least 90 degrees off course. I shall buy the 8.2 Power Pack, as a last gesture of support for Mandrake. But that is the end, finish, no more. Sorry for the rant - hope I have not offended anyone. -- Len Lawrence Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Totally scunnered with MetaCity
On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 23:35, Len Lawrence wrote: Well, that's it. No more Mandrake. Linux Format provided 9.0 on DVD this month, so I gave it a go. Installation on my old Pentium III was totally painless, and DVDs are definitely the way to go. Then up came the user interface and what a nasty shock that was! I had seen complaints on the list about Nautilus and MetaCity but I had not imagined how bad Gnome 2 was. A giant leap backwards. All the freedom and functionality that I had been enjoying for six years suddenly gone. Simply put, I cannot live with that interface. My needs are few, but I insist on having control over my own desktop. The Gnome developers have completely lost the plot. For people who must have a Windows style environment KDE was designed for them. I would never use it, have never liked Windows. This is what I found: Double-clicks all over the place - I HATE doubleclicking. No sloppy-focus aka focus-follows-mouse. User cannot place images on the root window without going through Nautilus/MetaCity. They get hidden by the window manager's own backgrounds. Now, for years I have been compiling a collection of scanned calendar images (landscapes) and astronomical vistas which I have been able to use as wallpaper at whim, using my own little menu program. I resent being forced to jump through hoops to do something simple - it is so Redmond don't you agree. The font rendering leaves a lot to be desired. This is the first time fonts have ever been a problem, always crisp and clear in both RedHat and Mandrake. No doubt one can improve them. Icons all over the desktop. I dislike floating icons and usually remove them immediately, preferring to invoke applications from the panel (with a single click!). And, this is the worst bit. The icons are all owned by root! A user cannot edit the preferences, or delete the icon. For pity's sake, what are the Gnome developers smoking? There appears to be no way to specify the number of workspaces; I normally have 6, the default is 4. I suspect that there is somewhere that this can be done, as root no doubt. What this means is that Mandrake has lost a customer, and others will vote with their feet as well unless Mandrake or somebody influential applies pressure on the Gnomes to change their heading. By my calculation they are at least 90 degrees off course. I shall buy the 8.2 Power Pack, as a last gesture of support for Mandrake. But that is the end, finish, no more. Sorry for the rant - hope I have not offended anyone. -- Len Lawrence Just to let ya know, GNOME is REMOVABLE - I did it. I HATE Gnome2, so I removed it altogether, then dug out my trusty GNOME 1.4 and installed it instead. MetaCity is NOT worth even mentioning, let alone using. Sawfish is better by far. BTW, Gnome is trying to correct the errors of their ways... But overall, the KDE side of MDK ain't all that bad...and you do get Enlightenment, WindowMaker and the ability to put more on... -- Thu Nov 28 15:20:00 EST 2002 .o0 linux user:267497 0o. |____ | kühn media australia | / \ /| |'-. | http://kma.0catch.com | .\__/ || | | | | _ / `._ \|_|_.-' | stephen kühn | | / \__.`=._) (_ | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | |/ ._/ || | email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | |'. `\ | | |icq: 5483808 | ;/ / | | | | smk ) /_/| |.---.| | mobile: 0410-728-389 | ' `-`' | Berkeley, New South Wales, AU Coralament*Best Grötens*Liebe Grüße*Best Regards*Elkorajn Salutojn Everyone can be taught to sculpt: Michelangelo would have had to be taught how ___not to. So it is with the great programmers. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Totally scunnered with MetaCity
On 28 Nov 2002 15:26:37 +1100, Stephen Kuhn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 23:35, Len Lawrence wrote: Well, that's it. No more Mandrake. Linux Format provided 9.0 on DVD this month, so I gave it a go. Installation on my old Pentium III was totally painless, and DVDs are definitely the way to go. Then up came the user interface and what a nasty shock that was! I had seen complaints on the list about Nautilus and MetaCity but I had not imagined how bad Gnome 2 was. A giant leap backwards. All the freedom and functionality that I had been enjoying for six years suddenly gone. Simply put, I cannot live with that interface. My needs are few, but I insist on having control over my own desktop. The Gnome developers have completely lost the plot. For people who must have a Windows style environment KDE was designed for them. I would never use it, have never liked Windows. This is what I found: Double-clicks all over the place - I HATE doubleclicking. No sloppy-focus aka focus-follows-mouse. User cannot place images on the root window without going through Nautilus/MetaCity. They get hidden by the window manager's own backgrounds. Now, for years I have been compiling a collection of scanned calendar images (landscapes) and astronomical vistas which I have been able to use as wallpaper at whim, using my own little menu program. I resent being forced to jump through hoops to do something simple - it is so Redmond don't you agree. The font rendering leaves a lot to be desired. This is the first time fonts have ever been a problem, always crisp and clear in both RedHat and Mandrake. No doubt one can improve them. Icons all over the desktop. I dislike floating icons and usually remove them immediately, preferring to invoke applications from the panel (with a single click!). And, this is the worst bit. The icons are all owned by root! A user cannot edit the preferences, or delete the icon. For pity's sake, what are the Gnome developers smoking? There appears to be no way to specify the number of workspaces; I normally have 6, the default is 4. I suspect that there is somewhere that this can be done, as root no doubt. What this means is that Mandrake has lost a customer, and others will vote with their feet as well unless Mandrake or somebody influential applies pressure on the Gnomes to change their heading. By my calculation they are at least 90 degrees off course. I shall buy the 8.2 Power Pack, as a last gesture of support for Mandrake. But that is the end, finish, no more. Sorry for the rant - hope I have not offended anyone. -- Len Lawrence Just to let ya know, GNOME is REMOVABLE - I did it. I HATE Gnome2, so I removed it altogether, then dug out my trusty GNOME 1.4 and installed it instead. MetaCity is NOT worth even mentioning, let alone using. Sawfish is better by far. BTW, Gnome is trying to correct the errors of their ways... But overall, the KDE side of MDK ain't all that bad...and you do get Enlightenment, WindowMaker and the ability to put more on... GNOME is not the problem, you just need to know how to configure it. Nobody is forcing you to use Metacity. In fact, Sawfish is still the official WM of the GNOME Project, at least for the time being. I use Sawfish instead of Metacity in GNOME. Nautilus' management of the desktop can be turned off in its preferences, leaving you with a bare desktop. You don't need to be root to alter any GNOME settings. So with that said, what exactly is wrong with GNOME2 that pushed you back to GNOME1? I have found GNOME2 to be leagues ahead of its predecessor. It is not quite as functional yet, but no doubt it will get there soon. It is already much faster and easier to use. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan [Yama | http://www.pclinuxonline.com/] If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. -- Scott Adams Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Totally scunnered with MetaCity
On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:09:48 -0500 Miark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Len, If Gnome is the problem, leaving Mandrake won't help because all other modern distros will use Gnome2 as well. Moving to a new distro would be a pain and wouldn't get you anywhere, and moving to Winsux is out of the question. So what are your options? On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:35:54 + Len Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, that's it. No more Mandrake. Linux Format provided 9.0 on DVD --- a load more snipped Freeze at 8.2 and lose out on later developments. -- Len Lawrence Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Totally scunnered with MetaCity
On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:22:02 + Anne Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 27 Nov 2002 12:35 pm, Len Lawrence wrote: What this means is that Mandrake has lost a customer, and others will vote with their feet as well unless Mandrake or somebody influential applies pressure on the Gnomes to change their heading. By my calculation they are at least 90 degrees off course. I shall buy the 8.2 Power Pack, as a last gesture of support for Mandrake. But that is the end, finish, no more. Sorry for the rant - hope I have not offended anyone. Not offended - but puzzled. If your quarrel is with Gnome, why punish Mandrake? OK, so you don't like KDE, but surely there's another wm that you could be happy with? And if Gnome is the problem, won't it be so in any other distro? I hope it was just frustration talking, and that you will re-consider. Not punishing Mandrake - no way. Just feel that they should go back to Gnome 1.4 until the Gnome people get their act together. These people, Gnomes and Mandrake work very hard to supply first class free software but in this case they seem to have misjudged the market. Gnome 1.4 + Sawfish were perfect for my needs. Why not supply this combination as an alternative? The answer to that is they don't have the resources to maintain two parallel environments. As you point out other distributions would also adopt Gnome 2 so there would be no advantage in switching loyalties. -- Len Lawrence Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Totally scunnered with MetaCity
On 27 Nov 2002 21:29:11 +0100 Meliton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 13:35, Len Lawrence wrote: This is what I found: Double-clicks all over the place - I HATE doubleclicking. Open Nautilus. Go to Edit | Preferences. Under Iconlist views you find click behaviour. It affects both Nautilus and the desktop icons. No sloppy-focus aka focus-follows-mouse. In the menu, go to Gnome control center. Click on Window focus, and you'll find what you're looking for. User cannot place images on the root window without going through Nautilus/MetaCity. They get hidden by the window manager's own backgrounds. Now, for years I have been compiling a collection of scanned calendar images (landscapes) and astronomical vistas which I have been able to use as wallpaper at whim, using my own little menu program. I resent being forced to jump through hoops to do something simple - it is so Redmond don't you agree. You can copy your images to ~/.gnome-desktop The font rendering leaves a lot to be desired. This is the first time fonts have ever been a problem, always crisp and clear in both RedHat and Mandrake. No doubt one can improve them. I agree completely on this. Icons all over the desktop. I dislike floating icons and usually remove them immediately, preferring to invoke applications from the panel (with a single click!). And, this is the worst bit. The icons are all owned by root! A user cannot edit the preferences, or delete the icon. I haven't actually done this, but you could remove your icons from ~/.gnome-desktop. Mine are owned by my user. For pity's sake, what are the Gnome developers smoking? Ask them, it's sure to be good ;) There appears to be no way to specify the number of workspaces; I normally have 6, the default is 4. I suspect that there is somewhere that this can be done, as root no doubt. Right click on the workspace switcher, click Prederences. You can have as many as you wish. Sorry for the rant - hope I have not offended anyone. Not at all, mate. I have my own issues with the desktop, but I suspect it's more a Mdk than a Gnome problem for me. Keep rockin'. Will do - you do the same son. Thanks for the tips. Will see if this thing can be hammered into shape. --- Len Lawrence Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Totally scunnered with MetaCity
On Thu, 28 Nov 2002 15:58:11 +1100 Sridhar Dhanapalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 28 Nov 2002 15:26:37 +1100, Stephen Kuhn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2002-11-27 at 23:35, Len Lawrence wrote: Well, that's it. No more Mandrake. Linux Format provided 9.0 on DVD ---snip snip snip --- GNOME is not the problem, you just need to know how to configure it. Nobody is forcing you to use Metacity. In fact, Sawfish is still the official WM of the GNOME Project, at least for the time being. I use Sawfish instead of Metacity in GNOME. Nautilus' management of the desktop can be turned off in its preferences, leaving you with a bare desktop. You don't need to be root to alter any GNOME settings. So with that said, what exactly is wrong with GNOME2 that pushed you back to GNOME1? I have found GNOME2 to be leagues ahead of its predecessor. It is not quite as functional yet, but no doubt it will get there soon. It is already much faster and easier to use. No, my complaint was basically about the window manager. I did not realise that Nautilus could be replaced by Sawfish, et al. I had (mis)understood that the various components were inextricably entangled. Thanks Sridhar, will explore the options. -- Len Lawrence Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
