RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-03 Thread Michael B. Smith
*should*.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 10:44 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

It's the same level of complexity of doing an in-VM backup using normal tools. 
You can't just restore two SQL Servers that are mirrored or replication 
partners using native tools and expect the mirroring to work.

In either case, the operator should have a detailed run book that details each 
step to be followed. In that case, there is no complexity beyond reading a 
document and following instructions. The complexity is in developing the 
thoroughly tested operations guide in the first place.

Cheers
Ken

-Original Message-
From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com] 
Sent: Friday, 3 February 2012 11:15 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Yes, that would work - but again, it's an additional level of complexity. You 
could do it. I could do it. Most of the admins for my clients could not do it 
properly, except by pure luck.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 9:55 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

How would this impact SQL Servers - they tend to be independent of each other. 
For those that are connected (replication/mirroring/log ship) you could restore 
the master, then manually set up the replication in the event of a real 
disaster (everything's gone)

Cheers
Ken



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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-03 Thread David Lum
Ah, SBS is all I really care about as far as this discussion goes, but it makes 
sense about the non-SBS multi-server environments. However, in those 
environments it's the DC's and Exchange servers that are the primary concern 
right? What about SQL? I can't imagine a web or file/print server is a big 
deal, although by definition they are usually simpler to restore from backup 
anyhow...

-Original Message-
From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:26 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Yes. If you restore an old VHD you WILL break stuff. Not maybe. Not 
sometimes. Not rarely. You WILL.

The only exceptions are single server solutions like SBS.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: David Lum [mailto:david@nwea.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 5:35 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Even with VSS it's scary?
 
-Original Message-
From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:05 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

I backup the virtual machines from within themselves. 

Backing up vhd's is easily doable, but DR using backed up vhd's is scary with 
AD, SQL, and Exchange*. And will be even more so with other server roles in 
Win8. So... there be a method to my madness.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com

* Can you say USN rollback, or SN rollback, or anything similar? ... I knew 
you could. :-)

-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 4:16 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Michael B. Smith mich...@smithcons.com wrote:
 I backup the root of all my VMs to a NAS and then backup each VM to the NAS.

  Do you backup the virtual disk files themselves (running the backup on the 
root/host), or do you backup the files from within the guest (as if the guest 
was just another network node)?  The later is the direction I'm leaning in -- 
it's how we do things with our physical servers anyway.  But it seems like 
backing up the virtual disk files would also be useful, for recovery from OS 
corruption, disaster scenarios, etc.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ 
http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-03 Thread David Lum
I use VSS on the Hyper-V host to back up the guest VM's, I simply back up the 
entire logical disk the VM's live on. In addition, I have a backup agent on 
each VM that backs up system state and files (and those go to an Internet-based 
backup provider).

This makes me wonder...if I have SBS 2008 w/ Premium add-on and I am using a 
backup tool on the host (but no other features like file/print/DHCP etc) am I 
in violation of the licensing even if the only thin I am backing up is the 
local VM's? The info I have says ..only run it to provide hardware 
virtualization services and run software to manage the service... so I'm 
guessing technically that's not allowed and I would have to pony up for another 
2008 R2 standard license, correct? 

Dave

-Original Message-
From: Jay Kulsh [mailto:jayku...@csi.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:44 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

David,

Is there a non-scary way to do backup of VM? I thought VSS was most 
trustworthy. Thanks.

Jay
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ 
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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-03 Thread Eric Wittersheim
On Feb 2, 2012 12:32 AM, Jay Kulsh jayku...@csi.com wrote:

 Terry,

 I think you are backing up your VMs from the host machine which is Windows
 2008 R2. Right? Even with command-line of OBadmin, it is my understanding
 that you need to backup all VMs and entire partions where their files are.
 Is there option to backup individual VMs with command line of OBAdmin in
 R2? (I am using 2008 host without R2.) Thanks.

 Jay
 ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
 ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-03 Thread ntsysadmin
Windows Backup can also send email notifications. I'm in the process of setting 
this up now.

Mike

-Original Message-
From: Terry Dickson [mailto:te...@treasurer.state.ks.us] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 10:09 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Wbadmin Start backup -backuptarget:\\targetbackupserver\targetshare 
-Include:c:,E:,f: -vssfull -allCritical -noinheritacl -quiet 
-user:domain\username -Password:userpassword

OK I took out specific info, but this is the command I use to backup many of 
our servers.  I choose this one because you can see it has multiple drives.  
This server is running Server 2008 R2, however the same command works on 2008.  
I would suggest after you set it up to try a restore to verify everything is 
working fine.  That is exactly what we have done.  The biggest problem is that 
everytime you run it, you overwrite the old backup so you only have the latest 
backup.
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ 
http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-03 Thread Michael B. Smith
SQL is an issue. File servers are if DFS is involved.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: David Lum [mailto:david@nwea.org] 
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 8:52 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Ah, SBS is all I really care about as far as this discussion goes, but it makes 
sense about the non-SBS multi-server environments. However, in those 
environments it's the DC's and Exchange servers that are the primary concern 
right? What about SQL? I can't imagine a web or file/print server is a big 
deal, although by definition they are usually simpler to restore from backup 
anyhow...

-Original Message-
From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:26 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Yes. If you restore an old VHD you WILL break stuff. Not maybe. Not 
sometimes. Not rarely. You WILL.

The only exceptions are single server solutions like SBS.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: David Lum [mailto:david@nwea.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 5:35 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Even with VSS it's scary?
 
-Original Message-
From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:05 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

I backup the virtual machines from within themselves. 

Backing up vhd's is easily doable, but DR using backed up vhd's is scary with 
AD, SQL, and Exchange*. And will be even more so with other server roles in 
Win8. So... there be a method to my madness.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com

* Can you say USN rollback, or SN rollback, or anything similar? ... I knew 
you could. :-)

-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 4:16 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Michael B. Smith mich...@smithcons.com wrote:
 I backup the root of all my VMs to a NAS and then backup each VM to the NAS.

  Do you backup the virtual disk files themselves (running the backup on the 
root/host), or do you backup the files from within the guest (as if the guest 
was just another network node)?  The later is the direction I'm leaning in -- 
it's how we do things with our physical servers anyway.  But it seems like 
backing up the virtual disk files would also be useful, for recovery from OS 
corruption, disaster scenarios, etc.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ 
http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-03 Thread Ken Schaefer
Still curious - what is the issue with SQL Servers?

-Original Message-
From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com] 
Sent: Saturday, 4 February 2012 6:51 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

SQL is an issue. File servers are if DFS is involved.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: David Lum [mailto:david@nwea.org]
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 8:52 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Ah, SBS is all I really care about as far as this discussion goes, but it makes 
sense about the non-SBS multi-server environments. However, in those 
environments it's the DC's and Exchange servers that are the primary concern 
right? What about SQL? I can't imagine a web or file/print server is a big 
deal, although by definition they are usually simpler to restore from backup 
anyhow...

-Original Message-
From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:26 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Yes. If you restore an old VHD you WILL break stuff. Not maybe. Not 
sometimes. Not rarely. You WILL.

The only exceptions are single server solutions like SBS.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: David Lum [mailto:david@nwea.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 5:35 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Even with VSS it's scary?
 
-Original Message-
From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:05 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

I backup the virtual machines from within themselves. 

Backing up vhd's is easily doable, but DR using backed up vhd's is scary with 
AD, SQL, and Exchange*. And will be even more so with other server roles in 
Win8. So... there be a method to my madness.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com

* Can you say USN rollback, or SN rollback, or anything similar? ... I knew 
you could. :-)

-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 4:16 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Michael B. Smith mich...@smithcons.com wrote:
 I backup the root of all my VMs to a NAS and then backup each VM to the NAS.

  Do you backup the virtual disk files themselves (running the backup on the 
root/host), or do you backup the files from within the guest (as if the guest 
was just another network node)?  The later is the direction I'm leaning in -- 
it's how we do things with our physical servers anyway.  But it seems like 
backing up the virtual disk files would also be useful, for recovery from OS 
corruption, disaster scenarios, etc.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ 
http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Terry Dickson
Wbadmin Start backup -backuptarget:\\targetbackupserver\targetshare 
-Include:c:,E:,f: -vssfull -allCritical -noinheritacl -quiet 
-user:domain\username -Password:userpassword

OK I took out specific info, but this is the command I use to backup many of 
our servers.  I choose this one because you can see it has multiple drives.  
This server is running Server 2008 R2, however the same command works on 2008.  
I would suggest after you set it up to try a restore to verify everything is 
working fine.  That is exactly what we have done.  The biggest problem is that 
everytime you run it, you overwrite the old backup so you only have the latest 
backup.
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Jay Kulsh
Terry,

Thanks for the WBadmin command line entry.

About The biggest problem is that everytime you run it, you overwrite the old 
backup so you only have the latest backup. -- this is so only because your 
target is a remote share. A local drive can keep versions.

I think your -AllCritical switch backs up all VMs. There is no option to select 
just one.

Jay
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Rene de Haas
If you don't want it to backup to local drives you could run the backup
from a script and after it finishes to move the backup to a certain
subfolder.
Shouldn't be too hard to do in powershell or even a batchfile.

René

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Jay Kulsh jayku...@csi.com wrote:

 Terry,

 Thanks for the WBadmin command line entry.

 About The biggest problem is that everytime you run it, you overwrite the
 old backup so you only have the latest backup. -- this is so only because
 your target is a remote share. A local drive can keep versions.

 I think your -AllCritical switch backs up all VMs. There is no option to
 select just one.

 Jay
 ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
 ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

 ---
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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Michael B. Smith
I backup the root of all my VMs to a NAS and then backup each VM to the NAS.

Then I run a script that compresses and renames each backup (datestamps it).

Then I run a script that deletes backups more than 30 days old.

All in PowerShell.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: Jay Kulsh [mailto:jayku...@csi.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:56 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Terry,

Thanks for the WBadmin command line entry.

About The biggest problem is that everytime you run it, you overwrite the old 
backup so you only have the latest backup. -- this is so only because your 
target is a remote share. A local drive can keep versions.

I think your -AllCritical switch backs up all VMs. There is no option to select 
just one.

Jay
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Jay Kulsh
Michael,

Can you share the commands? Thanks.

Jay
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
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Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Jay Kulsh
Rene,

That would work only if you have an extra local disk with enough space to 
contain the backup. This extra disk cannot be part of allCritical disks, 
obviously.

Jay
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
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Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Ben Scott
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Michael B. Smith mich...@smithcons.com wrote:
 I backup the root of all my VMs to a NAS and then backup each VM to the NAS.

  Do you backup the virtual disk files themselves (running the backup
on the root/host), or do you backup the files from within the guest
(as if the guest was just another network node)?  The later is the
direction I'm leaning in -- it's how we do things with our physical
servers anyway.  But it seems like backing up the virtual disk files
would also be useful, for recovery from OS corruption, disaster
scenarios, etc.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Michael B. Smith
It's not a single command. :-) It's a suite of commands. :-)

Tell you what - I'll sanitize it and do a blog post on it tonight.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: Jay Kulsh [mailto:jayku...@csi.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 4:06 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Michael,

Can you share the commands? Thanks.

Jay
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Michael B. Smith
I backup the virtual machines from within themselves. 

Backing up vhd's is easily doable, but DR using backed up vhd's is scary with 
AD, SQL, and Exchange*. And will be even more so with other server roles in 
Win8. So... there be a method to my madness.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com

* Can you say USN rollback, or SN rollback, or anything similar? ... I knew 
you could. :-)

-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 4:16 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Michael B. Smith mich...@smithcons.com wrote:
 I backup the root of all my VMs to a NAS and then backup each VM to the NAS.

  Do you backup the virtual disk files themselves (running the backup
on the root/host), or do you backup the files from within the guest
(as if the guest was just another network node)?  The later is the
direction I'm leaning in -- it's how we do things with our physical
servers anyway.  But it seems like backing up the virtual disk files
would also be useful, for recovery from OS corruption, disaster
scenarios, etc.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

---
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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread David Lum
Even with VSS it's scary?
 
-Original Message-
From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:05 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

I backup the virtual machines from within themselves. 

Backing up vhd's is easily doable, but DR using backed up vhd's is scary with 
AD, SQL, and Exchange*. And will be even more so with other server roles in 
Win8. So... there be a method to my madness.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com

* Can you say USN rollback, or SN rollback, or anything similar? ... I knew 
you could. :-)

-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 4:16 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Michael B. Smith mich...@smithcons.com wrote:
 I backup the root of all my VMs to a NAS and then backup each VM to the NAS.

  Do you backup the virtual disk files themselves (running the backup on the 
root/host), or do you backup the files from within the guest (as if the guest 
was just another network node)?  The later is the direction I'm leaning in -- 
it's how we do things with our physical servers anyway.  But it seems like 
backing up the virtual disk files would also be useful, for recovery from OS 
corruption, disaster scenarios, etc.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ 
http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

---
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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Jay Kulsh
David,

Is there a non-scary way to do backup of VM? I thought VSS was most 
trustworthy. Thanks.

Jay
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread John Cook
Brien Posey did a nice little webinar yesterday on backing up hyper V, some 
nice tips. 
http://go.veeam.com/webinar-02012012-posey-best-practices-for-hyper-v-backup-recovery-planning.html.
John W. Cook
Systems Administrator
Partnership for Strong Families

- Original Message -
From: Jay Kulsh [mailto:jayku...@csi.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 05:44 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues ntsysadmin@lyris.sunbelt-software.com
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

David,

Is there a non-scary way to do backup of VM? I thought VSS was most 
trustworthy. Thanks.

Jay
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

---
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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Crawford, Scott
nice

-Original Message-
From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:29 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

It's not a single command. :-) It's a suite of commands. :-)

Tell you what - I'll sanitize it and do a blog post on it tonight.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: Jay Kulsh [mailto:jayku...@csi.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 4:06 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Michael,

Can you share the commands? Thanks.

Jay
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ 
http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Michael B. Smith
You CAN use VSS. But I'm suggesting you do it from INSIDE the VM, not from 
OUTSIDE.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: Jay Kulsh [mailto:jayku...@csi.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 5:44 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

David,

Is there a non-scary way to do backup of VM? I thought VSS was most 
trustworthy. Thanks.

Jay
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

---
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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Michael B. Smith
Yes. If you restore an old VHD you WILL break stuff. Not maybe. Not 
sometimes. Not rarely. You WILL.

The only exceptions are single server solutions like SBS.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: David Lum [mailto:david@nwea.org] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 5:35 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Even with VSS it's scary?
 
-Original Message-
From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 2:05 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

I backup the virtual machines from within themselves. 

Backing up vhd's is easily doable, but DR using backed up vhd's is scary with 
AD, SQL, and Exchange*. And will be even more so with other server roles in 
Win8. So... there be a method to my madness.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com

* Can you say USN rollback, or SN rollback, or anything similar? ... I knew 
you could. :-)

-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 4:16 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Michael B. Smith mich...@smithcons.com wrote:
 I backup the root of all my VMs to a NAS and then backup each VM to the NAS.

  Do you backup the virtual disk files themselves (running the backup on the 
root/host), or do you backup the files from within the guest (as if the guest 
was just another network node)?  The later is the direction I'm leaning in -- 
it's how we do things with our physical servers anyway.  But it seems like 
backing up the virtual disk files would also be useful, for recovery from OS 
corruption, disaster scenarios, etc.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ 
http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

---
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Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Ben Scott
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Michael B. Smith mich...@smithcons.com wrote:
 Backing up vhd's is easily doable, but DR using backed up vhd's is
 scary with AD, SQL, and Exchange*.
 * Can you say USN rollback, or SN rollback, or anything similar? ... I 
 knew you could. :-)

  That's certainly a nasty possibility... but isn't that mostly a
problem with, shall we say, inappropriate restores?  If it's an
actual disaster and all the VMs have gone up in smoke, would restoring
them to point-in-time be safe?

  I guess that wouldn't be so straight-forward in a larger org, but
we're currently just one site.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Ben Scott
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 5:35 PM, David Lum david@nwea.org wrote:
 DR using backed up vhd's is scary with AD, SQL, and Exchange*.
 * Can you say USN rollback, or SN rollback, or anything similar? .

 Even with VSS it's scary?

  My understanding of the problem is: It's not the backup, it's the
restore.  Every change to AD gets stamped with a USN (Update Sequence
Number).  Say you've got two DCs, FOO and BAR.  Both DCs commit and
replicate changes to AD, tracking with their USNs.  Say FOO explodes
and you restore it to an earlier point in time.  Now FOO's USN counter
is rolled back to an earlier value, and will start replicating changes
using that earlier value.  But BAR has *different* changes committed
with those *same* USNs, from after the previous backup was done.

  Duplicate USNs are bad.  As in, Don't cross the streams bad.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Ben Scott
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Michael B. Smith mich...@smithcons.com wrote:
 Yes. If you restore an old VHD you WILL break stuff. Not maybe.
 Not sometimes. Not rarely. You WILL.

  crosses direct VHD backups off my list of things to examine

  Thanks for the advice.  Your knowledge and experience are invaluable
to this forum.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Michael B. Smith
In my experience - if you HAVE an inappropriate backup, in an emergency, you 
will be tempted to use it.

If you have more than a single DC/GC - then you are potentially a victim of 
this.

If you have more than a single Exchange server - then you are potentially a 
victim of this.

If you have more than a single SQL server - then you are potentially a victim 
of this.

In Win8 - there are even more scenarios (think DHCP availability groups) that 
can lead to problems with this scenario.

Just don't do it, is my advice.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:27 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Michael B. Smith mich...@smithcons.com wrote:
 Backing up vhd's is easily doable, but DR using backed up vhd's is
 scary with AD, SQL, and Exchange*.
 * Can you say USN rollback, or SN rollback, or anything similar? ... I 
 knew you could. :-)

  That's certainly a nasty possibility... but isn't that mostly a
problem with, shall we say, inappropriate restores?  If it's an
actual disaster and all the VMs have gone up in smoke, would restoring
them to point-in-time be safe?

  I guess that wouldn't be so straight-forward in a larger org, but
we're currently just one site.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

---
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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread James Hill
With DC names like that one should definitely ensure they have a good backup
strategy in place.

-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, 3 February 2012 9:33 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 5:35 PM, David Lum david@nwea.org wrote:
 DR using backed up vhd's is scary with AD, SQL, and Exchange*.
 * Can you say USN rollback, or SN rollback, or anything similar? .

 Even with VSS it's scary?

  My understanding of the problem is: It's not the backup, it's the restore.
Every change to AD gets stamped with a USN (Update Sequence Number).  Say
you've got two DCs, FOO and BAR.  Both DCs commit and replicate changes to
AD, tracking with their USNs.  Say FOO explodes and you restore it to an
earlier point in time.  Now FOO's USN counter is rolled back to an earlier
value, and will start replicating changes using that earlier value.  But BAR
has *different* changes committed with those *same* USNs, from after the
previous backup was done.

  Duplicate USNs are bad.  As in, Don't cross the streams bad.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~
http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Ken Schaefer
How would this impact SQL Servers - they tend to be independent of each other. 
For those that are connected (replication/mirroring/log ship) you could restore 
the master, then manually set up the replication in the event of a real 
disaster (everything's gone)

Cheers
Ken

-Original Message-
From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com] 
Sent: Friday, 3 February 2012 8:39 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

In my experience - if you HAVE an inappropriate backup, in an emergency, you 
will be tempted to use it.

If you have more than a single DC/GC - then you are potentially a victim of 
this.

If you have more than a single Exchange server - then you are potentially a 
victim of this.

If you have more than a single SQL server - then you are potentially a victim 
of this.

In Win8 - there are even more scenarios (think DHCP availability groups) that 
can lead to problems with this scenario.

Just don't do it, is my advice.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:27 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Michael B. Smith mich...@smithcons.com wrote:
 Backing up vhd's is easily doable, but DR using backed up vhd's is 
 scary with AD, SQL, and Exchange*.
 * Can you say USN rollback, or SN rollback, or anything similar? 
 ... I knew you could. :-)

  That's certainly a nasty possibility... but isn't that mostly a problem with, 
shall we say, inappropriate restores?  If it's an actual disaster and all the 
VMs have gone up in smoke, would restoring them to point-in-time be safe?

  I guess that wouldn't be so straight-forward in a larger org, but we're 
currently just one site.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ 
http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

---
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http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/
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with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Michael B. Smith
Yes, that would work - but again, it's an additional level of complexity. You 
could do it. I could do it. Most of the admins for my clients could not do it 
properly, except by pure luck.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 9:55 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

How would this impact SQL Servers - they tend to be independent of each other. 
For those that are connected (replication/mirroring/log ship) you could restore 
the master, then manually set up the replication in the event of a real 
disaster (everything's gone)

Cheers
Ken

-Original Message-
From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com] 
Sent: Friday, 3 February 2012 8:39 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

In my experience - if you HAVE an inappropriate backup, in an emergency, you 
will be tempted to use it.

If you have more than a single DC/GC - then you are potentially a victim of 
this.

If you have more than a single Exchange server - then you are potentially a 
victim of this.

If you have more than a single SQL server - then you are potentially a victim 
of this.

In Win8 - there are even more scenarios (think DHCP availability groups) that 
can lead to problems with this scenario.

Just don't do it, is my advice.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: Ben Scott [mailto:mailvor...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:27 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Michael B. Smith mich...@smithcons.com wrote:
 Backing up vhd's is easily doable, but DR using backed up vhd's is 
 scary with AD, SQL, and Exchange*.
 * Can you say USN rollback, or SN rollback, or anything similar? 
 ... I knew you could. :-)

  That's certainly a nasty possibility... but isn't that mostly a problem with, 
shall we say, inappropriate restores?  If it's an actual disaster and all the 
VMs have gone up in smoke, would restoring them to point-in-time be safe?

  I guess that wouldn't be so straight-forward in a larger org, but we're 
currently just one site.

-- Ben

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ 
http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-02 Thread Ken Schaefer
It's the same level of complexity of doing an in-VM backup using normal tools. 
You can't just restore two SQL Servers that are mirrored or replication 
partners using native tools and expect the mirroring to work.

In either case, the operator should have a detailed run book that details each 
step to be followed. In that case, there is no complexity beyond reading a 
document and following instructions. The complexity is in developing the 
thoroughly tested operations guide in the first place.

Cheers
Ken

-Original Message-
From: Michael B. Smith [mailto:mich...@smithcons.com] 
Sent: Friday, 3 February 2012 11:15 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

Yes, that would work - but again, it's an additional level of complexity. You 
could do it. I could do it. Most of the admins for my clients could not do it 
properly, except by pure luck.

Regards,

Michael B. Smith
Consultant and Exchange MVP
http://TheEssentialExchange.com


-Original Message-
From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:k...@adopenstatic.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 9:55 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

How would this impact SQL Servers - they tend to be independent of each other. 
For those that are connected (replication/mirroring/log ship) you could restore 
the master, then manually set up the replication in the event of a real 
disaster (everything's gone)

Cheers
Ken



~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-01 Thread David Lum
If my WBadmin you mean native Windows 2008 backup, I use effectively that to 
back up my VM's. I use a product called BackupAssist which is basically a more 
flexible front-end. I point the files to an eSATA RAID attached to the same 
machine and a NAS that's in a different building.

-Original Message-
From: Jay Kulsh [mailto:jayku...@csi.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 1:39 PM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

After reading numerous articles, it seems to me that there may be 5 ways of 
backing up a Microsoft VM:

1. Doing an on-line backup using a VSS-aware software like Microsoft's SCVMM or 
Altaro, etc.

2. Doing an on-line backup from the host machine, of all VMs, of all critical 
disks, using built-in WBadmin. (Many conditions must be met for this to work, 
but they are doable in most cases.)

3. Saving the VM (not quite stopping it, but neither is VM on-line; perhaps we 
can think that VM is in sleep mode.)

4. Exporting a VM after stopping it.

5. Copying VHD file (along with XML  BIN files?) after stopping it.

Where am I wrong here? May be some of these methods should not be characterized 
as backups. Of the valid methods, which is most reliable and which is most easy 
to accomplish? Thanks.

Jay Kulsh
So. Pasadena, CA 93063
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ 
http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-01 Thread Terry Dickson
If you have moved to 2008 R2 the backup is pretty great.  We have some 
scheduled straight out of the GUI Interface, and Many scheduled with command 
line and task scheduler.  The Command line is more flexible and you can setup 
up multiple instances, where the GUI is limited to only one job.  We backup 
most of our VM's to onsite and offsite storage weekly.  Once you set them up 
just check in once in a while and make sure that are no errors like space 
issues you are good.  There are also many software vendors that have a 
solution, but I have not tried them yet.
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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RE: Microsoft VM - 5 ways of backing up?

2012-02-01 Thread Jay Kulsh
Terry,

I think you are backing up your VMs from the host machine which is Windows 2008 
R2. Right? Even with command-line of OBadmin, it is my understanding that you 
need to backup all VMs and entire partions where their files are. Is there 
option to backup individual VMs with command line of OBAdmin in R2? (I am using 
2008 host without R2.) Thanks.

Jay
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/  ~

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