RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
Yeah. We're definitely looking at a 3040 or 3140 depending on pricing. I'm really hoping for the 3140 for the extra processing power. He might be looking at SnapDrive for Windows for you. I think that might do what you're looking for. My problem I'm having right now is that I want to run Linux on my main system but I still need a Windows OS. I can't find a VIM client that runs on linux. Although this beauty is coming out, hopefully soon... http://www.bluebearllc.net/kodiak/ So I'd at least have a Hypervisor for my VMs. Jason -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:59 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation We are doing exactly that with a pair of S500's. My only advice on those is stay away, go with the full Netapp FAS line or evaluate against an EQ box. The S500's just don't really do it for me, although most of the features are there. The performance is not quite what we were sold it to be, but are currently in process of looking at upgrading them to their big brothers and putting in some Riverbed to accelerate the replication between the two sites with a lower bandwidth utilization. My only beef is our inability to map to the secondary storage on our remote S500 to pull files directly from it without having to break the snapmirror. An engineer is supposed to be calling me to discuss an option on that though. -Original Message- From: Jason Morris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:55 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Correct. NetApp uses WAFL, Write Anywhere File Layout, for their file system. What this allows them to do is quickly commit a write to disk. Fragmentation isn't an issue, according to their engineers. What that also allows them to do is create EXTREMELY quick snapshots of the volumes/aggregates. Because all they do is progress the volume writes to the nth value for that block. What that does also is have 0 cost snapshots. The only time it starts to cost you space is when you start changing blocks. And they only start costing blocks and not whole file sizes. I'm in love with my NetApp. We're having some growing pains with backups and because of that our dual SDLT320 isn't hanging with the jobs it is being asked to do on a daily basis. We were quoted over 100k for a new solution that includes dual LTO4 library with ndmp dumps from the servers. That's too much, so we're looking to bundle this with our DR solution for budgetary purposes. What NetApp allows us to do is put a filer at a remote site and snap mirror to it. That's a complete copy of the data or volume or aggregate, depending on how it's configured, on a schedule or real time. Another part of this is SnapVault where we can vault backups to an offsite filer and as long as we have the storage to handle it, we can keep quick and easily accessible backups for months offsite. Then we can dump to tape monthly or whenever we want. YMMV Jason -Original Message- From: Erik Goldoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 6:51 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Ok, let me ask a clarifying question ... Isn't NetApp a NAS (Network Attached Storage) and NOT a SAN. Their NetApp filer boxen run a proprietary file system, not the same as a SAN connected box running the native file system (NTFS) -Original Message- From: Robert Jackson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:07 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you (already virtualised people out there) are using an EMC solution with iSCSI (and or possibly FC) but I haven't heard much of NetApp. Pros/Cons? Steer well clear of etc etc would be a good starter for us. TIA. The information in this internet E-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access, copying or re-use of information in it by anyone else is unauthorised. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Walker Martyn Ltd or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Walker Martyn Ltd, company number SC197533. Company is registered in Scotland and has its registered office at 1 Park Circus Place, Glasgow G3 6AH, UK. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ No virus found in this incoming
RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
Ballpark pricing for the 'beginner' SAN package, you're looking at about: FAS2050 head £5k (2 needed for clustering/redundancy) Disk shelf with 14 x 300GB disks, £17k (Just need 1 disk shelf, but could for instance add) Disk shelf with 7TB SATA disks,£13k (... if you want more cheaper slower space) Software, per head (so x 2 if you've got clustered) SnapManager software for SQL backups £10k (sorry don't have a price for SnapManager for Virtual Infrastructure yet) SnapMirror SnapVault £8k (for replicating/backing up to another NetApp over WAN) NFS enable £5k CIFS shares enable £3k (Sorry, I don't have iSCSI or Fibre Channel enable prices) 3yr Support Warranty package £25k Course we get well and truely ripped off here in the UK so US peeps can probably just change those £ signs to $ and get a good estimate these days. And NetApp seem quite 'flexible' with their pricing, so go in hard and bargain the heck out of them. Excellent site for some pricing in US $ is: http://storagemojo.com/storagemojos-pricing-guide/ . Hope it helps, Steve. From: Jonathan Link [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 September 2008 18:11 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Model and $$'s? On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Steve Burkett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very incorrect. NetApp filers can be used as simple NAS devices if you wish, providing simple Windows network shares on an NFS based system if you wish. You see it as a server joined to your Active Directory domain, you browse to it and see the shares. .. or you can do the full bit level LUN thing to use it as a SAN type device. Enable Fibre Channel or iSCSI with a license key, partition up your disks, give your VMWare host server a chunk of disk to play with formatted with VMFS. Either way works. The deduplication features of the NetApp seem to work best with NFS however, and the killer feature on the NetApp's, their snapshot based backup and restore, likewise. With the Snapshots feature you can do a full backup or restore of 30GB+ databases or virtual machines in 3-5 seconds (!). Particularly if you use the new SnapManager for Virtual Infrastructure product which is VMWare aware and plays nicely with it, you can do your backups of live enviroments in a very small backup window, and restore far far quicker then conventional methods. There was a Webcast from NetApp the other month where a customer (one of Europe's biggest health care providers) was converting over to using NFS from iSCSI based LUN's for their VMWare farm as it was proving just as quick performance wise, much quicker to backup, and much simpler to manage. They had gone from Fibre Channel to iSCSI previously. With VMWare offering more and more support towards NFS, it seems to be the way things are going. -Original Message- From: Erik Goldoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 September 2008 00:51 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Ok, let me ask a clarifying question ... Isn't NetApp a NAS (Network Attached Storage) and NOT a SAN. Their NetApp filer boxen run a proprietary file system, not the same as a SAN connected box running the native file system (NTFS) -Original Message- From: Robert Jackson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:07 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you (already virtualised people out there) are using an EMC solution with iSCSI (and or possibly FC) but I haven't heard much of NetApp. Pros/Cons? Steer well clear of etc etc would be a good starter for us. TIA. The information in this internet E-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access, copying or re-use of information in it by anyone else is unauthorised. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Walker Martyn Ltd or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Walker Martyn Ltd, company number SC197533. Company is registered in Scotland and has its registered office at 1 Park Circus Place, Glasgow G3 6AH, UK. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business
RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
We've got a 270c that we're looking at doing the same sort of thing with. From what I can tell they're pushing the 3100 series (64 bit?) and trying to phase out the 3000 line (32 bit?). Was told they're able to do comparable prices on the 3100's at the moment. We're currently paying around £15k a month for an Asigra based online backup solution, so replacing it with this replicating SAN setup would show a good ROI fairly quickly. From: Jason Morris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 September 2008 15:58 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation We have a 2050 with 5TB total now...that would move to my DR site and we'd get a new 3x40 at corporate for the primary storage. Then sync+vault to the remote 2050. Thanks for that site! I can use that to help keep my vendor honest. J Jason From: Steve Burkett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:54 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Ballpark pricing for the 'beginner' SAN package, you're looking at about: FAS2050 head £5k (2 needed for clustering/redundancy) Disk shelf with 14 x 300GB disks, £17k (Just need 1 disk shelf, but could for instance add) Disk shelf with 7TB SATA disks,£13k (... if you want more cheaper slower space) Software, per head (so x 2 if you've got clustered) SnapManager software for SQL backups £10k (sorry don't have a price for SnapManager for Virtual Infrastructure yet) SnapMirror SnapVault £8k (for replicating/backing up to another NetApp over WAN) NFS enable £5k CIFS shares enable £3k (Sorry, I don't have iSCSI or Fibre Channel enable prices) 3yr Support Warranty package £25k Course we get well and truely ripped off here in the UK so US peeps can probably just change those £ signs to $ and get a good estimate these days. And NetApp seem quite 'flexible' with their pricing, so go in hard and bargain the heck out of them. Excellent site for some pricing in US $ is: http://storagemojo.com/storagemojos-pricing-guide/ . Hope it helps, Steve. From: Jonathan Link [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 September 2008 18:11 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Model and $$'s? On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Steve Burkett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very incorrect. NetApp filers can be used as simple NAS devices if you wish, providing simple Windows network shares on an NFS based system if you wish. You see it as a server joined to your Active Directory domain, you browse to it and see the shares. .. or you can do the full bit level LUN thing to use it as a SAN type device. Enable Fibre Channel or iSCSI with a license key, partition up your disks, give your VMWare host server a chunk of disk to play with formatted with VMFS. Either way works. The deduplication features of the NetApp seem to work best with NFS however, and the killer feature on the NetApp's, their snapshot based backup and restore, likewise. With the Snapshots feature you can do a full backup or restore of 30GB+ databases or virtual machines in 3-5 seconds (!). Particularly if you use the new SnapManager for Virtual Infrastructure product which is VMWare aware and plays nicely with it, you can do your backups of live enviroments in a very small backup window, and restore far far quicker then conventional methods. There was a Webcast from NetApp the other month where a customer (one of Europe's biggest health care providers) was converting over to using NFS from iSCSI based LUN's for their VMWare farm as it was proving just as quick performance wise, much quicker to backup, and much simpler to manage. They had gone from Fibre Channel to iSCSI previously. With VMWare offering more and more support towards NFS, it seems to be the way things are going. -Original Message- From: Erik Goldoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 September 2008 00:51 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Ok, let me ask a clarifying question ... Isn't NetApp a NAS (Network Attached Storage) and NOT a SAN. Their NetApp filer boxen run a proprietary file system, not the same as a SAN connected box running the native file system (NTFS) -Original Message- From: Robert Jackson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:07 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you
RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
I'm building our VMWare environment on NetApp right now. Just about the time I was getting into the testing and configuration of our ESX servers, I originally planned to use iSCSI on NetApp as the backend but stumbled across a TON of info regarding NFS. I grabbed a temp NFS key from our provider and started provisioning some NFS volumes to mount up on our ESX servers. http://storagefoo.blogspot.com/2007/09/vmware-over-nfs.html http://blog.scottlowe.org/2008/01/14/proving-vmware-over-nfs/ http://blogs.netapp.com/dave/2007/10/is-nfs-a-form-o.html The first link above is pretty telling. It explains a good deal of the WINS you'll get by using NFS over iSCSI. Performance was exemplary. I couldn't notice any discernible difference between booting an application server from a NFS volume or iSCSI volume. With ASIS I was able to clone 5 x 20GB windows 2003 servers with just an OS on them and dedup them down from 100GB of used space to about 6GB total across all 5. On iSCSI, it started to cause me some problems with slow boot, LONG nightly processing of ASIS, stuff like that. All 5 servers operated and behaved normally running from the ASIS-ed volume. Gotchas: 1) iSCSI isn't supported with jumbo frames from VMWare unless you're using an iscsi HBA. 2) VMWare recommended I turn off flowcontrol on my switches. 3) I was told not to put the vmkernel for iscsi and nfs on the same vlan/nic. 4) Exchange and SQL still need block level access to the storage. One of the vendors stated that we can mount up an iSCSI volume right to the ESX host and carve storage off that way for Exchange..another said we have to use RDMs to the client VMs for it. I haven't tested yet so the jury is out there. 5) Not necessarily a gotcha but something to keep in mind when deciding: My vendor that sold me my netapp recommends that when provisioning an iSCSI LUN, make the total volume 220% of the total space of the LUNS it holds. So, 100GB LUN needs 220GB of volume space. This is for snapshotting and other overheads. YMMV Good Luck, Jason -Original Message- From: Robert Jackson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 7:07 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you (already virtualised people out there) are using an EMC solution with iSCSI (and or possibly FC) but I haven't heard much of NetApp. Pros/Cons? Steer well clear of etc etc would be a good starter for us. TIA. The information in this internet E-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access, copying or re-use of information in it by anyone else is unauthorised. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Walker Martyn Ltd or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Walker Martyn Ltd, company number SC197533. Company is registered in Scotland and has its registered office at 1 Park Circus Place, Glasgow G3 6AH, UK. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ -- The pages accompanying this email transmission contain information from MJMC, Inc., which is confidential and/or privileged. The information is to be for the use of the individual or entity named on this cover sheet. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone so that we can arrange for the retrieval of the original document. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
I love my NetApp SAN with NFS. It rocks the socks and with dedupe it's even better. On 9/9/08, Robert Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you (already virtualised people out there) are using an EMC solution with iSCSI (and or possibly FC) but I haven't heard much of NetApp. Pros/Cons? Steer well clear of etc etc would be a good starter for us. TIA. The information in this internet E-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access, copying or re-use of information in it by anyone else is unauthorised. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Walker Martyn Ltd or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Walker Martyn Ltd, company number SC197533. Company is registered in Scotland and has its registered office at 1 Park Circus Place, Glasgow G3 6AH, UK. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
We have a 100TB NetApp SAN that hosts most of our production virtualised infrastructure. The storage guys say that it's very nice to administer, and the price is much less than a comparable EMC. Also, just about all of the NetApp kit uses the same hardware so you don't need to throw a bunch of stuff away if you decide you need to more spindles/shelves etc. We're using iSCSI rather than FC Cheers Ken -Original Message- From: Robert Jackson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 9 September 2008 10:07 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you (already virtualised people out there) are using an EMC solution with iSCSI (and or possibly FC) but I haven't heard much of NetApp. Pros/Cons? Steer well clear of etc etc would be a good starter for us. TIA. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
Ok, let me ask a clarifying question ... Isn't NetApp a NAS (Network Attached Storage) and NOT a SAN. Their NetApp filer boxen run a proprietary file system, not the same as a SAN connected box running the native file system (NTFS) -Original Message- From: Robert Jackson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:07 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you (already virtualised people out there) are using an EMC solution with iSCSI (and or possibly FC) but I haven't heard much of NetApp. Pros/Cons? Steer well clear of etc etc would be a good starter for us. TIA. The information in this internet E-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access, copying or re-use of information in it by anyone else is unauthorised. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Walker Martyn Ltd or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Walker Martyn Ltd, company number SC197533. Company is registered in Scotland and has its registered office at 1 Park Circus Place, Glasgow G3 6AH, UK. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1662 - Release Date: 9/9/2008 10:47 AM ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
It can be whatever you want. It does FC or iSCSI. As others have said, it blows the doors off of EMC... On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Erik Goldoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, let me ask a clarifying question ... Isn't NetApp a NAS (Network Attached Storage) and NOT a SAN. Their NetApp filer boxen run a proprietary file system, not the same as a SAN connected box running the native file system (NTFS) -Original Message- From: Robert Jackson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:07 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you (already virtualised people out there) are using an EMC solution with iSCSI (and or possibly FC) but I haven't heard much of NetApp. Pros/Cons? Steer well clear of etc etc would be a good starter for us. TIA. The information in this internet E-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access, copying or re-use of information in it by anyone else is unauthorised. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Walker Martyn Ltd or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Walker Martyn Ltd, company number SC197533. Company is registered in Scotland and has its registered office at 1 Park Circus Place, Glasgow G3 6AH, UK. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1662 - Release Date: 9/9/2008 10:47 AM ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
Very incorrect. NetApp filers can be used as simple NAS devices if you wish, providing simple Windows network shares on an NFS based system if you wish. You see it as a server joined to your Active Directory domain, you browse to it and see the shares. .. or you can do the full bit level LUN thing to use it as a SAN type device. Enable Fibre Channel or iSCSI with a license key, partition up your disks, give your VMWare host server a chunk of disk to play with formatted with VMFS. Either way works. The deduplication features of the NetApp seem to work best with NFS however, and the killer feature on the NetApp's, their snapshot based backup and restore, likewise. With the Snapshots feature you can do a full backup or restore of 30GB+ databases or virtual machines in 3-5 seconds (!). Particularly if you use the new SnapManager for Virtual Infrastructure product which is VMWare aware and plays nicely with it, you can do your backups of live enviroments in a very small backup window, and restore far far quicker then conventional methods. There was a Webcast from NetApp the other month where a customer (one of Europe's biggest health care providers) was converting over to using NFS from iSCSI based LUN's for their VMWare farm as it was proving just as quick performance wise, much quicker to backup, and much simpler to manage. They had gone from Fibre Channel to iSCSI previously. With VMWare offering more and more support towards NFS, it seems to be the way things are going. -Original Message- From: Erik Goldoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 September 2008 00:51 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Ok, let me ask a clarifying question ... Isn't NetApp a NAS (Network Attached Storage) and NOT a SAN. Their NetApp filer boxen run a proprietary file system, not the same as a SAN connected box running the native file system (NTFS) -Original Message- From: Robert Jackson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:07 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you (already virtualised people out there) are using an EMC solution with iSCSI (and or possibly FC) but I haven't heard much of NetApp. Pros/Cons? Steer well clear of etc etc would be a good starter for us. TIA. The information in this internet E-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access, copying or re-use of information in it by anyone else is unauthorised. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Walker Martyn Ltd or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Walker Martyn Ltd, company number SC197533. Company is registered in Scotland and has its registered office at 1 Park Circus Place, Glasgow G3 6AH, UK. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1662 - Release Date: 9/9/2008 10:47 AM ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ === STEMCOR CONFIDENTIALITY AND DISCLAIMER NOTICE This e-mail is intended only for the addressees named in it. The contents should not be disclosed to any other person nor copies taken. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the sender and do not necessarily represent those of Stemcor unless otherwise specifically stated. Stemcor does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message nor responsibility for any change made to it after it was sent by the original sender. You are advised to carry out a virus check before opening any attachment as Stemcor does not accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of any software viruses. You should be aware that Stemcor reserves the right to read incoming and outgoing emails. === ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
as I'm learning g ...I haven't actually put my hands on a NetApp filer in about 4 years or so (at least) and I wasn't impressed then, but 4 years is computer years is a LONG time ... _ From: Don Ely [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:44 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: Re: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation It can be whatever you want. It does FC or iSCSI. As others have said, it blows the doors off of EMC... On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Erik Goldoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, let me ask a clarifying question ... Isn't NetApp a NAS (Network Attached Storage) and NOT a SAN. Their NetApp filer boxen run a proprietary file system, not the same as a SAN connected box running the native file system (NTFS) -Original Message- From: Robert Jackson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:07 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you (already virtualised people out there) are using an EMC solution with iSCSI (and or possibly FC) but I haven't heard much of NetApp. Pros/Cons? Steer well clear of etc etc would be a good starter for us. TIA. The information in this internet E-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access, copying or re-use of information in it by anyone else is unauthorised. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Walker Martyn Ltd or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Walker Martyn Ltd, company number SC197533. Company is registered in Scotland and has its registered office at 1 Park Circus Place, Glasgow G3 6AH, UK. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com http://www.avg.com/ Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1662 - Release Date: 9/9/2008 10:47 AM ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1664 - Release Date: 9/11/2008 7:03 AM ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
Correct. NetApp uses WAFL, Write Anywhere File Layout, for their file system. What this allows them to do is quickly commit a write to disk. Fragmentation isn't an issue, according to their engineers. What that also allows them to do is create EXTREMELY quick snapshots of the volumes/aggregates. Because all they do is progress the volume writes to the nth value for that block. What that does also is have 0 cost snapshots. The only time it starts to cost you space is when you start changing blocks. And they only start costing blocks and not whole file sizes. I'm in love with my NetApp. We're having some growing pains with backups and because of that our dual SDLT320 isn't hanging with the jobs it is being asked to do on a daily basis. We were quoted over 100k for a new solution that includes dual LTO4 library with ndmp dumps from the servers. That's too much, so we're looking to bundle this with our DR solution for budgetary purposes. What NetApp allows us to do is put a filer at a remote site and snap mirror to it. That's a complete copy of the data or volume or aggregate, depending on how it's configured, on a schedule or real time. Another part of this is SnapVault where we can vault backups to an offsite filer and as long as we have the storage to handle it, we can keep quick and easily accessible backups for months offsite. Then we can dump to tape monthly or whenever we want. YMMV Jason -Original Message- From: Erik Goldoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 6:51 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Ok, let me ask a clarifying question ... Isn't NetApp a NAS (Network Attached Storage) and NOT a SAN. Their NetApp filer boxen run a proprietary file system, not the same as a SAN connected box running the native file system (NTFS) -Original Message- From: Robert Jackson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:07 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you (already virtualised people out there) are using an EMC solution with iSCSI (and or possibly FC) but I haven't heard much of NetApp. Pros/Cons? Steer well clear of etc etc would be a good starter for us. TIA. The information in this internet E-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access, copying or re-use of information in it by anyone else is unauthorised. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Walker Martyn Ltd or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Walker Martyn Ltd, company number SC197533. Company is registered in Scotland and has its registered office at 1 Park Circus Place, Glasgow G3 6AH, UK. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1662 - Release Date: 9/9/2008 10:47 AM ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3434 (20080911) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- The pages accompanying this email transmission contain information from MJMC, Inc., which is confidential and/or privileged. The information is to be for the use of the individual or entity named on this cover sheet. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone so that we can arrange for the retrieval of the original document. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
It had been about 7 for me, but they have come a long, long way... On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Erik Goldoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as I'm learning g ...I haven't actually put my hands on a NetApp filer in about 4 years or so (at least) and I wasn't impressed then, but 4 years is computer years is a LONG time ... -- *From:* Don Ely [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Sent:* Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:44 AM *To:* NT System Admin Issues *Subject:* Re: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation It can be whatever you want. It does FC or iSCSI. As others have said, it blows the doors off of EMC... On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Erik Goldoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, let me ask a clarifying question ... Isn't NetApp a NAS (Network Attached Storage) and NOT a SAN. Their NetApp filer boxen run a proprietary file system, not the same as a SAN connected box running the native file system (NTFS) -Original Message- From: Robert Jackson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:07 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you (already virtualised people out there) are using an EMC solution with iSCSI (and or possibly FC) but I haven't heard much of NetApp. Pros/Cons? Steer well clear of etc etc would be a good starter for us. TIA. The information in this internet E-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access, copying or re-use of information in it by anyone else is unauthorised. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Walker Martyn Ltd or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Walker Martyn Ltd, company number SC197533. Company is registered in Scotland and has its registered office at 1 Park Circus Place, Glasgow G3 6AH, UK. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1662 - Release Date: 9/9/2008 10:47 AM ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1664 - Release Date: 9/11/2008 7:03 AM ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
No. NetApp is a SAN and a NAS and has been designed from the ground up to be that way. Typically when you see a device that does both, it was designed to be one or the other and has been tweaked to do the opposite of what it was designed to do. NetApp runs DataOnTap which is their proprietary OS. What FS you run on your LUNs is no concern to NetApp / OnTap. For example, NTFS. I create a volume for my LUN's. Use SnapDrive on the Windows host to create the LUN, attach it and give it a drive letter, then it formats it as NTFS. NetApp doesn't care. As for NAS, create volume, use the CIFS wizard (or however you want to do it on the filer) and create the share. You can manage the permissions on the share or folders just like any system. You can use the Computer Management MMC to do the share perms or whatever you want. You treat it just like you would any file share. -Original Message- From: Erik Goldoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 4:51 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Ok, let me ask a clarifying question ... Isn't NetApp a NAS (Network Attached Storage) and NOT a SAN. Their NetApp filer boxen run a proprietary file system, not the same as a SAN connected box running the native file system (NTFS) -Original Message- From: Robert Jackson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:07 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you (already virtualised people out there) are using an EMC solution with iSCSI (and or possibly FC) but I haven't heard much of NetApp. Pros/Cons? Steer well clear of etc etc would be a good starter for us. TIA. The information in this internet E-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access, copying or re-use of information in it by anyone else is unauthorised. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Walker Martyn Ltd or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Walker Martyn Ltd, company number SC197533. Company is registered in Scotland and has its registered office at 1 Park Circus Place, Glasgow G3 6AH, UK. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1662 - Release Date: 9/9/2008 10:47 AM ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
The line between SAN and NAS devices is blurring or even being erased with enterprise-level gear. Traditional SAN (iSCSI and FC) devices (like EMC) are adding NAS protocols - FTP, NFS, CIFS/SMB, and traditional NAS devices (like NetApp) are adding SAN protocols. Some relative newcomers (Equalogic) are multi-protocol from the start. As shown by this discussion, different vendors have varying levels of succcess - NetApp Filers were originally NFS network-attached storage devices, so it makes sense that they handle NFS better than they to iSCSI. Erik Goldoff wrote: Ok, let me ask a clarifying question ... Isn't NetApp a NAS (Network Attached Storage) and NOT a SAN. Their NetApp filer boxen run a proprietary file system, not the same as a SAN connected box running the native file system (NTFS) -- Phil Brutsche [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
Re: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
Model and $$'s? On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Steve Burkett [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Very incorrect. NetApp filers can be used as simple NAS devices if you wish, providing simple Windows network shares on an NFS based system if you wish. You see it as a server joined to your Active Directory domain, you browse to it and see the shares. .. or you can do the full bit level LUN thing to use it as a SAN type device. Enable Fibre Channel or iSCSI with a license key, partition up your disks, give your VMWare host server a chunk of disk to play with formatted with VMFS. Either way works. The deduplication features of the NetApp seem to work best with NFS however, and the killer feature on the NetApp's, their snapshot based backup and restore, likewise. With the Snapshots feature you can do a full backup or restore of 30GB+ databases or virtual machines in 3-5 seconds (!). Particularly if you use the new SnapManager for Virtual Infrastructure product which is VMWare aware and plays nicely with it, you can do your backups of live enviroments in a very small backup window, and restore far far quicker then conventional methods. There was a Webcast from NetApp the other month where a customer (one of Europe's biggest health care providers) was converting over to using NFS from iSCSI based LUN's for their VMWare farm as it was proving just as quick performance wise, much quicker to backup, and much simpler to manage. They had gone from Fibre Channel to iSCSI previously. With VMWare offering more and more support towards NFS, it seems to be the way things are going. -Original Message- From: Erik Goldoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 September 2008 00:51 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Ok, let me ask a clarifying question ... Isn't NetApp a NAS (Network Attached Storage) and NOT a SAN. Their NetApp filer boxen run a proprietary file system, not the same as a SAN connected box running the native file system (NTFS) -Original Message- From: Robert Jackson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:07 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you (already virtualised people out there) are using an EMC solution with iSCSI (and or possibly FC) but I haven't heard much of NetApp. Pros/Cons? Steer well clear of etc etc would be a good starter for us. TIA. The information in this internet E-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access, copying or re-use of information in it by anyone else is unauthorised. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Walker Martyn Ltd or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Walker Martyn Ltd, company number SC197533. Company is registered in Scotland and has its registered office at 1 Park Circus Place, Glasgow G3 6AH, UK. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1662 - Release Date: 9/9/2008 10:47 AM ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ === STEMCOR CONFIDENTIALITY AND DISCLAIMER NOTICE This e-mail is intended only for the addressees named in it. The contents should not be disclosed to any other person nor copies taken. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the sender and do not necessarily represent those of Stemcor unless otherwise specifically stated. Stemcor does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message nor responsibility for any change made to it after it was sent by the original sender. You are advised to carry out a virus check before opening any attachment as Stemcor does not accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of any software viruses. You should be aware that Stemcor reserves the right to read incoming and outgoing emails. === ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~
RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation
We are doing exactly that with a pair of S500's. My only advice on those is stay away, go with the full Netapp FAS line or evaluate against an EQ box. The S500's just don't really do it for me, although most of the features are there. The performance is not quite what we were sold it to be, but are currently in process of looking at upgrading them to their big brothers and putting in some Riverbed to accelerate the replication between the two sites with a lower bandwidth utilization. My only beef is our inability to map to the secondary storage on our remote S500 to pull files directly from it without having to break the snapmirror. An engineer is supposed to be calling me to discuss an option on that though. -Original Message- From: Jason Morris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 11:55 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Correct. NetApp uses WAFL, Write Anywhere File Layout, for their file system. What this allows them to do is quickly commit a write to disk. Fragmentation isn't an issue, according to their engineers. What that also allows them to do is create EXTREMELY quick snapshots of the volumes/aggregates. Because all they do is progress the volume writes to the nth value for that block. What that does also is have 0 cost snapshots. The only time it starts to cost you space is when you start changing blocks. And they only start costing blocks and not whole file sizes. I'm in love with my NetApp. We're having some growing pains with backups and because of that our dual SDLT320 isn't hanging with the jobs it is being asked to do on a daily basis. We were quoted over 100k for a new solution that includes dual LTO4 library with ndmp dumps from the servers. That's too much, so we're looking to bundle this with our DR solution for budgetary purposes. What NetApp allows us to do is put a filer at a remote site and snap mirror to it. That's a complete copy of the data or volume or aggregate, depending on how it's configured, on a schedule or real time. Another part of this is SnapVault where we can vault backups to an offsite filer and as long as we have the storage to handle it, we can keep quick and easily accessible backups for months offsite. Then we can dump to tape monthly or whenever we want. YMMV Jason -Original Message- From: Erik Goldoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 6:51 PM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Ok, let me ask a clarifying question ... Isn't NetApp a NAS (Network Attached Storage) and NOT a SAN. Their NetApp filer boxen run a proprietary file system, not the same as a SAN connected box running the native file system (NTFS) -Original Message- From: Robert Jackson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 8:07 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: NetApp SAN For Virtualisation Just looking for some feedback. Is/has anyone used NetApp as their backend in a VMWare solution? We've had someone in this morning talking to us about going down the virtualisation road and their backend SAN solution is NetApp using NFS. I know lots of you (already virtualised people out there) are using an EMC solution with iSCSI (and or possibly FC) but I haven't heard much of NetApp. Pros/Cons? Steer well clear of etc etc would be a good starter for us. TIA. The information in this internet E-mail is confidential and is intended solely for the addressee. Access, copying or re-use of information in it by anyone else is unauthorised. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Walker Martyn Ltd or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Walker Martyn Ltd, company number SC197533. Company is registered in Scotland and has its registered office at 1 Park Circus Place, Glasgow G3 6AH, UK. ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1662 - Release Date: 9/9/2008 10:47 AM ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/ ~ __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3434 (20080911) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- The pages accompanying this email transmission contain information from MJMC, Inc., which is confidential and/or privileged. The information is to be for the use of the individual or entity
