RE: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

[Ian Roche]

We have an SQL vm already setup using ISCSI point at luns on the san using the 
equallogic mpio this is very straight forward to configure and works well. We 
wont be clustering the file server it will be a single vm protected by the usua 
vmware features. Its just the backend I am interested in. As I said I am well 
aware of the available methods but I was interested if anyone had deployed a 
large file server using vmfs volumes instead of iscsi mappings or rdms.
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RE: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

[N Parr]

I'm basically doing the same thing you want to, just not the amount of
data you are talking about.  I have my 2008R2 VM connected to it's file
share data via Iscsi initiator inside the VM.  That way the volumes can
be directly snapped on my EQ boxes without any concern for the VM
itself.  I've never had to use it though with shadow copies turned on.
My PS5000 and 6000 are both configured for Raid 50.  With the VMWare HA
in place I don't really see the need for clustered storage, but your
requirements may be different.  I'm not doing MPIO on the file server,
don't need to for the few hundred meg of data on it.  But I am doing
MPIO for my VM SQL Boxes.  And soon Exchange. VMWare has a excellent
white paper on best practices for Exchange 2010 running in a VM using
Iscsi and MPIO.  

-Original Message-
From: Ian Roche [mailto:iro...@curamsoftware.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 10:02 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

Hi Guys,

I am about to undertake a new project which as the subject line states
its turning our current file server into a vm. Its currently a clustered
windows system (2 x nx1950's) connected via SAS to an md3000 + md1000.
The quantity of data living on the storage is in or around 6TB (allot of
this would be static) and its split over 2TB drives.The. We have a
relatively new vmware environment consisting of 4 hosts (Dell R900's and
M710 blades running ESXi4) they are connected to ISCSI Equallogic PS6000
units which are all in a RAID50 config.

That's the hardware background, my query is around the virtualization of
the storage for the virtual file server. I have read a number of article
but would be interested if anyone has "real world" experience of what
the feel works or definitely doesn't work. My plan is to have a small
front end vm running win srv 2008 r2 ( just a single vm that will be
protected by vmware HA) sitting in front of the storage . My question is
how do you guys think its best presented I'm leaning towards standard
vmfs datastores on dedicated 2tb luns purely being accessed by this new
vm or using the equallogic mpio and the windows iscsi initiator to
present the storage this way (which we have done on a couple of sql
boxes already). From what I have read so far I don't see any particular
reason to go down the RDM route other than some people saying if you
have large drives the rdm path can be a good idea. I don't see a huge
performance difference between vmfs and rdm in any of the documentation
I have read to date. 


I would appreciate any comments or suggestions on this one its at an
early stage but I just want to get the map down for the migration.
Whatever route I choose the swap over will be done inline, I will
migrate the data to the new vm (using robocopy) kill access to the
physical box do a final diff and name the virtual system to the correct
name (the fqdn is very important in my company it referenced in allot of
build scripts as we are a software house).

Cheers
Ian
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Re: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

[Ian Roche]

Equallogic snapshots work very well we use them as one of our backup methods. I 
think he was referring to a vm level snapshot which is something we wouldn't be 
doing. 
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Re: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

[Jonathan Link]

You can do snapshots with EqualLogic arrays...  And even mount them as a
separate volume.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Mayo, Bill wrote:

>  The main benefit from using a VMDK would be snapshots, I imagine.  We did
> a similar thing and I ultimately decided to mount the storage as a raw LUN.
> I chose that direction because I felt it was the most flexible thing to do,
> and I was concerned about the extra overhead the VMDK added in dealing with
> millions of files.
>
>  --
> *From:* Jonathan Link [mailto:jonathan.l...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:39 AM
>
> *To:* NT System Admin Issues
> *Subject:* Re: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.
>
>   So, does your current backup plan handle 2TB files well, or however
> large you plan to create the vmdk files?
> I'll admit, I'm unfamiliar with this notion of using a VMDK/vmfs on a SAN
> for what is ultimately file storage.  My gut is telling me that it is just
> adding needless complexity for little (if any?) benefit.  I actually never
> considered doing something like this.
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Ian Roche wrote:
>
>> "I've seen comments and have been advised by a couple of vendors that
>> vmware don't support MPIO from within the guest, so if you want to do MPIO
>> to the LUNs you might be faced with using VMDK or RDM. "
>>
>>
>> I havent heard this one before we are using the "Dell Equallogic MPIO"
>> connecting to PS6000 arrays via the guest not sure why we would really need
>> suppor from vmware on this side of things.
>>
>> Regarding the files living in a vmdk the system will be fully protected
>> and backed up using veeam if we do go down this route.
>>  ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
>> ~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~
>>
>> ---
>> To manage subscriptions click here:
>> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/
>> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com
>> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin
>>
>
> ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
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>
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Re: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

[Ian Roche]

The backup solution will be robust we are implementing a new hardware layer for 
this using disk based backup . Regarding the vmfs solution being more complex 
the idea is its allot more easier to manage. From reading allot of 
documentation it seems to be indicating the vmfs volumes with large disks is a 
viable option just look at the link below for some info. Initially I would not 
have imagined his would be recommended at all but it doesn't seem to be the 
case . Maybe the improvement in the vmfs file system has brought it to this 
point. I don't think there is much difference in terms of performance when it 
comes to vmfs v rdm.


http://communities.vmware.com/docs/DOC-10799
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RE: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

[Paul Hutchings]

You really don't want to be taking snapshots of that kind of data volume
at VMDK level.  The IO when you delete the snapshots and it does the
merge will be simple horrific.

 

RDM or MS iSCSI from within the guest would get my vote (I'll be making
the same decision in a couple of months just with a P4000 rather than
Equallogic).

 

From: Mayo, Bill [mailto:bem...@pittcountync.gov] 
Sent: 28 October 2010 16:46
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

 

The main benefit from using a VMDK would be snapshots, I imagine.  We
did a similar thing and I ultimately decided to mount the storage as a
raw LUN.  I chose that direction because I felt it was the most flexible
thing to do, and I was concerned about the extra overhead the VMDK added
in dealing with millions of files.

 



From: Jonathan Link [mailto:jonathan.l...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:39 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

So, does your current backup plan handle 2TB files well, or however
large you plan to create the vmdk files?

I'll admit, I'm unfamiliar with this notion of using a VMDK/vmfs on a
SAN for what is ultimately file storage.  My gut is telling me that it
is just adding needless complexity for little (if any?) benefit.  I
actually never considered doing something like this.


 

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Ian Roche 
wrote:

"I've seen comments and have been advised by a couple of vendors that
vmware don't support MPIO from within the guest, so if you want to do
MPIO to the LUNs you might be faced with using VMDK or RDM. "



I havent heard this one before we are using the "Dell Equallogic MPIO"
connecting to PS6000 arrays via the guest not sure why we would really
need suppor from vmware on this side of things.

Regarding the files living in a vmdk the system will be fully protected
and backed up using veeam if we do go down this route.

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

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RE: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

[Mayo, Bill]

The main benefit from using a VMDK would be snapshots, I imagine.  We
did a similar thing and I ultimately decided to mount the storage as a
raw LUN.  I chose that direction because I felt it was the most flexible
thing to do, and I was concerned about the extra overhead the VMDK added
in dealing with millions of files.



From: Jonathan Link [mailto:jonathan.l...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:39 AM
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Re: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.


So, does your current backup plan handle 2TB files well, or however
large you plan to create the vmdk files?
I'll admit, I'm unfamiliar with this notion of using a VMDK/vmfs on a
SAN for what is ultimately file storage.  My gut is telling me that it
is just adding needless complexity for little (if any?) benefit.  I
actually never considered doing something like this.

 
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Ian Roche 
wrote:


"I've seen comments and have been advised by a couple of vendors
that vmware don't support MPIO from within the guest, so if you want to
do MPIO to the LUNs you might be faced with using VMDK or RDM. "



I havent heard this one before we are using the "Dell Equallogic
MPIO" connecting to PS6000 arrays via the guest not sure why we would
really need suppor from vmware on this side of things.

Regarding the files living in a vmdk the system will be fully
protected and backed up using veeam if we do go down this route.

~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog!
~
~ <http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

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Re: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

[Jonathan Link]

So, does your current backup plan handle 2TB files well, or however large
you plan to create the vmdk files?
I'll admit, I'm unfamiliar with this notion of using a VMDK/vmfs on a SAN
for what is ultimately file storage.  My gut is telling me that it is just
adding needless complexity for little (if any?) benefit.  I actually never
considered doing something like this.


On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Ian Roche wrote:

> "I've seen comments and have been advised by a couple of vendors that
> vmware don't support MPIO from within the guest, so if you want to do MPIO
> to the LUNs you might be faced with using VMDK or RDM. "
>
>
> I havent heard this one before we are using the "Dell Equallogic MPIO"
> connecting to PS6000 arrays via the guest not sure why we would really need
> suppor from vmware on this side of things.
>
> Regarding the files living in a vmdk the system will be fully protected and
> backed up using veeam if we do go down this route.
>  ~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
> ~   ~
>
> ---
> To manage subscriptions click here:
> http://lyris.sunbelt-software.com/read/my_forums/
> or send an email to listmana...@lyris.sunbeltsoftware.com
> with the body: unsubscribe ntsysadmin
>

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RE: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

[Paul Hutchings]

That's the fun part, it's all anecdotal, I can find nothing in black and white 
from vmware but I can't figure out why a vendor would tell me that either, so 
make of it what you will I guess, just something to throw into the mix.

-Original Message-
From: Ian Roche [mailto:iro...@curamsoftware.com] 
Sent: 28 October 2010 16:15
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: RE: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

"I've seen comments and have been advised by a couple of vendors that vmware 
don't support MPIO from within the guest, so if you want to do MPIO to the LUNs 
you might be faced with using VMDK or RDM. "


I havent heard this one before we are using the "Dell Equallogic MPIO" 
connecting to PS6000 arrays via the guest not sure why we would really need 
suppor from vmware on this side of things.

Regarding the files living in a vmdk the system will be fully protected and 
backed up using veeam if we do go down this route.
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~ ~ 
<http://www.sunbeltsoftware.com/Business/VIPRE-Enterprise/>  ~

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RE: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

[Ian Roche]

"I've seen comments and have been advised by a couple of vendors that vmware 
don't support MPIO from within the guest, so if you want to do MPIO to the LUNs 
you might be faced with using VMDK or RDM. "


I havent heard this one before we are using the "Dell Equallogic MPIO" 
connecting to PS6000 arrays via the guest not sure why we would really need 
suppor from vmware on this side of things.

Regarding the files living in a vmdk the system will be fully protected and 
backed up using veeam if we do go down this route.
~ Finally, powerful endpoint security that ISN'T a resource hog! ~
~   ~

---
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RE: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

[Paul Hutchings]

I've seen comments and have been advised by a couple of vendors that vmware 
don't support MPIO from within the guest, so if you want to do MPIO to the LUNs 
you might be faced with using VMDK or RDM.

I've never pinned them down on a black and white source for this, but I can't 
see why they'd make it up as it's in their interests for me to be using guest 
MPIO.

Personally I wouldn't want the file data on VMDK's simply because you're hugely 
limiting what you can do with it.

-Original Message-
From: Ian Roche [mailto:iro...@curamsoftware.com] 
Sent: 28 October 2010 16:02
To: NT System Admin Issues
Subject: Virtualization of file server - storage recommendations.

Hi Guys,

I am about to undertake a new project which as the subject line states its 
turning our current file server into a vm. Its currently a clustered windows 
system (2 x nx1950's) connected via SAS to an md3000 + md1000. The quantity of 
data living on the storage is in or around 6TB (allot of this would be static) 
and its split over 2TB drives.The. We have a relatively new vmware environment 
consisting of 4 hosts (Dell R900's and M710 blades running ESXi4) they are 
connected to ISCSI Equallogic PS6000 units which are all in a RAID50 config.

That's the hardware background, my query is around the virtualization of the 
storage for the virtual file server. I have read a number of article but would 
be interested if anyone has "real world" experience of what the feel works or 
definitely doesn't work. My plan is to have a small front end vm running win 
srv 2008 r2 ( just a single vm that will be protected by vmware HA) sitting in 
front of the storage . My question is how do you guys think its best presented 
I'm leaning towards standard vmfs datastores on dedicated 2tb luns purely being 
accessed by this new vm or using the equallogic mpio and the windows iscsi 
initiator to present the storage this way (which we have done on a couple of 
sql boxes already). From what I have read so far I don't see any particular 
reason to go down the RDM route other than some people saying if you have large 
drives the rdm path can be a good idea. I don't see a huge performance 
difference between vmfs and rdm in any of the documentation I have read to 
date. 


I would appreciate any comments or suggestions on this one its at an early 
stage but I just want to get the map down for the migration. Whatever route I 
choose the swap over will be done inline, I will migrate the data to the new vm 
(using robocopy) kill access to the physical box do a final diff and name the 
virtual system to the correct name (the fqdn is very important in my company it 
referenced in allot of build scripts as we are a software house).

Cheers
Ian
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  ~

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