Re: The Impossible Question
Great discussion on an important topic. If I may, I'd like to add a ux perspective. Support and help systems are very important and necessary, however, my goal is to mitigate the need to such assets at the tool level. For example, rather than put energey into updating the install documents, we could explore design alternatives to deliver a better install experience. One click install, with popular app marketplace integrations and easy updates come to mind. Then provide a great first use experience that helps users add extensions and configure their tools. More broadly, beyond install and config, we could look to bring the great support and user assistance assets to the user in the context of the tool itself. For example, we could integrate help and support into the task pane (side bar). Regards, Kevin On Sunday, October 28, 2012, Kay Schenk wrote: On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 11:57 AM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.orgjavascript:; wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:57 PM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.netjavascript:; wrote: On Oct 26, 2012, at 2:06 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: Hi Every now and then a user finds the experience of downloading, installing, using AOO disappointing and frankly frustrating if not worse. They will usually go to the user forums, but sometimes they will contact the Apache Foundation directly. Okay, but this does not really help them. What we did with OpenOffice was set up a Support page, which has since been moved to here, http://www.openoffice.org/support/. It's pretty much an improved version of the old but of course the ecosystem needs further fleshing out—it suffers from a lack of substantial existence. I'm also not persuaded that the route to it from either the application download page or homepage or wherever is redundantly clear enough for the befuddled enduser who installs AOO to replace his or her whatever suite and doesn't really know where to go….. So, my query is the usual impossible question: What can we do to make it clearer to the puzzled and frustrated how to get help? Sure, we can have a knowledge base (kb), FAQ, etc., and also enthusiastic community members. But what would you suggest as a path, or paths for the user? I personally would include something in the installation sets that point to the support page above; but also banners, say, or tags, stickers—glaringly obvious neon coloured blinking lights?—to relay users to useful pages. Ideas? We could emulate a version of what the ASF does to highlight the many projects. Take a look at www.apache.org - you will see a feature project section. Perhaps on www.openoffice.org we can add a Featured Support Question / Language / News. This would be backed by an xml file of FAQs, Languages and News which would randomly be selected every day and republished to the front page. I like the idea in general, but from a support perspective I think we need to get the feed down to the client. Why? Because users have no current reason to visit www.openoffice.org homepage on a regular basis. It is not really a necessary place for them to visit, once they've downloaded. Most users just want to get their work done. They don't have any emotional attachment to AOO. It is just a tool. If they are thinking about their tools rather then their work, then something is probably wrong. This is not sexy, Apple-like technology that users go gooey over. It is a good day that a user thinks about their document, but not about their word processor. The task is in the forefront, the tool recedes into the background, like any good tool an extension of the user. Well, that's one ideal, at least. So in terms of priorities, we should want: 1) Fewer bugs, not more bug FAQ's 2) Less need for support, not a more prominent support page Well this is the ideal of course. In some cases though, what a user already has running on their system may be a major culprit and something we can't control or deal with easily (yep! I spent a number of years in User Support as well). 3) More quick avenues for self-help rather than hard-to-scale support offerings 4) More skill-building pages, ways user can become more productive with the tools. We could make a destination that users would actually visit if we could pull together solid content on power tips, extensions reviews, lists of topical templates (for holidays, tax time, etc.). -Rob I don't know ANYTHING about how the Help (the Support menu item) pages for AOO are constructed (maybe time I learned?). There's already a LOT of information under Common Help Topics. But, maybe we need to spend some time revisiting this area and see if the topics still meet current needs (in the product itself). Some of the issues that have been reported recently are very odd but maybe there's a reason. This would be the most
Re: [ApacheCon] BoF session on AOO community
On 29/10/2012 Roberto Galoppini wrote: A more diverse and sustainable project. For example, until few years ago having OOo integrated or at least able to interoperate with SAP was a distinct dream, is there any chance we can have the right SAP people to attend the AOO BoF, and discuss about this? This would be quite interesting too. I don't have any contacts, but it would be good to have SAP people there and, in general, devote a part of the session to exploring how OpenOffice can interoperate with other solutions (or what the OpenOffice community can do to allow others to be able to integrate with OpenOffice more easily), so not only the community in a strict sense but the ecosystem around it too. Regards, Andrea.
Re: how can i do to have the odfValidator source because of source code url doesn't work
Hi, first of all this is a mailing list and you don't receive any replies if you are not subscribed or the sender put you on cc (as I did ) The ODFToolkit project moved over to Apache as well and the project can be found today under http://incubator.apache.org/odftoolkit/ And the sources for the validator can be found under http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/incubator/odf/trunk/validator/ Kind regards Juergen On 10/31/12 8:58 AM, Prat wrote: Hello, there is now longer than the url: http://odftoolkit.org/projects/conformancetools/sources/odf-validator-src/show doesn't work. how can i do to have the odfValidator source. Best regards, Philippe Prat Département Archivage et Diffusion Centre Informatique National de l’Enseignement Supérieur 950, rue de Saint Priest 34097 MONTPELLIER cedex 5 Tél. : 04 67 14 14 39 (ligne directe)
Re: [DISCUSS] IDE, comment translation, debugging, documentation and other development issues
On 10/31/12 12:14 AM, Ariel Constenla-Haile wrote: Hi Damjan, On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 07:44:06PM +0200, Damjan Jovanovic wrote: Hi AOO is by far the biggest and most complex code I have ever hacked on, and I have many questions... true, but you managed to get your first patch out of it! Congratulations :) nothing to add here, welcome on board What IDE do you guys use to develop AOO? Eclipse CDT runs out of memory indexing the code :-(. I guess you cannot index the whole source tree with an IDE. It may work to just index the modules you are working with, no need to add all the dependencies, if a module depends on trunk/main/foo, simply add to the parser path trunk/main/foo/inc, and for the offapi/offuh header, you can point the parser to an SDK installation, or even point it to the solver include dir (but this might be too consuming). I used this approach with some IDEs and worked. emacs ;-) Many comments are in German. Are translations to English welcome or should we leave them as is? Of course they are welcome. Better if done by a native speaker or someone in the know (not google translate). Debugging is such a pain. Why do binaries get stripped when the tar.gz is built even though debugging has been enabled (build debug=true dbglevel=2 --all)? they are striped when delivered to the solver. You have to configure with --disable-strip-solver. I'm not sure a dbglevel=2 is good for all the modules, you will get too much debug output may be missing what you want to catch. An interesting switch when developing is --enable-dbgutil that build a NON-PRO build http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Non_Product_Build the best tool for debugging is of course MS Visual Studio. I used XCode as well but we have first to do some work to enable XCode4. gdb in emacs works as well but is not so comfortable like the MS Visual Studio. I never have tried other gdb frontends. Juergen The layout of the source code tree is incredibly complex, with eg. confusing duplication of CSV parsing between binfilter/ and sc/. binfilter is dead code, soon to be removed when trunk is in AOO4 there somewhere I should document the structure of various modules? http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Source_code_directories seems like a good place to start but I would add a lot more detail. Searching with grep takes forever. I've tried indexing the source tree with Lucene, but it doesn't find everything. Is there a better tool? Use opengrok from adfinis http://opengrok.adfinis-sygroup.org Regards
Re: [PROPOSAL] Initiate a Contest for Branding of 4.0
On 30 October 2012 22:13, Nóirín Plunkett noi...@apache.org wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 1:36 AM, Graham Lauder g.a.lau...@gmail.com wrote: The launch of 4.0 is a unique opportunity in the life of AOO both now and far into the future. Perhaps sound out some sponsors for a prize The Fedora Design Bounties have done really well using this model, where the prize is to become a member of the Fedora design team. They've had several successful projects completed, and by making inclusion the prize, they've gotten new contributors to stick around too. See http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/06/03/fedora-design-bounty-f13-feature-profiles/ for an example of one. Noirin Thanks for this Noirin, we should build on things we know have been successful in other similar fields. I have made a start with some titles on the wiki. I have a report I have to get in by the end of this week so not much immediate time but hopefully a few headings will encourage some further editing. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.
Re: [RELEASE] Releasing new languages for 3.4.1
On 10/30/12 4:22 PM, jan iversen wrote: Question: Is there a rule in the apache way defining who can do QA, or is it totally up to the single teams ? It's up to the teams I think Do we use the review statistic in pootle to anything, it seems actually quite clever. we don't make use of it right now and I have to confess that I haven't really looked in it yet because of the lack of time. Juergen Jan. On 30 October 2012 16:17, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/30/12 2:46 PM, Rob Weir wrote: On Oct 30, 2012, at 9:03 AM, RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/10/30 Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com On 10/27/12 3:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 9:55 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Oct 26, 2012, at 12:07 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: ... it would probably allow to skip the release process and voting, since we would merely be adding 3-5 binary artifacts (built for different platforms). It is an interesting question if we should only vote for source releases. Certainly these are the only official release. I think that the practice is to vote for binary packages as well. Clearly those have a different bar. It is worth discussing, but I am inclined to think that we do need to VOTE on these packages, but in this case we are voting at a certain level of trust for the packager and translations. But the point is we need to release the source that the binaries depend on, where that source is from this project. It would be one thing if we were just releasing a new platform port of existing source packages. But we're not. We're talking about new translations resources, where such resources are in SVN and are required as part of the build process in order to build the localized binaries. No downstream consumer of the source will be able to build these localizations without having access to the translated resources. Therefore these resources should be reviewed, voted on and released. Remember, the translations are non-trivial creative works, translations of not only UI strings, but larger text passages from the help files. They are under copyright and made available under license. So we need to do our due diligence via the release process before we distribute such materials. Should say, before we distribute such materials in source OR source and binary form. The issues are the same. Remember, the source package is canonical. I'm surprised to hear talk now of releasing only binaries. I am still not sure how we can address this but I would really like to make new translations available as soon as possible. What about the idea to prepare official developer language packs based on the AOO34 branch and where the new translations are already checked in? If we decided later to release a 3.4.2 because of other critical security or general bugfixes the new translations becomes included automatically. The new language packs will have the same version number 3.4.1 but are not officially released and are available via the snapshot page. When we reach a state where we have release build bots, we can probably trigger much easier a complete respin with the same product version but based on a new revision number including the new translations. Juergen +1. I like the idea. We can put on the download page a link to additional untested language packs and add these language packs are being prepared for the next AOO version, but you can use them right now or something like that. Even beta releases are still releases from the Apache perspective and still require that we go through a release vote. Why are we trying so hard to avoid this process? It isn't that hard. And it is important that we follow the procedures before putting the Apache label on software we make available to the public. I don't see that we try to avoid this process. But with with a certain level of QA we have to test the new language builds anyway. Means in detail we can start with the snapshot builds and can test it. If we get no complains we can create a new src release (a respin if possible) where the new translations are included. And we upload only the new src release and the new language packs. I would be also fine with uploading full install sets but this is matter of taste and space. Juergen -Rob Regards Ricardo -Rob -Rob Regards, Dave
Re: Apache Asia Roadshow 2012 - Dec 13th Beijing
Peter, Please see my comments below: 2012/10/31 Peter Junge peter.ju...@gmx.org Hi Simon, On 10/30/2012 11:25 PM, Shenfeng Liu wrote: Peter, Please see my comments below: 2012/10/29 Peter Junge peter.ju...@gmx.org Hi Simon, On 10/26/2012 9:48 PM, Shenfeng Liu wrote: Don Peter, I think it is a very good opportunity to promote Apache OpenOffice in China marketing through Apache Asia Roadshow 2012. And from another side, the wide influence of OpenOffice can also help to promote Apache. I'd like to work with Peter together on it. The target can be not only attract individual volunteers to participate the community, but also demonstrate the business opportunities and attract local business partners. While first of all, I'd like to know more details about this event. Perhaps Jimmy is the right contact? Agree with you! Per check with Jimmy, we need to give a outline draft now. I will work on it in the evening, when I'm home from work. Do you know --e.g. from Jimmy-- if the outline needs to meet certain requirements? Per my check with Jimmy, for now there is no certain requirements since it is at a very early stage. We can just list the proposed topics/agenda, with speakers and time needed. For now, we should prepare for an 1 hour session, and when the overall Roadshow agenda finalized, we will know if we can get more time... So maybe 20 minutes for each of the 3 topics below? Not able to touch too much details, just brief message for promotion... - Shenfeng Liu (Simon) indeed, let's put together such a session for the Roadshow. A possible brief outline would be: - Introduction to and history of OpenOffice +1, history and latest status. - I think you are the best one in Beijing to present this topic. So I wonder if you can prepare for an outline? Yes. - What's happening around AOO in Beijing respectively China. Engineers of IBM and of CS2C could share what they are working on. +1 again. The UOF contribution, fidelity improvement, quality improvement efforts... I can check with Ji Yan, WeiKe or Liu Tao to see if we can work together on it. That would be great. - How businesses and users can benefit from AOO, ways to join the AOO community. I think firstly CS2C can share their experience on building the business on AOO. Secondly, since the theme of this Roadshow is cloud, we can share the topic of Social Integration with AOO. I will work with Da Li to prepare for the outline. Sounds excellent. How much time we can spend on the parts would depend on how much time we would get in total. I'm still checking with Jimmy for how much time can we get. But basically I think we can start and propose the topics above. The amount of time we have would be great to know. Any suggestion? Not yet, maybe later, e.g. after drafting that outline. Peter - Shenfeng Liu (Simon) BTW, I just took a small surgery yesterday, and in the following week I have to spend most of the daytime in hospital for subsequent treatment. So my response to the mail threads may be slow. But I will try to catch up on this topic. Get well soon! Best regards, peter - Shenfeng Liu (Simon) 2012/10/26 Peter Junge peter.ju...@gmx.org Hi Don, thanks for the notice. Unfortunately, the Apache Asia Roadshow 2012 seem to lack of promoting the event. I only heard about it by coincidence a couple of days ago. (more inline) On 10/25/2012 9:47 PM, Donald Harbison wrote: On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 6:28 AM, Justin Erenkrantz jus...@erenkrantz.com wrote: [...] we plan the main topic around cloud computing: open source really produce a basement to the cloud computing, like Apache Hadoop and cloudstack; welcome any open source topic in or out of this area. The Apache OpenOffice community has a significant local representation in Beijing. I'm cc'ing the community to alert our Chinese contributors to reach out to you and explore the possibility of adding an Apache OpenOffice session to increase its visibility. We just graduated to an Apache TLP, so we have a solid foundation upon which to build with a strong global community. The Chinese community is very important and making a large contribution. As I seem to be the only one in Beijing who's with OpenOffice from the beginning, I'd like to offer a talk about the history of OOo, if that is of interest. As the 13th is a weekday, I just have to find out if I can take a day off my daily job. @concom: I cannot find anything about the Apache Asia Roadshow 2012 at http://wiki.apache.org/**apachecon/http://wiki.apache.org/apachecon/ http://wiki.apache.**org/**apachecon/http://wiki.apache.org/**apachecon/ http://wiki.apache.org/apachecon/http://wiki.apache.org/**apachecon/ http://wiki.apache.org/**apachecon/http://wiki.apache.org/apachecon/ Do you have a
Re: [RELEASE] Releasing new languages for 3.4.1
I do not understand the release discussion assuming juergen is right. why don't we ask each team to send a mail confirming they have made QA then we would release the language packs officially (at least this time) this would also give us time to discuss the ideal situation. juergen: you will (hopefully) soon get an extra pair of hands to help! Den 31/10/2012 11.10 skrev Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com: On 10/30/12 4:22 PM, jan iversen wrote: Question: Is there a rule in the apache way defining who can do QA, or is it totally up to the single teams ? It's up to the teams I think Do we use the review statistic in pootle to anything, it seems actually quite clever. we don't make use of it right now and I have to confess that I haven't really looked in it yet because of the lack of time. Juergen Jan. On 30 October 2012 16:17, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/30/12 2:46 PM, Rob Weir wrote: On Oct 30, 2012, at 9:03 AM, RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/10/30 Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com On 10/27/12 3:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 9:55 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Oct 26, 2012, at 12:07 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: ... it would probably allow to skip the release process and voting, since we would merely be adding 3-5 binary artifacts (built for different platforms). It is an interesting question if we should only vote for source releases. Certainly these are the only official release. I think that the practice is to vote for binary packages as well. Clearly those have a different bar. It is worth discussing, but I am inclined to think that we do need to VOTE on these packages, but in this case we are voting at a certain level of trust for the packager and translations. But the point is we need to release the source that the binaries depend on, where that source is from this project. It would be one thing if we were just releasing a new platform port of existing source packages. But we're not. We're talking about new translations resources, where such resources are in SVN and are required as part of the build process in order to build the localized binaries. No downstream consumer of the source will be able to build these localizations without having access to the translated resources. Therefore these resources should be reviewed, voted on and released. Remember, the translations are non-trivial creative works, translations of not only UI strings, but larger text passages from the help files. They are under copyright and made available under license. So we need to do our due diligence via the release process before we distribute such materials. Should say, before we distribute such materials in source OR source and binary form. The issues are the same. Remember, the source package is canonical. I'm surprised to hear talk now of releasing only binaries. I am still not sure how we can address this but I would really like to make new translations available as soon as possible. What about the idea to prepare official developer language packs based on the AOO34 branch and where the new translations are already checked in? If we decided later to release a 3.4.2 because of other critical security or general bugfixes the new translations becomes included automatically. The new language packs will have the same version number 3.4.1 but are not officially released and are available via the snapshot page. When we reach a state where we have release build bots, we can probably trigger much easier a complete respin with the same product version but based on a new revision number including the new translations. Juergen +1. I like the idea. We can put on the download page a link to additional untested language packs and add these language packs are being prepared for the next AOO version, but you can use them right now or something like that. Even beta releases are still releases from the Apache perspective and still require that we go through a release vote. Why are we trying so hard to avoid this process? It isn't that hard. And it is important that we follow the procedures before putting the Apache label on software we make available to the public. I don't see that we try to avoid this process. But with with a certain level of QA we have to test the new language builds anyway. Means in detail we can start with the snapshot builds and can test it. If we get no complains we can create a new src release (a respin if possible) where the new translations are included. And we upload only the new src release and the new language packs. I would be also fine with uploading full install sets but this is matter of taste and space. Juergen
Looking for guide to debug with MS Visual Studio Express
Hi all, I read that debugging with MS Visual Studio works well. Is there somewhere a guide for dummies how to do it? Kind regards Regina
Re: Looking for guide to debug with MS Visual Studio Express
Hi, On 31.10.2012 12:35, Regina Henschel wrote: Hi all, I read that debugging with MS Visual Studio works well. Is there somewhere a guide for dummies how to do it? The following steps should give you a start: - Have your AOO build installed on the system. - Build the module of interest with debug information - Copy the resulting DLLs and PDB files of the module into the corresponding directory of the installation. -- for gbuild modules like sw you find the DLLs and PDB files in /main/solver/350/wntmsci12/workdir/LinkTarget/Library/ -- for dmake modules like sd you find the DLLs and PDB files in /main/[module]/wntmsci12/bin/ - Start your installed AOO build - Start MS Visual Studio - Via Menu Debug - Attach to process you need to attach process soffice.bin to the debugger. - Now, you can open a source file of your module of interest in order to debug the code of interest by inserting a breakpoint. - You can also investigate a crash as the debugger will take over in case that a crash occurs in AOO. - You have the possibility to stop the execution of AOO - Toolbar function Break All - and investigate the call stacks of the stopped threads of AOO. Continuation or single command stepping is also possible Just play around with the different debugger tools. Hope that give you a first start. Best regards, Oliver.
Re: [Call-for-Review][Basic] Bug 76852: incorrect conversions Single to String and Double to String
Hi, On 30.10.2012 20:13, Damjan Jovanovic wrote: Hi all Can you please help review my patch (https://issues.apache.org/ooo/attachment.cgi?id=79839action=diff) to bug 76852 (https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=76852)? A detailed analysis of the problem and explanation of the solution is given in https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=76852#c11 Thanks for the patch and the detailed analysis. I am volunteering to have a look at your contribution. Best regards, Oliver.
Re: Looking for guide to debug with MS Visual Studio Express
Hi, I have some doubts, that Visual Studio Express will work. The debugger of VS Express is limited severly in comparison to VS Professional. I have also just looked it up and Remote Debugging doesn't work in VS Express. That's what I would have used. So if you can, get a copy of VS Professional. Otherwise I believe, that you're out of luck. Greetings eymux On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Regina Henschel rb.hensc...@t-online.de wrote: Hi all, I read that debugging with MS Visual Studio works well. Is there somewhere a guide for dummies how to do it? Kind regards Regina
Re: Looking for guide to debug with MS Visual Studio Express
On 10/31/12 12:59 PM, Andor E wrote: Hi, I have some doubts, that Visual Studio Express will work. The debugger of VS Express is limited severly in comparison to VS Professional. I have also just looked it up and Remote Debugging doesn't work in VS Express. That's what I would have used. So if you can, get a copy of VS Professional. Otherwise I believe, that you're out of luck. The professional might works better but the express version works as well. @Regina, just try it Juergen Greetings eymux On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Regina Henschel rb.hensc...@t-online.de wrote: Hi all, I read that debugging with MS Visual Studio works well. Is there somewhere a guide for dummies how to do it? Kind regards Regina
Re: [RELEASE] Releasing new languages for 3.4.1
On 10/31/12 12:18 PM, jan iversen wrote: I do not understand the release discussion assuming juergen is right. or I have misunderstand your question ;-) I think we as AOO can define how we do QQ and how we want to ensure the quality of our releases. Besides the functional aspects here we have to follow some Apache rules how releases have to be made. Juergen why don't we ask each team to send a mail confirming they have made QA then we would release the language packs officially (at least this time) this would also give us time to discuss the ideal situation. juergen: you will (hopefully) soon get an extra pair of hands to help! Den 31/10/2012 11.10 skrev Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com: On 10/30/12 4:22 PM, jan iversen wrote: Question: Is there a rule in the apache way defining who can do QA, or is it totally up to the single teams ? It's up to the teams I think Do we use the review statistic in pootle to anything, it seems actually quite clever. we don't make use of it right now and I have to confess that I haven't really looked in it yet because of the lack of time. Juergen Jan. On 30 October 2012 16:17, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/30/12 2:46 PM, Rob Weir wrote: On Oct 30, 2012, at 9:03 AM, RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/10/30 Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com On 10/27/12 3:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 9:55 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Oct 26, 2012, at 12:07 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: ... it would probably allow to skip the release process and voting, since we would merely be adding 3-5 binary artifacts (built for different platforms). It is an interesting question if we should only vote for source releases. Certainly these are the only official release. I think that the practice is to vote for binary packages as well. Clearly those have a different bar. It is worth discussing, but I am inclined to think that we do need to VOTE on these packages, but in this case we are voting at a certain level of trust for the packager and translations. But the point is we need to release the source that the binaries depend on, where that source is from this project. It would be one thing if we were just releasing a new platform port of existing source packages. But we're not. We're talking about new translations resources, where such resources are in SVN and are required as part of the build process in order to build the localized binaries. No downstream consumer of the source will be able to build these localizations without having access to the translated resources. Therefore these resources should be reviewed, voted on and released. Remember, the translations are non-trivial creative works, translations of not only UI strings, but larger text passages from the help files. They are under copyright and made available under license. So we need to do our due diligence via the release process before we distribute such materials. Should say, before we distribute such materials in source OR source and binary form. The issues are the same. Remember, the source package is canonical. I'm surprised to hear talk now of releasing only binaries. I am still not sure how we can address this but I would really like to make new translations available as soon as possible. What about the idea to prepare official developer language packs based on the AOO34 branch and where the new translations are already checked in? If we decided later to release a 3.4.2 because of other critical security or general bugfixes the new translations becomes included automatically. The new language packs will have the same version number 3.4.1 but are not officially released and are available via the snapshot page. When we reach a state where we have release build bots, we can probably trigger much easier a complete respin with the same product version but based on a new revision number including the new translations. Juergen +1. I like the idea. We can put on the download page a link to additional untested language packs and add these language packs are being prepared for the next AOO version, but you can use them right now or something like that. Even beta releases are still releases from the Apache perspective and still require that we go through a release vote. Why are we trying so hard to avoid this process? It isn't that hard. And it is important that we follow the procedures before putting the Apache label on software we make available to the public. I don't see that we try to avoid this process. But with with a certain level of QA we have to test the new language builds anyway. Means in detail we can start with the snapshot builds and can test it. If we get no complains we can create a new src release (a respin if possible) where the new translations
Re: [RELEASE] Releasing new languages for 3.4.1
Ok, I thought team meant language teams. But I have searched the Wiki and cannot find any documentation on the required QA procedure relating to national languages. Can it be, that it was never really defined and written down ?? For code, there seems to be guidelines, but also no real definition of how much test need to be done (it is pretty well defined what happens when QA finds a problem in a release candidate). For the future, not for the set of languages, it would be a good idea to have a clear definition of - which QA gates has to be passed - who (roles) defines if a gate if full filled (national team, someone else?) Jan. On 31 October 2012 14:42, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/31/12 12:18 PM, jan iversen wrote: I do not understand the release discussion assuming juergen is right. or I have misunderstand your question ;-) I think we as AOO can define how we do QQ and how we want to ensure the quality of our releases. Besides the functional aspects here we have to follow some Apache rules how releases have to be made. Juergen why don't we ask each team to send a mail confirming they have made QA then we would release the language packs officially (at least this time) this would also give us time to discuss the ideal situation. juergen: you will (hopefully) soon get an extra pair of hands to help! Den 31/10/2012 11.10 skrev Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com: On 10/30/12 4:22 PM, jan iversen wrote: Question: Is there a rule in the apache way defining who can do QA, or is it totally up to the single teams ? It's up to the teams I think Do we use the review statistic in pootle to anything, it seems actually quite clever. we don't make use of it right now and I have to confess that I haven't really looked in it yet because of the lack of time. Juergen Jan. On 30 October 2012 16:17, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/30/12 2:46 PM, Rob Weir wrote: On Oct 30, 2012, at 9:03 AM, RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/10/30 Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com On 10/27/12 3:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 9:55 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Oct 26, 2012, at 12:07 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: ... it would probably allow to skip the release process and voting, since we would merely be adding 3-5 binary artifacts (built for different platforms). It is an interesting question if we should only vote for source releases. Certainly these are the only official release. I think that the practice is to vote for binary packages as well. Clearly those have a different bar. It is worth discussing, but I am inclined to think that we do need to VOTE on these packages, but in this case we are voting at a certain level of trust for the packager and translations. But the point is we need to release the source that the binaries depend on, where that source is from this project. It would be one thing if we were just releasing a new platform port of existing source packages. But we're not. We're talking about new translations resources, where such resources are in SVN and are required as part of the build process in order to build the localized binaries. No downstream consumer of the source will be able to build these localizations without having access to the translated resources. Therefore these resources should be reviewed, voted on and released. Remember, the translations are non-trivial creative works, translations of not only UI strings, but larger text passages from the help files. They are under copyright and made available under license. So we need to do our due diligence via the release process before we distribute such materials. Should say, before we distribute such materials in source OR source and binary form. The issues are the same. Remember, the source package is canonical. I'm surprised to hear talk now of releasing only binaries. I am still not sure how we can address this but I would really like to make new translations available as soon as possible. What about the idea to prepare official developer language packs based on the AOO34 branch and where the new translations are already checked in? If we decided later to release a 3.4.2 because of other critical security or general bugfixes the new translations becomes included automatically. The new language packs will have the same version number 3.4.1 but are not officially released and are available via the snapshot page. When we reach a state where we have release build bots, we can probably trigger much easier a complete respin with the same product version but based on a new revision number including the new translations. Juergen +1. I like the
Re: Apache Asia Roadshow 2012 - Dec 13th Beijing
@All: Given the fact that we're constantly cross-posting: is there any preference to limit the discussion to one of the list or shall we continue like that? Hi Simon, comments below: On 10/31/2012 7:16 PM, Shenfeng Liu wrote: Peter, Please see my comments below: 2012/10/31 Peter Junge peter.ju...@gmx.org mailto:peter.ju...@gmx.org Hi Simon, On 10/30/2012 11:25 PM, Shenfeng Liu wrote: Peter, Please see my comments below: 2012/10/29 Peter Junge peter.ju...@gmx.org mailto:peter.ju...@gmx.org Hi Simon, On 10/26/2012 9:48 PM, Shenfeng Liu wrote: Don Peter, I think it is a very good opportunity to promote Apache OpenOffice in China marketing through Apache Asia Roadshow 2012. And from another side, the wide influence of OpenOffice can also help to promote Apache. I'd like to work with Peter together on it. The target can be not only attract individual volunteers to participate the community, but also demonstrate the business opportunities and attract local business partners. While first of all, I'd like to know more details about this event. Perhaps Jimmy is the right contact? Agree with you! Per check with Jimmy, we need to give a outline draft now. I will work on it in the evening, when I'm home from work. Do you know --e.g. from Jimmy-- if the outline needs to meet certain requirements? Per my check with Jimmy, for now there is no certain requirements since it is at a very early stage. We can just list the proposed topics/agenda, with speakers and time needed. For now, we should prepare for an 1 hour session, and when the overall Roadshow agenda finalized, we will know if we can get more time... So maybe 20 minutes for each of the 3 topics below? Not able to touch too much details, just brief message for promotion... I have changed the times a bit, coming up with an asymmetric proposal, e.g. I think I can do my part in 15 minutes hence others have more time. So, here's my outline for my talk but also a proposal for the whole session: - Apache OpenOffice session at the Apache Asia Roadshow 2012 == The below outline was drafted under the assumption that this seesion may take up to 60 minutes (more time is always welcome). 1. Part: The history and status quo of OpenOffice - Speaker: Peter Junge Time: 15 Minutes Brief outline: + History before Apache ++ From StarOffice to OpenOffice.org to Apache OpenOffice + OpenOffice at Apache ++ New Challeges, e.g. License and different community vision ++ Organizational status quo of the project, promotion from incubator to TLP 2. Part: What's happening around AOO in Beijing --- Speakers: Staff from IBM and CS2C give short talks about their projects Time: 25 minutes (NOTE: I see two ways to fill this part, either one senior of both IBM and CS2C gives a summary or 4 Lightning talks. Assuming that the audience we can expect is not too used to lightning talks, I would propose the former.) Possible Topics: + UOF support in AOO + Fidelity improvements + Quality improvements + OpenOffice business in China + add more here 3. Part: Apache OpenOffice and the cloud Speakers: Liu Shenfeng (aka Simon) and Da Li (maybe CS2C can also contribute) Time: 20 minutes Possible topics: + Social Integration with AOO + add more here - Best regards, Peter - Shenfeng Liu (Simon) indeed, let's put together such a session for the Roadshow. A possible brief outline would be: - Introduction to and history of OpenOffice +1, history and latest status. - I think you are the best one in Beijing to present this topic. So I wonder if you can prepare for an outline? Yes. - What's happening around AOO in Beijing respectively China. Engineers of IBM and of CS2C could share what they are working on. +1 again. The UOF contribution, fidelity improvement, quality improvement efforts... I can check with Ji Yan, WeiKe or Liu Tao to see if we can work together on it. That would be great. - How businesses and users can benefit from AOO, ways to join the AOO community. I think firstly CS2C can share their experience on building the business on AOO. Secondly, since the theme of this Roadshow is
Re: Looking for guide to debug with MS Visual Studio Express
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/31/12 12:59 PM, Andor E wrote: Hi, I have some doubts, that Visual Studio Express will work. The debugger of VS Express is limited severly in comparison to VS Professional. I have also just looked it up and Remote Debugging doesn't work in VS Express. That's what I would have used. So if you can, get a copy of VS Professional. Otherwise I believe, that you're out of luck. The professional might works better but the express version works as well. @Regina, just try it And remember that Microsoft at one point was offering free MSDN subscriptions to Apache Committers. That would be a good way to get access to the full debugging features. -Rob Juergen Greetings eymux On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Regina Henschel rb.hensc...@t-online.de wrote: Hi all, I read that debugging with MS Visual Studio works well. Is there somewhere a guide for dummies how to do it? Kind regards Regina
Re: [DISCUSS] IDE, comment translation, debugging, documentation and other development issues
Hi Damjan; From: Damjan Jovanovic ... Hi AOO is by far the biggest and most complex code I have ever hacked on, and I have many questions... It is indeed big and hairy. I have only done rather simple tasks like updating modules. Searching with grep takes forever. I've tried indexing the source tree with Lucene, but it doesn't find everything. Is there a better tool? OpenGrok helps a lot. Another good way of walking through the code and finding errors is with Coverity scans. Apache committers have access to it just by asking, or even less as you are about to notice ;-). cheers, Pedro.
Re: AOO volunteers: essential skills and tasks
On 10/28/2012 04:30 PM, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote: On 23/10/2012 Rob Weir wrote: New Volunteer Orientation root page: http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/orientation/ This is an excellent resource. But we received a few requests from prospective volunteers this weekend and I'm believing it would be overwhelming to point them there. I still believe these documents are excellent, but probably they are assuming our volunteer is above average, or at least willing to engage deeply with the project. They would be perfect for me, for you, or for a newcomer like Jan who has the skills and the mindset to understand in detail how things work. And how do we know in advance which volunteers are like Jan and which are not? I think we should find some way to point them to the info and say that they are welcome to jump in and ignore this all, or skim it in parallel with direct participation, or read through this stuff first. It is entirely up to them. But generally, the more one needs to interact with other project participants and other systems and even other parts of Apache, the more this information becomes useful. Although not stated, one could almost say that Level 4 would be becoming a Committer. So you are correct that this is a track for a more determined volunteer, But we will also have (and we do have: most volunteers I see on the mailing lists in Italian fall in this category) volunteers who don't care that much about OpenOffice as a project: they use the product and just want to give something back. They want to scratch an itch, or just to do something, but they are very task-oriented: they want something to do rather than something to read. For example, we may have translation volunteers who would be perfectly satisfied if we e-mail them a PO file and tell them to grab POEdit and send the file back; and then they would consider a deeper engagement, but not earlier. Translation volunteers are different in many ways, but even there I think we need some solid orientation material. They won't go far before wondering why they cannot write to Pootle and the website, but others can. That leads us into discussion of roles at Apache, etc. And we really need to expose them to the Apache License at the earliest opportunity. We do no one any favors if we're passing around PO files via private mail, and receiving translations without any public record of contribution. In any case, this is an issue we've had for a while. Becoming a Committer is a higher hurdle than is appropriate for most translation volunteers, due to iCLA, etc. The orientation guides did not create this problem, they merely remind us of it. And indeed they are not totally wrong: knowing how the Apache Board works is not needed to be able to translate a press release, or a few OpenOffice strings, into Italian. Could it be that we need a practical entry point for people who want to help and just want to do it immediately? Placing these information at level 3 of the Volunteer Orientation seems too much for volunteers who want to jump in and do something (while, again, the orientation guide is excellent for a skilled, determined volunteer). Since level 3 for translators does not exist yet, it may be too early to say whether or not is practical. (I hope it will be practical). If we make it self-contained, it may be possible for it be consulted on its own for someone who is not seeking deeper engagement with the project. -Rob Regards, Andrea. Rob, I still support this whole notion. But, maybe it would be better to go with more of a checklist style instead of the in-depth explanations you have in this document. What if you ported this to the wiki (Jan suggested this as well. cwiki is easiest for me but I have no object to wiki.openoffice.org) so those of us that are interested can more easily contribute to this worthwhile guide. Thanks for starting this. It is needed. -- MzK Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat. -- Robert Heinlein
Re: old business...old OpenOffice domain names registered by Oracle (primarily)
On 10/30/2012 04:14 PM, Andrew Rist wrote: On 10/30/2012 1:39 PM, Kay Schenk wrote: Looking at old threads, I'm a bit confused about the outcome of this one: http://markmail.org/message/ldigtivvyy2su62u Currently some of the .com domains don't even show up on the DNS radar, and on the others remaining registered by Oracle. Was it the outcome of this discussion to have Oracle transfer the registrations to the ASF? I thought that was perhaps what we wanted to do, but ti doesn't seem to have happened yet. Andrew, can you shed some light? Thanks. https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4906 I guess it's not been on the top of any of our lists. The domains were opened up for transfer on the Oracle side (not sure if that times out). Andrew Thanks for the update. I'm not sure what this means though. :/ Oracle didn't renew them and now these domains are up for grabs? -- MzK Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat. -- Robert Heinlein
Re: AOO volunteers: essential skills and tasks
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/28/2012 04:30 PM, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote: On 23/10/2012 Rob Weir wrote: New Volunteer Orientation root page: http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/orientation/ This is an excellent resource. But we received a few requests from prospective volunteers this weekend and I'm believing it would be overwhelming to point them there. I still believe these documents are excellent, but probably they are assuming our volunteer is above average, or at least willing to engage deeply with the project. They would be perfect for me, for you, or for a newcomer like Jan who has the skills and the mindset to understand in detail how things work. And how do we know in advance which volunteers are like Jan and which are not? I think we should find some way to point them to the info and say that they are welcome to jump in and ignore this all, or skim it in parallel with direct participation, or read through this stuff first. It is entirely up to them. But generally, the more one needs to interact with other project participants and other systems and even other parts of Apache, the more this information becomes useful. Although not stated, one could almost say that Level 4 would be becoming a Committer. So you are correct that this is a track for a more determined volunteer, But we will also have (and we do have: most volunteers I see on the mailing lists in Italian fall in this category) volunteers who don't care that much about OpenOffice as a project: they use the product and just want to give something back. They want to scratch an itch, or just to do something, but they are very task-oriented: they want something to do rather than something to read. For example, we may have translation volunteers who would be perfectly satisfied if we e-mail them a PO file and tell them to grab POEdit and send the file back; and then they would consider a deeper engagement, but not earlier. Translation volunteers are different in many ways, but even there I think we need some solid orientation material. They won't go far before wondering why they cannot write to Pootle and the website, but others can. That leads us into discussion of roles at Apache, etc. And we really need to expose them to the Apache License at the earliest opportunity. We do no one any favors if we're passing around PO files via private mail, and receiving translations without any public record of contribution. In any case, this is an issue we've had for a while. Becoming a Committer is a higher hurdle than is appropriate for most translation volunteers, due to iCLA, etc. The orientation guides did not create this problem, they merely remind us of it. And indeed they are not totally wrong: knowing how the Apache Board works is not needed to be able to translate a press release, or a few OpenOffice strings, into Italian. Could it be that we need a practical entry point for people who want to help and just want to do it immediately? Placing these information at level 3 of the Volunteer Orientation seems too much for volunteers who want to jump in and do something (while, again, the orientation guide is excellent for a skilled, determined volunteer). Since level 3 for translators does not exist yet, it may be too early to say whether or not is practical. (I hope it will be practical). If we make it self-contained, it may be possible for it be consulted on its own for someone who is not seeking deeper engagement with the project. -Rob Regards, Andrea. Rob, I still support this whole notion. But, maybe it would be better to go with more of a checklist style instead of the in-depth explanations you have in this document. What if you ported this to the wiki (Jan suggested this as well. cwiki is easiest for me but I have no object to wiki.openoffice.org) so those of us that are interested can more easily contribute to this worthwhile guide. Of course you are free to start whatever wiki page you wish. But I'll be continuing with the mdtext pages I've started. This is based on my experience with providing orientation to many of our Symphony developers on how Apache projects work and how to participate in such a community. This approach works. Other approaches might work for others as well. But I'm going to give this a try. -Rob Thanks for starting this. It is needed. -- MzK Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat. -- Robert Heinlein
Re: AOO volunteers: essential skills and tasks
Hi. I think your md pages are SUPERwhat I suggested was an additional wiki page (actually someone else called it postoffice) where we put small tasks that need to be translated / written etc. So I see your pages go hand in hand with Wiki pages, just too different levels of interaction with the community. jan On 31 October 2012 16:59, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/28/2012 04:30 PM, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote: On 23/10/2012 Rob Weir wrote: New Volunteer Orientation root page: http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/orientation/ This is an excellent resource. But we received a few requests from prospective volunteers this weekend and I'm believing it would be overwhelming to point them there. I still believe these documents are excellent, but probably they are assuming our volunteer is above average, or at least willing to engage deeply with the project. They would be perfect for me, for you, or for a newcomer like Jan who has the skills and the mindset to understand in detail how things work. And how do we know in advance which volunteers are like Jan and which are not? I think we should find some way to point them to the info and say that they are welcome to jump in and ignore this all, or skim it in parallel with direct participation, or read through this stuff first. It is entirely up to them. But generally, the more one needs to interact with other project participants and other systems and even other parts of Apache, the more this information becomes useful. Although not stated, one could almost say that Level 4 would be becoming a Committer. So you are correct that this is a track for a more determined volunteer, But we will also have (and we do have: most volunteers I see on the mailing lists in Italian fall in this category) volunteers who don't care that much about OpenOffice as a project: they use the product and just want to give something back. They want to scratch an itch, or just to do something, but they are very task-oriented: they want something to do rather than something to read. For example, we may have translation volunteers who would be perfectly satisfied if we e-mail them a PO file and tell them to grab POEdit and send the file back; and then they would consider a deeper engagement, but not earlier. Translation volunteers are different in many ways, but even there I think we need some solid orientation material. They won't go far before wondering why they cannot write to Pootle and the website, but others can. That leads us into discussion of roles at Apache, etc. And we really need to expose them to the Apache License at the earliest opportunity. We do no one any favors if we're passing around PO files via private mail, and receiving translations without any public record of contribution. In any case, this is an issue we've had for a while. Becoming a Committer is a higher hurdle than is appropriate for most translation volunteers, due to iCLA, etc. The orientation guides did not create this problem, they merely remind us of it. And indeed they are not totally wrong: knowing how the Apache Board works is not needed to be able to translate a press release, or a few OpenOffice strings, into Italian. Could it be that we need a practical entry point for people who want to help and just want to do it immediately? Placing these information at level 3 of the Volunteer Orientation seems too much for volunteers who want to jump in and do something (while, again, the orientation guide is excellent for a skilled, determined volunteer). Since level 3 for translators does not exist yet, it may be too early to say whether or not is practical. (I hope it will be practical). If we make it self-contained, it may be possible for it be consulted on its own for someone who is not seeking deeper engagement with the project. -Rob Regards, Andrea. Rob, I still support this whole notion. But, maybe it would be better to go with more of a checklist style instead of the in-depth explanations you have in this document. What if you ported this to the wiki (Jan suggested this as well. cwiki is easiest for me but I have no object to wiki.openoffice.org) so those of us that are interested can more easily contribute to this worthwhile guide. Of course you are free to start whatever wiki page you wish. But I'll be continuing with the mdtext pages I've started. This is based on my experience with providing orientation to many of our Symphony developers on how Apache projects work and how to participate in such a community. This approach works. Other approaches might work for others as well. But I'm going to
Re: AOO volunteers: essential skills and tasks
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:46 PM, jan iversen jancasacon...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I think your md pages are SUPERwhat I suggested was an additional wiki page (actually someone else called it postoffice) where we put small tasks that need to be translated / written etc. So I see your pages go hand in hand with Wiki pages, just too different levels of interaction with the community. Right. So maybe when we do a wider call for volunteers we can offer three tracks: 1) Sign up for ooo-dev and drink from the firehose (our only current option) 2) A short intro on the wiki, one that doesn't exist yet, but maybe someone can write one. 3) A longer self-paced intro on the website (what I'm working on) They are volunteers, so we can't force them to do anything. But we can offer them a few choices. I'm happy to provide one of those choices. Who wants to provide another? -Rob jan On 31 October 2012 16:59, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/28/2012 04:30 PM, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote: On 23/10/2012 Rob Weir wrote: New Volunteer Orientation root page: http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/orientation/ This is an excellent resource. But we received a few requests from prospective volunteers this weekend and I'm believing it would be overwhelming to point them there. I still believe these documents are excellent, but probably they are assuming our volunteer is above average, or at least willing to engage deeply with the project. They would be perfect for me, for you, or for a newcomer like Jan who has the skills and the mindset to understand in detail how things work. And how do we know in advance which volunteers are like Jan and which are not? I think we should find some way to point them to the info and say that they are welcome to jump in and ignore this all, or skim it in parallel with direct participation, or read through this stuff first. It is entirely up to them. But generally, the more one needs to interact with other project participants and other systems and even other parts of Apache, the more this information becomes useful. Although not stated, one could almost say that Level 4 would be becoming a Committer. So you are correct that this is a track for a more determined volunteer, But we will also have (and we do have: most volunteers I see on the mailing lists in Italian fall in this category) volunteers who don't care that much about OpenOffice as a project: they use the product and just want to give something back. They want to scratch an itch, or just to do something, but they are very task-oriented: they want something to do rather than something to read. For example, we may have translation volunteers who would be perfectly satisfied if we e-mail them a PO file and tell them to grab POEdit and send the file back; and then they would consider a deeper engagement, but not earlier. Translation volunteers are different in many ways, but even there I think we need some solid orientation material. They won't go far before wondering why they cannot write to Pootle and the website, but others can. That leads us into discussion of roles at Apache, etc. And we really need to expose them to the Apache License at the earliest opportunity. We do no one any favors if we're passing around PO files via private mail, and receiving translations without any public record of contribution. In any case, this is an issue we've had for a while. Becoming a Committer is a higher hurdle than is appropriate for most translation volunteers, due to iCLA, etc. The orientation guides did not create this problem, they merely remind us of it. And indeed they are not totally wrong: knowing how the Apache Board works is not needed to be able to translate a press release, or a few OpenOffice strings, into Italian. Could it be that we need a practical entry point for people who want to help and just want to do it immediately? Placing these information at level 3 of the Volunteer Orientation seems too much for volunteers who want to jump in and do something (while, again, the orientation guide is excellent for a skilled, determined volunteer). Since level 3 for translators does not exist yet, it may be too early to say whether or not is practical. (I hope it will be practical). If we make it self-contained, it may be possible for it be consulted on its own for someone who is not seeking deeper engagement with the project. -Rob Regards, Andrea. Rob, I still support this whole notion. But, maybe it would be better to go with more of a checklist style instead of the in-depth explanations you have in this document. What if you ported this to
Re: old business...old OpenOffice domain names registered by Oracle (primarily)
On 10/31/2012 8:54 AM, Kay Schenk wrote: On 10/30/2012 04:14 PM, Andrew Rist wrote: On 10/30/2012 1:39 PM, Kay Schenk wrote: Looking at old threads, I'm a bit confused about the outcome of this one: http://markmail.org/message/ldigtivvyy2su62u Currently some of the .com domains don't even show up on the DNS radar, and on the others remaining registered by Oracle. Was it the outcome of this discussion to have Oracle transfer the registrations to the ASF? I thought that was perhaps what we wanted to do, but ti doesn't seem to have happened yet. Andrew, can you shed some light? Thanks. https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4906 I guess it's not been on the top of any of our lists. The domains were opened up for transfer on the Oracle side (not sure if that times out). Andrew Thanks for the update. I'm not sure what this means though. :/ Oracle didn't renew them and now these domains are up for grabs? Unfortunately - that does seem to be the case. I'm not sure if that is really a problem, though. A lot of these domains were acquired as a defensive measure, and I am not sure there is currently a substantial problem with these 'similar domains'. Also, if a problem does arise, we have the trademark to protect the brand. Andrew
Re: [ApacheCon] BoF session on AOO community
On 10/30/2012 5:35 PM, Peter Junge wrote: I will not be in person in Sinsheim, hence we'll need one, better two moderators for that BoF session. The initial tasks seems quite simple. It's just saying hello to the attendees, making a short statement what the session is about, then kicking off the discussion with throwing in some key issues, e.g. collected from this discussion. After that it's a moderators job like any other. I'll raise my hand for this. Looks like the moderators will be myself and imacat. I'll collect up the topics that have been raised so far, and it looks like we can hope to have a lively and informative session. Andrew On 10/31/2012 1:06 AM, imacat wrote: It's a long list of discussion to read. There seems to be a lot to discuss in our BoF session. So, what is the help we need for our BoF session now?
Re: [ApacheCon] BoF session on AOO community
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote: On 29/10/2012 Roberto Galoppini wrote: A more diverse and sustainable project. For example, until few years ago having OOo integrated or at least able to interoperate with SAP was a distinct dream, is there any chance we can have the right SAP people to attend the AOO BoF, and discuss about this? This would be quite interesting too. I don't have any contacts, but it would be good to have SAP people there and, in general, devote a part of the session to exploring how OpenOffice can interoperate with other solutions (or what the OpenOffice community can do to allow others to be able to integrate with OpenOffice more easily), so not only the community in a strict sense but the ecosystem around it too. I have sent an email to my open source contacts at SAP, maybe other Apache members might have contacts too. Having been in the OOo migrations' business for some years, I firmly believe we should try hard to reduce the SI integration gap. Roberto Regards, Andrea. -- This e- mail message is intended only for the named recipient(s) above. It may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail and any attachment(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender by replying to this e-mail and delete the message and any attachment(s) from your system. Thank you.
Re: old business...old OpenOffice domain names registered by Oracle (primarily)
On 12-10-31, at 14:17 , Andrew Rist andrew.r...@oracle.com wrote: On 10/31/2012 8:54 AM, Kay Schenk wrote: On 10/30/2012 04:14 PM, Andrew Rist wrote: On 10/30/2012 1:39 PM, Kay Schenk wrote: Looking at old threads, I'm a bit confused about the outcome of this one: http://markmail.org/message/ldigtivvyy2su62u Currently some of the .com domains don't even show up on the DNS radar, and on the others remaining registered by Oracle. Was it the outcome of this discussion to have Oracle transfer the registrations to the ASF? I thought that was perhaps what we wanted to do, but ti doesn't seem to have happened yet. Andrew, can you shed some light? Thanks. https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4906 I guess it's not been on the top of any of our lists. The domains were opened up for transfer on the Oracle side (not sure if that times out). Andrew Thanks for the update. I'm not sure what this means though. :/ Oracle didn't renew them and now these domains are up for grabs? Unfortunately - that does seem to be the case. I'm not sure if that is really a problem, though. I don't think it is. A lot of these domains were acquired as a defensive measure, and I am not sure there is currently a substantial problem with these 'similar domains'. Quite. I was working with the legal team at Sun and then Oracle on these and a) not many of them and b) the efforts were targeted and defensive and did not really map to any aggressive outreach strategy. Actually, to say a nice thing about a certain set of companies, the efforts really were directed to shelter the most active communities. Also, if a problem does arise, we have the trademark to protect the brand. Yes, but perhaps we can start a new thread or threads that can finalize this issue and re-frame it not as a set of defensive tactics but as a strategy to promote AOO, and to use the domains as vehicles for that promotion…. Andrew -louis
Re: old business...old OpenOffice domain names registered by Oracle (primarily)
On Oct 31, 2012, at 1:05 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: On 12-10-31, at 14:17 , Andrew Rist andrew.r...@oracle.com wrote: On 10/31/2012 8:54 AM, Kay Schenk wrote: On 10/30/2012 04:14 PM, Andrew Rist wrote: On 10/30/2012 1:39 PM, Kay Schenk wrote: Looking at old threads, I'm a bit confused about the outcome of this one: http://markmail.org/message/ldigtivvyy2su62u Currently some of the .com domains don't even show up on the DNS radar, and on the others remaining registered by Oracle. Was it the outcome of this discussion to have Oracle transfer the registrations to the ASF? I thought that was perhaps what we wanted to do, but ti doesn't seem to have happened yet. Andrew, can you shed some light? Thanks. https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4906 I guess it's not been on the top of any of our lists. The domains were opened up for transfer on the Oracle side (not sure if that times out). Andrew Thanks for the update. I'm not sure what this means though. :/ Oracle didn't renew them and now these domains are up for grabs? Unfortunately - that does seem to be the case. I'm not sure if that is really a problem, though. I don't think it is. A lot of these domains were acquired as a defensive measure, and I am not sure there is currently a substantial problem with these 'similar domains'. Quite. I was working with the legal team at Sun and then Oracle on these and a) not many of them and b) the efforts were targeted and defensive and did not really map to any aggressive outreach strategy. Actually, to say a nice thing about a certain set of companies, the efforts really were directed to shelter the most active communities. I did a series of whois requests on these domains. They seems to be registered with Tucows on auto-renewal: eg: Domain ID:D159673109-LROR Domain Name:IT-OPENOFFICE.ORG Created On:16-Jul-2010 19:33:15 UTC Last Updated On:17-Jun-2012 06:09:50 UTC Expiration Date:16-Jul-2013 19:33:15 UTC Sponsoring Registrar:Tucows Inc. (R11-LROR) Also, if a problem does arise, we have the trademark to protect the brand. Yes, but perhaps we can start a new thread or threads that can finalize this issue and re-frame it not as a set of defensive tactics but as a strategy to promote AOO, and to use the domains as vehicles for that promotion…. The thread name is correct. This is old business.. Choice 1 - work to transfer domains to the ASF so that the AOO can do something with these domains. In order to take control of the DNS for each domain we need someone with Apache Infrastructure karma to work in concert with the proper person from Oracle in order to transfer all of these domain registrations. Choice 2 - ignore these domains. Let Oracle know we don't care. They can make their own choice about renewing these domains or not. Regards, Dave Andrew -louis
Re: old business...old OpenOffice domain names registered by Oracle (primarily)
On 12-10-31, at 16:24 , Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: The thread name is correct. This is old business.. Yes and no. You seem to miss my point. I'll rephrase it. Old business: cleaning up and clarifying the status of the domains associated with OpenOffice.[xy] New business: reconsidering the purpose of these and other domains for marketing purposes, with the aim of promoting not just the application per se but more importantly, as I see it, the regional communities. Louis
Re: [QA Report]Weekly Defect Analysis Report as of 2012/10/29
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 9:23 PM, Ji Yan yanji...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Rob, Sure I can update this chart in my weekly report, please let me know how to do. 1. Where should I upload the data to 2. What the numbers mean, e.g. 2012-08-01,2316,1208, does this mean in 2012 Aug, 2316 defects opened and 1208 fixed? Shenfeng Liu created the original data file. I don't know how he got the data. Maybe you can ask him. If you post an update to the list (or the ooo-qa) list I can add to website for you. We can also add some text to that page to explain what the numbers mean. -Rob 2012/10/29 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 8:20 AM, Ji Yan yanji...@gmail.com wrote: Please find weekly defect analysis report http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/QA/Report/DefectStatus/20121029 Thanks for the report. Would it be possible to also get an update for this chart: http://www.openoffice.org/stats/defects.html ??? The data file is here: http://www.openoffice.org/stats/defects.txt Can I get the right numbers from that report? -Rob -- Thanks Best Regards, Yan Ji -- Thanks Best Regards, Yan Ji
[question] build infra structure.
Hi I have been searching for detailed internal information about how the build process works with build and dmake (gnumake). I have seen the relationship in the single directories (prj/build.lst prj/d.lst and makefile.mk), but I cannot find a central makefile. If I understand life, there should be a central makefile, telling e.g. how .cpp is translated to .o Can somebody please point me in the direction, or tell me if it done in a different way ? My reason for asking is that I need to add a set of new standard rules for localization (.xhlp - .po ) Thanks in advance. Jan
Re: [ApacheCon] BoF session on AOO community
Roberto, On 12-10-31, at 15:14 , Roberto Galoppini rgalopp...@geek.net wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote: On 29/10/2012 Roberto Galoppini wrote: A more diverse and sustainable project. For example, until few years ago having OOo integrated or at least able to interoperate with SAP was a distinct dream, is there any chance we can have the right SAP people to attend the AOO BoF, and discuss about this? This would be quite interesting too. I don't have any contacts, but it would be good to have SAP people there and, in general, devote a part of the session to exploring how OpenOffice can interoperate with other solutions (or what the OpenOffice community can do to allow others to be able to integrate with OpenOffice more easily), so not only the community in a strict sense but the ecosystem around it too. I have sent an email to my open source contacts at SAP, maybe other Apache members might have contacts too. I have my old friend from Sun, Erwin T., as well as others through him, and then some outside of open source. We've had discussions with SAP before—but that was prior-moulting, when we were still Oracles. Having been in the OOo migrations' business for some years, I firmly believe we should try hard to reduce the SI integration gap. Absolutely. Totally agree. Huzza. So let's. Can we perhaps formalize this in a wiki of Things That Are Important or At Least Worth It? Louis Roberto Regards, Andrea. -- This e- mail message is intended only for the named recipient(s) above. It may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail and any attachment(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender by replying to this e-mail and delete the message and any attachment(s) from your system. Thank you.
Updating ooo-dev list subscriber stats -- need assist from list moderator
This page here: http://www.openoffice.org/stats/ooo-dev-subscribers.html I'd like to update this one a month. Now seems like a good time. This is really, really easy to do. All that is required is to update this CSV file in Subversion and publish it on the website: http://www.openoffice.org/stats/ooo-dev.txt This is a 2 minute task for anyone familiar with the CMS. But we do need to feed it data that only a list moderator has access to. List moderators can get the current subscriber report by sending this request: ooo-dev-l...@incubator.apache.org. Can I get some help with this from a list moderator? Thanks! -Rob
Re: old business...old OpenOffice domain names registered by Oracle (primarily)
On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Oct 31, 2012, at 1:05 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: On 12-10-31, at 14:17 , Andrew Rist andrew.r...@oracle.com wrote: On 10/31/2012 8:54 AM, Kay Schenk wrote: On 10/30/2012 04:14 PM, Andrew Rist wrote: On 10/30/2012 1:39 PM, Kay Schenk wrote: Looking at old threads, I'm a bit confused about the outcome of this one: http://markmail.org/message/ldigtivvyy2su62u Currently some of the .com domains don't even show up on the DNS radar, and on the others remaining registered by Oracle. Was it the outcome of this discussion to have Oracle transfer the registrations to the ASF? I thought that was perhaps what we wanted to do, but ti doesn't seem to have happened yet. Andrew, can you shed some light? Thanks. https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4906 I guess it's not been on the top of any of our lists. The domains were opened up for transfer on the Oracle side (not sure if that times out). Andrew Thanks for the update. I'm not sure what this means though. :/ Oracle didn't renew them and now these domains are up for grabs? Unfortunately - that does seem to be the case. I'm not sure if that is really a problem, though. I don't think it is. A lot of these domains were acquired as a defensive measure, and I am not sure there is currently a substantial problem with these 'similar domains'. Quite. I was working with the legal team at Sun and then Oracle on these and a) not many of them and b) the efforts were targeted and defensive and did not really map to any aggressive outreach strategy. Actually, to say a nice thing about a certain set of companies, the efforts really were directed to shelter the most active communities. I did a series of whois requests on these domains. They seems to be registered with Tucows on auto-renewal: eg: Domain ID:D159673109-LROR Domain Name:IT-OPENOFFICE.ORG Created On:16-Jul-2010 19:33:15 UTC Last Updated On:17-Jun-2012 06:09:50 UTC Expiration Date:16-Jul-2013 19:33:15 UTC Sponsoring Registrar:Tucows Inc. (R11-LROR) Also, if a problem does arise, we have the trademark to protect the brand. Yes, but perhaps we can start a new thread or threads that can finalize this issue and re-frame it not as a set of defensive tactics but as a strategy to promote AOO, and to use the domains as vehicles for that promotion…. The thread name is correct. This is old business.. Choice 1 - work to transfer domains to the ASF so that the AOO can do something with these domains. In order to take control of the DNS for each domain we need someone with Apache Infrastructure karma to work in concert with the proper person from Oracle in order to transfer all of these domain registrations. Right. If they're on auto-renewal, would this mean that Oracle got billed and paid for them or ??? Choice 2 - ignore these domains. Let Oracle know we don't care. They can make their own choice about renewing these domains or not. I don't know when the renewal dates are but my DNS info indicates they sill *belong* to Oracle, so my assumption is they've been renewed by Oracle. So, maybe we're really at Choice 1. (at least many of the *.org ones resolves, the *.com ones don't. I didn't check them all however.) If we do still want them, we need an Oracle contact. Assuming we want to proceed with this, Andrew can you provide an Oracle contact via a JIRA ticket to INFRA, and we'll see where we get with this. Regards, Dave Andrew -louis -- MzK Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat. -- Robert Heinlein
Re: AOO volunteers: essential skills and tasks
On 10/31/2012 11:36 AM, jan iversen wrote: +1 to your 3 layer strategy. I have made a proposal for the wiki page, however I am not competent to fill in the tasks. http://wiki.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=Communication/new_contributorsaction=submit I have NOT linked it in anywhere, but a natural link would in participation on the main page. Jan. OK, I will bail out from this for now, and see what else develops here. You know what they say about too many cooks... :/ Looking forward to interesting results from both Rob and Jan. I will certainly help as I see a need. On 31 October 2012 18:59, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 1:46 PM, jan iversen jancasacon...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. I think your md pages are SUPERwhat I suggested was an additional wiki page (actually someone else called it postoffice) where we put small tasks that need to be translated / written etc. So I see your pages go hand in hand with Wiki pages, just too different levels of interaction with the community. Right. So maybe when we do a wider call for volunteers we can offer three tracks: 1) Sign up for ooo-dev and drink from the firehose (our only current option) 2) A short intro on the wiki, one that doesn't exist yet, but maybe someone can write one. 3) A longer self-paced intro on the website (what I'm working on) They are volunteers, so we can't force them to do anything. But we can offer them a few choices. I'm happy to provide one of those choices. Who wants to provide another? -Rob jan On 31 October 2012 16:59, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/28/2012 04:30 PM, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@apache.org wrote: On 23/10/2012 Rob Weir wrote: New Volunteer Orientation root page: http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/orientation/ This is an excellent resource. But we received a few requests from prospective volunteers this weekend and I'm believing it would be overwhelming to point them there. I still believe these documents are excellent, but probably they are assuming our volunteer is above average, or at least willing to engage deeply with the project. They would be perfect for me, for you, or for a newcomer like Jan who has the skills and the mindset to understand in detail how things work. And how do we know in advance which volunteers are like Jan and which are not? I think we should find some way to point them to the info and say that they are welcome to jump in and ignore this all, or skim it in parallel with direct participation, or read through this stuff first. It is entirely up to them. But generally, the more one needs to interact with other project participants and other systems and even other parts of Apache, the more this information becomes useful. Although not stated, one could almost say that Level 4 would be becoming a Committer. So you are correct that this is a track for a more determined volunteer, But we will also have (and we do have: most volunteers I see on the mailing lists in Italian fall in this category) volunteers who don't care that much about OpenOffice as a project: they use the product and just want to give something back. They want to scratch an itch, or just to do something, but they are very task-oriented: they want something to do rather than something to read. For example, we may have translation volunteers who would be perfectly satisfied if we e-mail them a PO file and tell them to grab POEdit and send the file back; and then they would consider a deeper engagement, but not earlier. Translation volunteers are different in many ways, but even there I think we need some solid orientation material. They won't go far before wondering why they cannot write to Pootle and the website, but others can. That leads us into discussion of roles at Apache, etc. And we really need to expose them to the Apache License at the earliest opportunity. We do no one any favors if we're passing around PO files via private mail, and receiving translations without any public record of contribution. In any case, this is an issue we've had for a while. Becoming a Committer is a higher hurdle than is appropriate for most translation volunteers, due to iCLA, etc. The orientation guides did not create this problem, they merely remind us of it. And indeed they are not totally wrong: knowing how the Apache Board works is not needed to be able to translate a press release, or a few OpenOffice strings, into Italian. Could it be that we need a practical entry point for people who want to help and just want to do it immediately? Placing these information at level 3 of the Volunteer Orientation seems too much for volunteers who want to jump in and do something (while, again, the orientation guide is excellent for a skilled, determined volunteer).
Re: extensions and translations.
Am 10/27/2012 01:17 AM, schrieb jan iversen: I see, I have to get used to this license issues (a long time ago I believed open source was just open source, then I joined an apache project). never mind. Would it be to our advantage if we offered third party developers (that is how I see extension developers) the possibility to register a language file and get it translated as part of the language packs ? Of course it would be to our advantage; or let's say for the project and software. A lot of extensions would be available in many languages. However, I don't know where we should draw the line to set a limit. When we select here and there some extensions, then the other developers will ask why not their extensions. And IMHO it's not possible to translate all strings for all extensions. But maybe others here have a great idea? Or should we just say extension developers does not concern us (and help AOO get more used) so we just look the other way ? Maybe the right way is somewhere in the middle. Yeah, maybe. ;-) Marcus On 27 October 2012 00:58, Marcus (OOo)marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: Am 10/27/2012 12:36 AM, schrieb jan iversen: While doing an update to the l10n workflow I think I found a slight problem. Extensions offers the capability to integrate/extend our UI. Assuming somebody writes an extension, and publishes it on http://www.openoffice.org/**extensions/http://www.openoffice.org/extensions/how does that get integrated into the translation process ? Simply, not at all. As far as I can see the sources are not integrated into our build --all --with-lang. Right. If I am right that they are not part of the general translation, then is that per design so or should it be different ? Yes, this is by design. Extensions are offered to extent your AOO install at any point of time. These are developed by people that do not have to belong to our project (when we put aside some exceptions). They can act independently. And therefore they are allowed to (or have to ;-) ) do all on their own; incl. translation. That applies for all extensions and templates available on: - http://extensions.services.**openoffice.orghttp://extensions.services.openoffice.org - http://templates.services.**openoffice.orghttp://templates.services.openoffice.org I might be following a wrong track here, but please forgive me for trying to make the l10n process as complete as I can. Don't panic. That's a great goal and everybody is thankful to you for doing this task. Marcus
Re: Updating ooo-dev list subscriber stats -- need assist from list moderator
Original Message From: Rob Weir robw...@apache.org To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:56:00 -0400 This page here: http://www.openoffice.org/stats/ooo-dev-subscribers.html I'd like to update this one a month. Now seems like a good time. This is really, really easy to do. All that is required is to update this CSV file in Subversion and publish it on the website: http://www.openoffice.org/stats/ooo-dev.txt This is a 2 minute task for anyone familiar with the CMS. But we do need to feed it data that only a list moderator has access to. List moderators can get the current subscriber report by sending this request: ooo-dev-l...@incubator.apache.org. Can I get some help with this from a list moderator? Thanks! -Rob Rob, I have got the list, but it's 1am here and I have got to get some sleep. I will update the page tomorrow. Dave
[VCLAuto] SayHello dosn't quit AOO at the end
Hi at all The SayHello Script dosn't quit AOO at the end, while other scripts do this. This left the soffice process behind and can make trubble. Greetings Raphael -- My private Homepage: http://www.raphaelbircher.ch/
Re: Volunteers, Contributors, Committers, PMC members -- is there any way to consolidate these lists?
Just found this thread...it's a very good discussion. It will help people like me to understand the community much more easily, and to find people who have the same interest. How is this work going? Helen 2012/10/25 Sylvain DENIS sylvain.tech...@gmail.com Big thanks, Rob librement, *Sylvain DENIS* /Expert TIC, FLOSS WEB Conseiller en sécurité de l'information Formateur, conférencier/ Le 25/10/12 13:50, Rob Weir a écrit : It will be a wiki page, so you will be able to add your own information. I will send an announcement when it is ready. -Rob
