Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
Ken Gunderson wrote: >> I'm very familiar with it. It's *nice*, but I don't have a reason to >> leave Gnome at this point (and if I did, it'd probably be to something >> like OpenBox/FluxBox). > > OpenBox Rocks! Hint, hint Blastwave ;) Hint, hint *patch*. Glynn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
Ken Gunderson wrote: > This thread has discussed a few different things - I must be confused > but I thought current context was Gnome dumping core, at least in some > cases due to ASSERT being enabled for debugging purposes. I'm just > reporting that I have Gnome dumping core on _both_ 79 and 84 builds, > particularly when running Evolution, frequently enough so as to make > either of them unusable for daily operations. > > I further reported that this is occurring on amd64 bit hardware > because in my experience w/other OS's bugs pop up in 64 bit mode that > seem to slip past 32 bit mode. Submit a bug report with the stack trace (preferably in bugzilla.gnome.org) - I'm sure the developers would be pleased to hear from you. Glynn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
* Ken Gunderson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 11:52:18 -0700 > Glenn Lagasse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > * Ken Gunderson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > > Ok, but that's different from what's being talked about in this thread. > > > > FWIW, I use Gnome in Indiana DP2 every day (and have been since DP2 > > > > released) and haven't had a Gnome crash yet. > > > > > > This thread has discussed a few different things - I must be confused > > > but I thought current context was Gnome dumping core, at least in some > > > cases due to ASSERT being enabled for debugging purposes. I'm just > > > reporting that I have Gnome dumping core on _both_ 79 and 84 builds, > > > particularly when running Evolution, frequently enough so as to make > > > either of them unusable for daily operations. > > > > Fair enough, you're having issues. I and others I know aren't. I'm not > > a Gnome developer so I wouldn't even know where to begin to help track > > down Gnome issues. But, you might try running gnome-cleanup (which > > removes a bunch of gnome settings in your home dir). I've seen this > > solve some peoples crash problems. Of course, you'll want to back up > > your homedir first (or at least the files/dirs that get nuked in the > > gnome-cleanup script). > > This is with fresh, default installs. Others are having issues. I was > just adding my $0.02 in hopes might be helpful for those others. As with all things software, I'm quite certain you are not alone in having problems with Gnome :-) > [snip] > > > > Would love to but I am not a developer and too old to change horses at > > > this stage in life. Hence my first sentence in the paragraph above. If > > > you've not ever looked at Xfce, or looked at it lately, perhaps you > > > might want to take a gander. I have several unix grey beard type > > > buddies who've ditched Gnome for Xfce after taking it for a test drive > > > and in recent years Xfce is attracting an increasingly large cadre of > > > "Gnome Refugees". There must be a reason. > > > > I'm very familiar with it. It's *nice*, but I don't have a reason to > > leave Gnome at this point (and if I did, it'd probably be to something > > like OpenBox/FluxBox). > > OpenBox Rocks! Hint, hint Blastwave ;) > > > As for a reason that Xfce is attracting "Gnome Refugees", I'm sure there > > is one. However, I'd love to see a real investigation into why (if in > > fact that is the case) rather than postulate that "there must be a > > reason" before drawing any conclusions. :-) > > Well, it's a simple task to subscribe to Xfce list and ask how many > _used_ to use Gnome > > I'm not advocating Sun ditch Gnome. Only that other options also be > explored. Work is in process with KDE porting. Xfce is gtk based so > seems like Sun could leverage a lot of what they've already done with > Gnome and Xfce may offer some low hanging fruit compared to effort > required for KDE. Understood (all along in fact). All I'm saying is that the community shouldn't wait for Sun to do everything they'd like to see done. Because they'll likely be pretty disappointed. :-) > Choice is a good thing, and I would think, make Sun packages OS > offerings attractive to more users. For example, I've pointed a few > folks to OS, but when they see Gnome as only option, w/o having to go > to 3rd party repos and extra hassle, that's about the end of that (other > than giving me a good natured hard time for suggesting something so > lame). SXDE/CE are batting 0 for 7 on this one. These are all pretty > seasoned and capable Unix folks but they don't have interest in > spending their time "battling the desktop". Glad it's working for you > but all of these folks complained of buggy Gnome. fwiw- I'm the only > one still "mucking about" with it:) I couldn't agree more with you about choice being a good thing. I'd *love* to see Xfce available for OpenSolaris as an option in the reposs. Heck, I'd love to see the entire Debian repository (the largest software repository that I'm aware of, at last check they had some 10's of thousands of packages iirc though I could be misremembering) available for OpenSolaris. But, Sun isn't likely going to be the entity that causes that to happen in it's entirety. And that's all I'm trying to point out. As for Gnome being a non-starter for some people, oh well. You can't please everyone. At some point, I expect we'll have alternatives (KDE porting work as a simple example) and then maybe we'll appeal to more people (or maybe we won't). I will say, that there's quite a bit in Blastwave (that runs on Indiana and SXCE/SXDE) in terms of alternate window managers/DE's (xfce 4.2.3.2 in fact). Perhaps pointing that out to people might help. Cheers, -- Glenn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 11:52:18 -0700 Glenn Lagasse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * Ken Gunderson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > Ok, but that's different from what's being talked about in this thread. > > > FWIW, I use Gnome in Indiana DP2 every day (and have been since DP2 > > > released) and haven't had a Gnome crash yet. > > > > This thread has discussed a few different things - I must be confused > > but I thought current context was Gnome dumping core, at least in some > > cases due to ASSERT being enabled for debugging purposes. I'm just > > reporting that I have Gnome dumping core on _both_ 79 and 84 builds, > > particularly when running Evolution, frequently enough so as to make > > either of them unusable for daily operations. > > Fair enough, you're having issues. I and others I know aren't. I'm not > a Gnome developer so I wouldn't even know where to begin to help track > down Gnome issues. But, you might try running gnome-cleanup (which > removes a bunch of gnome settings in your home dir). I've seen this > solve some peoples crash problems. Of course, you'll want to back up > your homedir first (or at least the files/dirs that get nuked in the > gnome-cleanup script). This is with fresh, default installs. Others are having issues. I was just adding my $0.02 in hopes might be helpful for those others. [snip] > > Would love to but I am not a developer and too old to change horses at > > this stage in life. Hence my first sentence in the paragraph above. If > > you've not ever looked at Xfce, or looked at it lately, perhaps you > > might want to take a gander. I have several unix grey beard type > > buddies who've ditched Gnome for Xfce after taking it for a test drive > > and in recent years Xfce is attracting an increasingly large cadre of > > "Gnome Refugees". There must be a reason. > > I'm very familiar with it. It's *nice*, but I don't have a reason to > leave Gnome at this point (and if I did, it'd probably be to something > like OpenBox/FluxBox). OpenBox Rocks! Hint, hint Blastwave ;) > As for a reason that Xfce is attracting "Gnome Refugees", I'm sure there > is one. However, I'd love to see a real investigation into why (if in > fact that is the case) rather than postulate that "there must be a > reason" before drawing any conclusions. :-) Well, it's a simple task to subscribe to Xfce list and ask how many _used_ to use Gnome I'm not advocating Sun ditch Gnome. Only that other options also be explored. Work is in process with KDE porting. Xfce is gtk based so seems like Sun could leverage a lot of what they've already done with Gnome and Xfce may offer some low hanging fruit compared to effort required for KDE. Choice is a good thing, and I would think, make Sun packages OS offerings attractive to more users. For example, I've pointed a few folks to OS, but when they see Gnome as only option, w/o having to go to 3rd party repos and extra hassle, that's about the end of that (other than giving me a good natured hard time for suggesting something so lame). SXDE/CE are batting 0 for 7 on this one. These are all pretty seasoned and capable Unix folks but they don't have interest in spending their time "battling the desktop". Glad it's working for you but all of these folks complained of buggy Gnome. fwiw- I'm the only one still "mucking about" with it:) -- Best regards, Ken Gunderson Q: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. A: Why is putting a reply at the top of the message frowned upon? ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:10:24 -0500 "Shawn Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 07:46:38 -0500 > > "Shawn Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 2:02 AM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > I've used both Gnome and KDE off and on since 0.x days but ditched > > both > > > > in favor of Xfce in more recent years. In my opinion Sun (along with > > > > other US corps) bet on the wrong horse with Gnome. I'm looking > > forward > > > > to the ongoing KDE4 work (although KDE has become a bit too "glitzy" > > for > > > > me) but that's going to be a while yet. > > > > > > > > What would be really appreciated is if Sun/OS would invest some > > > > energies in porting Xfce - lightweight, fast, and sports a nice window > > > > manager that actually does useful things like shade on mouse title bar > > > > scroll, right click anywhere for full menu, page desktops on mouse > > > > scroll, etc. It's gtk based and attracts a lot of "Gnome refugees" to > > > > it's ranks, so should not be too hard to port, eh? > > > > > > xfce has a long way to go before getting to Section 508 compliance, etc. > > > > Not sure about this one, but who cares? Why should majority suffer > > additional bloat and bugs for a small minority so long as _other_ > > options exist that _do_ accommodate that minority? > > Sun as a public company is *required* by law to seek Section 508 compliance. > > People who don't have friends or family members, or who themselves are > not physically disadvantaged in some way, often don't understand the > need for Section 508 compliance. > > These folks are disadvantaged, through no fault of their own usually, > and deserve the same opportunities we have to use software and live > life. Right. But enabling such features should be an option, not default requirement. > > > It also is relatively immature compared to KDE or GNOME for now. > > > > -1 > > -1 means nothing in this context. GNOME has a hig, has had numerous > accessibility and other studies performed, and especially on Solaris, > is far better supported. It's a no brainer that obviously would be better supported since Sun has made an investment in that direction. Regarding HIG, there are many who feel that Havoc is misguided, Linus Torvalds being one of the more prominent ones. I being one of the less. Xfce subscribes to HIG. One of it's downsides, imho. Not to be outdone, KDE is working on crippling some stuff as well as of late. > > > GNOME is far more mature as a platform than KDE or XFCE, right now, > > > when it comes to accessibility, etc. > > > > -1 > > -1 what? > > > > For many business purposes, GNOME still has friendlier licensing than > > > KDE or components KDE relies on as well. Well now you're citing licensing issue to support claim that Gnome is more mature and accessible. Moreover, seeing how KDE has been in existence longer than Gnome, how can you assert it's less mature. Same for Xfce if you take into account that it's based/ported from CDE. > > Care to back this up with specific references? > > It's quite simple. GNOME is primarily LGPL. KDE relies on many GPL > components, especially its core window toolkit. > > Sun came to the same conclusion when they chose GNOME, so I'm told. And I've had it whispered in my ear that a lot of the decision by various US corps to back Gnome was based more on nationalism concerns than technical merit. > > > Sun spent millions on GNOME in years past before xfce was really known > > > at all, so it makes sense for them to stick with their investment. > > > > No it doesn't. When you've made a mistake, smart leaders correct > > rather than pouring good money after bad. > > I haven't seen anything to prove it was a mistake yet. > > Quite the opposite. Then why, despite all this backing by various US corp entities, does Gnome still take back seat to KDE by something like 3:1 ratio in terms of user base? I'll venture a hypothesis: any *nix based DE is not going to be able to seriously compete w/MS for corp workstation in the foreseeable future. Hence the lack of uptake in this market despite the various periodic marketing pushes from Novell, IBM, etc. So who's left as user base? People smart enough to not want a crippled DE that's designed to be "usable" by lowest common demominator (e.g. does the print dialog still omit "duplex" option in name of "usability"?), and this sector seems to exhibit strong preference for KDE. Thankfully there are some within Sun who see this issue differently than you and are actively working on porting of KDE;) -- Best regards, Ken Gunderson Q: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. A: Why is putting a reply at the top of the message frowned upon? ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
* Ken Gunderson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Ok, but that's different from what's being talked about in this thread. > > FWIW, I use Gnome in Indiana DP2 every day (and have been since DP2 > > released) and haven't had a Gnome crash yet. > > This thread has discussed a few different things - I must be confused > but I thought current context was Gnome dumping core, at least in some > cases due to ASSERT being enabled for debugging purposes. I'm just > reporting that I have Gnome dumping core on _both_ 79 and 84 builds, > particularly when running Evolution, frequently enough so as to make > either of them unusable for daily operations. Fair enough, you're having issues. I and others I know aren't. I'm not a Gnome developer so I wouldn't even know where to begin to help track down Gnome issues. But, you might try running gnome-cleanup (which removes a bunch of gnome settings in your home dir). I've seen this solve some peoples crash problems. Of course, you'll want to back up your homedir first (or at least the files/dirs that get nuked in the gnome-cleanup script). > I further reported that this is occurring on amd64 bit hardware > because in my experience w/other OS's bugs pop up in 64 bit mode that > seem to slip past 32 bit mode. I'm running on 64-bit Intel hardware (Lenovo T61p to be precise). > > > What would be really appreciated is if Sun/OS would invest some > > > energies in porting Xfce - lightweight, fast, and sports a nice window > > > manager that actually does useful things like shade on mouse title bar > > > scroll, right click anywhere for full menu, page desktops on mouse > > > scroll, etc. It's gtk based and attracts a lot of "Gnome refugees" to > > > it's ranks, so should not be too hard to port, eh? > > > > Feel free to step right up and take that on :-) > > Would love to but I am not a developer and too old to change horses at > this stage in life. Hence my first sentence in the paragraph above. If > you've not ever looked at Xfce, or looked at it lately, perhaps you > might want to take a gander. I have several unix grey beard type > buddies who've ditched Gnome for Xfce after taking it for a test drive > and in recent years Xfce is attracting an increasingly large cadre of > "Gnome Refugees". There must be a reason. I'm very familiar with it. It's *nice*, but I don't have a reason to leave Gnome at this point (and if I did, it'd probably be to something like OpenBox/FluxBox). As for a reason that Xfce is attracting "Gnome Refugees", I'm sure there is one. However, I'd love to see a real investigation into why (if in fact that is the case) rather than postulate that "there must be a reason" before drawing any conclusions. :-) Cheers, -- Glenn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 11:07:31 -0700 Glenn Lagasse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * Ken Gunderson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:00:32 -0700 > > Glenn Lagasse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Hey Ken, > > > > > > * Ken Gunderson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > > On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:15:33 -0600 > > > > Jim Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thanks Brian, > > > > > > > > > > Was there a flag day for this? If not, I would think about > > > > > making one. Finding the bugs is a good thing, but impacting > > > > > users that don't have time to be beta testers at the moment > > > > > isn't. > > > > > > > > +1. Makes OS utterly unusable for me in any Sun packaged form, > > > > including SXDE, wh/I was told was supposedly more "well tested" version > > > > that would be more stable/suitable for workstation use. > > > > > > So, just to clarify some things. > > > > > > 1) this is not a problem in SXDE (I believe, since the last SXDE was > > > from january). This is seen in the SXCE releases starting with 84 (I > > > believe). > > > > > > 2) SXCE is an 'under development' release (which SXDE is based off of > > > once we stabilize it). There are going to be bumps along the way. That > > > said, lots of developers inside Sun (certainly in the Solaris org) run > > > these builds to get real work done (which is how we find some of these > > > more interesting problems). > > > > To clarify - I'm seeing Gnome crashes, Evolution in particular, on both > > latest SXDE and SXCE, builds 79 and 84, respectively. And on previous > > SXDE as well. Some might say "just use Thunderbird" but then I might as > > well use winblows For what it's worth, hardware in this instance is > > Tyan K8E and Opteron 180, wh/I believe is essentially same board Sun > > based for their X2100 on. > > Ok, but that's different from what's being talked about in this thread. > FWIW, I use Gnome in Indiana DP2 every day (and have been since DP2 > released) and haven't had a Gnome crash yet. This thread has discussed a few different things - I must be confused but I thought current context was Gnome dumping core, at least in some cases due to ASSERT being enabled for debugging purposes. I'm just reporting that I have Gnome dumping core on _both_ 79 and 84 builds, particularly when running Evolution, frequently enough so as to make either of them unusable for daily operations. I further reported that this is occurring on amd64 bit hardware because in my experience w/other OS's bugs pop up in 64 bit mode that seem to slip past 32 bit mode. > > What would be really appreciated is if Sun/OS would invest some > > energies in porting Xfce - lightweight, fast, and sports a nice window > > manager that actually does useful things like shade on mouse title bar > > scroll, right click anywhere for full menu, page desktops on mouse > > scroll, etc. It's gtk based and attracts a lot of "Gnome refugees" to > > it's ranks, so should not be too hard to port, eh? > > Feel free to step right up and take that on :-) Would love to but I am not a developer and too old to change horses at this stage in life. Hence my first sentence in the paragraph above. If you've not ever looked at Xfce, or looked at it lately, perhaps you might want to take a gander. I have several unix grey beard type buddies who've ditched Gnome for Xfce after taking it for a test drive and in recent years Xfce is attracting an increasingly large cadre of "Gnome Refugees". There must be a reason. -- Best regards, Ken Gunderson Q: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. A: Why is putting a reply at the top of the message frowned upon? ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 07:46:38 -0500 > "Shawn Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 2:02 AM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I've used both Gnome and KDE off and on since 0.x days but ditched both > > > in favor of Xfce in more recent years. In my opinion Sun (along with > > > other US corps) bet on the wrong horse with Gnome. I'm looking forward > > > to the ongoing KDE4 work (although KDE has become a bit too "glitzy" for > > > me) but that's going to be a while yet. > > > > > > What would be really appreciated is if Sun/OS would invest some > > > energies in porting Xfce - lightweight, fast, and sports a nice window > > > manager that actually does useful things like shade on mouse title bar > > > scroll, right click anywhere for full menu, page desktops on mouse > > > scroll, etc. It's gtk based and attracts a lot of "Gnome refugees" to > > > it's ranks, so should not be too hard to port, eh? > > > > xfce has a long way to go before getting to Section 508 compliance, etc. > > Not sure about this one, but who cares? Why should majority suffer > additional bloat and bugs for a small minority so long as _other_ > options exist that _do_ accommodate that minority? Sun as a public company is *required* by law to seek Section 508 compliance. People who don't have friends or family members, or who themselves are not physically disadvantaged in some way, often don't understand the need for Section 508 compliance. These folks are disadvantaged, through no fault of their own usually, and deserve the same opportunities we have to use software and live life. > > It also is relatively immature compared to KDE or GNOME for now. > > -1 -1 means nothing in this context. GNOME has a hig, has had numerous accessibility and other studies performed, and especially on Solaris, is far better supported. > > GNOME is far more mature as a platform than KDE or XFCE, right now, > > when it comes to accessibility, etc. > > -1 -1 what? > > For many business purposes, GNOME still has friendlier licensing than > > KDE or components KDE relies on as well. > > Care to back this up with specific references? It's quite simple. GNOME is primarily LGPL. KDE relies on many GPL components, especially its core window toolkit. Sun came to the same conclusion when they chose GNOME, so I'm told. > > Sun spent millions on GNOME in years past before xfce was really known > > at all, so it makes sense for them to stick with their investment. > > No it doesn't. When you've made a mistake, smart leaders correct > rather than pouring good money after bad. I haven't seen anything to prove it was a mistake yet. Quite the opposite. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ "To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." - Robert Orben ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
* Ken Gunderson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:00:32 -0700 > Glenn Lagasse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hey Ken, > > > > * Ken Gunderson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:15:33 -0600 > > > Jim Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Thanks Brian, > > > > > > > > Was there a flag day for this? If not, I would think about > > > > making one. Finding the bugs is a good thing, but impacting > > > > users that don't have time to be beta testers at the moment > > > > isn't. > > > > > > +1. Makes OS utterly unusable for me in any Sun packaged form, > > > including SXDE, wh/I was told was supposedly more "well tested" version > > > that would be more stable/suitable for workstation use. > > > > So, just to clarify some things. > > > > 1) this is not a problem in SXDE (I believe, since the last SXDE was > > from january). This is seen in the SXCE releases starting with 84 (I > > believe). > > > > 2) SXCE is an 'under development' release (which SXDE is based off of > > once we stabilize it). There are going to be bumps along the way. That > > said, lots of developers inside Sun (certainly in the Solaris org) run > > these builds to get real work done (which is how we find some of these > > more interesting problems). > > To clarify - I'm seeing Gnome crashes, Evolution in particular, on both > latest SXDE and SXCE, builds 79 and 84, respectively. And on previous > SXDE as well. Some might say "just use Thunderbird" but then I might as > well use winblows For what it's worth, hardware in this instance is > Tyan K8E and Opteron 180, wh/I believe is essentially same board Sun > based for their X2100 on. Ok, but that's different from what's being talked about in this thread. FWIW, I use Gnome in Indiana DP2 every day (and have been since DP2 released) and haven't had a Gnome crash yet. > What would be really appreciated is if Sun/OS would invest some > energies in porting Xfce - lightweight, fast, and sports a nice window > manager that actually does useful things like shade on mouse title bar > scroll, right click anywhere for full menu, page desktops on mouse > scroll, etc. It's gtk based and attracts a lot of "Gnome refugees" to > it's ranks, so should not be too hard to port, eh? Feel free to step right up and take that on :-) This is OpenSolaris after all. Cheers, -- Glenn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 07:46:38 -0500 "Shawn Walker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 2:02 AM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I've used both Gnome and KDE off and on since 0.x days but ditched both > > in favor of Xfce in more recent years. In my opinion Sun (along with > > other US corps) bet on the wrong horse with Gnome. I'm looking forward > > to the ongoing KDE4 work (although KDE has become a bit too "glitzy" for > > me) but that's going to be a while yet. > > > > What would be really appreciated is if Sun/OS would invest some > > energies in porting Xfce - lightweight, fast, and sports a nice window > > manager that actually does useful things like shade on mouse title bar > > scroll, right click anywhere for full menu, page desktops on mouse > > scroll, etc. It's gtk based and attracts a lot of "Gnome refugees" to > > it's ranks, so should not be too hard to port, eh? > > xfce has a long way to go before getting to Section 508 compliance, etc. Not sure about this one, but who cares? Why should majority suffer additional bloat and bugs for a small minority so long as _other_ options exist that _do_ accommodate that minority? > It also is relatively immature compared to KDE or GNOME for now. -1 > GNOME is far more mature as a platform than KDE or XFCE, right now, > when it comes to accessibility, etc. -1 > For many business purposes, GNOME still has friendlier licensing than > KDE or components KDE relies on as well. Care to back this up with specific references? > Sun spent millions on GNOME in years past before xfce was really known > at all, so it makes sense for them to stick with their investment. No it doesn't. When you've made a mistake, smart leaders correct rather than pouring good money after bad. -- Best regards, Ken Gunderson Q: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. A: Why is putting a reply at the top of the message frowned upon? ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
Brian Nitz wrote: > Do you happen to know if any individual desktop components look at their > own version number and attempt to override this setting? For example in > SNV_82: > > gtkam --version gives 0.1.14 > fc-cache --version gives fontconfig version 2.3.2. fc-cache & fontconfig don't use gtk or glib at all - they're the layer below GNOME - and thus completely unaffected by any of this ASSERTing. -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 2:02 AM, Ken Gunderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've used both Gnome and KDE off and on since 0.x days but ditched both > in favor of Xfce in more recent years. In my opinion Sun (along with > other US corps) bet on the wrong horse with Gnome. I'm looking forward > to the ongoing KDE4 work (although KDE has become a bit too "glitzy" for > me) but that's going to be a while yet. > > What would be really appreciated is if Sun/OS would invest some > energies in porting Xfce - lightweight, fast, and sports a nice window > manager that actually does useful things like shade on mouse title bar > scroll, right click anywhere for full menu, page desktops on mouse > scroll, etc. It's gtk based and attracts a lot of "Gnome refugees" to > it's ranks, so should not be too hard to port, eh? xfce has a long way to go before getting to Section 508 compliance, etc. It also is relatively immature compared to KDE or GNOME for now. GNOME is far more mature as a platform than KDE or XFCE, right now, when it comes to accessibility, etc. For many business purposes, GNOME still has friendlier licensing than KDE or components KDE relies on as well. Sun spent millions on GNOME in years past before xfce was really known at all, so it makes sense for them to stick with their investment. -- Shawn Walker, Software and Systems Analyst http://binarycrusader.blogspot.com/ "To err is human -- and to blame it on a computer is even more so." - Robert Orben ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
Glynn Foster wrote:
> Hey,
>
> Brian Nitz wrote:
>
>> A few things happened to make crashes more common in recent GNOME builds:
>>
>> 1) The GNOME community enabled coreing on ASSERTs in default builds, so
>> some subtle bugs became less subtle.
>>
>
> I'm confused. Has something changed recently? or is this still the code in
> gnome-session/main.c? In which case it should only currently be triggered for
> all x.y.z where y is an unstable number.
>
Glynn, thanks for the correction. I may have been looking at a
vermillion build. IThat part of the gnome-session main.c code doesn't
seem to have changed between 2.20 and 2.22:
if (g_getenv ("GSM_VERBOSE_DEBUG"))
gsm_set_verbose (TRUE);
/* Help eradicate the critical warnings in unstable releases of GNOME */
versions = g_strsplit (VERSION, ".", 3);
if (versions && versions [0] && versions [1])
{
int major;
major = atoi (versions [1]);
if ((major % 2) != 0)
{
g_setenv ("G_DEBUG", "fatal_criticals", FALSE);
g_log_set_always_fatal (G_LOG_LEVEL_CRITICAL);
}
}
g_strfreev (versions);
So if the middle number of gnome-session --version is even, fail on
asserts shouldn't be set.
Do you happen to know if any individual desktop components look at their
own version number and attempt to override this setting? For example in
SNV_82:
gtkam --version gives 0.1.14
fc-cache --version gives fontconfig version 2.3.2.
pidgin --version gives Pidgin 2.1.1
...
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Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:00:32 -0700 Glenn Lagasse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hey Ken, > > * Ken Gunderson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:15:33 -0600 > > Jim Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Thanks Brian, > > > > > > Was there a flag day for this? If not, I would think about > > > making one. Finding the bugs is a good thing, but impacting > > > users that don't have time to be beta testers at the moment > > > isn't. > > > > +1. Makes OS utterly unusable for me in any Sun packaged form, > > including SXDE, wh/I was told was supposedly more "well tested" version > > that would be more stable/suitable for workstation use. > > So, just to clarify some things. > > 1) this is not a problem in SXDE (I believe, since the last SXDE was > from january). This is seen in the SXCE releases starting with 84 (I > believe). > > 2) SXCE is an 'under development' release (which SXDE is based off of > once we stabilize it). There are going to be bumps along the way. That > said, lots of developers inside Sun (certainly in the Solaris org) run > these builds to get real work done (which is how we find some of these > more interesting problems). To clarify - I'm seeing Gnome crashes, Evolution in particular, on both latest SXDE and SXCE, builds 79 and 84, respectively. And on previous SXDE as well. Some might say "just use Thunderbird" but then I might as well use winblows For what it's worth, hardware in this instance is Tyan K8E and Opteron 180, wh/I believe is essentially same board Sun based for their X2100 on. Gnome bug buddy doesn't return anything useful but here's the scoop: 1) Pretty reliably repeatable for me - right click on message list window and reorder sorting to be Subject: From (instead of default From:Subject). Either during or shortly thereafter Evolution is going to crash. 2) Create new accounts - several crashes at various points during setup wizard. These were IMAP in all instances, didn't try POP3, etc. Seems to happen more towards end of wizard than beginning. 3) On couple occasions I was just in Gnome Terminal and crashed. Don't recall what I was doing specifically, but I SSH a lot into other boxes so that might be a good guess... I've used both Gnome and KDE off and on since 0.x days but ditched both in favor of Xfce in more recent years. In my opinion Sun (along with other US corps) bet on the wrong horse with Gnome. I'm looking forward to the ongoing KDE4 work (although KDE has become a bit too "glitzy" for me) but that's going to be a while yet. What would be really appreciated is if Sun/OS would invest some energies in porting Xfce - lightweight, fast, and sports a nice window manager that actually does useful things like shade on mouse title bar scroll, right click anywhere for full menu, page desktops on mouse scroll, etc. It's gtk based and attracts a lot of "Gnome refugees" to it's ranks, so should not be too hard to port, eh? -- Best regards, Ken Gunderson Q: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. A: Why is putting a reply at the top of the message frowned upon? ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
Hey, Brian Nitz wrote: > A few things happened to make crashes more common in recent GNOME builds: > > 1) The GNOME community enabled coreing on ASSERTs in default builds, so > some subtle bugs became less subtle. I'm confused. Has something changed recently? or is this still the code in gnome-session/main.c? In which case it should only currently be triggered for all x.y.z where y is an unstable number. Glynn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
Hey Ken, * Ken Gunderson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:15:33 -0600 > Jim Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Thanks Brian, > > > > Was there a flag day for this? If not, I would think about > > making one. Finding the bugs is a good thing, but impacting > > users that don't have time to be beta testers at the moment > > isn't. > > +1. Makes OS utterly unusable for me in any Sun packaged form, > including SXDE, wh/I was told was supposedly more "well tested" version > that would be more stable/suitable for workstation use. So, just to clarify some things. 1) this is not a problem in SXDE (I believe, since the last SXDE was from january). This is seen in the SXCE releases starting with 84 (I believe). 2) SXCE is an 'under development' release (which SXDE is based off of once we stabilize it). There are going to be bumps along the way. That said, lots of developers inside Sun (certainly in the Solaris org) run these builds to get real work done (which is how we find some of these more interesting problems). Cheers, -- Glenn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:15:33 -0600 Jim Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thanks Brian, > > Was there a flag day for this? If not, I would think about > making one. Finding the bugs is a good thing, but impacting > users that don't have time to be beta testers at the moment > isn't. +1. Makes OS utterly unusable for me in any Sun packaged form, including SXDE, wh/I was told was supposedly more "well tested" version that would be more stable/suitable for workstation use. -- Best regards, Ken Gunderson Q: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. A: Why is putting a reply at the top of the message frowned upon? ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
Jim Walker wrote: > Thanks Brian, > > Was there a flag day for this? If not, I would think about > making one. Finding the bugs is a good thing, but impacting > users that don't have time to be beta testers at the moment > isn't. I'll ask the RE team about this. > > I'm focused on testing myself, so understand both view points. Yes there was also quite a debate over this in the GNOME community. > > My system is still crashing after applying the workarounds. > Is there a way to disable bug buddy/coreing on ASSERT on > a live system? Unfortunately, no. > > Thanks, > Jim > > Brian Nitz wrote: >> A few things happened to make crashes more common in recent GNOME >> builds: >> >> 1) The GNOME community enabled coreing on ASSERTs in default builds, >> so some subtle bugs became less subtle. >> 2) Coring on ASSERT causes some post install scripts to fail on some >> hardware due to a file access race condition. Here are two bugs >> related to that and the corresponding workarounds: >> >> 6631419 - gtk-update-icon-cache dies on first boot after install/upgrade >> Workaround: (as root) >> >> for d in /usr/share/icons/*; do >> [ -d $d ] && >> gtk-update-icon-cache --force $d; >> done >> >> >> 6578750 - fontconfig crash in FcPatternPosition. This should be >> fixed in snv_85: >> >> Run "/usr/bin/fc-cache -sv" from the console, or a failsafe session >> as yourself and as root. >> ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
Thanks Brian, Was there a flag day for this? If not, I would think about making one. Finding the bugs is a good thing, but impacting users that don't have time to be beta testers at the moment isn't. I'm focused on testing myself, so understand both view points. My system is still crashing after applying the workarounds. Is there a way to disable bug buddy/coreing on ASSERT on a live system? Thanks, Jim Brian Nitz wrote: > A few things happened to make crashes more common in recent GNOME builds: > > 1) The GNOME community enabled coreing on ASSERTs in default builds, so > some subtle bugs became less subtle. > 2) Coring on ASSERT causes some post install scripts to fail on some > hardware due to a file access race condition. Here are two bugs related > to that and the corresponding workarounds: > > 6631419 - gtk-update-icon-cache dies on first boot after install/upgrade > Workaround: (as root) > > for d in /usr/share/icons/*; do > [ -d $d ] && > gtk-update-icon-cache --force $d; > done > > > 6578750 - fontconfig crash in FcPatternPosition. This should be fixed > in snv_85: > > Run "/usr/bin/fc-cache -sv" from the console, or a failsafe session as > yourself and as root. > ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
Mario Goebbels wrote: >> 1) The GNOME community enabled coreing on ASSERTs in default builds, so >> some subtle bugs became less subtle. >> > > Can/Will this be disabled in the JDS builds? > > -mg > Yes core on ASSERT should be disabled before any product release. The intention is to uncover these subtle bugs during development so that they won't lead to subtle errors in the product. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
> 1) The GNOME community enabled coreing on ASSERTs in default builds, so > some subtle bugs became less subtle. Can/Will this be disabled in the JDS builds? -mg signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-discuss] [desktop-discuss] How to get an old build?
A few things happened to make crashes more common in recent GNOME builds: 1) The GNOME community enabled coreing on ASSERTs in default builds, so some subtle bugs became less subtle. 2) Coring on ASSERT causes some post install scripts to fail on some hardware due to a file access race condition. Here are two bugs related to that and the corresponding workarounds: 6631419 - gtk-update-icon-cache dies on first boot after install/upgrade Workaround: (as root) for d in /usr/share/icons/*; do [ -d $d ] && gtk-update-icon-cache --force $d; done 6578750 - fontconfig crash in FcPatternPosition. This should be fixed in snv_85: Run "/usr/bin/fc-cache -sv" from the console, or a failsafe session as yourself and as root. Jim Walker wrote: > Alan Coopersmith wrote: > >> Nick Briggs wrote: >> >>> Can't help on getting the older release, but it's not just under vmware that >>> gnome is crashing -- happens 5-20 times a day to me running on b84 on >>> a SunBlade 1000 (w/ dual ffb, xinerama mode) >>> >> Strange - I can't remember the last time GNOME crashed on my SunBlade 2500 >> (now running nv_84 - I usually live upgrade to the current nevada build >> every month or two). >> >> > > I have an Ultra 45 with XVR-2500 card. After I upgraded to snv_84 last > week I get 5-20 gnome crashes a day, like Nick. With the bug buddy > appearing but never getting any useful data to send in. I never saw > a gnome crash before. I plan on moving to the next build asap. > > Cheers, > Jim > > ___ > desktop-discuss mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
