Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Thomas Goirand]

On 05/03/2011 10:29 AM, Jordan Rinke wrote:
> To make this a bit more democratic I have created a survey. Simply vote for 
> your answer and whichever has the most votes wins. (If we had a forum 
> already, the poll/vote could have happened there)
> 
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z9VPLSJ
> 
> (It is not a unique link, you could probably spoof multiple votes but let's 
> just try to be civil) 

Where's the option "Yes, but only if I have access to it through my mail
client as well"? :)

Thomas

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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Soren Hansen]

2011/5/3 Ron Pedde :
> On 5/2/11 6:10 PM, "Soren Hansen"  wrote:
>>I just know from
>>experience that try as I might, I'm not likely to maintain any sort of
>>motivation to participate in forums for any useful amount of time.
>
> And I think that would be the objective of the forums.  It doesn't make
> sense for core-devs to answer questions like "What's the difference
> between VLAN and Flat managers", when there are others that are willing to
> contribute to the OpenStack community by answering these questions but
> aren't active devs.
>
>> It may be a cultural thing, so it may work out completely differently
>> for OpenStack, but I think the number of Ubuntu core developers who
>> frequent the Ubuntu forums can be counted on one hand. Probably even
>> with fingers to spare.
> And this I see as proof of the utility of forums, because without any
> apparent input from the developers themselves, the Ubuntu forums are a
> great place to find solutions to problems.  As an Ubuntu user, I've used
> the forums many times to find answers to questions, and all (apparently)
> without having to bother the developers at all.
>
> Win win.

Excellent points!

-- 
Soren Hansen        | http://linux2go.dk/
Ubuntu Developer    | http://www.ubuntu.com/
OpenStack Developer | http://www.openstack.org/

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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Soren Hansen]

2011/5/3 Everett Toews :
> What I think the essential features for any user support forum are:
> 1. ability to up vote so the best answers bubble to the top.
> 2. for the original poster to be able pick the answer they used.

In addition to forums, Ubuntu also has a StackExchange.com site. This
gives you at least these two features, but I'm not sure we're yet at a
size that warrants such a site, but it's something to keep in mind for
the future.

-- 
Soren Hansen        | http://linux2go.dk/
Ubuntu Developer    | http://www.ubuntu.com/
OpenStack Developer | http://www.openstack.org/

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Re: [Openstack] Do we need SSL on nova-api ports?

[Soren Hansen]

2011/5/3 Todd Willey :
> In a heavily load-balanced environment you'll probably want to terminate SSL 
>before it gets
> proxied to the actual api servers,

Why is that? It seems like a win to distribute as much processing as
possible, including SSL termination?

-- 
Soren Hansen        | http://linux2go.dk/
Ubuntu Developer    | http://www.ubuntu.com/
OpenStack Developer | http://www.openstack.org/

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[Openstack] Reminder: OpenStack team meeting - 21:00 UTC

[Thierry Carrez]

Hello everyone,

Our first post-design-summit weekly team meeting of the Diablo era will
take place at 21:00 UTC this Tuesday in #openstack-meeting on IRC.

Check out how that time translates for *your* timezone:
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20110503T21

See the meeting agenda, edit the wiki to add new topics for discussion:
http://wiki.openstack.org/Meetings

Cheers,

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Thierry Carrez]

Jordan Rinke wrote:
> I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about 
> creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to 
> think it was a good idea especially for user support and discussions for 
> people who are not likely to use a mailing list. So I have 2 questions...

A forum is almost always the wrong solution when we talk about a
developer/technical subject. In my experience it always ended up
fragmenting the community between developers (who don't read the forums)
and users (who don't read the rest).

It creates frustration as people ask questions that are not answered. It
creates confusion as non-skilled people give bad answers, and answers
from old threads end up outdated and wrong.

The solution for your problem is not a forum. It's a stackexchange-type
site. Then questions can be edited, de-duplicated and the good answer
wins, with a karma-based meritocracy that ensures self-administration.

So my suggestion is:
Set up a stackexchange-type site, drop LP Answers.

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Thierry Carrez]

Jordan Rinke wrote:
> To make this a bit more democratic I have created a survey. Simply vote for 
> your answer and whichever has the most votes wins. (If we had a forum 
> already, the poll/vote could have happened there)
> 
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z9VPLSJ
> 
> (It is not a unique link, you could probably spoof multiple votes but let's 
> just try to be civil) 

This is not a popularity contest. This is about choosing the right tool,
one that doesn't end up fragmenting our community. There is full range
of tools between LP Answers and a phpBB forum. So it's not a simple
yes/no vote.

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

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Re: [Openstack] Do we need SSL on nova-api ports?

[Dirk-Willem van Gulik]

On 3 May 2011, at 10:31, Soren Hansen wrote:

> 2011/5/3 Todd Willey :
>> In a heavily load-balanced environment you'll probably want to terminate SSL 
>> before it gets
>> proxied to the actual api servers,
> 
> Why is that? It seems like a win to distribute as much processing as
> possible, including SSL termination?

Because most load balancing vendors are either 1) convinced that they need to 
go up the stack and have gradually made it impossible to do blind socket LB - 
and insist on looking at headers and what not, or 2) is soo far out of touch 
and old that blind socket forwarding is not overly practical as the outdated 
means to inform the LB what to blindly forward where is just too painful.

But yes - a bright vendor/standard would indeed do a clever pass through to the 
distributed boxes for at least the initial exchange; optionally facilitate 
session sharing and/or providing it in-line and after the exchange it could be 
informed of the session key and then do a bit more than just blind forwarding.

Dw.



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Re: [Openstack] lunr reference iSCSI target driver

[FUJITA Tomonori]

Thanks for the explanation!

On Mon, 2 May 2011 21:12:22 -0700
Michael Barton  wrote:

> What I've been playing with is having a manifest that contains hashes
> of (4mb) chunks for the volume's backups.  When a user initiates a new
> backup, dm-snapshot does its thing and gives me a block device.  I
> read and hash chunks from that block device and compare them to the
> manifest, uploading any that differ to Swift, then update the manifest
> with the new backup.

Ah, you read and hash chunks from the "whole" block device. I
misunderstood the point.

> The restore uses fuse with some basic bitmap logic to lazy load chunks
> from Swift on demand, plus a background thread that fills them in
> autonomously.  I've been pretty happy with fuse's performance and
> stability (python-fuse that is; fusepy is really slow).

You create a loopback device of the fuse file and set up a dm-snap
device by using it, right?

Tomo

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Re: [Openstack] lunr reference iSCSI target driver

[FUJITA Tomonori]

On Mon, 2 May 2011 21:19:43 -0700
Michael Barton  wrote:

> Oh, and I don't know if keeping track of dirty chunks so backups are
> less work is worth putting an indirection layer on top of volumes.

I think that it depends on volume capacity and the frequency of
snapshot creation.

> It's probably something we can discuss more fully and do some testing
> around later.

Sure. I like the idea to try a simple design first (like something
you explained).

I'm really looking forward to trying the code.

Tomo

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Re: [Openstack] Do we need SSL on nova-api ports?

[Todd Willey]

On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 5:39 AM, Dirk-Willem van Gulik
 wrote:
>
> On 3 May 2011, at 10:31, Soren Hansen wrote:
>
>> 2011/5/3 Todd Willey :
>>> In a heavily load-balanced environment you'll probably want to terminate 
>>> SSL before it gets
>>> proxied to the actual api servers,
>>
>> Why is that? It seems like a win to distribute as much processing as
>> possible, including SSL termination?
>
> Because most load balancing vendors are either 1) convinced that they need to 
> go up the stack and have gradually made it impossible to do blind socket LB - 
> and insist on looking at headers and what not, or 2) is soo far out of touch 
> and old that blind socket forwarding is not overly practical as the outdated 
> means to inform the LB what to blindly forward where is just too painful.
>

I was thinking of hardware acceleration.

> But yes - a bright vendor/standard would indeed do a clever pass through to 
> the distributed boxes for at least the initial exchange; optionally 
> facilitate session sharing and/or providing it in-line and after the exchange 
> it could be informed of the session key and then do a bit more than just 
> blind forwarding.
>
> Dw.
>
>

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Re: [Openstack] Do we need SSL on nova-api ports?

[Dirk-Willem van Gulik]

On 3 May 2011, at 13:30, Todd Willey wrote:

> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 5:39 AM, Dirk-Willem van Gulik
>  wrote:
> >
> > On 3 May 2011, at 10:31, Soren Hansen wrote:
> >
> >> 2011/5/3 Todd Willey :
> >>> In a heavily load-balanced environment you'll probably want to terminate 
> >>> SSL before it gets
> >>> proxied to the actual api servers,
> >>
> >> Why is that? It seems like a win to distribute as much processing as
> >> possible, including SSL termination?
> >
> > Because most load balancing vendors are either 1) convinced that they need 
> > to go up the stack and have gradually made it impossible to do blind socket 
> > LB - and insist on looking at headers and what not, or 2) is soo far out of 
> > touch and old that blind socket forwarding is not overly practical as the 
> > outdated means to inform the LB what to blindly forward where is just too 
> > painful.
> 
> I was thinking of hardware acceleration.

Aye, Agreed - though these days - once the intial DSA/RSA negotiation is done - 
the rest is getting less and less painful[1] in modern environments - and give 
its very cloudy nature - quite likely distributed with enough CPU spare cycles.
> 
> > But yes - a bright vendor/standard would indeed do a clever pass through to 
> > the distributed boxes for at least the initial exchange; optionally 
> > facilitate session sharing and/or providing it in-line and after the 
> > exchange it could be informed of the session key and then do a bit more 
> > than just blind forwarding.
> >
> > Dw.

Dw.

1: http://www.imperialviolet.org/2010/06/25/overclocking-ssl.html



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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Jordan Rinke]

Can anyone name a large successful project that either doesn't have an
official forum, or that multiple unofficial forums haven't sprung up around?

Also, I looked and phpbb has a mod that allows marking topics as solved,
selecting a post as the answer and also giving posts solve ratings so I
think that is a good combination of both worlds (and we could tweak expand
on the concept if needed)

-Original Message-
From: openstack-bounces+jordan=openstack@lists.launchpad.net
[mailto:openstack-bounces+jordan=openstack@lists.launchpad.net] On
Behalf Of Thierry Carrez
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:24 AM
To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Jordan Rinke wrote:
> I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about
creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to
think it was a good idea especially for user support and discussions for
people who are not likely to use a mailing list. So I have 2 questions...

A forum is almost always the wrong solution when we talk about a
developer/technical subject. In my experience it always ended up fragmenting
the community between developers (who don't read the forums) and users (who
don't read the rest).

It creates frustration as people ask questions that are not answered. It
creates confusion as non-skilled people give bad answers, and answers from
old threads end up outdated and wrong.

The solution for your problem is not a forum. It's a stackexchange-type
site. Then questions can be edited, de-duplicated and the good answer wins,
with a karma-based meritocracy that ensures self-administration.

So my suggestion is:
Set up a stackexchange-type site, drop LP Answers.

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Todd Morey]

+1 for the idea of a StackExchange-type site. I tend to find them to be better 
resources than old-school forums, but without the barriers to just "dropping by 
with a question" that Ron mentioned for mailing lists. (It's hard to get users 
to search mailing list archives before reposting a question, especially when 
the search functionality isn't stellar.) I think the StackExchange approach is 
a good balance. Still doesn't fit into a core dev's workflow quite as well, but 
the point is to get users and power users answering questions for each other.

Todd

On May 3, 2011, at 4:24 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:

> Jordan Rinke wrote:
>> I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about 
>> creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to 
>> think it was a good idea especially for user support and discussions for 
>> people who are not likely to use a mailing list. So I have 2 questions...
> 
> A forum is almost always the wrong solution when we talk about a
> developer/technical subject. In my experience it always ended up
> fragmenting the community between developers (who don't read the forums)
> and users (who don't read the rest).
> 
> It creates frustration as people ask questions that are not answered. It
> creates confusion as non-skilled people give bad answers, and answers
> from old threads end up outdated and wrong.
> 
> The solution for your problem is not a forum. It's a stackexchange-type
> site. Then questions can be edited, de-duplicated and the good answer
> wins, with a karma-based meritocracy that ensures self-administration.
> 
> So my suggestion is:
> Set up a stackexchange-type site, drop LP Answers.
> 
> -- 
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
> Release Manager, OpenStack
> 
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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Thierry Carrez]

Jordan Rinke wrote:
> Can anyone name a large successful project that either doesn't have an
> official forum, or that multiple unofficial forums haven't sprung up around?

The Linux Kernel ? Apache HTTPD ? Most projects that have forums are
end-user-oriented, not sysadmin-oriented.

> Also, I looked and phpbb has a mod that allows marking topics as solved,
> selecting a post as the answer and also giving posts solve ratings so I
> think that is a good combination of both worlds (and we could tweak expand
> on the concept if needed)

That doesn't solve the duplication of questions which usually plague forums.

In the end, it all depends on what you're after. If you want a place for
random people to randomly discuss OpenStack, then a forum system is
definitely the good answer. If you want an area where to ask questions
and find answers, then a stackexchange-type site is what you need. Using
one to do the other is a recipe for pain.

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

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Re: [Openstack] Openstack Network service wiki and meeting

[Alex Neefus]

Dan/Rick - 

Have we decided if there is a meeting today (5/3)?

 From my perspective I prefer a delay until 5/10 as originally
discussed. We are working internally at my company to assign resources
to this effort.  

Alex



-Original Message-
From: openstack-bounces+alex=mellanox@lists.launchpad.net
[mailto:openstack-bounces+alex=mellanox@lists.launchpad.net] On
Behalf Of Rick Clark
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 2:29 PM
To: Dan Wendlandt
Cc: Jamey Meredith; Lew Tucker (letucker); Michael Smith (michsmit);
openst...@lab.ntt.co.jp; openstack@lists.launchpad.net; Somik Behera;
Ewan Mellor; Youcef Laribi
Subject: Re: [Openstack] Openstack Network service wiki and meeting

On 05/02/2011 01:19 PM, Dan Wendlandt wrote:
> Thanks Rick,
>
> CC'ing the openstack-list, based on Vish's request that all openstack
> networking discussion be on the main list until we get too chatty and
people
> want to boot us off :)

I was planning to forward it to the list as well.  That's where we need 
to be.  But we need to make sure that everyone understands that we are 
not implying any project status in Openstack and that we will be 
following the process that the PPB approved to request project status.

> I'm as eager as you are to keep the momentum going, but I believe that
> during the session on Friday we had agreed that the first networking
meeting
> would be a week from tuesday (5/10), not this tuesday (5/3).  This
will give
> people time to create/review a proposed set of development-oriented
> blueprints based on friday's list and sync up with their internal
teams
> about what resources they would contribute, etc (these blueprints
still need
> to be created).  It will also let people who weren't at the Friday
meeting
> get an understanding of what we plan on working on and if they want to
be
> involved.

I couldn't remember and my notes were enigmatic at best.  Could we still

meet just to figure out how we want to setup teams and seed the core-dev

teams?  It should not take long.


> Dan
>
> On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Rick Clark
wrote:
>
>> Hello all,
>> I have created some wiki space and a meeting header and agenda
template for
>> the network service projects.
>>
>> http://wiki.openstack.org/Network/
>> http://wiki.openstack.org/Network/Meetings
>>
>> Please start filling in the main page with data and links to the
various
>> documents we've created.
>>
>>
>> The Launchpad project is here:  https://launchpad.net/network-service
>>
>> I want to discuss teams and core team membership at first meeting
tomorrow.
>> I can create the same team structure we have for the other projects,
and we
>> can just discuss core-dev, if the group wants.
>>
>> I want to really jump start things, but I am anxious to not step on
any
>> toes or leave anyone out.  Just let me know how much you want me to
do.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Rick
>>
>
>
>


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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Jordan Rinke]

Linux Kernel:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=linux+kernel+forum 5
million results
Apache: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=apache+forum
23 million results

I am sure at least one or two of those are active forums.

LinuxQuestions.org is a good example, it is a forum that is based around
questions and topics are marked as solved when they are and it ranges from
newbie questions to fairly advanced stuff.

I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for
a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great)
but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific
question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a place for random
discussion, but that can also specifically answer a question as well.

77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses)


-Original Message-
From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 8:59 AM
To: Jordan Rinke
Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Jordan Rinke wrote:
> Can anyone name a large successful project that either doesn't have an 
> official forum, or that multiple unofficial forums haven't sprung up
around?

The Linux Kernel ? Apache HTTPD ? Most projects that have forums are
end-user-oriented, not sysadmin-oriented.

> Also, I looked and phpbb has a mod that allows marking topics as 
> solved, selecting a post as the answer and also giving posts solve 
> ratings so I think that is a good combination of both worlds (and we 
> could tweak expand on the concept if needed)

That doesn't solve the duplication of questions which usually plague forums.

In the end, it all depends on what you're after. If you want a place for
random people to randomly discuss OpenStack, then a forum system is
definitely the good answer. If you want an area where to ask questions and
find answers, then a stackexchange-type site is what you need. Using one to
do the other is a recipe for pain.

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack


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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Jordan Rinke]

The vmware communities are another good example, they are forum-ish in that
they are sorted by categories with optional tags but have topics with the
ability to mark questions as answered etc.

-Original Message-
From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 8:59 AM
To: Jordan Rinke
Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Jordan Rinke wrote:
> Can anyone name a large successful project that either doesn't have an 
> official forum, or that multiple unofficial forums haven't sprung up
around?

The Linux Kernel ? Apache HTTPD ? Most projects that have forums are
end-user-oriented, not sysadmin-oriented.

> Also, I looked and phpbb has a mod that allows marking topics as 
> solved, selecting a post as the answer and also giving posts solve 
> ratings so I think that is a good combination of both worlds (and we 
> could tweak expand on the concept if needed)

That doesn't solve the duplication of questions which usually plague forums.

In the end, it all depends on what you're after. If you want a place for
random people to randomly discuss OpenStack, then a forum system is
definitely the good answer. If you want an area where to ask questions and
find answers, then a stackexchange-type site is what you need. Using one to
do the other is a recipe for pain.

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack


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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Rick Clark]

a few comments about a forum:

+ While I agree with Thierry that most end user apps have forums, some 
SA/Dev oriented software also have forums.


+ I think there is a need for a place where people can ask simple 
questions they would not feel comfortable asking on the ML.


- Forums are very labor intensive, we need to ensure that we actually 
have people to do the work


- the successful forums tend to be in communities that number in the 
hundreds of thousands or millions.


-+ Devs tend not to participate, but that is ok.  They don't have to, if 
you have a robust user community, which I am not sure we do, yet.


+ it's ok to try and fail.  If there are people like Jordan that want to 
do the work and start up a forum, I say let them.  We just need to watch 
it and be prepared to shut it down if it is not succeeding.


!!!Please do not try to combine the forums with the mailing list. It is 
ok to have different communication channels for different groups.


+1 to a stack exchange type of forum.


On 05/03/2011 08:59 AM, Thierry Carrez wrote:

Jordan Rinke wrote:

Can anyone name a large successful project that either doesn't have an
official forum, or that multiple unofficial forums haven't sprung up around?


The Linux Kernel ? Apache HTTPD ? Most projects that have forums are
end-user-oriented, not sysadmin-oriented.


Also, I looked and phpbb has a mod that allows marking topics as solved,
selecting a post as the answer and also giving posts solve ratings so I
think that is a good combination of both worlds (and we could tweak expand
on the concept if needed)


That doesn't solve the duplication of questions which usually plague forums.

In the end, it all depends on what you're after. If you want a place for
random people to randomly discuss OpenStack, then a forum system is
definitely the good answer. If you want an area where to ask questions
and find answers, then a stackexchange-type site is what you need. Using
one to do the other is a recipe for pain.




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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Thierry Carrez]

Jordan Rinke wrote:
> I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for
> a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great)
> but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific
> question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a place for random
> discussion, but that can also specifically answer a question as well.

If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums
in the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it
relies on a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong
(or outdated) technical answers and user frustration.

They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a
huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable
and continuously-updated source of information.

I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a
better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore
forums (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the
stackexchange site (since they are an easy way to contribute reference
information).

> 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses)

I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on
a binary poll.

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack

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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Jordan Rinke]

Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find
useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs
at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent
point). 

We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the
survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth).

-Original Message-
From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM
To: Jordan Rinke
Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Jordan Rinke wrote:
> I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is 
> great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked 
> looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to 
> ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a 
> place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a
question as well.

If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in
the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies on
a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or outdated)
technical answers and user frustration.

They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a
huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable and
continuously-updated source of information.

I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a
better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums
(since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site
(since they are an easy way to contribute reference information).

> 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses)

I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a
binary poll.

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack


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Re: [Openstack] Openstack Network service wiki and meeting

[Dan Wendlandt]

Hi Alex,

Great to hear that you're getting resources lined up!  Other folks are still
figuring out exactly what resources they will be able to contribute as well,
which is why we're still planning on waiting until 5/10 for the actual
discussion of what dev tasks various people will pick off and start coding.


I know Rick wanted to discuss some logistical issues (teams, etc.) to help
get the ball rolling on launchpad.  He is the expert on what is needed to
get a project up and running on launchpad, so I will defer to him on whether
there is useful progress we can make even though some folks have yet to
figure out who they will be committing to the project.  Rick?

Dan


On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 7:05 AM, Alex Neefus  wrote:

> Dan/Rick -
>
> Have we decided if there is a meeting today (5/3)?
>
>  From my perspective I prefer a delay until 5/10 as originally
> discussed. We are working internally at my company to assign resources
> to this effort.
>
> Alex
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: openstack-bounces+alex=mellanox@lists.launchpad.net
> [mailto:openstack-bounces+alex=mellanox@lists.launchpad.net] On
> Behalf Of Rick Clark
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 2:29 PM
> To: Dan Wendlandt
> Cc: Jamey Meredith; Lew Tucker (letucker); Michael Smith (michsmit);
> openst...@lab.ntt.co.jp; openstack@lists.launchpad.net; Somik Behera;
> Ewan Mellor; Youcef Laribi
> Subject: Re: [Openstack] Openstack Network service wiki and meeting
>
> On 05/02/2011 01:19 PM, Dan Wendlandt wrote:
> > Thanks Rick,
> >
> > CC'ing the openstack-list, based on Vish's request that all openstack
> > networking discussion be on the main list until we get too chatty and
> people
> > want to boot us off :)
>
> I was planning to forward it to the list as well.  That's where we need
> to be.  But we need to make sure that everyone understands that we are
> not implying any project status in Openstack and that we will be
> following the process that the PPB approved to request project status.
>
> > I'm as eager as you are to keep the momentum going, but I believe that
> > during the session on Friday we had agreed that the first networking
> meeting
> > would be a week from tuesday (5/10), not this tuesday (5/3).  This
> will give
> > people time to create/review a proposed set of development-oriented
> > blueprints based on friday's list and sync up with their internal
> teams
> > about what resources they would contribute, etc (these blueprints
> still need
> > to be created).  It will also let people who weren't at the Friday
> meeting
> > get an understanding of what we plan on working on and if they want to
> be
> > involved.
>
> I couldn't remember and my notes were enigmatic at best.  Could we still
>
> meet just to figure out how we want to setup teams and seed the core-dev
>
> teams?  It should not take long.
>
>
> > Dan
> >
> > On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Rick Clark
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello all,
> >> I have created some wiki space and a meeting header and agenda
> template for
> >> the network service projects.
> >>
> >> http://wiki.openstack.org/Network/
> >> http://wiki.openstack.org/Network/Meetings
> >>
> >> Please start filling in the main page with data and links to the
> various
> >> documents we've created.
> >>
> >>
> >> The Launchpad project is here:  https://launchpad.net/network-service
> >>
> >> I want to discuss teams and core team membership at first meeting
> tomorrow.
> >> I can create the same team structure we have for the other projects,
> and we
> >> can just discuss core-dev, if the group wants.
> >>
> >> I want to really jump start things, but I am anxious to not step on
> any
> >> toes or leave anyone out.  Just let me know how much you want me to
> do.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Rick
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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~~~
Dan Wendlandt
Nicira Networks, Inc.
www.nicira.com | www.openvswitch.org
Sr. Product Manager
cell: 650-906-2650
~~~
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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Everett Toews]

I believe that should be http://askubuntu.com/

Everett

On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Jordan Rinke  wrote:

> Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find
> useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs
> at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent
> point).
>
> We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the
> survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth).
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM
> To: Jordan Rinke
> Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
>
> Jordan Rinke wrote:
> > I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is
> > great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked
> > looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to
> > ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a
> > place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a
> question as well.
>
> If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in
> the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies
> on
> a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or
> outdated)
> technical answers and user frustration.
>
> They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a
> huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable
> and
> continuously-updated source of information.
>
> I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a
> better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums
> (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site
> (since they are an easy way to contribute reference information).
>
> > 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses)
>
> I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a
> binary poll.
>
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
> Release Manager, OpenStack
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Rick Clark]

On 05/03/2011 09:36 AM, Jordan Rinke wrote:

Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find
useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs
at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent
point).


I think there is much useful information on the Ubuntu forums, but it is 
laced with incorrect information too.  Most technical people can easily 
discern which is which and I think our users will be more technical than 
the average Ubuntu user.



I think over all it is good to have a non-dev forum.

it is worth mentioning that our dev community and culture differs from 
Ubuntu.  Ubuntu devs completely ignore Launchpad answers, while our 
Answers section is well used and responded to.  Perhaps we shouldn't 
make assumptions based on Ubuntu.




We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the
survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth).

-Original Message-
From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM
To: Jordan Rinke
Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Jordan Rinke wrote:

I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is
great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked
looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to
ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a
place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a

question as well.

If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in
the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies on
a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or outdated)
technical answers and user frustration.

They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a
huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable and
continuously-updated source of information.

I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a
better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums
(since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site
(since they are an easy way to contribute reference information).


77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses)


I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a
binary poll.

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)
Release Manager, OpenStack


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Re: [Openstack] Do we need SSL on nova-api ports?

[Edward Konetzko]

On 05/03/2011 06:39 AM, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:


On 3 May 2011, at 13:30, Todd Willey wrote:


On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 5:39 AM, Dirk-Willem van Gulik
  wrote:


On 3 May 2011, at 10:31, Soren Hansen wrote:


2011/5/3 Todd Willey:

In a heavily load-balanced environment you'll probably want to terminate SSL 
before it gets
proxied to the actual api servers,


Why is that? It seems like a win to distribute as much processing as
possible, including SSL termination?


Because most load balancing vendors are either 1) convinced that they need to 
go up the stack and have gradually made it impossible to do blind socket LB - 
and insist on looking at headers and what not, or 2) is soo far out of touch 
and old that blind socket forwarding is not overly practical as the outdated 
means to inform the LB what to blindly forward where is just too painful.


I was thinking of hardware acceleration.


Aye, Agreed - though these days - once the intial DSA/RSA negotiation is done - 
the rest is getting less and less painful[1] in modern environments - and give 
its very cloudy nature - quite likely distributed with enough CPU spare cycles.



But yes - a bright vendor/standard would indeed do a clever pass through to the 
distributed boxes for at least the initial exchange; optionally facilitate 
session sharing and/or providing it in-line and after the exchange it could be 
informed of the session key and then do a bit more than just blind forwarding.

Dw.


Dw.

1: http://www.imperialviolet.org/2010/06/25/overclocking-ssl.html


How about nova-api does not get ssl/tls support but there is a reference 
way of setting up apache/nginx to be used as the web server for nova-api?


I would much rather have the ability to run the api behind a web server 
that has the ability load modules to do whatever an end users wants e.g. 
ssl.


To answers Sorens earlier question basically think of it this way ssl 
offload at the lb is needed if you have a layer 7 lb and want to use its 
fancy tricks.  I have seen software based lbs do ssl offload at numbers 
that would probably make some of the hardware lb guys worry.


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Re: [Openstack] lunr reference iSCSI target driver

[Jagane Sundar]

Hello Mike, Tomo:

I invite you to take a look at Livebackup for kvm:

http://wiki.qemu.org/Features/Livebackup

This is a feature that I am currently developing. In brief, livebackup
enables full and incremental backups of running VMs.
It has enhancements to qemu that enable it to keep an in-memory
dirty blocks bitmap. The advantage of this approach is that you never
have to calculate hashes in order to determine which blocks are dirty.

Livebackup includes a rudimentary network protocol for transferring
the dirty blocks over to a backup server. The client livebackup_client
can be used to connect to the running VM, create a livebackup
snapshot - this is a special purpose snapshot that tracks the state
of all disks of a virtual machine at the time of snapshot, and then
creates a COW file of blocks that the VM modifies during the
snapshot.

My intent is to develop this in qemu/qemu-kvm, then add support
in libvirt if necessary, and then build support for this in Openstack.
At that point Openstack will be in a position to offer three types of
VMs:
1. ephemeral VMs with virtual disks that can be lost if the
VM server's hard disk dies,
2. Fully highly available external storage (NAS or SAN) based
VMs
3. Hourly backuped up VMs - livebackup_client running on another
   VM server can be utilized to backup the VM every hour, and
   the VM can be re-started from the backup if the primary VM
   server dies.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Jagane

On 5/3/2011 3:05 AM, FUJITA Tomonori wrote:

Thanks for the explanation!

On Mon, 2 May 2011 21:12:22 -0700
Michael Barton  wrote:


What I've been playing with is having a manifest that contains hashes
of (4mb) chunks for the volume's backups.  When a user initiates a new
backup, dm-snapshot does its thing and gives me a block device.  I
read and hash chunks from that block device and compare them to the
manifest, uploading any that differ to Swift, then update the manifest
with the new backup.

Ah, you read and hash chunks from the "whole" block device. I
misunderstood the point.


The restore uses fuse with some basic bitmap logic to lazy load chunks
from Swift on demand, plus a background thread that fills them in
autonomously.  I've been pretty happy with fuse's performance and
stability (python-fuse that is; fusepy is really slow).

You create a loopback device of the fuse file and set up a dm-snap
device by using it, right?

Tomo

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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Anne Gentle]

Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :)

A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need for
community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the types
of questions in Launchpad Answers.

I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good timing
to start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong guides.
Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful and
responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job
responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But it's
not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being responsive,
right?

I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's
more about the community and people than a tool. The responses here seem to
indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like the
Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates
participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw for
them to be a "Top Network Site" like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly not
open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability of a
standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That info
might help with the tools discussion.

My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't have
empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who will
be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the
tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support
site once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping
others.

So that's my current thinking.
Anne



On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke  wrote:

> Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find
> useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs
> at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent
> point).
>
> We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the
> survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth).
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM
> To: Jordan Rinke
> Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
>
> Jordan Rinke wrote:
> > I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is
> > great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked
> > looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to
> > ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a
> > place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a
> question as well.
>
> If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in
> the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies
> on
> a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or
> outdated)
> technical answers and user frustration.
>
> They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a
> huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable
> and
> continuously-updated source of information.
>
> I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a
> better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums
> (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site
> (since they are an easy way to contribute reference information).
>
> > 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses)
>
> I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a
> binary poll.
>
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
> Release Manager, OpenStack
>
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack
> Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net
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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Lorin Hochstein]

Anne:

Somebody (several people?) have mentioned OSQA as a free Stack Exchange clone.  
We're running it internally at ISI, it works fairly well. It's a django app. 

Shapado is another (Ruby-based) Stack Exchange clone.

Lorin
--
Lorin Hochstein, Computer Scientist
USC Information Sciences Institute
703.812.3710
http://www.east.isi.edu/~lorin

On May 3, 2011, at 12:48 PM, Anne Gentle wrote:

> Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :)
> 
> A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need for 
> community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the types of 
> questions in Launchpad Answers. 
> 
> I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good timing to 
> start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong guides. 
> Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful and 
> responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job 
> responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But it's 
> not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being responsive, 
> right?
> 
> I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's more 
> about the community and people than a tool. The responses here seem to 
> indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like the 
> Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates 
> participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw for 
> them to be a "Top Network Site" like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly not 
> open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability of a 
> standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That info 
> might help with the tools discussion.
> 
> My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't have 
> empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who will 
> be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the 
> tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support site 
> once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping others. 
> 
> So that's my current thinking. 
> Anne
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke  wrote:
> Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find
> useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering devs
> at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an excellent
> point).
> 
> We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the
> survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth).
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM
> To: Jordan Rinke
> Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
> Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
> 
> Jordan Rinke wrote:
> > I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is
> > great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked
> > looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to
> > ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a
> > place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a
> question as well.
> 
> If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in
> the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies on
> a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or outdated)
> technical answers and user frustration.
> 
> They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a
> huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable and
> continuously-updated source of information.
> 
> I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a
> better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore forums
> (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site
> (since they are an easy way to contribute reference information).
> 
> > 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses)
> 
> I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a
> binary poll.
> 
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
> Release Manager, OpenStack
> 
> 
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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Everett Toews]

Regarding your StackExchange questions Anne.

For an Open Source StackExchange-like site OSQA (http://www.osqa.net/) could
be used.

For StackExchange itself it's free as in beer (
http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq).

"How much does Stack Exchange cost?

Creating a Stack Exchange site is free. Using a Stack Exchange site is
free. The Creative Commons licenseguarantees that questions and answers are
free to access, free to use and re-use (with attribution), and free to
share… forever."

Everett

On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Anne Gentle  wrote:

> Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :)
>
> A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need for
> community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the types
> of questions in Launchpad Answers.
>
> I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good timing
> to start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong guides.
> Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful and
> responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job
> responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But it's
> not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being responsive,
> right?
>
> I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's
> more about the community and people than a tool. The responses here seem to
> indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like the
> Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates
> participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw for
> them to be a "Top Network Site" like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly not
> open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability of a
> standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That info
> might help with the tools discussion.
>
> My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't have
> empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who will
> be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the
> tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support
> site once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping
> others.
>
> So that's my current thinking.
> Anne
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke  wrote:
>
>> Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find
>> useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering
>> devs
>> at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an
>> excellent
>> point).
>>
>> We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on
>> the
>> survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth).
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM
>> To: Jordan Rinke
>> Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
>> Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
>>
>> Jordan Rinke wrote:
>> > I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is
>> > great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked
>> > looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to
>> > ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a
>> > place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a
>> question as well.
>>
>> If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in
>> the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies
>> on
>> a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or
>> outdated)
>> technical answers and user frustration.
>>
>> They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a
>> huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable
>> and
>> continuously-updated source of information.
>>
>> I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a
>> better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore
>> forums
>> (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site
>> (since they are an easy way to contribute reference information).
>>
>> > 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses)
>>
>> I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a
>> binary poll.
>>
>> --
>> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
>> Release Manager, OpenStack
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
>
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Re: [Openstack] Do we need SSL on nova-api ports?

[Richard Hartmann]

On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 08:09, Dirk-Willem van Gulik
 wrote:

> a)      Make SSL only the default (ideally with client cert on as well).

Sounds good to me.


> b)      Postulate that one port lower there is an optional HTTP port (OFF, or 
> tied to localhost).

The IETF _strongly_ prefers STARTTLS over separate TLS/non-TLS ports.
If you ever want to get an IANA assignment, you are pretty much
required to support STARTTLS unless you are working with legacy
protocols.


Using STARTTLS and requiring TLS by default seems like a good option
for the medium term, to me.


Richard

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Re: [Openstack] Do we need SSL on nova-api ports?

[Dirk-WIllem van Gulik]

On 3 May 2011, at 18:49, Richard Hartmann wrote:

> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 08:09, Dirk-Willem van Gulik
>  wrote:
> 
> > a)  Make SSL only the default (ideally with client cert on as well).
> 
> Sounds good to me.
> 
> > b)  Postulate that one port lower there is an optional HTTP port (OFF, 
> > or tied to localhost).
> 
> The IETF _strongly_ prefers STARTTLS over separate TLS/non-TLS ports.
> If you ever want to get an IANA assignment, you are pretty much
> required to support STARTTLS unless you are working with legacy
> protocols.
> 
Actally - that is a very good point for anything non REST/http.
> Using STARTTLS and requiring TLS by default seems like a good option
> for the medium term, to me.
> 
Right - but I think it is fair to assume that any IAB concerns would only apply 
to two way chatty protocols. A pure 'rest' one-shot stateless protocol would 
not be burdened with a STARTTLS and all the risks that entails.

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Re: [Openstack] Openstack Network service wiki and meeting

[Rick Clark]

Hi Alex,

The meeting today is just to discuss Launchpad setup and infrastructure 
needs, so we can be ready to hit the ground running.  There will be no 
technical discussions or decisions made.  I hope you can attend and give 
your input.



Rick

On 05/03/2011 10:02 AM, Dan Wendlandt wrote:

Hi Alex,

Great to hear that you're getting resources lined up!  Other folks are still
figuring out exactly what resources they will be able to contribute as well,
which is why we're still planning on waiting until 5/10 for the actual
discussion of what dev tasks various people will pick off and start coding.


I know Rick wanted to discuss some logistical issues (teams, etc.) to help
get the ball rolling on launchpad.  He is the expert on what is needed to
get a project up and running on launchpad, so I will defer to him on whether
there is useful progress we can make even though some folks have yet to
figure out who they will be committing to the project.  Rick?

Dan


On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 7:05 AM, Alex Neefus  wrote:


Dan/Rick -

Have we decided if there is a meeting today (5/3)?

  From my perspective I prefer a delay until 5/10 as originally
discussed. We are working internally at my company to assign resources
to this effort.

Alex



-Original Message-
From: openstack-bounces+alex=mellanox@lists.launchpad.net
[mailto:openstack-bounces+alex=mellanox@lists.launchpad.net] On
Behalf Of Rick Clark
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 2:29 PM
To: Dan Wendlandt
Cc: Jamey Meredith; Lew Tucker (letucker); Michael Smith (michsmit);
openst...@lab.ntt.co.jp; openstack@lists.launchpad.net; Somik Behera;
Ewan Mellor; Youcef Laribi
Subject: Re: [Openstack] Openstack Network service wiki and meeting

On 05/02/2011 01:19 PM, Dan Wendlandt wrote:

Thanks Rick,

CC'ing the openstack-list, based on Vish's request that all openstack
networking discussion be on the main list until we get too chatty and

people

want to boot us off :)


I was planning to forward it to the list as well.  That's where we need
to be.  But we need to make sure that everyone understands that we are
not implying any project status in Openstack and that we will be
following the process that the PPB approved to request project status.


I'm as eager as you are to keep the momentum going, but I believe that
during the session on Friday we had agreed that the first networking

meeting

would be a week from tuesday (5/10), not this tuesday (5/3).  This

will give

people time to create/review a proposed set of development-oriented
blueprints based on friday's list and sync up with their internal

teams

about what resources they would contribute, etc (these blueprints

still need

to be created).  It will also let people who weren't at the Friday

meeting

get an understanding of what we plan on working on and if they want to

be

involved.


I couldn't remember and my notes were enigmatic at best.  Could we still

meet just to figure out how we want to setup teams and seed the core-dev

teams?  It should not take long.



Dan

On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Rick Clark

wrote:



Hello all,
I have created some wiki space and a meeting header and agenda

template for

the network service projects.

http://wiki.openstack.org/Network/
http://wiki.openstack.org/Network/Meetings

Please start filling in the main page with data and links to the

various

documents we've created.


The Launchpad project is here:  https://launchpad.net/network-service

I want to discuss teams and core team membership at first meeting

tomorrow.

I can create the same team structure we have for the other projects,

and we

can just discuss core-dev, if the group wants.

I want to really jump start things, but I am anxious to not step on

any

toes or leave anyone out.  Just let me know how much you want me to

do.


Cheers,

Rick








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Re: [Openstack] Do we need SSL on nova-api ports?

[Vishvananda Ishaya]

I don't really see any reason for production apps to run on anything other than 
80/443.  In dev mode it is nice to have other ports, but I don't really see a 
reason for special ports in production systems.

Vish

On May 3, 2011, at 10:49 AM, Richard Hartmann wrote:

> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 08:09, Dirk-Willem van Gulik
>  wrote:
> 
>> a)  Make SSL only the default (ideally with client cert on as well).
> 
> Sounds good to me.
> 
> 
>> b)  Postulate that one port lower there is an optional HTTP port (OFF, 
>> or tied to localhost).
> 
> The IETF _strongly_ prefers STARTTLS over separate TLS/non-TLS ports.
> If you ever want to get an IANA assignment, you are pretty much
> required to support STARTTLS unless you are working with legacy
> protocols.
> 
> 
> Using STARTTLS and requiring TLS by default seems like a good option
> for the medium term, to me.
> 
> 
> Richard
> 
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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Richard Hartmann]

On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 11:24, Thierry Carrez  wrote:

> A forum is almost always the wrong solution when we talk about a
> developer/technical subject. In my experience it always ended up
> fragmenting the community between developers (who don't read the forums)
> and users (who don't read the rest).

Agreed. I don't know of any technical forums that are really worth visiting.


> The solution for your problem is not a forum. It's a stackexchange-type
> site. Then questions can be edited, de-duplicated and the good answer
> wins, with a karma-based meritocracy that ensures self-administration.

As weird as this may be, karma-based systems seem to be rather
effective as gathering karma becomes a goal in and as of itself. As
long as that improves the overall experience, there is nothing wrong
with this, though.


> So my suggestion is:
> Set up a stackexchange-type site, drop LP Answers.

Alternatively, stackexchange itself could be used. Personally, I don't
care either way about the implementation; the underlying concept are
what counts.


Richard

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Re: [Openstack] Openstack Network service wiki and meeting

[John Purrier]

Rick, we have set up a top level LP project "futurestack" and moved all of
the associated but not official projects to be children of this. Feel free
to link the new network projects here if you want, it allows us to have a
single LP spot to go to in order to see the activity on these projects.

John

-Original Message-
From: openstack-bounces+john=openstack@lists.launchpad.net
[mailto:openstack-bounces+john=openstack@lists.launchpad.net] On Behalf
Of Rick Clark
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:05 PM
To: Dan Wendlandt
Cc: Jamey Meredith; Lew Tucker (letucker); Michael Smith (michsmit);
openst...@lab.ntt.co.jp; openstack@lists.launchpad.net; Ewan Mellor; Somik
Behera; Youcef Laribi
Subject: Re: [Openstack] Openstack Network service wiki and meeting

Hi Alex,

The meeting today is just to discuss Launchpad setup and infrastructure 
needs, so we can be ready to hit the ground running.  There will be no 
technical discussions or decisions made.  I hope you can attend and give 
your input.


Rick

On 05/03/2011 10:02 AM, Dan Wendlandt wrote:
> Hi Alex,
>
> Great to hear that you're getting resources lined up!  Other folks are
still
> figuring out exactly what resources they will be able to contribute as
well,
> which is why we're still planning on waiting until 5/10 for the actual
> discussion of what dev tasks various people will pick off and start
coding.
>
>
> I know Rick wanted to discuss some logistical issues (teams, etc.) to help
> get the ball rolling on launchpad.  He is the expert on what is needed to
> get a project up and running on launchpad, so I will defer to him on
whether
> there is useful progress we can make even though some folks have yet to
> figure out who they will be committing to the project.  Rick?
>
> Dan
>
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 7:05 AM, Alex Neefus  wrote:
>
>> Dan/Rick -
>>
>> Have we decided if there is a meeting today (5/3)?
>>
>>   From my perspective I prefer a delay until 5/10 as originally
>> discussed. We are working internally at my company to assign resources
>> to this effort.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: openstack-bounces+alex=mellanox@lists.launchpad.net
>> [mailto:openstack-bounces+alex=mellanox@lists.launchpad.net] On
>> Behalf Of Rick Clark
>> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 2:29 PM
>> To: Dan Wendlandt
>> Cc: Jamey Meredith; Lew Tucker (letucker); Michael Smith (michsmit);
>> openst...@lab.ntt.co.jp; openstack@lists.launchpad.net; Somik Behera;
>> Ewan Mellor; Youcef Laribi
>> Subject: Re: [Openstack] Openstack Network service wiki and meeting
>>
>> On 05/02/2011 01:19 PM, Dan Wendlandt wrote:
>>> Thanks Rick,
>>>
>>> CC'ing the openstack-list, based on Vish's request that all openstack
>>> networking discussion be on the main list until we get too chatty and
>> people
>>> want to boot us off :)
>>
>> I was planning to forward it to the list as well.  That's where we need
>> to be.  But we need to make sure that everyone understands that we are
>> not implying any project status in Openstack and that we will be
>> following the process that the PPB approved to request project status.
>>
>>> I'm as eager as you are to keep the momentum going, but I believe that
>>> during the session on Friday we had agreed that the first networking
>> meeting
>>> would be a week from tuesday (5/10), not this tuesday (5/3).  This
>> will give
>>> people time to create/review a proposed set of development-oriented
>>> blueprints based on friday's list and sync up with their internal
>> teams
>>> about what resources they would contribute, etc (these blueprints
>> still need
>>> to be created).  It will also let people who weren't at the Friday
>> meeting
>>> get an understanding of what we plan on working on and if they want to
>> be
>>> involved.
>>
>> I couldn't remember and my notes were enigmatic at best.  Could we still
>>
>> meet just to figure out how we want to setup teams and seed the core-dev
>>
>> teams?  It should not take long.
>>
>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Rick Clark
>> wrote:
>>>
 Hello all,
 I have created some wiki space and a meeting header and agenda
>> template for
 the network service projects.

 http://wiki.openstack.org/Network/
 http://wiki.openstack.org/Network/Meetings

 Please start filling in the main page with data and links to the
>> various
 documents we've created.


 The Launchpad project is here:  https://launchpad.net/network-service

 I want to discuss teams and core team membership at first meeting
>> tomorrow.
 I can create the same team structure we have for the other projects,
>> and we
 can just discuss core-dev, if the group wants.

 I want to really jump start things, but I am anxious to not step on
>> any
 toes or leave anyone out.  Just let me know how much you want me to
>> do.

 Cheers,

 Rick

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Maili

Re: [Openstack] lunr reference iSCSI target driver

[Josh Durgin]

On 05/02/2011 01:46 PM, Chuck Thier wrote:

This leads to another interesting question.  While our reference
implementation may not directly expose snapshot functionality, I imagine
other storage implementations could want to. I'm interested to hear what use
cases others would be interested in with snapshots.  The obvious ones are
things like creating a volume based on a snapshot, or rolling a volume back
to a previous snapshot.  I would like others' input here to shape what the
snapshot API might look like.


For RBD we only need the obvious ones:
- create/list/remove snapshots
- create volume from a snapshot
- rollback to a snapshot

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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Jordan Rinke]

Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums!

http://forums.openstack.org

Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the forum 
etc.

-Original Message-
From: "Everett Toews" 
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:22pm
To: "Anne Gentle" 
Cc: "Jordan Rinke" , openstack@lists.launchpad.net
Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Regarding your StackExchange questions Anne.

For an Open Source StackExchange-like site OSQA (http://www.osqa.net/) could
be used.

For StackExchange itself it's free as in beer (
http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq).

"How much does Stack Exchange cost?

Creating a Stack Exchange site is free. Using a Stack Exchange site is
free. The Creative Commons licenseguarantees that questions and answers are
free to access, free to use and re-use (with attribution), and free to
share… forever."

Everett

On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Anne Gentle  wrote:

> Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :)
>
> A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need for
> community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the types
> of questions in Launchpad Answers.
>
> I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good timing
> to start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong guides.
> Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful and
> responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job
> responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But it's
> not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being responsive,
> right?
>
> I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's
> more about the community and people than a tool. The responses here seem to
> indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like the
> Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates
> participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw for
> them to be a "Top Network Site" like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly not
> open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability of a
> standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That info
> might help with the tools discussion.
>
> My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't have
> empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who will
> be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the
> tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support
> site once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping
> others.
>
> So that's my current thinking.
> Anne
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke  wrote:
>
>> Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find
>> useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering
>> devs
>> at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an
>> excellent
>> point).
>>
>> We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on
>> the
>> survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth).
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM
>> To: Jordan Rinke
>> Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
>> Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
>>
>> Jordan Rinke wrote:
>> > I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is
>> > great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked
>> > looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to
>> > ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a
>> > place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a
>> question as well.
>>
>> If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related forums in
>> the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it relies
>> on
>> a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or
>> outdated)
>> technical answers and user frustration.
>>
>> They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is a
>> huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a valuable
>> and
>> continuously-updated source of information.
>>
>> I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is a
>> better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore
>> forums
>> (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange site
>> (since they are an easy way to contribute reference information).
>>
>> > 77.8% voting for a forum at this point (out of 18 responses)
>>
>> I would wait on Anne's answer before taking any hasty decision based on a
>> binary poll.
>>
>> --
>> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
>> Release Manager, OpenStack
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Post

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Michael Shuler]

On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote:
> Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums!
> 
> http://forums.openstack.org
> 
> Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the 
> forum etc.

phpBB is a poor choice of forum software, IMO.

-- 
Michael

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[Openstack] Bare metal provisioning group

[Lorin Hochstein]

At the Diablo summit, there were several people who expressed interest in using 
OpenStack to do bare-metal provisioning of nodes as an alternative to 
virtualization. We're using this approach at ISI to support Tilera hardware. 
Our implementation is Tilera-specific, but we'd like to build a more general 
solution so people could use it for other backends, and to support interfacing 
with existing provisioning solutions such as xCat, Perceus, and Heckle.

I've set up a group on Launchpad with a mailing list for those who are 
interested in this type of functionality to discuss backends.

Web page: https://launchpad.net/~nova-bare-metal
Mailing list: nova-bare-me...@lists.launchpad.net

Take care,

Lorin
--
Lorin Hochstein, Computer Scientist
USC Information Sciences Institute
703.812.3710
http://www.east.isi.edu/~lorin

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Re: [Openstack] Bare metal provisioning group

[Vishvananda Ishaya]

+1 on this. It is a very cool feature and I hope we can eventually support it.

Vish

On May 3, 2011, at 1:52 PM, Lorin Hochstein wrote:

> At the Diablo summit, there were several people who expressed interest in 
> using OpenStack to do bare-metal provisioning of nodes as an alternative to 
> virtualization. We're using this approach at ISI to support Tilera hardware. 
> Our implementation is Tilera-specific, but we'd like to build a more general 
> solution so people could use it for other backends, and to support 
> interfacing with existing provisioning solutions such as xCat, Perceus, and 
> Heckle.
> 
> I've set up a group on Launchpad with a mailing list for those who are 
> interested in this type of functionality to discuss backends.
> 
> Web page: https://launchpad.net/~nova-bare-metal
> Mailing list: nova-bare-me...@lists.launchpad.net
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Lorin
> --
> Lorin Hochstein, Computer Scientist
> USC Information Sciences Institute
> 703.812.3710
> http://www.east.isi.edu/~lorin
> 
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Re: [Openstack] Bare metal provisioning group

[Rob_Hirschfeld]

+1 - I'm going to write-up a blue print so we can formalize the discussion by 
EOW.

The first pass will be based on what we've done with Crowbar (to be Apache 2) 
with some idea of an API to generalize discovery.

Lorin: I'd be happy to discuss w/ you in advance so we can compare notes.

Rob Hirschfeld
@zehicle


From: openstack-bounces+rob_hirschfeld=dell@lists.launchpad.net 
[mailto:openstack-bounces+rob_hirschfeld=dell@lists.launchpad.net] On 
Behalf Of Vishvananda Ishaya
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:19 PM
To: Lorin Hochstein
Cc: Openstack
Subject: Re: [Openstack] Bare metal provisioning group

+1 on this. It is a very cool feature and I hope we can eventually support it.

Vish

On May 3, 2011, at 1:52 PM, Lorin Hochstein wrote:


At the Diablo summit, there were several people who expressed interest in using 
OpenStack to do bare-metal provisioning of nodes as an alternative to 
virtualization. We're using this approach at ISI to support Tilera hardware. 
Our implementation is Tilera-specific, but we'd like to build a more general 
solution so people could use it for other backends, and to support interfacing 
with existing provisioning solutions such as xCat, Perceus, and Heckle.

I've set up a group on Launchpad with a mailing list for those who are 
interested in this type of functionality to discuss backends.

Web page: https://launchpad.net/~nova-bare-metal
Mailing list: 
nova-bare-me...@lists.launchpad.net

Take care,

Lorin
--
Lorin Hochstein, Computer Scientist
USC Information Sciences Institute
703.812.3710
http://www.east.isi.edu/~lorin

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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Daniel Salinas]

This is awesome!!!  Now we can spend 3 weeks debating about forum
software.  I like vbulletin.

On 5/3/11 3:32 PM, "Michael Shuler"  wrote:

>On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote:
>> Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums!
>> 
>> http://forums.openstack.org
>> 
>> Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about
>>the forum etc.
>
>phpBB is a poor choice of forum software, IMO.
>
>-- 
>Michael
>
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[Openstack] Discussion on October Design Summit Locations

[Stephen Spector]

Team:

As we all are interested in where the next event is located I thought I
would send out a recap of the meeting I had last week at the Design Summit:
> * October 2011 Event ­ We will again run a Conference and Design Summit the
> first week of October which is 2 weeks after the Diablo Release
>> * The developers are all in agreement that having the business development
>> folks is a plus
>> * There was a discussion on holding the event during code freeze of Diablo
>> but there are many complications to this idea
>> * The event will be held in the US; looking at New York, Orlando, Boston
>> * GOAL: Look at various options and have a facility chosen in late May ;
>> Planning will start in June
>> * Event Projection ­ This could easily be a 700+ person event with about 200
>> to 300 developers
> * 2012 Events 
>> * OpenStack User Event & Design Summit (April 2012)
>>> * Run a large User Event with the Design Summit running 1 or 2 days after
>>> start of User Event
>>> * Hold an exhibit hall for sponsors to promote their solutions to users
>>> * Event Projection -  this could be a 1,000 to 2,000 person event based on
>>> how we promote, location we choose, etc
>>> * More discussion needed and location/date selection needs to occur this
>>> summer
>> * OpenStack Conference and Design Summit  (October 2012)
>>> * Target Europe or Asia for this event
> Finally, the marketing of the Conference and Design Summit needs more effort
> to clarify the Conference part being for the Ecosystem partners. I will work
> on this for our October event.
Location ­ I was thinking about New York, Montreal, Boston, Washington, D.C,
Orlando, etc and am focusing on Boston as it is a large technical hub
similar to Silicon Valley and believe we should continue to take advantage
of the local community of technologists to continue growing the event and
promote OpenStack. As for Europe, the consensus in the room was that we
don't have too many developers in Europe at this time and almost everyone
would need to travel which would increase costs across the community as well
as limit the number of developers who could attend as many companies are not
allowing international travel.

I agree that holding the event in Japan would be optimal and that was the
original plan; however, we have some difficulties with high costs in Japan
and local event sponsorship at this time. The community in Japan is growing
but is not yet ready to put on an event. South Korea is another option;
however everyone will need to travel again and costs will be higher than the
US. Finally, Hawaii sounds great until you see the cost of a Diet Coke in a
hotel ­ it is just too expensive.

Please feel free to add your thoughts on this discussion. Thanks

- - - 
Stephen Spector, Rackspace
OpenStack Community Manager
stephen.spec...@openstack.org
OpenStack Blog   | @opnstk_
 com 
_mgr 
Office  +1 (512) 539-1162 | Mobile +1 (210) 415-0930


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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Paul Voccio]

Are these really the "official" openstack forums? I didn't get the
impression that this was settled. Didn't we bypass some processes here?

On 5/3/11 2:49 PM, "Jordan Rinke"  wrote:

>Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums!
>
>http://forums.openstack.org
>
>Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the
>forum etc.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: "Everett Toews" 
>Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:22pm
>To: "Anne Gentle" 
>Cc: "Jordan Rinke" , openstack@lists.launchpad.net
>Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
>
>Regarding your StackExchange questions Anne.
>
>For an Open Source StackExchange-like site OSQA (http://www.osqa.net/)
>could
>be used.
>
>For StackExchange itself it's free as in beer (
>http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq).
>
>"How much does Stack Exchange cost?
>
>Creating a Stack Exchange site is free. Using a Stack Exchange site is
>free. The Creative Commons licenseguarantees that questions and answers
>are
>free to access, free to use and re-use (with attribution), and free to
>shareŠ forever."
>
>Everett
>
>On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Anne Gentle  wrote:
>
>> Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :)
>>
>> A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need
>>for
>> community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the
>>types
>> of questions in Launchpad Answers.
>>
>> I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good
>>timing
>> to start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong
>>guides.
>> Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful
>>and
>> responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job
>> responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But
>>it's
>> not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being
>>responsive,
>> right?
>>
>> I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's
>> more about the community and people than a tool. The responses here
>>seem to
>> indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like
>>the
>> Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates
>> participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw
>>for
>> them to be a "Top Network Site" like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly
>>not
>> open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability
>>of a
>> standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That
>>info
>> might help with the tools discussion.
>>
>> My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't
>>have
>> empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who
>>will
>> be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the
>> tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support
>> site once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping
>> others.
>>
>> So that's my current thinking.
>> Anne
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke 
>>wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find
>>> useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering
>>> devs
>>> at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an
>>> excellent
>>> point).
>>>
>>> We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on
>>> the
>>> survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth).
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM
>>> To: Jordan Rinke
>>> Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
>>>
>>> Jordan Rinke wrote:
>>> > I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is
>>> > great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett
>>>linked
>>> > looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to
>>> > ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a
>>> > place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a
>>> question as well.
>>>
>>> If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related
>>>forums in
>>> the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it
>>>relies
>>> on
>>> a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or
>>> outdated)
>>> technical answers and user frustration.
>>>
>>> They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is
>>>a
>>> huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a
>>>valuable
>>> and
>>> continuously-updated source of information.
>>>
>>> I don't want us to run into the same failure before realizing there is
>>>a
>>> better and more targeted tool available... Personally I would ignore
>>> forums
>>> (since they are a waste of time), but contribute to the stackexchange
>>>site
>>> (since they are an easy way to contribute reference infor

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Bernard Golden]

Do I have this right? We were just debating this topic this morning and I just 
see a blog post by Stephen Spector announcing forums?

Incroyable!

Bernard Golden
bernard.gol...@gmail.com




On May 3, 2011, at 2:42 PM, Daniel Salinas wrote:

> This is awesome!!!  Now we can spend 3 weeks debating about forum
> software.  I like vbulletin.
> 
> On 5/3/11 3:32 PM, "Michael Shuler"  wrote:
> 
>> On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote:
>>> Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums!
>>> 
>>> http://forums.openstack.org
>>> 
>>> Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about
>>> the forum etc.
>> 
>> phpBB is a poor choice of forum software, IMO.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Michael
>> 
>> ___
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> 
> 
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Re: [Openstack] Moving code hosting to GitHub

[andi abes]

I'm not sure who wins in git vs. bzr ease of use... guess it depends on how
quickly I get over this error:

$ bzr pull lp:swift/1.3
bzr: ERROR: Cannot lock LockDir(
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~swift/swift/omega-1.3.0-7/.bzr/branch/lock):
Transport oper
ation not possible: http does not support mkdir()


any idea ?

On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Soren Hansen  wrote:

> 2011/4/27 Thomas Goirand :
> > On 04/27/2011 11:26 PM, Soren Hansen wrote:
> >> To get working, yes. To be an expert, no.
> >>
> >> bzr lp-login
> >> (bzr init-repo)
> >> bzr branch
> >> (bzr add)
> >> bzr commit
> >> bzr push
> >>
> >> ..are sufficient to just get started.
> > No, I don't agree, it's not enough. See below.
>
>
> >>> and that's most of the time the issues with "using bzr for git users"
> >>> tutorials: they tend to think that you're ok with the most basics
> >>> command, and that you wont ever need more. Truth is you do, and
> >>> finding the relevant information for the thing you need takes time (a
> >>> big cost, to use your own words...).  If you find a "learning quickly
> >>> advanced bzr commands for git users" type of tutorial, I might change
> >>> my mind! :)
> >>
> >> If you can explain what sort of stuff you've had a hard time finding, I
> >> can probably whip up something that will be helpful to others.
> > - git reset --hard 
>
> bzr uncommit -r 
>
> that leaves the changes in the working directory, though. You can use
> "bzr revert" to remove the changes from the working directory.
>
> > - git commit -a --amend (to correct the latest commit)
>
> bzr uncommit ; bzr commit
>
> > - git format-patch 
>
> bzr log -c  -p
>
> > - or maybe instead: git diff -u -r  -r 
>
> bzr diff -r ..
>
> > - git push --force (you told me, but I forgot... is that bzr push
> > --overwrite?)
>
> "bzr push --overwrite", but please don't use it. It's the same for
> git, really. Once you've pushed it somewhere, don't remove stuff from
> it, or rebase it or whatever. If anyone has pulled from it and based
> work on it, it's extremely awkward if they want to sync up with you.
>
> > - git cherry-pick -x
>
> bzr merge -c , but its use is discouraged.
>
> > - git -r branch (does listing branches on the remote side even make
> > sense with bzr?)
>
> No.
>
> > - git tag (to list tags, as bzr tag  seems working)
>
> bzr tags
>
> > There must be more than I can't recall just now, in 5 minutes of deep
> > thoughts.
>
> I still don't see how any of the above are *required* to start working,
> though.
>
> > Also, one thing I love with git, is that I can always do "man
> > git-command" if I want help with "command", and there's more than 100 of
> > them. Is this available somehow?
>
> "bzr  -h" shows the help for the subcommand.
>
> "bzr help " is roughly the same, but it provides help for a bunch
> of things other than commands.
>
> "bzr help commands" shows you (almost) all the available commands (bzr
> help hidden-commands shows a few extra commands that most people will
> never need)
>
> "bzr help topics" shows a bunch of topics that has more extensive
> explanations.
>
>
> --
> Soren Hansen| http://linux2go.dk/
> Ubuntu Developer| http://www.ubuntu.com/
> OpenStack Developer | http://www.openstack.org/
>
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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Vishvananda Ishaya]

I just brought that up in the release meeting.  It is on the agenda for the PPB 
to discuss on Thursday.

Vish

On May 3, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Paul Voccio wrote:

> Are these really the "official" openstack forums? I didn't get the
> impression that this was settled. Didn't we bypass some processes here?
> 
> On 5/3/11 2:49 PM, "Jordan Rinke"  wrote:
> 
>> Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums!
>> 
>> http://forums.openstack.org
>> 
>> Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the
>> forum etc.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: "Everett Toews" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:22pm
>> To: "Anne Gentle" 
>> Cc: "Jordan Rinke" , openstack@lists.launchpad.net
>> Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
>> 
>> Regarding your StackExchange questions Anne.
>> 
>> For an Open Source StackExchange-like site OSQA (http://www.osqa.net/)
>> could
>> be used.
>> 
>> For StackExchange itself it's free as in beer (
>> http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq).
>> 
>> "How much does Stack Exchange cost?
>> 
>> Creating a Stack Exchange site is free. Using a Stack Exchange site is
>> free. The Creative Commons licenseguarantees that questions and answers
>> are
>> free to access, free to use and re-use (with attribution), and free to
>> shareŠ forever."
>> 
>> Everett
>> 
>> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Anne Gentle  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :)
>>> 
>>> A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need
>>> for
>>> community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the
>>> types
>>> of questions in Launchpad Answers.
>>> 
>>> I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good
>>> timing
>>> to start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong
>>> guides.
>>> Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful
>>> and
>>> responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job
>>> responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But
>>> it's
>>> not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being
>>> responsive,
>>> right?
>>> 
>>> I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's
>>> more about the community and people than a tool. The responses here
>>> seem to
>>> indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like
>>> the
>>> Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates
>>> participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw
>>> for
>>> them to be a "Top Network Site" like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly
>>> not
>>> open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability
>>> of a
>>> standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That
>>> info
>>> might help with the tools discussion.
>>> 
>>> My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't
>>> have
>>> empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who
>>> will
>>> be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the
>>> tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support
>>> site once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping
>>> others.
>>> 
>>> So that's my current thinking.
>>> Anne
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find
 useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering
 devs
 at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an
 excellent
 point).
 
 We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on
 the
 survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth).
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org]
 Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM
 To: Jordan Rinke
 Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
 Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
 
 Jordan Rinke wrote:
> I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is
> great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett
 linked
> looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to
> ask a very specific question just yet. So maybe it is that we need a
> place for random discussion, but that can also specifically answer a
 question as well.
 
 If you take Ubuntu (arguably one of the largest software-related
 forums in
 the world), the forums are completely ignored by developers, so it
 relies
 on
 a completely separate user community. It is a source for wrong (or
 outdated)
 technical answers and user frustration.
 
 They recently set up a stackexchange site at ask.ubuntu.com, and it is
 a
 huge success. Developers and users contribute to it, and it's a
 valuable
>>>

[Openstack] Separation of IRC Channels

[Ant Messerli]

Hey all,

I wanted to see what everyones opinions were on separating out some of the IRC 
channels.  When the project started we decided to keep #openstack as the 
primary channel since the project was small at the time.  Over the last year 
with the project growing, the traffic in the #openstack channel have increased 
quite a bit.

The #openstack channel is the place people go for dev talk, support, and 
Openstack conversation.  My proposal is that we separate out development talk 
into separate channels and keep #openstack as the place for new people to the 
project to ask questions and get help.  It might help separate a lot of the 
cross project talk.  I think it helps out for those trying to focus on a 
specific project and may actually get more talk to occur in the rooms.

We could use these to start:

#openstack – Help and Getting Started
#openstack-meeting – Community Meetings
#openstack-nova – All Nova Development
#openstack-swift – All Swift Development
#openstack-glance – All Glance Development

Obviously there are other projects as well that we could look at making 
channels for but I think these are the ones that are getting a majority of the 
traffic today.

Thoughts, comments?

-Ant


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Re: [Openstack] Moving code hosting to GitHub

[Josh Kearney]

Try 'bzr branch' instead of 'pull'.

On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 5:17 PM, andi abes  wrote:

> I'm not sure who wins in git vs. bzr ease of use... guess it depends on how
> quickly I get over this error:
>
> $ bzr pull lp:swift/1.3
> bzr: ERROR: Cannot lock LockDir(
> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~swift/swift/omega-1.3.0-7/.bzr/branch/lock):
> Transport oper
> ation not possible: http does not support mkdir()
>
>
> any idea ?
>
> On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Soren Hansen  wrote:
>
>> 2011/4/27 Thomas Goirand :
>> > On 04/27/2011 11:26 PM, Soren Hansen wrote:
>> >> To get working, yes. To be an expert, no.
>> >>
>> >> bzr lp-login
>> >> (bzr init-repo)
>> >> bzr branch
>> >> (bzr add)
>> >> bzr commit
>> >> bzr push
>> >>
>> >> ..are sufficient to just get started.
>> > No, I don't agree, it's not enough. See below.
>>
>>
>> >>> and that's most of the time the issues with "using bzr for git users"
>> >>> tutorials: they tend to think that you're ok with the most basics
>> >>> command, and that you wont ever need more. Truth is you do, and
>> >>> finding the relevant information for the thing you need takes time (a
>> >>> big cost, to use your own words...).  If you find a "learning quickly
>> >>> advanced bzr commands for git users" type of tutorial, I might change
>> >>> my mind! :)
>> >>
>> >> If you can explain what sort of stuff you've had a hard time finding, I
>> >> can probably whip up something that will be helpful to others.
>> > - git reset --hard 
>>
>> bzr uncommit -r 
>>
>> that leaves the changes in the working directory, though. You can use
>> "bzr revert" to remove the changes from the working directory.
>>
>> > - git commit -a --amend (to correct the latest commit)
>>
>> bzr uncommit ; bzr commit
>>
>> > - git format-patch 
>>
>> bzr log -c  -p
>>
>> > - or maybe instead: git diff -u -r  -r 
>>
>> bzr diff -r ..
>>
>> > - git push --force (you told me, but I forgot... is that bzr push
>> > --overwrite?)
>>
>> "bzr push --overwrite", but please don't use it. It's the same for
>> git, really. Once you've pushed it somewhere, don't remove stuff from
>> it, or rebase it or whatever. If anyone has pulled from it and based
>> work on it, it's extremely awkward if they want to sync up with you.
>>
>> > - git cherry-pick -x
>>
>> bzr merge -c , but its use is discouraged.
>>
>> > - git -r branch (does listing branches on the remote side even make
>> > sense with bzr?)
>>
>> No.
>>
>> > - git tag (to list tags, as bzr tag  seems working)
>>
>> bzr tags
>>
>> > There must be more than I can't recall just now, in 5 minutes of deep
>> > thoughts.
>>
>> I still don't see how any of the above are *required* to start working,
>> though.
>>
>> > Also, one thing I love with git, is that I can always do "man
>> > git-command" if I want help with "command", and there's more than 100 of
>> > them. Is this available somehow?
>>
>> "bzr  -h" shows the help for the subcommand.
>>
>> "bzr help " is roughly the same, but it provides help for a bunch
>> of things other than commands.
>>
>> "bzr help commands" shows you (almost) all the available commands (bzr
>> help hidden-commands shows a few extra commands that most people will
>> never need)
>>
>> "bzr help topics" shows a bunch of topics that has more extensive
>> explanations.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Soren Hansen| http://linux2go.dk/
>> Ubuntu Developer| http://www.ubuntu.com/
>> OpenStack Developer | http://www.openstack.org/
>>
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Re: [Openstack] Separation of IRC Channels

[Ken Pepple]

On May 3, 2011, at 3:22 PM, Ant Messerli wrote:
> #openstack – Help and Getting Started
> #openstack-meeting – Community Meetings
> #openstack-nova – All Nova Development
> #openstack-swift – All Swift Development
> #openstack-glance – All Glance Development

Do we have to break out all the projects into their own development channels ? 

Can't we just have a #openstack-dev to cover them all ?

There are a lot of cross-project discussions (especially between nova/glance, 
but I think NaaS will also cross quite a few projects).

/k

---
Ken Pepple
http://ken.pepple.info





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Re: [Openstack] Separation of IRC Channels

[Vishvananda Ishaya]

Agreed, we still have a lot of cross project discussions, especially around 
things like auth/etc.  Admittedly the specific questions about swift vs. nova 
are usually isolated, but I don't think I've found it to be particularly 
annoying to have them going on in the shared channel.  Splitting out 
help/install and dev discussions seems more valuable then separating by project 
at this point.

Vish

On May 3, 2011, at 4:16 PM, Ken Pepple wrote:

> On May 3, 2011, at 3:22 PM, Ant Messerli wrote:
>> #openstack – Help and Getting Started
>> #openstack-meeting – Community Meetings
>> #openstack-nova – All Nova Development
>> #openstack-swift – All Swift Development
>> #openstack-glance – All Glance Development
> 
> Do we have to break out all the projects into their own development channels 
> ? 
> 
> Can't we just have a #openstack-dev to cover them all ?
> 
> There are a lot of cross-project discussions (especially between nova/glance, 
> but I think NaaS will also cross quite a few projects).
> 
> /k
> 
> ---
> Ken Pepple
> http://ken.pepple.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[Openstack] Problem with "values" in JSON responses

[Eldar Nugaev]

Hi gents.

At this moment we have problem in OS API 1.1. Any JSON response with
"values" doesn't meet specification.
Could you please provide information - why we want to see "values"
field in JSON and who is responsable for implementation this
specification in OS API 1.1?

Also we have broken documentation on openstack.org OS API 1.0
http://docs.openstack.org/cactus/openstack-compute/developer/openstack-compute-api-1.0/content/index.html

-- 
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Skype: eldar.nugaev

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Re: [Openstack] Separation of IRC Channels

[Jay Pipes]

On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Ken Pepple  wrote:
> Do we have to break out all the projects into their own development channels
> ?
> Can't we just have a #openstack-dev to cover them all ?
> There are a lot of cross-project discussions (especially between
> nova/glance, but I think NaaS will also cross quite a few projects).

+1

-jay

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Re: [Openstack] Problem with "values" in JSON responses

[Vishvananda Ishaya]

We discussed the "values" debacle at the design summit last week.  The 
existence of values is due to the ability of lists in xml to have attributes 
and to allow for extensibility.  The solution is ugly and we're looking at a 
way to fix it. The Rackspace Titan team 
(https://launchpad.net/~rackspace-titan) is coming up with a proposal for 
standardizing the json and making conversion to and from XML easier.

Vish

On May 3, 2011, at 4:29 PM, Eldar Nugaev wrote:

> Hi gents.
> 
> At this moment we have problem in OS API 1.1. Any JSON response with
> "values" doesn't meet specification.
> Could you please provide information - why we want to see "values"
> field in JSON and who is responsable for implementation this
> specification in OS API 1.1?
> 
> Also we have broken documentation on openstack.org OS API 1.0
> http://docs.openstack.org/cactus/openstack-compute/developer/openstack-compute-api-1.0/content/index.html
> 
> -- 
> Eldar
> Skype: eldar.nugaev
> 
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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Jordan Rinke]

Yeah... I misunderstood the process and where we were / some direction I 
received and I implemented the forums before it was fully decided. Once I did 
that Stephen put out the announcement at my request believing that everything 
was set and ready to go.

I totally take the blame for executing something that wasn't actually ready to 
go from a community consensus stand point and I apologize.

-Original Message-
From: "Vishvananda Ishaya" 
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 6:17pm
To: "Paul Voccio" 
Cc: "Jordan Rinke" , "Everett Toews" 
, "openstack@lists.launchpad.net" 

Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

I just brought that up in the release meeting.  It is on the agenda for the PPB 
to discuss on Thursday.

Vish

On May 3, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Paul Voccio wrote:

> Are these really the "official" openstack forums? I didn't get the
> impression that this was settled. Didn't we bypass some processes here?
> 
> On 5/3/11 2:49 PM, "Jordan Rinke"  wrote:
> 
>> Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums!
>> 
>> http://forums.openstack.org
>> 
>> Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the
>> forum etc.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: "Everett Toews" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:22pm
>> To: "Anne Gentle" 
>> Cc: "Jordan Rinke" , openstack@lists.launchpad.net
>> Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
>> 
>> Regarding your StackExchange questions Anne.
>> 
>> For an Open Source StackExchange-like site OSQA (http://www.osqa.net/)
>> could
>> be used.
>> 
>> For StackExchange itself it's free as in beer (
>> http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq).
>> 
>> "How much does Stack Exchange cost?
>> 
>> Creating a Stack Exchange site is free. Using a Stack Exchange site is
>> free. The Creative Commons licenseguarantees that questions and answers
>> are
>> free to access, free to use and re-use (with attribution), and free to
>> shareŠ forever."
>> 
>> Everett
>> 
>> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Anne Gentle  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hey all, thanks for asking for my input. :)
>>> 
>>> A few months ago, I said it's too early. This month, I do sense a need
>>> for
>>> community support, based on questions I see on the docs site and the
>>> types
>>> of questions in Launchpad Answers.
>>> 
>>> I think we're getting to a real user community and it would be good
>>> timing
>>> to start a forum, so I say yes, with the request that we have strong
>>> guides.
>>> Jordan and Ron can be our one-percenter guys, the ones who are helpful
>>> and
>>> responsive. We'll need other one-percenters. Vish has done a _great_ job
>>> responding to Launchpad Answers. It's getting to be really helpful. But
>>> it's
>>> not quite a forum. And it's not about the tool, it's about being
>>> responsive,
>>> right?
>>> 
>>> I don't want to weigh in too heavily on a tools discussion, because it's
>>> more about the community and people than a tool. The responses here
>>> seem to
>>> indicate that sys admins would lean towards forums. I personally like
>>> the
>>> Stack Exchange style sites for building a reputation which motivates
>>> participation if done well. However, OpenStack is not a big enough draw
>>> for
>>> them to be a "Top Network Site" like Ubuntu. And the tool is certainly
>>> not
>>> open source. I don't honestly know pricing or licensing or availability
>>> of a
>>> standalone Stack Exchange site. Does anyone have details there? That
>>> info
>>> might help with the tools discussion.
>>> 
>>> My main point is that I'd like to ensure responsiveness, so we don't
>>> have
>>> empty restaurant syndrome in a forum-like support site. The people who
>>> will
>>> be most responsive to users and adopters should probably weigh in on the
>>> tools discussion. Devs won't need to monitor the admin community support
>>> site once we get a core group of admins running OpenStack and helping
>>> others.
>>> 
>>> So that's my current thinking.
>>> Anne
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 9:36 AM, Jordan Rinke 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 Interesting because Ron very specifically mentioned being able to find
 useful and relevant information on the Ubuntu forums without bothering
 devs
 at the beginning of this discussion (which Soren then noted as an
 excellent
 point).
 
 We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on
 the
 survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth).
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org]
 Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM
 To: Jordan Rinke
 Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
 Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum
 
 Jordan Rinke wrote:
> I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is
> great for a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett
 linked
> looks great) but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to
> ask a very specific question just 

Re: [Openstack] Problem with "values" in JSON responses

[Gabe Westmaas]

Team titan will be implementing this, and the "values" array was one of the 
discussion points at the conference that didn't come to an immediate 
resolution.  We will try to put together a reasonable approach that balances 
the goals of the "values" attributes as well as the goals of "jsonic" json 
using some approaches discussed at the conference.

Gabe

On Tuesday, May 3, 2011 7:29pm, "Eldar Nugaev"  said:

> Hi gents.
> 
> At this moment we have problem in OS API 1.1. Any JSON response with
> "values" doesn't meet specification.
> Could you please provide information - why we want to see "values"
> field in JSON and who is responsable for implementation this
> specification in OS API 1.1?
> 
> Also we have broken documentation on openstack.org OS API 1.0
> http://docs.openstack.org/cactus/openstack-compute/developer/openstack-compute-api-1.0/content/index.html
> 
> --
> Eldar
> Skype: eldar.nugaev
> 
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Re: [Openstack] Problem with "values" in JSON responses

[Jorge Williams]

On May 3, 2011, at 6:29 PM, Eldar Nugaev wrote:

> Hi gents.
> 
> At this moment we have problem in OS API 1.1. Any JSON response with
> "values" doesn't meet specification.

What specification are you referring to?

> Could you please provide information - why we want to see "values"
> field in JSON and who is responsable for implementation this
> specification in OS API 1.1?
> 

We use "values" as a first attempt to add extensibility to collections in JSON. 
 We had a lengthy discussion about this at the summit.  To summarize:  there's 
no really easy/clean way of doing this as JSON is not extensible.  We're 
currently exploring other approaches, so values may go away in the long term.  
The 1.1 spec is not set in stone in this regard.


> Also we have broken documentation on openstack.org OS API 1.0
> http://docs.openstack.org/cactus/openstack-compute/developer/openstack-compute-api-1.0/content/index.html
> 

Right, Anne -- can you look into this?


> -- 
> Eldar
> Skype: eldar.nugaev
> 
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Re: [Openstack] Separation of IRC Channels

[Eric Day]

I would vote for no separation yet, but I understand everyone has
a different threshold. If we do separate, +1 on #openstack-dev,
#openstack- seems a bit excessive.

-Eric

On Tue, May 03, 2011 at 07:34:30PM -0400, Jay Pipes wrote:
> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Ken Pepple  wrote:
> > Do we have to break out all the projects into their own development channels
> > ?
> > Can't we just have a #openstack-dev to cover them all ?
> > There are a lot of cross-project discussions (especially between
> > nova/glance, but I think NaaS will also cross quite a few projects).
> 
> +1
> 
> -jay
> 
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Re: [Openstack] Problem with "values" in JSON responses

[Paul Voccio]

Hi Eldar, 

There was a good discussion at the summit in regards to how this is going
to be represented. Jay Pipes and Jorge Williams were on point (I think)
for pushing this topic forward. Hopefully one of them can reply here with
their findings. 

Pvo

On 5/3/11 6:29 PM, "Eldar Nugaev"  wrote:

>Hi gents.
>
>At this moment we have problem in OS API 1.1. Any JSON response with
>"values" doesn't meet specification.
>Could you please provide information - why we want to see "values"
>field in JSON and who is responsable for implementation this
>specification in OS API 1.1?
>
>Also we have broken documentation on openstack.org OS API 1.0
>http://docs.openstack.org/cactus/openstack-compute/developer/openstack-com
>pute-api-1.0/content/index.html
>
>-- 
>Eldar
>Skype: eldar.nugaev
>
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[Openstack] Lieutenants (Again)

[Vishvananda Ishaya]

Hey Everyone,

A couple people have stepped up to lead development on different sections of 
the code. Thanks to Brian Waldon and Brian Lamar for listing themselves at 
http://wiki.openstack.org/NovaLieutenants

I'm still looking for points of contact for the remaining sections.  Even 
though alternate projects are being created for volumes and networking, I still 
need someone to manage the existing nova code in these areas.  Even more 
important are POCs for the various hypervisors.  We have a breaking change 
coming in the multinic code, and I want to make sure that changes like this 
make it into all hypervisors as quickly as possible.

I'm assuming someone from citrix is right for both Xen and ESX hypervisors.  
Volunteers?

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Re: [Openstack] Problem with "values" in JSON responses

[Eldar Nugaev]

I'm referring to the
http://docs.openstack.org/cactus/openstack-compute/developer/openstack-compute-api-1.1/
documentation. There are examples of json responses with "values". I
suppose we should change documentation to the actual state or change
actual state to the documentation.

On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 4:58 PM, Jorge Williams
 wrote:
>
> On May 3, 2011, at 6:29 PM, Eldar Nugaev wrote:
>
>> Hi gents.
>>
>> At this moment we have problem in OS API 1.1. Any JSON response with
>> "values" doesn't meet specification.
>
> What specification are you referring to?
>
>> Could you please provide information - why we want to see "values"
>> field in JSON and who is responsable for implementation this
>> specification in OS API 1.1?
>>
>
> We use "values" as a first attempt to add extensibility to collections in 
> JSON.  We had a lengthy discussion about this at the summit.  To summarize:  
> there's no really easy/clean way of doing this as JSON is not extensible.  
> We're currently exploring other approaches, so values may go away in the long 
> term.  The 1.1 spec is not set in stone in this regard.
>
>
>> Also we have broken documentation on openstack.org OS API 1.0
>> http://docs.openstack.org/cactus/openstack-compute/developer/openstack-compute-api-1.0/content/index.html
>>
>
> Right, Anne -- can you look into this?
>
>
>> --
>> Eldar
>> Skype: eldar.nugaev
>>
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Re: [Openstack] Problem with "values" in JSON responses

[Jay Pipes]

On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Jorge Williams
 wrote:
> On May 3, 2011, at 6:29 PM, Eldar Nugaev wrote:
>> Could you please provide information - why we want to see "values"
>> field in JSON and who is responsable for implementation this
>> specification in OS API 1.1?
>>
>
> We use "values" as a first attempt to add extensibility to collections in 
> JSON.  We had a lengthy discussion about this at the summit.  To summarize:  
> there's no really easy/clean way of doing this as JSON is not extensible.

Hmm, I might have summarized our discussion differently :P

> We're currently exploring other approaches, so values may go away in the long 
> term.  The 1.1 spec is not set in stone in this regard.

Right. I think we came to a decision to try running the XML through an
automated JSON-ifier and using the output of that as a starting point.

-jay

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Re: [Openstack] Separation of IRC Channels

[Devin Carlen]

+1 to not splitting everything up. 

On May 3, 2011, at 5:03 PM, Eric Day  wrote:

> I would vote for no separation yet, but I understand everyone has
> a different threshold. If we do separate, +1 on #openstack-dev,
> #openstack- seems a bit excessive.
> 
> -Eric
> 
> On Tue, May 03, 2011 at 07:34:30PM -0400, Jay Pipes wrote:
>> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Ken Pepple  wrote:
>>> Do we have to break out all the projects into their own development channels
>>> ?
>>> Can't we just have a #openstack-dev to cover them all ?
>>> There are a lot of cross-project discussions (especially between
>>> nova/glance, but I think NaaS will also cross quite a few projects).
>> 
>> +1
>> 
>> -jay
>> 
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Re: [Openstack] lunr reference iSCSI target driver

[MORITA Kazutaka]

At Tue, 03 May 2011 12:19:50 -0700,
Josh Durgin wrote:
> 
> On 05/02/2011 01:46 PM, Chuck Thier wrote:
> > This leads to another interesting question.  While our reference
> > implementation may not directly expose snapshot functionality, I imagine
> > other storage implementations could want to. I'm interested to hear what use
> > cases others would be interested in with snapshots.  The obvious ones are
> > things like creating a volume based on a snapshot, or rolling a volume back
> > to a previous snapshot.  I would like others' input here to shape what the
> > snapshot API might look like.
> 
> For RBD we only need the obvious ones:
> - create/list/remove snapshots
> - create volume from a snapshot
> - rollback to a snapshot

These are the same for Sheepdog too.

Thanks,

Kazutaka

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Re: [Openstack] Discussion on October Design Summit Locations

[Devin Carlen]

There was a lot of talk earlier about Seattle and there seemed to be a fair 
amount of interest.

Devin

On May 3, 2011, at 2:49 PM, Stephen Spector wrote:

> Team:
> 
> As we all are interested in where the next event is located I thought I would 
> send out a recap of the meeting I had last week at the Design Summit:
>>  • October 2011 Event – We will again run a Conference and Design Summit 
>> the first week of October which is 2 weeks after the Diablo Release
>>  • The developers are all in agreement that having the business 
>> development folks is a plus
>>  • There was a discussion on holding the event during code 
>> freeze of Diablo but there are many complications to this idea
>>  • The event will be held in the US; looking at New York, 
>> Orlando, Boston 
>>  • GOAL: Look at various options and have a facility chosen in 
>> late May ; Planning will start in June
>>  • Event Projection – This could easily be a 700+ person event 
>> with about 200 to 300 developers
>>  • 2012 Events 
>>  • OpenStack User Event & Design Summit (April 2012)
>>  • Run a large User Event with the Design Summit running 
>> 1 or 2 days after start of User Event
>>  • Hold an exhibit hall for sponsors to promote their 
>> solutions to users
>>  • Event Projection -  this could be a 1,000 to 2,000 
>> person event based on how we promote, location we choose, etc
>>  • More discussion needed and location/date selection 
>> needs to occur this summer
>>  • OpenStack Conference and Design Summit  (October 2012)
>>  • Target Europe or Asia for this event 
>> Finally, the marketing of the Conference and Design Summit needs more effort 
>> to clarify the Conference part being for the Ecosystem partners. I will work 
>> on this for our October event. 
> Location – I was thinking about New York, Montreal, Boston, Washington, D.C, 
> Orlando, etc and am focusing on Boston as it is a large technical hub similar 
> to Silicon Valley and believe we should continue to take advantage of the 
> local community of technologists to continue growing the event and promote 
> OpenStack. As for Europe, the consensus in the room was that we don't have 
> too many developers in Europe at this time and almost everyone would need to 
> travel which would increase costs across the community as well as limit the 
> number of developers who could attend as many companies are not allowing 
> international travel. 
> 
> I agree that holding the event in Japan would be optimal and that was the 
> original plan; however, we have some difficulties with high costs in Japan 
> and local event sponsorship at this time. The community in Japan is growing 
> but is not yet ready to put on an event. South Korea is another option; 
> however everyone will need to travel again and costs will be higher than the 
> US. Finally, Hawaii sounds great until you see the cost of a Diet Coke in a 
> hotel – it is just too expensive. 
> 
> Please feel free to add your thoughts on this discussion. Thanks
> 
> - - - 
> Stephen Spector, Rackspace
> OpenStack Community Manager
> stephen.spec...@openstack.org
> OpenStack Blog | @opnstk_com_mgr
> Office  +1 (512) 539-1162 | Mobile +1 (210) 415-0930
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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Thomas Goirand]

On 05/04/2011 05:42 AM, Daniel Salinas wrote:
> This is awesome!!!  Now we can spend 3 weeks debating about forum
> software.  I like vbulletin.
> 
> On 5/3/11 3:32 PM, "Michael Shuler"  wrote:
> 
>> On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote:
>>> Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums!
>>>
>>> http://forums.openstack.org
>>>
>>> Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about
>>> the forum etc.
>>
>> phpBB is a poor choice of forum software, IMO.
>>
>> -- 
>> Michael

Yet, phpBB has a very bad security record, and I had countless issues
with it. Spammers / hackers have the bad habit to google for a specific
version of phpBB and use that as a result for targets.

Also, phpBB isn't threaded. I think threading isn't an option: it's
needed, IMHO.

Just my 2 cents,

Thomas

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Re: [Openstack] Lieutenants (Again)

[Matt Dietz]

I'll add myself to the pool for Xen

From: Vishvananda Ishaya mailto:vishvana...@gmail.com>>
Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 17:08:35 -0700
To: mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net>>
Subject: [Openstack] Lieutenants (Again)

Hey Everyone,

A couple people have stepped up to lead development on different sections of 
the code. Thanks to Brian Waldon and Brian Lamar for listing themselves at 
http://wiki.openstack.org/NovaLieutenants

I'm still looking for points of contact for the remaining sections.  Even 
though alternate projects are being created for volumes and networking, I still 
need someone to manage the existing nova code in these areas.  Even more 
important are POCs for the various hypervisors.  We have a breaking change 
coming in the multinic code, and I want to make sure that changes like this 
make it into all hypervisors as quickly as possible.

I'm assuming someone from citrix is right for both Xen and ESX hypervisors.  
Volunteers?

Vish
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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Daniel Salinas]

And I think that is exactly the things one should bring to the table when
discussing the pros/cons of a piece of software. I don't have a preference
myself.  I don't really know of any webapp beyond security problems.  What
is more important to me is who will maintain it and how quickly that app's
authors respond to exploits.  Do we have a hard list of people committed
to the project?  I have signed up as a moderator.


On 5/3/11 9:51 PM, "Thomas Goirand"  wrote:

>On 05/04/2011 05:42 AM, Daniel Salinas wrote:
>> This is awesome!!!  Now we can spend 3 weeks debating about forum
>> software.  I like vbulletin.
>> 
>> On 5/3/11 3:32 PM, "Michael Shuler"  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote:
 Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums!

 http://forums.openstack.org

 Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about
 the forum etc.
>>>
>>> phpBB is a poor choice of forum software, IMO.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Michael
>
>Yet, phpBB has a very bad security record, and I had countless issues
>with it. Spammers / hackers have the bad habit to google for a specific
>version of phpBB and use that as a result for targets.
>
>Also, phpBB isn't threaded. I think threading isn't an option: it's
>needed, IMHO.
>
>Just my 2 cents,
>
>Thomas
>
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Re: [Openstack] Separation of IRC Channels

[Todd Willey]

I think we should finalize a plan for the forum before we start
changing IRC.  I'd hate to become unresponsive on many fronts at once,
and I think growing just one of those communities will be hard enough.

On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 8:23 PM, Devin Carlen  wrote:
> +1 to not splitting everything up.
>
> On May 3, 2011, at 5:03 PM, Eric Day  wrote:
>
>> I would vote for no separation yet, but I understand everyone has
>> a different threshold. If we do separate, +1 on #openstack-dev,
>> #openstack- seems a bit excessive.
>>
>> -Eric
>>
>> On Tue, May 03, 2011 at 07:34:30PM -0400, Jay Pipes wrote:
>>> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Ken Pepple  
>>> wrote:
 Do we have to break out all the projects into their own development 
 channels
 ?
 Can't we just have a #openstack-dev to cover them all ?
 There are a lot of cross-project discussions (especially between
 nova/glance, but I think NaaS will also cross quite a few projects).
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> -jay
>>>
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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Me]

Is there another free OSS option out there for a forum? All the others I  
know of require money for commercial use etc.


Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless

-Original message-
From: Daniel Salinas 
To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net
Sent: 2011 May, Wed, 4 03:24:52 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

And I think that is exactly the things one should bring to the table when
discussing the pros/cons of a piece of software. I don't have a preference
myself.  I don't really know of any webapp beyond security problems.  What
is more important to me is who will maintain it and how quickly that app's
authors respond to exploits.  Do we have a hard list of people committed
to the project?  I have signed up as a moderator.


On 5/3/11 9:51 PM, "Thomas Goirand"  wrote:


On 05/04/2011 05:42 AM, Daniel Salinas wrote:

This is awesome!!!  Now we can spend 3 weeks debating about forum
software.  I like vbulletin.

On 5/3/11 3:32 PM, "Michael Shuler"  wrote:


On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote:

Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums!

http://forums.openstack.org

Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about
the forum etc.


phpBB is a poor choice of forum software, IMO.

--
Michael


Yet, phpBB has a very bad security record, and I had countless issues
with it. Spammers / hackers have the bad habit to google for a specific
version of phpBB and use that as a result for targets.

Also, phpBB isn't threaded. I think threading isn't an option: it's
needed, IMHO.

Just my 2 cents,

Thomas

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Re: [Openstack] Separation of IRC Channels

[Jay Payne]

If we do create any new IRC channels I would rather see a #openstack-ops or 
#openstack-deploy than an #openstack-dev but I do agree that the forum plans 
should be finalized first.  

--J

Sent from my iPad

On May 3, 2011, at 22:47, Todd Willey  wrote:

> I think we should finalize a plan for the forum before we start
> changing IRC.  I'd hate to become unresponsive on many fronts at once,
> and I think growing just one of those communities will be hard enough.
> 
> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 8:23 PM, Devin Carlen  wrote:
>> +1 to not splitting everything up.
>> 
>> On May 3, 2011, at 5:03 PM, Eric Day  wrote:
>> 
>>> I would vote for no separation yet, but I understand everyone has
>>> a different threshold. If we do separate, +1 on #openstack-dev,
>>> #openstack- seems a bit excessive.
>>> 
>>> -Eric
>>> 
>>> On Tue, May 03, 2011 at 07:34:30PM -0400, Jay Pipes wrote:
 On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Ken Pepple  
 wrote:
> Do we have to break out all the projects into their own development 
> channels
> ?
> Can't we just have a #openstack-dev to cover them all ?
> There are a lot of cross-project discussions (especially between
> nova/glance, but I think NaaS will also cross quite a few projects).
 
 +1
 
 -jay
 
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Re: [Openstack] Discussion on October Design Summit Locations

[Thomas Goirand]

- Original message -
> > As for Europe, the
> > consensus in the room was that we don't have too many developers in
> > Europe at this time and almost everyone would need to travel which
> > would increase costs across the community as well as limit the number
> > of developers who could attend as many companies are not allowing
> > international travel. 

Surprisingly, this consensus was made in California!

:)

Thomas


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Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

[Thomas Goirand]

- Original message -
> Is there another free OSS option out there for a forum? All the others I
>     know of require money for commercial use etc.

About 2 dozen of very valuable projects yes.

PunBB, SMF and Fudforum pops to my mind, smf being
the most famous, Fudforum being the most feature
full (IMHO). All of then are in GPL or similar,
having better security record, and responsive
upstream authors. Fudforum has a threaded mode.

PhpBB is what Openstack should never become:
bloatware because of too many not organized
contribs.

Thomas (from my phone)


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[Openstack] Network service: Quantum and Donabe BPs

[Ram Durairaj (radurair)]

Hello All:

 

As per our discussions in Design summit, created 4 Blueprint (BP)
placeholder for Donabe...and also see 6 BPs for Quantum ...wondering
about  need for so many # of BPs...

 

Could we just have two BPs one for Quantum and another for Donabe? That
way most of the discussions and the subsequent dev may be all inter
related wrt one of these BP...

 

Sorry, new to this BP/Launchpad process...So not clear on why / how to
breakdown into Multiple BPs...I see a benefit if its all self contained.

 

Thoughts?


Ram

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Re: [Openstack] Separation of IRC Channels

[Wayne A. Walls]

What's this forum stuff that is going on?  ;). AnywaysI'm not against an 
#OpenStack and an #OpenStack-dev/whatever, but being a non-dev, I pick up a ton 
of good information just lurking and following conversation.  I love eavesdrop 
for locating past discussions, and adding more channels doesn't stop this, just 
spreads out the information (which might be a bad thing in this case).  Most 
importantly, I don't want to have any more chat tabs open than I have to :)

Cheers,


Wayne

Sent from my iPhone

On May 3, 2011, at 22:59, Jay Payne  wrote:

> If we do create any new IRC channels I would rather see a #openstack-ops or 
> #openstack-deploy than an #openstack-dev but I do agree that the forum plans 
> should be finalized first.  
> 
> --J
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On May 3, 2011, at 22:47, Todd Willey  wrote:
> 
>> I think we should finalize a plan for the forum before we start
>> changing IRC.  I'd hate to become unresponsive on many fronts at once,
>> and I think growing just one of those communities will be hard enough.
>> 
>> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 8:23 PM, Devin Carlen  wrote:
>>> +1 to not splitting everything up.
>>> 
>>> On May 3, 2011, at 5:03 PM, Eric Day  wrote:
>>> 
 I would vote for no separation yet, but I understand everyone has
 a different threshold. If we do separate, +1 on #openstack-dev,
 #openstack- seems a bit excessive.
 
 -Eric
 
 On Tue, May 03, 2011 at 07:34:30PM -0400, Jay Pipes wrote:
> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Ken Pepple  
> wrote:
>> Do we have to break out all the projects into their own development 
>> channels
>> ?
>> Can't we just have a #openstack-dev to cover them all ?
>> There are a lot of cross-project discussions (especially between
>> nova/glance, but I think NaaS will also cross quite a few projects).
> 
> +1
> 
> -jay
> 
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Re: [Openstack] Separation of IRC Channels

[Florian Hines]

On May 3, 2011, at 5:22 PM, Ant Messerli wrote:

> Hey all,
> 
> I wanted to see what everyones opinions were on separating out some of the 
> IRC channels.  When the project started we decided to keep #openstack as the 
> primary channel since the project was small at the time.  Over the last year 
> with the project growing, the traffic in the #openstack channel have 
> increased quite a bit.
> 
> The #openstack channel is the place people go for dev talk, support, and 
> Openstack conversation.  My proposal is that we separate out development talk 
> into separate channels and keep #openstack as the place for new people to the 
> project to ask questions and get help.  It might help separate a lot of the 
> cross project talk.  I think it helps out for those trying to focus on a 
> specific project and may actually get more talk to occur in the rooms.  
> 
> We could use these to start:
> 
> #openstack – Help and Getting Started
> #openstack-meeting – Community Meetings
> #openstack-nova – All Nova Development
> #openstack-swift – All Swift Development
> #openstack-glance – All Glance Development
> 
> Obviously there are other projects as well that we could look at making 
> channels for but I think these are the ones that are getting a majority of 
> the traffic today.
> 
> Thoughts, comments?
> 
> -Ant

I think you're totally right. There's 229 people in the channel right now.   
Between all the bot chatter and chatter about project's that don't 
matter/relate to me, I've kind of stopped paying attention to the channel 
unless a few specific  keywords get said.

Florian 



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Re: [Openstack] Separation of IRC Channels

[Christian Berendt]

> Can't we just have a #openstack-dev to cover them all ?

+1

-- 
Christian Berendt
Linux / Unix Consultant & Developer
Tel.: +49-171-5542175
Mail: bere...@b1-systems.de

B1 Systems GmbH
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Re: [Openstack] Lieutenants (Again)

[Christian Berendt]

> I'm still looking for points of contact for the remaining sections.

Added myself and my co-worker Andre Naehring to "packaging for SUSE"

Bye, Christian.

-- 
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Linux / Unix Consultant & Developer
Tel.: +49-171-5542175
Mail: bere...@b1-systems.de

B1 Systems GmbH
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