Re: XAML images in WPF?

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

TGIF everyone, I have an update for my comments last Tuesday about using
XAML images in WPF apps.

I noticed that the WPF designer would randomly report errors when I started
using XAML images. This glitch has become so serious that it's crippling my
productivity and I'm backing-out the XAML and returning to plain PNG
instead. The designer is incapable of showing the XAML images by any trick
I've tried. They appear as fat border placeholders with strange sizes, or
they're collapsed, or the designer shows error text "Cannot locate
resource" even though I know the resource is correctly defined. Other times
it suggests I need to build to create assemblies for the designer even
though it's freshly rebuilt.

I've tried defining the images via a converter, via a MarkupExtension and
via a class derived from ContentControl which sets its content from the
XAML. It makes no difference.

I'm sure I saw Mads say in a video that Visual Studio now uses XAML images
everywhere ... so what's the trick or technique?

*Greg K*

>
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Re: AI [GitHub Copilot]

[Tony Wright via ozdotnet]

I find I use copilot.microsoft.com far more than GitHub copilot. I find I
have better "conversations" with the Microsoft site and it can handle and
critique any code I put in too

On Wed, 31 July 2024, 3:14 pm Nathan Schultz via ozdotnet, <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> My Copilot trial is expiring today, and I'm still wondering whether I
> should continue it.
> It's ... ok. Most of the time it saves me some keystrokes. I needed
> a Levenshtein Distance function the other day and it was decent - only
> required a small tidy up. Only a few times have I been wondering what it's
> thinking. Much better than the early days with ChatGPT.
> One annoying thing since installing it is when dealing with long method
> signatures, intellisense is no longer telling me which parameter I'm up to.
> Probably something in the configuration somewhere for that.
>
> I was listening to a PodCast about the future of Copilot, and I think it's
> going to get far more interesting (useful) in the future.
> They recognize that coding is a small minority of what we do. I know some
> people say they spend 40% coding, but for myself it's probably closer to
> 10%.
> What they're working towards (i.e. are currently dog-fooding themselves),
> is being able to give it requirements. It will look through the code-base,
> and create "slots" with suggestions on how it would implement it, which you
> can accept/reject or change.
> I'm currently working on a legacy ERP system with many years worth of
> "bandaids" (most of which were well before my time). And understanding the
> code-base takes more time than making the change itself. So this would
> actually move the needle on overall productivity.
>
> Nathan.
>
>
> On Tue, 30 Jul 2024 at 13:57, Tony McGee via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Copilot definitely isn't a magic 'do my job' button, and likely won't
>> ever be, or that job would simply no longer exist.
>>
>> It does take care of a lot of the busy work though, and isn't just for
>> Intellisense like code suggestions - you can happily converse with it in
>> the chat window about high level topics and refine the context
>> incrementally, generate boilerplate json/bicep/scripts from a few lines of
>> prose, or highlight a non-trivial block of existing code and ask it to
>> explain/summarise or find issues.
>>
>> While it's not HAL 9000 I reckon it comes pretty close, and quite
>> importantly hasn't tried to murder me (yet).
>>
>> Before my trial I was skeptical about how much value it would provide,
>> but was pleasantly surprised enough to hand over 15 dollarydoos each month.
>> 
>>
>> cheers,
>> Tony
>>
>> On 30/07/2024 08:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet wrote:
>>
>> When I first saw the movie *2001: A Space Odyssey* in 1969 I was
>> fascinated by HAL (I was clearly destined to work in IT!), and now 55 years
>> later I'd like to be able to sit down with HAL and explain some complex
>> business requirement to him, converse like professionals and weigh-up the
>> pros and cons of different platforms and languages based upon his world of
>> experience and get him to code like a 1000x developer and generate a
>> complete working skeleton of the required product. When will I see that?
>> I'm a bit disappointed so far.
>>
>> Oh well, back to coding with my Copilot buddy.
>>
>> *Greg K*
>>
>>
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>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
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Re: AI [GitHub Copilot]

[Nathan Schultz via ozdotnet]

My Copilot trial is expiring today, and I'm still wondering whether I
should continue it.
It's ... ok. Most of the time it saves me some keystrokes. I needed
a Levenshtein Distance function the other day and it was decent - only
required a small tidy up. Only a few times have I been wondering what it's
thinking. Much better than the early days with ChatGPT.
One annoying thing since installing it is when dealing with long method
signatures, intellisense is no longer telling me which parameter I'm up to.
Probably something in the configuration somewhere for that.

I was listening to a PodCast about the future of Copilot, and I think it's
going to get far more interesting (useful) in the future.
They recognize that coding is a small minority of what we do. I know some
people say they spend 40% coding, but for myself it's probably closer to
10%.
What they're working towards (i.e. are currently dog-fooding themselves),
is being able to give it requirements. It will look through the code-base,
and create "slots" with suggestions on how it would implement it, which you
can accept/reject or change.
I'm currently working on a legacy ERP system with many years worth of
"bandaids" (most of which were well before my time). And understanding the
code-base takes more time than making the change itself. So this would
actually move the needle on overall productivity.

Nathan.


On Tue, 30 Jul 2024 at 13:57, Tony McGee via ozdotnet 
wrote:

>
> Copilot definitely isn't a magic 'do my job' button, and likely won't ever
> be, or that job would simply no longer exist.
>
> It does take care of a lot of the busy work though, and isn't just for
> Intellisense like code suggestions - you can happily converse with it in
> the chat window about high level topics and refine the context
> incrementally, generate boilerplate json/bicep/scripts from a few lines of
> prose, or highlight a non-trivial block of existing code and ask it to
> explain/summarise or find issues.
>
> While it's not HAL 9000 I reckon it comes pretty close, and quite
> importantly hasn't tried to murder me (yet).
>
> Before my trial I was skeptical about how much value it would provide, but
> was pleasantly surprised enough to hand over 15 dollarydoos each month. 
>
> cheers,
> Tony
>
> On 30/07/2024 08:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet wrote:
>
> When I first saw the movie *2001: A Space Odyssey* in 1969 I was
> fascinated by HAL (I was clearly destined to work in IT!), and now 55 years
> later I'd like to be able to sit down with HAL and explain some complex
> business requirement to him, converse like professionals and weigh-up the
> pros and cons of different platforms and languages based upon his world of
> experience and get him to code like a 1000x developer and generate a
> complete working skeleton of the required product. When will I see that?
> I'm a bit disappointed so far.
>
> Oh well, back to coding with my Copilot buddy.
>
> *Greg K*
>
>
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> ozdotnet mailing list
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Re: AI

[David Connors via ozdotnet]

On Tue, 30 Jul 2024 at 19:02, Tom Gao via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> Don't know David, back in my days of coding if I couldn't write T-SQL and
> I had to google, I wouldn't get a job... maybe devs are different these
> days?
>
Times have changed.

If you ask me for most common / old school DDL or DML I can rattle it off
pretty easily as it is in my muscle memory from uni days... don't ask for
an upsert or pivot statement though - or any of the new BI stuff.

Also, new DBMS are coming up all the time and everything is the same and
different  - AI really helps there.
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Re: AI [GitHub Copilot]

[Tony McGee via ozdotnet]

That 55% seems to be from here?
https://github.blog/news-insights/research/research-quantifying-github-copilots-impact-on-developer-productivity-and-happiness/

They're comparing two cohorts on how long it took to complete a well 
defined task with Copilot vs without, so yeah with the automatic 
suggestions that it produces, that feels like a somewhat plausible 
number for a specific coding task.
They're not claiming a 55% efficiency gain across general overall 
monthly productivity though, that'd be a ridiculously high.


Overall productivity boost is tough to quantify because tasks aren't 
always well defined, and nobody is coding every single minute of the 
day, but even tiny boost may be enough for a subscription to pay for 
itself. 


cheers,
Tony


On 30/07/2024 16:18, Tom Gao wrote:
Thanks Tony GitHub claims 55% efficiency for devs gained do you agree? 
If not what % would you give it for day to day dev work?


We’ve given it a 1-2% at the most.

On Tue, 30 Jul 2024 at 3:54 PM, Tony McGee via ozdotnet 
 wrote:



Copilot definitely isn't a magic 'do my job' button, and likely
won't ever be, or that job would simply no longer exist.

It does take care of a lot of the busy work though, and isn't just
for Intellisense like code suggestions - you can happily converse
with it in the chat window about high level topics and refine the
context incrementally, generate boilerplate json/bicep/scripts
from a few lines of prose, or highlight a non-trivial block of
existing code and ask it to explain/summarise or find issues.

While it's not HAL 9000 I reckon it comes pretty close, and quite
importantly hasn't tried to murder me (yet).

Before my trial I was skeptical about how much value it would
provide, but was pleasantly surprised enough to hand over 15
dollarydoos each month. 

cheers,
Tony

On 30/07/2024 08:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet wrote:

When I first saw the movie /2001: A Space Odyssey/ in 1969 I was
fascinated by HAL (I was clearly destined to work in IT!), and
now 55 years later I'd like to be able to sit down with HAL and
explain some complex business requirement to him, converse like
professionals and weigh-up the pros and cons of different
platforms and languages based upon his world of experience and
get him to code like a 1000x developer and generate a complete
working skeleton of the required product. When will I see that?
I'm a bit disappointed so far.

Oh well, back to coding with my Copilot buddy.

/Greg K/


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Re: AI [GitHub Copilot]

[Tom Gao via ozdotnet]

Thanks Tony GitHub claims 55% efficiency for devs gained do you agree? If
not what % would you give it for day to day dev work?

We’ve given it a 1-2% at the most.

On Tue, 30 Jul 2024 at 3:54 PM, Tony McGee via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

>
> Copilot definitely isn't a magic 'do my job' button, and likely won't ever
> be, or that job would simply no longer exist.
>
> It does take care of a lot of the busy work though, and isn't just for
> Intellisense like code suggestions - you can happily converse with it in
> the chat window about high level topics and refine the context
> incrementally, generate boilerplate json/bicep/scripts from a few lines of
> prose, or highlight a non-trivial block of existing code and ask it to
> explain/summarise or find issues.
>
> While it's not HAL 9000 I reckon it comes pretty close, and quite
> importantly hasn't tried to murder me (yet).
>
> Before my trial I was skeptical about how much value it would provide, but
> was pleasantly surprised enough to hand over 15 dollarydoos each month. 
>
> cheers,
> Tony
>
> On 30/07/2024 08:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet wrote:
>
> When I first saw the movie *2001: A Space Odyssey* in 1969 I was
> fascinated by HAL (I was clearly destined to work in IT!), and now 55 years
> later I'd like to be able to sit down with HAL and explain some complex
> business requirement to him, converse like professionals and weigh-up the
> pros and cons of different platforms and languages based upon his world of
> experience and get him to code like a 1000x developer and generate a
> complete working skeleton of the required product. When will I see that?
> I'm a bit disappointed so far.
>
> Oh well, back to coding with my Copilot buddy.
>
> *Greg K*
>
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
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Re: AI [GitHub Copilot]

[Tony McGee via ozdotnet]

Copilot definitely isn't a magic 'do my job' button, and likely won't 
ever be, or that job would simply no longer exist.


It does take care of a lot of the busy work though, and isn't just for 
Intellisense like code suggestions - you can happily converse with it in 
the chat window about high level topics and refine the context 
incrementally, generate boilerplate json/bicep/scripts from a few lines 
of prose, or highlight a non-trivial block of existing code and ask it 
to explain/summarise or find issues.


While it's not HAL 9000 I reckon it comes pretty close, and quite 
importantly hasn't tried to murder me (yet).


Before my trial I was skeptical about how much value it would provide, 
but was pleasantly surprised enough to hand over 15 dollarydoos each 
month. 


cheers,
Tony

On 30/07/2024 08:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet wrote:
When I first saw the movie /2001: A Space Odyssey/ in 1969 I was 
fascinated by HAL (I was clearly destined to work in IT!), and now 55 
years later I'd like to be able to sit down with HAL and explain some 
complex business requirement to him, converse like professionals and 
weigh-up the pros and cons of different platforms and languages based 
upon his world of experience and get him to code like a 1000x 
developer and generate a complete working skeleton of the required 
product. When will I see that? I'm a bit disappointed so far.


Oh well, back to coding with my Copilot buddy.

/Greg K/
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Re: XAML images in WPF?

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

Chaps et al,

After a few hours of experiments I have come to a waypoint decision on XAML
images. There is no *simple* one-liner way of using an image defined as
geometries in a XAML fragment. Tersely, for my mental records and in case
it helps others, here's what I found:

The image library provides images in this sample format where the outer
XAML defines a Viewbox


  
*<... resources and drawing elements ...>*
  


I copied some XAML files into a Resources folder and set all their Build
Action to Resource. Unfortunately, a bit of convert code is required to
convert the XAML into an actal Viewbox to be added to the visual tree. This
is the core of my converter code:

string uri = $"Resources/{name}.xaml";
var stream = Application.GetResourceStream(new Uri(uri,
UriKind.Relative)).Stream;
var viewBox = (Viewbox)XamlReader.Load(stream);
viewBox.Height = double.NaN;
viewBox.Width = double.NaN;
return viewBox;

The Width and Height are *unset*, otherwise they always render at 16x16. I
then combine the resources and the convert in code like this, in a MenuItem
for example:


  
<*ContentControl Content="{Binding Converter={StaticResource
AppConverter},ConverterParameter=FromXaml|OpenFolder}"*
Style="{StaticResource XamlIconStyle}"/>
  


The bold bit is the trick. This all works as I hoped, and the menu icons
display nicely, and I can draw an image as 80x80 and it also displays
scaled and crisp:

[image: image.png]

*Good news* -- This is a neat way of adding scalable images to your app,
removing the need for sets of different sizes.

*Bad news* -- The WPF designer randomly shows an error after editing the
XAML as I did above. I sometimes see squiggly warning lines, but there is
nothing wrong. I often must click *reload the designer* link and it all
displays correctly again.

*Worse news* -- I used the XAML icons in TreeView nodes where there could
be large numbers of repeated icons, so I put them in a simple Dictionary
cache. A Viewbox can only be in one place in the visual tree, so each icon
appears in the tree once, making caching useless and producing this effect:

[image: image.png]

In summary, for now I will only use XAML images where I really need
scalable images, maybe inside Buttons, Toolbars or artwork. Otherwise I'll
stick to png for basic menus and tree nodes. I'm sure there are techniques
for efficiently using XAML images everywhere, but my attention span is
expiring.

*Greg K*
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Re: AI [GitHub Copilot]

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

t;
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 3:04 PM Tom Rutter via ozdotnet <
>>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 at 12:32, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
>>>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Worse, in the baseball umpiring exam I mentioned, someone said to me
>>>>>> “isn’t that what you’d get if you just asked a whole lot of fans about 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> rules rather than asking umpires?”
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There’s probably something important about that. How does it know
>>>>>> which of the material it was trained on is valid?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep that’s the thing, it doesn’t actually know what is “valid”. From
>>>>> what I understand it just gets “pushed” in certain directions during
>>>>> training and not in all cases obviously.
>>>>>
>>>>> My experience with things like ChatGPT so far basically brings it down
>>>>> to a better Google really. Early days
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dr Greg Low
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
>>>>>>  |
>>>>>> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* mike smith via ozdotnet 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 23, 2024 12:19 PM
>>>>>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>>>>>> *Cc:* mike smith 
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: AI
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "old system views"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That makes me wonder if it has any way of differentiating between
>>>>>> something it found from a decade ago to more recent data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024, 11:43 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, <
>>>>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Tom,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For me, it depends what you want it to do. It certainly can appear to
>>>>>> help someone who’s new to an area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For most code writing, I’ve been pretty underwhelmed. As an example,
>>>>>> if I ask it to write SQL, I get a very poor outcome. It will use old
>>>>>> deprecated views instead of the current system views (that have been 
>>>>>> around
>>>>>> for a decade), and often does things in a convoluted way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I have been impressed with, is how it can help you understand
>>>>>> acronyms, etc. Quite amazing. I’ve also been pretty impressed with using 
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> go generate some test data, including in multiple languages. And the test
>>>>>> data is fairly believable. If I ask it for family names, and I also ask 
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> Chinese, it does pick common Chinese family names 

Re: AI

[Tom Gao via ozdotnet]

Hey Guys, it's been awhile since I've asked the question about the
usefulness of AI in our development world - for a seasoned senior developer
for a complex digital transformation project. Since then I've met the
microsoft board member on OpenAI and have completed an AI course at
Stanford and seen the latest and greatest at the most advanced world
leading AI lab. To be honest I think this AI thing is going to be 10 years
away to be truly useful as it is hyped to be. But this is just a personal
opinion.

I wanted to get some feedback from you guys last time michael said maybe
about 1-2% in improvement in usefulness to a seasoned dev. I've had ongoing
robust conversations. Because I feel the benefits are completely overstated
in general (open to being corrected). The most senior tech lead in my
team believe it's a negative benefit. As in it can't understand complex
business analyst requirements, nor debug codes, nor find / correct defects.
The effort to prompt engineer and also to correct what's generated is also
understated. Plenty of tools already do what chatgpt/co-pilot can do. In
this case we've experimented with github copilot which claims to
provide 55% efficiency in coding.

What's everyone's thoughts since Feb this year? - how useful is it in real
world dev tasks, building complex transformation projects from BA
requirements?

Thanks in advance,
Tom

On Sat, Feb 24, 2024 at 9:21 PM Michael Ridland via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

>
> If you’re a seasoned practitioner in the language it’s probably sitting
> around 1-2%, because it can help with some code conversions. Copilot code
> completions are amateur. For .net resharper/rider etc is actually a much
> better option than copilot, practical use of that is probably around 15%
> productivity increase.
>
> Copilot does help if you don’t know the language or technology, which
> maybe commbank staff are not skilled up enough? ;)
>
>
>
> On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 at 6:27 pm, DotNet Dude via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> I’m not a subscriber to read the entire article but 30% is a load of BS
>> at this stage
>>
>> On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 at 15:18, Tom Gao via ozdotnet 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Here's the article.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.afr.com/technology/commbank-claims-ai-is-already-making-it-work-30pc-better-20240206-p5f2uu
>>>
>>> So what does everyone think about the claim that 30% efficiency? ie to
>>> me as head of IT instead of hiring 10 developers to build applications now
>>> only 7 is required. To me that just doesn't seem realistic.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 3:04 PM Tom Rutter via ozdotnet <
>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 at 12:32, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
>>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Worse, in the baseball umpiring exam I mentioned, someone said to me
>>>>> “isn’t that what you’d get if you just asked a whole lot of fans about the
>>>>> rules rather than asking umpires?”
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There’s probably something important about that. How does it know
>>>>> which of the material it was trained on is valid?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yep that’s the thing, it doesn’t actually know what is “valid”. From
>>>> what I understand it just gets “pushed” in certain directions during
>>>> training and not in all cases obviously.
>>>>
>>>> My experience with things like ChatGPT so far basically brings it down
>>>> to a better Google really. Early days
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Greg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dr Greg Low
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>>>>>
>>>>> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
>>>>>  |
>>>>> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiM

Re: XAML images in WPF?

[Tony McGee via ozdotnet]

The Visual Studio Image Library distributes xaml icons with a root 
element of Viewbox.
It's possible to refer to the PNG files directly with Source="..."> but I'm not sure you can refer to the Viewbox xaml files 
directly, though maybe there's a pack URI dark magic incantation.


You could build each icon file as a resource in the assembly and load 
the Viewbox instance directly with using Application.GetResourceStream() 
and XamlReader.Load() and set MenuItem.Icon with a little bit of 
reusable code.  e.g. 
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/desktop/wpf/app-development/wpf-application-resource-content-and-data-files?view=netframeworkdesktop-4.8


Back when I was working with WPF more (and if I recall correctly) the 
image resources were defined in our code as DrawingImage/GeometryDrawing 
instead of Viewbox, which you could bind to Image.Source, there may be a 
tool out there to convert those VS files.


The markup method though is as you suggest, throw all viewbox elements 
into a ResourceDictionary and give each viewbox a resource key, then 
merge that resource dictionary into Window.Resources of each window xaml 
definition, or if you don't want to do that for each window add them to 
the app resources in the App.xaml file.

The resource dictionary option looks like this:

MyResourceDictionary.xaml -
xmlns="http://schemas.microsoft.com/winfx/2006/xaml/presentation;

xmlns:x="http://schemas.microsoft.com/winfx/2006/xaml;>
   


MainWindow.xaml -

  
 
    
 
  
   
   
  
 
    
 
  
   

cheers,
Tony

On 28/07/2024 17:56, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet wrote:
Folks, in a video I saw a few weeks ago I learned that the Visual 
Studio team uses XAML for most of their images, not png or similar. 
I'm keen to do the same because I imagine that I would no longer need 
tedious sets of 16x16 32x32 48x48 ... etc images because each XAML 
file is composed from scalable geometry elements that would look good 
at any size.


I downloaded the Image Library 
 which 
contains thousands of XAML, png and svg sets of standard images. But I 
can't figure out how to /simply/ use the XAML files in a WPF app. All 
the examples I can find seem to have pasted the contents of the XAML 
images into resource files and then reference them by x:Key. I don't 
want to manually paste XAML around like that, I just want to add a 
file like *FolderClosedBlue.xaml* (for example) to my project and use 
it as the icon for a menu or button as simply as possible. How can I 
replace this sort of thing?...



  
    < use the XAML image file somehow instead of a resource png? >
  


Is there some coding trick I'm not aware of to /simply/ use an image 
defined in a XAML file in my app?


Cheers, /Greg K/

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RE: XAML images in WPF?

[eddie.debear--- via ozdotnet]

Hi Greg,

 

I’m going to make a few assumptions here.. First up is that the “image” is a 
Path element defined in a resource dictionary which is then inside the xaml 
file. 

 

Next up, the path element will need to have a name defined using 
x:key=”nameofresourcehere”

 







 

 

Once you have this, then in the xaml file you want the image to be included in, 
you’ll need to import the resource, it’s a bit verbose but it will be along the 
lines of

 















 

Then to use it,





 

Hope this helps.

 

Ed.

 

From: Greg Keogh via ozdotnet  
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2024 5:57 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: Greg Keogh 
Subject: XAML images in WPF?

 

Folks, in a video I saw a few weeks ago I learned that the Visual Studio team 
uses XAML for most of their images, not png or similar. I'm keen to do the same 
because I imagine that I would no longer need tedious sets of 16x16 32x32 48x48 
... etc images because each XAML file is composed from scalable geometry 
elements that would look good at any size.

 

I downloaded the Image Library 
  which 
contains thousands of XAML, png and svg sets of standard images. But I can't 
figure out how to simply use the XAML files in a WPF app. All the examples I 
can find seem to have pasted the contents of the XAML images into resource 
files and then reference them by x:Key. I don't want to manually paste XAML 
around like that, I just want to add a file like FolderClosedBlue.xaml (for 
example) to my project and use it as the icon for a menu or button as simply as 
possible. How can I replace this sort of thing?...

 



  

< use the XAML image file somehow instead of a resource png? >

  



 

Is there some coding trick I'm not aware of to simply use an image defined in a 
XAML file in my app?

 

Cheers, Greg K

-- 
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To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: [OT] Windows Server install problems

[Nam Van via ozdotnet]

or use Linux as host and the server to a VM. It would be much more stable
that way as you don't want your host to be restarted along with Windows
update.

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 at 12:11, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> Just put the server in a vm on win11. All your problems will go away.
>>
>
> Okay, a consensus from such distinguished persons. I'm reconsidering my
> way forward -- *Greg K*
>
>
>> David Connors
>> da...@connors.com // +61 417 189 363
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 at 10:17 am, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> They took a lot of device support out of server along the way and that
 is when I stopped running it in my laptop. I'd install windows 11 and turn
 on hyper v and run server in a vm

>>>
>>> I guess this means I must shop around for a hardware combination (or a
>>> whole box) that specifically runs the latest Windows servers. The price of
>>> that is worrying, and I need do the research. I've been lucky for the last
>>> 20 years because old work PCs could be rebranded as home servers without
>>> any hiccups at all -- *Greg*
>>> --
>>> ozdotnet mailing list
>>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>>
>> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
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Re: Active Directory lookup

[Piers Williams via ozdotnet]

I'm a bit confused by this, because this is exactly the type of scenario
where Network Service *does *make sense (I thought).

It's not true to say that Network Service 'isn't a domain user' - it is,
but presents as the identity of the hosting *machine *(ie domain\machine$
not domain\network service). But I'd be amazed if that needed special
permissions to talk to AD (after all - surely the same underlying
credentials and operations are underlying Win32 LookupAccountName), and
Stack Overflow concurs (in 2011 at least): .net - Query Active Directory
under NT AUTHORITY/NETWORK SERVICE - Stack Overflow


I think there's something else going on here.

On Fri, 24 May 2024 at 07:09, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> TGIF!
>
> I just spiced-up an ASP.NET app so that it uses DirectorySearch.FindOne
> 
> to either verify a login user account exists or to authenticate. It runs
> perfectly on my work PC, but when I installed the app in IIS on my test
> server it died with *The specified domain either does not exist or could
> not be contacted*. I discovered that because my app was running as
> NETWORK SERVICE, which isn't a domain user, it can't see the Active
> Directory.
>
> A trap...only domain user accounts can *see* AD. Asking the customer (a
> hospital) to create a special account, assign it to the pool and set ACLs
> is impractical. My lovely new login feature has hit a roadblock and I'm not
> sure of a workaround or alternative. It's a specialist topic, but I thought
> I'd ask in here just in case some boffin has suggestions.
>
> *Greg Keogh*
>
> P.S. I just remembered that about 15 years ago I used a Win32 Interop to
> call LoginUser
> 
> for a similar purpose, but it was for local accounts and I'll need to
> research if it works for domain accounts.
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/



-- 
piers
-- 
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Re: Active Directory lookup

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

I have found the answer. I record it here in case it helps someone in the
future.

While avoiding AD, if you simply want to check if an account exists either
locally or in the default domain do this:

uint sidSize = 0;
uint domainSize = 0;
int accountType = 0;
bool b1 = LookupAccountName
(null,
user, null, ref sidSize, null, ref domainSize, ref accountType);
int err2 = Marshal.GetLastWin32Error();
if (err2 == 0x007a) { *the account exists (insufficient buffer)* }
else if (err2 == 0x0534) { *account not found (no mapping)* }
else { *some bad error code* }

If you want to authenicate an account credentials then call LoginUser
,
there are lots of examples.

*Greg*

On Fri, 24 May 2024 at 09:06, Greg Keogh  wrote:

> TGIF!
>
> I just spiced-up an ASP.NET app so that it uses DirectorySearch.FindOne
> 
> to either verify a login user account exists or to authenticate. It runs
> perfectly on my work PC, but when I installed the app in IIS on my test
> server it died with *The specified domain either does not exist or could
> not be contacted*. I discovered that because my app was running as
> NETWORK SERVICE, which isn't a domain user, it can't see the Active
> Directory.
>
> A trap...only domain user accounts can *see* AD. Asking the customer (a
> hospital) to create a special account, assign it to the pool and set ACLs
> is impractical. My lovely new login feature has hit a roadblock and I'm not
> sure of a workaround or alternative. It's a specialist topic, but I thought
> I'd ask in here just in case some boffin has suggestions.
>
> *Greg Keogh*
>
> P.S. I just remembered that about 15 years ago I used a Win32 Interop to
> call LoginUser
> 
> for a similar purpose, but it was for local accounts and I'll need to
> research if it works for domain accounts.
>
-- 
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To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: [OT] Windows Server install problems

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

>
> Just put the server in a vm on win11. All your problems will go away.
>

Okay, a consensus from such distinguished persons. I'm reconsidering my way
forward -- *Greg K*


> David Connors
> da...@connors.com // +61 417 189 363
>
>
> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 at 10:17 am, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> They took a lot of device support out of server along the way and that is
>>> when I stopped running it in my laptop. I'd install windows 11 and turn on
>>> hyper v and run server in a vm
>>>
>>
>> I guess this means I must shop around for a hardware combination (or a
>> whole box) that specifically runs the latest Windows servers. The price of
>> that is worrying, and I need do the research. I've been lucky for the last
>> 20 years because old work PCs could be rebranded as home servers without
>> any hiccups at all -- *Greg*
>> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
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To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: [OT] Windows Server install problems

[David Connors via ozdotnet]

Just put the server in a vm on win11. All your problems will go away.

David Connors
da...@connors.com // +61 417 189 363


On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 at 10:17 am, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> They took a lot of device support out of server along the way and that is
>> when I stopped running it in my laptop. I'd install windows 11 and turn on
>> hyper v and run server in a vm
>>
>
> I guess this means I must shop around for a hardware combination (or a
> whole box) that specifically runs the latest Windows servers. The price of
> that is worrying, and I need do the research. I've been lucky for the last
> 20 years because old work PCs could be rebranded as home servers without
> any hiccups at all -- *Greg*
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
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To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

RE: [OT] Windows Server install problems

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

+1 vote for just running the Win servers in VMs on Windows 11.

Works well.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: 
https://sqldownunder.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
 | About Greg:  
https://about.me/greg.low<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>

From: Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2024 11:15 AM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: Greg Keogh 
Subject: Re: [OT] Windows Server install problems

They took a lot of device support out of server along the way and that is when 
I stopped running it in my laptop. I'd install windows 11 and turn on hyper v 
and run server in a vm

I guess this means I must shop around for a hardware combination (or a whole 
box) that specifically runs the latest Windows servers. The price of that is 
worrying, and I need do the research. I've been lucky for the last 20 years 
because old work PCs could be rebranded as home servers without any hiccups at 
all -- Greg
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Re: [OT] Windows Server install problems

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

>
> They took a lot of device support out of server along the way and that is
> when I stopped running it in my laptop. I'd install windows 11 and turn on
> hyper v and run server in a vm
>

I guess this means I must shop around for a hardware combination (or a
whole box) that specifically runs the latest Windows servers. The price of
that is worrying, and I need do the research. I've been lucky for the last
20 years because old work PCs could be rebranded as home servers without
any hiccups at all -- *Greg*
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: [OT] Windows Server install problems

[David Connors via ozdotnet]

They took a lot of device support out of server along the way and that is
when I stopped running it in my laptop. I'd install windows 11 and turn on
hyper v and run server in a vm

David Connors
da...@connors.com // +61 417 189 363


On Fri, 15 Mar 2024 at 16:32, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> Folks, it's been a non-TGIF day. My old server under the desk running
> Server 2019 (or 2016 I forget) died this morning and I'm trying to create a
> replacement
>
> I have a brand new *one of these*
> ,
> so I installed Server 2019 and it all went smoothly until it booted and all
> chipset devices are dead, including the network adapter and the screen is
> stuck at SGA. The only drivers I can find are for Windows 7 to 11 and
> nothing else.
>
> I tried installing 2016 as an experiment but it produces the same results.
>
> Am I wasting my time? Is that box incapable of running recent Windows
> Server editions?
>
> *Thanks, Greg*
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
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Re: AI

[Michael Ridland via ozdotnet]

If you’re a seasoned practitioner in the language it’s probably sitting
around 1-2%, because it can help with some code conversions. Copilot code
completions are amateur. For .net resharper/rider etc is actually a much
better option than copilot, practical use of that is probably around 15%
productivity increase.

Copilot does help if you don’t know the language or technology, which maybe
commbank staff are not skilled up enough? ;)



On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 at 6:27 pm, DotNet Dude via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> I’m not a subscriber to read the entire article but 30% is a load of BS at
> this stage
>
> On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 at 15:18, Tom Gao via ozdotnet 
> wrote:
>
>> Here's the article.
>>
>>
>> https://www.afr.com/technology/commbank-claims-ai-is-already-making-it-work-30pc-better-20240206-p5f2uu
>>
>> So what does everyone think about the claim that 30% efficiency? ie to me
>> as head of IT instead of hiring 10 developers to build applications now
>> only 7 is required. To me that just doesn't seem realistic.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 3:04 PM Tom Rutter via ozdotnet <
>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 at 12:32, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Worse, in the baseball umpiring exam I mentioned, someone said to me
>>>> “isn’t that what you’d get if you just asked a whole lot of fans about the
>>>> rules rather than asking umpires?”
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There’s probably something important about that. How does it know which
>>>> of the material it was trained on is valid?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yep that’s the thing, it doesn’t actually know what is “valid”. From
>>> what I understand it just gets “pushed” in certain directions during
>>> training and not in all cases obviously.
>>>
>>> My experience with things like ChatGPT so far basically brings it down
>>> to a better Google really. Early days
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dr Greg Low
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>>>>
>>>> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
>>>>  |
>>>> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* mike smith via ozdotnet 
>>>>
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 23, 2024 12:19 PM
>>>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>>>> *Cc:* mike smith 
>>>> *Subject:* Re: AI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "old system views"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That makes me wonder if it has any way of differentiating between
>>>> something it found from a decade ago to more recent data.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024, 11:43 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, <
>>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Tom,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For me, it depends what you want it to do. It certainly can appear to
>>>> help someone who’s new to an area.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For most code writing, I’ve been pretty underwhelmed. As an example, if
>>>> I ask it to write SQL, I get a very poor outcome. It will use old
>>>> deprecated views instead of the current system views (that have been around
>>>> for a decade), and often does things in a convoluted way.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What I have been impressed with, is how it can help you understand
>>>> acronyms, etc. Quite ama

Re: AI

[DotNet Dude via ozdotnet]

I’m not a subscriber to read the entire article but 30% is a load of BS at
this stage

On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 at 15:18, Tom Gao via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> Here's the article.
>
>
> https://www.afr.com/technology/commbank-claims-ai-is-already-making-it-work-30pc-better-20240206-p5f2uu
>
> So what does everyone think about the claim that 30% efficiency? ie to me
> as head of IT instead of hiring 10 developers to build applications now
> only 7 is required. To me that just doesn't seem realistic.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 3:04 PM Tom Rutter via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 at 12:32, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Worse, in the baseball umpiring exam I mentioned, someone said to me
>>> “isn’t that what you’d get if you just asked a whole lot of fans about the
>>> rules rather than asking umpires?”
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There’s probably something important about that. How does it know which
>>> of the material it was trained on is valid?
>>>
>>
>> Yep that’s the thing, it doesn’t actually know what is “valid”. From what
>> I understand it just gets “pushed” in certain directions during training
>> and not in all cases obviously.
>>
>> My experience with things like ChatGPT so far basically brings it down to
>> a better Google really. Early days
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Greg Low
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>>>
>>> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
>>>  |
>>> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* mike smith via ozdotnet 
>>>
>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 23, 2024 12:19 PM
>>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>>> *Cc:* mike smith 
>>> *Subject:* Re: AI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "old system views"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That makes me wonder if it has any way of differentiating between
>>> something it found from a decade ago to more recent data.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024, 11:43 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, <
>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Tom,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For me, it depends what you want it to do. It certainly can appear to
>>> help someone who’s new to an area.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For most code writing, I’ve been pretty underwhelmed. As an example, if
>>> I ask it to write SQL, I get a very poor outcome. It will use old
>>> deprecated views instead of the current system views (that have been around
>>> for a decade), and often does things in a convoluted way.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What I have been impressed with, is how it can help you understand
>>> acronyms, etc. Quite amazing. I’ve also been pretty impressed with using it
>>> go generate some test data, including in multiple languages. And the test
>>> data is fairly believable. If I ask it for family names, and I also ask for
>>> Chinese, it does pick common Chinese family names in the test output.
>>> That’s pretty impressive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It can do a reasonable job of things like “here’s some DAX code, can you
>>> simplify it?” It often can. Or “here’s a regular expression, can you
>>> explain what it does?” and it does that just fine. I’ve seen people happily
>>> using it to explain code that they don’t understand, or to (sort of)
>>> document some code.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But it also is so confident on things, yet so wrong. I gave it a 25
>>> question baseball umpire test the other day. It was 100% confident
>>> 

Re: AI

[Tom Gao via ozdotnet]

Here's the article.

https://www.afr.com/technology/commbank-claims-ai-is-already-making-it-work-30pc-better-20240206-p5f2uu

So what does everyone think about the claim that 30% efficiency? ie to me
as head of IT instead of hiring 10 developers to build applications now
only 7 is required. To me that just doesn't seem realistic.



On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 3:04 PM Tom Rutter via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

>
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 at 12:32, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Worse, in the baseball umpiring exam I mentioned, someone said to me
>> “isn’t that what you’d get if you just asked a whole lot of fans about the
>> rules rather than asking umpires?”
>>
>>
>>
>> There’s probably something important about that. How does it know which
>> of the material it was trained on is valid?
>>
>
> Yep that’s the thing, it doesn’t actually know what is “valid”. From what
> I understand it just gets “pushed” in certain directions during training
> and not in all cases obviously.
>
> My experience with things like ChatGPT so far basically brings it down to
> a better Google really. Early days
>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Greg Low
>>
>>
>>
>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>>
>> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
>>  |
>> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* mike smith via ozdotnet 
>>
>> *Sent:* Friday, February 23, 2024 12:19 PM
>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>> *Cc:* mike smith 
>> *Subject:* Re: AI
>>
>>
>>
>> "old system views"
>>
>>
>>
>> That makes me wonder if it has any way of differentiating between
>> something it found from a decade ago to more recent data.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024, 11:43 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, <
>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>>
>>
>> For me, it depends what you want it to do. It certainly can appear to
>> help someone who’s new to an area.
>>
>>
>>
>> For most code writing, I’ve been pretty underwhelmed. As an example, if I
>> ask it to write SQL, I get a very poor outcome. It will use old deprecated
>> views instead of the current system views (that have been around for a
>> decade), and often does things in a convoluted way.
>>
>>
>>
>> What I have been impressed with, is how it can help you understand
>> acronyms, etc. Quite amazing. I’ve also been pretty impressed with using it
>> go generate some test data, including in multiple languages. And the test
>> data is fairly believable. If I ask it for family names, and I also ask for
>> Chinese, it does pick common Chinese family names in the test output.
>> That’s pretty impressive.
>>
>>
>>
>> It can do a reasonable job of things like “here’s some DAX code, can you
>> simplify it?” It often can. Or “here’s a regular expression, can you
>> explain what it does?” and it does that just fine. I’ve seen people happily
>> using it to explain code that they don’t understand, or to (sort of)
>> document some code.
>>
>>
>>
>> But it also is so confident on things, yet so wrong. I gave it a 25
>> question baseball umpire test the other day. It was 100% confident
>> sounding, but 40% correct. The weird thing is that some of the questions
>> that it got right, are things that new human umpires often get wrong. Yet
>> for simpler questions, it would say that something legal is illegal.
>>
>>
>>
>> It’s certainly interesting, but it’s very much a work in progress. It
>> will be part of our futures.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Greg Low
>>
>>
>>
>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>>
>> SQL Down Un

Re: AI

[Tom Rutter via ozdotnet]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 at 12:32, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> Worse, in the baseball umpiring exam I mentioned, someone said to me
> “isn’t that what you’d get if you just asked a whole lot of fans about the
> rules rather than asking umpires?”
>
>
>
> There’s probably something important about that. How does it know which of
> the material it was trained on is valid?
>

Yep that’s the thing, it doesn’t actually know what is “valid”. From what I
understand it just gets “pushed” in certain directions during training and
not in all cases obviously.

My experience with things like ChatGPT so far basically brings it down to a
better Google really. Early days


>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
>  |
> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>
>
>
>
> *From:* mike smith via ozdotnet 
>
> *Sent:* Friday, February 23, 2024 12:19 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* mike smith 
> *Subject:* Re: AI
>
>
>
> "old system views"
>
>
>
> That makes me wonder if it has any way of differentiating between
> something it found from a decade ago to more recent data.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024, 11:43 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Tom,
>
>
>
> For me, it depends what you want it to do. It certainly can appear to help
> someone who’s new to an area.
>
>
>
> For most code writing, I’ve been pretty underwhelmed. As an example, if I
> ask it to write SQL, I get a very poor outcome. It will use old deprecated
> views instead of the current system views (that have been around for a
> decade), and often does things in a convoluted way.
>
>
>
> What I have been impressed with, is how it can help you understand
> acronyms, etc. Quite amazing. I’ve also been pretty impressed with using it
> go generate some test data, including in multiple languages. And the test
> data is fairly believable. If I ask it for family names, and I also ask for
> Chinese, it does pick common Chinese family names in the test output.
> That’s pretty impressive.
>
>
>
> It can do a reasonable job of things like “here’s some DAX code, can you
> simplify it?” It often can. Or “here’s a regular expression, can you
> explain what it does?” and it does that just fine. I’ve seen people happily
> using it to explain code that they don’t understand, or to (sort of)
> document some code.
>
>
>
> But it also is so confident on things, yet so wrong. I gave it a 25
> question baseball umpire test the other day. It was 100% confident
> sounding, but 40% correct. The weird thing is that some of the questions
> that it got right, are things that new human umpires often get wrong. Yet
> for simpler questions, it would say that something legal is illegal.
>
>
>
> It’s certainly interesting, but it’s very much a work in progress. It will
> be part of our futures.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
>  |
> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>
>
>
>
> *From:* Tom Gao via ozdotnet 
> *Sent:* Friday, February 23, 2024 11:58 AM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* Tom Gao 
> *Subject:* AI
>
>
>
> Hi guys, I haven't posted in a few years and haven'

Re: AI

[Tony Wright via ozdotnet]

nd...head to stack overflow.
>>
>>>
>>>
>> On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 12:25 PM Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There were other things I should have mentioned.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The new PowerPoint co-pilot where you just say “Prepare me a
>>> presentation about what’s in xyz.docx” is pretty amazing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I’ve used ChatGPT to rewrite marketing blurb for various things. It does
>>> that very well. However, I’ve asked it to improve a paragraph of writing,
>>> and find that something like the Hemmingway editor does a far superior job.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In Teams, having the AI tool write a summary of what just happened in a
>>> meeting is pretty stunning.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We are going to just be using these tools all day long.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Greg Low
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>>>
>>> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
>>>  |
>>> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Dr Greg Low
>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 23, 2024 12:11 PM
>>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>>> *Cc:* Tom Gao 
>>> *Subject:* RE: AI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Tom,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For me, it depends what you want it to do. It certainly can appear to
>>> help someone who’s new to an area.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For most code writing, I’ve been pretty underwhelmed. As an example, if
>>> I ask it to write SQL, I get a very poor outcome. It will use old
>>> deprecated views instead of the current system views (that have been around
>>> for a decade), and often does things in a convoluted way.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What I have been impressed with, is how it can help you understand
>>> acronyms, etc. Quite amazing. I’ve also been pretty impressed with using it
>>> go generate some test data, including in multiple languages. And the test
>>> data is fairly believable. If I ask it for family names, and I also ask for
>>> Chinese, it does pick common Chinese family names in the test output.
>>> That’s pretty impressive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It can do a reasonable job of things like “here’s some DAX code, can you
>>> simplify it?” It often can. Or “here’s a regular expression, can you
>>> explain what it does?” and it does that just fine. I’ve seen people happily
>>> using it to explain code that they don’t understand, or to (sort of)
>>> document some code.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But it also is so confident on things, yet so wrong. I gave it a 25
>>> question baseball umpire test the other day. It was 100% confident
>>> sounding, but 40% correct. The weird thing is that some of the questions
>>> that it got right, are things that new human umpires often get wrong. Yet
>>> for simpler questions, it would say that something legal is illegal.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It’s certainly interesting, but it’s very much a work in progress. It
>>> will be part of our futures.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Greg Low
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>>>
>>> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7

Re: AI

[Tony Wright via ozdotnet]

I have also asked it to perform code reviews on code. It's pretty good at
refactoring code, and giving you pointers on improvements. When staff raise
pull requests, I have my own ideas, but I can also get Copilot to provide
suggestions. (I also have Github Copilot, which work provides)  It's very
good for help in understanding what historic code does too.

In general I find it an invaluable tool. It won't be replacing us any time
soon, but people that aren't using it will be less productive. Does it make
me 30% more efficient? I don't "feel" it, but there's probably a lot of
research time I am saving, and perhaps I don't even realise all the
benefits it's giving me.

On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 12:33 PM Tony Wright  wrote:

> I call it my "low IQ assistant". If I have some menial task that I don't
> feel like coding, I ask the AI to do it for me and it's usually pretty good
> - except that you do need to check everything! You could ask a junior to do
> the same thing.
>
> I have tested a number of AIs with a bunch of tech questions and the one
> that got by far the highest score was Bing Chat - that said I didn't have
> access to GPT-4 and Bing Chat is essentially GPT-4 but for free. It's now
> called Copilot.
>
> I also use it for assisting in comprehending business requirements. I take
> a doco and ask it to group common themes and produce summaries of the
> requirements. Like most developers, my attention would be
> struggling otherwise. I can also ask it to act like a BDD expert and
> produce Gherkin statements for the testers.
>
> It helps a lot when I get stuck on a problem. I often get a much better
> answer if I ask Bing Chat than if I try to Google it. That could, of
> course, be a consequence of how bad Google has become at providing an
> answer. Sometimes other people in the team have issues and they come to me
> with a much more sophisticated problem. This might mean that I don't even
> know the context of the issue they are having, but I can interrogate Bing
> Chat and it will give me a response that is quite helpful in many cases.
>
> It helps when I want to get started on a new problem. I can ask it what I
> think I need to know and it often returns answers that help me fine tune
> what I am trying to do. Sometimes that requires multiple interactions. If
> I'm looking for a new library to solve a problem, I can ask it for advice
> on what to look at. It is often helpful, but sometimes makes wrong
> assumptions about what I am trying to achieve. The important thing is it
> gives me an idea of some libraries to consider.
>
> Finally, there comes a point at which its value drops and I am getting
> better at detecting when that happens and...head to stack overflow.
>
>>
>>
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 12:25 PM Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> There were other things I should have mentioned.
>>
>>
>>
>> The new PowerPoint co-pilot where you just say “Prepare me a presentation
>> about what’s in xyz.docx” is pretty amazing.
>>
>>
>>
>> I’ve used ChatGPT to rewrite marketing blurb for various things. It does
>> that very well. However, I’ve asked it to improve a paragraph of writing,
>> and find that something like the Hemmingway editor does a far superior job.
>>
>>
>>
>> In Teams, having the AI tool write a summary of what just happened in a
>> meeting is pretty stunning.
>>
>>
>>
>> We are going to just be using these tools all day long.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Greg Low
>>
>>
>>
>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>>
>> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
>>  |
>> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Dr Greg Low
>> *Sent:* Friday, February 23, 2024 12:11 PM
>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>> *Cc:* Tom Gao 
>> *Subject:* RE: AI
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Tom,
>>
>>
>>
>> For me, it depends what you want it t

Re: AI

[Tony Wright via ozdotnet]

I call it my "low IQ assistant". If I have some menial task that I don't
feel like coding, I ask the AI to do it for me and it's usually pretty good
- except that you do need to check everything! You could ask a junior to do
the same thing.

I have tested a number of AIs with a bunch of tech questions and the one
that got by far the highest score was Bing Chat - that said I didn't have
access to GPT-4 and Bing Chat is essentially GPT-4 but for free. It's now
called Copilot.

I also use it for assisting in comprehending business requirements. I take
a doco and ask it to group common themes and produce summaries of the
requirements. Like most developers, my attention would be
struggling otherwise. I can also ask it to act like a BDD expert and
produce Gherkin statements for the testers.

It helps a lot when I get stuck on a problem. I often get a much better
answer if I ask Bing Chat than if I try to Google it. That could, of
course, be a consequence of how bad Google has become at providing an
answer. Sometimes other people in the team have issues and they come to me
with a much more sophisticated problem. This might mean that I don't even
know the context of the issue they are having, but I can interrogate Bing
Chat and it will give me a response that is quite helpful in many cases.

It helps when I want to get started on a new problem. I can ask it what I
think I need to know and it often returns answers that help me fine tune
what I am trying to do. Sometimes that requires multiple interactions. If
I'm looking for a new library to solve a problem, I can ask it for advice
on what to look at. It is often helpful, but sometimes makes wrong
assumptions about what I am trying to achieve. The important thing is it
gives me an idea of some libraries to consider.

Finally, there comes a point at which its value drops and I am getting
better at detecting when that happens and...head to stack overflow.

>
>
On Fri, Feb 23, 2024 at 12:25 PM Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> There were other things I should have mentioned.
>
>
>
> The new PowerPoint co-pilot where you just say “Prepare me a presentation
> about what’s in xyz.docx” is pretty amazing.
>
>
>
> I’ve used ChatGPT to rewrite marketing blurb for various things. It does
> that very well. However, I’ve asked it to improve a paragraph of writing,
> and find that something like the Hemmingway editor does a far superior job.
>
>
>
> In Teams, having the AI tool write a summary of what just happened in a
> meeting is pretty stunning.
>
>
>
> We are going to just be using these tools all day long.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
>  |
> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>
>
>
>
> *From:* Dr Greg Low
> *Sent:* Friday, February 23, 2024 12:11 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* Tom Gao 
> *Subject:* RE: AI
>
>
>
> Hi Tom,
>
>
>
> For me, it depends what you want it to do. It certainly can appear to help
> someone who’s new to an area.
>
>
>
> For most code writing, I’ve been pretty underwhelmed. As an example, if I
> ask it to write SQL, I get a very poor outcome. It will use old deprecated
> views instead of the current system views (that have been around for a
> decade), and often does things in a convoluted way.
>
>
>
> What I have been impressed with, is how it can help you understand
> acronyms, etc. Quite amazing. I’ve also been pretty impressed with using it
> go generate some test data, including in multiple languages. And the test
> data is fairly believable. If I ask it for family names, and I also ask for
> Chinese, it does pick common Chinese family names in the test output.
> That’s pretty impressive.
>
>
>
> It can do a reasonable job of things like “here’s some DAX code, can you
> simplify it?” It often can. Or “here’s a regular expression, can you
> explain what it does?” and it does that just fine. I’ve seen people happily
> using it to explain code that they don’t understand, or to (sort of)
> document some code.
>
>

RE: AI

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

Worse, in the baseball umpiring exam I mentioned, someone said to me “isn’t 
that what you’d get if you just asked a whole lot of fans about the rules 
rather than asking umpires?”

There’s probably something important about that. How does it know which of the 
material it was trained on is valid?

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: 
https://sqldownunder.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
 | About Greg:  
https://about.me/greg.low<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>

From: mike smith via ozdotnet 
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2024 12:19 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: mike smith 
Subject: Re: AI

"old system views"

That makes me wonder if it has any way of differentiating between something it 
found from a decade ago to more recent data.

Mike
On Fri, 23 Feb 2024, 11:43 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote:
Hi Tom,

For me, it depends what you want it to do. It certainly can appear to help 
someone who’s new to an area.

For most code writing, I’ve been pretty underwhelmed. As an example, if I ask 
it to write SQL, I get a very poor outcome. It will use old deprecated views 
instead of the current system views (that have been around for a decade), and 
often does things in a convoluted way.

What I have been impressed with, is how it can help you understand acronyms, 
etc. Quite amazing. I’ve also been pretty impressed with using it go generate 
some test data, including in multiple languages. And the test data is fairly 
believable. If I ask it for family names, and I also ask for Chinese, it does 
pick common Chinese family names in the test output. That’s pretty impressive.

It can do a reasonable job of things like “here’s some DAX code, can you 
simplify it?” It often can. Or “here’s a regular expression, can you explain 
what it does?” and it does that just fine. I’ve seen people happily using it to 
explain code that they don’t understand, or to (sort of) document some code.

But it also is so confident on things, yet so wrong. I gave it a 25 question 
baseball umpire test the other day. It was 100% confident sounding, but 40% 
correct. The weird thing is that some of the questions that it got right, are 
things that new human umpires often get wrong. Yet for simpler questions, it 
would say that something legal is illegal.

It’s certainly interesting, but it’s very much a work in progress. It will be 
part of our futures.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: 
https://sqldownunder.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
 | About Greg:  
https://about.me/greg.low<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>

From: Tom Gao via ozdotnet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2024 11:58 AM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: Tom Gao mailto:t...@tomgao.com>>
Subject: AI

Hi guys, I haven't posted in a few years and haven't been on the tools for a 
long time now as well. I'm on a panel on a digital conference coming up in 
march. We had a pre meeting today and the topic of AI came up. Two of the 
panelist said cited CBA and Westpac using AI and were able to save 30% on 
development effort.

Personally I just finished an AI course my view is quite the opposite. My 
personal opinion of the generative AI space and AI in general having spent time 
with the academics is that the benefits are significantly over inflated.

I want to get some other opinions if you are seeing any significant benefit and 
that I may be just out of touch or not aware.

Thanks,
Tom
--
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RE: AI

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

There were other things I should have mentioned.

The new PowerPoint co-pilot where you just say “Prepare me a presentation about 
what’s in xyz.docx” is pretty amazing.

I’ve used ChatGPT to rewrite marketing blurb for various things. It does that 
very well. However, I’ve asked it to improve a paragraph of writing, and find 
that something like the Hemmingway editor does a far superior job.

In Teams, having the AI tool write a summary of what just happened in a meeting 
is pretty stunning.

We are going to just be using these tools all day long.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: 
https://sqldownunder.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
 | About Greg:  
https://about.me/greg.low<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>

From: Dr Greg Low
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2024 12:11 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: Tom Gao 
Subject: RE: AI

Hi Tom,

For me, it depends what you want it to do. It certainly can appear to help 
someone who’s new to an area.

For most code writing, I’ve been pretty underwhelmed. As an example, if I ask 
it to write SQL, I get a very poor outcome. It will use old deprecated views 
instead of the current system views (that have been around for a decade), and 
often does things in a convoluted way.

What I have been impressed with, is how it can help you understand acronyms, 
etc. Quite amazing. I’ve also been pretty impressed with using it go generate 
some test data, including in multiple languages. And the test data is fairly 
believable. If I ask it for family names, and I also ask for Chinese, it does 
pick common Chinese family names in the test output. That’s pretty impressive.

It can do a reasonable job of things like “here’s some DAX code, can you 
simplify it?” It often can. Or “here’s a regular expression, can you explain 
what it does?” and it does that just fine. I’ve seen people happily using it to 
explain code that they don’t understand, or to (sort of) document some code.

But it also is so confident on things, yet so wrong. I gave it a 25 question 
baseball umpire test the other day. It was 100% confident sounding, but 40% 
correct. The weird thing is that some of the questions that it got right, are 
things that new human umpires often get wrong. Yet for simpler questions, it 
would say that something legal is illegal.

It’s certainly interesting, but it’s very much a work in progress. It will be 
part of our futures.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: 
https://sqldownunder.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
 | About Greg:  
https://about.me/greg.low<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>

From: Tom Gao via ozdotnet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2024 11:58 AM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: Tom Gao mailto:t...@tomgao.com>>
Subject: AI

Hi guys, I haven't posted in a few years and haven't been on the tools for a 
long time now as well. I'm on a panel on a digital conference coming up in 
march. We had a pre meeting today and the topic of AI came up. Two of the 
panelist said cited CBA and Westpac using AI and were able to save 30% on 
development effort.

Personally I just finished an AI course my view is quite the opposite. My 
personal opinion of the generative AI space and AI in general having spent time 
with the academics is that the benefits are significantly over inflated.

I want to get some other opinions if you are seeing any significant benefit and 
that I may be just out of touch or not aware.

Thanks,
Tom
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: AI

[mike smith via ozdotnet]

"old system views"

That makes me wonder if it has any way of differentiating between something
it found from a decade ago to more recent data.

Mike

On Fri, 23 Feb 2024, 11:43 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, 
wrote:

> Hi Tom,
>
>
>
> For me, it depends what you want it to do. It certainly can appear to help
> someone who’s new to an area.
>
>
>
> For most code writing, I’ve been pretty underwhelmed. As an example, if I
> ask it to write SQL, I get a very poor outcome. It will use old deprecated
> views instead of the current system views (that have been around for a
> decade), and often does things in a convoluted way.
>
>
>
> What I have been impressed with, is how it can help you understand
> acronyms, etc. Quite amazing. I’ve also been pretty impressed with using it
> go generate some test data, including in multiple languages. And the test
> data is fairly believable. If I ask it for family names, and I also ask for
> Chinese, it does pick common Chinese family names in the test output.
> That’s pretty impressive.
>
>
>
> It can do a reasonable job of things like “here’s some DAX code, can you
> simplify it?” It often can. Or “here’s a regular expression, can you
> explain what it does?” and it does that just fine. I’ve seen people happily
> using it to explain code that they don’t understand, or to (sort of)
> document some code.
>
>
>
> But it also is so confident on things, yet so wrong. I gave it a 25
> question baseball umpire test the other day. It was 100% confident
> sounding, but 40% correct. The weird thing is that some of the questions
> that it got right, are things that new human umpires often get wrong. Yet
> for simpler questions, it would say that something legal is illegal.
>
>
>
> It’s certainly interesting, but it’s very much a work in progress. It will
> be part of our futures.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
> 
>  |
> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
> 
>
>
>
> *From:* Tom Gao via ozdotnet 
> *Sent:* Friday, February 23, 2024 11:58 AM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* Tom Gao 
> *Subject:* AI
>
>
>
> Hi guys, I haven't posted in a few years and haven't been on the tools for
> a long time now as well. I'm on a panel on a digital conference coming up
> in march. We had a pre meeting today and the topic of AI came up. Two of
> the panelist said cited CBA and Westpac using AI and were able to save 30%
> on development effort.
>
>
>
> Personally I just finished an AI course my view is quite the opposite. My
> personal opinion of the generative AI space and AI in general having spent
> time with the academics is that the benefits are significantly over
> inflated.
>
>
>
> I want to get some other opinions if you are seeing any significant
> benefit and that I may be just out of touch or not aware.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tom
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
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RE: AI

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

Hi Tom,

For me, it depends what you want it to do. It certainly can appear to help 
someone who’s new to an area.

For most code writing, I’ve been pretty underwhelmed. As an example, if I ask 
it to write SQL, I get a very poor outcome. It will use old deprecated views 
instead of the current system views (that have been around for a decade), and 
often does things in a convoluted way.

What I have been impressed with, is how it can help you understand acronyms, 
etc. Quite amazing. I’ve also been pretty impressed with using it go generate 
some test data, including in multiple languages. And the test data is fairly 
believable. If I ask it for family names, and I also ask for Chinese, it does 
pick common Chinese family names in the test output. That’s pretty impressive.

It can do a reasonable job of things like “here’s some DAX code, can you 
simplify it?” It often can. Or “here’s a regular expression, can you explain 
what it does?” and it does that just fine. I’ve seen people happily using it to 
explain code that they don’t understand, or to (sort of) document some code.

But it also is so confident on things, yet so wrong. I gave it a 25 question 
baseball umpire test the other day. It was 100% confident sounding, but 40% 
correct. The weird thing is that some of the questions that it got right, are 
things that new human umpires often get wrong. Yet for simpler questions, it 
would say that something legal is illegal.

It’s certainly interesting, but it’s very much a work in progress. It will be 
part of our futures.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: 
https://sqldownunder.com
 | About Greg:  
https://about.me/greg.low

From: Tom Gao via ozdotnet 
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2024 11:58 AM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: Tom Gao 
Subject: AI

Hi guys, I haven't posted in a few years and haven't been on the tools for a 
long time now as well. I'm on a panel on a digital conference coming up in 
march. We had a pre meeting today and the topic of AI came up. Two of the 
panelist said cited CBA and Westpac using AI and were able to save 30% on 
development effort.

Personally I just finished an AI course my view is quite the opposite. My 
personal opinion of the generative AI space and AI in general having spent time 
with the academics is that the benefits are significantly over inflated.

I want to get some other opinions if you are seeing any significant benefit and 
that I may be just out of touch or not aware.

Thanks,
Tom
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: CPU profiling an MS unit test

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

Nah. When you click start, it starts whichever project is set to Start,
which in my case was some WinForms old test project of no use. You can't
set a library to start.

I created a mini test project which did some CPU and IO work. If I start
the profiler it starts and waits, and when I run a unit test method it
reports nothing useful, just a [System Code] execution. In release mode the
profile just starts and stops while I've done nothing. All I can get is:

[image: image.png]

I'll wager that Chat GPT is smarter than me, so there's probably a way of
profiling a unit test, but my feeble biased human brain can't find it yet.
If it is possible and I can't find it, then the VS team needs to have a
chat to Chat GPT and ask it how to improve discoverability.

*Greg K*


> In the Performance Profiler, several profiling options are available, such
> as CPU Usage, Memory Usage, etc. For CPU performance, ensure CPU Usage is
> checked.
> Click Start.
> Run the Specific Test:
>
> The profiler will start, and Visual Studio will switch to a profiling
> mode. Now, navigate to the Test Explorer.
> Find the [TestMethod] you want to profile.
> Right-click on the test method and select Run. If your test project
> contains multiple tests and you only want to profile a specific one, make
> sure only that test is set to run.
>
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Re: CPU profiling an MS unit test

[Greg Harris via ozdotnet]

I asked Chat GPT...

Far too late at night for me to read / understand the response

How do I run a CPU performance profiler over a [TestMethod] in my c# unit
test project.
ChatGPT
Running a CPU performance profiler over a [TestMethod] in your C# unit test
project involves several steps and can be accomplished using various tools.
The most straightforward way to profile a specific test method is to use
Visual Studio's built-in performance profiling tools, assuming you are
using Visual Studio. Here's how to do it:

Using Visual Studio Performance Profiler
Prepare Your Test Project:
Ensure that your unit test project is correctly set up and that the
[TestMethod] you wish to profile can be executed successfully.

Open Performance Profiler:

In Visual Studio, go to the Debug menu.
Select Performance Profiler This option might be found under Other
Windows or Profile in different versions of Visual Studio.
Choose the Profiling Method:

In the Performance Profiler, several profiling options are available, such
as CPU Usage, Memory Usage, etc. For CPU performance, ensure CPU Usage is
checked.
Click Start.
Run the Specific Test:

The profiler will start, and Visual Studio will switch to a profiling mode.
Now, navigate to the Test Explorer.
Find the [TestMethod] you want to profile.
Right-click on the test method and select Run. If your test project
contains multiple tests and you only want to profile a specific one, make
sure only that test is set to run.
Analyze the Results:

Once the test completes, the Performance Profiler will gather the CPU usage
data and present it to you.
You can analyze the report to see where most of the CPU time is spent. The
report will show you the call tree, hot paths, and other details that help
identify performance bottlenecks.
Tips for Effective Profiling:
Isolate the Test: If possible, isolate the test you are profiling to
minimize noise from other tests or operations.

Use Release Mode: Run your tests in Release mode rather than Debug mode to
get a more accurate representation of performance, as the compiler
optimizations are different.

Repeat Tests: To ensure consistency, consider running the profiler multiple
times and averaging the results, as performance can vary from run to run.

Alternative Tools:
If you're not using Visual Studio or if you're looking for more advanced
profiling options, there are several third-party tools available that can
profile .NET applications, such as:

JetBrains dotTrace: A performance profiler for .NET applications that can
integrate with unit testing frameworks to profile specific tests.
Redgate ANTS Performance Profiler: Another profiler that can attach to .NET
processes, including test runners, to gather performance data.
Visual Studio Code with Extensions: If you're using Visual Studio Code,
extensions like .NET Core Test Explorer can be used in conjunction with
external profiling tools.
When using third-party tools, the general approach involves running your
unit test suite with the profiler attached, similar to how you would
profile any .NET application. However, the specifics will vary based on the
tool, so consult the documentation for detailed instructions.

Remember, performance profiling can sometimes introduce its own overhead,
so interpret the results with an understanding of what might be profiling
artifacts versus genuine performance issues in your code.

Greg Harris




On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 2:10 PM Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> It's not Friday, but I can't find any way of running the CPU performance
> profiler over a [TestMethod] in my unit test project.
>
> Web searches produce no useful results, some hint that I can right-click a
> test in the test explorer and pick Profile..., but I have no such menu.
>
> Is this possible or not? If so, what's the trick?
>
> P.S. I often use the profiler for commands or GUI apps, but in that case
> you set breakpoint #1 and start the profiler, then at breakpoint #2 you
> stop it and collect the results. That doesn't work for a unit test method
> (so far...).
>
> *Greg*
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
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Re: Private Apple App distribution

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

>
> Perhaps not ideal but maybe the app can go into the app store but nobody
> can actually use it without an account which you would only allow your
> users to create. Just an idea.
>

Each phone running the app needs its app-generated ID registered in a
master XML file, so the public can't run it, which makes forcing it into
the store somewhat stupid -- *Greg*


>
>
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 at 14:48, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> We're planning a MAUI app to be installed on company Android and Apple
>> phones. For Android I can just generate the APK file and side-load it
>> (after the security settings are relaxed). I don't know how to do the same
>> for iPhones. We don't want the app in the store. Assuming there is a
>> convention for "side-loading" Apple apps, what's the technique? Is anyone
>> doing this?
>>
>> A few years ago we published a Xamarin app, but it was for the public and
>> was published in both stores. This time the app's private to the company.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> *Greg Keogh*
>> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
> --
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RE: Private Apple App distribution

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

And even more changes from Apple:

https://www.macrumors.com/2024/01/16/us-app-store-alternative-purchase-option/?utm_source=tldrwebdev

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: 
https://sqldownunder.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
 | About Greg:  
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From: Dr Greg Low
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2024 5:21 PM
To: 'ozDotNet' 
Cc: Greg Keogh 
Subject: RE: Private Apple App distribution

Are you in the Apple Developer program? I’m guessing there might be a test 
option there.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: 
https://sqldownunder.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
 | About Greg:  
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From: Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2024 4:46 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: Greg Keogh mailto:gfke...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: Private Apple App distribution

So you're all telling me that there is no "side load" feature for iPhone apps?! 
This is a dreadful obstacle to getting the app onto company staff phones. 
Luckily I have an Apple account that was recently renewed (for 150 goddamn $), 
but I'll have to fill-in all the store compliance documentation and make keys 
and fumble through their cryptic alien processes, and so on and on. Goddammit 
again.

GK
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Private Apple App distribution

[Tom Rutter via ozdotnet]

Perhaps not ideal but maybe the app can go into the app store but nobody
can actually use it without an account which you would only allow your
users to create. Just an idea.


On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 at 14:48, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> Folks,
>
> We're planning a MAUI app to be installed on company Android and Apple
> phones. For Android I can just generate the APK file and side-load it
> (after the security settings are relaxed). I don't know how to do the same
> for iPhones. We don't want the app in the store. Assuming there is a
> convention for "side-loading" Apple apps, what's the technique? Is anyone
> doing this?
>
> A few years ago we published a Xamarin app, but it was for the public and
> was published in both stores. This time the app's private to the company.
>
> Thanks,
> *Greg Keogh*
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
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Re: Private Apple App distribution

[David Richards via ozdotnet]

You can use an MDM. MacOS has one but it's not suitable for enterprise. If
you're only serving a few hundred devices, it might be good enough. You
have to set it up via Apple Business Manager. It's pretty crappy and chokes
under any kind of load so I don't recommend. We moved away from this as it
was not suitable. We were using it for about 2000ish devices. Not sure who
made that decision :)

There are others out there like Microsoft's Intune, SOTI, etc.

But all of these require employees to trust the company so none of them
really meet your side loading requirement. I wouldn't install any of these
things on my personal phone. Depending on the profile installed, the
company can do all kinds of stuff to your phone.

Someone mentioned TestFlight but that's no good either as each release
times out after 90 days and you have to build a new release with a new
version number to get it back. Then everyone has to agree to test the new
version each time. This is a major hassle. It makes version management a
pain when it gets out of sync with Android for no real reason.

David

"If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes
 will fall like a house of cards... checkmate!"
 -Zapp Brannigan, Futurama


On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 at 16:51, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> So you're all telling me that there is no "side load" feature for iPhone
> apps?! This is a dreadful obstacle to getting the app onto company staff
> phones. Luckily I have an Apple account that was recently renewed (for 150
> goddamn $), but I'll have to fill-in all the store compliance documentation
> and make keys and fumble through their cryptic alien processes, and so on
> and on. Goddammit again.
>
> *GK*
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
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To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Private Apple App distribution

[David Connors via ozdotnet]

Yeah you can use testflight to distribute betas and set up an enterprise
area in the app store for your own enterprise apps to be distributed to
enterprise enrolled devices.

Not the same as sideloading a random executable though and you're still
subject to Apple's review process etc.

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 at 16:22, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> Are you in the Apple Developer program? I’m guessing there might be a test
> option there.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
>  |
> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2024 4:46 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* Greg Keogh 
> *Subject:* Re: Private Apple App distribution
>
>
>
> So you're all telling me that there is no "side load" feature for iPhone
> apps?! This is a dreadful obstacle to getting the app onto company staff
> phones. Luckily I have an Apple account that was recently renewed (for 150
> goddamn $), but I'll have to fill-in all the store compliance documentation
> and make keys and fumble through their cryptic alien processes, and so on
> and on. Goddammit again.
>
>
>
> *GK*
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

RE: Private Apple App distribution

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

Are you in the Apple Developer program? I’m guessing there might be a test 
option there.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: 
https://sqldownunder.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
 | About Greg:  
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From: Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2024 4:46 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: Greg Keogh 
Subject: Re: Private Apple App distribution

So you're all telling me that there is no "side load" feature for iPhone apps?! 
This is a dreadful obstacle to getting the app onto company staff phones. 
Luckily I have an Apple account that was recently renewed (for 150 goddamn $), 
but I'll have to fill-in all the store compliance documentation and make keys 
and fumble through their cryptic alien processes, and so on and on. Goddammit 
again.

GK
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Private Apple App distribution

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

So you're all telling me that there is no "side load" feature for iPhone
apps?! This is a dreadful obstacle to getting the app onto company staff
phones. Luckily I have an Apple account that was recently renewed (for 150
goddamn $), but I'll have to fill-in all the store compliance documentation
and make keys and fumble through their cryptic alien processes, and so on
and on. Goddammit again.

*GK*
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Private Apple App distribution

[David Connors via ozdotnet]

The Pro and Pro Max do, the others don't.



On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 at 15:35, mike smith via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> They're not even doing full speed USB C iirc
>
> We've come full circle: remember db25 connections, the only thing standard
> was the connector.
>
> Mike
>
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024, 15:45 David Connors via ozdotnet, <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Yeah they did for iPhone 15 - still sell the old ones with Lightning, and
>> most headphones, and mice, and trackpads, and probably other things.
>>
>> I love how Apple used the argument that they didn't want to be forced to
>> do it because it would stifle innovation - meanwhile they're selling
>> lightning that runs at USB 2.0 speeds while the rest of the planet has
>> moved on.
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 at 15:08, mike smith via ozdotnet <
>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Didn't the Euros make them go to USB C?
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024, 15:31 David Connors via ozdotnet, <
>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>
 I am sure other countries will jump on board once the technical
 precedence has been set.

 Apple can be very stubborn in holding on to old/dumb ideas. They're
 still selling stuff with lightning connector in 2024.

 On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 at 14:12, mike smith via ozdotnet <
 ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> So the "way" will be to use a VPN, and set your Apple devices up in
> Europe?
>
> I'm wondering if any other countries will jump on board.
>
> Mike
>
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024, 14:29 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Interesting that there’s been a discussion going on with the EU about
>> this. They’re insisting that Apple allow “side-loading” of apps. In
>> response, Apple has apparently said they’re splitting their app store 
>> with
>> one for EU, and one for the rest of the world.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Greg Low
>>
>>
>>
>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>>
>> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
>> 
>>  |
>> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2024 2:46 PM
>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>> *Cc:* Greg Keogh 
>> *Subject:* Private Apple App distribution
>>
>>
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> We're planning a MAUI app to be installed on company Android and
>> Apple phones. For Android I can just generate the APK file and side-load 
>> it
>> (after the security settings are relaxed). I don't know how to do the 
>> same
>> for iPhones. We don't want the app in the store. Assuming there is a
>> convention for "side-loading" Apple apps, what's the technique? Is anyone
>> doing this?
>>
>>
>>
>> A few years ago we published a Xamarin app, but it was for the public
>> and was published in both stores. This time the app's private to the
>> company.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> *Greg Keogh*
>> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives:
> https://codify.mailman3.com/

 --
 ozdotnet mailing list
 To manage your subscription, access archives:
 https://codify.mailman3.com/
>>>
>>> --
>>> ozdotnet mailing list
>>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>>
>> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
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Re: Private Apple App distribution

[mike smith via ozdotnet]

They're not even doing full speed USB C iirc

We've come full circle: remember db25 connections, the only thing standard
was the connector.

Mike

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024, 15:45 David Connors via ozdotnet, <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> Yeah they did for iPhone 15 - still sell the old ones with Lightning, and
> most headphones, and mice, and trackpads, and probably other things.
>
> I love how Apple used the argument that they didn't want to be forced to
> do it because it would stifle innovation - meanwhile they're selling
> lightning that runs at USB 2.0 speeds while the rest of the planet has
> moved on.
>
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 at 15:08, mike smith via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Didn't the Euros make them go to USB C?
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024, 15:31 David Connors via ozdotnet, <
>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am sure other countries will jump on board once the technical
>>> precedence has been set.
>>>
>>> Apple can be very stubborn in holding on to old/dumb ideas. They're
>>> still selling stuff with lightning connector in 2024.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 at 14:12, mike smith via ozdotnet <
>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>
 So the "way" will be to use a VPN, and set your Apple devices up in
 Europe?

 I'm wondering if any other countries will jump on board.

 Mike

 On Wed, 17 Jan 2024, 14:29 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, <
 ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> Interesting that there’s been a discussion going on with the EU about
> this. They’re insisting that Apple allow “side-loading” of apps. In
> response, Apple has apparently said they’re splitting their app store with
> one for EU, and one for the rest of the world.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
> 
>  |
> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
> 
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2024 2:46 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* Greg Keogh 
> *Subject:* Private Apple App distribution
>
>
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> We're planning a MAUI app to be installed on company Android and Apple
> phones. For Android I can just generate the APK file and side-load it
> (after the security settings are relaxed). I don't know how to do the same
> for iPhones. We don't want the app in the store. Assuming there is a
> convention for "side-loading" Apple apps, what's the technique? Is anyone
> doing this?
>
>
>
> A few years ago we published a Xamarin app, but it was for the public
> and was published in both stores. This time the app's private to the
> company.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> *Greg Keogh*
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives:
> https://codify.mailman3.com/

 --
 ozdotnet mailing list
 To manage your subscription, access archives:
 https://codify.mailman3.com/
>>>
>>> --
>>> ozdotnet mailing list
>>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>>
>> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Private Apple App distribution

[David Connors via ozdotnet]

Yeah they did for iPhone 15 - still sell the old ones with Lightning, and
most headphones, and mice, and trackpads, and probably other things.

I love how Apple used the argument that they didn't want to be forced to do
it because it would stifle innovation - meanwhile they're selling lightning
that runs at USB 2.0 speeds while the rest of the planet has moved on.

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 at 15:08, mike smith via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> Didn't the Euros make them go to USB C?
>
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024, 15:31 David Connors via ozdotnet, <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> I am sure other countries will jump on board once the technical
>> precedence has been set.
>>
>> Apple can be very stubborn in holding on to old/dumb ideas. They're still
>> selling stuff with lightning connector in 2024.
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 at 14:12, mike smith via ozdotnet <
>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> So the "way" will be to use a VPN, and set your Apple devices up in
>>> Europe?
>>>
>>> I'm wondering if any other countries will jump on board.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024, 14:29 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, <
>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>
 Interesting that there’s been a discussion going on with the EU about
 this. They’re insisting that Apple allow “side-loading” of apps. In
 response, Apple has apparently said they’re splitting their app store with
 one for EU, and one for the rest of the world.



 Regards,



 Greg



 Dr Greg Low



 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile

 SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
 
  |
 About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
 



 *From:* Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
 *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2024 2:46 PM
 *To:* ozDotNet 
 *Cc:* Greg Keogh 
 *Subject:* Private Apple App distribution



 Folks,



 We're planning a MAUI app to be installed on company Android and Apple
 phones. For Android I can just generate the APK file and side-load it
 (after the security settings are relaxed). I don't know how to do the same
 for iPhones. We don't want the app in the store. Assuming there is a
 convention for "side-loading" Apple apps, what's the technique? Is anyone
 doing this?



 A few years ago we published a Xamarin app, but it was for the public
 and was published in both stores. This time the app's private to the
 company.



 Thanks,

 *Greg Keogh*
 --
 ozdotnet mailing list
 To manage your subscription, access archives:
 https://codify.mailman3.com/
>>>
>>> --
>>> ozdotnet mailing list
>>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>>
>> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
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Re: Private Apple App distribution

[mike smith via ozdotnet]

Didn't the Euros make them go to USB C?

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024, 15:31 David Connors via ozdotnet, <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> I am sure other countries will jump on board once the technical
> precedence has been set.
>
> Apple can be very stubborn in holding on to old/dumb ideas. They're still
> selling stuff with lightning connector in 2024.
>
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 at 14:12, mike smith via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> So the "way" will be to use a VPN, and set your Apple devices up in
>> Europe?
>>
>> I'm wondering if any other countries will jump on board.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024, 14:29 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, <
>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting that there’s been a discussion going on with the EU about
>>> this. They’re insisting that Apple allow “side-loading” of apps. In
>>> response, Apple has apparently said they’re splitting their app store with
>>> one for EU, and one for the rest of the world.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr Greg Low
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>>>
>>> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
>>> 
>>>  |
>>> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2024 2:46 PM
>>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>>> *Cc:* Greg Keogh 
>>> *Subject:* Private Apple App distribution
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We're planning a MAUI app to be installed on company Android and Apple
>>> phones. For Android I can just generate the APK file and side-load it
>>> (after the security settings are relaxed). I don't know how to do the same
>>> for iPhones. We don't want the app in the store. Assuming there is a
>>> convention for "side-loading" Apple apps, what's the technique? Is anyone
>>> doing this?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A few years ago we published a Xamarin app, but it was for the public
>>> and was published in both stores. This time the app's private to the
>>> company.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> *Greg Keogh*
>>> --
>>> ozdotnet mailing list
>>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>>
>> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
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Re: Private Apple App distribution

[David Connors via ozdotnet]

I am sure other countries will jump on board once the technical
precedence has been set.

Apple can be very stubborn in holding on to old/dumb ideas. They're still
selling stuff with lightning connector in 2024.

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024 at 14:12, mike smith via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> So the "way" will be to use a VPN, and set your Apple devices up in Europe?
>
> I'm wondering if any other countries will jump on board.
>
> Mike
>
> On Wed, 17 Jan 2024, 14:29 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Interesting that there’s been a discussion going on with the EU about
>> this. They’re insisting that Apple allow “side-loading” of apps. In
>> response, Apple has apparently said they’re splitting their app store with
>> one for EU, and one for the rest of the world.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Greg Low
>>
>>
>>
>> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>>
>> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
>> 
>>  |
>> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2024 2:46 PM
>> *To:* ozDotNet 
>> *Cc:* Greg Keogh 
>> *Subject:* Private Apple App distribution
>>
>>
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> We're planning a MAUI app to be installed on company Android and Apple
>> phones. For Android I can just generate the APK file and side-load it
>> (after the security settings are relaxed). I don't know how to do the same
>> for iPhones. We don't want the app in the store. Assuming there is a
>> convention for "side-loading" Apple apps, what's the technique? Is anyone
>> doing this?
>>
>>
>>
>> A few years ago we published a Xamarin app, but it was for the public and
>> was published in both stores. This time the app's private to the company.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> *Greg Keogh*
>> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
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RE: Private Apple App distribution

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]



I like the lateral thinking.

I wonder if it will be based on the user’s home location, or where the phone is.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: 
https://sqldownunder.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
 | About Greg:  
https://about.me/greg.low<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>

From: mike smith via ozdotnet 
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2024 3:11 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: mike smith 
Subject: Re: Private Apple App distribution

So the "way" will be to use a VPN, and set your Apple devices up in Europe?

I'm wondering if any other countries will jump on board.

Mike
On Wed, 17 Jan 2024, 14:29 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote:
Interesting that there’s been a discussion going on with the EU about this. 
They’re insisting that Apple allow “side-loading” of apps. In response, Apple 
has apparently said they’re splitting their app store with one for EU, and one 
for the rest of the world.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: 
https://sqldownunder.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
 | About Greg:  
https://about.me/greg.low<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>

From: Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2024 2:46 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: Greg Keogh mailto:gfke...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Private Apple App distribution

Folks,

We're planning a MAUI app to be installed on company Android and Apple phones. 
For Android I can just generate the APK file and side-load it (after the 
security settings are relaxed). I don't know how to do the same for iPhones. We 
don't want the app in the store. Assuming there is a convention for 
"side-loading" Apple apps, what's the technique? Is anyone doing this?

A few years ago we published a Xamarin app, but it was for the public and was 
published in both stores. This time the app's private to the company.

Thanks,
Greg Keogh
--
ozdotnet mailing list
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
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To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Private Apple App distribution

[mike smith via ozdotnet]

So the "way" will be to use a VPN, and set your Apple devices up in Europe?

I'm wondering if any other countries will jump on board.

Mike

On Wed, 17 Jan 2024, 14:29 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, 
wrote:

> Interesting that there’s been a discussion going on with the EU about
> this. They’re insisting that Apple allow “side-loading” of apps. In
> response, Apple has apparently said they’re splitting their app store with
> one for EU, and one for the rest of the world.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
> 
>  |
> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
> 
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 17, 2024 2:46 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* Greg Keogh 
> *Subject:* Private Apple App distribution
>
>
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> We're planning a MAUI app to be installed on company Android and Apple
> phones. For Android I can just generate the APK file and side-load it
> (after the security settings are relaxed). I don't know how to do the same
> for iPhones. We don't want the app in the store. Assuming there is a
> convention for "side-loading" Apple apps, what's the technique? Is anyone
> doing this?
>
>
>
> A few years ago we published a Xamarin app, but it was for the public and
> was published in both stores. This time the app's private to the company.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> *Greg Keogh*
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

RE: Private Apple App distribution

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

Interesting that there’s been a discussion going on with the EU about this. 
They’re insisting that Apple allow “side-loading” of apps. In response, Apple 
has apparently said they’re splitting their app store with one for EU, and one 
for the rest of the world.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: 
https://sqldownunder.com
 | About Greg:  
https://about.me/greg.low

From: Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2024 2:46 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: Greg Keogh 
Subject: Private Apple App distribution

Folks,

We're planning a MAUI app to be installed on company Android and Apple phones. 
For Android I can just generate the APK file and side-load it (after the 
security settings are relaxed). I don't know how to do the same for iPhones. We 
don't want the app in the store. Assuming there is a convention for 
"side-loading" Apple apps, what's the technique? Is anyone doing this?

A few years ago we published a Xamarin app, but it was for the public and was 
published in both stores. This time the app's private to the company.

Thanks,
Greg Keogh
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Web app large uploads and downloads

[Craig vN via ozdotnet]

I haven't tried with hundreds of files uploaded in one batch, would need to
start accounting for retry if they fail. But a few files of 100mb is no
problem.

On Wed, Jan 3, 2024 at 11:14 AM Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> Folks (welcome to the distant future of 2024)
>
> I'm pretty sure that there is no sensible way to provide a bulk Azure Blob
> upload facility in a web hosted app (Wasm, JS or whatever). There could be
> thousands of files with a total size up to hundreds of MB. Managers are
> currently using a WPF program I created for uploads and it feels like a
> perfectly natural process on the desktop, and it's pretty fast using
> streams on multi cores (I also optionally check for new or changed so only
> *diffs* are uploaded which often saves a lot of time).
>
> None of the components or controls I've seen are designed for huge
> uploads, and in any case, I've reported that it's technically and usability
> questionable to have "normal" users of the browser app doing this sort of
> thing. The boss of the app suite is now considering the bigger picture and
> the bulk upload feature may be delayed or moved to somewhere else in the
> flow, or the desktop program will suffice. So I'm happy the issue is
> on-hold for now.
>
> I think this is a good example of how the web browser should never have
> evolved into a host for business apps. I think the web browser, HTML, HTTP,
> REST, css and JS have diseased 21st century IT.
>
>
> *Greg K*
>
>> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Web app large uploads and downloads

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

I think it's been using azcopy for a fair while now. Azcopy has improved
dramatically over the last few years to have more switches and options. I
recently used it to bulk copy a container in one storage account to
another, then bulk upload all files with certain extensions (which wasn't
originally possible). In each case it was harder than refining fissionable
uranium, so I pasted the skeletons of the working commands into my "bag of
tricks" text file. The Blazor bulk upload is mercifully on hold while they
reconsider who should have the facility -- *Greg K*

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 16:27, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> I notice that the Azure Storage Explorer desktop app nowadays defaults to
> using azcopy under the covers to copy files. That’s a much better option
> for files of any size. Probably need a component that does that but azcopy
> has a few dependencies.
>
>
>
> It’s on GitHub as open source so you could probably check out how it does
> what it does. It’s sure fast and filesize isn’t an issue. I’ve used azcopy
> on multi-terabyte files without issue. (Apart from the hosting provider for
> the site calling to find out what was going on, given the way it worked in
> parallel and flooded their network)
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
>  |
> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>
>
>
>
> *From:* DotNet Dude via ozdotnet 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 3, 2024 4:17 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* DotNet Dude 
> *Subject:* Re: Web app large uploads and downloads
>
>
>
> Yep we usually do this sort of thing with a batch process, particularly if
> there are large files. I don’t see any web app being used just to upload a
> bunch of files.
>
>
>
> For fun try asking ChatGPT or one of the others to see where they go.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 11:13, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
> Folks (welcome to the distant future of 2024)
>
>
>
> I'm pretty sure that there is no sensible way to provide a bulk Azure Blob
> upload facility in a web hosted app (Wasm, JS or whatever). There could be
> thousands of files with a total size up to hundreds of MB. Managers are
> currently using a WPF program I created for uploads and it feels like a
> perfectly natural process on the desktop, and it's pretty fast using
> streams on multi cores (I also optionally check for new or changed so only
> *diffs* are uploaded which often saves a lot of time).
>
>
>
> None of the components or controls I've seen are designed for huge
> uploads, and in any case, I've reported that it's technically and usability
> questionable to have "normal" users of the browser app doing this sort of
> thing. The boss of the app suite is now considering the bigger picture and
> the bulk upload feature may be delayed or moved to somewhere else in the
> flow, or the desktop program will suffice. So I'm happy the issue is
> on-hold for now.
>
>
>
> I think this is a good example of how the web browser should never have
> evolved into a host for business apps. I think the web browser, HTML, HTTP,
> REST, css and JS have diseased 21st century IT.
>
>
>
> *Greg K*
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Web app large uploads and downloads

[mike smith via ozdotnet]

It's not a direct answer, but I'd feel happier uploading to OneDrive and
passing the server a link to that.

Mike

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023, 08:29 Greg Keogh via ozdotnet, 
wrote:

> Folks (anyone working?)
>
> I've been asked to add a feature to a Blazor Webassembly app to allow
> uploads and downloads of possibly large numbers of files between the local
> file system and Blob storage. I'm not sure how to implement this feature in
> a browser hosted app.
>
> I wrote a WPF tool for "managers" which does high-performance bulk uploads
> and downloads with nice progress (the code is trivial on the desktop), but
> now they want the same feature for "normal" users in the Blazor app. Given
> how dumb and restricted browser hosted apps are, I don't know how to code
> this, or if it's even feasible.
>
> Are there some tools, techniques or tricks I can apply? Any ideas or
> suggestions anyone?
>
> Thanks,
> *Greg Keogh*
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
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To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

RE: Web app large uploads and downloads

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

I notice that the Azure Storage Explorer desktop app nowadays defaults to using 
azcopy under the covers to copy files. That’s a much better option for files of 
any size. Probably need a component that does that but azcopy has a few 
dependencies.

It’s on GitHub as open source so you could probably check out how it does what 
it does. It’s sure fast and filesize isn’t an issue. I’ve used azcopy on 
multi-terabyte files without issue. (Apart from the hosting provider for the 
site calling to find out what was going on, given the way it worked in parallel 
and flooded their network)

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: 
https://sqldownunder.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sqldownunder.com_=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=o3oFliHztOF8D9Nbqaa7KQdqC-zkQNXWl4IqnEG58Wc=>
 | About Greg:  
https://about.me/greg.low<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__about.me_greg.low=DwMFAg=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM=2rgtwrXggQFZiZbisdwDooYFalucb-vLhjG0McaanBZKn0UVuognuHqfHnjp2AVc=I23jyX4AKIv9q2x7A3CQAer9PGCjq8R6DwW7BE1IAhZ1JbigKMrMPRCjs6AqW7h3=NsAibgiqfCxsyc8m2DBKogKQcs3OqE3mkyCjmpoYxTk=>

From: DotNet Dude via ozdotnet 
Sent: Wednesday, January 3, 2024 4:17 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: DotNet Dude 
Subject: Re: Web app large uploads and downloads

Yep we usually do this sort of thing with a batch process, particularly if 
there are large files. I don’t see any web app being used just to upload a 
bunch of files.

For fun try asking ChatGPT or one of the others to see where they go.

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 11:13, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote:
Folks (welcome to the distant future of 2024)

I'm pretty sure that there is no sensible way to provide a bulk Azure Blob 
upload facility in a web hosted app (Wasm, JS or whatever). There could be 
thousands of files with a total size up to hundreds of MB. Managers are 
currently using a WPF program I created for uploads and it feels like a 
perfectly natural process on the desktop, and it's pretty fast using streams on 
multi cores (I also optionally check for new or changed so only diffs are 
uploaded which often saves a lot of time).

None of the components or controls I've seen are designed for huge uploads, and 
in any case, I've reported that it's technically and usability questionable to 
have "normal" users of the browser app doing this sort of thing. The boss of 
the app suite is now considering the bigger picture and the bulk upload feature 
may be delayed or moved to somewhere else in the flow, or the desktop program 
will suffice. So I'm happy the issue is on-hold for now.

I think this is a good example of how the web browser should never have evolved 
into a host for business apps. I think the web browser, HTML, HTTP, REST, css 
and JS have diseased 21st century IT.

Greg K
--
ozdotnet mailing list
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-- 
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Re: Web app large uploads and downloads

[DotNet Dude via ozdotnet]

Yep we usually do this sort of thing with a batch process, particularly if
there are large files. I don’t see any web app being used just to upload a
bunch of files.

For fun try asking ChatGPT or one of the others to see where they go.

On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 at 11:13, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> Folks (welcome to the distant future of 2024)
>
> I'm pretty sure that there is no sensible way to provide a bulk Azure Blob
> upload facility in a web hosted app (Wasm, JS or whatever). There could be
> thousands of files with a total size up to hundreds of MB. Managers are
> currently using a WPF program I created for uploads and it feels like a
> perfectly natural process on the desktop, and it's pretty fast using
> streams on multi cores (I also optionally check for new or changed so only
> *diffs* are uploaded which often saves a lot of time).
>
> None of the components or controls I've seen are designed for huge
> uploads, and in any case, I've reported that it's technically and usability
> questionable to have "normal" users of the browser app doing this sort of
> thing. The boss of the app suite is now considering the bigger picture and
> the bulk upload feature may be delayed or moved to somewhere else in the
> flow, or the desktop program will suffice. So I'm happy the issue is
> on-hold for now.
>
> I think this is a good example of how the web browser should never have
> evolved into a host for business apps. I think the web browser, HTML, HTTP,
> REST, css and JS have diseased 21st century IT.
>
>
> *Greg K*
>
>> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Web app large uploads and downloads

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

Folks (welcome to the distant future of 2024)

I'm pretty sure that there is no sensible way to provide a bulk Azure Blob
upload facility in a web hosted app (Wasm, JS or whatever). There could be
thousands of files with a total size up to hundreds of MB. Managers are
currently using a WPF program I created for uploads and it feels like a
perfectly natural process on the desktop, and it's pretty fast using
streams on multi cores (I also optionally check for new or changed so only
*diffs* are uploaded which often saves a lot of time).

None of the components or controls I've seen are designed for huge uploads,
and in any case, I've reported that it's technically and usability
questionable to have "normal" users of the browser app doing this sort of
thing. The boss of the app suite is now considering the bigger picture and
the bulk upload feature may be delayed or moved to somewhere else in the
flow, or the desktop program will suffice. So I'm happy the issue is
on-hold for now.

I think this is a good example of how the web browser should never have
evolved into a host for business apps. I think the web browser, HTML, HTTP,
REST, css and JS have diseased 21st century IT.


*Greg K*

>
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Web app large uploads and downloads

[Tom P via ozdotnet]

I assume you have a client Blazor wasm app that uploads the file to a
server app (ie web api) which would then upload to azure or wherever. Is
this what you are asking?

Thanks
Tom


On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 at 10:19, Craig vN via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> I don't know Blazor, but there are a ton of pure Js file uploaders. One I
> like is https://www.dropzone.dev/ which should be able to be configured
> to upload directly to blog storage, ie not have to send the files to your
> webserver first
> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/35456197/upload-file-directly-to-azure-blob-storage-with-sas-using-dropzone-js
>
> On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 8:59 AM Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Folks (anyone working?)
>>
>> I've been asked to add a feature to a Blazor Webassembly app to allow
>> uploads and downloads of possibly large numbers of files between the local
>> file system and Blob storage. I'm not sure how to implement this feature in
>> a browser hosted app.
>>
>> I wrote a WPF tool for "managers" which does high-performance bulk
>> uploads and downloads with nice progress (the code is trivial on the
>> desktop), but now they want the same feature for "normal" users in the
>> Blazor app. Given how dumb and restricted browser hosted apps are, I don't
>> know how to code this, or if it's even feasible.
>>
>> Are there some tools, techniques or tricks I can apply? Any ideas or
>> suggestions anyone?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> *Greg Keogh*
>>
> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
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Re: Web app large uploads and downloads

[Craig vN via ozdotnet]

I don't know Blazor, but there are a ton of pure Js file uploaders. One I
like is https://www.dropzone.dev/ which should be able to be configured to
upload directly to blog storage, ie not have to send the files to your
webserver first
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/35456197/upload-file-directly-to-azure-blob-storage-with-sas-using-dropzone-js

On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 8:59 AM Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> Folks (anyone working?)
>
> I've been asked to add a feature to a Blazor Webassembly app to allow
> uploads and downloads of possibly large numbers of files between the local
> file system and Blob storage. I'm not sure how to implement this feature in
> a browser hosted app.
>
> I wrote a WPF tool for "managers" which does high-performance bulk uploads
> and downloads with nice progress (the code is trivial on the desktop), but
> now they want the same feature for "normal" users in the Blazor app. Given
> how dumb and restricted browser hosted apps are, I don't know how to code
> this, or if it's even feasible.
>
> Are there some tools, techniques or tricks I can apply? Any ideas or
> suggestions anyone?
>
> Thanks,
> *Greg Keogh*
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
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Re: Web app large uploads and downloads

[kirsten greed via ozdotnet]

How about this one?
https://demos.devexpress.com/blazor/Upload

On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 10:06 AM Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
>
>
> Are you using any Blazor frameworks? Several of them seem to have pretty
> good file upload components. That might give the best experience.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com
> 
>  |
> About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low
> 
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 30, 2023 8:58 AM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* Greg Keogh 
> *Subject:* Web app large uploads and downloads
>
>
>
> Folks (anyone working?)
>
>
>
> I've been asked to add a feature to a Blazor Webassembly app to allow
> uploads and downloads of possibly large numbers of files between the local
> file system and Blob storage. I'm not sure how to implement this feature in
> a browser hosted app.
>
>
>
> I wrote a WPF tool for "managers" which does high-performance bulk uploads
> and downloads with nice progress (the code is trivial on the desktop), but
> now they want the same feature for "normal" users in the Blazor app. Given
> how dumb and restricted browser hosted apps are, I don't know how to code
> this, or if it's even feasible.
>
>
>
> Are there some tools, techniques or tricks I can apply? Any ideas or
> suggestions anyone?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> *Greg Keogh*
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

RE: Web app large uploads and downloads

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

Hi Greg,

Are you using any Blazor frameworks? Several of them seem to have pretty good 
file upload components. That might give the best experience.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: 
https://sqldownunder.com
 | About Greg:  
https://about.me/greg.low

From: Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2023 8:58 AM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: Greg Keogh 
Subject: Web app large uploads and downloads

Folks (anyone working?)

I've been asked to add a feature to a Blazor Webassembly app to allow uploads 
and downloads of possibly large numbers of files between the local file system 
and Blob storage. I'm not sure how to implement this feature in a browser 
hosted app.

I wrote a WPF tool for "managers" which does high-performance bulk uploads and 
downloads with nice progress (the code is trivial on the desktop), but now they 
want the same feature for "normal" users in the Blazor app. Given how dumb and 
restricted browser hosted apps are, I don't know how to code this, or if it's 
even feasible.

Are there some tools, techniques or tricks I can apply? Any ideas or 
suggestions anyone?

Thanks,
Greg Keogh
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: [OT] Contracting PAYG vs ABN

[Steven Parish via ozdotnet]

Hi Dan,

Great explanation and I concur with your info based on my accountants advice 
with respect to the “Personal Services Business” and the implications.
I think the extra burden of the paperwork/insurances/BAS etc is worth the 
freedom it gives for being the master of your own destiny with respect to 
controlling your finances. But everyone is different.
Kind Regards,
Steven Parish
From: Dan Cash via ozdotnet 
Date: Tuesday, 12 December 2023 at 4:56 am
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: Tom P , Dan Cash 
Subject: Re: [OT] Contracting PAYG vs ABN
Recommendation

If this is your "one job" ,  the cost and hassle of GST and PAYG  accounting,  
quarterly / annual reporting probably make working through the ABN more trouble 
than its worth.


Background

For contracting,  ABN is frequently tied to a company ("Interposed Entity") 
setup both as a Services vehicle and circuit breaker to limit your personal 
liability for contractual reasons.The Agency contracts your company, your 
company employs you.

If you work through any ABN, you'll work need to register as a PAYG Employer 
and SGC Contributor.


ABN ("Personal Services Business")  == PAYG + "Extra Paperwork"

If you take a 12 month contract +2 renewals, your ABN would represent a 
"Personal Services Business" that cannot carry retained earnings from year to 
year.  All business earnings after GST is treated as your Gross PAYG Income, 
your PAYG  Tax return will  look very similar either way.

So why use an ABN?

1. Many contractors have side-gigs, maintain  their own commercial software, or 
take a new contract every three months.  With enough income from  Secondary 
sources, they may avoid PSB determination.

2. Some contractors direct income to a Family trust, permitting wealth 
distribution across the family to minimise tax.

3.  For most ABN Holders, it's just easier to carry the same accounting 
structure to manage banking/ deductions,  SGC etc regardless of where the 
money's coming from today.

4.  Some use an ABN to avoid being treated as a "wages" employee to the Agency, 
and take control of their own money.  Agencies will often "keep" a portion of 
your contract income to "pay"  you between contracts / for sick leave.  They 
may even keep a portion for "long service leave". For true employees these 
are "on-costs", and come off the company's bottom line.   For contractors, 
they're inventing ways to keep your money in their bank account longer.  They 
can't try this with ABN holders.

So it's really a question of whether 1/12th of your money is better earning 
interest in the Agency's bank account or yours.   If cash runs through your 
fingers like drops of rain, then the Agency's PAYG plan is for You!   (You can 
probably ask them NOT to retain anything when setting up your contract, 
regardless of ABN.  Discuss with your Agent).

ABN (company)Too hard?

Twenty years ago you needed a company to setup your own Superfund and PIPL, 
lease a vehicle or claim deductions.  But you could also pay your partner as 
bookkeeper.  Gradual tightening of Australia's Company, Tax and Super 
legislation has eroded any real benefit from running a Personal Services 
Business through a company, while adding the overhead of quarterly or monthly 
BAS reporting.

If you are intent on running a company structure and ABN without so much pain, 
Companies like Contractor X-Change will setup and manage your company, receive 
your income,  deduct the GST, lodge the reports and pay you as Pla PAYG 
employee and put away 1/12th of your money in YOUR  account  for a 3% cut of 
your income.  They'll also facilitate Vehicle leasing and FBT and any other 
extraordinary company purchases/expenses.

Agency PI/PL?

Most agencies will now extend their PI/PL cover to you either way, it's just a 
deduction and some paperwork for them, and fairly inexpensive.   If you carry 
your own PI/PL, it's an invite to offload liability on you anyway.  The agency 
cover ONLY covers you for liability risk for that one contract, while holding 
your own PIPL could cover all of your enterprises.


HTH.  It's all a bit rough and ready, I hate typing on my mobile.
I'm sure I've left holes, it's more just to give you some ideas.

Everyone's journey and needs are different.

Regards

--
Dan Cash
m. 0411 468 779


On Mon, 11 Dec 2023, 16:31 Tom P via ozdotnet, 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote:
Hi all,

I’m getting asked by a recruiter whether I want to do PAYG or use a personal 
ABN for a contracting position. I never really understood why one would use an 
ABN as you’d need to get your own insurances etc. Can anybody explain?

Cheers
Tom
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Re: [OT] Contracting PAYG vs ABN

[Dan Cash via ozdotnet]

*Recommendation*

If this is your "one job" ,  the cost and hassle of GST and PAYG
accounting,  quarterly / annual reporting probably make working through the
ABN more trouble than its worth.


*Background*

For contracting,  ABN is frequently tied to a company ("Interposed Entity")
setup both as a Services vehicle and circuit breaker to limit your personal
liability for contractual reasons.The Agency contracts your company,
your company employs you.

If you work through any ABN, you'll work need to register as a PAYG
Employer and SGC Contributor.


*ABN ("Personal Services Business")  == PAYG + "Extra Paperwork"*

If you take a 12 month contract +2 renewals, your ABN would represent a
"Personal Services Business" that cannot carry retained earnings from year
to year.  All business earnings after GST is treated as your Gross PAYG
Income, your PAYG  Tax return will  look very similar either way.

*So why use an ABN?*

1. Many contractors have side-gigs, maintain  their own commercial
software, or take a new contract every three months.  With enough income
from  Secondary sources, they may avoid PSB determination.

2. Some contractors direct income to a Family trust, permitting wealth
distribution across the family to minimise tax.

3.  For most ABN Holders, it's just easier to carry the same accounting
structure to manage banking/ deductions,  SGC etc regardless of where the
money's coming from today.

4.  Some use an ABN to avoid being treated as a "wages" employee to the
Agency, and take control of their own money.  Agencies will often "keep" a
portion of your contract income to "pay"  you between contracts / for sick
leave.  They may even keep a portion for "long service leave". For true
employees these are "on-costs", and come off the company's bottom line.
 For contractors, they're inventing ways to keep your money in their bank
account longer.  They can't try this with ABN holders.

So it's really a question of whether 1/12th of your money is better earning
interest in the Agency's bank account or yours.   If cash runs through your
fingers like drops of rain, then the Agency's PAYG plan is for You!   (You
can probably ask them NOT to retain anything when setting up your contract,
regardless of ABN.  Discuss with your Agent).

*ABN (company)Too hard?*

Twenty years ago you needed a company to setup your own Superfund and PIPL,
lease a vehicle or claim deductions.  But you could also pay your partner
as bookkeeper.  Gradual tightening of Australia's Company, Tax and Super
legislation has eroded any real benefit from running a Personal Services
Business through a company, while adding the overhead of quarterly or
monthly BAS reporting.

If you are intent on running a company structure and ABN without so much
pain, Companies like Contractor X-Change will setup and manage your
company, receive your income,  deduct the GST, lodge the reports and pay
you as Pla PAYG employee and put away 1/12th of your money in YOUR
account  for a 3% cut of your income.  They'll also facilitate Vehicle
leasing and FBT and any other extraordinary company purchases/expenses.

*Agency PI/PL?*

Most agencies will now extend their PI/PL cover to you either way, it's
just a deduction and some paperwork for them, and fairly inexpensive.   If
you carry your own PI/PL, it's an invite to offload liability on you
anyway.  The agency cover ONLY covers you for liability risk for that one
contract, while holding your own PIPL could cover all of your enterprises.


HTH.  It's all a bit rough and ready, I hate typing on my mobile.
I'm sure I've left holes, it's more just to give you some ideas.

Everyone's journey and needs are different.

Regards

--
Dan Cash
m. 0411 468 779


On Mon, 11 Dec 2023, 16:31 Tom P via ozdotnet, 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I’m getting asked by a recruiter whether I want to do PAYG or use a
> personal ABN for a contracting position. I never really understood why one
> would use an ABN as you’d need to get your own insurances etc. Can anybody
> explain?
>
> Cheers
> Tom
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
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Re: [OT] Contracting PAYG vs ABN

[David Connors via ozdotnet]

You should seek advice from a chartered accountant but briefly, if more
than 50% of your income comes from your own personal efforts then just go
with PAYG.

You're being asked this question because the ATO etc does not like people
who are individual employees behaving as if they're companies when all
they're doing is working full time for one employer.

On Mon, 11 Dec 2023 at 13:31, Tom P via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I’m getting asked by a recruiter whether I want to do PAYG or use a
> personal ABN for a contracting position. I never really understood why one
> would use an ABN as you’d need to get your own insurances etc. Can anybody
> explain?
>
> Cheers
> Tom
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
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Re: Many years ago

[Dan Cash via ozdotnet]

Thanks Alan.I used bsky-social-vqjpx-ripzb (I think .  The
brain-scattering is enbiggened today).

--
Dan Cash
m. 0411 468 779


On Fri, 8 Dec 2023, 09:16 Alan Ingleby via ozdotnet, 
wrote:

> bsky-social-vqjpx-ripzb
> bsky-social-3g3ga-riozy
> bsky-social-jctra-bhn5j
>
>
> On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 at 07:07, mike smith via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Some more
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 6, 2023, 18:54 mike smith  wrote:
>>
>>> We'd post invite codes for Gmail, when it was beta and invite only.
>>>
>>> Here's some bsky invite codes, 3, if it doesn't work its been used
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
>
>
> --
> Alan Ingleby
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
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Re: Many years ago

[Alan Ingleby via ozdotnet]

bsky-social-vqjpx-ripzb
bsky-social-3g3ga-riozy
bsky-social-jctra-bhn5j


On Fri, 8 Dec 2023 at 07:07, mike smith via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> Some more
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 6, 2023, 18:54 mike smith  wrote:
>
>> We'd post invite codes for Gmail, when it was beta and invite only.
>>
>> Here's some bsky invite codes, 3, if it doesn't work its been used
>>
>> Mike
>>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/



-- 
Alan Ingleby
-- 
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RE: Conditional builds of arbitrary files

[David Kean via ozdotnet]

Awesome.

I'll see ya at DDD.

From: Greg Keogh 
Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2023 2:30 PM
To: David Kean 
Cc: ozDotNet 
Subject: Re: Conditional builds of arbitrary files

Look at VS Text Templates, or we sometimes make use the C-preprocessor.

Bingo! I'm a big fan of T4 templates and have used them in anger in many 
projects ... but I didn't think of using them in this case. I just did a sanity 
check and it works. Thankfully someone published an example of how to get the 
active configuration value inside the tt file (in brief).

<#@ template debug="false" hostspecific="true" language="C#" #>
<#@ assembly name="System.Core" #>
<#@ assembly name="EnvDTE" #>
<#@ import namespace="System" #>
<#@ import namespace="EnvDTE" #>
<#@ output extension=".html" #>
<#
var serviceProvider = Host as IServiceProvider;
var dte = serviceProvider.GetService(typeof(DTE)) as DTE;
var configName = 
dte.Solution.SolutionBuild.ActiveConfiguration.Name<http://dte.solution.solutionbuild.activeconfiguration.name/>;
#>
 ... (etc)

With the config value I can now <# if #> control the contents of the html file. 
It looks a bit strange in the VS solution tree, but so what, it works.

There is one quirk ... the T4 generator does not run automatically when the 
configuration changes or when you build or publish, so I must remember to 
Alt+B+4 as needed.

Thanks,
Greg

P.S. If I see you at DDD I'll shout you a drink as thanks.


From: Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2023 11:59 AM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: Greg Keogh mailto:gfke...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Conditional builds of arbitrary files

Folks, the MSBuild process provides Condition= and #if to provide lots of 
control over which files and code fragments are compiled and published for a 
given Configuration.

My projects contain increasing numbers of non-cs files like html, css, js, txt, 
etc which often need conditional processing, especially the equivalent of a #if 
to select fragments of those sorts of files for different configurations. 
There's no way to select fragments of arbitrary files with a #if, so I've been 
wondering for years about the best way to simulate the feature.

I can't find any tools to do this, so I think that a custom MSBuild Task might 
be the way to go. The task could be given some parameters and it would edit the 
files and add and remove sections based upon the configuration before the build 
starts.

Does anyone think that's a good idea? Or maybe there's a better way.

Cheers,
Greg Keogh
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Conditional builds of arbitrary files

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

>
> Look at VS Text Templates, or we sometimes make use the C-preprocessor.
>

Bingo! I'm a big fan of T4 templates and have used them in anger in many
projects ... but I didn't think of using them in this case. I just did a
sanity check and it works. Thankfully someone published an example of how
to get the active configuration value inside the tt file (in brief).

<#@ template debug="false" hostspecific="true" language="C#" #>
<#@ assembly name="System.Core" #>
<#@ assembly name="EnvDTE" #>
<#@ import namespace="System" #>
<#@ import namespace="EnvDTE" #>
<#@ output extension=".html" #>
<#
var serviceProvider = Host as IServiceProvider;
var dte = serviceProvider.GetService(typeof(DTE)) as DTE;
var configName = dte.Solution.SolutionBuild.ActiveConfiguration.Name;
#>
 ... (etc)

With the config value I can now <# if #> control the contents of the html
file. It looks a bit strange in the VS solution tree, but so what, it works.

There is one quirk ... the T4 generator does not run automatically when the
configuration changes or when you build or publish, so I must remember to
Alt+B+4 as needed.

Thanks,
*Greg*

P.S. If I see you at DDD I'll shout you a drink as thanks.


>
> *From:* Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 5, 2023 11:59 AM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* Greg Keogh 
> *Subject:* Conditional builds of arbitrary files
>
>
>
> Folks, the MSBuild process provides Condition= and #if to provide lots of
> control over which files and code fragments are compiled and published for
> a given Configuration.
>
>
>
> My projects contain increasing numbers of non-cs files like html, css, js,
> txt, etc which often need conditional processing, especially the equivalent
> of a #if to select fragments of those sorts of files for different
> configurations. There's no way to select fragments of arbitrary files with
> a #if, so I've been wondering for years about the best way to simulate the
> feature.
>
>
>
> I can't find any tools to do this, so I *think* that a custom MSBuild
> Task might be the way to go. The task could be given some parameters and it
> would edit the files and add and remove sections based upon the
> configuration before the build starts.
>
>
>
> Does anyone think that's a good idea? Or maybe there's a better way.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> *Greg Keogh*
>
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

RE: Conditional builds of arbitrary files

[David Kean via ozdotnet]

Look at VS Text Templates, or we sometimes make use the C-preprocessor.

From: Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2023 11:59 AM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: Greg Keogh 
Subject: Conditional builds of arbitrary files

Folks, the MSBuild process provides Condition= and #if to provide lots of 
control over which files and code fragments are compiled and published for a 
given Configuration.

My projects contain increasing numbers of non-cs files like html, css, js, txt, 
etc which often need conditional processing, especially the equivalent of a #if 
to select fragments of those sorts of files for different configurations. 
There's no way to select fragments of arbitrary files with a #if, so I've been 
wondering for years about the best way to simulate the feature.

I can't find any tools to do this, so I think that a custom MSBuild Task might 
be the way to go. The task could be given some parameters and it would edit the 
files and add and remove sections based upon the configuration before the build 
starts.

Does anyone think that's a good idea? Or maybe there's a better way.

Cheers,
Greg Keogh
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Blazor css overrides

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

>
> I recall doing something similar in the past but I believe I gave each
> client their own entire css. So app.css by default OR use the client’s css
> if the config value is passed (via querystring or whatever).
>

I was thinking of that as the best choice. If t=company is specified then
I'll insert a link to a complete css file in their storage, falling back to
a local app.css. They have complete control of the styling that way.
EXCEPT... if we invent new styles, which is quite possible, foreign copies
will need to be synchronised, which is fragile. Maybe not the best choice
after all.

I don’t see a problem with using !important if it guarantees it and they do
> it always. If they don’t want to then the alternative above may suit.
>

Articles tell you to never use !important in public shared css files, but
since the customer's overrides are the top of the food chain, then maybe
it's acceptable.


> I’ve never bothered going down the rabbit hole of css to be honest.
>

That's putting it politely. If I bothered to learn all about css then it
would certainly displace other knowledge from my brain that is more
valuable.

*Greg*


>
>
> On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 at 15:53, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Folks, TGIF
>>
>> Our Blazor app has a simple classic shape with a local wwwroot/app.css
>> file containing all the styles for the app. I had to allow people to
>> customise the appearance, and my way of doing that works, but not as
>> smoothly as I hoped and I think someone might be able to suggest a better
>> more elegant technique.
>>
>> If someone starts the app with query parameter ?t=contoso then the
>> startup code appends a line like this into the 
>>
>> https://*somecompany*.
>> blob.core.windows.net/*myapp*/*contoso.css*">
>>
>> They can edit this external css file and override selectors without
>> touching the original app's files. Firstly ... is this sensible? It works,
>> but there is a problem.
>>
>> To override a certain colour they have to code something like this:
>>
>> .HeadLinkSel { background-color: BlueViolet !important; }
>>
>> Note how the !important is needed, sometimes. I can't figure out why
>> yet, but !important needs to be added to the overrides most of the time. I
>> thought that the last selector override all previous identical ones, and
>> it's really irritating and confuses people settings the overrides. Can
>> anyone explain this?
>>
>> Maybe my whole technique is flawed and naïve. I'm keen for suggestions or
>> links to recommended techniques for doing this sort of thing.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> *Greg Keogh*
>> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
> --
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Re: Blazor css overrides

[Tony McGee via ozdotnet]

It's not always the last selector that overrides previous ones.
You're probably running into specificity issues from the original 
stylesheet, and the !important is nuking them from orbit, to be sure. 
Using !important isn't a great solution in general terms, but for this 
use case is probably fine.


https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/Specificity


On 1/12/2023 14:50, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet wrote:

Folks, TGIF

Our Blazor app has a simple classic shape with a local wwwroot/app.css 
file containing all the styles for the app. I had to allow people to 
customise the appearance, and my way of doing that works, but not as 
smoothly as I hoped and I think someone might be able to suggest a 
better more elegant technique.


If someone starts the app with query parameter ?t=contoso then the 
startup code appends a line like this into the 


href="https:///somecompany/.blob.core.windows.net/ 
/myapp//_contoso.css_">


They can edit this external css file and override selectors without 
touching the original app's files. Firstly ... is this sensible? It 
works, but there is a problem.


To override a certain colour they have to code something like this:

.HeadLinkSel { background-color: BlueViolet !important; }

Note how the !important is needed, sometimes. I can't figure out why 
yet, but !important needs to be added to the overrides most of the 
time. I thought that the last selector override all previous identical 
ones, and it's really irritating and confuses people settings the 
overrides. Can anyone explain this?


Maybe my whole technique is flawed and naïve. I'm keen for suggestions 
or links to recommended techniques for doing this sort of thing.


Cheers,
/Greg Keogh/

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Re: Blazor css overrides

[DotNet Dude via ozdotnet]

I recall doing something similar in the past but I believe I gave each
client their own entire css. So app.css by default OR use the client’s css
if the config value is passed (via querystring or whatever).

I don’t see a problem with using !important if it guarantees it and they do
it always. If they don’t want to then the alternative above may suit.

I’ve never bothered going down the rabbit hole of css to be honest.


On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 at 15:53, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> Folks, TGIF
>
> Our Blazor app has a simple classic shape with a local wwwroot/app.css
> file containing all the styles for the app. I had to allow people to
> customise the appearance, and my way of doing that works, but not as
> smoothly as I hoped and I think someone might be able to suggest a better
> more elegant technique.
>
> If someone starts the app with query parameter ?t=contoso then the
> startup code appends a line like this into the 
>
> https://*somecompany*.
> blob.core.windows.net/*myapp*/*contoso.css*">
>
> They can edit this external css file and override selectors without
> touching the original app's files. Firstly ... is this sensible? It works,
> but there is a problem.
>
> To override a certain colour they have to code something like this:
>
> .HeadLinkSel { background-color: BlueViolet !important; }
>
> Note how the !important is needed, sometimes. I can't figure out why yet,
> but !important needs to be added to the overrides most of the time. I
> thought that the last selector override all previous identical ones, and
> it's really irritating and confuses people settings the overrides. Can
> anyone explain this?
>
> Maybe my whole technique is flawed and naïve. I'm keen for suggestions or
> links to recommended techniques for doing this sort of thing.
>
> Cheers,
> *Greg Keogh*
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
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RE: Blazor css overrides

[David Kean via ozdotnet]

I just use Chrome's css tools to tell me the order in which things are getting 
evaluated.

From: Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2023 3:51 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: Greg Keogh 
Subject: Blazor css overrides

Folks, TGIF

Our Blazor app has a simple classic shape with a local wwwroot/app.css file 
containing all the styles for the app. I had to allow people to customise the 
appearance, and my way of doing that works, but not as smoothly as I hoped and 
I think someone might be able to suggest a better more elegant technique.

If someone starts the app with query parameter ?t=contoso then the startup code 
appends a line like this into the 

https://somecompany.blob.core.windows.net/myapp/contoso.css">

They can edit this external css file and override selectors without touching 
the original app's files. Firstly ... is this sensible? It works, but there is 
a problem.

To override a certain colour they have to code something like this:

.HeadLinkSel { background-color: BlueViolet !important; }

Note how the !important is needed, sometimes. I can't figure out why yet, but 
!important needs to be added to the overrides most of the time. I thought that 
the last selector override all previous identical ones, and it's really 
irritating and confuses people settings the overrides. Can anyone explain this?

Maybe my whole technique is flawed and naïve. I'm keen for suggestions or links 
to recommended techniques for doing this sort of thing.

Cheers,
Greg Keogh
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Re: [OT] Angular training

[Tom P via ozdotnet]

Melbourne but we decided to go with online training

Cheers
Tom

On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 at 22:27, DotNet Dude via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> What city?
>
> On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 12:28, Tom P via ozdotnet 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks
>>
>> Can anyone here recommend a good one on one in person Angular accelerated
>> training program?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Tom
>>
> --
>> ozdotnet mailing list
>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
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Re: [OT] Identifying domain details

[DotNet Dude via ozdotnet]

Domain is still up so I’m assuming this is still in progress. I am
interested in the outcome if you can reply to this thread if you remember
mate.

On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 15:23, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> Folks, I'm preparing the paperwork to take some fraudulent plumbers to the
> Magistrate's Court for "recovery of civil debt". Background information is
> on my web page SCAM - KM Heating & Cooling
> .
>
> As part of the case I'm going to ask if an order can be made to shut down
> the matching fraudulent website at kmheatingandcoolingplumbers.com.au and
> (hopefully) have the domain registration cancelled.
>
> Can any network boffins in here tell me what identifying whois and similar
> domain information can be extracted for me to add to the case?
>
> *Consider replying to my personal email because this is not of further
> interest to the group.*
>
> Cheers,
> *Greg Keogh*
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
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Re: [OT] Angular training

[DotNet Dude via ozdotnet]

What city?

On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 12:28, Tom P via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> Hi folks
>
> Can anyone here recommend a good one on one in person Angular accelerated
> training program?
>
> Cheers
> Tom
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
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Re: Minimal Web API code helper package

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

>
> I think the package you are looking for is Carter
>
>
>
> https://www.nuget.org/packages/Carter
>
> https://github.com/CarterCommunity/Carter
>

Folks, some quick feedback. Carter wasn't quite as attractive as I guessed.
It adds too much of what I call "magic plumbing" and lots of fluent methods
for validation and authorisation that weren't of much use for me. I didn't
want to get married to another framework without a good reason, so I
skipped it and moved all my endpoint methods into a partial class:

static partial class Program
{
  public static void MapEndpoints(IEndpointRouteBuilder app,
WebApplicationBuilder builder)
  {
app.MapPost(...) { etc }
// etc
  }
}

I call  MapEndpoints(...) during program startup and it separates all that
code into a separate file, and for a good reason ... I use a T4 template to
generate about 1000 lines of repetitive app.mapxxx(...) calls into that
partial file.

*Greg K*
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Re: Minimal Web API code helper package

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

>
> I think the package you are looking for is Carter
>
> https://www.nuget.org/packages/Carter
>
> https://github.com/CarterCommunity/Carter
>

Yes thanks, that looks familiar.

It doesn't look quite as *clever* as I recall, but I'll look into it
anyway. I tried something vaguely similar myself last year, but it's time
to revisit the issue and see how someone else tackled the matter.

*Greg*
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RE: Minimal Web API code helper package

[Cameron Booth via ozdotnet]

Folks, a couple of weeks ago I was watching a video where someone used a NuGet 
package in a minimal Web API project to change the plumbing slightly so that it 
was easier to code the endpoint methods. By default, the endpoint methods must 
be strictly coded and it's tricky to break them apart or make partial methods. 
The package I saw added some magic to make coding the endpoints easier, but I 
can't remember exactly how. I just remember thinking "that looks handy" and now 
I can't find it. Any idea what it might have been?

Greg Keogh


I think the package you are looking for is Carter

https://www.nuget.org/packages/Carter
https://github.com/CarterCommunity/Carter
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in error please notify the sender immediately via return email. Any views 
expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the 
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Re: AEC form

[DotNet Dude via ozdotnet]

LMAO. I had a mate who got a contract there several years ago and quit
after a day or two after seeing the codebase. Some places cannot be saved!

On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 at 19:33, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> Whoever develops code for the AEC really needs to take a long hard look at
> themselves. Second error is the Captcha failing even though it didn't ask
> for it in the first place. It wasn't visible on the form.
>
> And I'm not sure what attempt at English the other error is meant to be.
>
> Does anyone review this?
>
> Regards
>
> Greg
>
> Dr Greg Low
> Director
> SQL Down Under Pty Ltd
> Office: 1300SQLSQL (1300775775)
> Mobile: +61419201410
> About me: https://greglow.me
>
> --
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Re: AEC form

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

:-)

Dr Greg Low
Director
SQL Down Under Pty Ltd
Office: 1300SQLSQL (1300775775)
Mobile: +61419201410
About me: https://greglow.me


From: David Connors via ozdotnet 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2023 8:51:52 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: David Connors 
Subject: Re: AEC form

I didn't think the government was handing IBM any more contracts ...

On Fri, 15 Sept 2023 at 19:39, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote:
It almost makes sense but there was no visible control on the form saying that. 
And after fixing the captcha error and resubmitting, it just worked. So the 
other one wasn't an error anyway.

Bizarre.

Regards

Greg

Dr Greg Low
Director
SQL Down Under Pty Ltd
Office: 1300SQLSQL (1300775775)
Mobile: +61419201410
About me: https://greglow.me


From: Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2023 7:32:04 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: Dr Greg Low mailto:g...@sqldownunder.com>>
Subject: AEC form

Whoever develops code for the AEC really needs to take a long hard look at 
themselves. Second error is the Captcha failing even though it didn't ask for 
it in the first place. It wasn't visible on the form.

And I'm not sure what attempt at English the other error is meant to be.

Does anyone review this?

Regards

Greg

Dr Greg Low
Director
SQL Down Under Pty Ltd
Office: 1300SQLSQL (1300775775)
Mobile: +61419201410
About me: https://greglow.me

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Re: AEC form

[David Connors via ozdotnet]

I didn't think the government was handing IBM any more contracts ...

On Fri, 15 Sept 2023 at 19:39, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> It almost makes sense but there was no visible control on the form saying
> that. And after fixing the captcha error and resubmitting, it just worked.
> So the other one wasn't an error anyway.
>
> Bizarre.
>
> Regards
>
> Greg
>
> Dr Greg Low
> Director
> SQL Down Under Pty Ltd
> Office: 1300SQLSQL (1300775775)
> Mobile: +61419201410
> About me: https://greglow.me
>
> --
> *From:* Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet 
> *Sent:* Friday, September 15, 2023 7:32:04 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* Dr Greg Low 
> *Subject:* AEC form
>
> Whoever develops code for the AEC really needs to take a long hard look at
> themselves. Second error is the Captcha failing even though it didn't ask
> for it in the first place. It wasn't visible on the form.
>
> And I'm not sure what attempt at English the other error is meant to be.
>
> Does anyone review this?
>
> Regards
>
> Greg
>
> Dr Greg Low
> Director
> SQL Down Under Pty Ltd
> Office: 1300SQLSQL (1300775775)
> Mobile: +61419201410
> About me: https://greglow.me
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
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Re: AEC form

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

It almost makes sense but there was no visible control on the form saying that. 
And after fixing the captcha error and resubmitting, it just worked. So the 
other one wasn't an error anyway.

Bizarre.

Regards

Greg

Dr Greg Low
Director
SQL Down Under Pty Ltd
Office: 1300SQLSQL (1300775775)
Mobile: +61419201410
About me: https://greglow.me


From: Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet 
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2023 7:32:04 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: Dr Greg Low 
Subject: AEC form

Whoever develops code for the AEC really needs to take a long hard look at 
themselves. Second error is the Captcha failing even though it didn't ask for 
it in the first place. It wasn't visible on the form.

And I'm not sure what attempt at English the other error is meant to be.

Does anyone review this?

Regards

Greg

Dr Greg Low
Director
SQL Down Under Pty Ltd
Office: 1300SQLSQL (1300775775)
Mobile: +61419201410
About me: https://greglow.me

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RE: Blazor popularity and use

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

Thanks David. I’ve got a meeting today with a guy who’s the Principal Software 
Engineering Manager for Learn.

I’ll see how that goes and report back.

I suspect a key issue is that you still can’t have an M365 email address for 
your certification profile and that only MSAs work. If so, that would continue 
to be crazy stuff, and should have been resolved long ago.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: David Kean 
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 11:02 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: David Connors ; Dr Greg Low 
Subject: RE: Blazor popularity and use

Greg can you forward me some context? Can’t promise anything, but I probably 
have a better chance of landing on the right person’s desk.

From: Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 2:24 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: David Connors mailto:da...@connors.com>>; Greg Low 
mailto:g...@sqldownunder.com>>
Subject: RE: Blazor popularity and use

Agreed, but being one of the people who periodically need to consume many 
Microsoft internal apps and web sites, I will just have to differ on how 
effective I find them I’ve been so frustrated by some of the ones I need to 
use, that I’ve volunteered to help fix them. It would be quicker for me to fix 
the app for them, than to need to interact with it.

But it’s Friday so:

My biggest issues are still around identity. I’m having yet another week 
struggling to work out how to sort out issues with Microsoft identities. I do 
not understand why this needs to be so hard.

I’ve dealt with Amazon for a very long time. To this day, I still use the same 
identity I created when I first used them, and it works for all services that I 
purchase from them.
Same with Google. Same with Apple, etc.

But with Microsoft, I’ve been pushed into needing a string of identities over 
the years, with incompatible identity systems, incompatible Microsoft service 
requirements for identity, etc.

Why does this have to continue?

And the support for this in many areas has moved to forum-based support that is 
extremely poor. Here’s a fine example of “support” that I received yesterday:


[cid:image001.png@01D9E30B.B6BC9D20]

I’ve been trying to work out if that’s the worst “support” response I’ve ever 
received.

So, I then guessed that I needed to contact MCP support, instead of MCT support 
(as clearly they don’t have a clue, even though they are closely associated), 
and today I woke up to:

A moderator has deleted a thread you were following, How do I change my email 
address on my certification profile?. It's possible that the thread was off 
topic, violated the Code of Conduct, or was just a duplicate thread.


I have no idea what the issue was as they’d already deleted the thread. It 
might be because I’m asking how to change the email address, and they assume 
that’s a duplicate. But I can’t find any previous discussion now, apart from 
changing it via the Learn profile, which clearly doesn’t work.

I don’t get why there isn’t some Microsoft VP screaming at people to fix it. I 
know I want to, and I’m a calm person.

It’s gone on way too long.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: David Connors via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:55 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: David Connors mailto:da...@connors.com>>
Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low 
mailto:g...@sqldownunder.com>> wrote:
Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. 
And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align 
pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s 
just silly.

I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there 
were 10 devs doing the web parts.

After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could 
have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself.

This is probably more down to approach. If they were building from scratch by 
themselves, then I agree, productivity will be terrible; however on the flip 
side, you have to remember that 80+% of the cost of software is after the code 
is written and in the support phase. For our internal apps, we use a commercial 
off the shelf theme and a couple of other components and stick with those. The 
consistency of UI layout, responsiveness across form factors etc is all done 
very cost effectively by using something like: 
https://angular-material.fusetheme.com/dashboards/project - best $700 you'll 
ever spe

Re: Blazor popularity and use

[DotNet Dude via ozdotnet]

I recall reading somewhere last night there are around 25k Blazor apps in
the wild (Internet facing I assume) whereas React has over 11 million (?).
Don’t know about the accuracy of that but that may explain why the original
poster cannot see any advertised jobs

On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 23:58, Nathan Schultz via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> I've only used Blazor on pet projects, and have been happy with the
> results.
> But our workplace is more back-end processing, and we use OutSystems to
> quickly knock together back-office SPAs. And the business has been very
> happy with that, so I don't see us moving to Blazor in the future.
>
> "I've never met a living person who uses Flutter, or the Dart language for
> that matter. It would be a brave decision to choose that as a development
> platform for the future."
>
> Ironically one of my C# devs is a moderator on the official Flutter
> Discord server. Mobile apps is where Flutter really shines (and in the
> demos I've seen and when I played around with it, it is quite impressive).
> It came after Xamarin and it's clear that Google learned from Xamarin's
> mistakes. As for Dart, they've borrowed a lot from C# so it doesn't have a
> hugely steep learning curve. With a cheat-sheet you can get effective
> fairly quickly.
> But IMHO it's a niche language in an ecosystem and so it competes more
> with Swift/Objective-C (although Google would not agree).
> They've got some nice ideas, but it doesn't have any compelling reason to
> move to it, and I don't see it being a safe bet for the future.
>
> As for Javascript, people forget that it isn't a W3C standard. It was the
> language of Netscape -> Mozilla foundation. And thus became the default
> language in the browser.
> Scott Koon famously said, "JavaScript won by default. People wanted to
> build better web applications. Programming against Flash movies
> sucked. Javascript was already in all the browsers. If you're the last man
> left on earth, it doesn't matter how ugly you are when the women come to
> re-populate the planet."
> But because it was the Lingua Franca it's not going away, even though the
> W3C opened the doors to everyone else with WebAssembly.
>
> On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 11:13, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> If demand *for SSW* to use Blazor is overtaking JS, then I'd believe it.
>> I saw the statement made.
>>
>> I've never met a living person who uses Flutter, or the Dart language for
>> that matter. It would be a brave decision to choose that as a development
>> platform for the future.
>>
>> Does MAUI generate browser hosted web apps? I didn't think it was made
>> for that purpose, but maybe it does. I haven't looked yet.
>>
>> If you don't want to use a JavaScript framework, then Webassembly is the
>> future. I see there is a proposal to take JavaScript out of the stack so
>> that Wasm can talk directly to the browser DOM, which I think would be a
>> great leap forward because the JS layer is an utterly useless link in the
>> chain. Then we can finally consign JavaScript to the rubbish bin of history
>> where it belongs.
>>
>> *GK*
>>
>> On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:47, Tony Wright via ozdotnet <
>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree. React demand is far higher than any other front end framework
>>> as far as I can see. Angular ticks all the corporate governance boxes but
>>> it is so unwieldy and requires so much boilerplate before getting to the
>>> business logic it has really lost the war. Most of it comes down to
>>> popularity. If something it discovered that it fast superior to everything
>>> else, you usually see it rocket up the list. Blazor doesn't seem to be
>>> doing that unfortunately. Vue should be more popular. NodeJs if you want a
>>> pure JavaScript approach. But if you don't want a JavaScript framework what
>>> choices do you have? .Net Maui? Flutter?
>>>
>>> On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 12:31 pm DotNet Dude via ozdotnet, <
>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I find it very hard to believe Blazor demand has overtaken JS. That’s
>>>> an insane comment from Adam
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 12:05, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
>>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used
>>>>>> it for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work 
>>>>>> anywhere
>>>>>> that uses Blazor, not a single one!
>>>&g

Re: Blazor popularity and use

[Nathan Schultz via ozdotnet]

I've only used Blazor on pet projects, and have been happy with the results.
But our workplace is more back-end processing, and we use OutSystems to
quickly knock together back-office SPAs. And the business has been very
happy with that, so I don't see us moving to Blazor in the future.

"I've never met a living person who uses Flutter, or the Dart language for
that matter. It would be a brave decision to choose that as a development
platform for the future."

Ironically one of my C# devs is a moderator on the official Flutter Discord
server. Mobile apps is where Flutter really shines (and in the demos I've
seen and when I played around with it, it is quite impressive).
It came after Xamarin and it's clear that Google learned from Xamarin's
mistakes. As for Dart, they've borrowed a lot from C# so it doesn't have a
hugely steep learning curve. With a cheat-sheet you can get effective
fairly quickly.
But IMHO it's a niche language in an ecosystem and so it competes more with
Swift/Objective-C (although Google would not agree).
They've got some nice ideas, but it doesn't have any compelling reason to
move to it, and I don't see it being a safe bet for the future.

As for Javascript, people forget that it isn't a W3C standard. It was the
language of Netscape -> Mozilla foundation. And thus became the default
language in the browser.
Scott Koon famously said, "JavaScript won by default. People wanted to
build better web applications. Programming against Flash movies
sucked. Javascript was already in all the browsers. If you're the last man
left on earth, it doesn't matter how ugly you are when the women come to
re-populate the planet."
But because it was the Lingua Franca it's not going away, even though the
W3C opened the doors to everyone else with WebAssembly.

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 11:13, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> If demand *for SSW* to use Blazor is overtaking JS, then I'd believe it.
> I saw the statement made.
>
> I've never met a living person who uses Flutter, or the Dart language for
> that matter. It would be a brave decision to choose that as a development
> platform for the future.
>
> Does MAUI generate browser hosted web apps? I didn't think it was made for
> that purpose, but maybe it does. I haven't looked yet.
>
> If you don't want to use a JavaScript framework, then Webassembly is the
> future. I see there is a proposal to take JavaScript out of the stack so
> that Wasm can talk directly to the browser DOM, which I think would be a
> great leap forward because the JS layer is an utterly useless link in the
> chain. Then we can finally consign JavaScript to the rubbish bin of history
> where it belongs.
>
> *GK*
>
> On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:47, Tony Wright via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree. React demand is far higher than any other front end framework as
>> far as I can see. Angular ticks all the corporate governance boxes but it
>> is so unwieldy and requires so much boilerplate before getting to the
>> business logic it has really lost the war. Most of it comes down to
>> popularity. If something it discovered that it fast superior to everything
>> else, you usually see it rocket up the list. Blazor doesn't seem to be
>> doing that unfortunately. Vue should be more popular. NodeJs if you want a
>> pure JavaScript approach. But if you don't want a JavaScript framework what
>> choices do you have? .Net Maui? Flutter?
>>
>> On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 12:31 pm DotNet Dude via ozdotnet, <
>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I find it very hard to believe Blazor demand has overtaken JS. That’s an
>>> insane comment from Adam
>>>
>>> On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 12:05, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used
>>>>> it for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere
>>>>> that uses Blazor, not a single one!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Compared to server-side ASP.NET and JS Frameworks, Blazor is a gift
>>>> from heaven .. well ... sort-of. Here's a Friday story.
>>>>
>>>> With the death of Silverlight, we had to replace an app with a quite
>>>> rich UI with something else, what?! Like many people, I was spitting chips
>>>> angry at the suggestion we must replace our Silverlight apps with HTML5
>>>> apps. The idea that HTML+CSS+JS could replace a WPF-like rich web UI made
>>>> me laugh and cry at the same time.
>>>>
>>>> Angular was really popular around 2018 so we got an offer to write a JS
>>>> replacement for $200/hr. I then decid

RE: Blazor popularity and use

[David Kean via ozdotnet]

Greg can you forward me some context? Can’t promise anything, but I probably 
have a better chance of landing on the right person’s desk.

From: Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet 
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 2:24 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: David Connors ; Greg Low 
Subject: RE: Blazor popularity and use

Agreed, but being one of the people who periodically need to consume many 
Microsoft internal apps and web sites, I will just have to differ on how 
effective I find them I’ve been so frustrated by some of the ones I need to 
use, that I’ve volunteered to help fix them. It would be quicker for me to fix 
the app for them, than to need to interact with it.

But it’s Friday so:

My biggest issues are still around identity. I’m having yet another week 
struggling to work out how to sort out issues with Microsoft identities. I do 
not understand why this needs to be so hard.

I’ve dealt with Amazon for a very long time. To this day, I still use the same 
identity I created when I first used them, and it works for all services that I 
purchase from them.
Same with Google. Same with Apple, etc.

But with Microsoft, I’ve been pushed into needing a string of identities over 
the years, with incompatible identity systems, incompatible Microsoft service 
requirements for identity, etc.

Why does this have to continue?

And the support for this in many areas has moved to forum-based support that is 
extremely poor. Here’s a fine example of “support” that I received yesterday:


[cid:image001.png@01D9E2A8.4E5EF790]

I’ve been trying to work out if that’s the worst “support” response I’ve ever 
received.

So, I then guessed that I needed to contact MCP support, instead of MCT support 
(as clearly they don’t have a clue, even though they are closely associated), 
and today I woke up to:

A moderator has deleted a thread you were following, How do I change my email 
address on my certification profile?. It's possible that the thread was off 
topic, violated the Code of Conduct, or was just a duplicate thread.


I have no idea what the issue was as they’d already deleted the thread. It 
might be because I’m asking how to change the email address, and they assume 
that’s a duplicate. But I can’t find any previous discussion now, apart from 
changing it via the Learn profile, which clearly doesn’t work.

I don’t get why there isn’t some Microsoft VP screaming at people to fix it. I 
know I want to, and I’m a calm person.

It’s gone on way too long.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: David Connors via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:55 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: David Connors mailto:da...@connors.com>>
Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low 
mailto:g...@sqldownunder.com>> wrote:
Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. 
And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align 
pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s 
just silly.

I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there 
were 10 devs doing the web parts.

After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could 
have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself.

This is probably more down to approach. If they were building from scratch by 
themselves, then I agree, productivity will be terrible; however on the flip 
side, you have to remember that 80+% of the cost of software is after the code 
is written and in the support phase. For our internal apps, we use a commercial 
off the shelf theme and a couple of other components and stick with those. The 
consistency of UI layout, responsiveness across form factors etc is all done 
very cost effectively by using something like: 
https://angular-material.fusetheme.com/dashboards/project - best $700 you'll 
ever spend.

If ease of development was our primary concern we would all be building 
Microsoft Access apps.

-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Blazor popularity and use

[Tom Rutter via ozdotnet]

Same from my experience. For intranet apps the supported browsers are made
clear. Even for Internet facing apps the supported browsers are just the
main ones so I very rarely see issues at all, particularly with using stuff
like bootstrap etc.

On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 14:52, Craig vN via ozdotnet 
wrote:

> Unless you are required to deal with really old browsers (IE), then I just
> don't see this. I work on a site/app that has literally millions of users
> and we would spend less than 1% of the time on dealing with browser
> compatibility issues.
>
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 1:54 PM Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still
>> isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort
>> trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of
>> browsers, etc. It’s just silly.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Blazor popularity and use

[Craig vN via ozdotnet]

Unless you are required to deal with really old browsers (IE), then I just
don't see this. I work on a site/app that has literally millions of users
and we would spend less than 1% of the time on dealing with browser
compatibility issues.

On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 1:54 PM Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still
> isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort
> trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of
> browsers, etc. It’s just silly.
>
>
>
>
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

RE: Blazor popularity and use

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

Yep, but the request that I raised was closed overnight.
A moderator has deleted a thread you were following, How do I change my email 
address on my certification profile?. It's possible that the thread was off 
topic, violated the Code of Conduct, or was just a duplicate thread.
Now they might think that’s a duplicate question, and it would be, if there was 
any way to see the outcome from other people who asked the same question. But 
every time, they take it off to a private discussion, and don’t report back on 
what was required.

So duplicate or not, any previous thread isn’t helpful. Apart from that, I 
really don’t understand why they would have deleted it. I did have one that I 
asked the MCT support people, instead of the MCP support people, but they made 
it clear, they have no clue on how to help. So that can’t be a duplicate either.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: Tony Wright 
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 2:38 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: David Connors ; Dr Greg Low 
Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use

Hi Greg, you need to raise a generic request for a fix to your mcid on the 
certifications forum. I am dealing with it right now, and they are switching 
email addresses for me. After I raised the issue, they opened up a private 
message to get private info about my accounts. It's pretty much a 3 day process.
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 2:30 pm Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote:
Agreed, but being one of the people who periodically need to consume many 
Microsoft internal apps and web sites, I will just have to differ on how 
effective I find them I’ve been so frustrated by some of the ones I need to 
use, that I’ve volunteered to help fix them. It would be quicker for me to fix 
the app for them, than to need to interact with it.

But it’s Friday so:

My biggest issues are still around identity. I’m having yet another week 
struggling to work out how to sort out issues with Microsoft identities. I do 
not understand why this needs to be so hard.

I’ve dealt with Amazon for a very long time. To this day, I still use the same 
identity I created when I first used them, and it works for all services that I 
purchase from them.
Same with Google. Same with Apple, etc.

But with Microsoft, I’ve been pushed into needing a string of identities over 
the years, with incompatible identity systems, incompatible Microsoft service 
requirements for identity, etc.

Why does this have to continue?

And the support for this in many areas has moved to forum-based support that is 
extremely poor. Here’s a fine example of “support” that I received yesterday:


[cid:image001.png@01D9E25F.6ED9FA90]

I’ve been trying to work out if that’s the worst “support” response I’ve ever 
received.

So, I then guessed that I needed to contact MCP support, instead of MCT support 
(as clearly they don’t have a clue, even though they are closely associated), 
and today I woke up to:

A moderator has deleted a thread you were following, How do I change my email 
address on my certification profile?. It's possible that the thread was off 
topic, violated the Code of Conduct, or was just a duplicate thread.


I have no idea what the issue was as they’d already deleted the thread. It 
might be because I’m asking how to change the email address, and they assume 
that’s a duplicate. But I can’t find any previous discussion now, apart from 
changing it via the Learn profile, which clearly doesn’t work.

I don’t get why there isn’t some Microsoft VP screaming at people to fix it. I 
know I want to, and I’m a calm person.

It’s gone on way too long.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: David Connors via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:55 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: David Connors mailto:da...@connors.com>>
Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low 
mailto:g...@sqldownunder.com>> wrote:
Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. 
And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align 
pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s 
just silly.

I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there 
were 10 devs doing the web parts.

After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could 
have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself.

This is probably more down to approach. If they were building from scratch by 
themselves, then I agree, productivity will be terrible; however on th

Re: Blazor popularity and use

[Tony Wright via ozdotnet]

Hi Greg, you need to raise a generic request for a fix to your mcid on the
certifications forum. I am dealing with it right now, and they are
switching email addresses for me. After I raised the issue, they opened up
a private message to get private info about my accounts. It's pretty much a
3 day process.

On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 2:30 pm Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, 
wrote:

> Agreed, but being one of the people who periodically need to consume many
> Microsoft internal apps and web sites, I will just have to differ on how
> effective I find them I’ve been so frustrated by some of the ones I
> need to use, that I’ve volunteered to help fix them. It would be quicker
> for me to fix the app for them, than to need to interact with it.
>
>
>
> But it’s Friday so:
>
>
>
> My biggest issues are still around identity. I’m having yet another week
> struggling to work out how to sort out issues with Microsoft identities. I
> do not understand why this needs to be so hard.
>
>
>
> *I’ve dealt with Amazon for a very long time. To this day, I still use the
> same identity I created when I first used them, and it works for all
> services that I purchase from them.*
>
> *Same with Google. Same with Apple, etc.*
>
>
>
> But with Microsoft, I’ve been pushed into needing a string of identities
> over the years, with incompatible identity systems, incompatible Microsoft
> service requirements for identity, etc.
>
>
>
> Why does this have to continue?
>
>
>
> And the support for this in many areas has moved to forum-based support
> that is extremely poor. Here’s a fine example of “support” that I received
> yesterday:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I’ve been trying to work out if that’s the worst “support” response I’ve
> ever received.
>
>
>
> So, I then guessed that I needed to contact MCP support, instead of MCT
> support (as clearly they don’t have a clue, even though they are closely
> associated), and today I woke up to:
>
>
>
> *A moderator has deleted a thread you were following, How do I change my
> email address on my certification profile?. It's possible that the thread
> was off topic, violated the Code of Conduct, or was just a duplicate
> thread.*
>
>
>
> I have no idea what the issue was as they’d already deleted the thread. It
> might be because I’m asking how to change the email address, and they
> assume that’s a duplicate. But I can’t find any previous discussion now,
> apart from changing it via the Learn profile, which clearly doesn’t work.
>
>
>
> I don’t get why there isn’t some Microsoft VP screaming at people to fix
> it. I know I want to, and I’m a calm person.
>
>
>
> It’s gone on way too long.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com | About Greg:
> https://about.me/greg.low
>
>
>
> *From:* David Connors via ozdotnet 
> *Sent:* Friday, September 8, 2023 1:55 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* David Connors 
> *Subject:* Re: Blazor popularity and use
>
>
>
> On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low  wrote:
>
> Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still
> isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort
> trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of
> browsers, etc. It’s just silly.
>
>
>
> I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and
> there were 10 devs doing the web parts.
>
>
>
> After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I
> could have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself.
>
>
>
> This is probably more down to approach. If they were building from scratch
> by themselves, then I agree, productivity will be terrible; however on the
> flip side, you have to remember that 80+% of the cost of software is after
> the code is written and in the support phase. For our internal apps, we use
> a commercial off the shelf theme and a couple of other components and stick
> with those. The consistency of UI layout, responsiveness across form
> factors etc is all done very cost effectively by using something like:
> https://angular-material.fusetheme.com/dashboards/project - best $700
> you'll ever spend.
>
>
>
> If ease of development was our primary concern we would all be building
> Microsoft Access apps.
>
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

RE: Blazor popularity and use

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

Agreed, but being one of the people who periodically need to consume many 
Microsoft internal apps and web sites, I will just have to differ on how 
effective I find them I’ve been so frustrated by some of the ones I need to 
use, that I’ve volunteered to help fix them. It would be quicker for me to fix 
the app for them, than to need to interact with it.

But it’s Friday so:

My biggest issues are still around identity. I’m having yet another week 
struggling to work out how to sort out issues with Microsoft identities. I do 
not understand why this needs to be so hard.

I’ve dealt with Amazon for a very long time. To this day, I still use the same 
identity I created when I first used them, and it works for all services that I 
purchase from them.
Same with Google. Same with Apple, etc.

But with Microsoft, I’ve been pushed into needing a string of identities over 
the years, with incompatible identity systems, incompatible Microsoft service 
requirements for identity, etc.

Why does this have to continue?

And the support for this in many areas has moved to forum-based support that is 
extremely poor. Here’s a fine example of “support” that I received yesterday:


[cid:image001.png@01D9E25F.6ED9FA90]

I’ve been trying to work out if that’s the worst “support” response I’ve ever 
received.

So, I then guessed that I needed to contact MCP support, instead of MCT support 
(as clearly they don’t have a clue, even though they are closely associated), 
and today I woke up to:

A moderator has deleted a thread you were following, How do I change my email 
address on my certification profile?. It's possible that the thread was off 
topic, violated the Code of Conduct, or was just a duplicate thread.


I have no idea what the issue was as they’d already deleted the thread. It 
might be because I’m asking how to change the email address, and they assume 
that’s a duplicate. But I can’t find any previous discussion now, apart from 
changing it via the Learn profile, which clearly doesn’t work.

I don’t get why there isn’t some Microsoft VP screaming at people to fix it. I 
know I want to, and I’m a calm person.

It’s gone on way too long.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: David Connors via ozdotnet 
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:55 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: David Connors 
Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low 
mailto:g...@sqldownunder.com>> wrote:
Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. 
And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align 
pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s 
just silly.

I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there 
were 10 devs doing the web parts.

After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could 
have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself.

This is probably more down to approach. If they were building from scratch by 
themselves, then I agree, productivity will be terrible; however on the flip 
side, you have to remember that 80+% of the cost of software is after the code 
is written and in the support phase. For our internal apps, we use a commercial 
off the shelf theme and a couple of other components and stick with those. The 
consistency of UI layout, responsiveness across form factors etc is all done 
very cost effectively by using something like: 
https://angular-material.fusetheme.com/dashboards/project - best $700 you'll 
ever spend.

If ease of development was our primary concern we would all be building 
Microsoft Access apps.

-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Blazor popularity and use

[Grant Maw via ozdotnet]

:" If ease of development was our primary concern we would all be building
Microsoft Access apps. "

You cannot be serious. "Ease of development" and "MS Access" do not belong
in the same sentence.

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 14:13, David Connors via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low  wrote:
>
>> Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still
>> isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort
>> trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of
>> browsers, etc. It’s just silly.
>>
>>
>>
>> I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and
>> there were 10 devs doing the web parts.
>>
>>
>>
>> After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I
>> could have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself.
>>
>
> This is probably more down to approach. If they were building from scratch
> by themselves, then I agree, productivity will be terrible; however on the
> flip side, you have to remember that 80+% of the cost of software is after
> the code is written and in the support phase. For our internal apps, we use
> a commercial off the shelf theme and a couple of other components and stick
> with those. The consistency of UI layout, responsiveness across form
> factors etc is all done very cost effectively by using something like:
> https://angular-material.fusetheme.com/dashboards/project - best $700
> you'll ever spend.
>
> If ease of development was our primary concern we would all be building
> Microsoft Access apps.
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- 
ozdotnet mailing list 
To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

RE: Blazor popularity and use

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]



Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: Greg Keogh 
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:54 PM
To: Dr Greg Low 
Cc: ozDotNet ; David Connors 
Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use

I'm glad I'm not the only grumpy old fart in here! -- GK

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low 
mailto:g...@sqldownunder.com>> wrote:
Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. 
And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align 
pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s 
just silly.

I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there 
were 10 devs doing the web parts.

After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could 
have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself.

But, no, they didn’t have to deal with “DLL-hell” from the thick clients.

Yet now, every time I open a VS project that I haven’t touched for a few 
months, I totally cringe. Instead of DLL-hell on deployment, I now usually have 
“dependency-hell” with multiple inconsistent updates to dependent frameworks. 
Sometimes I can’t even work out how to resolve it and must reimplement part of 
the code.

What we as an industry have done to productivity is tragic.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:30 PM
To: ozDotNet mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>>
Cc: David Connors mailto:da...@connors.com>>; Greg Keogh 
mailto:gfke...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use

Sure, deploying a web app to a server is easier than distributing thick client 
updates to many recipients, but that's a lucky side-effect. I stand by my claim 
that the web browser is a woefully inadequate host for business applications. I 
even have an example from today ...

A Blazor app version update was published, with some small fixes and UI tweaks 
which required css changes. I get a report that some clients are seeing parts 
of the page squashed or the text is ugly mixed sizes. After some back-and-forth 
with suggested quick fixes, the only fix was to clear the browser cache and 
restart the browser, which is really irritating for non-technical clients. I'm 
sure there are ways around this problem, with special meta tags or similar 
tricks, but it's more hoops to jump through and a good example of just how 
crappy the web browser is for business use.

 -- Greg

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:08, David Connors via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote:


On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote
I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET<http://ASP.NET>, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all 
finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web 
browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present 
serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was 
invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, 
it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering 
business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the 
weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state.

You have a short memory of what it was like deploying apps back when thick 
clients were the only option. Modern web has done more to streamline ops than 
anything else and reduced application deployment to pushing code to an app 
service and end-user deployment to pasting a link in an e-mail or IM.


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Re: Blazor popularity and use

[David Connors via ozdotnet]

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low  wrote:

> Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still
> isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort
> trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of
> browsers, etc. It’s just silly.
>
>
>
> I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and
> there were 10 devs doing the web parts.
>
>
>
> After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I
> could have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself.
>

This is probably more down to approach. If they were building from scratch
by themselves, then I agree, productivity will be terrible; however on the
flip side, you have to remember that 80+% of the cost of software is after
the code is written and in the support phase. For our internal apps, we use
a commercial off the shelf theme and a couple of other components and stick
with those. The consistency of UI layout, responsiveness across form
factors etc is all done very cost effectively by using something like:
https://angular-material.fusetheme.com/dashboards/project - best $700
you'll ever spend.

If ease of development was our primary concern we would all be building
Microsoft Access apps.
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Re: Blazor popularity and use

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

I'm glad I'm not the only grumpy old fart in here! -- *GK*

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low  wrote:

> Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still
> isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort
> trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of
> browsers, etc. It’s just silly.
>
>
>
> I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and
> there were 10 devs doing the web parts.
>
>
>
> After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I
> could have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself.
>
>
>
> But, no, they didn’t have to deal with “DLL-hell” from the thick clients.
>
>
>
> Yet now, every time I open a VS project that I haven’t touched for a few
> months, I totally cringe. Instead of DLL-hell on deployment, I now usually
> have “dependency-hell” with multiple inconsistent updates to dependent
> frameworks. Sometimes I can’t even work out how to resolve it and must
> reimplement part of the code.
>
>
>
> What we as an industry have done to productivity is tragic.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> Dr Greg Low
>
>
>
> 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
>
> SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com | About Greg:
> https://about.me/greg.low
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
> *Sent:* Friday, September 8, 2023 1:30 PM
> *To:* ozDotNet 
> *Cc:* David Connors ; Greg Keogh 
> *Subject:* Re: Blazor popularity and use
>
>
>
> Sure, deploying a web app to a server is easier than distributing thick
> client updates to many recipients, but that's a lucky side-effect. I stand
> by my claim that the web browser is a woefully inadequate host for business
> applications. I even have an example from today ...
>
>
>
> A Blazor app version update was published, with some small fixes and UI
> tweaks which required css changes. I get a report that some clients are
> seeing parts of the page squashed or the text is ugly mixed sizes. After
> some back-and-forth with suggested quick fixes, the only fix was to clear
> the browser cache and restart the browser, which is really irritating for
> non-technical clients. I'm sure there are ways around this problem, with
> special meta tags or similar tricks, but it's more hoops to jump through
> and a good example of just how crappy the web browser is for business use.
>
>
>
>  -- *Greg*
>
>
>
> On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:08, David Connors via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote
>
> I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up
> rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser
> is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present
> serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was
> invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn,
> it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering
> business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all
> the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a
> lamentable state.
>
>
>
> You have a short memory of what it was like deploying apps back when thick
> clients were the only option. Modern web has done more to streamline ops
> than anything else and reduced application deployment to pushing code to an
> app service and end-user deployment to pasting a link in an e-mail or IM.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
>
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Re: Blazor popularity and use

[Tony McGee via ozdotnet]

Not so fast, Stockholm syndrome is comfy sometimes 

https://world.hey.com/dhh/turbo-8-is-dropping-typescript-70165c01
https://devclass.com/2023/05/11/typescript-is-not-worth-it-for-developing-libraries-says-svelte-author-as-team-switches-to-javascript-and-jsdoc/

-T

On 8/09/2023 13:05, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet wrote:
Then we can finally consign JavaScript to the rubbish bin of history 
where it belongs.


/GK/
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RE: Blazor popularity and use

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. 
And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align 
pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s 
just silly.

I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there 
were 10 devs doing the web parts.

After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could 
have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself.

But, no, they didn’t have to deal with “DLL-hell” from the thick clients.

Yet now, every time I open a VS project that I haven’t touched for a few 
months, I totally cringe. Instead of DLL-hell on deployment, I now usually have 
“dependency-hell” with multiple inconsistent updates to dependent frameworks. 
Sometimes I can’t even work out how to resolve it and must reimplement part of 
the code.

What we as an industry have done to productivity is tragic.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:30 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: David Connors ; Greg Keogh 
Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use

Sure, deploying a web app to a server is easier than distributing thick client 
updates to many recipients, but that's a lucky side-effect. I stand by my claim 
that the web browser is a woefully inadequate host for business applications. I 
even have an example from today ...

A Blazor app version update was published, with some small fixes and UI tweaks 
which required css changes. I get a report that some clients are seeing parts 
of the page squashed or the text is ugly mixed sizes. After some back-and-forth 
with suggested quick fixes, the only fix was to clear the browser cache and 
restart the browser, which is really irritating for non-technical clients. I'm 
sure there are ways around this problem, with special meta tags or similar 
tricks, but it's more hoops to jump through and a good example of just how 
crappy the web browser is for business use.

 -- Greg

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:08, David Connors via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote:


On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote
I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET<http://ASP.NET>, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all 
finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web 
browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present 
serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was 
invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, 
it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering 
business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the 
weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state.

You have a short memory of what it was like deploying apps back when thick 
clients were the only option. Modern web has done more to streamline ops than 
anything else and reduced application deployment to pushing code to an app 
service and end-user deployment to pasting a link in an e-mail or IM.


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Re: Blazor popularity and use

[David Connors via ozdotnet]

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:30, Greg Keogh  wrote:

> Sure, deploying a web app to a server is easier than distributing thick
> client updates to many recipients, but that's a lucky side-effect. I stand
> by my claim that the web browser is a woefully inadequate host for business
> applications.
>

Pretty much every application is delivered on the web these days.

Even popular thick client apps are just web technologies built into a
binary. Looking over what I have open at the moment: Safari, Edge, Azure
Data Studio (built on electron), Teams (built on react), Discord (built on
electron), Microsoft TODO (???), Word/Excel/PPTX (C++/PAL).

David.
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RE: Blazor popularity and use

[Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet]

It was always about the IT people though, not the users.

Outlook as a web app is a good example. It has had enormous funds spent on 
producing it, likely far more than pretty much any other web app.

But shown the web app and the desktop app, users pick the desktop one pretty 
much every time.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | 
About Greg:  https://about.me/greg.low

From: David Connors via ozdotnet 
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:00 PM
To: ozDotNet 
Cc: David Connors 
Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use



On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet 
mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote
I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET<http://ASP.NET>, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all 
finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web 
browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present 
serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was 
invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, 
it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering 
business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the 
weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state.

You have a short memory of what it was like deploying apps back when thick 
clients were the only option. Modern web has done more to streamline ops than 
anything else and reduced application deployment to pushing code to an app 
service and end-user deployment to pasting a link in an e-mail or IM.


-- 
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To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/ 

Re: Blazor popularity and use

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

Sure, deploying a web app to a server is easier than distributing thick
client updates to many recipients, but that's a lucky side-effect. I stand
by my claim that the web browser is a woefully inadequate host for business
applications. I even have an example from today ...

A Blazor app version update was published, with some small fixes and UI
tweaks which required css changes. I get a report that some clients are
seeing parts of the page squashed or the text is ugly mixed sizes. After
some back-and-forth with suggested quick fixes, the only fix was to clear
the browser cache and restart the browser, which is really irritating for
non-technical clients. I'm sure there are ways around this problem, with
special meta tags or similar tricks, but it's more hoops to jump through
and a good example of just how crappy the web browser is for business use.

 -- *Greg*

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:08, David Connors via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote
>
>> I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all
>> finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web
>> browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to
>> present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web
>> browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of
>> cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely
>> inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at
>> the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web
>> development is in a lamentable state.
>>
>
> You have a short memory of what it was like deploying apps back when thick
> clients were the only option. Modern web has done more to streamline ops
> than anything else and reduced application deployment to pushing code to an
> app service and end-user deployment to pasting a link in an e-mail or IM.
>
>
> --
> ozdotnet mailing list
> To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
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Re: Blazor popularity and use

[Tony Wright via ozdotnet]

bwahaha, that just sounds like confirmation bias.

The reason SSW might be seeing more Blazor is because that is what they are
convincing their customers to use.

But in terms of what is really happening out there, there are some stats
around, such as the following:
Most used web frameworks among developers 2023 | Statista


As far as a client framework goes, it looks like React is the winner with
40+%. NodeJs is a server side framework so it doesn't really count. Angular
and Angular 1 together make up about 25%. Blazor is only about 5%.
Interestingly, ASP.NET and ASP.NET CORE make up about 30%



On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 1:13 PM Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> If demand *for SSW* to use Blazor is overtaking JS, then I'd believe it.
> I saw the statement made.
>
> I've never met a living person who uses Flutter, or the Dart language for
> that matter. It would be a brave decision to choose that as a development
> platform for the future.
>
> Does MAUI generate browser hosted web apps? I didn't think it was made for
> that purpose, but maybe it does. I haven't looked yet.
>
> If you don't want to use a JavaScript framework, then Webassembly is the
> future. I see there is a proposal to take JavaScript out of the stack so
> that Wasm can talk directly to the browser DOM, which I think would be a
> great leap forward because the JS layer is an utterly useless link in the
> chain. Then we can finally consign JavaScript to the rubbish bin of history
> where it belongs.
>
> *GK*
>
> On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:47, Tony Wright via ozdotnet <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree. React demand is far higher than any other front end framework as
>> far as I can see. Angular ticks all the corporate governance boxes but it
>> is so unwieldy and requires so much boilerplate before getting to the
>> business logic it has really lost the war. Most of it comes down to
>> popularity. If something it discovered that it fast superior to everything
>> else, you usually see it rocket up the list. Blazor doesn't seem to be
>> doing that unfortunately. Vue should be more popular. NodeJs if you want a
>> pure JavaScript approach. But if you don't want a JavaScript framework what
>> choices do you have? .Net Maui? Flutter?
>>
>> On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 12:31 pm DotNet Dude via ozdotnet, <
>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I find it very hard to believe Blazor demand has overtaken JS. That’s an
>>> insane comment from Adam
>>>
>>> On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 12:05, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
>>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>>
 Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used
> it for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere
> that uses Blazor, not a single one!


 Compared to server-side ASP.NET and JS Frameworks, Blazor is a gift
 from heaven .. well ... sort-of. Here's a Friday story.

 With the death of Silverlight, we had to replace an app with a quite
 rich UI with something else, what?! Like many people, I was spitting chips
 angry at the suggestion we must replace our Silverlight apps with HTML5
 apps. The idea that HTML+CSS+JS could replace a WPF-like rich web UI made
 me laugh and cry at the same time.

 Angular was really popular around 2018 so we got an offer to write a JS
 replacement for $200/hr. I then decided to learn Angular and watched 5
 hours of a 10 hour Angular course, at which point I gave up and said f**k
 that s**t. Now what?

 Luckily, Blazor 0.9 was in preview around this time. I spent a whole
 Sunday afternoon experimenting with Blazor. By the end of the day I had
 quite a sophisticated hobby app working with only a few hundred lines of
 coding, thanks to the familiarity of using VS, C# and Razor markup (with a
 bit of JS). The same app in ASP.NET would have taken 5 times as long
 and 5 times the code. The same app in Angular would have required
 unfamiliar tooling and millions of lines of script.

 To answer your question, I have one quite complex Blazor app being used
 by some huge US companies to analyse marketing data (using Telerik and
 SpreadJS components to attempt to make charts and grids as fancy as was
 possible in Silverlight). I have a couple of smaller apps in live use, and
 few little ones for utility use.

 I know the guys at Melbourne App Development
  are really keen on Blazor and
 were using it for some serious apps just as it reached version 1.0. About
 18 months ago, Adam Cogan at SSW said during the preamble to one of their
 monthly presentations, that Blazor demand had overtaken JS.

 I hope other people in here have similar stories.

 I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all
 

Re: Blazor popularity and use

[Greg Keogh via ozdotnet]

If demand *for SSW* to use Blazor is overtaking JS, then I'd believe it. I
saw the statement made.

I've never met a living person who uses Flutter, or the Dart language for
that matter. It would be a brave decision to choose that as a development
platform for the future.

Does MAUI generate browser hosted web apps? I didn't think it was made for
that purpose, but maybe it does. I haven't looked yet.

If you don't want to use a JavaScript framework, then Webassembly is the
future. I see there is a proposal to take JavaScript out of the stack so
that Wasm can talk directly to the browser DOM, which I think would be a
great leap forward because the JS layer is an utterly useless link in the
chain. Then we can finally consign JavaScript to the rubbish bin of history
where it belongs.

*GK*

On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:47, Tony Wright via ozdotnet <
ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

> I agree. React demand is far higher than any other front end framework as
> far as I can see. Angular ticks all the corporate governance boxes but it
> is so unwieldy and requires so much boilerplate before getting to the
> business logic it has really lost the war. Most of it comes down to
> popularity. If something it discovered that it fast superior to everything
> else, you usually see it rocket up the list. Blazor doesn't seem to be
> doing that unfortunately. Vue should be more popular. NodeJs if you want a
> pure JavaScript approach. But if you don't want a JavaScript framework what
> choices do you have? .Net Maui? Flutter?
>
> On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 12:31 pm DotNet Dude via ozdotnet, <
> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>
>> I find it very hard to believe Blazor demand has overtaken JS. That’s an
>> insane comment from Adam
>>
>> On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 12:05, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <
>> ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used
 it for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere
 that uses Blazor, not a single one!
>>>
>>>
>>> Compared to server-side ASP.NET and JS Frameworks, Blazor is a gift
>>> from heaven .. well ... sort-of. Here's a Friday story.
>>>
>>> With the death of Silverlight, we had to replace an app with a quite
>>> rich UI with something else, what?! Like many people, I was spitting chips
>>> angry at the suggestion we must replace our Silverlight apps with HTML5
>>> apps. The idea that HTML+CSS+JS could replace a WPF-like rich web UI made
>>> me laugh and cry at the same time.
>>>
>>> Angular was really popular around 2018 so we got an offer to write a JS
>>> replacement for $200/hr. I then decided to learn Angular and watched 5
>>> hours of a 10 hour Angular course, at which point I gave up and said f**k
>>> that s**t. Now what?
>>>
>>> Luckily, Blazor 0.9 was in preview around this time. I spent a whole
>>> Sunday afternoon experimenting with Blazor. By the end of the day I had
>>> quite a sophisticated hobby app working with only a few hundred lines of
>>> coding, thanks to the familiarity of using VS, C# and Razor markup (with a
>>> bit of JS). The same app in ASP.NET would have taken 5 times as long
>>> and 5 times the code. The same app in Angular would have required
>>> unfamiliar tooling and millions of lines of script.
>>>
>>> To answer your question, I have one quite complex Blazor app being used
>>> by some huge US companies to analyse marketing data (using Telerik and
>>> SpreadJS components to attempt to make charts and grids as fancy as was
>>> possible in Silverlight). I have a couple of smaller apps in live use, and
>>> few little ones for utility use.
>>>
>>> I know the guys at Melbourne App Development
>>>  are really keen on Blazor and
>>> were using it for some serious apps just as it reached version 1.0. About
>>> 18 months ago, Adam Cogan at SSW said during the preamble to one of their
>>> monthly presentations, that Blazor demand had overtaken JS.
>>>
>>> I hope other people in here have similar stories.
>>>
>>> I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all
>>> finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web
>>> browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to
>>> present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web
>>> browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of
>>> cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely
>>> inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at
>>> the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web
>>> development is in a lamentable state.
>>>
>>> *Greg Keogh*
>>> --
>>> ozdotnet mailing list
>>> To manage your subscription, access archives:
>>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>>
>> --
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>> https://codify.mailman3.com/
>
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