[ozmidwifery] Vaginal U/S
Hi List, I was living in Holland when I was pregnant and had 2 vaginal ultrasounds. The first one at 10 weeks (for a small bleed) and the second at 13 weeks (for nuchal fold test). I asked the Obst. why a vaginal u/sound, and he said that he could get a better view of the fetus at this early gestation. These were done by two different Obs. and is standard in the 1st trimester. The 20 week scan was abdominal. Liza PS. Jo - love your quote - " Babies are born Pizzas are delivered" (rings a bell somewhere )
Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal ultrasounds
Hmmm - ultrasounds to confirm womens dates this early on - I thought that the 20wk ultrasound was supposed to do this. Surely 20wks notice is sufficient of an impending birth if the OB wants an accurate date? And this way the woman would only "have to have" one ultrasound in her pregnancy - maybe a pertinent argument as there seems to be some (questionable) link between autism and frequent ultrasounds. I wonder if they would change their minds if this link was proven or if someone just tried to sue on the suspected risk anyway. After all they are all scared of being sued for cerebal palsy caused by birth injury even though the evidence these days is that this condition is more likely a defect in formation than a problem caused by birth. Debby Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal ultrasounds
Hmmm - ultrasounds to confirm womens dates this early on - I thought that the 20wk ultrasound was supposed to do this. Surely 20wks notice is sufficient of an impending birth if the OB wants an accurate date? And this way the woman would only "have to have" one ultrasound in her pregnancy - maybe a pertinent argument as there seems to be some (questionable) link between autism and frequent ultrasounds. I wonder if they would change their minds if this link was proven or if someone just tried to sue on the suspected risk anyway. After all they are all scared of being sued for cerebal palsy caused by birth injury even though the evidence these days is that this condition is more likely a defect in formation than a problem caused by birth. Debby Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Mastitis
Sheena I am not a lactation consultant but a mum who has "suffered" from this. With my first child I was given antibiotics (I was pretty sick) and advised to feed from both sides. The doctor I saw said that (gross as it sounds) the babys suckling is one of the best forms of clearing the infected ducts and the baby will not become sick from this as the "bugs" in the milk that comes from the infected duct are killed by the stomach acid. My mastitis cleared up within a couple of days and my soncontinued to thrive. I would be interested to hear other opinions though. Debby Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound
I was thinking about asking about vaginal US last week as I listened to a girlfriend tell me about her personal need to have two done to prove she was pregnant. The first was done too early and they only saw a sack. It is becoming the norm, her girlfriend has had numerous scans done as well due to having miscarried once. Women are more and more being taught how unreliable their bodies are at having a baby. We were under more pressure from well intentioned friends for not having an ultrasound at all with nunmber three than I could have imagined. We read the AIMS booklet on ultrasound, forget the title, great information and easy enough for lay people to understand. Thoroughly recommend it. Until birth is returned to women, their families and midwives I see this type of care only increasing. Megan. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ?
In a message dated 8/09/02 4:18:59 PM AUS Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Denise and list, I asked an Adelaide ABA member (in an unnofficial way) to approach the board re NMAP , this is part of what she was able to reply to me The reply that I have received back from one of the board members mentions the following concerns: 1. How well educated in the art of breastfeeding are the midwives? Will there be consistency of care and information? 2. What commitment to breastfeeding does this body have? 3. Are there any WHO Code issues involved? 4. ABA probably doesn't have a 'place' entering a political sphere primarily between midwives and obstetricians. There are big questions here that would need considerable discussion and the board feels that at this time they cannot justify the time and energy to pursue this cause. There are so many response to this, even without time and energy spent. Regards Megan What the??? An absolutely speechless Tina Pettigrew..
RE: [ozmidwifery] Re: Gym balls/birth balls
Geelong Hospital have them in all their birthing suites. Sally Westbury
Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: Gym balls/birth balls
In a message dated 8/09/02 9:46:16 AM AUS Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am looking for information and policies for use of gym balls in public hospitals. Thankyou, Barbara Stokes, Parkes, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Barbara... why is a policy needed for this??? We don't have policies for women sitting on chairs in labour...using the toilet May I ask whose asking for a policy for their use...and why they think they need one?? Just interested and trying to figure out a context for thismy gut says medico legal?? If so... then this is policy gone mad!! Yours in birth, Tina Pettigrew
Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal ultrasounds
Hi Debby: It is my understanding that only u/s in the first trimester is accurate enough to give reliable dates with u/s (I only repeated that becauseI firmly believe that the woman is the most reliable source however sometimes the mum doesn't know: irregular menses or lactation ammenohrea (sp) and (amazingly) frequent intercourse and so, if dates are going to be an issue (postdate protocols) then a first trimester u/s may be justified. I think the 20 week u/s may be the one that is deleted because if the mum is interested in nuchal fold thickness then (I think) the optimal time is either 11 weeks or 14 weeks (I can't remember which one, but there is an article in the BIRTH journal on this 2000 or 2001) definetly not 20 weeks. So, if this nuchal fold thickness measurement is important for clients regarding continuation of the pregnancy, then I guess a first trimester vaginal u/s is required. I shuddered when I saw my first vaginal probe. I guess there is no way to make them differently (they just are very phallic)which is why great sensitivity must be employed by caregivers using them. The 20 weeks u/s has been used for scanning fetal anatomy for anomalies but is not reliable for dating. I peronally don't advise any of this without a medical concern, but, women need to be aware of all available services and so we do discuss these options too. marilyn - Original Message - From: Debby M To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 11:28 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal ultrasounds Hmmm - ultrasounds to confirm womens dates this early on - I thought that the 20wk ultrasound was supposed to do this. Surely 20wks notice is sufficient of an impending birth if the OB wants an accurate date? And this way the woman would only "have to have" one ultrasound in her pregnancy - maybe a pertinent argument as there seems to be some (questionable) link between autism and frequent ultrasounds. I wonder if they would change their minds if this link was proven or if someone just tried to sue on the suspected risk anyway. After all they are all scared of being sued for cerebal palsy caused by birth injury even though the evidence these days is that this condition is more likely a defect in formation than a problem caused by birth. Debby Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here-- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Re:training of Ambo's
Hi Megan, I know the case you are talking about - have met R twice. Don't know much about the education but I do think this needs following up in order to prevent this happening to someone else. They might not have such a good outcome - 5 minutes is 5 minutes too many in the case of cord prolapse. As for nationally - I have a relative in QLD who is an AO - have asked her what she is taught. Hopefully she'll get back to me soon. Let me know if I can help, hugs, Larissa - Original Message - From: Larry Megan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 3:48 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] training of Ambo's hi all does anyone know who trains the ambulance medico's on birth? Spoken to a woman who had premature spont rupture of membranes and a prolapse cord with twins. The ambo officers wanted her to transfer to hospital on her back. A good 5 minute arguement followed as she tried to convince them she would be travelling on all fours with bum in the air and one hand holding in the cord. She won, but it should never have happened. Later birthed by CS twin boys, all well. So is there the option of teaching the people who work the ambulances on the idea of woman centred care.? Would this be done nationally or within each state? Thinking it could be good to invite a representative to any gatherings people have (coffe mornings etc) re women centred care and take the oppurtunity to educate them. Regards Megan -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Re: Gym balls/birth balls
Tina, my gut says medico legal?? If so... then this is policy gone mad!! Yup - believe it or not people have sued in the US because of balls bursting or accidents falling off of them. Never underestimate the legal system! rolling eyes where does it end! Hugs, Larissa
[ozmidwifery] legal issues
can anyone counter sue for some one being just plain stupid! Surely we are a society that claims to be intelligent and informed and we demand our rights to make informed choices, but that right also carries the responsibility of consequences. Jo Bainbridgefounding member CARES SAemail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]phone: 08 8388 6918birth with trust, faith love...
Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal U/S
Hehe Thanks Eliza :) Had to put it in... been hearing the word 'delivered' too often lately :) Jo - Original Message - From: henk / eliza merbis PS. Jo - love your quote - " Babies are born Pizzas are delivered" (rings a bell somewhere )
[ozmidwifery] Our Bodies Our Babies
For a review of this book go to http://www.mup.unimelb.edu.au/catalogue/0_522_84982_2.html Really excellent read. In peace and joy Sally Westbury
RE: [ozmidwifery] Re:training of Ambo's
Conversly, We had a woman arrive with bottom in the air, and a cord prolaspe suspected.. really well managed. These ambo's saved that babies life. Sally -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Active Birthing
Hello, All on this List! I can't keep up with it. 111 messages waiting to be read, and so much work to do. Firstly, welcome to Ricardo. I love reading your news and views -- looks like the trip I've always wanted to make to Brazil will have to happen. Maybe between my Active Birth, Menstrual Marvels and Vocal Dance workshops and performances, we could get a tour together. No, I'm not joking! Next, alas, the Board of Ausdance SA, (the Australian Dance Council, South Australian Branch) have decided not to allow me to teach my Active Birth classes in the Ausdance studio, Adelaide. Guess why? Yep, fear of litigation. Since 1966, I have been teaching movement -- from Flamenco, Classical, Jazz dance, to coaching weight lifters, wrestlers, dancers, footballers, intellectually disabled adults, deaf, blind, asthmatics, gymnasts, speed skaters, figure skaters, geriatrics, pregnant women, dance and voice therapy, you name it...NEVER a single injury incurred in my classes or due to what's been learned. I was one of the first pushing for SAFE DANCE practises over thirty years ago, yet here's the very organisation that I've supported for almost all of its 25 years (I was one of itsearliest members) refusing to let me teach pregnant women there. Well, bugger it. I have a very small space at home but I'm going to teach here anyway. I have two women booked for this week, the first is coming tomorrow morning. So in terms of flyers, there will be no classes, only private sessions -- support people welcome. My home phone number is Adelaide 8333 2762. Times by arrangement. My website is http://www.chariot.net.au/~aviva If you're in Adelaide, I have a performance of "This is a War Zone, Baby -- Improvise!" coming up at Nexus Cabaret, Friday October 18th, 8:30 p.m. Wishingyou all love and strength, Aviva Sheb'a and yes, Babies are Born, Pizzas are Delivered. Can we make it our motto???
Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound
I refused ultrasounds with both pregnancies. I wanted proof that they could not possibly do my babies any harm. No proof, no u/s. And yes, I've also had miscarriages, been exposed to chemicals in the Vietnam war. I wanted to take full responsibility for whatever happened. Aviva - Original Message - From: Larry Megan To: ozmidwifery Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 4:26 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound I was thinking about asking about vaginal US last week as I listened to agirlfriend tell me about her personal need to have two done to prove she waspregnant.
RE: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ?
The ABA response really is in line with all that Kerreen Reiger said in her book Our Bodies, Our Babies The Forgotten Women's Movement I highly recommend this book especially in light of the current political climate. She write about how the ABA made decisions to remain apolitical. So it is disappointing that they remain in the same place and will not support a movement that is obviously pro-breastfeed!! Sheesh!!! She also write about how the homebirth movement deconstructed. Really worth a read. Sally Westbury
Re: [ozmidwifery] Mastitis
Leaning forward whilst feeding allows gravity to aid drainage. The Bowen Therapeutic Technique has a brilliant way of draining breast/lymph. Wish me luck on teaching that over the net! Aviva
Re: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ?
In a message dated 8/09/02 10:02:20 PM AUS Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The ABA response really is in line with all that Kerreen Reiger said in her book Our Bodies, Our Babies The Forgotten Women's Movement I highly recommend this book especially in light of the current political climate. She write about how the ABA made decisions to remain apolitical. So it is disappointing that they remain in the same place and will not support a movement that is obviously pro-breastfeed!! Sheesh!!! She also write about how the homebirth movement deconstructed. Really worth a read. Sally Westbury HI Sally.. its great to talk with you across the airwaves!! I too have Kerreen's Book 'Our Bodies our Babies" and yes its a fantastic book to bring us polically active 'newbees'...up to speed with what has come before and a valuable insight to the context of the political struggle for birth reformwith regards to the ABA.I love Kerreen's comments and review of the NMAA (as it was then). Re; the ABAKerreen commentates on the views of Maureen Minchin and her experiecnces with NMAA...Kerreen writes "Influential internationally, including as a consultatnt to the World Health Organisation, she [Minchin] was a forceful critic of the NMAA's approach to health professsionals which seemed both overly cautious, even obsequious, but on the other, quite patronising because they tended to see themselves as the true experts.." (Reiger 2001 p132). "..1. How well educated in the art of breastfeeding are the midwives? Will there be consistency of care and information? 2. What commitment to breastfeeding does this body have? 3. Are there any WHO Code issues involved? 4. ABA probably doesn't have a 'place' entering a political sphere primarily between midwives and obstetricians. There are big questions here that would need considerable discussion and the board feels that at this time they cannot justify the time and energy to pursue this cause." Sounds familiar ha?? with love TinaXX
Re: [ozmidwifery] training of Ambo's
I have a good friend who has recently left nursing to become an ambo in Victoria and they all go to ambo uni in frankston for all their lectures. Whn she left the hospital the girls from the maternity unit gave her a copy of Heart and Hands as a farewell gift. When the 'midwife' gave them lectures on birth she continually refered to delivery and Gil piped up and said isn't it a bit old hat to talk about delivery. Birthing is much more empowering to the woman. (We really had brain washed her over many years). Well the 'midwife' most emphatically told her that it didn't make any difference and gave Gil a really hard time after that. They get taught stuff like early clamping and the importance of getting the placenta out so the mother doesn't bleed to death and all that important stuff. Perhaps if someone lives near the college they could ring and volunteer as a lecturer and teach them better stuff. Andrea Quanchi On Sunday, September 8, 2002, at 04:18 PM, Larry Megan wrote: hi all does anyone know who trains the ambulance medico's on birth? Spoken to a woman who had premature spont rupture of membranes and a prolapse cord with twins. The ambo officers wanted her to transfer to hospital on her back. A good 5 minute arguement followed as she tried to convince them she would be travelling on all fours with bum in the air and one hand holding in the cord. She won, but it should never have happened. Later birthed by CS twin boys, all well. So is there the option of teaching the people who work the ambulances on the idea of woman centred care.? Would this be done nationally or within each state? Thinking it could be good to invite a representative to any gatherings people have (coffe mornings etc) re women centred care and take the oppurtunity to educate them. Regards Megan -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ?
Perhaps you could also try reading ABA's Code of Ethics, which may help you understand the direction they are coming from when deciding to remain apolitical. I can fully understand the logic behind the concern relating to the breastfeeding knowledge of many midwives. Although you may not like to admit it, the breastfeeding knowledge of many midwives is woeful. Many mothers have their breastfeeding relationships with their babies put right behind the eight ball from their earliest days in hospital. I had a midwife roll her eyes and scoff at me for refusing her offer of a complementary bottle of artificial infant formula for my twins when they were not quite 24 hours old and feeding very frequently. And this in a so called Baby Friendly Hospital! I have heard midwives in Special Care Nursery openly endorsing a mother's decision to formula feed her twins because breastfeeding would just take too much out of her. What utter rubbish! So, until theWHOLE profession becomes a bit more breastfeeding friendly, I can understand the reluctance behind any decision by ABA to endorse NMAP. But, remembering also, that this is all just hearsay and nothing has come directly from the horse's mouth so to speak. Before you condemn ABA, how about waiting to hear some official word? Surely that would be the fair thing to do? Brenda Kittelty - Original Message - From: Sally Westbury To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 9:15 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ? The ABA response really is in line with all that Kerreen Reiger said in her book Our Bodies, Our Babies The Forgotten Women's Movement I highly recommend this book especially in light of the current political climate. She write about how the ABA made decisions to remain apolitical. So it is disappointing that they remain in the same place and will not support a movement that is obviously pro-breastfeed!! Sheesh!!! She also write about how the homebirth movement deconstructed. Really worth a read. Sally Westbury
Re: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ?
"nursing Mother assoc" has never ever supported homebirth. I was never allowed to talk to women in the group about homebirth. It seems that activelynot supporting homebirth, while tacitly supporting hospital birth, is discrimination. I have always felt this way. MM - Original Message - From: Larry Megan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 2:18 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ? Hi Denise and list, I asked an Adelaide ABA member (in an unnofficial way) to approach the board re NMAP , this is part of what she was able to reply to me The reply that I have received back from one of the board members mentions the following concerns: 1. How well educated in the art of breastfeeding are the midwives? Will there be consistency of care and information? 2. What commitment to breastfeeding does this body have? 3. Are there any WHO Codeissues involved? 4. ABA probably doesn't have a 'place' entering a political sphere primarily between midwives and obstetricians. There are big questions here that would need considerable discussion and theboard feels that at this time they cannot justify the time and energy to pursue this cause. There are so many response to this, even without time and energy spent. Regards Megan -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Denise HyndSent: Friday, 6 September 2002 8:48To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] sleepless night Barbara I have sent at least three e-mails to the national ABA president asking the board to consider endorsing NMAP as the breastfeeding outcomes of this option are excellent. But so far I have not had a response?Can you please help??Denise hynd - Original Message - From: barbara glare chris bright To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 2:28 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] sleepless night Dear Denise, Yes, I am. Love, Barb [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ozmidwifery] Bendigo midwife
Mary, I am in Echuca, one hour from bendigo but know Helen Sanderson is practicing in Bendigo. I don't know if she is on the list but I will cc this to her Andrea Quanchi On Saturday, September 7, 2002, at 03:29 PM, Mary Murphy wrote: Is there a midwife practicing in homebirth in the Bendigo area? Is there a midwife /birth centre combination practice in Bendigo. If not, whats the other best option? thanks, Mary M
Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal ultrasounds
Once again thanks for the info re Vag Ultrasounds. I have a gut feeling that this is a dangerous procedure for the foetus as it gets so close to it and is not even " filtered" throught the abdominal fat and muscle. It is also a gross invasion of a woman's body. I wonder if the operator "gets off" on it? I also wonder about all the guff that goes on about how accurate ultrasound dating is at any period of pregnancy. I would like all u/s providers to have to keep and punlish accurate and up to date data on when the babies wered actually born in comparison to when u/s predicted they were due. MM
Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound
We read the AIMS booklet on ultrasound, It is called ultrasound, unsound MM -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ?
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ? Perhaps you could also try reading ABA's Code of Ethics, which may help you understand the direction they are coming from when deciding to remain apolitical. I can fully understand the logic behind the concern relating to the breastfeeding knowledge of many midwives. Although you may not like to admit it, the breastfeeding knowledge of many midwives is woeful. Many mothers have their breastfeeding relationships with their babies put right behind the eight ball from their earliest days in hospital. I had a midwife roll her eyes and scoff at me for refusing her offer of a complementary bottle of artificial infant formula for my twins when they were not quite 24 hours old and feeding very frequently. And this in a so called Baby Friendly Hospital! I have heard midwives in Special Care Nursery openly endorsing a mother's decision to formula feed her twins because breastfeeding would just take too much out of her. What utter rubbish! So, until the WHOLE profession becomes a bit more breastfeeding friendly, I can understand the reluctance behind any decision by ABA to endorse NMAP. But, remembering also, that this is all just hearsay and nothing has come directly from the horse's mouth so to speak. Before you condemn ABA, how about waiting to hear some official word? Surely that would be the fair thing to do? Brenda Kittelty Brenda and all I agree until there is an official response from ABA it is not constructive to condemn them. God knows they have achieved a lot over the years. What fractures me is the apolitical stance. This is CRAP. It is impossible for them as a group advocating the importance of human milk not to be political. Granted they can be very clear about their stance on particular parties, but they cannot be apolitical! It is also insane and counterproductive not to recognise one to one midwifery support in pregnancy and birth as an important feature in the success of breastfeeding and bonding. Yes first and foremost ABA promotes breastfeeding, but without an acknowledgement of what has taken place before and its link to breastfeeding success ABA is operating in a vacuum. To successfully support and empower women and to promote mothering in society we must take a holistic approach. Not all midwives will promote ABAs principles in their work and this is most unfortunate. If, however, the ABA was inclusive of the many wonderful midwives that honour women and promote the beautiful bond of breastfeeding we could only be doing a good thing. In Solidarity Justine Caines - Original Message - From: Sally Westbury mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 9:15 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ? The ABA response really is in line with all that Kerreen Reiger said in her book Our Bodies, Our Babies The Forgotten Women's Movement I highly recommend this book especially in light of the current political climate. She write about how the ABA made decisions to remain apolitical. So it is disappointing that they remain in the same place and will not support a movement that is obviously pro-breastfeed!! Sheesh!!! She also write about how the homebirth movement deconstructed. Really worth a read. Sally Westbury
Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound
In a message dated 9/8/02 8:01:19 PM W. Australia Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I refused ultrasounds with both pregnancies. I wanted proof that they could not possibly do my babies any harm. As with all things, there are two sides to every coin. Without ultrasound, my youngest child would - quite simply - not be here. With my second child I had U/S at 16 weeks (in the UK) and that was it. At 30 weeks I went into labour and, although my baby was born alive, he died aged 40 minutes. He was hydropic with fluid in both chest cavities. Despite a post mortum and a battery of tests on him and me, no cause was found. When pregnant again I was scanned regularly, and at 28 weeks gestation, my son was also found to be hydropic - again with pleural effusions. In this case, my son had chest drains inserted in utero, and was born at 34 weeks. His chest drains were removed immediately at birth, spent 12 days in special care, but never had any problems thereafter. He is now nearly 8. The point is that - and I'm sure no-one would doubt it - that scans have their place. In retrospect, I wish that I had had more scans with my second child - he may then have had the chance that my third did. But I too didn't see the point, after all I had already had one healthy child, and I had concerns over their safety. I am not saying that scans are the way to go far from it - just that scans do have a role - just as (dare I say it) do caesarean sections. :-) Debbie Slater Perth, WA
Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal ultrasounds
That's a great idea and one which would certainly validate the "need" for this early invasive procedure. Another U/S practice which has been creeping in over this side of the continent (and please share if it is happening in your neck of the woods) is the abdo U/S at each antenatal visit from around 38 weeks. Why you ask? Well so did I. And the answer that I'm being givenis for the Dr to check the position of the baby. Now pardon my cynicism but that's what I thought an abdominal palpation was all about Cheers Alesa Alesa KoziolClinical Midwifery EducatorMelbourne - Original Message - From: Mary Murphy To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal ultrasounds Once again thanks for the info re Vag Ultrasounds. I have a gut feeling that this is a dangerous procedure for the foetus as it gets so close to it and is not even " filtered" throught the abdominal fat and muscle. It is also a gross invasion of a woman's body. I wonder if the operator "gets off" on it? I also wonder about all the guff that goes on about how accurate ultrasound dating is at any period of pregnancy. I would like all u/s providers to have to keep and punlish accurate and up to date data on when the babies wered actually born in comparison to when u/s predicted they were due. MM
Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal ultrasounds and dating
Hi Jo, I agree that professionals (often docs) don't listen to mothers enough about dates of conception, instead relying on u/s dates. And this is the beginning of negating the mother's experience and knowledge of her pregancy as far as I'm concerned. Where I work an LMP date almost seems superfluous to the docs. However, I always feel like my job is easier when mothers are certain about their LMP dates and when they had intercourse. Just a reminder though that the date of intercourse in not necessarily the date of conception. Remember sperm can live up to seven days in the reproductive tract so there is still window of seven days where conception could occur. That said, if a mother is certain of dates that is what I use for dating pregnancy over u/s. Just had to get in my .02 cents worth of biological info... Meaghan Moon Manitoba, Canada At 11:57 AM 9/8/02 +0930, you wrote: With my last child the doctor whom I was seeing to get into the bc for a vbac (yeah right!) asked me when my LNMP was and I was able to tell him the date we conceived. He questioned that and said I think you are a couple of weeks out there. Now my hubby had gone to Sydney for a few weeks and we only has sex once before he left and due the limited opportunity allowed by our other children, the time before was a long and distant memory(imposed celibacy or sibling contraception don't you love it! I am sure it is just a survival technique to ensure no more rivals!) ANYWAY..this doctor would not take the fact that I knew when I conceived so I ended up asking him if he was hiding under the bed when Dean and I had sex? He went red and promptly went on to tell me that I didn't look good on paper to be in the birth centre WHAT IS IT WITH PROFESSIONALS NOT ACCEPTING THAT SOMETIMES THEY CAN BE WRONG? on the topic of Vag US, there is a private OB here who has an astronomical cs rate and surprise surprise she gives vag US every visit... Jo Bainbridge founding member CARES SA email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: 08 8388 6918 birth with trust, faith love... - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Justine Caines To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]OzMid List Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal ultrasounds They are routine where I work too... the obs use them to get more accurate dating. Eventhough most women know pretty much exactly the date of their LNMP... he still does it, to make sure. Ack. Jo Hi Jo and all Another furphy I suggest, as a vaginal US would be able to estimate the size of the foetus better I assume but still only place it against the averages of gestational sizes that US is based on, hence the +/- 2 weeks stuff. The routine totally unnecessary use of US is the catalyst to the induction craze. Women must be told their due date, hang knowing their own body, just throw it into the computer of averages!! As a consumer I get so sick of women needing to be told everything, totally discounting their role as the maker and birther of a baby!! At the same time I m branded as a lunatic for taking responsibility of my body and baby. Funny thing is that after this total abdication of responsibility in pregnancy and birth women are meant to fit back into society as normal citizens taking responsibility for themselves and baby (is this why we have so many post natal problems, women are lulled into a false sense of security and then on Day 6 postnatally whammo!). The notion of personal responsibility totally consistent with health policy for the last 10 years, but policy makers and governments refuse to hold obstetrics to account. I sincerely hope we are at the edge with the current PI crisis and NMAP helping to transform maternity services in this country. A little rattled this morning Justine Mum and responsible for Ruby nearly 3, Clancy 18 months and Will 2 months -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal ultrasounds
Hi Marilyn and everyone, Ref the dating. I checked with my other half who is a sonographer and he agreed that US up to 20wks is accurate for dating. He indicated that US at 20wks was usually +/- 3 days, earlier than this itwas +/- 5-7days and later than this could vary considerably - especially in 3rd trimester (hence the reason US is not a good predictor of fetal weight and birth size - another scare tactic often used to encourage early induction or csec). The problem with anatomical ultrasound of the fetus much before 18wks is that fetal measurements are too small to diagnose some major deformities - particularly of the heart and other organs - hence the recommendation for the US at this stage. However I personally would question how many women actually have terminations at this stage even if they are told bubs condition is fatal. You are quite right about nucal fold it is only relevant if done between 11 and 14 wks, but like all US is only an indicator of a risk not a definative diagnosis.He also indicated that a competent sonographer can get an accurate nuchal fold measurement abdominally in over 90% of clients, it is rare for them to have to do vaginal US - does this raise doubts about the sonography competence of some of the OBs doing this procedure? Maybe they should leave it to those who do years of training in it - the sonographers and radiologists - but then their own pockets wouldn't be lined (cynical I know). But of course all these "facts" still don't seem to justify the argument for routine early first trimester vaginal ultrasounds - so we really still don't have a justifiable answer - except the power thing. Debby Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] legal issues
Jo, After the birth of my first child I asked a lawyer friend of mine about the likelihood of sueing my OB for subjecting me and my son to an unnecessary induction (3hrs after natural ROM with no indicators of problems - ie infection, meconium etc), and without fully informing me of the risks of the procedure - I was just told that I would not go into labour naturally. This lead to a cascade of intervention which ultimately resulted in a (questionably) emergency csec. My friend advised me that whilst I could argue that the induction probably wasn't necessary with medical evidence (published accepted practice and medical research documents) I would be hard pushed to prove that the induction specifically lead to the cascade of intervention and thus the surgery and post surgery trauma I felt. He also said that one of the best "proofs" in cases of this nature was another "expert" who would back up the allegation - and in his experience most OBs would not discredit another OB - even if they did not agree with his/her practices - unless it was an obvious case of gross negligence. So we are caught between a rock and a hard place. DebbyJoin the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ?
MY feelings exactly, I didn't think I could put my first response on the list. marilyn - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ? In a message dated 8/09/02 4:18:59 PM AUS Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Denise and list,I asked an Adelaide ABA member (in an unnofficial way) to approach the board re NMAP , this is part of what she was able to reply to meThe reply that I have received back from one of the board members mentions the following concerns:1. How well educated in the art of breastfeeding are the midwives? Will there be consistency of care and information?2. What commitment to breastfeeding does this body have?3. Are there any WHO Code issues involved?4. ABA probably doesn't have a 'place' entering a political sphere primarily between midwives and obstetricians.There are big questions here that would need considerable discussion and the board feels that at this time they cannot justify the time and energy to pursue this cause.There are so many response to this, even without time and energy spent. Regards MeganWhat the???An absolutely speechlessTina Pettigrew..
Re: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound
Dear Larissa: I think this sort of extra medical care exists in all parts of the medical industry they (whoever they may be doctors, pr people advertisers, martketeers) have created a population of worried well who just want to be sure nothing is wrong at any stage of our lives. Partly I think this is because we are largely a well population mainly beseiged now by diseases of laziness and glutony (myself included) unwilling to take personal responsibility for our own health care. For medical practitioners of all types providing care to a well population is an income challenge hence the promotion of wellness technologies: the shole body CAT scan to detect any abnormality before it manifests, even perhaps dental cleaning ( I personally like getting my teeth cleaned and go eagerly for my twice yearly clean when I have a dental plan that covers it). So, I don't think it is too amazing that this attitude to health care flows onto pregnancy care even well pregnancy care. I think we need a whole change of attitude to our health and probably some good PR and marketing. EEK! marilyn - Original Message - From: Larry Megan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 11:56 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] vaginal ultrasound I was thinking about asking about vaginal US last week as I listened to a girlfriend tell me about her personal need to have two done to prove she was pregnant. The first was done too early and they only saw a sack. It is becoming the norm, her girlfriend has had numerous scans done as well due to having miscarried once. Women are more and more being taught how unreliable their bodies are at having a baby. We were under more pressure from well intentioned friends for not having an ultrasound at all with nunmber three than I could have imagined. We read the AIMS booklet on ultrasound, forget the title, great information and easy enough for lay people to understand. Thoroughly recommend it. Until birth is returned to women, their families and midwives I see this type of care only increasing. Megan. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ?
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ? Have to support Brenda's comments. I am working for a Large Council at present, solving all their breastfeeding problems in the home. Home visiting is the key element so that women don't have to be dragged out of their homes again after discharge from hospital. The Maternal Child Health Nurses do early referral that is soon after they arrive home often on the 2nd day, whenever there is a problem.Sooo many distressed, pained and injured women. The most common comment is the overwhelming feeling of conflicting advice given in the hospital system and thedislike of "Ramming" their baby to the breast by the back of the head and the breast tissue damage caused by the over vigorous people who express the women's breasts. I am currently writing about this and discussinguse of the database with the Maternal Child Health Co-coordinatorfor educational purposes on a Power Point Presentation. It is really easy the education process for breastfeeding here at least needs review. Look after our women, breastfeeding in the main is innate and the baby has these wonderful neurological skills that need to be used to encourage the beginnings of a lifetime of achievement. Women and babies know best. Just listen for a while. Keep up the good work Robyn Thompson -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Justine CainesSent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 11:46 PMTo: OzMid ListSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ? Perhaps you could also try reading ABA's Code of Ethics, which may help you understand the direction they are coming from when deciding to remain apolitical. I can fully understand the logic behind the concern relating to the breastfeeding knowledge of many midwives. Although you may not like to admit it, the breastfeeding knowledge of many midwives is woeful. Many mothers have their breastfeeding relationships with their babies put right behind the eight ball from their earliest days in hospital. I had a midwife roll her eyes and scoff at me for refusing her offer of a complementary bottle of artificial infant formula for my twins when they were not quite 24 hours old and feeding very frequently. And this in a so called Baby Friendly Hospital! I have heard midwives in Special Care Nursery openly endorsing a mother's decision to formula feed her twins because breastfeeding would just take too much out of her. What utter rubbish! So, until the WHOLE profession becomes a bit more breastfeeding friendly, I can understand the reluctance behind any decision by ABA to endorse NMAP. But, remembering also, that this is all just hearsay and nothing has come directly from the horse's mouth so to speak. Before you condemn ABA, how about waiting to hear some official word? Surely that would be the fair thing to do?Brenda KitteltyBrenda and allI agree until there is an official response from ABA it is not constructive to condemn them. God knows they have achieved a lot over the years. What fractures me is the apolitical stance. This is CRAP. It is impossible for them as a group advocating the importance of human milk not to be political. Granted they can be very clear about their stance on particular parties, but they cannot be apolitical!It is also insane and counterproductive not to recognise one to one midwifery support in pregnancy and birth as an important feature in the success of breastfeeding and bonding. Yes first and foremost ABA promotes breastfeeding, but without an acknowledgement of what has taken place before and its link to breastfeeding success ABA is operating in a vacuum.To successfully support and empower women and to promote mothering in society we must take a holistic approach. Not all midwives will promote ABAs principles in their work and this is most unfortunate. If, however, the ABA was inclusive of the many wonderful midwives that honour women and promote the beautiful bond of breastfeeding we could only be doing a good thing.In SolidarityJustine Caines- Original Message - From: Sally Westbury mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 9:15 PMSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] ABA endorsing NMAP ?The ABA response really is in line with all that Kerreen Reiger said in her book Our Bodies, Our Babies The Forgotten Women's Movement I highly recommend this book especially in light of the current political climate. She write about how the ABA made decisions to remain apolitical. So it is disappointing that they remain in the same place and will not support a movement that is obviously pro-breastfeed!! Sheesh!!! She also write about how the homebirth movement
RE: [ozmidwifery] Active Birthing
Title: Message Aviva...just had a wander through your website...fantastic to read of your adventures! With love and Warm Wishes...Vicki -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Aviva Sheb'aSent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 4:46 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [ozmidwifery] Active Birthing Hello, All on this List! I can't keep up with it. 111 messages waiting to be read, and so much work to do. Firstly, welcome to Ricardo. I love reading your news and views -- looks like the trip I've always wanted to make to Brazil will have to happen. Maybe between my Active Birth, Menstrual Marvels and Vocal Dance workshops and performances, we could get a tour together. No, I'm not joking! Next, alas, the Board of Ausdance SA, (the Australian Dance Council, South Australian Branch) have decided not to allow me to teach my Active Birth classes in the Ausdance studio, Adelaide. Guess why? Yep, fear of litigation. Since 1966, I have been teaching movement -- from Flamenco, Classical, Jazz dance, to coaching weight lifters, wrestlers, dancers, footballers, intellectually disabled adults, deaf, blind, asthmatics, gymnasts, speed skaters, figure skaters, geriatrics, pregnant women, dance and voice therapy, you name it...NEVER a single injury incurred in my classes or due to what's been learned. I was one of the first pushing for SAFE DANCE practises over thirty years ago, yet here's the very organisation that I've supported for almost all of its 25 years (I was one of itsearliest members) refusing to let me teach pregnant women there. Well, bugger it. I have a very small space at home but I'm going to teach here anyway. I have two women booked for this week, the first is coming tomorrow morning. So in terms of flyers, there will be no classes, only private sessions -- support people welcome. My home phone number is Adelaide 8333 2762. Times by arrangement. My website is http://www.chariot.net.au/~aviva If you're in Adelaide, I have a performance of "This is a War Zone, Baby -- Improvise!" coming up at Nexus Cabaret, Friday October 18th, 8:30 p.m. Wishingyou all love and strength, Aviva Sheb'a and yes, Babies are Born, Pizzas are Delivered. Can we make it our motto???
RE: [ozmidwifery] Bendigo midwife
Title: Message Mary, I have had an independent midwifery practice in the Bendigo area for many years but in May I decided to formally retire from clinical practice. There is no birth centre as such anymore. However, despite the insurance difficulties, one midwife has started independent practice here makingtwo midwives practicing in the Bendigo area (though not together). ButI don't know if I am at liberty to mention theirnameson ozmid, please email me directly, Jenny Jenny ParrattIndependent Midwife ConsultantPO Mandurang Vic 3551 Australia0409 393073[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Mary MurphySent: Saturday, 7 September 2002 3:30 PMTo: listSubject: [ozmidwifery] Bendigo midwife Is there a midwife practicing in homebirth in the Bendigo area? Is there a midwife /birth centre combination practice in Bendigo. If not, whats the other best option? thanks, Mary M
[ozmidwifery] Make the PM support NMAP
Dear All Does any one have an e-mail address for John Howard? We need to bombard him, SC, ML BB with requests to support !! I have sent the e-mail below via his site feedback boxes at http://www.pm.gov.au/your_feedback/feedback.htm and the Copies to meg lees [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Simon Crean [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] and bob Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] at their e-mail addresses as above Subject: Support women's Birth Choices Dear John Howard I commend your public verbal and financial support of women's right to choices regarding career and family options (Sydney Morning Herald; 7th September 2002). Now it is time to give financial support to the consumer driven National Maternity Action Plan (www.communitymidwifery.iinet.net.au/nmapcampaign) to give all women access to positive, cost effective choices in birthing which will benefit families!Yours sincerely Denise Hynd CC Simon Crean, Meg Lees, Bob Brown
Re: [ozmidwifery] Mastitis
It is important to empty the breast and the most efficiant way is with the baby correctly attached Denise - Original Message - From: Sheena Johnson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 1:04 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] Mastitis Any of the lactation consultants out there give me some advise on feeding on the affected breast if the woman has mastitis. Ruby's mum has just got mastitis after Ruby slept through for 5 hours. Just to make life really miserable Ruby has had bronchitis and is also on antibiotics. The doctor advised Lynley not to feed off the affected side but to express, I thought the thing to do was to keep on feeding? Sheena Johnson
Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal ultrasounds
Just goes to show how quickly the research changes. I just graduated and we were taught never to rely on any u/sother than a first trimester u/s for dating (and that only if the mom had no idea of dates as referred to previously). The research just 6 months ago was saying +/- 2weeks at 18 - 20 weeks and +/- 1 week at 11-13 weeks. This was not because of the accuracy of the u/s but the then understood "fact" that in the first trimester there is little individual variation in size for most gestations that is most 8 weeks pregnancies will have the same size sac, embryo etc. and so individual variation will have little or a small effect if any on size. So a relialable estimation of dates can be made based on size. However, from the first trimester individual variation takes over and not all 20 week fetuses will be the same size and so while the u/s sound measurement may be accurate to 1 week or even +/- 3 days, the variation in size due to genetics must also be taken into account. Please correct me if there is research to indicate that individual growth variations occur later in pregnancy than the 2nd trimester. This is why we were taught not to rely on later u/s (post 1st trimester)for dates if u/s was the dating method. Obviously this is a field that is changing very quickly. I agree that abdominal u/s for nuchal fold thickness should be the method of choice and vaginal u/s only used if resolution cannot be obtained, a decision the sonographer is qualified to make. Again continuity of care and time in prenatals to discuss options with women is vital, reliance on technology really brings the issue of informed choice into focus. marilyn - Original Message - From: Debby M To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Vaginal ultrasounds Hi Marilyn and everyone, Ref the dating. I checked with my other half who is a sonographer and he agreed that US up to 20wks is accurate for dating. He indicated that US at 20wks was usually +/- 3 days, earlier than this itwas +/- 5-7days and later than this could vary considerably - especially in 3rd trimester (hence the reason US is not a good predictor of fetal weight and birth size - another scare tactic often used to encourage early induction or csec). The problem with anatomical ultrasound of the fetus much before 18wks is that fetal measurements are too small to diagnose some major deformities - particularly of the heart and other organs - hence the recommendation for the US at this stage. However I personally would question how many women actually have terminations at this stage even if they are told bubs condition is fatal. You are quite right about nucal fold it is only relevant if done between 11 and 14 wks, but like all US is only an indicator of a risk not a definative diagnosis.He also indicated that a competent sonographer can get an accurate nuchal fold measurement abdominally in over 90% of clients, it is rare for them to have to do vaginal US - does this raise doubts about the sonography competence of some of the OBs doing this procedure? Maybe they should leave it to those who do years of training in it - the sonographers and radiologists - but then their own pockets wouldn't be lined (cynical I know). But of course all these "facts" still don't seem to justify the argument for routine early first trimester vaginal ultrasounds - so we really still don't have a justifiable answer - except the power thing. Debby Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: Click Here-- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] Day 3 weight loss
I am finding an alarming amount of babies losing more than 10% of their birth weight on day 3. Is anyone else out there experiencing this and are there any studies on this subject. This is particularly babies of caucasian mothers. Can anyone shed light on this for me? Irene Munro Alice Springs __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] virus
I was having terrible troubles with same till I downloaded the free anti-virus software from: www.grisoft.com Never looked back! aviva - Original Message - From: Robin Moon To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 1:29 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] virus i"m sorry, it's me spreading the virus via Outlook Express. It's Klez H
[ozmidwifery] Fw: Why men are not secretaries
Read it out aloud if you don't get it. Typical Male. Husband's note on refrigerator to his wife: "Someone from the Guyna Colleges called. They said the Pabst beer is normal. I didn't even know you liked beer."
Re: [ozmidwifery] Bottled water
(distilled water) : it contains no minerals andwill actually leach them from your body. Spring/mineral waters contain inorganic minerals which the body cannot use, or get rid of very well. Distilled water leaches these inorganic minerals from the body - which is actually beneficial. The water infresh fruits vegetables are 'distilled' have the same effect. Distilled water cannot leach organic minerals from the body, which are already a part of the body's cells. I don't know specifically about formula, but this applies to adults, and I presume, babies as well! Merridy Koch Irene There are many different types of bottled water. You can buy distilled water which would be fine as it is just H2O, but spring or mineral water would nnot be appropriate - I think they all generally have a list of the minerals which are contained in them on the labels. Sandra - Original Message - From: Irene Munro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 2:53 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] Bottled water Does anyone have any info regarding the use of bottled water when making up formula. I have just heard that it contains more sodium than tap stuff, is this true? irene Munro LC Alice Springs ___! ! ___ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.--This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe. Yahoo! Messenger for SMS - Now send & receive IMs on your mobile via SMS
Re: [ozmidwifery] Day 3 weight loss
Is this in a hospital? Check the mothers diets! What is on the menu for them? I am sure that most hospital diets are not "breastfeeding friendly". Just my thoughts Rhonda. ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, September 09, 2002 11:49:02 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ozmidwifery] Day 3 weight loss I am finding an alarming amount of babies losing morethan 10% of their birth weight on day 3. Is anyoneelse out there experiencing this and are there anystudies on this subject. This is particularly babiesof caucasian mothers. Can anyone shed light on thisfor me?Irene MunroAlice Springs__Do You Yahoo!?Everything you'll ever need on one web pagefrom News and Sport to Email and Music Chartshttp://uk.my.yahoo.com--This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.. IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
[ozmidwifery] Fw: New Virus
I am not sure if this is real or not, but better safe than sorry... Rhonda. New Virus FOR THOSE THAT DON'T KNOW, "WTC" STANDS FOR THE WORLD TRADE CENTER..WHICH MAKES THIS VIRUS REALLY DANGEROUS BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL OPEN IT RIGHT AWAY.THINKING ITS A STORY RELATING TO 9/11 BI TROUBLE DO NOT OPEN "WTC Survivor" It is a virus that will erase your whole "C" drive. It will come to you in the form of an E-Mail from a familiar person!! I repeat a friend sent it to me, but called and warned me before I opened it. He was not so lucky and now he can't even start his computer! Forward this to everyone in your address book. I would rather receive this 25 times than not at all. So if you receive an email called "WTC Survivor" do NOT open it !! Delete it right away! This virus removes all dynamic link libraries (! .dll files) from your computer. PLEASE FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO OTHERS !!! IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
Re: [ozmidwifery] legal issues
I too asked about my situation - I could say that it may not have been necesary to do the c/s if they had ruptured the membrane or at least examined me within 8 hours of getting to the hospital (they didn't but the dr was busy!) I could say that the dr had stated that iw as a waste of time - the only proof was a midwife who seems illusive now. (whoops - no witness!) I can even prove thatthey cut me crroked and sewed me up crooked. - No guarantee that they wouldn't do this. I could state that they did not inform me of risks etc etc... The problem is - I either don't have enough actual proof of what was said (no witnesses) the medical records have been writen in a CTA way (Cover Their Ass). And because i didn't deliver vaginally there is no proof I would have or could have. Stuck between what I know to be true and the "medical" truth. So they are no liable unless they kill you and even then I am sure they would say - but there is no proof she would have lived if I had not done that. LOL Rhonda. -Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, September 09, 2002 07:45:21 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] legal issues Jo, After the birth of my first child I asked a lawyer friend of mine about the likelihood of sueing my OB for subjecting me and my son to an unnecessary induction (3hrs after natural ROM with no indicators of problems - ie infection, meconium etc), and without fully informing me of the risks of the procedure - I was just told that I would not go into labour naturally. This lead to a cascade of intervention which ultimately resulted in a (questionably) emergency csec. My friend advised me that whilst I could argue that the induction probably wasn't necessary with medical evidence (published accepted practice and medical research documents) I would be hard pushed to prove that the induction specifically lead to the cascade of intervention and thus the surgery and post surgery trauma I felt. He also said that one of the best "proofs" in cases of this nature was another "expert" who would back up the allegation - and in his experience most OBs would not discredit another OB - even if they did not agree with his/her practices - unless it was an obvious case of gross negligence. So we are caught between a rock and a hard place. Debby Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. Click Here IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
[ozmidwifery] SMH Letter
Hi, Got this one in - intended to make people aware before they read the same kinds of comments about NMAP!! Shall we take bets on the first message of a similar ilk to be sighted/heard after September 24? - Sydney Morning Herald September 9, 2002 Predictable diagnosis Forget the first sightings of blowies each spring and the first pronouncements about tinderboxes each summer. It is much more fun waiting for the Australian Medical Association spokesperson tointone the inevitable a disaster waiting to happen and experimenting with patients' lives each time a health initiative is announced that they feel challenges doctors' status or power. Andrea Robertson, Annandale, September 6. -- - Andrea Robertson Birth International * ACE Graphics * Associates in Childbirth Education e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.birthinternational.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Day 3 weight loss
I guess my question would be why are you weighing babies on day 3? Unless your babies are not peeing, pooping, are lethargic, irritable, and not feeding, WHY? Our routine to weigh babies in Seattle was at birth and then on day 7. Now of course a baby with the symptoms mentioned above would be weighed, feeding would be assessed and if necessary baby would see a paed and/or lactation consultant. Theoretically, babies born to diabetic mums (both pre-gestational and gestational) can be hypervolemic at birth, appear puffy and bloated and then pee out the excess fluid resulting in an exagerrated weight loss. This can be exaccerbated by hypoglycemia following birth (after being cut off from mum's hyperglycemia and the resulting over production of insulin) resulting in a lethargic, irritable babie who wont feed. So, I don't know do you have a lot of diabetic mums? . - Original Message - From: Irene Munro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 6:41 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] Day 3 weight loss I am finding an alarming amount of babies losing more than 10% of their birth weight on day 3. Is anyone else out there experiencing this and are there any studies on this subject. This is particularly babies of caucasian mothers. Can anyone shed light on this for me? Irene Munro Alice Springs __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Day 3 weight loss
Irene, I realise this is a totally isolated incident, but just for comparison... Baby #1 - born May 99 at St. Vincents Private in Melb.was born at 3830g, got down to 3350. His delivery was instrumental (due to PE diagnosed in labour) and I lost a litre of blood from episiotomy which tore - according to OB (there was no PPH)- and was not transfused due to good pathology results. Midwives wanted to supplement with formula - I wouldn't allow it and he after day 3 he began gaining at 400g+ per week. Baby #2 - born March 02 at Mercy Hospital Melb. was born at 3950g and weighed on day 2 (at home) at 4000g. Birth was induced by ARM due to fear of onset of PE and labour stimulated with synto because they were busy! But delivery was normal - no analgesics, no instruments. I put the loss of 10% of #1 baby down to blood loss and traumatic delivery. Maybe I'm kidding myself?? I guess also with #2 breasts were primed and ready to go - "knew" what to do, so to speak? Jo - Original Message - From: Rhonda To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Day 3 weight loss Is this in a hospital? Check the mothers diets! What is on the menu for them? I am sure that most hospital diets are not "breastfeeding friendly". Just my thoughts Rhonda. ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, September 09, 2002 11:49:02 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ozmidwifery] Day 3 weight loss I am finding an alarming amount of babies losing morethan 10% of their birth weight on day 3. Is anyoneelse out there experiencing this and are there anystudies on this subject. This is particularly babiesof caucasian mothers. Can anyone shed light on thisfor me?Irene MunroAlice Springs__Do You Yahoo!?Everything you'll ever need on one web pagefrom News and Sport to Email and Music Chartshttp://uk.my.yahoo.com--This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.. IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
Re: [ozmidwifery] Day 3 weight loss
Thanks for your reply Marilyn. It is 'routine' here to weigh on day 3 whether mum is diabetic or not. Personally, I think it just stresses the mums out and they begin to get anxious and then the 'rot' sets in. I was interested to hear that you only weigh on day 7, depending on the progress as you stated. I reckon that is a much more sensible regime, as breastfeeding does not always go as the textbook says. Irene __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Day 3 weight loss
Hi Jo, Thanks for your reply. Well done you! I reckon that early discharge is the answer, so that the doctors can't get their hands on the babies! Irene __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
