Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear Lieve I was only this morning at a beautiful birth of a stillborn baby girl - perfect in every way, looking so much like her mother! How things happen at this time are crucial for the parents - they have SO MUCH to do - in their hearts, their souls, their lives, their families. a word, an action can have such an influence on this for them. I am a midwife and this is part of life - and death - I am close to you at this time, as are the parents I was with this morning. I do not have the words at this time, but I feel so much for this family - so far away in distance, but so close in thought and heart and life! Love to you and them - Lynne - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:48 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends, Thank you all for the nice replys and warmfull thoughts for me and the family. I will tell you now what followed. Monday morning Lars was still very alive and alert. He drank several times during the night, pied, made stools, had the hickup, was sneezing, in one word, he did all a healthy child does. The mother hardly dared to close her eyes to sleep, afraid of missing some moments. The baby never left the arms of his parents. So in the morning we had a talk. We all had questions about how it will continue, how much time do we have, how will he die... So the parents decided to go to the university hospital to have an ultrasound of the heart. They made clear to the docter that they just wanted an ultrasound and then return home to decide what options were for them. The ultrasound confirmed the previous diagnosis: no left part of the heart, severe of the aorta and when the ductus of Botalli closes, the baby will go in acidosis, coma and die. They predicted 24 to 48 hours to live. The familie came home again. They made pictures and video of the baby. Lars never left their arms. They called some friends and told them about the birth and had visitors. But also we did a lot of talking, laughing and crying. 24 hours passed, 48 hours passed. Lars is now more then 72 hours and still a perfect child. He had his first bath today together with his mother and enjoyed it a lot. He is feeding well, has already breastfeeding stools and is very alert. He beated all the prognoses about lifetime. So we don't know anything about how long. Emotions are strange, we know there is no hope for long time, but we don't know how long. The parents enjoy the baby, but also fear the moment they have to let him go. We are prepared, but it's so absurd when you see Lars, he is so alive. The parents hoped that he would live long enough to see his eyes open, the mother hoped for some moments on the breast. Now they got already so much. They feel privileged and very happy, but grieve is so close. Laughter and tears go hand in hand. What will the futur bring??? Warm greetings Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Hugs to you too Lynne, you ladies are real angels, Pinky - Original Message - From: Lynne Staff [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear Lieve I was only this morning at a beautiful birth of a stillborn baby girl - perfect in every way, looking so much like her mother! How things happen at this time are crucial for the parents - they have SO MUCH to do - in their hearts, their souls, their lives, their families. a word, an action can have such an influence on this for them. I am a midwife and this is part of life - and death - I am close to you at this time, as are the parents I was with this morning. I do not have the words at this time, but I feel so much for this family - so far away in distance, but so close in thought and heart and life! Love to you and them - Lynne - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:48 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends, Thank you all for the nice replys and warmfull thoughts for me and the family. I will tell you now what followed. Monday morning Lars was still very alive and alert. He drank several times during the night, pied, made stools, had the hickup, was sneezing, in one word, he did all a healthy child does. The mother hardly dared to close her eyes to sleep, afraid of missing some moments. The baby never left the arms of his parents. So in the morning we had a talk. We all had questions about how it will continue, how much time do we have, how will he die... So the parents decided to go to the university hospital to have an ultrasound of the heart. They made clear to the docter that they just wanted an ultrasound and then return home to decide what options were for them. The ultrasound confirmed the previous diagnosis: no left part of the heart, severe of the aorta and when the ductus of Botalli closes, the baby will go in acidosis, coma and die. They predicted 24 to 48 hours to live. The familie came home again. They made pictures and video of the baby. Lars never left their arms. They called some friends and told them about the birth and had visitors. But also we did a lot of talking, laughing and crying. 24 hours passed, 48 hours passed. Lars is now more then 72 hours and still a perfect child. He had his first bath today together with his mother and enjoyed it a lot. He is feeding well, has already breastfeeding stools and is very alert. He beated all the prognoses about lifetime. So we don't know anything about how long. Emotions are strange, we know there is no hope for long time, but we don't know how long. The parents enjoy the baby, but also fear the moment they have to let him go. We are prepared, but it's so absurd when you see Lars, he is so alive. The parents hoped that he would live long enough to see his eyes open, the mother hoped for some moments on the breast. Now they got already so much. They feel privileged and very happy, but grieve is so close. Laughter and tears go hand in hand. What will the futur bring??? Warm greetings Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear Leive, I can add very little to the thoughts and feelings already being expressed. But I had to write to let you know that my tears and prayers are for you all as you share this most precious time. Thank you for blessing us with this shared experience. Love Sandy. - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:48 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends, Thank you all for the nice replys and warmfull thoughts for me and the family. I will tell you now what followed. Monday morning Lars was still very alive and alert. He drank several times during the night, pied, made stools, had the hickup, was sneezing, in one word, he did all a healthy child does. The mother hardly dared to close her eyes to sleep, afraid of missing some moments. The baby never left the arms of his parents. So in the morning we had a talk. We all had questions about how it will continue, how much time do we have, how will he die... So the parents decided to go to the university hospital to have an ultrasound of the heart. They made clear to the docter that they just wanted an ultrasound and then return home to decide what options were for them. The ultrasound confirmed the previous diagnosis: no left part of the heart, severe of the aorta and when the ductus of Botalli closes, the baby will go in acidosis, coma and die. They predicted 24 to 48 hours to live. The familie came home again. They made pictures and video of the baby. Lars never left their arms. They called some friends and told them about the birth and had visitors. But also we did a lot of talking, laughing and crying. 24 hours passed, 48 hours passed. Lars is now more then 72 hours and still a perfect child. He had his first bath today together with his mother and enjoyed it a lot. He is feeding well, has already breastfeeding stools and is very alert. He beated all the prognoses about lifetime. So we don't know anything about how long. Emotions are strange, we know there is no hope for long time, but we don't know how long. The parents enjoy the baby, but also fear the moment they have to let him go. We are prepared, but it's so absurd when you see Lars, he is so alive. The parents hoped that he would live long enough to see his eyes open, the mother hoped for some moments on the breast. Now they got already so much. They feel privileged and very happy, but grieve is so close. Laughter and tears go hand in hand. What will the futur bring??? Warm greetings Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear Lieve, I wasnt online when your first discusions on this family were made known thankyou for further explaining the situation. My heart goes out to this family and yourself, I pray for you all. Janet -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lieve Huybrechts Sent: Monday, 17 March 2003 9:07 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends, For those that weren't at the list at my first posting: When Nele was 22 weeks pregnant, ultrasound showed a severe heartdefect. The baby wouldn't have any chance to live and was inoperable. They already choose for a homebirth. Against a lot of advice to quit the pregnancy at that time, they choose to give the baby the life he could have. They stayed with their choice for homebirth. Nele gave birth today to a beautifull son Lars. She had a very fast labor and birth. There were a lot of emotions involved. We didn't know before how the baby would react and how much time we would have with him. I have beautifull videomoments. The first half hour the mother stayed in bad, where Lars was born, we didn't dare to transfer her to the coach. Lars started to suckle his tumb and apgar stayed 9. So we moved to the coach and there he started breastfeeding. After a while they called the family and asked to come and see the baby. You know most of the people advised to quit the pregnancy as soon as they knew the baby couldn't live long. It was beautifull to see how they reacted on the baby and started to love him. Now he lives already for 11 hours. He slept a while and drank again. His colour stays a little blueish, but not so bad. We don't know how long he stays like that. The parents are happy and enjoying the baby, although they are very realistic. His older brother is at home to and talking to and cuddling the baby. Tomorrow we will have to think again. What do we have to do when he stays in the same good condition? Do we have to go to the hospital? What will happen there? What is the best thing to do? It was a strange day, I enjoyed the beautifull birth and the happiness of the parents between our tears of knowing we will have to let him go again. It will be a strange night. I am home now, they live in my street, two minutes walking. It will be a strange day tomorrow, I don't know what will come. Thank you all for being there and listen Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear Lieve: I am wordless, but my heart goes out to you and Lars and his family. marilyn - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 2:48 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends, Thank you all for the nice replys and warmfull thoughts for me and the family. I will tell you now what followed. Monday morning Lars was still very alive and alert. He drank several times during the night, pied, made stools, had the hickup, was sneezing, in one word, he did all a healthy child does. The mother hardly dared to close her eyes to sleep, afraid of missing some moments. The baby never left the arms of his parents. So in the morning we had a talk. We all had questions about how it will continue, how much time do we have, how will he die... So the parents decided to go to the university hospital to have an ultrasound of the heart. They made clear to the docter that they just wanted an ultrasound and then return home to decide what options were for them. The ultrasound confirmed the previous diagnosis: no left part of the heart, severe of the aorta and when the ductus of Botalli closes, the baby will go in acidosis, coma and die. They predicted 24 to 48 hours to live. The familie came home again. They made pictures and video of the baby. Lars never left their arms. They called some friends and told them about the birth and had visitors. But also we did a lot of talking, laughing and crying. 24 hours passed, 48 hours passed. Lars is now more then 72 hours and still a perfect child. He had his first bath today together with his mother and enjoyed it a lot. He is feeding well, has already breastfeeding stools and is very alert. He beated all the prognoses about lifetime. So we don't know anything about how long. Emotions are strange, we know there is no hope for long time, but we don't know how long. The parents enjoy the baby, but also fear the moment they have to let him go. We are prepared, but it's so absurd when you see Lars, he is so alive. The parents hoped that he would live long enough to see his eyes open, the mother hoped for some moments on the breast. Now they got already so much. They feel privileged and very happy, but grieve is so close. Laughter and tears go hand in hand. What will the futur bring??? Warm greetings Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear Lieve It seems to me that you are being a wonderful support to the parents. They are very fortunate to have such a wonderfully caring and sensitive midwife. The uncertainty mixed with heartache must be very difficult for you all and I imagine entertaining fantasies that the diagnosis could somehow be wrong, but the ultrasound has re-confirmed the diagnosis for you. From what you have described there is no hope for this baby to live a long and happy future - staying in the moment with the parents and gently supporting them as they gradually say goodbye to their baby is the only answer I can come up with for you for your question of what will become in the future. I hope this helps you Lieve - does it? A warm hug to you as you walk this sad pathway with the parents - Julie Clarke Childbirth and Parenting Educator Transition into Parenthood 9 Withybrook Pl Sylvania NSW 2224 T. (02) 9544 6441 F (02) 9544 9257 M. 0401 265 530 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marilyn Kleidon Sent: Friday, 21 March 2003 3:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear Lieve: I am wordless, but my heart goes out to you and Lars and his family. marilyn - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 2:48 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends, Thank you all for the nice replys and warmfull thoughts for me and the family. I will tell you now what followed. Monday morning Lars was still very alive and alert. He drank several times during the night, pied, made stools, had the hickup, was sneezing, in one word, he did all a healthy child does. The mother hardly dared to close her eyes to sleep, afraid of missing some moments. The baby never left the arms of his parents. So in the morning we had a talk. We all had questions about how it will continue, how much time do we have, how will he die... So the parents decided to go to the university hospital to have an ultrasound of the heart. They made clear to the docter that they just wanted an ultrasound and then return home to decide what options were for them. The ultrasound confirmed the previous diagnosis: no left part of the heart, severe of the aorta and when the ductus of Botalli closes, the baby will go in acidosis, coma and die. They predicted 24 to 48 hours to live. The familie came home again. They made pictures and video of the baby. Lars never left their arms. They called some friends and told them about the birth and had visitors. But also we did a lot of talking, laughing and crying. 24 hours passed, 48 hours passed. Lars is now more then 72 hours and still a perfect child. He had his first bath today together with his mother and enjoyed it a lot. He is feeding well, has already breastfeeding stools and is very alert. He beated all the prognoses about lifetime. So we don't know anything about how long. Emotions are strange, we know there is no hope for long time, but we don't know how long. The parents enjoy the baby, but also fear the moment they have to let him go. We are prepared, but it's so absurd when you see Lars, he is so alive. The parents hoped that he would live long enough to see his eyes open, the mother hoped for some moments on the breast. Now they got already so much. They feel privileged and very happy, but grieve is so close. Laughter and tears go hand in hand. What will the futur bring??? Warm greetings Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Hi Lieve, You are an angel to this family. I have a wee story that may be of comfort - it was read at my brothers second child's funeral -their first baby died suddenly (misdiagnosed intersuception) at 6 months and their second child (born the same hour as my daughter) was tragically killed at twenty. My thoughts and prayers are with you and the family of wee Lars. The Child God Lent I'll lend you for a little time a child of mine, God said, For you to love the while he lives, and mourn for when he's dead. It may be six or seven years, or twentytwo or three, but will you til I call him back, take care of him for me? He'll bring his charms to gladden you and should his stay be brief, you'll have his lovely memories as solace for your grief. I cannot promise he will stay, since all from earth return, But there are lessons taught down there I wish this child to learn. And, from the throngs that crowd lifes lanes I have selected you, I've looked the wide world over in my search for teachers true, Nor, will you give him all your love, nor think the labour vain, Nor hate me when I come to call to take him back again? I fancied that I heard them say, Dear Lord, Thy will be done; For all the joy Thy child shall bring, the risk of grief we'll run, We'll shelter him with tenderness; we'll love him while we may, And, for the happiness we've known, forever grateful stay, But should the angels call for him much sooner than we've planned, We'll brave the bitter grief that comes and try to understand. Love and hugs to you all, Pinky - Original Message - From: Julie Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:13 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear Lieve It seems to me that you are being a wonderful support to the parents. They are very fortunate to have such a wonderfully caring and sensitive midwife. The uncertainty mixed with heartache must be very difficult for you all and I imagine entertaining fantasies that the diagnosis could somehow be wrong, but the ultrasound has re-confirmed the diagnosis for you. From what you have described there is no hope for this baby to live a long and happy future - staying in the moment with the parents and gently supporting them as they gradually say goodbye to their baby is the only answer I can come up with for you for your question of what will become in the future. I hope this helps you Lieve - does it? A warm hug to you as you walk this sad pathway with the parents - Julie Clarke Childbirth and Parenting Educator Transition into Parenthood 9 Withybrook Pl Sylvania NSW 2224 T. (02) 9544 6441 F (02) 9544 9257 M. 0401 265 530 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marilyn Kleidon Sent: Friday, 21 March 2003 3:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear Lieve: I am wordless, but my heart goes out to you and Lars and his family. marilyn - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 2:48 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends, Thank you all for the nice replys and warmfull thoughts for me and the family. I will tell you now what followed. Monday morning Lars was still very alive and alert. He drank several times during the night, pied, made stools, had the hickup, was sneezing, in one word, he did all a healthy child does. The mother hardly dared to close her eyes to sleep, afraid of missing some moments. The baby never left the arms of his parents. So in the morning we had a talk. We all had questions about how it will continue, how much time do we have, how will he die... So the parents decided to go to the university hospital to have an ultrasound of the heart. They made clear to the docter that they just wanted an ultrasound and then return home to decide what options were for them. The ultrasound confirmed the previous diagnosis: no left part of the heart, severe of the aorta and when the ductus of Botalli closes, the baby will go in acidosis, coma and die. They predicted 24 to 48 hours to live. The familie came home again. They made pictures and video of the baby. Lars never left their arms. They called some friends and told them about the birth and had visitors. But also we did a lot of talking, laughing and crying. 24 hours passed, 48 hours passed. Lars is now more then 72 hours and still a perfect child. He had his first bath today together with his mother and enjoyed it a lot. He is feeding well, has already breastfeeding stools and is very alert. He beated all the prognoses about lifetime. So we don't know anything about how long. Emotions are strange, we know there is no hope for long time, but we don't know how long
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
sorry that should be now will you give him all your love Pinky - Original Message - From: Pinky McKay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 12:23 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Hi Lieve, You are an angel to this family. I have a wee story that may be of comfort - it was read at my brothers second child's funeral -their first baby died suddenly (misdiagnosed intersuception) at 6 months and their second child (born the same hour as my daughter) was tragically killed at twenty. My thoughts and prayers are with you and the family of wee Lars. The Child God Lent I'll lend you for a little time a child of mine, God said, For you to love the while he lives, and mourn for when he's dead. It may be six or seven years, or twentytwo or three, but will you til I call him back, take care of him for me? He'll bring his charms to gladden you and should his stay be brief, you'll have his lovely memories as solace for your grief. I cannot promise he will stay, since all from earth return, But there are lessons taught down there I wish this child to learn. And, from the throngs that crowd lifes lanes I have selected you, I've looked the wide world over in my search for teachers true, Nor, will you give him all your love, nor think the labour vain, Nor hate me when I come to call to take him back again? I fancied that I heard them say, Dear Lord, Thy will be done; For all the joy Thy child shall bring, the risk of grief we'll run, We'll shelter him with tenderness; we'll love him while we may, And, for the happiness we've known, forever grateful stay, But should the angels call for him much sooner than we've planned, We'll brave the bitter grief that comes and try to understand. Love and hugs to you all, Pinky - Original Message - From: Julie Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:13 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear Lieve It seems to me that you are being a wonderful support to the parents. They are very fortunate to have such a wonderfully caring and sensitive midwife. The uncertainty mixed with heartache must be very difficult for you all and I imagine entertaining fantasies that the diagnosis could somehow be wrong, but the ultrasound has re-confirmed the diagnosis for you. From what you have described there is no hope for this baby to live a long and happy future - staying in the moment with the parents and gently supporting them as they gradually say goodbye to their baby is the only answer I can come up with for you for your question of what will become in the future. I hope this helps you Lieve - does it? A warm hug to you as you walk this sad pathway with the parents - Julie Clarke Childbirth and Parenting Educator Transition into Parenthood 9 Withybrook Pl Sylvania NSW 2224 T. (02) 9544 6441 F (02) 9544 9257 M. 0401 265 530 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marilyn Kleidon Sent: Friday, 21 March 2003 3:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear Lieve: I am wordless, but my heart goes out to you and Lars and his family. marilyn - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 2:48 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends, Thank you all for the nice replys and warmfull thoughts for me and the family. I will tell you now what followed. Monday morning Lars was still very alive and alert. He drank several times during the night, pied, made stools, had the hickup, was sneezing, in one word, he did all a healthy child does. The mother hardly dared to close her eyes to sleep, afraid of missing some moments. The baby never left the arms of his parents. So in the morning we had a talk. We all had questions about how it will continue, how much time do we have, how will he die... So the parents decided to go to the university hospital to have an ultrasound of the heart. They made clear to the docter that they just wanted an ultrasound and then return home to decide what options were for them. The ultrasound confirmed the previous diagnosis: no left part of the heart, severe of the aorta and when the ductus of Botalli closes, the baby will go in acidosis, coma and die. They predicted 24 to 48 hours to live. The familie came home again. They made pictures and video of the baby. Lars never left their arms. They called some friends and told them about the birth and had visitors. But also we did a lot of talking, laughing and crying. 24 hours passed, 48 hours passed. Lars is now more then 72 hours and still
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
In a message dated 3/20/03 6:51:37 AM W. Australia Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now they got already so much. They feel privileged and very happy, but grieve is so close. Laughter and tears go hand in hand. What will the futur bring??? Lieve I had tears in my eyes as I finished your post. When our son died at birth we had very little time with him, but every moment was precious. Our memories (and momentoes) are always with us, and Michael is very much part of our family. My heart goes out to you, Lars, and his family. The immediate future will not be easy, but with the love and support of those around you, you will all be able to survive the dark moments, and emerge the stronger for it. It may take time, but take all the time you need. We went on to have another son, and two years ago, I went to a Robbie Williams concert on the 8th anniversary of Michael's birth and death. I had such a good time - dancing, singing and cheering. If anyone had told me that such a time would come 8 years before, I would not have believed them. God Bless Debbie Slater Perth, WA
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear Lieve Thank you for sharing Lars' story with us! Oh that we all could be so supportive of women and their choices particularly the uncomfortable ones! Denise - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 2:48 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends, Thank you all for the nice replys and warmfull thoughts for me and the family. I will tell you now what followed. Monday morning Lars was still very alive and alert. He drank several times during the night, pied, made stools, had the hickup, was sneezing, in one word, he did all a healthy child does. The mother hardly dared to close her eyes to sleep, afraid of missing some moments. The baby never left the arms of his parents. So in the morning we had a talk. We all had questions about how it will continue, how much time do we have, how will he die... So the parents decided to go to the university hospital to have an ultrasound of the heart. They made clear to the docter that they just wanted an ultrasound and then return home to decide what options were for them. The ultrasound confirmed the previous diagnosis: no left part of the heart, severe of the aorta and when the ductus of Botalli closes, the baby will go in acidosis, coma and die. They predicted 24 to 48 hours to live. The familie came home again. They made pictures and video of the baby. Lars never left their arms. They called some friends and told them about the birth and had visitors. But also we did a lot of talking, laughing and crying. 24 hours passed, 48 hours passed. Lars is now more then 72 hours and still a perfect child. He had his first bath today together with his mother and enjoyed it a lot. He is feeding well, has already breastfeeding stools and is very alert. He beated all the prognoses about lifetime. So we don't know anything about how long. Emotions are strange, we know there is no hope for long time, but we don't know how long. The parents enjoy the baby, but also fear the moment they have to let him go. We are prepared, but it's so absurd when you see Lars, he is so alive. The parents hoped that he would live long enough to see his eyes open, the mother hoped for some moments on the breast. Now they got already so much. They feel privileged and very happy, but grieve is so close. Laughter and tears go hand in hand. What will the futur bring??? Warm greetings Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear Pinky Your poem and Lieve's email reminds me that a culture which advocates for the aborting of all questionable fetus' is risking/rejecting the loss of such humane lessons as in this poem and Lars's story. So saying I also reject making abortion illegal, I support women's informed choice and what-ever that is, it is not easy when looking at the possibility of birthing an abnormal baby which here in Australia we are now routinely intent on testing for in so many women also at what cost? The fear and certainty myth is endemic or epidemic? Denise - Original Message - From: Pinky McKay [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Hi Lieve, You are an angel to ths family. I have a wee story that may be of comfort - it was read at my brothers second child's funeral -their first baby died suddenly (misdiagnosed intersuception) at 6 months and their second child (born the same hour as my daughter) was tragically killed at twenty. My thoughts and prayers are with you and the family of wee Lars. The Child God Lent I'll lend you for a little time a child of mine, God said, For you to love the while he lives, and mourn for when he's dead. It may be six or seven years, or twentytwo or three, but will you til I call him back, take care of him for me? He'll bring his charms to gladden you and should his stay be brief, you'll have his lovely memories as solace for your grief. I cannot promise he will stay, since all from earth return, But there are lessons taught down there I wish this child to learn. And, from the throngs that crowd lifes lanes I have selected you, I've looked the wide world over in my search for teachers true, Nor, will you give him all your love, nor think the labour vain, Nor hate me when I come to call to take him back again? I fancied that I heard them say, Dear Lord, Thy will be done; For all the joy Thy child shall bring, the risk of grief we'll run, We'll shelter him with tenderness; we'll love him while we may, And, for the happiness we've known, forever grateful stay, But should the angels call for him much sooner than we've planned, We'll brave the bitter grief that comes and try to understand. Love and hugs to you all, Pinky - Original Message - From: Julie Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 11:13 AM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear Lieve It seems to me that you are being a wonderful support to the parents. They are very fortunate to have such a wonderfully caring and sensitive midwife. The uncertainty mixed with heartache must be very difficult for you all and I imagine entertaining fantasies that the diagnosis could somehow be wrong, but the ultrasound has re-confirmed the diagnosis for you. From what you have described there is no hope for this baby to live a long and happy future - staying in the moment with the parents and gently supporting them as they gradually say goodbye to their baby is the only answer I can come up with for you for your question of what will become in the future. I hope this helps you Lieve - does it? A warm hug to you as you walk this sad pathway with the parents - Julie Clarke Childbirth and Parenting Educator Transition into Parenthood 9 Withybrook Pl Sylvania NSW 2224 T. (02) 9544 6441 F (02) 9544 9257 M. 0401 265 530 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marilyn Kleidon Sent: Friday, 21 March 2003 3:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear Lieve: I am wordless, but my heart goes out to you and Lars and his family. marilyn - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 2:48 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends, Thank you all for the nice replys and warmfull thoughts for me and the family. I will tell you now what followed. Monday morning Lars was still very alive and alert. He drank several times during the night, pied, made stools, had the hickup, was sneezing, in one word, he did all a healthy child does. The mother hardly dared to close her eyes to sleep, afraid of missing some moments. The baby never left the arms of his parents. So in the morning we had a talk. We all had questions about how it will continue, how much time do we have, how will he die... So the parents decided to go to the university hospital to have an ultrasound of the heart. They made clear to the docter that they just wanted an ultrasound and then return home to decide what options were for them. The ultrasound confirmed the previous diagnosis: no left
RE: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Peace to you all on this journey. Sally Westbury Homebirth Midwife Birth is as safe as life gets. --Harriett Hartigan -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Love and strength to you lieve, There are many of us thinking of Lars,his family and you at the moment and I think that there is good power in that. We send our blessings from afar and wish we could give you a hug, Julie. - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:36 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends, For those that weren't at the list at my first posting: When Nele was 22 weeks pregnant, ultrasound showed a severe heartdefect. The baby wouldn't have any chance to live and was inoperable. They already choose for a homebirth. Against a lot of advice to quit the pregnancy at that time, they choose to give the baby the life he could have. They stayed with their choice for homebirth. Nele gave birth today to a beautifull son Lars. She had a very fast labor and birth. There were a lot of emotions involved. We didn't know before how the baby would react and how much time we would have with him. I have beautifull videomoments. The first half hour the mother stayed in bad, where Lars was born, we didn't dare to transfer her to the coach. Lars started to suckle his tumb and apgar stayed 9. So we moved to the coach and there he started breastfeeding. After a while they called the family and asked to come and see the baby. You know most of the people advised to quit the pregnancy as soon as they knew the baby couldn't live long. It was beautifull to see how they reacted on the baby and started to love him. Now he lives already for 11 hours. He slept a while and drank again. His colour stays a little blueish, but not so bad. We don't know how long he stays like that. The parents are happy and enjoying the baby, although they are very realistic. His older brother is at home to and talking to and cuddling the baby. Tomorrow we will have to think again. What do we have to do when he stays in the same good condition? Do we have to go to the hospital? What will happen there? What is the best thing to do? It was a strange day, I enjoyed the beautifull birth and the happiness of the parents between our tears of knowing we will have to let him go again. It will be a strange night. I am home now, they live in my street, two minutes walking. It will be a strange day tomorrow, I don't know what will come. Thank you all for being there and listen Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear Lieve I have been wondering since your first very moving post about this baby and the family. Thank you for sharing his birth with us all. I hope his remaining time goes peacefully and lovingly. Love to you all Margie At Sun, 16 Mar 2003 23:06:49 +0100, Lieve Huybrechts ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Dear friends, For those that weren't at the list at my first posting: When Nele was 22 weeks pregnant, ultrasound showed a severe heartdefect. The baby wouldn't have any chance to live and was inoperable. They already choose for a homebirth. Against a lot of advice to quit the pregnancy at that time, they choose to give the baby the life he could have. They stayed with their choice for homebirth. Nele gave birth today to a beautifull son Lars. She had a very fast labor and birth. There were a lot of emotions involved. We didn't know before how the baby would react and how much time we would have with him. I have beautifull videomoments. The first half hour the mother stayed in bad, where Lars was born, we didn't dare to transfer her to the coach. Lars started to suckle his tumb and apgar stayed 9. So we moved to the coach and there he started breastfeeding. After a while they called the family and asked to come and see the baby. You know most of the people advised to quit the pregnancy as soon as they knew the baby couldn't live long. It was beautifull to see how they reacted on the baby and started to love him. Now he lives already for 11 hours. He slept a while and drank again. His colour stays a little blueish, but not so bad. We don't know how long he stays like that. The parents are happy and enjoying the baby, although they are very realistic. His older brother is at home to and talking to and cuddling the baby. Tomorrow we will have to think again. What do we have to do when he stays in the same good condition? Do we have to go to the hospital? What will happen there? What is the best thing to do? It was a strange day, I enjoyed the beautifull birth and the happiness of the parents between our tears of knowing we will have to let him go again. It will be a strange night. I am home now, they live in my street, two minutes walking. It will be a strange day tomorrow, I don't know what will come. Thank you all for being there and listen Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. Looking for a free email account? Get one now at http://www.freemail.com.au/
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear Leive, What a truely heartwarming story of bravery and love. I do hope that littleLars has some time to get to know his parents and to love and be loved by them. Every moment is such a blessing. I have a friend who has a child who was sent home at 1 yr old to have her first birthday and die. They said if she did not die she would be a vegetable! (after being born at 27 weeks and a healthy baby - was sent to the childrens ward by accident and contracted a virus which almost killed her - after being ventilated for almostone yr with severe lung damage she had only 20% lung capacity left.) She is now 9 yrs old and has 36% lung capacity and is still on Oxygen but does have a few hours a day at school with no oxygen which is amazing. Every yr the Dr's tell her parents that she will not see out the winter.Yet she is still alive against all odds. She is small and weighs only 18kgs but goes to school and does Ballet! They have said that if and when she becomes a teenager she will be given a double lung, heart transplant but as they only do about 4 of these in Australia peryear the prognosis is poor. And her mother said to me that when she asks if she is going to die they tell her sheis but just because you are sick does not mean you will die as other people die from accidents and things - anyone can die at any time. They look at each moment as a blessing - which it is. All the best to you and your very brave family who have been blessed with such a speacial baby. Rhonda ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, 17 March 2003 08:25:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Love and strength to you lieve,There are many of us thinking of Lars,his family and you at the moment and Ithink that there is good power in that.We send our blessings from afar and wish we could give you a hug,Julie.- Original Message -From: "Lieve Huybrechts" lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:36 AMSubject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends, For those that weren't at the list at my first posting: When Nele was 22 weeks pregnant, ultrasound showed a severe heartdefect.The baby wouldn't have any chance to live and was inoperable. They already choose for a homebirth. Against a lot of advice to quit the pregnancy at that time, they choose to give the baby the life he could have. Theystayed with their choice for homebirth. Nele gave birth today to a beautifull son Lars. She had a very fast labor and birth. There were a lot of emotions involved. We didn't know beforehow the baby would react and how much time we would have with him. I have beautifull videomoments. The first half hour the mother stayed in bad,where Lars was born, we didn't dare to transfer her to the coach. Lars startedto suckle his tumb and apgar stayed 9. So we moved to the coach and there he started breastfeeding. After a while they called the family and asked to come and see the baby.You know most of the people advised to quit the pregnancy as soon as they knew the baby couldn't live long. It was beautifull to see how they reacted on the baby and started to love him. Now he lives already for 11 hours. He slept a while and drank again. His colour stays a little blueish, but not so bad. We don't know how long he stays like that. The parents are happy and enjoying the baby, althoughthey are very realistic. His older brother is at home to and talking to and cuddling the baby. Tomorrow we will have to think again. What do we have to do when he staysin the same good condition? Do we have to go to the hospital? What willhappen there? What is the best thing to do? It was a strange day, I enjoyed the beautifull birth and the happiness of the parents between our tears of knowing we will have to let him go again. It will be a strange night. I am home now, they live in my street, two minutes walking. It will be a strange day tomorrow, I don't know what will come. Thank you all for being there and listen Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.--This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or u
[ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear friends, For those that weren't at the list at my first posting: When Nele was 22 weeks pregnant, ultrasound showed a severe heartdefect. The baby wouldn't have any chance to live and was inoperable. They already choose for a homebirth. Against a lot of advice to quit the pregnancy at that time, they choose to give the baby the life he could have. They stayed with their choice for homebirth. Nele gave birth today to a beautifull son Lars. She had a very fast labor and birth. There were a lot of emotions involved. We didn't know before how the baby would react and how much time we would have with him. I have beautifull videomoments. The first half hour the mother stayed in bad, where Lars was born, we didn't dare to transfer her to the coach. Lars started to suckle his tumb and apgar stayed 9. So we moved to the coach and there he started breastfeeding. After a while they called the family and asked to come and see the baby. You know most of the people advised to quit the pregnancy as soon as they knew the baby couldn't live long. It was beautifull to see how they reacted on the baby and started to love him. Now he lives already for 11 hours. He slept a while and drank again. His colour stays a little blueish, but not so bad. We don't know how long he stays like that. The parents are happy and enjoying the baby, although they are very realistic. His older brother is at home to and talking to and cuddling the baby. Tomorrow we will have to think again. What do we have to do when he stays in the same good condition? Do we have to go to the hospital? What will happen there? What is the best thing to do? It was a strange day, I enjoyed the beautifull birth and the happiness of the parents between our tears of knowing we will have to let him go again. It will be a strange night. I am home now, they live in my street, two minutes walking. It will be a strange day tomorrow, I don't know what will come. Thank you all for being there and listen Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear Lieve, I have no advice for you, only congratulations on such a loving act. The only baby I had like that (unknown until 14 days old) went to hospital at 2weeks of age, stayed there a few days then home to family until he died 2 weeks later, The time at home after he was born (lovely waterbirth ) was so precious. There was nothing to be done, just love him until he chose to go. All that investigations while in hospital did him no good but satisfied the family that there really was nothing else to be done. Love from Mary -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
[ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Hoi Julie and all of you, I went to the womans home yesterday evening. All is prepared for the birth. They have a swimmingpool in the livingroom for labor and maybe birth. They decided to keep the baby in the house till the cremation and arranged already a lot of the ceremony. They really want to have it the way they feel is good. They are very calm and ready to welcome the baby. Tomorrow is the expected date, but no signs so far. I admire the way they are handling it. She comes every week to the mothergroup. There are several pregnant mums and they are all supportive for her but also for us. A lot of people are aware of what is going to happen. I will keep you all informed and I am glad to have you for support. I am very trustfull and calm. Warm greetings Lieve When birth and death come together; How is the women and her family getting on? I have been looking at ethics allot in the past week and my thoughts turn to them often. Anyway,I hope things are going as well as they possibly can . Love Julie'', -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
FW: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Hi Lieve, I was just thinking about you and your wonderful mother to be. Wondering how you all were going. In peace and joy Sally Westbury -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Hi Sally, We are doing fine. I had 5 wonderfull births this month and two to go. The mother and her husband are doing a wonderfull job. She started working again. She is a music teacher and gives gitar lessons. She explained the situation to all her students (range from 12y to adults) herself and had some wonderfull reactions. She comes every week to the birthcentre to the postnatal talkgroup. Some of the other mothers are pregnant as well and due for the same time. At first I was a littlebit afraid for the reactions and feelings of the other mothers, but they learned me some lessons about the strength and caring force of women :-) The last scan of the baby proved that the left side of the heart almost disapeared, that confirmed that the baby will not live long after birth. She enjoys the feeling of the baby, he is very active. We listen to the heartbeat and she can perfect say in what position he is lying. Her oldest child is 1 1/2y old and had some anxiety in the night and woke up often. We helped him with bachflowers and it worked well. The one thing that concerns me is that I don't know how her gyn will behave at the end. The parents are strong enough to make their own choices, but he can spoil the peace they have now. We don't have a good relation. He refuses to work with independent midwives and even refuses to talk to us. At this moment he was suprisingly supportive for homebirth and maybe I am too suspicious, but I don't know if he is honest or has some tricks in his hands. We will see, maybe this is a chance to get some entrance for a kind of working together. Let's hope. I wish you all warm Christmas days with a lot of friendship. I want to thank you all for the support and knowledge that you shared with me. I will keep in touch through the new year and I wish you all to get connected with other strong women. Happy hollydays Lieve On 22-12-2002 09:35, Sally Westbury [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Lieve, I was just thinking about you and your wonderful mother to be. Wondering how you all were going. In peace and joy Sally Westbury -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Lieve Lieve, Wat is het mooi. You're doing wonderful things for your people. I wish you sterkte and liefde. Aviva --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.427 / Virus Database: 240 - Release Date: 6/12/02
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Hi Lieve, Maybe when this baby's being borne you can tell us and we can all pray or think special thoughts in our own way to help this child on its journey. Ihope that this may be of some support. I'm thinking of you, wishing you strength and wisdom. Love Julie'', . - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 7:13 PMSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come togetherHoi Mary and others of the list,That's a thing that is of our concern. We don't know how long the baby hasto live, nobody can forsay that and the parents are also worried on how thebaby is going to die.I am glad that you gave this information.Maybe in my messages it sounds if I have worked it all trough, but I amdreaming of it at night, and sometimes a lot of doubts are my share too.I try to listen to them and give my support. We also find a lot offriendship and support in our birthcentre, especially in the postnataltalkgroup. It's amazing how the other mothers are acting towards the mother.It gives a very good feeling.On the operation it's not only the matter of survival but also the questionon quality of life. They forsay that if the baby would survive surgery, hehas to stay for at least 2 years in the hospital and will have a lot ofoperations during his life.I hope we can give the baby love and warmth and I hope that the parents willafterwards have a warm feeling about it, without doubts of having actedwell.Warm greetingsLieve---Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 26/11/02Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Hoi Mary and others of the list, That's a thing that is of our concern. We don't know how long the baby has to live, nobody can forsay that and the parents are also worried on how the baby is going to die. I am glad that you gave this information. Maybe in my messages it sounds if I have worked it all trough, but I am dreaming of it at night, and sometimes a lot of doubts are my share too. I try to listen to them and give my support. We also find a lot of friendship and support in our birthcentre, especially in the postnatal talkgroup. It's amazing how the other mothers are acting towards the mother. It gives a very good feeling. On the operation it's not only the matter of survival but also the question on quality of life. They forsay that if the baby would survive surgery, he has to stay for at least 2 years in the hospital and will have a lot of operations during his life. I hope we can give the baby love and warmth and I hope that the parents will afterwards have a warm feeling about it, without doubts of having acted well. Warm greetings Lieve On 02-12-2002 08:24, Mary Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Lieve, 8 yrs ago I had a woman who had an U/S at 20 wks for her 4th baby (never had one before) and there were no abnomalities picked up on examination. Subsequently, she had a lovely homebirth waterbirth and had a little boy with good weight and APGARS. He wasn't as vigorous as the other children but fed and slept well. At about 2 wks of age he was going a bit blue in the lips after a feed and when X-Rayed was found to have an undeveloped left side of the heart. At that stage the only place to get treatment was thousands of kilometres away in Melbourne and only a 50/50 chance.of survival. The parents bravely opted not to put the baby through the operation and he died at home when he was 4 weeks old. The parents were so glad he was born at home and spent most of his short life with his family, in an atmosphere of love. MM -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear Lieve, The other thought that I have had on this is about when my grandfather died. He had cancer and we nursed him at home(I was a 15 year old at the time) until the very last when my grandmother suddenly wanted to go to hospital because she didn't want him to die in their bed, didn't want to lay in the bed that they shared and remember him dieing there but rather to remember their life together there. This was unexpected for the family and although this was a huge change of plans it was the in retrospect the right thing fro my grandmother and I am glad that my grandmother was respected in her wishes. The moral of the story, not to get too fixed on any one pathway. Being open, listening carefully with head and heart. In peace and joy Sally -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Lieve Lieve, Wij staan allemaal te samen met jullie. Veel sterkte aan jullie. Veel liefs, Aviva - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Hoi Mary and others of the list,That's a thing that is of our concern. We don't know how long the baby hasto live, nobody can forsay that and the parents are also worried on how thebaby is going to die.I am glad that you gave this information.Maybe in my messages it sounds if I have worked it all trough, but I amdreaming of it at night, and sometimes a lot of doubts are my share too.I try to listen to them and give my support. We also find a lot offriendship and support in our birthcentre, especially in the postnataltalkgroup. It's amazing how the other mothers are acting towards the mother.It gives a very good feeling.On the operation it's not only the matter of survival but also the questionon quality of life. They forsay that if the baby would survive surgery, hehas to stay for at least 2 years in the hospital and will have a lot ofoperations during his life.I hope we can give the baby love and warmth and I hope that the parents willafterwards have a warm feeling about it, without doubts of having actedwell.Warm greetingsLieve --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 26/11/02
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dankjewel Aviva Veel groetjes ginder Lieve On 02-12-2002 14:37, Aviva Sheb'a [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lieve Lieve, Wij staan allemaal te samen met jullie. Veel sterkte aan jullie. Veel liefs, Aviva - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Hoi Mary and others of the list, That's a thing that is of our concern. We don't know how long the baby has to live, nobody can forsay that and the parents are also worried on how the baby is going to die. I am glad that you gave this information. Maybe in my messages it sounds if I have worked it all trough, but I am dreaming of it at night, and sometimes a lot of doubts are my share too. I try to listen to them and give my support. We also find a lot of friendship and support in our birthcentre, especially in the postnatal talkgroup. It's amazing how the other mothers are acting towards the mother. It gives a very good feeling. On the operation it's not only the matter of survival but also the question on quality of life. They forsay that if the baby would survive surgery, he has to stay for at least 2 years in the hospital and will have a lot of operations during his life. I hope we can give the baby love and warmth and I hope that the parents will afterwards have a warm feeling about it, without doubts of having acted well. Warm greetings Lieve --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 26/11/02
RE: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
This makes me think back to a recent posting of the family whose first baby was born still at home and the baby had a lotus birth. Where the placenta was left attached to baby, and in this case forever. I see this as a wonderful gift to a child and perhaps the family you are with may consider this as an option. Love to the family and yourself Megan. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Lieve Huybrechts Sent: Monday, 2 December 2002 8:15 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends, Thanks for your advices and sharing. The baby is inoperable. The left side of the heart is not there, the aorta is hihgly underdeveloped, so as soon as the ductus of botalli closes the baby will go into a coma. Only a transplantation could help and that's impossible, they only do it on older children. We have pretty good heartsurgeons in Belgium, lets say that they are much better in pathology, but forgot a lot about fysiology :-)) I already suggested the mother to write things down. She has a very good contact with the baby, she can exactly tell how he is laying in her womb. We listen to the heartbeat together and she can talk about it. We plan to make foto's at birth and after. The mothers chooses a homebirth at this moment. It was her decision already for a healthy child and now she wants to be sure that there are no interventions to 'save' the baby. In the university hospital they sayd that if she gives birth there, for sure the baby will get an operation, even when there is no hope for him. It will be a child of the science. In the nearby hospital, the gyn is very supportive to her, but in a hospital so many peaple are involved and she will never know what midwife will be with her, what gyn, or what pediatrician. Even when she gets all what she wants, you can never predict that it is not a very busy day with a lot of births and that she can't stay in peace with her baby and her husband. I indeed feel it as a great honor and privilige to be with them and I also see birth and death as 'gateway' experiences. Maybe the baby just needs to be live in the womb and be born to become complete. Thanks for your support and I will let you know what happens. Warm greetings Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
"I got the idea that the Melbourne hospital is the only hospitalin Australia with the staff and facilities to provide the care. Don't knowwhere this care is available overseas." I think that it would be well worth looking into this and finding out more about the diagnosis and the new treatments and how and where these treatments are available. I do hope that others on the list can shed more light on this for these people and their baby. How amazingitwould beto be able to give this babes parents some hope. I think the parents are treading a hard road and have the courage to give their baby the best life they can - no matter how long or short it may be. Sending them my love and strength and hope. Rhonda. IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
You might be able to track it down through ACE Graphics even. I think the video was actually made around ' 85 as I was teaching ante-natal classes with PCA then and one of my supervisors on the course was one of the parents in that video, so I remember it well. The story of little Cosmo. Robin - Original Message - From: Julie Garratt To: ozmid Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 6:41 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together DearLieve, There is a wonderful Australian video called "Some Babies Die" It was produced in Sydney in the early nineties and It is available from the library in Mt Barker SA. It mainly follows the journey of one family who give birth to adear baby who lived only hours. The doctor and midwives involved are awe-inspiring to say the least. They continually bring the little babe in to the mother and family in the days following death and allow them to get to know and say goodbye to him.They alsotake photos of himand keep them aside if they are wanted later. This may sound strange but they say that these mementos often have huge valuelater for theparents.The Doctorwho started the program had lost several of his own children shortly after birth and he is just lovely to watch, awonderfulgifted man.I will post more details tomorrow so people can track it down as It is truly excellent and haswon severalawards. I hope all goes well for this brave family and every body involved. It is always so sad to think of anyone one losing a child and this one is obviously so very loved. Julie'', . - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts Sent: Sunday, 1 December 2002 1:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear list,I have a mother due in march. During the ultrasound on 22 weeks the gyndiscovered something was wrong with the heart of the baby. The expertiseultrasound showed that the left side of the heart is not developed. The babywill die soon after birth when the function of cord and placenta will stop.We had a lot of talks then and I was happy to support them in their choicesand to give them information.The parents decided to go on with the pregnancy and to have a homebirth.They enjoy the baby as long as he has to live. She comes to the birthcentreevery week and talks with the other moms and they are also very supportivefor her. I was wondering if someone has excperience with a likely situation and canshare it with me. Warm greetings Lieve--This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
[ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear friends, Thanks for your advices and sharing. The baby is inoperable. The left side of the heart is not there, the aorta is hihgly underdeveloped, so as soon as the ductus of botalli closes the baby will go into a coma. Only a transplantation could help and that's impossible, they only do it on older children. We have pretty good heartsurgeons in Belgium, lets say that they are much better in pathology, but forgot a lot about fysiology :-)) I already suggested the mother to write things down. She has a very good contact with the baby, she can exactly tell how he is laying in her womb. We listen to the heartbeat together and she can talk about it. We plan to make foto's at birth and after. The mothers chooses a homebirth at this moment. It was her decision already for a healthy child and now she wants to be sure that there are no interventions to 'save' the baby. In the university hospital they sayd that if she gives birth there, for sure the baby will get an operation, even when there is no hope for him. It will be a child of the science. In the nearby hospital, the gyn is very supportive to her, but in a hospital so many peaple are involved and she will never know what midwife will be with her, what gyn, or what pediatrician. Even when she gets all what she wants, you can never predict that it is not a very busy day with a lot of births and that she can't stay in peace with her baby and her husband. I indeed feel it as a great honor and privilige to be with them and I also see birth and death as 'gateway' experiences. Maybe the baby just needs to be live in the womb and be born to become complete. Thanks for your support and I will let you know what happens. Warm greetings Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Good luck Lieve, you bring tears to my eyes -you are such a special person. The couple and their baby are lucky to have you. Pinky - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 8:45 AM Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends, Thanks for your advices and sharing. The baby is inoperable. The left side of the heart is not there, the aorta is hihgly underdeveloped, so as soon as the ductus of botalli closes the baby will go into a coma. Only a transplantation could help and that's impossible, they only do it on older children. We have pretty good heartsurgeons in Belgium, lets say that they are much better in pathology, but forgot a lot about fysiology :-)) I already suggested the mother to write things down. She has a very good contact with the baby, she can exactly tell how he is laying in her womb. We listen to the heartbeat together and she can talk about it. We plan to make foto's at birth and after. The mothers chooses a homebirth at this moment. It was her decision already for a healthy child and now she wants to be sure that there are no interventions to 'save' the baby. In the university hospital they sayd that if she gives birth there, for sure the baby will get an operation, even when there is no hope for him. It will be a child of the science. In the nearby hospital, the gyn is very supportive to her, but in a hospital so many peaple are involved and she will never know what midwife will be with her, what gyn, or what pediatrician. Even when she gets all what she wants, you can never predict that it is not a very busy day with a lot of births and that she can't stay in peace with her baby and her husband. I indeed feel it as a great honor and privilige to be with them and I also see birth and death as 'gateway' experiences. Maybe the baby just needs to be live in the womb and be born to become complete. Thanks for your support and I will let you know what happens. Warm greetings Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
" Maybe the baby just needs tobe live in the womb and be born to become complete." How beautiful ..I am speachless. The woman is truely lucky to have you with her Lieve. Rhonda. ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, December 02, 2002 09:08:24 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear friends,Thanks for your advices and sharing.The baby is inoperable. The left side of the heart is not there, the aortais hihgly underdeveloped, so as soon as the ductus of botalli closes thebaby will go into a coma. Only a transplantation could help and that'simpossible, they only do it on older children. We have pretty goodheartsurgeons in Belgium, lets say that they are much better in pathology,but forgot a lot about fysiology :-))I already suggested the mother to write things down. She has a very goodcontact with the baby, she can exactly tell how he is laying in her womb. Welisten to the heartbeat together and she can talk about it.We plan to make foto's at birth and after.The mothers chooses a homebirth at this moment. It was her decision alreadyfor a healthy child and now she wants to be sure that there are nointerventions to 'save' the baby. In the university hospital they sayd thatif she gives birth there, for sure the baby will get an operation, even whenthere is no hope for him. It will be a child of the science.In the nearby hospital, the gyn is very supportive to her, but in a hospitalso many peaple are involved and she will never know what midwife will bewith her, what gyn, or what pediatrician. Even when she gets all what shewants, you can never predict that it is not a very busy day with a lot ofbirths and that she can't stay in peace with her baby and her husband.I indeed feel it as a great honor and privilige to be with them and I alsosee birth and death as 'gateway' experiences. Maybe the baby just needs tobe live in the womb and be born to become complete.Thanks for your support and I will let you know what happens.Warm greetingsLieve--This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.. IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Hi Lieve, 8 yrs ago I had a woman who had an U/S at 20 wks for her 4th baby (never had one before) and there were no abnomalities picked up on examination. Subsequently, she had a lovely homebirth waterbirth and had a little boy with good weight and APGARS. He wasn't as vigorous as the other children but fed and slept well. At about 2 wks of age he was going a bit blue in the lips after a feed and when X-Rayed was found to have an undeveloped left side of the heart. At that stage the only place to get treatment was thousands of kilometres away in Melbourne and only a 50/50 chance.of survival. The parents bravely opted not to put the baby through the operation and he died at home when he was 4 weeks old. The parents were so glad he was born at home and spent most of his short life with his family, in an atmosphere of love. MM -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Hi Lieve, It is sad but wonderful that these parents can prepare to say goodbye to their little one. I had a friend who was due two days after me but her baby died (due to some questionable medical intervention) at 27wks. This was totally unexpected. She was induced a few days later (after being weaned of warfarin - the suspected culprit) still in shock and at the time told the nurses she did not want to see the baby. She did say however when he was first born she saw his little face and she is now glad she did. Anyway all through my pregnancy I kept momentos of the pregnancy - a photo each month, all my ultrasound "photos",I did a pregnancy belly cast at 36weeks and had some of the birth videoed. I did this because I know that Claire will be my last baby and now I can look back at all these wonderful momentos of my pregnancy and can even feel my own pregnant belly. I told my friend who lost her baby about the things I was doing both before and after she lost her son. Before she lost the baby she thought I was a bit of a nut but in the weeks since she lost her son she says she wishes she had more momentos of those special months they spent together. She is pregnant again now and is planning to do all these things and is also keeping a week by week diary. It might be worth recommending some of these things to the lady you are caring for. Some of them you may even be able to share with her - my doula/midwife helped me make my belly cast which was a wonderful bonding thing for us. I hope it all goes as well as can be expected and that this sad event will also bring them a little joy as they meet their beautiful little angel. Debby From: Lieve Huybrechts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 09:46:56 +0100 Dear list, I have a mother due in march. During the ultrasound on 22 weeks the gyn discovered something was wrong with the heart of the baby. The expertise ultrasound showed that the left side of the heart is not developed. The baby will die soon after birth when the function of cord and placenta will stop. We had a lot of talks then and I was happy to support them in their choices and to give them information. The parents decided to go on with the pregnancy and to have a homebirth. They enjoy the baby as long as he has to live. She comes to the birthcentre every week and talks with the other moms and they are also very supportive for her. I was wondering if someone has excperience with a likely situation and can share it with me. Warm greetings Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe. Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear Lieve This sounds like hypoplastic heart. A colleagues' daughter gave birth to a son in June with this condition(undiagnosed prior to birth). He was good at birth and went blue after a few hours and was transferred to the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne, since when he has had 2 operations and was finally allowed home in October. I'm not sure what the long term prognosis is I think he needs another operation in a couple of years. He is a beautiful child and has lots of smiles for everyone. So perhaps your client might be able to explore the latest advances in heart surgery and talk to some of the experts - I do not know what the success rate is and how many surgeons there are around the world capable of doing the operations. best wishes to both you and the mother Carole - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 7:46 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear list, I have a mother due in march. During the ultrasound on 22 weeks the gyn discovered something was wrong with the heart of the baby. The expertise ultrasound showed that the left side of the heart is not developed. The baby will die soon after birth when the function of cord and placenta will stop. We had a lot of talks then and I was happy to support them in their choices and to give them information. The parents decided to go on with the pregnancy and to have a homebirth. They enjoy the baby as long as he has to live. She comes to the birthcentre every week and talks with the other moms and they are also very supportive for her. I was wondering if someone has excperience with a likely situation and can share it with me. Warm greetings Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
There was a recent (last couple of weeks) story on this in the Weekend Australian, I think. The story involved a baby from WA who was flown to Melbourne for the surgery. The story in the Australian seemed to me to focus on u/s picking up the defect so that the baby could be born in a facility with the surgery capabilities. The WA baby had either not been surveyed with u/s prior to birth OR the u/s survey had not picked it up, this was not clear to me. I got the idea that the Melbourne hospital is the only hospital in Australia with the staff and facilities to provide the care. Don't know where this care is available overseas. marilyn - Original Message - From: Carole Gilmour [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear Lieve This sounds like hypoplastic heart. A colleagues' daughter gave birth to a son in June with this condition(undiagnosed prior to birth). He was good at birth and went blue after a few hours and was transferred to the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne, since when he has had 2 operations and was finally allowed home in October. I'm not sure what the long term prognosis is I think he needs another operation in a couple of years. He is a beautiful child and has lots of smiles for everyone. So perhaps your client might be able to explore the latest advances in heart surgery and talk to some of the experts - I do not know what the success rate is and how many surgeons there are around the world capable of doing the operations. best wishes to both you and the mother Carole - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 7:46 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear list, I have a mother due in march. During the ultrasound on 22 weeks the gyn discovered something was wrong with the heart of the baby. The expertise ultrasound showed that the left side of the heart is not developed. The baby will die soon after birth when the function of cord and placenta will stop. We had a lot of talks then and I was happy to support them in their choices and to give them information. The parents decided to go on with the pregnancy and to have a homebirth. They enjoy the baby as long as he has to live. She comes to the birthcentre every week and talks with the other moms and they are also very supportive for her. I was wondering if someone has excperience with a likely situation and can share it with me. Warm greetings Lieve -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
Dear Lieve, These people must be exceptional people to choose this pathway on this journey. Many people take a different pathway and end their pregnancy at this junction. I have not experienced this in my homebirth journey. I think/feel that all the same things apply as for any birth, with gentleness and calmness. Watching with wonder as the cycle of birth and death moves quickly for the little one. Allowing events to unfold. Trusting your intuitive knowledge and trusting the parent's intuitive knowledge to act or not act as appropriate. I personally would feel it a great honor and privilege to be with a family in this situation. I am honored to be present at birthing and I have also been honored to be present at dieing. Recently we spoke on this list about the links many of us have with birth and death. Death is not to be feared but is, like birth, a 'gateway' experience. I think that this is not much help but is how I feel and how my attitude/heart is about this. Sally Westbury -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together
DearLieve, There is a wonderful Australian video called "Some Babies Die" It was produced in Sydney in the early nineties and It is available from the library in Mt Barker SA. It mainly follows the journey of one family who give birth to adear baby who lived only hours. The doctor and midwives involved are awe-inspiring to say the least. They continually bring the little babe in to the mother and family in the days following death and allow them to get to know and say goodbye to him.They alsotake photos of himand keep them aside if they are wanted later. This may sound strange but they say that these mementos often have huge valuelater for theparents.The Doctorwho started the program had lost several of his own children shortly after birth and he is just lovely to watch, awonderfulgifted man.I will post more details tomorrow so people can track it down as It is truly excellent and haswon severalawards. I hope all goes well for this brave family and every body involved. It is always so sad to think of anyone one losing a child and this one is obviously so very loved. Julie'', . - Original Message - From: Lieve Huybrechts Sent: Sunday, 1 December 2002 1:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ozmidwifery] When birth and death come together Dear list,I have a mother due in march. During the ultrasound on 22 weeks the gyndiscovered something was wrong with the heart of the baby. The expertiseultrasound showed that the left side of the heart is not developed. The babywill die soon after birth when the function of cord and placenta will stop.We had a lot of talks then and I was happy to support them in their choicesand to give them information.The parents decided to go on with the pregnancy and to have a homebirth.They enjoy the baby as long as he has to live. She comes to the birthcentreevery week and talks with the other moms and they are also very supportivefor her. I was wondering if someone has excperience with a likely situation and canshare it with me. Warm greetings Lieve--This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
