Re: Keep the PEFs?
K20D PEFs are smaller the the DNGs it produces. It also gives wildly inaccurate image space estimates available on the card in DNG mode as it uses the average size of PEFs to calculate space. On 3/26/2014 8:32 PM, Mark C wrote: John - I shot PEF's on my *ist-D and K-10D as well. My workflow eventually was to run them through Adobe DNG converter before editing and then discard the PEF's and work form the DNG's only. The *ist-D only offered PEF RAW files and and the K10D offers DNG's but they are uncompressed - I found it was better to shoot smaller PEF's, save space on the memory card, and then convert. The DNG's from ADOBE DNG converter could be much smaller than either the PEF's or the K10D DNG's. I don't know for the K20D since I have never used one. If you want DNG raw files and also to optimize drive space you might want to use the DNG converter for the K-10D files. Some time ago I had a mini project of converting all PEF's to DNG's and freed up what at the time was a lot of disk space. Like I said, don't know about the K20. You can test file sizes easily, of course. Mark On 3/26/2014 7:12 PM, John wrote: It was originally my question. In 2004 I shot a combination of JPEG, medium size TIFF and a very few PEF (RAW) files with the *ist-D. From 2005 - 2012 I shot PEF or PEF+JPEG with the *ist-D, K10D and K20D. At the beginning of 2013 I switched my RAW format to DNG for the K10D & K20D. I had the idea that it might simplify my life if I used Adobe's stand-alone DNG converter to convert all the old PEF files to DNG. I was curious whether after the DNG conversion I should keep *BOTH* the PEF files *and* the DNG files, or keep just the DNG files. -- A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant, and the crazy, crazier. - H.L.Mencken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
John - I shot PEF's on my *ist-D and K-10D as well. My workflow eventually was to run them through Adobe DNG converter before editing and then discard the PEF's and work form the DNG's only. The *ist-D only offered PEF RAW files and and the K10D offers DNG's but they are uncompressed - I found it was better to shoot smaller PEF's, save space on the memory card, and then convert. The DNG's from ADOBE DNG converter could be much smaller than either the PEF's or the K10D DNG's. I don't know for the K20D since I have never used one. If you want DNG raw files and also to optimize drive space you might want to use the DNG converter for the K-10D files. Some time ago I had a mini project of converting all PEF's to DNG's and freed up what at the time was a lot of disk space. Like I said, don't know about the K20. You can test file sizes easily, of course. Mark On 3/26/2014 7:12 PM, John wrote: It was originally my question. In 2004 I shot a combination of JPEG, medium size TIFF and a very few PEF (RAW) files with the *ist-D. From 2005 - 2012 I shot PEF or PEF+JPEG with the *ist-D, K10D and K20D. At the beginning of 2013 I switched my RAW format to DNG for the K10D & K20D. I had the idea that it might simplify my life if I used Adobe's stand-alone DNG converter to convert all the old PEF files to DNG. I was curious whether after the DNG conversion I should keep *BOTH* the PEF files *and* the DNG files, or keep just the DNG files. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
If the conversions are good there really isn't any good reason to keep the PEF files. Converting to other formats might depending on the conversion method, might cause a loss of data, so in that case I'd keep the PEF files. On 3/26/2014 7:12 PM, John wrote: It was originally my question. In 2004 I shot a combination of JPEG, medium size TIFF and a very few PEF (RAW) files with the *ist-D. From 2005 - 2012 I shot PEF or PEF+JPEG with the *ist-D, K10D and K20D. At the beginning of 2013 I switched my RAW format to DNG for the K10D & K20D. I had the idea that it might simplify my life if I used Adobe's stand-alone DNG converter to convert all the old PEF files to DNG. I was curious whether after the DNG conversion I should keep *BOTH* the PEF files *and* the DNG files, or keep just the DNG files. On 3/26/2014 2:44 PM, Ken Waller wrote: The way I read it, he's converting to DNG and then discarding the PEF files. Am I wrong about that? Wrong. I'm getting DNG out of the camera, running them thru ACR and saving as tiffs. Actually for me, its like taking a slide. WYSIWYG after the convewrsion in the tiff. I don't do anything wild in the RAW conversion to tiff and have yet to regret deleting the RAW files. Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message ----- From: "John" Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? On 3/20/2014 12:41 PM, Charles Robinson wrote: On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW files. Wow! To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? -Charles The way I read it, he's converting to DNG and then discarding the PEF files. Am I wrong about that? More akin to getting your film back from the lab, slipping the negatives into archival sleeves in a notebook and discarding the ENVELOPE the lab used to return your film. I'm not planning to get rid of the RAW files, I'm just asking if there's any reason I should keep redundant RAW files (DNG *and* PEF) after converting them? -- A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant, and the crazy, crazier. - H.L.Mencken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
It was originally my question. In 2004 I shot a combination of JPEG, medium size TIFF and a very few PEF (RAW) files with the *ist-D. From 2005 - 2012 I shot PEF or PEF+JPEG with the *ist-D, K10D and K20D. At the beginning of 2013 I switched my RAW format to DNG for the K10D & K20D. I had the idea that it might simplify my life if I used Adobe's stand-alone DNG converter to convert all the old PEF files to DNG. I was curious whether after the DNG conversion I should keep *BOTH* the PEF files *and* the DNG files, or keep just the DNG files. On 3/26/2014 2:44 PM, Ken Waller wrote: The way I read it, he's converting to DNG and then discarding the PEF files. Am I wrong about that? Wrong. I'm getting DNG out of the camera, running them thru ACR and saving as tiffs. Actually for me, its like taking a slide. WYSIWYG after the convewrsion in the tiff. I don't do anything wild in the RAW conversion to tiff and have yet to regret deleting the RAW files. Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "John" Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? On 3/20/2014 12:41 PM, Charles Robinson wrote: On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW files. Wow! To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? -Charles The way I read it, he's converting to DNG and then discarding the PEF files. Am I wrong about that? More akin to getting your film back from the lab, slipping the negatives into archival sleeves in a notebook and discarding the ENVELOPE the lab used to return your film. I'm not planning to get rid of the RAW files, I'm just asking if there's any reason I should keep redundant RAW files (DNG *and* PEF) after converting them? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
The way I read it, he's converting to DNG and then discarding the PEF files. Am I wrong about that? Wrong. I'm getting DNG out of the camera, running them thru ACR and saving as tiffs. Actually for me, its like taking a slide. WYSIWYG after the convewrsion in the tiff. I don't do anything wild in the RAW conversion to tiff and have yet to regret deleting the RAW files. Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "John" Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? On 3/20/2014 12:41 PM, Charles Robinson wrote: On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW files. Wow! To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? -Charles The way I read it, he's converting to DNG and then discarding the PEF files. Am I wrong about that? More akin to getting your film back from the lab, slipping the negatives into archival sleeves in a notebook and discarding the ENVELOPE the lab used to return your film. I'm not planning to get rid of the RAW files, I'm just asking if there's any reason I should keep redundant RAW files (DNG *and* PEF) after converting them? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
On Mar 25, 2014, at 5:27 PM, Mark C wrote: >> On 3/25/2014 11:45 AM, John wrote: >> What about the stand alone DNG converter from Adobe? >> >> Is there a qualitative difference between the output of the earlier DNG >> converters & the current version? > > I'm not sure, but I don't think there is a difference in quality between > different version of the the DNG converter. It simply converts from one > format to another. I thing that the ongoing updates are adding support for > more native formats, but the output is the same. The differences between ACR > versions are int he tools that manipulate the data in the RAW file - get > improvements in controlling tone, color, detail, fill light, etc. Just like ACR and Lightroom, the more recent versions of DNG Converter include support for more recent native raw formats, as well as enhancements for updated versions of the Digital Negative file standards. DNG is now at revision 1.3 or 1.4, which supports features needed for some cameras' raw formats that were not available in earlier revisions. It is always best to use the latest DNG Converter version and be sure to set the options if you need to target output for an older version of Camera Raw or Lightroom. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
On 3/25/2014 11:52 AM, John wrote: ... and another thing I should have asked: I have XMP sidecar files for many of my PEF files. Does either ACR in Photoshop CS6 or the stand-alone DNG converter incorporate the information in those sidecar files into the DNG when converting? I tested this in the past - it does import the XMP data and that will come over as the pre-set for the DNG. But of course, you can go back to "As shot." Mark -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
On 3/25/2014 11:45 AM, John wrote: What about the stand alone DNG converter from Adobe? Is there a qualitative difference between the output of the earlier DNG converters & the current version? I'm not sure, but I don't think there is a difference in quality between different version of the the DNG converter. It simply converts from one format to another. I thing that the ongoing updates are adding support for more native formats, but the output is the same. The differences between ACR versions are int he tools that manipulate the data in the RAW file - get improvements in controlling tone, color, detail, fill light, etc. Mark -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
on 2014-03-24 22:56 P.J. Alling wrote Someday someone will be looking at you hard drive find those photos and wonder; "What the hell was he thinking?" chances are, no one will ever look again at *all* the photos on any of our hard drives -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
I believe that both DNG Converter and LR will incorporate information in existing .xmp sidecar files when converting to DNG, but you should do a test to be sure. Godfrey > On Mar 25, 2014, at 8:52 AM, John wrote: > > ... and another thing I should have asked: > > I have XMP sidecar files for many of my PEF files. Does either ACR in > Photoshop CS6 or the stand-alone DNG converter incorporate the > information in those sidecar files into the DNG when converting? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
... and another thing I should have asked: I have XMP sidecar files for many of my PEF files. Does either ACR in Photoshop CS6 or the stand-alone DNG converter incorporate the information in those sidecar files into the DNG when converting? On 3/25/2014 8:10 AM, Mark C wrote: Not to mention that RAW conversion tools are continually improving - the 2012 ACR engine in Photoshop CS6 being one example. On 3/24/2014 3:57 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote: I figure my rendering skills are always improving, so I hang onto the RAWs. Just the other day I wanted to print a picture of my dog who had passed away. I went back to a 2004 shot I had produced with the *istD. I looked at the tiff and felt that it left something to be desired. Went back and did a new conversion. The result was a much nicer photo. Paul On Mar 24, 2014, at 3:16 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: Yep. At that point I consider the tiffs as my negative - I don't need to go back and convert the RAW again. -Original Message- From: Charles Robinson Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW files. Wow! To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? -Charles -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
What about the stand alone DNG converter from Adobe? Is there a qualitative difference between the output of the earlier DNG converters & the current version? On 3/25/2014 8:10 AM, Mark C wrote: Not to mention that RAW conversion tools are continually improving - the 2012 ACR engine in Photoshop CS6 being one example. On 3/24/2014 3:57 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote: I figure my rendering skills are always improving, so I hang onto the RAWs. Just the other day I wanted to print a picture of my dog who had passed away. I went back to a 2004 shot I had produced with the *istD. I looked at the tiff and felt that it left something to be desired. Went back and did a new conversion. The result was a much nicer photo. Paul On Mar 24, 2014, at 3:16 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: Yep. At that point I consider the tiffs as my negative - I don't need to go back and convert the RAW again. -Original Message- From: Charles Robinson Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW files. Wow! To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? -Charles -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
I've gotten to where I never delete photos from the camera, because if I do, it confuses me when I try to rename photos after I get them on the computer. On 3/25/2014 12:56 AM, P.J. Alling wrote: Someday someone will be looking at you hard drive find those photos and wonder; "What the hell was he thinking?" Of course I should talk, someone will be looking at mine and wonder why the hell I took so many photos of a doorknob. On 3/25/2014 12:34 AM, David Mann wrote: On Mar 25, 2014, at 10:00 am, Brian Walters wrote: Most of the photos I care about end up as multi-layered images in Photoshop (levels, curves, contrast, maybe a filter or custom action). I always keep the layered PSDs (as well as the original file) so that I can remember the workflow that produced the final image. Also helps greatly with those 'what was I thinking' moments That's pretty much the same as what I do. I don't take enough photos to pose a threat to my hard drive space. I don't even bother to delete the ones with bad technical faults (way out of focus etc). Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
Not to mention that RAW conversion tools are continually improving - the 2012 ACR engine in Photoshop CS6 being one example. On 3/24/2014 3:57 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote: I figure my rendering skills are always improving, so I hang onto the RAWs. Just the other day I wanted to print a picture of my dog who had passed away. I went back to a 2004 shot I had produced with the *istD. I looked at the tiff and felt that it left something to be desired. Went back and did a new conversion. The result was a much nicer photo. Paul On Mar 24, 2014, at 3:16 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: Yep. At that point I consider the tiffs as my negative - I don't need to go back and convert the RAW again. -Original Message- From: Charles Robinson Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW files. Wow! To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? -Charles -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
Someday someone will be looking at you hard drive find those photos and wonder; "What the hell was he thinking?" Of course I should talk, someone will be looking at mine and wonder why the hell I took so many photos of a doorknob. On 3/25/2014 12:34 AM, David Mann wrote: On Mar 25, 2014, at 10:00 am, Brian Walters wrote: Most of the photos I care about end up as multi-layered images in Photoshop (levels, curves, contrast, maybe a filter or custom action). I always keep the layered PSDs (as well as the original file) so that I can remember the workflow that produced the final image. Also helps greatly with those 'what was I thinking' moments That's pretty much the same as what I do. I don't take enough photos to pose a threat to my hard drive space. I don't even bother to delete the ones with bad technical faults (way out of focus etc). Cheers, Dave -- A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant, and the crazy, crazier. - H.L.Mencken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
On Mar 25, 2014, at 10:00 am, Brian Walters wrote: > Most of the photos I care about end up as multi-layered images in Photoshop > (levels, curves, contrast, maybe a filter or custom action). I always keep > the layered PSDs (as well as the original file) so that I can remember the > workflow that produced the final image. Also helps greatly with those 'what > was I thinking' moments That's pretty much the same as what I do. I don't take enough photos to pose a threat to my hard drive space. I don't even bother to delete the ones with bad technical faults (way out of focus etc). Cheers, Dave -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
Not only skills, but software too. Certainly Lightroom (/ACR) has seen some major improvements to its demosaicing and noise reduction over the years, and I'm sure other software likewise. Even given the same settings and skill level, one can get a much better result re-processing a raw file now than 5 or 10 years ago. - Peter -Original Message- From: Paul Stenquist Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 6:27 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? I figure my rendering skills are always improving, so I hang onto the RAWs. Just the other day I wanted to print a picture of my dog who had passed away. I went back to a 2004 shot I had produced with the *istD. I looked at the tiff and felt that it left something to be desired. Went back and did a new conversion. The result was a much nicer photo. Paul On Mar 24, 2014, at 3:16 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: Yep. At that point I consider the tiffs as my negative - I don't need to go back and convert the RAW again. -Original Message- From: Charles Robinson Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW files. Wow! To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? -Charles -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4354 / Virus Database: 3722/7241 - Release Date: 03/24/14 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
Quoting Paul Stenquist : I figure my rendering skills are always improving, so I hang onto the RAWs. Just the other day I wanted to print a picture of my dog who had passed away. I went back to a 2004 shot I had produced with the *istD. I looked at the tiff and felt that it left something to be desired. Went back and did a new conversion. The result was a much nicer photo. Most of the photos I care about end up as multi-layered images in Photoshop (levels, curves, contrast, maybe a filter or custom action). I always keep the layered PSDs (as well as the original file) so that I can remember the workflow that produced the final image. Also helps greatly with those 'what was I thinking' moments Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ Paul On Mar 24, 2014, at 3:16 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: Yep. At that point I consider the tiffs as my negative - I don't need to go back and convert the RAW again. -Original Message- From: Charles Robinson Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW files. Wow! To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? -Charles -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
I figure my rendering skills are always improving, so I hang onto the RAWs. Just the other day I wanted to print a picture of my dog who had passed away. I went back to a 2004 shot I had produced with the *istD. I looked at the tiff and felt that it left something to be desired. Went back and did a new conversion. The result was a much nicer photo. Paul On Mar 24, 2014, at 3:16 PM, Kenneth Waller wrote: > > Yep. At that point I consider the tiffs as my negative - I don't need to go > back and convert the RAW again. > > -Original Message- >> From: Charles Robinson >> Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? >> >> On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: >> >>>> 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? >>> If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. >>> After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW >>> files. >>> >> >> Wow! >> >> To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my >> negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? >> >> -Charles > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
Yep. At that point I consider the tiffs as my negative - I don't need to go back and convert the RAW again. -Original Message- >From: Charles Robinson >Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? > >On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: > >>> 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? >> If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. >> After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW >> files. >> > >Wow! > >To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my >negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? > > -Charles -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
On 3/20/2014 2:56 PM, P.J. Alling wrote: On 3/20/2014 2:51 PM, John wrote: On 3/20/2014 12:41 PM, Charles Robinson wrote: On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW files. Wow! To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? -Charles The way I read it, he's converting to DNG and then discarding the PEF files. Am I wrong about that? More akin to getting your film back from the lab, slipping the negatives into archival sleeves in a notebook and discarding the ENVELOPE the lab used to return your film. I'm not planning to get rid of the RAW files, I'm just asking if there's any reason I should keep redundant RAW files (DNG *and* PEF) after converting them? Proof of ownership for copyright purposes maybe? Practically useless unless you register the copyrights, and if you *do* register them, you don't need the PEFs for proof. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
On 3/20/2014 4:36 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: P.J. Alling wrote: On 3/20/2014 2:51 PM, John wrote: I'm not planning to get rid of the RAW files, I'm just asking if there's any reason I should keep redundant RAW files (DNG *and* PEF) after converting them? Proof of ownership for copyright purposes maybe? Makes no difference as far as copyright is concerned. The Library of Congress recommends DNG format for archiving purposes. I didn't think so, but weight of the evidence sometimes seems to refer to the weight of the paper it's printed on. -- A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant, and the crazy, crazier. - H.L.Mencken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
P.J. Alling wrote: >On 3/20/2014 2:51 PM, John wrote: >> I'm not planning to get rid of the RAW files, I'm just asking if there's >> any reason I should keep redundant RAW files (DNG *and* PEF) after >> converting them? > >Proof of ownership for copyright purposes maybe? Makes no difference as far as copyright is concerned. The Library of Congress recommends DNG format for archiving purposes. -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
On Mar 20, 2014, at 13:51 , John wrote: > On 3/20/2014 12:41 PM, Charles Robinson wrote: >> On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: >> 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? >>> If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. >>> After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW >>> files. >>> >> >> Wow! >> >> To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my >> negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? >> >> -Charles > > The way I read it, he's converting to DNG and then discarding the PEF > files. > Ah, I see. I was mis-interpreting "conversion". Slow-brain day, sorry. -Charles -- Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
On 3/20/2014 2:51 PM, John wrote: On 3/20/2014 12:41 PM, Charles Robinson wrote: On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW files. Wow! To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? -Charles The way I read it, he's converting to DNG and then discarding the PEF files. Am I wrong about that? More akin to getting your film back from the lab, slipping the negatives into archival sleeves in a notebook and discarding the ENVELOPE the lab used to return your film. I'm not planning to get rid of the RAW files, I'm just asking if there's any reason I should keep redundant RAW files (DNG *and* PEF) after converting them? Proof of ownership for copyright purposes maybe? -- A newspaper is a device for making the ignorant more ignorant, and the crazy, crazier. - H.L.Mencken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
On 3/20/2014 12:41 PM, Charles Robinson wrote: On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW files. Wow! To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? -Charles The way I read it, he's converting to DNG and then discarding the PEF files. Am I wrong about that? More akin to getting your film back from the lab, slipping the negatives into archival sleeves in a notebook and discarding the ENVELOPE the lab used to return your film. I'm not planning to get rid of the RAW files, I'm just asking if there's any reason I should keep redundant RAW files (DNG *and* PEF) after converting them? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
On Mar 14, 2014, at 23:16 , Ken Waller wrote: >> 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? > If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. > After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW files. > Wow! To my mind, this is like: "After a time period after making prints from my negatives, I generally throw away the negatives". Really? -Charles -- Charles Robinson - charl...@visi.com Minneapolis, MN http://charles.robinsontwins.org http://www.facebook.com/charles.robinson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
If I had known then what I know now, I'd have been shooting RAW from the get-go. But I didn't, so I didn't. I don't blame him for it. I think he gave what he believed was good advice based on what he knew at the time. On 3/15/2014 1:56 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: A sad misunderstanding from the early days of digital. TIFF in camera is an 8bit RGB format and essentially no better than JPEG except for the lack of compression losses. You can never return an RGB format to mosaiced raw data, but you can encapsulate it in DNG. It does benefit from some standardization, but little else. Godfrey On Mar 15, 2014, at 10:18 AM, John wrote: Herb Keppler (I think it was him) did a review of the *ist-D and he said that since the camera offered TIFF as one of the image formats, that was the way to go because the TIFF standard was likely to be around for a long time and the various camera RAW formats probably not so much. I don't know if you can convert them, but I think the DNG file will encapsulate them. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
On 3/16/2014 3:02 PM, Boris Liberman wrote: I regret not switching to DNG when I first had a chance - shot lots of PEFs with my K10D. IIRC - The K10D writes uncompressed DNG's which make for pretty large files. I used PEF still with my K10D and then run the files through Adobe DNG converter. Mark -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
On 16/03/2014 1:02 PM, Boris Liberman wrote: I regret not switching to DNG when I first had a chance - shot lots of PEFs with my K10D. This is something I would really like to see Fuji do. It has been so nice being able to seamlessly move from camera to camera with Pentax. I've been shooting jpegs with the X-T1 because Adobe hasn't caught up to that camera yet, and apparently hasn't really figured out a good way to deal with X-Trans raw files anyway. I suppose I should at least give Fuji's software a chance. bill -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
My take on this is thus: 1. Right now everyone of us has several choices of software (both for Mac and for Windows) that comfortably works with PEF files. 2. The DNG format is constantly evolving. Each major release of Adobe products introduces new version of the DNG format and its convertor. Therefore, putting 1 and 2 together I simply keep my PEF files and as soon as I will be starting to see the signs of its being abandoned by the software vendors, notably Adobe, only then I would convert to DNG format of that time. Meanwhile - doing regular backups, etc would be a good idea as always. I regret not switching to DNG when I first had a chance - shot lots of PEFs with my K10D. On 3/15/2014 1:40 AM, John wrote: I'm doing a *LOT* of computer work here lately, what with the new Mac mini, rescuing old files off of my mother's old computers & getting ready to add another NAS to my home network. Among other things, in line with my attempts to declutter my life, I'm contemplating revamping my photo storage and backups with the aim of reducing unnecessary duplication in those backups. I know I should keep a backup here and another off site, but I've got so many backups that I can't be sure which files are adequately backed up and which files are excessively, even OCD backups. At the beginning of 2013 I switched from PEF to DNG for my RAW file format. I have PEF files going back several years before that, with the *ist-D, the K10D and the K20D. I'm wondering if I should use Adobe's DNG converter on all those old PEF files, and IF I do should I still keep the PEF files? I would be amenable to receiving reasoned arguments (yes, I *know* it's the PDML) pro & con on the subject. 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert those to DNG as well? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
Not much excepting that you gain file type uniformity, maybe a little reduction in size and that the there is no need for sidecar files post edit. On 16 March 2014 11:43, Ken Waller wrote: > What advantage is there in encapsulating a Tiff in DNG? > > Kenneth Waller > http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller > > - Original Message - From: "Rob Studdert" > > Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? > > >> Literally using DNG as a container for the TIFF data, you retain the >> benefits of DNG WRT user edits but of course it can't strictly be >> developed like a RAW Bayer mosaic file. >> >> >> On 16 March 2014 11:30, Ken Waller wrote: >>>> >>>> You can never return an RGB format to mosaiced raw data, but you can >>>> encapsulate it in DNG. >>> >>> >>> >>> Not sure what you mean by 'encapsulate it in DNG'. >>> >>> Kenneth Waller >>> http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller >>> >>> - Original Message - From: "Godfrey DiGiorgi" >>> Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? >>> >>> >>> >>>> A sad misunderstanding from the early days of digital. TIFF in camera is >>>> an 8bit RGB format and essentially no better than JPEG except for the >>>> lack >>>> of compression losses. >>>> >>>> You can never return an RGB format to mosaiced raw data, but you can >>>> encapsulate it in DNG. It does benefit from some standardization, but >>>> little >>>> else. >>>> >>>> Godfrey >>>> >>>>> On Mar 15, 2014, at 10:18 AM, John wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Herb Keppler (I think it was him) did a review of the *ist-D and he >>>>> said >>>>> that since the camera offered TIFF as one of the image formats, that >>>>> was >>>>> the way to go because the TIFF standard was likely to be around for a >>>>> long time and the various camera RAW formats probably not so much. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know if you can convert them, but I think the DNG file will >>>>> encapsulate them. > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
What advantage is there in encapsulating a Tiff in DNG? Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "Rob Studdert" Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? Literally using DNG as a container for the TIFF data, you retain the benefits of DNG WRT user edits but of course it can't strictly be developed like a RAW Bayer mosaic file. On 16 March 2014 11:30, Ken Waller wrote: You can never return an RGB format to mosaiced raw data, but you can encapsulate it in DNG. Not sure what you mean by 'encapsulate it in DNG'. Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "Godfrey DiGiorgi" Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? A sad misunderstanding from the early days of digital. TIFF in camera is an 8bit RGB format and essentially no better than JPEG except for the lack of compression losses. You can never return an RGB format to mosaiced raw data, but you can encapsulate it in DNG. It does benefit from some standardization, but little else. Godfrey On Mar 15, 2014, at 10:18 AM, John wrote: Herb Keppler (I think it was him) did a review of the *ist-D and he said that since the camera offered TIFF as one of the image formats, that was the way to go because the TIFF standard was likely to be around for a long time and the various camera RAW formats probably not so much. I don't know if you can convert them, but I think the DNG file will encapsulate them. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
Literally using DNG as a container for the TIFF data, you retain the benefits of DNG WRT user edits but of course it can't strictly be developed like a RAW Bayer mosaic file. On 16 March 2014 11:30, Ken Waller wrote: >> You can never return an RGB format to mosaiced raw data, but you can >> encapsulate it in DNG. > > > Not sure what you mean by 'encapsulate it in DNG'. > > Kenneth Waller > http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller > > - Original Message ----- From: "Godfrey DiGiorgi" > Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? > > > >> A sad misunderstanding from the early days of digital. TIFF in camera is >> an 8bit RGB format and essentially no better than JPEG except for the lack >> of compression losses. >> >> You can never return an RGB format to mosaiced raw data, but you can >> encapsulate it in DNG. It does benefit from some standardization, but little >> else. >> >> Godfrey >> >>> On Mar 15, 2014, at 10:18 AM, John wrote: >>> >>> Herb Keppler (I think it was him) did a review of the *ist-D and he said >>> that since the camera offered TIFF as one of the image formats, that was >>> the way to go because the TIFF standard was likely to be around for a >>> long time and the various camera RAW formats probably not so much. >>> >>> I don't know if you can convert them, but I think the DNG file will >>> encapsulate them. > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
You can never return an RGB format to mosaiced raw data, but you can encapsulate it in DNG. Not sure what you mean by 'encapsulate it in DNG'. Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "Godfrey DiGiorgi" Subject: Re: Keep the PEFs? A sad misunderstanding from the early days of digital. TIFF in camera is an 8bit RGB format and essentially no better than JPEG except for the lack of compression losses. You can never return an RGB format to mosaiced raw data, but you can encapsulate it in DNG. It does benefit from some standardization, but little else. Godfrey On Mar 15, 2014, at 10:18 AM, John wrote: Herb Keppler (I think it was him) did a review of the *ist-D and he said that since the camera offered TIFF as one of the image formats, that was the way to go because the TIFF standard was likely to be around for a long time and the various camera RAW formats probably not so much. I don't know if you can convert them, but I think the DNG file will encapsulate them. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
That is a very good point, George, regarding the XMP file. I had noiced that PEF's always had an XMP file when edited, but DNG's did not, but never thought about it. Having the user edits embedded in the file strikes me as a good reason to use DNG, IMO. Thinking about it - I must of lost the data saved in the XMP files when I converted my *ist and K10D PEF's to DNG... Mark On 3/15/2014 10:37 AM, George Sinos wrote: I haven't contributed to the list for a while, but I don't think this point has been raised. If you use one of the non-destructive editors, such as Lightroom, your edits aren't written to the PEFs or the DNGs. In Lightroom the changes and much of the metadata is kept in the Lightroom catalog. If you want those changes stored with the file (so other programs can be aware of them) you'll need to change a setting in the preferences. Once you make that decision, the data is stored differently with PEFs and DNGs. Since the PEF file is proprietary, the data must be stored in a second "sidecar" file. This will have the same name as the original PEF, but have the extension of XMP. If you do anything with your files outside of Lightroom you'll need to manage these two files yourself. Since the DNG definition is public, the edit data is written back to the DNG file. So, you only have one file to manage. Early Lightroom books recommended that you don't make this change because the additional write slowed the editing process. I've always thought that was poor advice for most people. Newer books recognize that hardware is much faster and usually recommend changing this setting as one of the first setup steps. In my opinion the since the whole point of using a DNG is to help future proof your files, it only makes since to store the edits and metadata in the DNG instead of locking it up in the Lightroom Catalog. I the last couple of decades I've changed my primary editing and organization programs at least a couple of times, and often use other programs to supplement Lightroom. I'd rather keep the data up to date in each DNG as it changes than add a big export step to some future migration. And yes, to answer the original question, I delete the PEFs as soon as I've verified the DNGs have been verified. GS George Sinos www.GeorgesPhotos.net www.GeorgeSinos.com On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 8:03 AM, Mark C wrote: When I started shooting in DNG format a couple cmaeras ago I convertered all of my old PEF's to DNG's and dumped the PEF's. It is a small savings of drive space per file, but across lots of files it adds up. Mark On 3/14/2014 7:40 PM, John wrote: I'm doing a *LOT* of computer work here lately, what with the new Mac mini, rescuing old files off of my mother's old computers & getting ready to add another NAS to my home network. Among other things, in line with my attempts to declutter my life, I'm contemplating revamping my photo storage and backups with the aim of reducing unnecessary duplication in those backups. I know I should keep a backup here and another off site, but I've got so many backups that I can't be sure which files are adequately backed up and which files are excessively, even OCD backups. At the beginning of 2013 I switched from PEF to DNG for my RAW file format. I have PEF files going back several years before that, with the *ist-D, the K10D and the K20D. I'm wondering if I should use Adobe's DNG converter on all those old PEF files, and IF I do should I still keep the PEF files? I would be amenable to receiving reasoned arguments (yes, I *know* it's the PDML) pro & con on the subject. 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert those to DNG as well? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
Take the K-3 for example, what advantages are there if any to shooting pef vs dng? jco On 3/15/2014 6:17 PM, Brian Walters wrote: Quoting John Coyle : I'd ditch the PEF files once you have converted them, and backed up the conversions, John. If the TIFFs are not processed, I'd treat them the same way, no point in having multiple formats around. Don't know whether Ricoh/Pentax will continue with the PEF format for ever, so a more common and widely-supported format makes sense as the original format to use and keep. There have already been some moves to abandon PEF. The Q, K-01, K-30, K-50, K-500 only offer DNG - no PEF (there may be others). I understand that the K-3 offers both Raw formats but I wonder whether future cameras will do so. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ John Coyle Brisbane, Australia -Original Message- From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John Sent: Saturday, 15 March 2014 9:41 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Keep the PEFs? I'm doing a *LOT* of computer work here lately, what with the new Mac mini, rescuing old files off of my mother's old computers & getting ready to add another NAS to my home network. Among other things, in line with my attempts to declutter my life, I'm contemplating revamping my photo storage and backups with the aim of reducing unnecessary duplication in those backups. I know I should keep a backup here and another off site, but I've got so many backups that I can't be sure which files are adequately backed up and which files are excessively, even OCD backups. At the beginning of 2013 I switched from PEF to DNG for my RAW file format. I have PEF files going back several years before that, with the *ist-D, the K10D and the K20D. I'm wondering if I should use Adobe's DNG converter on all those old PEF files, and IF I do should I still keep the PEF files? I would be amenable to receiving reasoned arguments (yes, I *know* it's the PDML) pro & con on the subject. 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert those to DNG as well? -- J.C. O'Connell hifis...@gate.net -- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
Quoting John Coyle : I'd ditch the PEF files once you have converted them, and backed up the conversions, John. If the TIFFs are not processed, I'd treat them the same way, no point in having multiple formats around. Don't know whether Ricoh/Pentax will continue with the PEF format for ever, so a more common and widely-supported format makes sense as the original format to use and keep. There have already been some moves to abandon PEF. The Q, K-01, K-30, K-50, K-500 only offer DNG - no PEF (there may be others). I understand that the K-3 offers both Raw formats but I wonder whether future cameras will do so. Cheers Brian ++ Brian Walters Western Sydney Australia http://lyons-ryan.org/southernlight/ John Coyle Brisbane, Australia -Original Message- From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John Sent: Saturday, 15 March 2014 9:41 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Keep the PEFs? I'm doing a *LOT* of computer work here lately, what with the new Mac mini, rescuing old files off of my mother's old computers & getting ready to add another NAS to my home network. Among other things, in line with my attempts to declutter my life, I'm contemplating revamping my photo storage and backups with the aim of reducing unnecessary duplication in those backups. I know I should keep a backup here and another off site, but I've got so many backups that I can't be sure which files are adequately backed up and which files are excessively, even OCD backups. At the beginning of 2013 I switched from PEF to DNG for my RAW file format. I have PEF files going back several years before that, with the *ist-D, the K10D and the K20D. I'm wondering if I should use Adobe's DNG converter on all those old PEF files, and IF I do should I still keep the PEF files? I would be amenable to receiving reasoned arguments (yes, I *know* it's the PDML) pro & con on the subject. 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert those to DNG as well? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
A sad misunderstanding from the early days of digital. TIFF in camera is an 8bit RGB format and essentially no better than JPEG except for the lack of compression losses. You can never return an RGB format to mosaiced raw data, but you can encapsulate it in DNG. It does benefit from some standardization, but little else. Godfrey > On Mar 15, 2014, at 10:18 AM, John wrote: > > Herb Keppler (I think it was him) did a review of the *ist-D and he said > that since the camera offered TIFF as one of the image formats, that was > the way to go because the TIFF standard was likely to be around for a > long time and the various camera RAW formats probably not so much. > > I don't know if you can convert them, but I think the DNG file will > encapsulate them. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
On 3/15/2014 12:16 AM, Ken Waller wrote: 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW files. 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? See answer to 1. above 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert those to DNG as well? I wasn't aware you could convert .Tif files back to DNG The *ist-D allowed you to use TIFF as your image format in camera. I had a subscription to Popular Photography delivered to my APO address in Iraq. Herb Keppler (I think it was him) did a review of the *ist-D and he said that since the camera offered TIFF as one of the image formats, that was the way to go because the TIFF standard was likely to be around for a long time and the various camera RAW formats probably not so much. I don't know if you can convert them, but I think the DNG file will encapsulate them. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
I haven't contributed to the list for a while, but I don't think this point has been raised. If you use one of the non-destructive editors, such as Lightroom, your edits aren't written to the PEFs or the DNGs. In Lightroom the changes and much of the metadata is kept in the Lightroom catalog. If you want those changes stored with the file (so other programs can be aware of them) you'll need to change a setting in the preferences. Once you make that decision, the data is stored differently with PEFs and DNGs. Since the PEF file is proprietary, the data must be stored in a second "sidecar" file. This will have the same name as the original PEF, but have the extension of XMP. If you do anything with your files outside of Lightroom you'll need to manage these two files yourself. Since the DNG definition is public, the edit data is written back to the DNG file. So, you only have one file to manage. Early Lightroom books recommended that you don't make this change because the additional write slowed the editing process. I've always thought that was poor advice for most people. Newer books recognize that hardware is much faster and usually recommend changing this setting as one of the first setup steps. In my opinion the since the whole point of using a DNG is to help future proof your files, it only makes since to store the edits and metadata in the DNG instead of locking it up in the Lightroom Catalog. I the last couple of decades I've changed my primary editing and organization programs at least a couple of times, and often use other programs to supplement Lightroom. I'd rather keep the data up to date in each DNG as it changes than add a big export step to some future migration. And yes, to answer the original question, I delete the PEFs as soon as I've verified the DNGs have been verified. GS George Sinos www.GeorgesPhotos.net www.GeorgeSinos.com On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 8:03 AM, Mark C wrote: > When I started shooting in DNG format a couple cmaeras ago I convertered all > of my old PEF's to DNG's and dumped the PEF's. It is a small savings of > drive space per file, but across lots of files it adds up. > > Mark > > > On 3/14/2014 7:40 PM, John wrote: >> >> I'm doing a *LOT* of computer work here lately, what with the new Mac >> mini, rescuing old files off of my mother's old computers & getting >> ready to add another NAS to my home network. >> >> Among other things, in line with my attempts to declutter my life, I'm >> contemplating revamping my photo storage and backups with the aim of >> reducing unnecessary duplication in those backups. I know I should keep >> a backup here and another off site, but I've got so many backups that I >> can't be sure which files are adequately backed up and which files are >> excessively, even OCD backups. >> >> At the beginning of 2013 I switched from PEF to DNG for my RAW file >> format. I have PEF files going back several years before that, with the >> *ist-D, the K10D and the K20D. >> >> I'm wondering if I should use Adobe's DNG converter on all those old PEF >> files, and IF I do should I still keep the PEF files? >> >> I would be amenable to receiving reasoned arguments (yes, I *know* it's >> the PDML) pro & con on the subject. >> >> 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? >> 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition >> to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? >> 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert >> those to DNG as well? >> > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
When I started shooting in DNG format a couple cmaeras ago I convertered all of my old PEF's to DNG's and dumped the PEF's. It is a small savings of drive space per file, but across lots of files it adds up. Mark On 3/14/2014 7:40 PM, John wrote: I'm doing a *LOT* of computer work here lately, what with the new Mac mini, rescuing old files off of my mother's old computers & getting ready to add another NAS to my home network. Among other things, in line with my attempts to declutter my life, I'm contemplating revamping my photo storage and backups with the aim of reducing unnecessary duplication in those backups. I know I should keep a backup here and another off site, but I've got so many backups that I can't be sure which files are adequately backed up and which files are excessively, even OCD backups. At the beginning of 2013 I switched from PEF to DNG for my RAW file format. I have PEF files going back several years before that, with the *ist-D, the K10D and the K20D. I'm wondering if I should use Adobe's DNG converter on all those old PEF files, and IF I do should I still keep the PEF files? I would be amenable to receiving reasoned arguments (yes, I *know* it's the PDML) pro & con on the subject. 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert those to DNG as well? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
I'm with the convert the PEF to DNG then ditch the PEF files crowd. I don't know why they still persist with the legacy RAW format, I can see them dropping it sooner than later. On 15 March 2014 15:16, Ken Waller wrote: >> 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? > > If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. > After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW > files. > > >> 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition >> to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? > > See answer to 1. above > > >> 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert >> those to DNG as well? > > I wasn't aware you could convert .Tif files back to DNG > > > > Kenneth Waller > http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller > > - Original Message - From: "John" > Subject: Keep the PEFs? > > > >> I'm doing a *LOT* of computer work here lately, what with the new Mac >> mini, rescuing old files off of my mother's old computers & getting >> ready to add another NAS to my home network. >> >> Among other things, in line with my attempts to declutter my life, I'm >> contemplating revamping my photo storage and backups with the aim of >> reducing unnecessary duplication in those backups. I know I should keep >> a backup here and another off site, but I've got so many backups that I >> can't be sure which files are adequately backed up and which files are >> excessively, even OCD backups. >> >> At the beginning of 2013 I switched from PEF to DNG for my RAW file >> format. I have PEF files going back several years before that, with the >> *ist-D, the K10D and the K20D. >> >> I'm wondering if I should use Adobe's DNG converter on all those old PEF >> files, and IF I do should I still keep the PEF files? >> >> I would be amenable to receiving reasoned arguments (yes, I *know* it's >> the PDML) pro & con on the subject. >> >> 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? >> 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition >> to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? >> 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert >> those to DNG as well? > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and > follow the directions. -- Rob Studdert (Digital Image Studio) Tel: +61-418-166-870 UTC +10 Hours Gmail, eBay, Skype, Twitter, Facebook, Picasa: distudio -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? If you're keeping the RAW files I'd say yes. After a time period after RAW file conversion I generall delete the RAW files. 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? See answer to 1. above 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert those to DNG as well? I wasn't aware you could convert .Tif files back to DNG Kenneth Waller http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller - Original Message - From: "John" Subject: Keep the PEFs? I'm doing a *LOT* of computer work here lately, what with the new Mac mini, rescuing old files off of my mother's old computers & getting ready to add another NAS to my home network. Among other things, in line with my attempts to declutter my life, I'm contemplating revamping my photo storage and backups with the aim of reducing unnecessary duplication in those backups. I know I should keep a backup here and another off site, but I've got so many backups that I can't be sure which files are adequately backed up and which files are excessively, even OCD backups. At the beginning of 2013 I switched from PEF to DNG for my RAW file format. I have PEF files going back several years before that, with the *ist-D, the K10D and the K20D. I'm wondering if I should use Adobe's DNG converter on all those old PEF files, and IF I do should I still keep the PEF files? I would be amenable to receiving reasoned arguments (yes, I *know* it's the PDML) pro & con on the subject. 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert those to DNG as well? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
RE: Keep the PEFs?
I'd ditch the PEF files once you have converted them, and backed up the conversions, John. If the TIFFs are not processed, I'd treat them the same way, no point in having multiple formats around. Don't know whether Ricoh/Pentax will continue with the PEF format for ever, so a more common and widely-supported format makes sense as the original format to use and keep. John Coyle Brisbane, Australia -Original Message- From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John Sent: Saturday, 15 March 2014 9:41 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Keep the PEFs? I'm doing a *LOT* of computer work here lately, what with the new Mac mini, rescuing old files off of my mother's old computers & getting ready to add another NAS to my home network. Among other things, in line with my attempts to declutter my life, I'm contemplating revamping my photo storage and backups with the aim of reducing unnecessary duplication in those backups. I know I should keep a backup here and another off site, but I've got so many backups that I can't be sure which files are adequately backed up and which files are excessively, even OCD backups. At the beginning of 2013 I switched from PEF to DNG for my RAW file format. I have PEF files going back several years before that, with the *ist-D, the K10D and the K20D. I'm wondering if I should use Adobe's DNG converter on all those old PEF files, and IF I do should I still keep the PEF files? I would be amenable to receiving reasoned arguments (yes, I *know* it's the PDML) pro & con on the subject. 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert those to DNG as well? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
John wrote: >1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? >2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition >to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? >3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert >those to DNG as well? Convert to DNG and forget it. The DNGs will take up slightly less space. The DNGs are more likely to be supported in the long run. Most importantly, the DNG format includes an MD5 hash that allows for file verification. See http://dpbestflow.org/DNG (DP Bestflow is a project of the ASMP and the Library of Congress for workflow and archiving). -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
> On Mar 14, 2014, at 4:40 PM, John wrote: > > 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? > 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition > to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? > 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert > those to DNG as well? The only real, immediate value to be had from converting existing PEF files to DNG is to save disk space, as many older cameras did not do lossless compression of their raw files. K10D and later cameras produced compressed PEF files, so there's little value to converting them. If you do convert all the raw files to DNG, there's no value to saving the original PEFs. Unless you're thinking to use some software that can only read the PEFs, they are effectively the same thing. TIFF files can be encapsulated into DNG files, and similarly, if you net a reduction in file size from doing that, there's some value in it. Remember, though, that they are still TIFF RGB channel oriented files inside, there's no image processing gain to be had from converting them. I converted all my old raw files from whatever camera to DNG ages ago because, at that time, it saved a lot of disk space, and disk space was a lot more expensive then than it is now. I stopped bothering to do so when more recent cameras were doing the raw file lossless compression by default—it was no longer worth the extra step in processing, not to mention that the cost of disk space had dropped to 1/10 of what it was in the early/middle 2000s. G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Keep the PEFs?
On 14/03/2014 5:40 PM, John wrote: 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert those to DNG as well? I wouldn't bother keeping the PEFs once the conversion was done. Of course, I probably wouldn't bother converting them into DNGs, I'd just leave them alone. Really, there isn't a lot to be gained in touching the files. They won't convert any worse in the future, and I suspect that the conversion isn't future proofing them very much either. bill -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Keep the PEFs?
I'm doing a *LOT* of computer work here lately, what with the new Mac mini, rescuing old files off of my mother's old computers & getting ready to add another NAS to my home network. Among other things, in line with my attempts to declutter my life, I'm contemplating revamping my photo storage and backups with the aim of reducing unnecessary duplication in those backups. I know I should keep a backup here and another off site, but I've got so many backups that I can't be sure which files are adequately backed up and which files are excessively, even OCD backups. At the beginning of 2013 I switched from PEF to DNG for my RAW file format. I have PEF files going back several years before that, with the *ist-D, the K10D and the K20D. I'm wondering if I should use Adobe's DNG converter on all those old PEF files, and IF I do should I still keep the PEF files? I would be amenable to receiving reasoned arguments (yes, I *know* it's the PDML) pro & con on the subject. 1. Should I convert all the old PEF files to DNG? 2. Should I keep backup copies of all those old PEF files, in addition to the two backups (on & off site) I intend to make for the DNG files? 3. Some of the *ist-D files are .TIF files - can I, should I convert those to DNG as well? -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
