Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Peter wrote: If it doesn't sell for a fairytail amount then who'll buy it? I don't think it is intended to sell. I don't think anyone are into DSLR to make money in the short term. They release the *ist D to signalize that they are determined to still be a contender in slr's that take 35mm system lenses. They are just saying hey, we will continue to make slr's; digital or not. If the users who sits on old K-mount lenses fails to buy it it makes no real difference. They are far to few and Pentax must anyway try to reach new customers and they won't do that by making compatibilities that are expensive and a non-issue for such users. It may be sad but there really isn't much point from a commercial point of view to make compatibility with more than 20 year old lenses. I wish they did, but I have no problems understanding why they don't. Pål
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Pål Jensen wrote: I don't think it is intended to sell. I don't think anyone are into DSLR to make money in the short term. ROFL. Then it must be a world-wide conspiracy to kill film. They will be giving away digicams until they see Kodak and Fuji crumbling. Oh, wait a minute, they are also giving away digicams... it's just one of those world-wide conspiracies with no point at all. cheers, caveman
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Anthony wrote: Perhaps YOU don't think a Pentax is worth $US1,600, that's your privelege. I don't think Pentax need customers unwilling to pay for it. Pål
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
It doesn't matter what I think it's worth, (if it had a Canon or Nikon name plate on it they could probably sell a lessor Camera for a higher price), Pentax is introducing a product that will compete on price, not on installed base on some perceived value but on price it has to cheep since it's not likely to be special. You can draw your own conclusions. Old_Timer_Rant ONI've been using Pentax Gear for a very long time, It wouldn't take much for me to think that it would be worth paying a premium for a Pentax DSLR. This one doesn't seem to deliver even that!old_timer_rant=OFF P. S. Just because you won't feel ridicules carrying an external meter to use with an ELECTRONIC DIGITAL CAMERA with an APS sized sensor, (for what landscapes I wonder), I know I would. At 01:41 AM 6/12/03 +1000, you wrote: The rot sets in when a brand lowers its prices to chase customers. When it does that it attracts a cheapskate customer base who lock it into the bottom of the market forever. Yashica did not sell Contaxes cheap because it (Yashica) was a cheap brand. Cosina does not sell Voigtlanders cheap just because because they are a cheap brand. Pentax may not be in Canon's or a Nikon's perceived price bracket, but they are better than Yashica or Cosina ever was. And Pentax doesn't need to resurrect a dead German marque to justify middle of the range prices, let alone the upper range prices that Yashica (later Kyocera) or Cosina charge for their Gerpanese brands. Perhaps YOU don't think a Pentax is worth $US1,600, that's your privelege. I'm out of professional photography at present and can't justify any photographic acquisitions. If I was still active I'd get an *ist D the day it appeared. The compatability question is not an issue at all. If it was unavoidable that a K/M lens was required I'd use an external meter. It's what I do when I use any format larger than 35mm, anyway. regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: Peter Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] that If it doesn't sell for a fairytail amount then who'll buy it? Not the long time Pentax users who are turned off by the lack of compatibility. Not the PJ's who are locked into Canon, it won't attract Nikon users (not much would). Let's face it the *ist-D will be competing with not only the entry level offerings from everyone else, but also the top level Digital ZLR's, PS digitals and used D-SLR's that are being replaced with the Next New Thing. It will have to be in-expensive Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. --Groucho Marx
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
I think we disposed of the expense issue quite some time ago. We also disposed of the reason why backward compatibility is important as well, see any of Mark Roberts excellent posts in this and other *ist-D related threads. To respond to your supposed point. They better sell all of the *ist-D's they make or they will never make another. Pentax is becoming a marketing company. With all that implies. You are mixing two contradictory arguments in your post: 1.) Pentax doesn't care how many of these bastard things they market so why make them compatible. 2.) Pentax is making a statement that they plan to be around for a long time and support their lenses with new bodies, (but we'll cripple them so you can't use some for no particular reason except marketing). What I see is a marketing decision to sell lenses, if they don't sell any of these bodies they won't sell new lenses so why build the body. At 05:52 PM 6/11/03 +0200, you wrote: Peter wrote: If it doesn't sell for a fairytail amount then who'll buy it? I don't think it is intended to sell. I don't think anyone are into DSLR to make money in the short term. They release the *ist D to signalize that they are determined to still be a contender in slr's that take 35mm system lenses. They are just saying hey, we will continue to make slr's; digital or not. If the users who sits on old K-mount lenses fails to buy it it makes no real difference. They are far to few and Pentax must anyway try to reach new customers and they won't do that by making compatibilities that are expensive and a non-issue for such users. It may be sad but there really isn't much point from a commercial point of view to make compatibility with more than 20 year old lenses. I wish they did, but I have no problems understanding why they don't. Pål Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. --Groucho Marx
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Peter wrote: Pentax is introducing a product that will compete on price, not on installed base on some perceived value but on price it has to cheep since it's not likely to be special. Yep. And that probably explains why the can't afford an expensive lens mount and a more expensive metering system. Pål
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Peter wrote: You are mixing two contradictory arguments in your post: 1.) Pentax doesn't care how many of these bastard things they market so why make them compatible. That was not what I said. Or meant to say. Making them comoatible don't make any difference for sales exept making the thing more expensive. 2.) Pentax is making a statement that they plan to be around for a long time and support their lenses with new bodies, (but we'll cripple them so you can't use some for no particular reason except marketing). What I see is a marketing decision to sell lenses, if they don't sell any of these bodies they won't sell new lenses so why build the body. I think you are way out of propotions. There simply aren't that many K and M lenses in use. Particularly not on a potential DSLR. Nobody makes DSLR's for 20+ year old lenses perhaps because it isn't such a good idea commercially. There also might be sound technical reasons for a total change of metering principle; the *ist D needs to be compatible with future lenses. Not lenses from more than 20 years back. Pål
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:18:33 -0600 From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: alexanderkrohe Subject: Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3 BTW A system which *really* changed the mount twice was Mamiya (their 35mm system). And look at how well Mamiya 35mm cameras are doing now. The problem was not the electronic lens mount of the ZE(X); it was the extremely limited selection of lenses. Had Mamiya stuck to M42 they would have gone bankrupt either way ... Besides Mamiya's electronic lens mount was a success. Its medium format incarnation is sill continuing living (in the RZ67). Alexander __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
On Wed, 11 Jun 2003, [iso-8859-1] Pål Jensen wrote: Yep. And that probably explains why the can't afford an expensive lens mount and a more expensive metering system. I totally ignore all the threads about this, so I have no idea of someone threw this out yet..but is it possible there's to be four 35mm style cameras in the line up? Cheap: Ist, Ist D and a higher scaled version of each? Perhaps in an LX style system, interchangable stuff, higher sync for film, etc, and a full frame or just larger pixel count for the digital? Eh, whatever. I'll just hold out for the digital 645 insert and the day they unleash those USM/IS 645 mount and lenses (I mean, hey, if I'm day dreaming...). -- http://www.infotainment.org - more fun than a poke in your eye. http://www.eighteenpercent.com- photography and portfolio.
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Pål Jensen wrote: There simply aren't that many K and M lenses in use. On what data do you base your statement ? cheers, caveman
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
I think that the *ist is a good indication of the market they're after. And this is a good hint for answering your question. gfen wrote: I totally ignore all the threads about this, so I have no idea of someone threw this out yet..but is it possible there's to be four 35mm style cameras in the line up? Cheap: Ist, Ist D and a higher scaled version of each? Perhaps in an LX style system, interchangable stuff, higher sync for film, etc, and a full frame or just larger pixel count for the digital?
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
No one make a DSLR for the old lenses because they made the old lenses obsolete when auto focus was introduced. (Except for Nikon and Pentax). There are more K/M mount lenses in use than you give credit for after all Pentax still supports them, sort of. At 07:52 PM 6/11/03 +0200, you wrote: Peter wrote: You are mixing two contradictory arguments in your post: 1.) Pentax doesn't care how many of these bastard things they market so why make them compatible. That was not what I said. Or meant to say. Making them comoatible don't make any difference for sales exept making the thing more expensive. 2.) Pentax is making a statement that they plan to be around for a long time and support their lenses with new bodies, (but we'll cripple them so you can't use some for no particular reason except marketing). What I see is a marketing decision to sell lenses, if they don't sell any of these bodies they won't sell new lenses so why build the body. I think you are way out of propotions. There simply aren't that many K and M lenses in use. Particularly not on a potential DSLR. Nobody makes DSLR's for 20+ year old lenses perhaps because it isn't such a good idea commercially. There also might be sound technical reasons for a total change of metering principle; the *ist D needs to be compatible with future lenses. Not lenses from more than 20 years back. Pål Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. --Groucho Marx
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
I guess what I want to know about the two FAJ sigma killers in the works is: are they _better_ than Sigma lenses? Arnold Stark wrote: Alexander, When I invested into new and old Pentax equipment I did so because of the compatibilty of the k-mount. Suddenly this compatibilty is reduced for effectively no particular reason at all. Pentax is NOT just doing what everybody else does: Pentax changed its mount already in 1975. They have advertised the compatibilty of the k-mount ever since the SFX. Now they are effectively changing their mount for the 2nd time - which other manufacturer changed their mount twice? And even if they were doing like everybody else, this would not make their move any better. Everybody else doing something bad is no excuse for me doing so, too. Yes, I can use my A, F and FA lenses on the *ist D, and even if there was full compatibilty they certainly match it much better than K-and M-series lenses. However, I still can not see why Pentax decides that I should NOT be able to sensibly use my older lenses on the *ist D as well. I myself want to be able to decide which of my Pentax lenses I use on the *ist D. I am adult and can take my own decisions. Arnold Then most of your stuff will fit the *istD. You said in an earlier post that the you have a complete line-up of AF lenses. I can't help I find this continuous whining highly exaggregated. And irrational. Pentax just did what every other company is doing.
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
So THAT'S what it's about, your public image. Anyone who cares what the rest of the world thinks does not have the temperament to be a photographer IMO. regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: Peter Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] (snip) P. S. Just because you won't feel ridicules carrying an external meter to use with an ELECTRONIC DIGITAL CAMERA with an APS sized sensor, (for what landscapes I wonder), I know I would.
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Peter, Remind me which case your arguing. This supports both sides. - Original Message - From: Peter Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] No one make a DSLR for the old lenses because they made the old lenses obsolete when auto focus was introduced. (Except for Nikon and Pentax). There are more K/M mount lenses in use than you give credit for after all Pentax still supports them, sort of. So regardless of the fact that Pentax had the generosity of spirit to let you keep using any lens that they'd made since 1975 with full functionality when they went AF, they're bastards now that they've reduced (not eliminated mind you) the functionality of lenses made before about 1980 (23 years ago). Is that correct? regards, Anthony Farr
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Only when you take it out of context. At 03:34 PM 6/12/03 +1000, you wrote: Peter, Remind me which case your arguing. This supports both sides. - Original Message - From: Peter Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] No one make a DSLR for the old lenses because they made the old lenses obsolete when auto focus was introduced. (Except for Nikon and Pentax). There are more K/M mount lenses in use than you give credit for after all Pentax still supports them, sort of. So regardless of the fact that Pentax had the generosity of spirit to let you keep using any lens that they'd made since 1975 with full functionality when they went AF, they're bastards now that they've reduced (not eliminated mind you) the functionality of lenses made before about 1980 (23 years ago). Is that correct? regards, Anthony Farr To grasp the true meaning of socialism, imagine a world where everything is designed by the post office, even the sleaze. O'Rourke, P.J.
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Thanks for the personal attack. I really don't care what others think of me it's what I think of myself. The general public will look and see nothing, except for the few who know what a light meter is, and think 'that's kind of cool'. ...and with that statement I don't think I really care what you think about this subject either. At 03:24 PM 6/12/03 +1000, you wrote: So THAT'S what it's about, your public image. Anyone who cares what the rest of the world thinks does not have the temperament to be a photographer IMO. regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: Peter Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] (snip) P. S. Just because you won't feel ridicules carrying an external meter to use with an ELECTRONIC DIGITAL CAMERA with an APS sized sensor, (for what landscapes I wonder), I know I would. To grasp the true meaning of socialism, imagine a world where everything is designed by the post office, even the sleaze. O'Rourke, P.J.
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:07:21 +0200 From: Arnold Stark [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am sick of this those who have not bought a new lens in the last 20 years can hardly be called customers. I have spent the equivalent of several thousand dollars on new Pentax lenses in the past 6 years, I am a customer, even if have bought even more used stuff. Then most of your stuff will fit the *istD. You said in an earlier post that the you have a complete line-up of AF lenses. I can't help I find this continuous whining highly exaggregated. And irrational. Pentax just did what every other company is doing. I feel neglected, and I guess I am not the only one. They think business not care-taking. Enjoy, Alexnder __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Alexander, When I invested into new and old Pentax equipment I did so because of the compatibilty of the k-mount. Suddenly this compatibilty is reduced for effectively no particular reason at all. Pentax is NOT just doing what everybody else does: Pentax changed its mount already in 1975. They have advertised the compatibilty of the k-mount ever since the SFX. Now they are effectively changing their mount for the 2nd time - which other manufacturer changed their mount twice? And even if they were doing like everybody else, this would not make their move any better. Everybody else doing something bad is no excuse for me doing so, too. Yes, I can use my A, F and FA lenses on the *ist D, and even if there was full compatibilty they certainly match it much better than K-and M-series lenses. However, I still can not see why Pentax decides that I should NOT be able to sensibly use my older lenses on the *ist D as well. I myself want to be able to decide which of my Pentax lenses I use on the *ist D. I am adult and can take my own decisions. Arnold Then most of your stuff will fit the *istD. You said in an earlier post that the you have a complete line-up of AF lenses. I can't help I find this continuous whining highly exaggregated. And irrational. Pentax just did what every other company is doing.
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
- Original Message - From: alexanderkrohe Subject: Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3 ... I can't help I find this continuous whining highly exaggregated. And irrational. Pentax just did what every other company is doing. First off, you are wrong. Canon digital is compatable with all EOS lenses and accessories. Secondly, even if you were correct, just because every other company is doing something doesn't make it right or desirable. William Robb
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
- Original Message - From: Pål Jensen Subject: Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3 That only stress the fact that the competition is fierce and that Pentax cannot build in compatibility with over 20 year old lenses. If Canon had bothered with FD compatibility on their DSLR's maybe Pentax would have bothered with K/M compatibility... Bullshit. There is no reason for Pentax not being able to maintain full system compatability. The reason for dropping it is economic, not technical. Interestingly, it seems they have better compatability with screw mount lenses (the Pentax equivalent of FD mount, in that it is the previous generation of mount) than they have with K mount. Dropping compatablity on the El Crappo Asterist won't matter, but not having it on the Asterist D might well cost them significant sales. William Robb
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
- Original Message - From: alexanderkrohe Subject: Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3 Moreover, those who have not bought a new lens in the last 20 years can hardly be called customers. Lovers who hardly buy something new are not customers. Customers who bought new lenses 20 years ago and have not needed to buy new equipment because the upgrade path in bodies has been smooth are suddenly no longer respected by the company they originally bought from. Pentax can't afford to piss of anyone, especially not customers who have a significant investment with them. Whether a person has bought new or used isn't germaine, they have still made a commitment to the company, and have made an investment in their equipment. William Robb
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Hi Everyone, I think I may have figured out Pentax logic behind the FA-J lenses. I'm certainly not agreeing with it of course. OK as everybody knows the *ist D has a 1.5 x magnification factor, so if you make FA-J lenses that are specifically designed for it, they don't have to be as sharp or as high quality optically around the edges, especially when it comes to an 18mm zoom that can save big bucks; Right? However nobody with an MZ-S, MZ-3 or an LX will buy an inferior FA-J lens without an aperture; Right? Pentax says that they will still make lenses with an aperture for those cameras, Right? They also say that the FA-J's are entry level lenses and the *ist is an entry level camera; Right? Maybe there is a method to the madness; Right? WRONG!!! A Fellow Pentaxian, Ryan __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Oh yes, I'll feel so much better knowing I'm using lenses specially designed for my $1500 camera that cost less than 1/10 as much as the body. Especially when I have lenses that should work that are better built and have superb optics. At 08:39 AM 6/10/03 -0700, you wrote: Hi Everyone, I think I may have figured out Pentax logic behind the FA-J lenses. I'm certainly not agreeing with it of course. OK as everybody knows the *ist D has a 1.5 x magnification factor, so if you make FA-J lenses that are specifically designed for it, they don't have to be as sharp or as high quality optically around the edges, especially when it comes to an 18mm zoom that can save big bucks; Right? However nobody with an MZ-S, MZ-3 or an LX will buy an inferior FA-J lens without an aperture; Right? Pentax says that they will still make lenses with an aperture for those cameras, Right? They also say that the FA-J's are entry level lenses and the *ist is an entry level camera; Right? Maybe there is a method to the madness; Right? WRONG!!! A Fellow Pentaxian, Ryan __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. --Groucho Marx
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 04:47:31 -0600 From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: alexanderkrohe Subject: Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3 ... I can't help I find this continuous whining highly exaggerated. And irrational. Pentax just did what every other company is doing. First off, you are wrong. Canon digital is compatable with all EOS lenses and accessories. I don't see the point here. The *istD is fully compatible with all lenses released after 1983 or so. In comparison the Canon Eos 10D is compatible with lenses made from 1986/1987 onward and totally incompatible with earlier (FD) lenses. Secondly, even if you were correct, just because every other company is doing something doesn't make it right or desirable. It didn't say it is desirable. But I think it was right for Canon to ditch the FD mount. They also betrayed the customer: They advertised their lens mount as a secure investment for the future (pointing at some unused levers on the lens mount) until one month before they ditched it (this is really true!). However, judging from Canon's present strong market position it is clear that this was the right decision. William Robb Good luck, Alexander __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 11:27:46 +0200 From: Arnold Stark [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Arnold Alexander, When I invested into new and old Pentax equipment I did so because of the compatibilty of the k-mount. I can feel with you, and I also agree to a certain degree. But I still think the compatibility within the Pentax system is still high compared to other manufacturers. Suddenly this compatibilty is reduced for effectively no particular reason at all. Pentax is NOT just doing what everybody else does: Pentax changed its mount already in 1975. They have advertised the compatibilty of the k-mount ever since the SFX. Now they are effectively changing their mount for the 2nd time - which other manufacturer changed their mount twice? IMO they made the just same changes that Nikon or Canon. But Pentax made more subsequent steps. Similar to Nikon I do not expect that Pentax will completely abandon compatibility. They will restrict full compatibility to more expensive lenses and cameras. BTW A system which *really* changed the mount twice was Mamiya (their 35mm system). Their ZEX system was way ahead of others at its time but it meant a second change in lens mount within 2 or 3 years. The ZEX mount was the first fully electronic lens-body interface. And even if they were doing like everybody else, this would not make their move any better. Everybody else doing something bad is no excuse for me doing so, too. Every company does what they think yields maximum profit. Judging from today's results it is right what Canon did in 1986 (ditching the FD mount). Yes, I can use my A, F and FA lenses on the *ist D, and even if there was full compatibilty they certainly match it much better than K-and M-series lenses. However, I still can not see why Pentax decides that I should NOT be able to sensibly use my older lenses on the *ist D as well. I myself want to be able to decide which of my Pentax lenses I use on the *ist D. I am adult and can take my own decisions. I understand that, I have four K-series lenses myself. However I seriously doubt that users of those lenses are a big market for the D-SLR (particularly as this means higher production costs, which all users have to pay). The high-class lenses of that vintage are quite rare (except the 28mm and 135mm lenses of course). For example: Since the 80s, when I bought into Pentax, I have a 30mm/2.8 K-series lens (a fine lens BTW). It's recent ebay price raised to about $350. That's twice the price of the new lens in those days and shows how rare this lens is. It is not a market. Also I doubt that lovers of such lenses are among the first who switch to digital. Arnold Enjoy, Alexander __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
BTW A system which *really* changed the mount twice was Mamiya (their 35mm system). Their ZEX system was way ahead of others at its time but it meant a second change in lens mount within 2 or 3 years. The ZEX mount was the first fully electronic lens-body interface. Mamiya changed their 35mm system mount more than twice. They used the 42mm screw mount through 1975, adding the XTL bayonet in 1971. The 1971 NC1000 had a different bayonet.The electronic ZE mount, not compatable with the NC mount appeared in 1980. Regards, Ed _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 16:29:04 -0500 From: Ed Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] BTW A system which *really* changed the mount twice was Mamiya (their 35mm system). Their ZEX system was way ahead of others at its time but it meant a second change in lens mount within 2 or 3 years. The ZEX mount was the first fully electronic lens-body interface. Mamiya changed their 35mm system mount more than twice. They used the 42mm screw mount through 1975, adding the XTL bayonet in 1971. The 1971 NC1000 had a different bayonet.The electronic ZE mount, not compatable with the NC mount appeared in 1980. Regards, Ed Thanks for pointing this out. BTW I believe the NC1000 appeared in 1978 (?) just two years before the ZE(X) mount. best wishes, Alexander __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Hallo Heiko, I hope you are right, but I fear, that I'm right. But now I just put my MZ-S and my limited lenses in a suit case and I start to a short holyday to dresden. Best regards Rüdiger Hi Rüdiger, on 09 Jun 03 you wrote in pentax.list: wait some more time to see the rest of the *ist lineup. I'm quite sure that we will see some positive surprises, too. From what is your hope. If they will save 5 Euro on their most expensive body and make the software in a way to prevent using K and M lenses and make the userinterface incompatibly to the MZ-S, why should the work in different way on a coming mid class SLR or high end D-SLR? The *ist is an entry level camera. The entry level models of the MZ- lineup had always a crippled mount (MZ-30/50/60) and nobody cared about that. We now have a special situation because the entry level model is the first one of the *ist series that has been released. And in addition the first DSLR will be released soon - based on similar technology as the *ist. The *istD is a special camera as it is the first DSLR of Pentax. The most important aims of this camera will be that it works competitive and that it can be released soon. I'm quite sure that Pentax has borrowed the crippled mount from the *ist as that was necessary to realize the release date in late summer. So the crippled mount of the *ist/*istD allows neither the conclusion that the future models will not nor that they will have a fully compatible mount. We just cannot say! In addition - there may be more options that we actually don't see. What about a whole new strategy with a crippled mount for the entry and maybe mid level and a new KAF3 mount with full compatibility and new features (IS/USM)? I could imaginge something like that, but keep in mind that Pentax is a small company in comparison to Canon. They have made a huge development effort this year: Optio 33L, Optio S, Optio 450, Optio 550 (still some more Optios to come ;-), *ist, *istD, three new lenses and maybe more to come. I really wonder how they do that. If you like Pentax and want to kep Pentax, then you have to be patient. If you want a complete IS/USM/DSLR system _now_, then just sell all Pentax stuff (I'll give some of your equipment a good home ;-)) and take a Canon 10D, a EOS30 and a pile of new AF lenses (no manual lenses at all...). I have decided to be patient (especially as this will result in a cheaper DSLR) and bought an Optio 550 which offers me lots of features to bridge the time... Cheers, Heiko
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Hi Rüdiger, on 09 Jun 03 you wrote in pentax.list: I hope you are right, but I fear, that I'm right. No, I will be right ;-) But now I just put my MZ-S and my limited lenses in a suit case and I start to a short holyday to dresden. That's the best cure. Enjoy your trip and the MZ-S kit. Cheers, Heiko
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Rüdiger wroter: Pentax will maybe gain some short time money and it will ruin in the end the whole company. A lot of my friends have bought Pentax, but I cannot recommend Pentax anymore. Because you can't use lenses older than 20 years on an entry level camera and a DSLR? Surpise! You can't do that on any other brand either! Pål
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Heiko wrote: In my eyes all theese products are entry level. Yes - the *istD is entry level as the D100 or 10D are. 2000,- is much money but it is the price to enter the DSLR market. High-end DSLRs are the Nikon D1 and Canon 1D. Pentax started out with the MD-S prototype that was built on a (semi)pro chassis. Meanwhile DSLR have migrated into price sensitive area fighting over amateurs and snapshooters (no offenses intended) money. Hence, like the competition, Pentax build their DSLR around the camera parts (electronic) of an entry level SLR in order to save cost and stay competitive. They have chosen a much simpler metering system that actually uses the digital, exact readout from the lenses. This is dirt cheap and more accurate. The MZ-S only use this electronic information for dataimprinting and finder display. Instead it relies on mechanical coupling in both lenses and bodies that needs to extremely accurately calibrated. This is what cost money. Although the mechanical transfer could be made extremely accurate, in real life there are variations. If you're ever shot test rolls on various apertures you'll experience exposure variations due to the nature of this system. These variations are usually trvivial but they are there. Pål
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Pål Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rüdiger wroter: Pentax will maybe gain some short time money and it will ruin in the end the whole company. A lot of my friends have bought Pentax, but I cannot recommend Pentax anymore. Because you can't use lenses older than 20 years on an entry level camera and a DSLR? Surpise! You can't do that on any other brand either! So you're saying now Pentax is no longer different from any other brand? And this is a good thing, I assume? -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
But, then the cameras will probably appeal to their PS customers of which they have millions. The strange thing is hobbies, as hobbies, seem to be dying out. Been in a so called hobby shop lately? The ones I have been in are more toy stores these days. Photography seems to be no different. We are a dying breed. Today's camera buyer wants snapshots of kids to send to grandma, snapshots of their vacations. Yes, those people have always been around, but the people who are interested in photography itself are fading out fast. Ciao, Graywolf http://pages.prodigy.net/graywolfphoto - Original Message - From: Rüdiger Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 4:35 AM Subject: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3 Hallo, the last three pentax low and high-end cameras (MZ-60, *ist, *istD) and the last three low and midclass lenses (FAJ 28-80, FAJ 70-300, FAJ 18-35) have something in common, the new Pentax mount standard KFA3. All new cameras and lenses will have this new mount. Special features: No aperture simulator No power zoom contacts (we will see no USM or IS, in the patents this contacts are always used) No measurement with K and M lenses Purpose: Preventing the user from using the aperture ring. Preventing from using old K und M lenses Preventig from using the new FAJ lenses on a LX, MX or even on a MZ-5n or MZ-S. Costumer benefit: None Benefit of Pentax Hope they will sell more lenses and more new bodies. They will not care anymore for costumers, who have spend a lot of money in Pentax gear. Future prospects Bad, Pentax user will switch to Canon to have compabilitty, USM, IS, full frame D-SLR, ...
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
I have to agree with all but one point, compatibility, but that shouldn't be an issue with anyone anymore. If you're a pro you or your organization can justify the expense of buying all new equipment. If you're an armature you won't buy anything expensive since it's more or less disposable and why waste money on something that will be obsoleted tomorrow. At 10:35 AM 6/9/03 +0200, you wrote: Hallo, the last three pentax low and high-end cameras (MZ-60, *ist, snip Costumer benefit: None Benefit of Pentax Hope they will sell more lenses and more new bodies. They will not care anymore for costumers, who have spend a lot of money in Pentax gear. Future prospects Bad, Pentax user will switch to Canon to have compabilitty, USM, IS, full frame D-SLR, ... Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. --Groucho Marx
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
You don't get the point these mounts don't have to be incompatible. There are no new features that require these changes. These cameras have been purposely built to be incompatible, obviously so. At 12:23 PM 6/9/03 +0200, you wrote: Hi Rüdiger, on 09 Jun 03 you wrote in pentax.list: wait some more time to see the rest of the *ist lineup. I'm quite sure that we will see some positive surprises, too. From what is your hope. If they will save 5 Euro on their most expensive body and make the software in a way to prevent using K and M lenses and make the userinterface incompatibly to the MZ-S, why should the work in different way on a coming mid class SLR or high end D-SLR? The *ist is an entry level camera. The entry level models of the MZ- lineup had always a crippled mount (MZ-30/50/60) and nobody cared about that. We now have a special situation because the entry level model is the first one of the *ist series that has been released. And in addition the first DSLR will be released soon - based on similar technology as the *ist. The *istD is a special camera as it is the first DSLR of Pentax. The most important aims of this camera will be that it works competitive and that it can be released soon. I'm quite sure that Pentax has borrowed the crippled mount from the *ist as that was necessary to realize the release date in late summer. So the crippled mount of the *ist/*istD allows neither the conclusion that the future models will not nor that they will have a fully compatible mount. We just cannot say! In addition - there may be more options that we actually don't see. What about a whole new strategy with a crippled mount for the entry and maybe mid level and a new KAF3 mount with full compatibility and new features (IS/USM)? I could imaginge something like that, but keep in mind that Pentax is a small company in comparison to Canon. They have made a huge development effort this year: Optio 33L, Optio S, Optio 450, Optio 550 (still some more Optios to come ;-), *ist, *istD, three new lenses and maybe more to come. I really wonder how they do that. If you like Pentax and want to kep Pentax, then you have to be patient. If you want a complete IS/USM/DSLR system _now_, then just sell all Pentax stuff (I'll give some of your equipment a good home ;-)) and take a Canon 10D, a EOS30 and a pile of new AF lenses (no manual lenses at all...). I have decided to be patient (especially as this will result in a cheaper DSLR) and bought an Optio 550 which offers me lots of features to bridge the time... Cheers, Heiko Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. --Groucho Marx
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Hi Boz, on 08 Jun 03 you wrote in pentax.list: Why are you so sure that the next ist body will have K/M support? I'm not sure. I wrote: So the crippled mount of the *ist/*istD allows neither the conclusion that the future models will not nor that they will have a fully compatible mount. We just cannot say! What makes you sure that the next ist will be higher positioned than the *ist ? - The MZ-5n/3 have to be replaced. - The *ist was communicated as entry level. - The *ist is quite cheap. The bottom will be the MZ-60 for a while, but at the moment there is no need for a lower featured *ist. Cheers, Heiko
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Hi Bojidar, on 08 Jun 03 you wrote in pentax.list: In my eyes all theese products are entry level. Yes - the *istD is entry level as the D100 or 10D are. 2000,- is much money but it is the price to enter the DSLR market. High-end DSLRs are the Nikon D1 and Canon 1D. To Canon and Nikon EUR 2000 may be entry-level but not to Pentax. I would define entry-level by the market segment the camera competes in and not by the number of cameras a manufacturer offers. Why didn't they bring the MZ-S to the market? Because they were smarter than Contax? Probably because they didn't think that anyone will spend EUR 7000 on a Pentax DSLR. Yes. That's a very small pro market that is ruled by Canon and Nikon. Why waste power and money in that market segment? It's much easier to earn money with cheaper cameras sold in larger numbers. I submit that the *ist D will be entry-level, mid-level and top-level for a very long time. In fact, by the time it comes in the shops, the Canon 300D might already be out, and chances are that it will be just as small and light as the *ist D. Maybe, maybe not. Who cares? I want to buy an affordable Pentax DSLR, but I'm not in a hurry. Let's wait and see. Cheers, Heiko
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Bojidar wrote: To Canon and Nikon EUR 2000 may be entry-level but not to Pentax. This entry level for all. 35mm slr entry level may start at $150. For DSLR it starts at whatever the Canon EOS 10D sells for at present. Pentax want to compete where the volume for DSLR's are and this is the entry level. With the *ist D they have platform for competitive DSLR's. Why didn't they bring the MZ-S to the market? Probably because they didn't think that anyone will spend EUR 7000 on a Pentax DSLR. It was because nobody would pay that kind of money on a full frame 6Mp DSLR from anyone as long a small frame 6mp could be had much cheaper. Look at the Contax. I submit that the *ist D will be entry-level, mid-level and top-level for a very long time. In fact, by the time it comes in the shops, the Canon 300D might already be out, and chances are that it will be just as small and light as the *ist D. That only stress the fact that the competition is fierce and that Pentax cannot build in compatibility with over 20 year old lenses. If Canon had bothered with FD compatibility on their DSLR's maybe Pentax would have bothered with K/M compatibility... Pål
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Boz wrote: Does this mean that Pentax thought that there is no market for the MZ-S? If yes, why would they ever release a higher-end body than the *ist D? Prices on DSLR's are to large extent dependent on the sensor cost. Sensors cost and performance is in constant flux. Theres no lesson to be learned here except that the MD-S wasn't competitive enough and that the *ist D is designed to just that. Is this not a reason to throw away the K/M compatibility in the trash can? I think, yes, and this is why I am certain that Pentax will do it (in fact, they have already done it). At the same time oyu claim that the next camera will be the great one, and that it will support K/M lenses. Something does not fit here... I don't claim anything as I don't know. What I claim is that I've been told that Pentax have no plans to remove the aperture ring from their higher end lenses and that the FA-J and *ist's are entry level products. This has been said by Pentax engineers and until similar credible sources state otherwise, these are the lines my opinions will follow. Of course a might be told bullshit but I don't pretend to know anything by first hand knowledge but we can always speculate. However, to my mind, since all worthwhile current Pentax lenses have aperture rings (close to 60 in number), I seriously doubt that the function of the said ring will dissapear anytime soon unless they plane to discontinue all of them in the next few months. Of course they may stop K/M compatibility at a certain point. Maybe even now. They have to at some point. However, Pentax have made a host of great cameras that take those lenses, the latest the MZ-S, and these owners certainly had their fill. The fact that they may not be able to use them on a DSLR isn't the cathastrophe it is made out to be. Pål
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
I'd like to agree with you but as a software engineer I spend a lot of time working with things and making things that were incompatible because marketing thought they should be that way. At 07:20 PM 6/9/03 +0200, you wrote: Hi Peter, on 09 Jun 03 you wrote in pentax.list: You don't get the point these mounts don't have to be incompatible. You are right, but you didn't got my point, too: I only want to say that there is no reason to think, that this new mount will be on all next Pentax (D)SLRs. We simply don't know. I'm also dissappointed about this mount and a little bit angry about the poor Pentax communication. But I don't see any reason to be as pesimistic and fatalistic as many others around here. There are no new features that require these changes. These cameras have been purposely built to be incompatible, obviously so. Right. OTOH - there might be technical reasons that we don't know. Pal has written some interesting point concerning the communication between the lens and the mount. It seems, that the digital data trasfer via the mount contacts is much easier and more exact than using the mechanical coupling. Cheers, Heiko Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. --Groucho Marx
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Peter wrote: You keep missing the point, Pentax has always been different. If they change to be just like everyone else then why be loyal to them. I have some sympathy with this view. However, I don't consider compatibility with 20+ year old lenses to add to this difference. I think Pentax need to be different in a more substantial way in order to attract customers. I'm not convinced any of the *ists are the right medicine but that has nothing to do with lens mounts. 99% of those who come into a shop to consider the *ists don't own K or M lenses and this probably what lies behind all this. The rality that some older equipment is commercially obsolete. Pål
Re: Hobbyism (Was Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3 )
On June 9, 2003 01:46 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Our hobbies are our toys. But I do agree that many have disintegreated into things to set on the shelf rather than build and work with. And now they're all consultants to help you develop your hobby! I disagree. You're just seeing the normal boom bust. When it's a real hobby then you've got a certain type of person involved. It grows. It becomes popular and you start to attract a wider group. Finally it gets hyped and you'll see a bunch who have no real interest. Then you'll have the bust. I know plenty of people who setup darkrooms during the 70's and 80s. It was faddish. Many stopped and moved onto the latest fad. Others moved further into the thing. Nick
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
On the contrary: Especially as the competition is fierce Pentax cannot afford to drop compatibilty for no particular reason at all. I can understand dropping the aperture ring on cheap consumer zooms. Dropping the 5-20$ aperture simulator on a 1500$ camera already makes very little sense. Dropping the aperture simulator AND not allowing stop-down metering with old lenses makes no sense at all and doesn't save money, it only puts off old and new customers. Arnold Pål Jensen schrieb: That only stress the fact that the competition is fierce and that Pentax cannot build in compatibility with over 20 year old lenses. If Canon had bothered with FD compatibility on their DSLR's maybe Pentax would have bothered with K/M compatibility...
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Arnold wrote: I am sick of this those who have not bought a new lens in the last 20 years can hardly be called customers. I have spent the equivalent of several thousand dollars on new Pentax lenses in the past 6 years, I am a customer, even if have bought even more used stuff. I feel neglected, and I guess I am not the only one. You have my sympathy on that one. Perhaps we should have added that there are exceptions. However, if you have been following this list awhile you'll have noticed that there are lots of people who haven't bought anything in 20 years, or ever, and who joins the whining. I for one, don't think Pentax have abandoned K and M compatibility for good. Just that they have adandoned it on products that sell first and foremost on price. Pål
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Arnold wrote: On the contrary: Especially as the competition is fierce Pentax cannot afford to drop compatibilty for no particular reason at all. I believe they can beacuse this compatibility is important to so few people that it doesn't matter. Pål
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Alexander wrote: You make a mistake here. The camera is targeted towards a completely new market. Yep. All facets of digital is basically a new market that add to the film market. It isn't like everyone who buys the D10 are sitting on huge inventory of Canon glass. The majority are digital shooters who have hardly ever owned a serious film camera. Pål
Re: Hobbyism (Was Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3 )
Well, I kind of agree with both of you. In the 50's and early 60's, my dad built his own speaker boxes from plans in a stereo mag, and put drivers in that he bought at a hi fi shop. For what he paid, and compared to much of the crap out there that was affordable, they sounded pretty good. He also built his first stereo amp from Heathkit. Again, sounded way better than the Fleetwood mono console that we previously had. But hell, within a couple of years it was almost unlistenable compared to affordable decent stuff that was out there. That's what happens: the serious hobbyists get into the game of building for a few friends, then marketing to the world. I bet Paul Klipsch built his first set of Klipschorns for himself... But on the whole, I agree with Collin. Since for me photography is a hobby, and likely always will be, I'm completely happy shooting with 20 year old bodies and lenses, since they serve my needs, and take damn good photos. I realize that the limiting factor is behind the viewfinder vbg. It's much more cost effective for me to spend my money on film, and learn to take better photos than it is to become an equipment junkie - I'll just be taking bad pics with newer equipment, is all. If I won a million dollars would I buy camera and stereo equipment? Yup. Would it be the latest and greatest high-tech auto-everything cameras and lenses? Likely not. A few lenses to extend my range at both wide and long ends. A few bodies (an LX or two?). Maybe Medium Format SLR's. A few Leica M mount lenses to throw on the CL (which I wouldn't have to sell g), and maybe an M7 body or two still dreaming. Okay, I'd buy a digital body and lenses (lowest on my priority list, to be sure). It's a hobby. It's supposed to be fun. Thanks for the reminder. cheers, frank Nick Zentena wrote: On June 9, 2003 01:46 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Our hobbies are our toys. But I do agree that many have disintegreated into things to set on the shelf rather than build and work with. And now they're all consultants to help you develop your hobby! I disagree. You're just seeing the normal boom bust. When it's a real hobby then you've got a certain type of person involved. It grows. It becomes popular and you start to attract a wider group. Finally it gets hyped and you'll see a bunch who have no real interest. Then you'll have the bust. I know plenty of people who setup darkrooms during the 70's and 80s. It was faddish. Many stopped and moved onto the latest fad. Others moved further into the thing. Nick -- The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert Oppenheimer
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
Why are you in such a bad mood? Enjoy your excellent Pentax equipment and wait some more time to see the rest of the *ist lineup. I'm quite sure that we will see some positive surprises, too. Surprise, no doubt. +ve? We'll c. :-) regards, Alan Chan _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
why waste money on something that will be obsoleted tomorrow. Because one will not live pass today. :-) regards, Alan Chan _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
RE: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3
I hope not. I have never been impressed by small, light cameras. I like them to be sturdy, heavy, and large enough to handle well. In fact, by the time it comes in the shops, the Canon 300D might already be out, and chances are that it will be just as small and light as the *ist D. Cheers, Boz
Re: Hobbyism (Was Re: Pentax proudly presents a new lens mount, the KAF3 )
On June 9, 2003 06:13 pm, frank theriault wrote: But on the whole, I agree with Collin. Since for me photography is a hobby, and likely always will be, I'm completely happy shooting with 20 year old bodies and lenses, since they serve my needs, and take damn good photos. I realize that the limiting factor is behind the viewfinder vbg. It's much more cost effective for me to spend my money on film, and learn to take better photos than it is to become an equipment junkie - I'll just be taking bad pics with newer equipment, is all. You're the first type. Some one who gets into a hobby because they enjoy it. Not because some magazine/tv show etc told them it was the right thing. I'm just saying that type of person [me included] are still out there. The people who are putting the toys on the shelf are for the most part different. They'll move onto the next fad. Be it pot bellied pigs or something else. That they've quit the hobby doesn't mean the hobby has disappeared. Nick
