Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
I wouldn't look much into this. Designing full frame 50mm and 100mm lenses is easy, so why would anyone make a aps format specific version of these. All reduced frame (APS) lenses from all manufacturers (except Olympus) thus far have been wider than 18mm. Canon 18-55 Pentax 16-45 Pentax 14 Nikon 10.5 Nikon 12-24 Nikon 18-70 Nikon 17-55 On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 23:37, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > See below from Boz's site. Does the aperture ring and 35mm coverage mean that Pentax > is planning a 'full frame' pro-ish digital, why else would the new lenses have such > coverage? > > 'According to DPreview, Pentax has announced two new and exiting lenses: smc > Pentax-D FA Macro 100mm F2.8 and smc Pentax-D FA Macro 50mm F2.8. Both are part of a > new lens series with two very exciting aspects: an aperture ring and coverage for > the full 35 mm image circle. It seems that the "DA" series (no aperture ring, > APS-sensor coverage) aims at low-budget customers whereas the "D FA" is for the > professionals and enthusiasts.' >
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
Missed that reply, must be that name and my filter. ;) There are certain fixed costs that some folks that are not in the silicon business do not seem to understand. One is the cost of a raw wafer of silicon. The process guys have squeezed all they could and what we have now is pretty close to minimum; volume (higher mass production) is not going to change this much, its pretty much already mass produced, as you said. The second misunderstood problem is one of defects. You get a certain density of defects per unit area, they have pretty much squeezed this down as far as they could. So because of the chip area and laws of probability, a FF sensor is going to be much more expensive than an APS sized sensor. Unless a fundamental discovery is made in manufacturing that reduces the cost of raw silicon, or massively reduces the defect rate, we are stuck with real expensive FF sensor chips for a long time. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: "Antonio" Subject: Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses Nonsense, of course it will get cheaper. Mass production. Are they not already mass producing the things? William Robb
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
- Original Message - From: "Antonio" Subject: Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses > Nonsense, of course it will get cheaper. Mass production. Are they not already mass producing the things? William Robb
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
Nonsense, of course it will get cheaper. Mass production. A/. On 12/8/04 10:54 pm, "Gonz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > think the chip will cost at least $1500 for a long time (very long).
OT: Merc [Was: Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses]
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Alan Chan wrote: > >And that's the problem. How to make it go mass market ;-) That's the same > >as > >you would like Mercedes cars to go mass market, hoping that then their > >price > >will drop to acceptable levels ;-) > >-- > >Best Regards > >Sylwek > I think they have done that with C class? Here in Vancouver, they are > everywhere... (Chinese always have a thing for Mercedes ) :-) Very few (if any) Mercs are as well-built as they used to. The UK Consumer Association says so, as well as widely published reliability surveys. It's the only way to compete. Kostas
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
Additionally I can see the Full frame sensor 35mm replacing med format digital in the short term. I still think there's some chance that Pentax will build a 35mm full frame sensor camera with the ability to mount either 67 or 645 lenses as well as Ka mount lenses nativly. Butch Black wrote: Antonio wrote: Yes, but what would be the point of supporting two different sensor formats in the same SLR body design? For those who shoot a lot of telephoto but little wide angle the APS sized chip has an advantage with it's smaller AOV. 6 MP is proving adequate for many consumers. Assuming that a FF sensor will have significantly more MP then an APS sized chip, the APS sized chip would have faster write time to the media card and would store more images at any given resolution. The full frame would have a higher resolution and better enlargeability all other things being equal. It strikes me as not dissimilar to buying a car. I can get the model with a 4 cyl or 6 cyl. The 4 will give me better gas mileage, the 6 better performance. I make the decision based on my needs. Butch
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
I think they have done that with C class? Here in Vancouver, they are everywhere... (Chinese always have a thing for Mercedes ) :-) Alan Chan http://www.pbase.com/wlachan And that's the problem. How to make it go mass market ;-) That's the same as you would like Mercedes cars to go mass market, hoping that then their price will drop to acceptable levels ;-) -- Best Regards Sylwek _ Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft® SmartScreen Technology http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
Way to go Pentax! Now, wouldn't that be great (full frame)! Jens Jens Bladt mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hjem.get2net.dk/bladt -Oprindelig meddelelse- Fra: Alan Chan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sendt: 12. august 2004 11:37 Til: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Emne: RE: 35mm coverage of new lenses I personally believe everyone will go full frame eventually, it's just a matter of time. Alan Chan http://www.pbase.com/wlachan >See below from Boz's site. Does the aperture ring and 35mm coverage mean >that Pentax is planning a 'full frame' pro-ish digital, why else would the >new lenses have such coverage? > >'According to DPreview, Pentax has announced two new and exiting lenses: >smc Pentax-D FA Macro 100mm F2.8 and smc Pentax-D FA Macro 50mm F2.8. Both >are part of a new lens series with two very exciting aspects: an aperture >ring and coverage for the full 35 mm image circle. It seems that the "DA" >series (no aperture ring, APS-sensor coverage) aims at low-budget customers >whereas the "D FA" is for the professionals and enthusiasts.' > >AB _ Powerful Parental Controls Let your child discover the best the Internet has to offer. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=htt p://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
Antonio wrote: Yes, but what would be the point of supporting two different sensor formats in the same SLR body design? For those who shoot a lot of telephoto but little wide angle the APS sized chip has an advantage with it's smaller AOV. 6 MP is proving adequate for many consumers. Assuming that a FF sensor will have significantly more MP then an APS sized chip, the APS sized chip would have faster write time to the media card and would store more images at any given resolution. The full frame would have a higher resolution and better enlargeability all other things being equal. It strikes me as not dissimilar to buying a car. I can get the model with a 4 cyl or 6 cyl. The 4 will give me better gas mileage, the 6 better performance. I make the decision based on my needs. Butch
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
- Original Message - From: "graywolf" Subject: Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses > Probably they were following this list and the hunderds of posts saying that no > one would ever pay that much for a camera. Those were the days when I had to > preach the benefits of digital, just as I now have to do for film now. Such is life. More likely they couldn't secure reliable full frame sensors in sufficient quantities. The Contax that was going to use the same chip failed miserably, from what I read it had atrocious imaging capabilities. William Robb
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
Probably they were following this list and the hunderds of posts saying that no one would ever pay that much for a camera. Those were the days when I had to preach the benefits of digital, just as I now have to do for film now. Such is life. -- Tom C wrote: Based on the current prices of FF DLSR's, It's pretty obvious Pentax blundered in a big way with the MZ-D. Particularly from the standpoint of disappointing eager customers. Maybe they are simply holding that design in abeyance until pricepoints make it a higher volume seller. Tom C. From: Arnold Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:43:10 +0200 Obviously full frame coverage has two advantages: 1.) Future Pentax DSLRs are not to be limited to APS sized sensors at a time when larger sensors become cheap enough (at that time such DSLRs need not necessarily be "pro-ish"); 2.) The new lenses are attractive to the owners of analogue SLRs and those who use both ASLRs and DSRLS. Arnold [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: See below from Boz's site. Does the aperture ring and 35mm coverage mean that Pentax is planning a 'full frame' pro-ish digital, why else would the new lenses have such coverage? -- graywolf http://graywolfphoto.com/graywolf.html
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
I doubt the MZ-D design will be resurrected. I would expect a whole new design. There are always advances in manufacturing techniques which the older design won't accommodate. Tom C wrote: Finally Pentax makes some sense... at least on paper... I've thought the DA APS-sized lenses were in some ways ridiculous... I'd rather buy a regular wider lens now that gives a sufficient AOV on the *ist D than an APS-sized lens that will not be as wide when/if a FF sensor Pentax becomes available. If that camera will even be affordable... Based on the current prices of FF DLSR's, It's pretty obvious Pentax blundered in a big way with the MZ-D. Particularly from the standpoint of disappointing eager customers. Maybe they are simply holding that design in abeyance until pricepoints make it a higher volume seller. Tom C. From: Arnold Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:43:10 +0200 Obviously full frame coverage has two advantages: 1.) Future Pentax DSLRs are not to be limited to APS sized sensors at a time when larger sensors become cheap enough (at that time such DSLRs need not necessarily be "pro-ish"); 2.) The new lenses are attractive to the owners of analogue SLRs and those who use both ASLRs and DSRLS. Arnold [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: See below from Boz's site. Does the aperture ring and 35mm coverage mean that Pentax is planning a 'full frame' pro-ish digital, why else would the new lenses have such coverage?
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
Rob Studdert wrote on 12.08.04 14:57: > I've got pretty much all the glass I need, I have cash to spend on a new high > spec body (FF preferably) to use my glass on. I've promised myself not to get > sucked into buying APS format only lenses (unless of course they produced > something I couldn't live without :-) Let's hope there will be higher spec body (preferably with FF ;-) I won't buy it, but it will make good things for Pentax reputation as serious photo company ;-) -- Best Regards Sylwek
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
J. C. O'Connell wrote on 12.08.04 14:46: > the 14/n is 13Mpixel, none of the APS are even close to that > so the 3K difference is more than just FF, its much higher > image quality too. Yes and no :-) Most people can't afford this and will choose something much cheaper with quality satisfying for them.Image quality-wise - Kodak has much worse noise above iso400 than almost any APS CCD, and many modern wide angle lenses, even equipped with ED glass, suffer from high level of chromatic aberrations. So there is always trade-off. Resolution-wise there is no doubt that such a FF sensor delivers higher quality... -- Best Regards Sylwek
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
On 12 Aug 2004 at 14:26, Sylwester Pietrzyk wrote: > Right, as long as price difference between FF and APS sensor cameras is > lower than price of wide angle lens(es) dedicated for smaller CCD. So far > price difference between the cheapest FF camera (Kodak 14/N) and based on > the same analog body (F80) APS CCD camera is roughly 3000$. So you can buy > for about 1000USD Nikon DX 12-24/4 dedicated for smaller sensor lens (18-36 mm > equiv) and still have 2000USD left for other lenses :-) I've got pretty much all the glass I need, I have cash to spend on a new high spec body (FF preferably) to use my glass on. I've promised myself not to get sucked into buying APS format only lenses (unless of course they produced something I couldn't live without :-) Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
RE: 35mm coverage of new lenses
the 14/n is 13Mpixel, none of the APS are even close to that so the 3K difference is more than just FF, its much higher image quality too. JCO -Original Message- From: Sylwester Pietrzyk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 8:26 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses Antonio wrote on 12.08.04 14:13: > Plus, you have to look at the price of lenses for APS sensors v the > price of FF lenses. APS doesnt look so cheap when you can pick up nice > K mount lenses on ebay for a steal. Not to mention all the existing > Pentax K-mount owners who will find a very easy upgrade path to > ditital with FF. Right, as long as price difference between FF and APS sensor cameras is lower than price of wide angle lens(es) dedicated for smaller CCD. So far price difference between the cheapest FF camera (Kodak 14/N) and based on the same analog body (F80) APS CCD camera is roughly 3000$. So you can buy for about 1000USD Nikon DX 12-24/4 dedicated for smaller sensor lens (18-36 mm equiv) and still have 2000USD left for other lenses :-) -- Best Regards Sylwek
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
Antonio wrote on 12.08.04 14:13: > Plus, you have to look at the price of lenses for APS sensors v the price of > FF lenses. APS doesnt look so cheap when you can pick up nice K mount lenses > on ebay for a steal. Not to mention all the existing Pentax K-mount owners > who will find a very easy upgrade path to ditital with FF. Right, as long as price difference between FF and APS sensor cameras is lower than price of wide angle lens(es) dedicated for smaller CCD. So far price difference between the cheapest FF camera (Kodak 14/N) and based on the same analog body (F80) APS CCD camera is roughly 3000$. So you can buy for about 1000USD Nikon DX 12-24/4 dedicated for smaller sensor lens (18-36 mm equiv) and still have 2000USD left for other lenses :-) -- Best Regards Sylwek
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
Plus, you have to look at the price of lenses for APS sensors v the price of FF lenses. APS doesnt look so cheap when you can pick up nice K mount lenses on ebay for a steal. Not to mention all the existing Pentax K-mount owners who will find a very easy upgrade path to ditital with FF. Antonio On 12/8/04 1:31 pm, "J. C. O'Connell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You are overlooking the fact that once they BOTH > get "cheap enough" then the savings of APS sensor > gets smaller and smaller to the point that no one > will want it if the FF is only a little more in > absolute dollars. > JCO
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
Well you could easily have different prifce points within a FF line of sensors/cameras. It could be argued in fact that price to the manufacturer or supporting two very similar chip formats would be a point against this. As to APS not being a diffferent medium - we have already seen that you need speical APS sensor optimized glasss for this format given the crop factor, so the distinction arelady does exist. Admitedly the differennces are not as great as with film formats in the past but stillthey do exist. Wide angle lenses are a case in point. Antonio On 12/8/04 12:28 pm, "Sylwester Pietrzyk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Price. If APS DSLR will be let's say 500$ less than FF one in future, then > it will sell much better and will bring more profits to company. This is not > another medium like in case of APS film, which required you to buy dedicated > films and looking for supporting its labs. The only difference is in picture > quality, but most customers are satisfied with what they get in 6MPix APS > sensors.
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
If Pentax can sell new lenses to both Film and Computer users for a mere $10 per pro-grade lens, why the heck not? If film is going to be around for a few more years, esp. b&w, then it seems a small investment to maintain a marketshare that the others have completely abandoned. Pentax getting new film body sales pretty much to themselves. Sounds like a pretty decent business decision to me. Not the best decision they've ever made, but a good one. Sincerely, C. Brendemuehl --- "You impress at a distance, but you impact a life up close. The closer the relationship the greater the impact." -- Howard Hendricks ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web!
RE: 35mm coverage of new lenses
At this point I doubt that Pentax has specific plans to build a FF DSLR, but I'm sure they are trying to make sure they don't paint themselves into a corner, so to speak, and leave themselves unable to do so in the future. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 12:37 AM To: pentax-discuss Subject: 35mm coverage of new lenses See below from Boz's site. Does the aperture ring and 35mm coverage mean that Pentax is planning a 'full frame' pro-ish digital, why else would the new lenses have such coverage? 'According to DPreview, Pentax has announced two new and exiting lenses: smc Pentax-D FA Macro 100mm F2.8 and smc Pentax-D FA Macro 50mm F2.8. Both are part of a new lens series with two very exciting aspects: an aperture ring and coverage for the full 35 mm image circle. It seems that the "DA" series (no aperture ring, APS-sensor coverage) aims at low-budget customers whereas the "D FA" is for the professionals and enthusiasts.' AB -- Whatever you Wanadoo: http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/ This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at: http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
J. C. O'Connell wrote on 12.08.04 13:31: > You are overlooking the fact that once they BOTH > get "cheap enough" then the savings of APS sensor > gets smaller and smaller to the point that no one > will want it if the FF is only a little more in > absolute dollars. You are right, but when will it happen??? Right now prices of APS sensors fall more rapidly than ever due to increased sales, while FF cameras sales doesn't increase... And before the difference in price would be meaningless, there would be too many ASP CCD DSRLRs sold, often bought with reduced circle lenses in kit to ignore them. Yeah, owners of larger film formats laughed on 35mm film and its future when it was introduced before II WW. Look what we have now... And the same can happen with DSLRs :-) -- Best Regards Sylwek
RE: 35mm coverage of new lenses
You are overlooking the fact that once they BOTH get "cheap enough" then the savings of APS sensor gets smaller and smaller to the point that no one will want it if the FF is only a little more in absolute dollars. JCO -Original Message- From: Sylwester Pietrzyk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 5:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses Alan Chan wrote on 12.08.04 11:39: > Never say never. Who would think we could have Pentium 4 & all those > cool 3D games now when we were using 8088. :-) I have never said never ;-) Only simple truth that when FF sensors become less expensive then APS ones will be even cheaper than former ones and thus more popular. I presume you don't imply that FF sensors will ever have price level of APS ones? ;-) -- Best Regards Sylwek
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
it also gives them a way to drop the film body line without losing their users completely. film camera sales in Japan are down 50% from last year with a larger drop in P&S cameras than SLR, but that's still over 40% for SLR film bodies. Pentax's market share dropped 2% down to about 7% of film camera sales in Japan. by the numbers, that meant that Pentax sold about 100K film cameras of all types in Japan in the past year. Herb... - Original Message - From: "Arnold Stark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 2:43 AM Subject: Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses > Obviously full frame coverage has two advantages: > > 1.) Future Pentax DSLRs are not to be limited to APS sized sensors at a > time when larger sensors become cheap enough (at that time such DSLRs > need not necessarily be "pro-ish"); > > 2.) The new lenses are attractive to the owners of analogue SLRs and > those who use both ASLRs and DSRLS.
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
Antonio wrote on 12.08.04 12:02: > Yes, but what would be the point of supporting two different sensor formats > in the same SLR body design? Price. If APS DSLR will be let's say 500$ less than FF one in future, then it will sell much better and will bring more profits to company. This is not another medium like in case of APS film, which required you to buy dedicated films and looking for supporting its labs. The only difference is in picture quality, but most customers are satisfied with what they get in 6MPix APS sensors. My bet is that APS sensor based cameras will be more popular and cheaper, while FF will be for pros and demanding amateurs. And althought price of FF will fall in future it will be always significantly greater than this of APS sensor DSLRs. -- Best Regards Sylwek
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
Good point, my money is on FF only in the end. APS sensors in P&S A. On 12/8/04 12:05 pm, "Alan Chan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The problem is K mount was designed for 24x36mm in the 1st place. There is a > limit on how small they can make the DA lenses because of that. > > Alan Chan > http://www.pbase.com/wlachan > >> Yes, but what would be the point of supporting two different sensor formats >> in the same SLR body design? > > _ > MSN® Calendar keeps you organized and takes the effort out of scheduling > get-togethers. > http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http: > //hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines > Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the > first two months FREE*. >
Re: 35mm coverage of new lenses
The problem is K mount was designed for 24x36mm in the 1st place. There is a limit on how small they can make the DA lenses because of that. Alan Chan http://www.pbase.com/wlachan Yes, but what would be the point of supporting two different sensor formats in the same SLR body design? _ MSN® Calendar keeps you organized and takes the effort out of scheduling get-togethers. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=http://hotmail.com/enca&HL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN® Premium right now and get the first two months FREE*.
