Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
I sit down and plan all my shots inside by the fire. When I've decided what I'm going to do I put on two pairs of long woollen underwear. A denim shirt, a jersey and two pairs of woollen socks. A quilted snowsuit goes over the top. Finally a pair of boots with woollen liners and a fur hat. I usually wear thin cotton gloves with ordinary, also quite thin, leather gloves over them. I can stand 20 - 30 minutes if there's no wind. The camera - a plastic P30t - seems unaffected. It will work for as long as it takes my fingers to become too cold to operate the buttons. I stop now and again and warm my hands under my arms. One may sweat inside the layers, but fingers soon become useless. Most of the heat loss takes place when handing the metal tripod. I have an idea there may be such things as battery heated gloves (as there are socks) and I'm going to try to find out if they exist. But I'm betting they'll be too thick. It was -27C when I took some shots of tree tops a few weeks ago. I had a friend who used to take pictures of the heavens through a 14 Celestron using a Nikon body. He kept an external battery pack in his pocket and stayed outside for hours - but not when it was really cold. By the way - how on earth can you stay outdoors for 2 hours at -40C? Don (its only -24C this morning) Dr E D F Williams http://personal.inet.fi/cool/don.williams Author's Web Site and Photo Gallery Updated: March 30, 2002 - Original Message - From: Malcolm Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 9:21 PM Subject: RE: Pish-posh and balderdash William Robb wrote: The silver oxide batteries that power the LX will crap out after about an hour at -40ºC, and you lose metering and slow speeds. The shutter on my LX continued to work at -40ºC for over two hours, giving times that were reliable enough for Kodachrome slide film. I gave up before the camera did when I cold tested the thing. Thanks Bill, Now I know what my LXs will cope with! However, at such low temperatures, my nose will kept be warm under the blankets! Malcolm
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
Yes. At 02:32 PM 12/31/2002 -0800, you wrote: Many years ago, someone told me that brown belts make better karate instructors than black belts because the brown belts still remember and can still describe what they do. For the black belts, on the other hand, the techniques have become instinctive, and the beginners' details now seem hard to explain, since they've been absorbed into muscle memory. The black belts see the bigger picture, the goal of winning the bout, and don't need to think consciously about their stance, etc. In the same way, experienced, skilled, photographers know what looks right, and don't need to think about beginners' guidelines anymore. Does anyone else see it this way? Pat White Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. --Groucho Marx
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
Really good insulated clothing, and don't stand in one place to long you might freeze to the ground. At 10:23 AM 1/2/2003 +0200, you wrote: I sit down and plan all my shots inside by the fire. When I've decided what I'm going to do I put on two pairs of long woollen underwear. A denim shirt, a jersey and two pairs of woollen socks. A quilted snowsuit goes over the top. Finally a pair of boots with woollen liners and a fur hat. I usually wear thin cotton gloves with ordinary, also quite thin, leather gloves over them. I can stand 20 - 30 minutes if there's no wind. The camera - a plastic P30t - seems unaffected. It will work for as long as it takes my fingers to become too cold to operate the buttons. I stop now and again and warm my hands under my arms. One may sweat inside the layers, but fingers soon become useless. Most of the heat loss takes place when handing the metal tripod. I have an idea there may be such things as battery heated gloves (as there are socks) and I'm going to try to find out if they exist. But I'm betting they'll be too thick. It was -27C when I took some shots of tree tops a few weeks ago. I had a friend who used to take pictures of the heavens through a 14 Celestron using a Nikon body. He kept an external battery pack in his pocket and stayed outside for hours - but not when it was really cold. By the way - how on earth can you stay outdoors for 2 hours at -40C? Don (its only -24C this morning) Dr E D F Williams http://personal.inet.fi/cool/don.williams Author's Web Site and Photo Gallery Updated: March 30, 2002 - Original Message - From: Malcolm Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 9:21 PM Subject: RE: Pish-posh and balderdash William Robb wrote: The silver oxide batteries that power the LX will crap out after about an hour at -40ºC, and you lose metering and slow speeds. The shutter on my LX continued to work at -40ºC for over two hours, giving times that were reliable enough for Kodachrome slide film. I gave up before the camera did when I cold tested the thing. Thanks Bill, Now I know what my LXs will cope with! However, at such low temperatures, my nose will kept be warm under the blankets! Malcolm Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. --Groucho Marx
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
- Original Message - From: Dr E D F Williams Subject: Re: Pish-posh and balderdash Try a wooden tripod. They are not as cold to handle as metal. My cold weather closthing is insulated (thermal) underwear and socks, then heavy fleece pants and jacket (from Mountain Equipment Co-op, the heaviest they sell), nylon wind pants, heavy socks over the insulated ones, boots rated to -50ºC, a 5 lb goose down parka (Canada geese are good for something, you just have to kill them), a touquelike garment that covers the entire head like a hood and can be tied down to the point there is just a window for the eyes, and the hood for the parka. Two pairs of gloves, one thin for when I am operating the equipment, and a thicker pair that goes over the thin ones for when I am not. I can also stick my hands in my pockets to warm them if need be. You don't have to move very much in that kind of clothing to be warm at any temperature. Lots of layers, and a lot of bulk to keep dead air as thick as possible is the key. The nylon shell keeps wind out, which adds tremendously to the insulation value of whats underneath. William Robb I sit down and plan all my shots inside by the fire. When I've decided what I'm going to do I put on two pairs of long woollen underwear. A denim shirt, a jersey and two pairs of woollen socks. A quilted snowsuit goes over the top. Finally a pair of boots with woollen liners and a fur hat. I usually wear thin cotton gloves with ordinary, also quite thin, leather gloves over them. I can stand 20 - 30 minutes if there's no wind. The camera - a plastic P30t - seems unaffected. It will work for as long as it takes my fingers to become too cold to operate the buttons. I stop now and again and warm my hands under my arms. One may sweat inside the layers, but fingers soon become useless. Most of the heat loss takes place when handing the metal tripod. I have an idea there may be such things as battery heated gloves (as there are socks) and I'm going to try to find out if they exist. But I'm betting they'll be too thick. It was -27C when I took some shots of tree tops a few weeks ago. I had a friend who used to take pictures of the heavens through a 14 Celestron using a Nikon body. He kept an external battery pack in his pocket and stayed outside for hours - but not when it was really cold. By the way - how on earth can you stay outdoors for 2 hours at -40C?
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
John wrote: Photographers come from many different backgrounds. But there are really only two; the technician and the artist. Not really, There are also everything in between. I don't think you can really separate the artistry from the technique. But the artist sees the picture in the viewfinder from the start, and will never need to be taught any rules at all. But that doesn't meant his doesn't use them. Pål
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
John Whicker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Vic, Photographers come from many different backgrounds. But there are really only two; the technician and the artist. Nonsense. There are an infinite number of different kinds of photographers. Technician and Artist are the extreme ends of the long line on which this infinite number of types occupies various intermediate positions. Some close to one end or the other and some in the middle. The technician needs to be taught composition. The artist needs only to be taught how to handle a camera and film. Neither one *needs* to be taught anything, but everyone can learn and benefit from teaching if they approach it with an open mind. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
I've got 12 inches, but I never use it as a rule Boom boom! :-) Oh, swipe me! He paints with light! http://www.macads.co.uk/snaps/ Free UK Macintosh Classified Ads at http://www.macads.co.uk/
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
I suspect that _all_ rules of competition may have been empirically derived (or discovered). They are the result of critics separating out the images (painting, watercolor, photography, whatever) that stand the test of time and acclaim from those that are, well, mundane. The rules arose from a critical comparison of the two. It is irrelevant whether we go through this process each for ourselves, or we speed up the process by trying the common suggestions and make our own modifications. We still end up with rules. They are still rules even if they have now become so natural to us that we are no longer aware of them. They are still rules even if they are followed due to an innate ability. Regards, Bob Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy! - Benjamin Franklin From: Pål Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] John wrote: Photographers come from many different backgrounds. But there are really only two; the technician and the artist. Not really, There are also everything in between. I don't think you can really separate the artistry from the technique. But the artist sees the picture in the viewfinder from the start, and will never need to be taught any rules at all. But that doesn't meant his doesn't use them.
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
Sorry Tony but your explanation is way too simplistic. If only it were that easy. There are artists and there are technicians so if you are not an artist guys you may as well forget about ever trying to create a photograph that even comes close to a piece of art. I think you are right in concluding that there are technicians who will probably never develop an artistic eye but most people fall somewhere in the middle and many can easily move to the artistic side with hard work ... I'm not going to go on and on here. Once again someone has misinterpreted the term rules. Let's use guidelines instead. Artists use compositional guidelines to improve their work. Good artists know when to break away from these guidelines to improve their work of art... Artists who don't know the guidelines likely struggle to find a starting point Vic In a message dated 1/2/03 9:19:10 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Vic, Photographers come from many different backgrounds. But there are really only two; the technician and the artist. The technician needs to be taught composition. The artist needs only to be taught how to handle a camera and film. Later, the technician may later develop into an artist, and then he/she won't need to remember many rules. But the artist sees the picture in the viewfinder from the start, and will never need to be taught any rules at all. The people who praise and use rules, and insist that others need to be taught them, can only ever be technicians. You won't find many artists teaching rules, although they might appear (to technicians) to be using them in their work. To answer the inevitable question, I always was, am and always will be a technician, but I really wish I was an artist! Tony
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
Finger exercises are for developing good technique so that your fingers will do what you want them to do. It doesn't give you any musical/artistic sense, but it will enable you to make good music. Not. It will enable you to play the right notes, but the right notes don't necessarily mean good music. Thank you Bill! How many of the children who are taught finger exercises ever become even decent musicians?!? And from the opposite perspective, many great musicians were self-taught, by ear, and some even get to maturity without the ability to read music. I'm afraid that the idea that everyone starts with the rules of composition and practices them until they become instinctive, while seductive I suppose, just doesn't stand up to any reasonable reality test. --Mike
RE: Pish-posh and balderdash
Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] This helps me to go back to my basics as I try to explain photography basics to them. They seem to grow from experience, especially as they come back to ask more questions. César how do you explain the composition side of your work? Herb
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
Here Here. Well said. Vic In a message dated 12/31/02 5:21:34 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: With all respect, the above is pure nonsense. Whether or not the rules are done consciously or not has nothing to do with it. You cannot compose music arbitarily; you cannot photograph without adhering to some relations successfully; you cannot design a car without getting the proportions right etc. All this provided you want anyone else besides yourself to appreciate your work. You don't have to be aware of the rules to apply them. However, being aware help you to progress with whatever artistic expression you participate in. Pål
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
Exactly my point Bob. Mike seems to think he and all photographers don't need to follow any rules. He is sorely mistaken. I don't feel like arguing the point in every great detail because it is not worth it to me. There are compositional rules and if he dosn't want to use them that's fine with me. If he thinks they don't exist, that's fine with me too. If he thinks he is helping new photographers by telling them there are no rules of composition, he is doing them a great diservice. Artistic composition is something that is learned. There are rules to follow that would immediately improve many images. When photographers develop an eye for composition, it becomes second nature. When it becomes second nature, is probably a good time to begin breaking the rules... Vic In a message dated 12/31/02 4:30:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: he point is that you're right. Great golfers no longer think about the angle of their shin-bone or whatever, they just do it. Nevertheless you can bet your sweet ass that Tiger Woods learned the rules somewhere along the line, modified them to suit himself and made them second nature. Regards, Bob
RE: Pish-posh and balderdash
I don't tend to. When asked why I shot it as I did I have to really think about it and come back to the fact that it strikes me and I move around until it 'seems' right. Fortunately, I am asked technical questions of apertures and such... César Panama City, Florida -- -Original Message- -- From: Herb Chong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] -- Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 8:47 AM -- -- Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- This helps me to go back to my basics as I try to explain -- photography -- basics -- to them. They seem to grow from experience, especially as -- they come back -- to -- ask more questions. -- -- César -- -- how do you explain the composition side of your work? -- -- Herb --
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
I can take a small watch to pieces and put it back together and it will work. I can use a micromanipulator to remove the nucleus from a cell. So there is nothing much wrong with my fingers. But I'll be buggered if I can play the piano. I was taught by a Nun with a ruler gripped in her gnarled fist; perhaps that has something to do with it? I hope everyone is having a good day. I am. Its warmed up a bit only -25C now (12:30) - last night it was -37C. Don Dr E D F Williams http://personal.inet.fi/cool/don.williams Author's Web Site and Photo Gallery Updated: March 30, 2002 - Original Message - From: Mike Johnston [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 9:59 AM Subject: Re: Pish-posh and balderdash Finger exercises are for developing good technique so that your fingers will do what you want them to do. It doesn't give you any musical/artistic sense, but it will enable you to make good music. Not. It will enable you to play the right notes, but the right notes don't necessarily mean good music. Thank you Bill! How many of the children who are taught finger exercises ever become even decent musicians?!? And from the opposite perspective, many great musicians were self-taught, by ear, and some even get to maturity without the ability to read music. I'm afraid that the idea that everyone starts with the rules of composition and practices them until they become instinctive, while seductive I suppose, just doesn't stand up to any reasonable reality test. --Mike
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
Bruce Rubenstein wrote: I come from a family with several musicians. You don't play classical music without solid technique. True enough. My daughter started taking violin lessons at the age of 9. At the time we had hoped that she would study with Mrs. Kim, a Korean string musician who teaches Suzuki method and has trained some excellent violinists. Unfortunately, there was a waiting list, so we hired someone else. After three years, we got to the top of the waiting list. Mrs. Kim interviewed my daughter and agreed to take her on. But, although my daughter had progressed through the first five books of Suzuki with the other teacher, Mrs. Kim insisted that she start over again with Suzuki book one and lessons in basic technique. She said that my daughter had developed some minor flaws in her technique that would limit her down the road. That was six years ago. Today my daughter is an excellent violinist, who has won numerous honors in solo competitions and is a member of the Michigan State University orchestra. She still practices scales and position exercises, and occassionally visits Mrs. Kim for a critique of her technique. Paul Stenquist
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
- Original Message - From: Malcolm Smith Subject: RE: Pish-posh and balderdash Dr E D F Williams wrote: I hope everyone is having a good day. I am. Its warmed up a bit only -25C now (12:30) - last night it was -37C. Don, I was wondering how my LX would work at that temperature and I suddenly realised..I don't work at that level of chilliness. The silver oxide batteries that power the LX will crap out after about an hour at -40ºC, and you lose metering and slow speeds. The shutter on my LX continued to work at -40ºC for over two hours, giving times that were reliable enough for Kodachrome slide film. I gave up before the camera did when I cold tested the thing. William Robb
RE: Pish-posh and balderdash
William Robb wrote: The silver oxide batteries that power the LX will crap out after about an hour at -40ºC, and you lose metering and slow speeds. The shutter on my LX continued to work at -40ºC for over two hours, giving times that were reliable enough for Kodachrome slide film. I gave up before the camera did when I cold tested the thing. Thanks Bill, Now I know what my LXs will cope with! However, at such low temperatures, my nose will kept be warm under the blankets! Malcolm
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
I don't know, I see a lot of difference between developing motor skills, and developing visual skills. With a couple of years of tutoring by an excellent music tutor, and a couple of hours a day practice, people who didn't even know me could reconise the tune I was trying to play, barely. But I don't think any amount of making photos by rules is going to improve you vision one bit, it does not take extreme motor skills to work a camera. Conclusion: bogus argument. Ciao, Graywolf http://pages.prodigy.net/graywolfphoto - Original Message - From: Paul Stenquist [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 12:10 PM Subject: Re: Pish-posh and balderdash Bruce Rubenstein wrote: I come from a family with several musicians. You don't play classical music without solid technique. True enough. My daughter started taking violin lessons at the age of 9. At the time we had hoped that she would study with Mrs. Kim, a Korean string musician who teaches Suzuki method and has trained some excellent violinists. Unfortunately, there was a waiting list, so we hired someone else. After three years, we got to the top of the waiting list. Mrs. Kim interviewed my daughter and agreed to take her on. But, although my daughter had progressed through the first five books of Suzuki with the other teacher, Mrs. Kim insisted that she start over again with Suzuki book one and lessons in basic technique. She said that my daughter had developed some minor flaws in her technique that would limit her down the road. That was six years ago. Today my daughter is an excellent violinist, who has won numerous honors in solo competitions and is a member of the Michigan State University orchestra. She still practices scales and position exercises, and occassionally visits Mrs. Kim for a critique of her technique. Paul Stenquist
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO, learning to see better is a technique and when it comes to graphic arts and photography, it is *the* technique. Exactly. And there are some guidelines that can help one learn to see better. Some do it instinctively; some have to learn. Paul Stenquist
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
Music and scales were brought up by Mike: his bogus point. If you're going to manually follow focus a football player (their's or our's) with a long lens, you need some real well honed motor skills. Any skill can be improved with practice. BR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know, I see a lot of difference between developing motor skills, and developing visual skills. With a couple of years of tutoring by an excellent music tutor, and a couple of hours a day practice, people who didn't even know me could reconise the tune I was trying to play, barely. But I don't think any amount of making photos by rules is going to improve you vision one bit, it does not take extreme motor skills to work a camera. Conclusion: bogus argument. Ciao, Graywolf http://pages.prodigy.net/graywolfphoto
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
Artistic composition is something that is learned. There are rules to follow that would immediately improve many images. Vic, What are they? What rules do you follow? --Mike
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
If anyone in my hearing right now is troubling their brains about some species of nattering nonsense they read in some dreadful little all-about-photography book somewhere, please take my advice: FORGET ALL ABOUT IT. You can't reduce pictures meaningfully to rules of thumb, either before or after the fact. --Mike Yeah guys, pay attention to what Mike says. Use of a little common sense will usually produce better photos than a lot of book sense. IOW, go take the damned picture to suit you and don't worry about what some writer says (Sorry , Mike) Bill
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
I don't know about that. I'm convinced that some folks start photography with an innate sense of composition. Whether they were born with it or developed it via some other conduit which they have long forgotten, I don't know. From your posts, I suspect you are one of these blessed people. The rest of us mortals, however, need help. Perhaps it would be more palatable if we called them starting suggestions instead of rules? Since I am not a great musician, nor am I a golfer or a poet, and since such examples are given, I feel free to use as an example something I am a master at, high power shooting. There are rules: proper stance or position, proper orientation, proper clothing, proper gun handling and placement, proper use of the sling, sight picture, breathing - even timing for heartbeat, trigger control, considerations for (doping) the wind and for the best, mind control (some call it chi). I was worse than mediocre until I started using the tools. Each one can produce a serious increase in score. I am no longer conscious of using most of the rules (some of which I've had to modify - for me). After years of practice, they've become pretty much a second nature. Damn good thing to. If I had to bring all of them to mind with every shot, I'd probably never finish in time and for sure I'd slack off on one while I concentrated on another. Frankly, it's like learning to drive a manual shift car. At first you consciously try to apply the rules correctly (push in clutch, pull out of gear to neutral, place in next gear, don't bang it, let the synchronizers work, let up the clutch until it catches, give some gas - not too much, not too little, don't let it slip it to much or the clutch will wear unnecessarily, thank god I got to second gear! Now for third! Well I don't think about any of that any more. I'm still applying the rules, but unconsciously and, of course, much more smoothly. Sometimes I have to deviate. Sometimes there's no time to wait for the synchronizers. The point is that you're right. Great golfers no longer think about the angle of their shin-bone or whatever, they just do it. Nevertheless you can bet your sweet ass that Tiger Woods learned the rules somewhere along the line, modified them to suit himself and made them second nature. Regards, Bob Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy! - Benjamin Franklin From: Mike Johnston [EMAIL PROTECTED] That's not to say you can't and should not break the rules. The rules are a starting point and that's all. But, like I said earlier, you need to know the rules before you break them with any intelligience. The best pictures are the ones that break the rules because they add tension to the image. THERE...ARE...NO...RULES. Full stop. But, don't kid yourself, those photographers who create these magnificent rule-breaking images on a regular basis are quite aware that they are breaking the rules. Oh, pish-posh and balderdash. Great photographers no more think about rules of composition than great composers think about their childhood finger-exercises or great golfers think about the angle of their shin-bone. How many great poets do you think can diagram a sentence? If anyone in my hearing right now is troubling their brains about some species of nattering nonsense they read in some dreadful little all-about-photography book somewhere, please take my advice: FORGET ALL ABOUT IT. You can't reduce pictures meaningfully to rules of thumb, either before or after the fact.
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
Seems reasonable to me. Follows every other skilled endeavor of mankind that I know. If this were not true, all that need or should be taught in photography classes is the mechanics and the chemistry. Regards, Bob Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy! - Benjamin Franklin From: Pat White [EMAIL PROTECTED] Many years ago, someone told me that brown belts make better karate instructors than black belts because the brown belts still remember and can still describe what they do. For the black belts, on the other hand, the techniques have become instinctive, and the beginners' details now seem hard to explain, since they've been absorbed into muscle memory. The black belts see the bigger picture, the goal of winning the bout, and don't need to think consciously about their stance, etc. In the same way, experienced, skilled, photographers know what looks right, and don't need to think about beginners' guidelines anymore. Does anyone else see it this way?
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
Finger exercises are for developing good technique so that your fingers will do what you want them to do. It doesn't give you any musical/artistic sense, but it will enable you to make good music. Exercises, in general, are for developing conditioned reflexes. For photography it also helps to practice seeing. BR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Somewhere down the line somebody analysed piano-playing, or violin-playing or whatever, and developed the finger exercises that musicians spent so many tedious hours working on to the extent that they can forget them.
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
Finger exercises are for developing good technique so that your fingers will do what you want them to do. It doesn't give you any musical/artistic sense, but it will enable you to make good music. Not. It will enable you to play the right notes, but the right notes don't necessarily mean good music. Bill
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
- Original Message - From: Mike Johnston Subject: Pish-posh and balderdash You can't reduce pictures meaningfully to rules of thumb, either before or after the fact. But you can reduce meaningful pictures by applying rules of thumb. William Robb
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
Hi, Tuesday, December 31, 2002, 8:28:50 PM, you wrote: [...] If anyone in my hearing right now is troubling their brains about some species of nattering nonsense they read in some dreadful little all-about-photography book somewhere, please take my advice: FORGET ALL ABOUT IT. You can't reduce pictures meaningfully to rules of thumb, either before or after the fact. alternatively, you could learn a little more about it and decide for yourself. --- Bob
Re: Pish-posh and balderdash
THERE...ARE...NO...RULES. Full stop. Period! I have to agree with you on this one Mike. You've got it spot on old chap. No rules! If it looks right it *is* right. Yep. That's it. That's *THE* ... golden...er...r-r-r-r- :-) HNY to you mate! Cotty PS Actually do agree. No, really. Oh, swipe me! He paints with light! http://www.macads.co.uk/snaps/ Free UK Macintosh Classified Ads at http://www.macads.co.uk/
