Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[frank theriault]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 7:26 PM, John Sessoms  wrote:

> The real problem with it is the CORPORATION's POLICY and copyright law.
>
> Somewhere, the CORPORATION has a POLICY that says the photolab will not
> reproduce "copyright" works or photos by "professional photographers."
>
> The CORPORATION I work for has one.
>
> Ninety-nine and forty-four one hundredths percent of the time it ain't
> gonna' be no problem. But it only takes ONE TIME to fuck up the rest of your
> life.
>
> According to the DMCA copyright law, those photos are NOT the property of
> the bride and groom, they're the property of the photographer who took the
> photos. The DMCA copyright law is written so that the OWNER of the photolab
> equipment and the *OPERATOR* of the photolab are liable for the violation
> instead of the customer who uses the equipment.
>
> The DMCA copyright law allows the photographer to SUE THE PHOTOLAB and
> collect $500,000 per instance of "copyright infringement"; where each
> photograph printed is defined as one instance.
>
> The CORPORATION POLICY is there just in case a photographer does sue the
> photolab to enforce their copyright, the CORPORATION can use that POLICY to
> push all of the liability off onto the poor schlub running the equipment.
>
> Of course, if you're that poor schlub, you're between a rock and a hard
> place. If you follow the CORPORATION's POLICY and the customer complains,
> MANAGEMENT will shit all over you.
>
> You'll get at least a reprimand for pissing off the customer, and you might
> get fired for "poor customer relations" just for following the CORPORATION's
> POLICY.
>
> And if you don't follow the CORPORATON's POLICY, they can use that any time
> they want an excuse to fire you and leave you all alone to face the legal
> liabilities for violating the DMCA copyright law.
>
> Because the DMCA copyright law says the equipment OWNER and/or OPERATOR are
> the liable parties. The CORPORATION POLICY shields the company and leaves
> all the liability on the operator who didn't follow the CORPORATION POLICY.
>
> I have to walk a fine line all the time.
>
> As long as I don't KNOW the customer is violating the DMCA copyright law, I
> can ignore what they're doing. They can use that instant printing kiosk all
> day long and I won't interfere - as long as I can get away with denying I
> knew they were violating the DMCA copyright law, and plausibly claim I would
> have enforced the CORPORATION POLICY if only I had known.
>
> If the customer does something that forces me to acknowledge they're
> printing copyrighted images, like asking me to help them do so, I'll call
> the store manager, point out the relevant CORPORATION POLICY to the manager
> and leave the manager to explain to the customer why the photolab can't
> print their photos.
>
> And if the customer sends it through the one hour printer and it's got Olan
> Mills or Life Touch Studios or J.C. Penney's Studio or ANY OTHER copyright
> notice on the face of the image, I'll stop the job, and again I'm calling
> the manager over and dumping it off on him.
>
> He can deal with the customer when they come looking for their photos. He
> can explain the CORPORATION POLICY regarding copyrighted images.
>
> I'm fairly flexible. I don't balk at someone trying to copy their
> grand-parents portrait from the 20s, 30s or 40s. And I won't get bent out of
> shape over old school photos and such, even from the 50s, 60s or 70s. In
> fact, I'll use all the magic I can to get them something special.
>
> But I ain't touchin' anything printed on modern professional paper that has
> the copyright notice pre-printed or stamped on the back.
>
> And if a CD or DVD has the photographer's name on it or if the images have
> the photographer's name embedded in the image, they gotta have a release. It
> can be the first JPEG on the disc, that's the easiest way to do it from the
> lab's point of view, because I can see the release right there on the
> selection screen ... but they gotta have a release of some kind.
>
> I'm covering MY ass!
>
> Refusing to allow myself to be left holding the bag if a legal shit-storm
> descends on that photolab don't make me an idiot, sniveling or otherwise.
>
> They don't pay me enough for that kind of risk.

You've clearly been attending the JCO ONLINE SCHOOL OF INTERNET ETIQUETTE!!!

;-)

cheers,
frank

-- 
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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[John Mullan]

Assisting is probably the best way to get introduced to the business.  Let 
someone else deal with the details, you do the work and cash the check. 
Then see if it is where you want to be.  Hope you are feeling better.


jm
- Original Message - 
From: "John Celio" 

To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?


Hey guys.  I've been under the weather the last few days and hadn't read 
anything until just now.


I, uh...

I've got a lot to learn.  Maybe I should see about being someone's 
assistant before I go out on my own.  Of course, I've already got a good 
chance of getting a wedding gig for later this year, but at least that 
gives me time to get my ducks in a row.


Thank you all for your input.  I'm more frightened than ever

John  ;)

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http://www.cafepress.com/calemp
http://www.cafepress.com/neovenatorphoto


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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Matthew Hunt]

On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 5:46 PM, John Celio  wrote:

> Thank you all for your input.  I'm more frightened than ever

Speck!

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[John Celio]

Hey guys.  I've been under the weather the last few days and hadn't read 
anything until just now.


I, uh...

I've got a lot to learn.  Maybe I should see about being someone's assistant 
before I go out on my own.  Of course, I've already got a good chance of 
getting a wedding gig for later this year, but at least that gives me time 
to get my ducks in a row.


Thank you all for your input.  I'm more frightened than ever

John  ;)

--
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http://www.cafepress.com/calemp
http://www.cafepress.com/neovenatorphoto 




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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "John Sessoms"

Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?



From: "William Robb"
- Original Message - 
From: "Paul Stenquist"

Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?


> Agreed. It just never occurred to me that I should, and I'm a bit 
> surprised that no one has had a problem buying prints.


When I was still at the Wally-Lab I had several long and somewhat testy 
conversations with various of my co-drones about this very thing.
The theory was that we couldn't print "professional" work, my take was 
that if the photographer had put a disc of full resolution files into his 
customer's hands, he wasn't really in a position to enforce copyright, 
were he so inclined.
But, the fact that it even came up in conversation sensitized me to the 
problem that customers could run into with getting their own property 
printed if they ran into a sniveling idiot behind the counter.






The real problem with it is the CORPORATION's POLICY and copyright law.

Somewhere, the CORPORATION has a POLICY that says the photolab will not 
reproduce "copyright" works or photos by "professional photographers."


The CORPORATION I work for has one.

Ninety-nine and forty-four one hundredths percent of the time it ain't 
gonna' be no problem. But it only takes ONE TIME to fuck up the rest of 
your life.


According to the DMCA copyright law, those photos are NOT the property of 
the bride and groom, they're the property of the photographer who took the 
photos. The DMCA copyright law is written so that the OWNER of the 
photolab equipment and the *OPERATOR* of the photolab are liable for the 
violation instead of the customer who uses the equipment.


The DMCA copyright law allows the photographer to SUE THE PHOTOLAB and 
collect $500,000 per instance of "copyright infringement"; where each 
photograph printed is defined as one instance.


The CORPORATION POLICY is there just in case a photographer does sue the 
photolab to enforce their copyright, the CORPORATION can use that POLICY 
to push all of the liability off onto the poor schlub running the 
equipment.


Of course, if you're that poor schlub, you're between a rock and a hard 
place. If you follow the CORPORATION's POLICY and the customer complains, 
MANAGEMENT will shit all over you.


You'll get at least a reprimand for pissing off the customer, and you 
might get fired for "poor customer relations" just for following the 
CORPORATION's POLICY.


And if you don't follow the CORPORATON's POLICY, they can use that any 
time they want an excuse to fire you and leave you all alone to face the 
legal liabilities for violating the DMCA copyright law.


Because the DMCA copyright law says the equipment OWNER and/or OPERATOR 
are the liable parties. The CORPORATION POLICY shields the company and 
leaves all the liability on the operator who didn't follow the CORPORATION 
POLICY.


I have to walk a fine line all the time.

As long as I don't KNOW the customer is violating the DMCA copyright law, 
I can ignore what they're doing. They can use that instant printing kiosk 
all day long and I won't interfere - as long as I can get away with 
denying I knew they were violating the DMCA copyright law, and plausibly 
claim I would have enforced the CORPORATION POLICY if only I had known.


If the customer does something that forces me to acknowledge they're 
printing copyrighted images, like asking me to help them do so, I'll call 
the store manager, point out the relevant CORPORATION POLICY to the 
manager and leave the manager to explain to the customer why the photolab 
can't print their photos.


And if the customer sends it through the one hour printer and it's got 
Olan Mills or Life Touch Studios or J.C. Penney's Studio or ANY OTHER 
copyright notice on the face of the image, I'll stop the job, and again 
I'm calling the manager over and dumping it off on him.


He can deal with the customer when they come looking for their photos. He 
can explain the CORPORATION POLICY regarding copyrighted images.


I'm fairly flexible. I don't balk at someone trying to copy their 
grand-parents portrait from the 20s, 30s or 40s. And I won't get bent out 
of shape over old school photos and such, even from the 50s, 60s or 70s. 
In fact, I'll use all the magic I can to get them something special.


But I ain't touchin' anything printed on modern professional paper that 
has the copyright notice pre-printed or stamped on the back.


And if a CD or DVD has the photographer's name on it or if the images have 
the photographer's name embedded in the image, they gotta have a release. 
It can be the first JPEG on the disc, that's the easiest way to do it from 
the lab's po

Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[John Sessoms]

From: "William Robb"
- Original Message - 
From: "Paul Stenquist"

Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?


> Agreed. It just never occurred to me that I should, and I'm a bit 
> surprised that no one has had a problem buying prints.


When I was still at the Wally-Lab I had several long and somewhat testy 
conversations with various of my co-drones about this very thing.
The theory was that we couldn't print "professional" work, my take was that 
if the photographer had put a disc of full resolution files into his 
customer's hands, he wasn't really in a position to enforce copyright, were 
he so inclined.
But, the fact that it even came up in conversation sensitized me to the 
problem that customers could run into with getting their own property 
printed if they ran into a sniveling idiot behind the counter.


William Robb 


The real problem with it is the CORPORATION's POLICY and copyright law.

Somewhere, the CORPORATION has a POLICY that says the photolab will not 
reproduce "copyright" works or photos by "professional photographers."


The CORPORATION I work for has one.

Ninety-nine and forty-four one hundredths percent of the time it ain't 
gonna' be no problem. But it only takes ONE TIME to fuck up the rest of 
your life.


According to the DMCA copyright law, those photos are NOT the property 
of the bride and groom, they're the property of the photographer who 
took the photos. The DMCA copyright law is written so that the OWNER of 
the photolab equipment and the *OPERATOR* of the photolab are liable for 
the violation instead of the customer who uses the equipment.


The DMCA copyright law allows the photographer to SUE THE PHOTOLAB and 
collect $500,000 per instance of "copyright infringement"; where each 
photograph printed is defined as one instance.


The CORPORATION POLICY is there just in case a photographer does sue the 
photolab to enforce their copyright, the CORPORATION can use that POLICY 
to push all of the liability off onto the poor schlub running the 
equipment.


Of course, if you're that poor schlub, you're between a rock and a hard 
place. If you follow the CORPORATION's POLICY and the customer 
complains, MANAGEMENT will shit all over you.


You'll get at least a reprimand for pissing off the customer, and you 
might get fired for "poor customer relations" just for following the 
CORPORATION's POLICY.


And if you don't follow the CORPORATON's POLICY, they can use that any 
time they want an excuse to fire you and leave you all alone to face the 
legal liabilities for violating the DMCA copyright law.


Because the DMCA copyright law says the equipment OWNER and/or OPERATOR 
are the liable parties. The CORPORATION POLICY shields the company and 
leaves all the liability on the operator who didn't follow the 
CORPORATION POLICY.


I have to walk a fine line all the time.

As long as I don't KNOW the customer is violating the DMCA copyright 
law, I can ignore what they're doing. They can use that instant printing 
kiosk all day long and I won't interfere - as long as I can get away 
with denying I knew they were violating the DMCA copyright law, and 
plausibly claim I would have enforced the CORPORATION POLICY if only I 
had known.


If the customer does something that forces me to acknowledge they're 
printing copyrighted images, like asking me to help them do so, I'll 
call the store manager, point out the relevant CORPORATION POLICY to the 
manager and leave the manager to explain to the customer why the 
photolab can't print their photos.


And if the customer sends it through the one hour printer and it's got 
Olan Mills or Life Touch Studios or J.C. Penney's Studio or ANY OTHER 
copyright notice on the face of the image, I'll stop the job, and again 
I'm calling the manager over and dumping it off on him.


He can deal with the customer when they come looking for their photos. 
He can explain the CORPORATION POLICY regarding copyrighted images.


I'm fairly flexible. I don't balk at someone trying to copy their 
grand-parents portrait from the 20s, 30s or 40s. And I won't get bent 
out of shape over old school photos and such, even from the 50s, 60s or 
70s. In fact, I'll use all the magic I can to get them something special.


But I ain't touchin' anything printed on modern professional paper that 
has the copyright notice pre-printed or stamped on the back.


And if a CD or DVD has the photographer's name on it or if the images 
have the photographer's name embedded in the image, they gotta have a 
release. It can be the first JPEG on the disc, that's the easiest way to 
do it from the lab's point of view, because I can see the release right 
there on the selection screen ... but they gotta have a

Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[David J Brooks]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Doug Franklin
 wrote:
> David J Brooks wrote:
>>
>> Ok, I'm missing something here, I can tell.
>
> You're missing that you can't enforce copyright after giving them a CD full
> of images. :-)

Ah. That's fine. I tell them that when they buy the CD.:-)

Dave
>
> --
> Thanks,
> DougF (KG4LMZ)
>
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Ontario Canada

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Doug Franklin]

David J Brooks wrote:

Ok, I'm missing something here, I can tell.


You're missing that you can't enforce copyright after giving them a CD 
full of images. :-)


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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[David J Brooks]

Ok, I'm missing something here, I can tell.

Dave

On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Bruce Dayton  wrote:
> At least he spelled it right 
>
> --
> Bruce
>
>
> Friday, March 20, 2009, 6:20:52 AM, you wrote:
>
>
> WR> - Original Message -
> WR> From: "David J Brooks"
> WR> Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?
>
>
>>> One thing i  have never had, is a customer come back to me, after
>>> buying a day CD, and saying Wally mart etc would not print the photos.
>>>
>
> WR> Dave, think about what you are saying.
>
>
> WR> --
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> WR> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
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> follow the directions.
>
>
>
>
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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[pnstenquist]

I agree. I don't mind doing high volume jobs as long as the dollar per hour 
figure works for me. Similarly, a single shot that requires extensive setup may 
bring in the same amount of revenue as 500 shots that are the result of mass 
production shooting. Without film and processing costs to consider, it all 
comes down to getting paid for your time.
Paul
- "Bruce Dayton"  wrote:

> These days, I am seeing the value of the 'image' really going down.
> I tend to charge for my time up front whenever possible rather than
> trying to charge for the image, as most people now just aren't
> willing to pay anything for it.  They seem somewhat ok with paying
> for a service provided, however.
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
> Bruce
> 
> 
> Friday, March 20, 2009, 9:49:49 AM, you wrote:
> 
> WR> I just ask them what they do for a living and immediately start
> pumping them
> WR> for information.
> WR> It usually gets the point across.
> WR> But it doesn't generate sales.
> 
> WR> William Robb 
> 
> 
> WR> - Original Message - 
> WR> From: "ann sanfedele"
> WR> Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?
> 
> 
> 
> >> The panel moderator asked if he could have the "wonderful photo" I
> took of 
> >> him for his website...  I said if he
> >> wanted the photo on his site he could buy a jpg file from me on a
> "pay 
> >> what you will' basis , but he could also
> >> just include a link on his web site to the photo on my web site for
> no 
> >> fee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Bruce Dayton]

These days, I am seeing the value of the 'image' really going down.
I tend to charge for my time up front whenever possible rather than
trying to charge for the image, as most people now just aren't
willing to pay anything for it.  They seem somewhat ok with paying
for a service provided, however.

-- 
Best regards,
Bruce


Friday, March 20, 2009, 9:49:49 AM, you wrote:

WR> I just ask them what they do for a living and immediately start pumping them
WR> for information.
WR> It usually gets the point across.
WR> But it doesn't generate sales.

WR> William Robb 


WR> - Original Message - 
WR> From: "ann sanfedele"
WR> Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?



>> The panel moderator asked if he could have the "wonderful photo" I took of 
>> him for his website...  I said if he
>> wanted the photo on his site he could buy a jpg file from me on a "pay 
>> what you will' basis , but he could also
>> just include a link on his web site to the photo on my web site for no 
>> fee.





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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Bruce Dayton]

At least he spelled it right 

-- 
Bruce


Friday, March 20, 2009, 6:20:52 AM, you wrote:


WR> - Original Message - 
WR> From: "David J Brooks" 
WR> Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?


>> One thing i  have never had, is a customer come back to me, after
>> buying a day CD, and saying Wally mart etc would not print the photos.
>> 

WR> Dave, think about what you are saying.


WR> --
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WR> PDML@pdml.net
WR> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
WR> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and 
follow the directions.




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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Doug Brewer]

Mark Roberts wrote:


Now the concept is becoming institutionalized with things like the CNN 
"iReport", which is just photos and videos shot by passers-by of news 
events and sent in to CNN. With, of course, no compensation paid to the 
"iReporter". They never meet the standards that one would expect from a 
professional photographer or videographer, but they *do*, as a whole, 
take work away from the Paul Stenquists and Cottys of the world.


cool, I thought I was the only one bothered by the iReporter thing. What 
a scam, but people fall for it, because they can get their names on The 
Web.


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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "ann sanfedele"

Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?



The panel moderator asked if he could have the "wonderful photo" I took of 
him for his website...  I said if he
wanted the photo on his site he could buy a jpg file from me on a "pay 
what you will' basis , but he could also
just include a link on his web site to the photo on my web site for no 
fee.


I just ask them what they do for a living and immediately start pumping them 
for information.

It usually gets the point across.
But it doesn't generate sales.

William Robb 



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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[ann sanfedele]

Mark Roberts wrote:


Christine wrote ...[ snip snip]
Everybody wants something for nothing.


A few years ago in Rochester I took a great shot of the start of the 
Lilac Festival 10k: Head on view through a 300mm lens of all the 
runners coming toward the camera, with former U.S. Olympic team member 
John Tuttle in the middle and leading. There was a late spring that 
year and there were almost no lilacs blooming - except for the big 
patch I got in the background of this photo.
I had it on my web site, of course, and the following spring one of 
the organizers of the race asked if I'd let them use the photo in 
their race promotions. I said, "Yes", of course, "for an appropriate 
fee". He suggested (predictably to all of you by now) that I should 
let them use the shot for free because it would be good promotion for me.
Here's my response: "The fact that you found my image and liked it 
enough to use it is proof that I don't *need* any additional 
promotion. What I do need is money and that's what I require in return 
for use of my work."


Never heard back from them.

The same kind of thing has happened to me many times :( 


Me too -- and my photos at this point are the only thing keeping a roof 
over my head besides my  ss check


I dig a gig where I photo'ed an "event" the showing of a film on the 
little known poet Htam Plutzik... followed by
a panel discussion...  I got paid for the shoot and a CD for the PLutzik 
foundation, and I made public for viewing

on the web on my site the shots I took...

The panel moderator asked if he could have the "wonderful photo" I took 
of him for his website...  I said if he
wanted the photo on his site he could buy a jpg file from me on a "pay 
what you will' basis , but he could also
just include a link on his web site to the photo on my web site for no 
fee.  


Never heard back from him, either

sigh
ann








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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Mark Roberts]

Christine Aguila wrote:


Me:  Then we would need to talk terms, right?

consulting assistant:  (He begrudgingly hands me his business card and 
doesn't look too happy.)


Everybody wants something for nothing.


A few years ago in Rochester I took a great shot of the start of the 
Lilac Festival 10k: Head on view through a 300mm lens of all the runners 
coming toward the camera, with former U.S. Olympic team member John 
Tuttle in the middle and leading. There was a late spring that year and 
there were almost no lilacs blooming - except for the big patch I got in 
the background of this photo.


I had it on my web site, of course, and the following spring one of the 
organizers of the race asked if I'd let them use the photo in their race 
promotions. I said, "Yes", of course, "for an appropriate fee". He 
suggested (predictably to all of you by now) that I should let them use 
the shot for free because it would be good promotion for me.


Here's my response: "The fact that you found my image and liked it 
enough to use it is proof that I don't *need* any additional promotion. 
What I do need is money and that's what I require in return for use of 
my work."


Never heard back from them.

The same kind of thing has happened to me many times :(

Now the concept is becoming institutionalized with things like the CNN 
"iReport", which is just photos and videos shot by passers-by of news 
events and sent in to CNN. With, of course, no compensation paid to the 
"iReporter". They never meet the standards that one would expect from a 
professional photographer or videographer, but they *do*, as a whole, 
take work away from the Paul Stenquists and Cottys of the world.


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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[mike wilson]

 Mark Roberts  wrote: 
> David Savage wrote:
> > Every time a hear a discussion about giving away photographs (and
> > pricing in such a way as it's almost the same thing) this interview
> > with Harlan Ellison comes to mind:
> > 
> > 
> 
> That absolutely rocks.

Certanly rocks my machine.  Every time (I only did it twice) I click on it 
multiple pages of YouTube open in extremely rapid succession.

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[David J Brooks]

On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 9:20 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "David J Brooks" Subject: Re: Wedding
> photography, starting price?
>
>
>> One thing i  have never had, is a customer come back to me, after
>> buying a day CD, and saying Wally mart etc would not print the photos.
>>
>
> Dave, think about what you are saying.

That the tech thinks my shots or not professional.:-)

Dave
>
>
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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "David J Brooks" 
Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?




One thing i  have never had, is a customer come back to me, after
buying a day CD, and saying Wally mart etc would not print the photos.



Dave, think about what you are saying.


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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[David J Brooks]

One thing i  have never had, is a customer come back to me, after
buying a day CD, and saying Wally mart etc would not print the photos.

Dave

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 7:34 PM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "Paul Stenquist"
> Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?
>
>
>> Agreed. It just never occurred to me that I should, and I'm a bit
>> surprised that no one has had a problem buying prints.
>
> When I was still at the Wally-Lab I had several long and somewhat testy
> conversations with various of my co-drones about this very thing.
> The theory was that we couldn't print "professional" work, my take was that
> if the photographer had put a disc of full resolution files into his
> customer's hands, he wasn't really in a position to enforce copyright, were
> he so inclined.
> But, the fact that it even came up in conversation sensitized me to the
> problem that customers could run into with getting their own property
> printed if they ran into a sniveling idiot behind the counter.
>
> William Robb
>
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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[mike wilson]

 Matthew Hunt  wrote: 
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:
> 
> > This guy is a good photographer
> ...
> > Sadly, he's a Canon shooter...
> 
> Your story doesn't make any sense.

Makes perfect sense.  A good photographer can use any old beater to produce 
quality work.  He has a series (gold, titanium, etc) of LXs at home.

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[mike wilson]

 Matthew Hunt  wrote: 
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:
> 
> > This guy is a good photographer
> ...
> > Sadly, he's a Canon shooter...
> 
> Your story doesn't make any sense.

Makes perfect sense.  A good photographer can use any old beater to produce 
quality work.  He has a series (gold, titanium, etc) of LXs at home.

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[David Savage]

On 20/03/2009, Doug Franklin  wrote:
> Mark Roberts wrote:
>> David Savage wrote:
>>> 
>>
>> That absolutely rocks.
>
> I couldn't resist ... it has a suitably surly cant ...
>
>  http://surlydoug.com/
>
> Priceless.

Hahaha...

So true.

The kite surfing photos I took a few months ago are my case in point.
The event organiser saw them & asked if he could some them  in a
national kite surfing publication to help promote & raise sponsorship
dollars for next years event. He'd also asked a couple of my friends
who were also there shooting.

We presented a unified front & basically offered him 2 choices:

1) Pay a nominal fee for limited usage rights (we realised he wouldn't
have a huge budget, so the fee was very nominal)
2) Grant him usage rights, in return for exclusive access to a future event.

We never heard back from him.

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Doug Franklin]

Mark Roberts wrote:

David Savage wrote:




That absolutely rocks.


I couldn't resist ... it has a suitably surly cant ...

http://surlydoug.com/

Priceless.

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Luiz Felipe]

Sad, but that's happening everywhere. One of the things asked to new 
photographers around here is to offer some of the agencies a free photo 
- so they can be sure of his qualities... Many accept.


Often I offered the client more than one option - one as asked, other as 
my personal view of the subject. Now and then I found both used - being 
paid by one. Started offering the second as "preview" in form of 4x5 
prints and guess what - two of them used the prints, with lousy results. 
They just couldn't resist the "free photo".


LF

Christine Aguila escreveu:
Here's a conversation I recently had with a consulting assistant to one 
of the contractors working with the construction team that's building 
our new parking facilities and student service building at work:
(I'm on my way to the construction site, rigged-out with photo gear, the 
consulting assistant sees me)


consulting assistant (the short guy):  Hey, are you the one that took 
that great photo of my boss's back-hoe?  The one hanging in the trailer?


Me:  Yes, that's a print I gave as a gift to the foreman.

consulting assistant:  Send me a jpeg, will you.  Here's my email.  I 
know my boss would love it.  It's a photo we could use.


Me:  What would you be using the photograph for?  Would you be using it 
in brochures, trade advertising, PR materials?


consulting assistant:  probably.

Me:  Then we would need to talk terms, right?

consulting assistant:  (He begrudgingly hands me his business card and 
doesn't look too happy.)


Everybody wants something for nothing.





- Original Message - From: "David Savage" 
To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?



Every time a hear a discussion about giving away photographs (and
pricing in such a way as it's almost the same thing) this interview
with Harlan Ellison comes to mind:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE>

Cheers,

Dave

2009/3/19 William Robb :

Repost from April 1, 2001.
Perhaps it bears repeating.

Don't be a cheap whore, you won't get respected for it, and when
you want to graduate to being a high class whore, no one will be
willing to pay you for it. I have seen it happen before in my
under populated part of the world.
People will only value your work as much as you do.

The guy I mentored with had a thriving weekend wedding business
going. In 1972, I started going out on paying jobs with him,
learning how to photograph weddings. By 1975, he had over a
dozen photographers working for him, shooting weddings. Over
time, these people started going out on their own, becoming
competition for the trade. Eventually, the market for wedding
photographers saturated to the point where my mentor decided to
become more competitive. He started dropping his prices. He is
now on welfare, and pretty god damned bitter about it.

Being a cheap whore is always a mistake.

People will pay quality money for what they percieve as a
quality job. By charging cheap, you are sending a message that
you don't think your work is worth their money. This is not a
strategy for long term business success.

You want to know
what happens in markets where someone comes in and low balls the
available work? Everyone suffers for it. The photographers
suffer because some idiot is saying that photo portraiture isn't
worth paying for, and everyone has to drop their prices to
compete. The clients suffer because with the new, lower pricing,
quality suffers, because it isn't worthwhile to do a good job
anymore.


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luiz.felipe at techmit.com.br
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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Christine Aguila]

Here's a conversation I recently had with a consulting assistant to one of 
the contractors working with the construction team that's building our new 
parking facilities and student service building at work:
(I'm on my way to the construction site, rigged-out with photo gear, the 
consulting assistant sees me)


consulting assistant (the short guy):  Hey, are you the one that took that 
great photo of my boss's back-hoe?  The one hanging in the trailer?


Me:  Yes, that's a print I gave as a gift to the foreman.

consulting assistant:  Send me a jpeg, will you.  Here's my email.  I know 
my boss would love it.  It's a photo we could use.


Me:  What would you be using the photograph for?  Would you be using it in 
brochures, trade advertising, PR materials?


consulting assistant:  probably.

Me:  Then we would need to talk terms, right?

consulting assistant:  (He begrudgingly hands me his business card and 
doesn't look too happy.)


Everybody wants something for nothing.





- Original Message - 
From: "David Savage" 

To: "Pentax-Discuss Mail List" 
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?



Every time a hear a discussion about giving away photographs (and
pricing in such a way as it's almost the same thing) this interview
with Harlan Ellison comes to mind:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE>

Cheers,

Dave

2009/3/19 William Robb :

Repost from April 1, 2001.
Perhaps it bears repeating.

Don't be a cheap whore, you won't get respected for it, and when
you want to graduate to being a high class whore, no one will be
willing to pay you for it. I have seen it happen before in my
under populated part of the world.
People will only value your work as much as you do.

The guy I mentored with had a thriving weekend wedding business
going. In 1972, I started going out on paying jobs with him,
learning how to photograph weddings. By 1975, he had over a
dozen photographers working for him, shooting weddings. Over
time, these people started going out on their own, becoming
competition for the trade. Eventually, the market for wedding
photographers saturated to the point where my mentor decided to
become more competitive. He started dropping his prices. He is
now on welfare, and pretty god damned bitter about it.

Being a cheap whore is always a mistake.

People will pay quality money for what they percieve as a
quality job. By charging cheap, you are sending a message that
you don't think your work is worth their money. This is not a
strategy for long term business success.

You want to know
what happens in markets where someone comes in and low balls the
available work? Everyone suffers for it. The photographers
suffer because some idiot is saying that photo portraiture isn't
worth paying for, and everyone has to drop their prices to
compete. The clients suffer because with the new, lower pricing,
quality suffers, because it isn't worthwhile to do a good job
anymore.


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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Larry Colen]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 08:11:19PM -0400, Mark Roberts wrote:
> David Savage wrote:
> >Every time a hear a discussion about giving away photographs (and
> >pricing in such a way as it's almost the same thing) this interview
> >with Harlan Ellison comes to mind:
> >
> >
> 
> That absolutely rocks.

Harlan is a master at the rant, and has great public speaking
delivery. He was guest of honor at a local sci fi con a while back,
and I even got personlly bitched out by him.

He took objection to the Pan Galactic Ghetto Blaster
http://red4est.com/pggb

And the fact that people were partying and making noise at a con after
he wanted to go to sleep at 9 or 10PM.

The pggb is a fun project. I wanted a portable sound system with
decent power and sound quality for dancing to, so I made a 100W/ch
boombox. I recently pulled the 35AH gelcell out of it, because it
could only run at reasonably high volume for about 45-50 minutes, so I
ended up never running it off the internal battery. So I pulled it and
saved 20lbs.

-- 
The fastest way to get your question answered on the net is to post
the wrong answer.
Larry Colen l...@red4est.comhttp://www.red4est.com/lrc


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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Fernando]

That was great

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 6:37 PM, David Savage  wrote:
> Every time a hear a discussion about giving away photographs (and
> pricing in such a way as it's almost the same thing) this interview
> with Harlan Ellison comes to mind:
>
> 
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave
>
> 2009/3/19 William Robb :
>> Repost from April 1, 2001.
>> Perhaps it bears repeating.
>>
>> Don't be a cheap whore, you won't get respected for it, and when
>> you want to graduate to being a high class whore, no one will be
>> willing to pay you for it. I have seen it happen before in my
>> under populated part of the world.
>> People will only value your work as much as you do.
>>
>> The guy I mentored with had a thriving weekend wedding business
>> going. In 1972, I started going out on paying jobs with him,
>> learning how to photograph weddings. By 1975, he had over a
>> dozen photographers working for him, shooting weddings. Over
>> time, these people started going out on their own, becoming
>> competition for the trade. Eventually, the market for wedding
>> photographers saturated to the point where my mentor decided to
>> become more competitive. He started dropping his prices. He is
>> now on welfare, and pretty god damned bitter about it.
>>
>> Being a cheap whore is always a mistake.
>>
>> People will pay quality money for what they percieve as a
>> quality job. By charging cheap, you are sending a message that
>> you don't think your work is worth their money. This is not a
>> strategy for long term business success.
>>
>> You want to know
>> what happens in markets where someone comes in and low balls the
>> available work? Everyone suffers for it. The photographers
>> suffer because some idiot is saying that photo portraiture isn't
>> worth paying for, and everyone has to drop their prices to
>> compete. The clients suffer because with the new, lower pricing,
>> quality suffers, because it isn't worthwhile to do a good job
>> anymore.
>
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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Mark Roberts]

David Savage wrote:

Every time a hear a discussion about giving away photographs (and
pricing in such a way as it's almost the same thing) this interview
with Harlan Ellison comes to mind:




That absolutely rocks.


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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Paul Stenquist"

Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?


Agreed. It just never occurred to me that I should, and I'm a bit 
surprised that no one has had a problem buying prints.


When I was still at the Wally-Lab I had several long and somewhat testy 
conversations with various of my co-drones about this very thing.
The theory was that we couldn't print "professional" work, my take was that 
if the photographer had put a disc of full resolution files into his 
customer's hands, he wasn't really in a position to enforce copyright, were 
he so inclined.
But, the fact that it even came up in conversation sensitized me to the 
problem that customers could run into with getting their own property 
printed if they ran into a sniveling idiot behind the counter.


William Robb 



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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Paul Stenquist]

Agreed. It just never occurred to me that I should, and I'm a bit  
surprised that no one has had a problem buying prints.

Paul
On Mar 19, 2009, at 6:22 PM, William Robb wrote:



- Original Message - From: "Paul Stenquist"
Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?


My brides have never had a problem getting prints from the files I  
provide. No release. Most labs don't question anyone who has  
original hi-res files.


It's still not a bad idea to embed a release into the files, and to  
give them a PDF release on the CD.


William Robb


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RE: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Bob W]

> Every time a hear a discussion about giving away photographs (and
> pricing in such a way as it's almost the same thing) this interview
> with Harlan Ellison comes to mind:
> 
> 
> 

Perfect.

Can I have my cheque now?

Bob


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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Paul Stenquist]

My brides have never had a problem getting prints from the files I  
provide. No release. Most labs don't question anyone who has original  
hi-res files.

Paul
On Mar 19, 2009, at 9:29 AM, John Mullan wrote:


John,

Take a long hard look at your costs including business licenses,  
taxes, materials, equipment, advertising and insurance.  How much is  
your time worth? You will be spending more time after the event than  
you imagine. Exposures of a bride in all white are harder to get  
right when you're a pro as opposed to a family member or friend.   
You cannot go back later and raise your price because it cost more  
than you think.  Even if all you do is deliver a disk you will have  
to package it attractively, just a jewel won't cut it. The client  
will need a release from you in order to get prints made if you are  
just delivering a disk and not selling prints.  We have finally  
gotten Wal-Mart et al to respect copyrights.


As for contracts there used to be a book available that came with a  
CD with boilerplate photographers contracts and model releases. I  
cannot remember the name. It got lost when we moved.


jm
- Original Message - From: "John Celio" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 9:28 PM
Subject: Wedding photography, starting price?


What do you guys think is a fair price to charge as a guy just  
getting started in wedding photography?


I was thinking $500 (US) as a base starting point, and going up  
depending on how involved the event is and if they want extensive  
editing and such. Is that reasonable, or too low?


Also, someone (Paul?) mentioned having a contract.  Where can I  
find reliable info on putting together a contract for this sort of  
thing?


Thanks for the help,
John

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[David Savage]

Every time a hear a discussion about giving away photographs (and
pricing in such a way as it's almost the same thing) this interview
with Harlan Ellison comes to mind:



Cheers,

Dave

2009/3/19 William Robb :
> Repost from April 1, 2001.
> Perhaps it bears repeating.
>
> Don't be a cheap whore, you won't get respected for it, and when
> you want to graduate to being a high class whore, no one will be
> willing to pay you for it. I have seen it happen before in my
> under populated part of the world.
> People will only value your work as much as you do.
>
> The guy I mentored with had a thriving weekend wedding business
> going. In 1972, I started going out on paying jobs with him,
> learning how to photograph weddings. By 1975, he had over a
> dozen photographers working for him, shooting weddings. Over
> time, these people started going out on their own, becoming
> competition for the trade. Eventually, the market for wedding
> photographers saturated to the point where my mentor decided to
> become more competitive. He started dropping his prices. He is
> now on welfare, and pretty god damned bitter about it.
>
> Being a cheap whore is always a mistake.
>
> People will pay quality money for what they percieve as a
> quality job. By charging cheap, you are sending a message that
> you don't think your work is worth their money. This is not a
> strategy for long term business success.
>
> You want to know
> what happens in markets where someone comes in and low balls the
> available work? Everyone suffers for it. The photographers
> suffer because some idiot is saying that photo portraiture isn't
> worth paying for, and everyone has to drop their prices to
> compete. The clients suffer because with the new, lower pricing,
> quality suffers, because it isn't worthwhile to do a good job
> anymore.

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Sullivan"

Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?



Matthew,
Sorry, I'm mentally handicapped today.
The contractor showed up at 7:30 AM with a crew of 6-10.
They are removing and re-shingling my roof.
It's gotten really bad now as they are nailing the new stuff on,
maching gun fashion.  :-(
If you think it's bad when the neighbor does it, or someone down the 
street,

You should try having them do it just over your head...


I tell people that the last place they want to be is in the house when their 
roof is being reshingled. It's enough to turn Einstein into a retard.


William Robb



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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Paul Stenquist"

Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?


My brides have never had a problem getting prints from the files I 
provide. No release. Most labs don't question anyone who has original 
hi-res files.


It's still not a bad idea to embed a release into the files, and to give 
them a PDF release on the CD.


William Robb


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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Bob Sullivan]

Matthew & Frank,
Thanks for the clarification.
And I was gonna do taxes today...
Regards,  Bob S.

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:03 PM, frank theriault
 wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:
>> Matthew,
>> Sorry, I'm mentally handicapped today.
>> The contractor showed up at 7:30 AM with a crew of 6-10.
>> They are removing and re-shingling my roof.
>> It's gotten really bad now as they are nailing the new stuff on,
>> maching gun fashion.  :-(
>> If you think it's bad when the neighbor does it, or someone down the street,
>> You should try having them do it just over your head...
>
> Bob, your post made perfect sense to me.
>
> Especially the part about "sadly, he's a Canon shooter..."
>
> ;-)
>
> cheers,
> frank
>
> --
> "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept."  -Henri Cartier-Bresson
>
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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[frank theriault]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:
> Matthew,
> Sorry, I'm mentally handicapped today.
> The contractor showed up at 7:30 AM with a crew of 6-10.
> They are removing and re-shingling my roof.
> It's gotten really bad now as they are nailing the new stuff on,
> maching gun fashion.  :-(
> If you think it's bad when the neighbor does it, or someone down the street,
> You should try having them do it just over your head...

Bob, your post made perfect sense to me.

Especially the part about "sadly, he's a Canon shooter..."

;-)

cheers,
frank

-- 
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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Matthew Hunt]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:
> Matthew,
> Sorry, I'm mentally handicapped today.

I was just kidding with you, because you gave a compliment to a Canon
shooter.  :-)

Best of luck with your contractors.

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Bob Sullivan]

Matthew,
Sorry, I'm mentally handicapped today.
The contractor showed up at 7:30 AM with a crew of 6-10.
They are removing and re-shingling my roof.
It's gotten really bad now as they are nailing the new stuff on,
maching gun fashion.  :-(
If you think it's bad when the neighbor does it, or someone down the street,
You should try having them do it just over your head...
Regards,  Bob S.

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Matthew Hunt  wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:
>
>> This guy is a good photographer
> ...
>> Sadly, he's a Canon shooter...
>
> Your story doesn't make any sense.
>
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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Matthew Hunt]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Bob Sullivan  wrote:

> This guy is a good photographer
...
> Sadly, he's a Canon shooter...

Your story doesn't make any sense.

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Bob Sullivan]

Bill,
I agree completely.
A local friend has a thriving wedding business,
but it was 'in the tank' late last year as bookings dried up for 3 months.
He charged a premium price and had 8 photogs working for him.
He did serious soul searching, tripled his advertising, and cut back
to 5 photogs.
(And he's back involved - hands on shooting the weddings.)
Bookings are back up and he's on track for 300+ events this year.
Getting his costs down was very important, but cutting price was never an issue.
And the customer and then their parents make multiple runs at getting
price reductions,
first the bride and groom negotiate a price, then the parent comes
back and wants a cut,
and even after the fact the bride's mother has said none of the 1,346
shots is any good!
(A sure precursor to asking for a reshoot or price cut.)
This guy is a good photographer and a good businessman.
It kills him to turn people away, but he does over price.
You pay him the full price, up front as a retainer and he holds the
date for you.
If dad refuses demanding a re-negotiated price, goes away, and returns
3 weeks later,
 the date is gone, sold out!
The attitude pays in repeat business for him.
Some of his most ornery negotiators show up 3 or 4 months after the wedding,
to book a date for the other daughter's wedding!:-)
Sadly, he's a Canon shooter...
Regards,  Bob S.

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 8:56 AM, William Robb  wrote:
> Repost from April 1, 2001.
> Perhaps it bears repeating.
>
> Don't be a cheap whore, you won't get respected for it, and when
> you want to graduate to being a high class whore, no one will be
> willing to pay you for it. I have seen it happen before in my
> under populated part of the world.
> People will only value your work as much as you do.
>
> The guy I mentored with had a thriving weekend wedding business
> going. In 1972, I started going out on paying jobs with him,
> learning how to photograph weddings. By 1975, he had over a
> dozen photographers working for him, shooting weddings. Over
> time, these people started going out on their own, becoming
> competition for the trade. Eventually, the market for wedding
> photographers saturated to the point where my mentor decided to
> become more competitive. He started dropping his prices. He is
> now on welfare, and pretty god damned bitter about it.
>
> Being a cheap whore is always a mistake.
>
> People will pay quality money for what they percieve as a
> quality job. By charging cheap, you are sending a message that
> you don't think your work is worth their money. This is not a
> strategy for long term business success.
>
> You want to know
> what happens in markets where someone comes in and low balls the
> available work? Everyone suffers for it. The photographers
> suffer because some idiot is saying that photo portraiture isn't
> worth paying for, and everyone has to drop their prices to
> compete. The clients suffer because with the new, lower pricing,
> quality suffers, because it isn't worthwhile to do a good job
> anymore.
>
>
>
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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[David J Brooks]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 11:32 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>
> - Original Message - From: "David J Brooks"
> Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?
>
>
>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:56 AM, William Robb  wrote:
>>>
>>> Repost from April 1, 2001.
>>> Perhaps it bears repeating.
>>>
>>> Don't be a cheap whore, you won't get respected for it, and when
>>> you want to graduate to being a high class whore, no one will be
>>> willing to pay you for it.
>>
>> If the wedding thing does not pan out for you, you can always go into
>> equine photography. I'm up to the $1.80-$2.20 and hour end of it now.
>>
>>
>
> See what happens?

Yup.

A lot of new faces out there now, charging less than the rest of us
that have been doing it for a while. Thats one of many reasons for the
lower sales i'm sure.
Net profit seems to be around $2-25 for a 10 hour day, and not
included is the Monday that is spent doing renames, pages etc.

I'm signing up for summer charters at Laidlaw. Its $30 minimum a day,
guaranteed so i'd already be ahead of the game.:-)

Dave
>
> William Robb
>
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-- 
Equine Photography
www.caughtinmotion.com
http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/
Ontario Canada

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Luiz Felipe]

Do a local check, get their prices and (if possible) samples of their 
work. Starting with a low price in the wedding business is not the way, 
IMHO - unless people in your area marry more times. Or you're looking 
for a low income client.


Plenty of sound advice already, insurance is a good idea, contracts very 
important. For me, either charge all the traffic will bear or give it 
free. But those are my 2cents...


LF

John Celio escreveu:
What do you guys think is a fair price to charge as a guy just getting 
started in wedding photography?


I was thinking $500 (US) as a base starting point, and going up 
depending on how involved the event is and if they want extensive 
editing and such.  Is that reasonable, or too low?


Also, someone (Paul?) mentioned having a contract.  Where can I find 
reliable info on putting together a contract for this sort of thing?


Thanks for the help,
John

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--
Luiz Felipe
luiz.felipe at techmit.com.br
http://techmit.com.br/luizfelipe/

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "David J Brooks"

Subject: Re: Wedding photography, starting price?



On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:56 AM, William Robb  wrote:

Repost from April 1, 2001.
Perhaps it bears repeating.

Don't be a cheap whore, you won't get respected for it, and when
you want to graduate to being a high class whore, no one will be
willing to pay you for it.


If the wedding thing does not pan out for you, you can always go into
equine photography. I'm up to the $1.80-$2.20 and hour end of it now.




See what happens?

William Robb

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[David J Brooks]

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:56 AM, William Robb  wrote:
> Repost from April 1, 2001.
> Perhaps it bears repeating.
>
> Don't be a cheap whore, you won't get respected for it, and when
> you want to graduate to being a high class whore, no one will be
> willing to pay you for it.

If the wedding thing does not pan out for you, you can always go into
equine photography. I'm up to the $1.80-$2.20 and hour end of it now.

Oh, Canadian $$'s BTW.

Dave


-- 
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www.caughtinmotion.com
http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/
Ontario Canada

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[frank theriault]

On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 11:10 PM, Paul Stenquist
 wrote:
> $500 is about right for a new wedding photographer supplying only files on
> DVD. You can find a wide range of wedding contracts on line. Just do an
> advanced search on Google.

That's about what I charged for my one and only (so far) wedding.
That was for the "formal posed family" shots at the celebration venue
(about an hour before the service) as well as the reception at the
celebration venue directly after the service (so no shlepping
equipment from place to place).

I provided the happy couple with the files a couple of weeks afterwards.

cheers,
frank

-- 
"Sharpness is a bourgeois concept."  -Henri Cartier-Bresson

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Bruce Dayton]

The other thing to do is find out what competitors near you are
charging.  You will find a wide range from low to high, but that will
give you a better idea what you CAN charge.  Lately with this
economy, I have seen myself and many others with bookings down and
people not willing to spend as much.  I have also seen more people
getting into the business.

There are two major aspects to do it well.  One is the technical
knowledge and skill to work the cameras and equipment.  The other is
the creative eye for posing and working with people.  The technical
skills can be learned and the newer electronics certainly help out
those who are not very knowledgeable.  The other is much more
difficult to learn.  You have to look at yourself and decide if you
are/can be creative in your posing and if you enjoy interacting with
people under pressure (or at least tolerate it well).

-- 
Best regards,
Bruce


Thursday, March 19, 2009, 6:29:02 AM, you wrote:

JM> John,

JM> Take a long hard look at your costs including business licenses, taxes,
JM> materials, equipment, advertising and insurance.  How much is your time
JM> worth? You will be spending more time after the event than you imagine.
JM> Exposures of a bride in all white are harder to get right when you're a pro
JM> as opposed to a family member or friend.  You cannot go back later and raise
JM> your price because it cost more than you think.  Even if all you do is
JM> deliver a disk you will have to package it attractively, just a jewel won't
JM> cut it. The client will need a release from you in order to get prints made
JM> if you are just delivering a disk and not selling prints.  We have finally
JM> gotten Wal-Mart et al to respect copyrights.

JM> As for contracts there used to be a book available that came with a CD with
JM> boilerplate photographers contracts and model releases. I cannot remember
JM> the name. It got lost when we moved.

JM> jm
JM> - Original Message - 
JM> From: "John Celio" 
JM> To: 
JM> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 9:28 PM
JM> Subject: Wedding photography, starting price?


>> What do you guys think is a fair price to charge as a guy just getting 
>> started in wedding photography?
>>
>> I was thinking $500 (US) as a base starting point, and going up depending 
>> on how involved the event is and if they want extensive editing and such. 
>> Is that reasonable, or too low?
>>
>> Also, someone (Paul?) mentioned having a contract.  Where can I find 
>> reliable info on putting together a contract for this sort of thing?
>>
>> Thanks for the help,
>> John
>>
>> --
>> http://www.neovenator.com
>> http://www.cafepress.com/calemp
>> http://www.cafepress.com/neovenatorphoto
>>
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>> follow the directions.
>> 


JM> --
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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[William Robb]

Repost from April 1, 2001.
Perhaps it bears repeating.

Don't be a cheap whore, you won't get respected for it, and when
you want to graduate to being a high class whore, no one will be
willing to pay you for it. I have seen it happen before in my
under populated part of the world.
People will only value your work as much as you do.

The guy I mentored with had a thriving weekend wedding business
going. In 1972, I started going out on paying jobs with him,
learning how to photograph weddings. By 1975, he had over a
dozen photographers working for him, shooting weddings. Over
time, these people started going out on their own, becoming
competition for the trade. Eventually, the market for wedding
photographers saturated to the point where my mentor decided to
become more competitive. He started dropping his prices. He is
now on welfare, and pretty god damned bitter about it.

Being a cheap whore is always a mistake.

People will pay quality money for what they percieve as a
quality job. By charging cheap, you are sending a message that
you don't think your work is worth their money. This is not a
strategy for long term business success.

You want to know
what happens in markets where someone comes in and low balls the
available work? Everyone suffers for it. The photographers
suffer because some idiot is saying that photo portraiture isn't
worth paying for, and everyone has to drop their prices to
compete. The clients suffer because with the new, lower pricing,
quality suffers, because it isn't worthwhile to do a good job
anymore.



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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[John Mullan]

John,

Take a long hard look at your costs including business licenses, taxes, 
materials, equipment, advertising and insurance.  How much is your time 
worth? You will be spending more time after the event than you imagine. 
Exposures of a bride in all white are harder to get right when you're a pro 
as opposed to a family member or friend.  You cannot go back later and raise 
your price because it cost more than you think.  Even if all you do is 
deliver a disk you will have to package it attractively, just a jewel won't 
cut it. The client will need a release from you in order to get prints made 
if you are just delivering a disk and not selling prints.  We have finally 
gotten Wal-Mart et al to respect copyrights.


As for contracts there used to be a book available that came with a CD with 
boilerplate photographers contracts and model releases. I cannot remember 
the name. It got lost when we moved.


jm
- Original Message - 
From: "John Celio" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 9:28 PM
Subject: Wedding photography, starting price?


What do you guys think is a fair price to charge as a guy just getting 
started in wedding photography?


I was thinking $500 (US) as a base starting point, and going up depending 
on how involved the event is and if they want extensive editing and such. 
Is that reasonable, or too low?


Also, someone (Paul?) mentioned having a contract.  Where can I find 
reliable info on putting together a contract for this sort of thing?


Thanks for the help,
John

--
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http://www.cafepress.com/calemp
http://www.cafepress.com/neovenatorphoto

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Re: Wedding photography, starting price?

[Paul Stenquist]

$500 is about right for a new wedding photographer supplying only  
files on DVD. You can find a wide range of wedding contracts on line.  
Just do an advanced search on Google.

Paul
On Mar 18, 2009, at 9:28 PM, John Celio wrote:

What do you guys think is a fair price to charge as a guy just  
getting started in wedding photography?


I was thinking $500 (US) as a base starting point, and going up  
depending on how involved the event is and if they want extensive  
editing and such.  Is that reasonable, or too low?


Also, someone (Paul?) mentioned having a contract.  Where can I find  
reliable info on putting together a contract for this sort of thing?


Thanks for the help,
John

--
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http://www.cafepress.com/calemp
http://www.cafepress.com/neovenatorphoto

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