Re: Photo students today - equipment
The OP has not come through to my inbox yet, so I reply to this one. :-) Mark, what's the primary focus for the course? Is it technically inclined or towards arts and visual communication? Jostein Den 29. september 2016 23.02.30 CEST, skrev Mark Roberts : >Igor PDML-StR wrote: > >> >>Those are curious facts, but there are several important questions >>that need to be addessed before any conclusions (or even suggestions) >can >>be made: >>1. What type of class that is and for whom? >>(e.g. an introduction to major for espiring photographers vs. one of >the >>"election" classes for "far-from-major"-s) >> >>2. For most of those numbers his is not a statistically representative > >>case. So, very few clear conclusions can be made (Except that the >class is >>happening, and you've got some studnets who are likely to be >interested in >>photography). With just a dozen of students, the statistical error is >>Sqrt(12) ~= 3.5 So, +/- 3.5 person is your "error bars" for each of >the >>numbers you mentioned. (I.e. 0 +/- 3.5 with mirrorless, 0 +/- 3.5 with > >>4/3rds, 2 +/- 3.5 with P&S, etc.) >> >>And that 3.5 out of 12 is close to 30%. It means that if you were to >teach >>this class again and again, and no other factors would change, >>on average you might expect up to 30% of students with mirrorless and >up >>to 30% - with 4/3rds, and up to 45% with P&S. >>Not that "black and white" anymore, isn't it? > >I never said it was black and white. I'm just putting out a small >sample of what's going on. > >As the course name "Digital Photography II" implies, this is a >second-level course. (I bet you can guess as to what the prerequisite >course might be called.) It's purely elective for all majors. > >What was more telling to me than the cameras being used was that none >of the students had even *heard* of mirrorless cameras. Or the >Four-Thirds system. It will, as you say, be interesting to see how >this plays out over the coming semesters when I get a bigger sample >size. > >As for the percentage who show up with P&S cameras, rather than going >up to 45% it should drop closer 0% after we have the requirement of an >interchangeable lens camera mentioned in the course description in the >catalog currently they don't know until they show up for the first >class and get the syllabus. > -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo students today - equipment
It depends on the definition of the word "smart". I would differentiate between "smart" and "wise". Kids might lack the experience. And it is the experience that contributes (or rather, may contribute) to wisdom. And then, there could be an additional vector called "knowledge", which is also based on some specialized experience. I.e. "knowledge" is a specialized version of wisdom. So, coming back to your statement, Larry: Those kids could be as smart as they think; they just may not have a chance to become [as] wise. Igor Larry Colen Thu, 29 Sep 2016 19:36:06 -0700 wrote: Igor PDML-StR wrote: Bipin Gupta Thu, 29 Sep 2016 18:10:15 -0700 wrote: Kids are very very smart today ... Indeed, except that they always are. (i.e. smarter then some [grand]parents expect) And almost as smart as they think they are. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo students today - equipment
Igor PDML-StR wrote: Bipin Gupta Thu, 29 Sep 2016 18:10:15 -0700 wrote: Kids are very very smart today ... Indeed, except that they always are. (i.e. smarter then some [grand]parents expect) And almost as smart as they think they are. -- Larry Colen l...@red4est.com (postbox on min4est) http://red4est.com/lrc -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo students today - equipment
Bipin Gupta Thu, 29 Sep 2016 18:10:15 -0700 wrote: Kids are very very smart today ... Indeed, except that they always are. (i.e. smarter then some [grand]parents expect) And here is "proof of the pudding" - my grand daughter is three & a half years old - she insists I let her have my Pentax K-5 IIs to take a "pretend" photo. She does not want her Mom's Hi End Canon P&S. She's already asked her Mom, and got a firm "No!". She is smart (see above) and knows that the grandpa is a sucker for a cute smile and he is less likely to refuse. Besides, an SLR looks much more "presentable" (from its sheer size/mass). Cheers, Igor -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo students today - equipment
Igor PDML-StR wrote: >As for your and others being surprised about your students not hearing >about 4/3rds or mirrorless, I can offer one (out of multiple) possible >explanation. My good old friend whose daughter is roughly of the age of >your students wanted to buy a reasonable camera for his family trip, and >then for his daughter to take for her study-abroad program in China. >Not being involved much in photography since his student years, he >automatically thought about SLRs (obviously digital, as he's heard about >that). Because in his mind there were P&S's and [D]SLR's. I pointed out to >him some of the 4/3rds cameras, and he was surprised and happy, as those >offered him (and his daughter who was skeptical about DSL's weight) much >lighter photo bag, with the quality and amount of control more than >sufficient for his needs. > >I wouldn't be surprised if some of your student's decision for/information >about the camera could've been influenced in some similar way by their >parents. This is pretty much what I surmised: Unless they have an (older) family member who's a photography enthusiast, mirrorless and 4/3 simply don't exist as far as college-age kids are concerned. -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo students today - equipment
Mark, I was not referring to you when mentioning a "black and white" picture. Rather I was cautioning a potential reader of the information you've provided. (And other PDMLers have already started speculating about the absence/small quantity of certain categories.) As for your and others being surprised about your students not hearing about 4/3rds or mirrorless, I can offer one (out of multiple) possible explanation. My good old friend whose daughter is roughly of the age of your students wanted to buy a reasonable camera for his family trip, and then for his daughter to take for her study-abroad program in China. Not being involved much in photography since his student years, he automatically thought about SLRs (obviously digital, as he's heard about that). Because in his mind there were P&S's and [D]SLR's. I pointed out to him some of the 4/3rds cameras, and he was surprised and happy, as those offered him (and his daughter who was skeptical about DSL's weight) much lighter photo bag, with the quality and amount of control more than sufficient for his needs. I wouldn't be surprised if some of your student's decision for/information about the camera could've been influenced in some similar way by their parents. Additionally, my personal (very subjective) impression is that in the past 2-3 years, the term "4/3rds" is not highlighted in the advertisement as much as it was when it was first introduced. And even the term "mirrorless" is not pushed forward too much in the advertisement for the mirrorless cameras. Igor Mark Roberts Thu, 29 Sep 2016 14:04:33 -0700 wrote: Igor PDML-StR wrote: And that 3.5 out of 12 is close to 30%. It means that if you were to teach this class again and again, and no other factors would change, on average you might expect up to 30% of students with mirrorless and up to 30% - with 4/3rds, and up to 45% with P&S. Not that "black and white" anymore, isn't it? I never said it was black and white. I'm just putting out a small sample of what's going on. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo students today - equipment
Igor PDML-StR wrote: > >Those are curious facts, but there are several important questions >that need to be addessed before any conclusions (or even suggestions) can >be made: >1. What type of class that is and for whom? >(e.g. an introduction to major for espiring photographers vs. one of the >"election" classes for "far-from-major"-s) > >2. For most of those numbers his is not a statistically representative >case. So, very few clear conclusions can be made (Except that the class is >happening, and you've got some studnets who are likely to be interested in >photography). With just a dozen of students, the statistical error is >Sqrt(12) ~= 3.5 So, +/- 3.5 person is your "error bars" for each of the >numbers you mentioned. (I.e. 0 +/- 3.5 with mirrorless, 0 +/- 3.5 with >4/3rds, 2 +/- 3.5 with P&S, etc.) > >And that 3.5 out of 12 is close to 30%. It means that if you were to teach >this class again and again, and no other factors would change, >on average you might expect up to 30% of students with mirrorless and up >to 30% - with 4/3rds, and up to 45% with P&S. >Not that "black and white" anymore, isn't it? I never said it was black and white. I'm just putting out a small sample of what's going on. As the course name "Digital Photography II" implies, this is a second-level course. (I bet you can guess as to what the prerequisite course might be called.) It's purely elective for all majors. What was more telling to me than the cameras being used was that none of the students had even *heard* of mirrorless cameras. Or the Four-Thirds system. It will, as you say, be interesting to see how this plays out over the coming semesters when I get a bigger sample size. As for the percentage who show up with P&S cameras, rather than going up to 45% it should drop closer 0% after we have the requirement of an interchangeable lens camera mentioned in the course description in the catalog currently they don't know until they show up for the first class and get the syllabus. -- Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo students today - equipment
Those are curious facts, but there are several important questions that need to be addessed before any conclusions (or even suggestions) can be made: 1. What type of class that is and for whom? (e.g. an introduction to major for espiring photographers vs. one of the "election" classes for "far-from-major"-s) 2. For most of those numbers his is not a statistically representative case. So, very few clear conclusions can be made (Except that the class is happening, and you've got some studnets who are likely to be interested in photography). With just a dozen of students, the statistical error is Sqrt(12) ~= 3.5 So, +/- 3.5 person is your "error bars" for each of the numbers you mentioned. (I.e. 0 +/- 3.5 with mirrorless, 0 +/- 3.5 with 4/3rds, 2 +/- 3.5 with P&S, etc.) And that 3.5 out of 12 is close to 30%. It means that if you were to teach this class again and again, and no other factors would change, on average you might expect up to 30% of students with mirrorless and up to 30% - with 4/3rds, and up to 45% with P&S. Not that "black and white" anymore, isn't it? Playing a party pooper, Igor ;-) On Sep 27, 2016, at 6:14 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: A brief survey of the students in my "Digital Photography II" class, from an equipment standpoint: There are a dozen students in this class. 2 started out with point & shoot cameras (but are getting DSLRs for the course) 10 came into the course already owning DSLRs All Canon or Nikon All APS-C format DSLRs No mirrorless No Four-Thirds cameras None of the students has even heard of mirrorless cameras 2 students knew about raw files (one of whom shoots raw already) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo students today - equipment
On 9/27/2016 6:14 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: A brief survey of the students in my "Digital Photography II" class, from an equipment standpoint: There are a dozen students in this class. 2 started out with point & shoot cameras (but are getting DSLRs for the course) 10 came into the course already owning DSLRs All Canon or Nikon All APS-C format DSLRs No mirrorless No Four-Thirds cameras None of the students has even heard of mirrorless cameras 2 students knew about raw files (one of whom shoots raw already) Point & shoot cameras aren't that bad if they have some way to manually select aperture/shutter speed and a way to adjust exposure compensation (or better yet a manual mode that allows full control). But, if only 2 of them even knew what raw files were, I kind of wonder what were they taught in Digital Photography I? -- Science - Questions we may never find answers for. Religion - Answers we must never question. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo students today - equipment
The first photography course I took, the students had a truly motley collection of equipment, back then anything beyond a 126 or 110 Instamatic, that was affordable was pretty much a manual camera, there were of course some automatic exposure cameras but they were actually much more expensive than pure mechanical cameras. By the end of the course everyone had an SLR, except for the guy that started out with a Nikon RF The fact that most of your students actually have their own DSLRs is I would think be heartening. At least they've got basic equipment that can be used to teach them something. The fact that they don't even know what Mirrorless systems are makes me think that the Mirrorless revolution is a bit over hyped. The fact that none of them have a Pentax makes me a little sad. As an aside I visited my local, (well 25 miles away from where I sit typing this), camera store last week, and they expressed two things to me, (one), they really want to carry Pentax but, (two), Pentax doesn't seem to have any real sales presence east of the Mississippi in the U.S., except for places like Adorama, and B&H. Wanting to carry Pentax is a big change for them from a couple of years ago. On 9/27/2016 6:14 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: A brief survey of the students in my "Digital Photography II" class, from an equipment standpoint: There are a dozen students in this class. 2 started out with point & shoot cameras (but are getting DSLRs for the course) 10 came into the course already owning DSLRs All Canon or Nikon All APS-C format DSLRs No mirrorless No Four-Thirds cameras None of the students has even heard of mirrorless cameras 2 students knew about raw files (one of whom shoots raw already) -- I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. -- Woody Allen -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo students today - equipment
So much for being up-to-date. Do they know what pen and paper are? =Fountain= pen and =ink=? Film??? Rick the curmudgeon On Sep 27, 2016, at 6:14 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: > A brief survey of the students in my "Digital Photography II" class, > from an equipment standpoint: > > There are a dozen students in this class. > 2 started out with point & shoot cameras (but are getting DSLRs for > the course) > 10 came into the course already owning DSLRs > All Canon or Nikon > All APS-C format DSLRs > No mirrorless > No Four-Thirds cameras > None of the students has even heard of mirrorless cameras > 2 students knew about raw files (one of whom shoots raw already) > > -- > Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia > www.robertstech.com > > > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. http://photo.net/photos/RickW -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo students today - equipment
the world needs a digital K1000 On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Mark Roberts wrote: > A brief survey of the students in my "Digital Photography II" class, > from an equipment standpoint: > > There are a dozen students in this class. > 2 started out with point & shoot cameras (but are getting DSLRs for > the course) > 10 came into the course already owning DSLRs > All Canon or Nikon > All APS-C format DSLRs > No mirrorless > No Four-Thirds cameras > None of the students has even heard of mirrorless cameras > 2 students knew about raw files (one of whom shoots raw already) > > -- > Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia > www.robertstech.com > > > > > > -- > PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List > PDML@pdml.net > http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net > to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow > the directions. -- Documenting Life in Rural Ontario. www.caughtinmotion.com http://brooksinthecountry.blogspot.com/ York Region, Ontario, Canada -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
Re: Photo students today - equipment
Is this an intro course and what are the objectives of the course? Is there an equipment requirement for the course? Not suprised about the lack of knowledge of mirrorless cameras. -Original Message- >From: Mark Roberts Subject: Photo students today - equipment > >A brief survey of the students in my "Digital Photography II" class, >from an equipment standpoint: > >There are a dozen students in this class. >2 started out with point & shoot cameras (but are getting DSLRs for >the course) >10 came into the course already owning DSLRs >All Canon or Nikon >All APS-C format DSLRs >No mirrorless >No Four-Thirds cameras >None of the students has even heard of mirrorless cameras >2 students knew about raw files (one of whom shoots raw already) > >-- >Mark Roberts - Photography & Multimedia >www.robertstech.com -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow the directions.
