Re: Persian UTF-8 MySql collation

[C Bobroff]

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> There is no other software known to
> the community that does Persian Unicode software properly without using
> either of those.

If you're talking about sorting, it was recently pointed out (see
archives) that Windows server 2003 can sort Persian properly.

-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

[C Bobroff]

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

>  we are *specifying* a single way to do
> things.

Why the 2 calendars then?
-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

[C Bobroff]

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> The bottom line:  Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are
> people printing that thing in reality.

Behdad,
I'm so glad you also now see that to *forbid* marking ezaafe in personal
names is absurd.
Have a really nice day!
-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

[C Bobroff]

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote:

> Sure. No argument about that. "ye badal az kasre" is used, as we all
> know, when the first word ends in "aa", "oo", "unpronounced Heh", ...

Ok, I'm going to update my website with info on marking the ezaafe
one of these days. I'll submit it for flame-testing when done. Hang on for
that.

> BTW, talking about "unpronounced Heh", recently I found out that in the
> first year of school, they don't call it like that any more. They call
> it "e-ye aakher".

I believe in other languages (maybe Kazakh??) there is some Unicode debate
going on right now about this letter which can appear in the middle of a
word in those languages. This may be part of the "ae" problem. I'm not
sure.

-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

[C Bobroff]

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote:

> >http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg
> >
> Only one name comes with "ye badal az kasre", which is a bit odd. It
> might be a typo in her name or in her ID.

Concerning the Hamze Above instead of Kasre, I was just wanting to show
that the "-e"  (ezaafe) is written as well as spoken.  The ezafe on words
ending with unpronounced Heh (as in Ma`sumeh) is marked  either as
Heh+Hamze Above or Heh+ZWNJ+Yeh and in words ending with pronounced Heh
(as in Roozbeh) is marked with Kasre. Again, in the case of personal
names, the ezaafe is sometimes pronounced and sometimes not pronounced.
This is also sometimes optionally reflected in the writing.

I was told to give examples of the ezaafe written in personal names. I
don't think that was supposed to be limited to only when ezaafe is marked
with kasre. I might have misunderstood your comment though!

-Connie
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Re: OT: On computing, in Persian

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> There is a chance that you are encountering a Tahoma's hinting bug that
> drops the bottom Noghte of Peh in certain sizes.

You were right. So there WAS another Yeh problem!
-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> don't pronounce them, but I agree that there are times that we do
> and there should be some trick in there.  Still looking for the
> trick.

ok, please figure out when you do and when you don't say the exact same
name. That's what I'm after more than anything!

-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> Come on Connie, you're still to provide a real example, from the
> books or streets whatever.

The "streets" stuff was a joke and I'm afraid I led Ordak on--no pun
intended-- a wild-goose chase, (sorry!) but here are some from published
books:

http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNRahimEM.jpg
http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNNaaserEKh.jpg
http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
> Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.

Do a google search for "pashto perso-arabic" to see that many authors
think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script.

Then do a google search for "pashto arabic script" and you'll see with
just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic
script or called *Perso-Arabic.*

If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply "Arabic script."

-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> I don't see any zillions, hardly a handul of them for your two
> examples.  Compare with... errr..

I meant on the internet there are zillions. I chose only two which is now
two more than the total you admit to having seen in your entire
life.

-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> > Our library is closed all weekend as we're on quarter break but I'll scan
> > a few covers for you on Monday. Maybe not until evening though.
>
> Eagerly waiting for them.

As I said, I'm not even looking in books till this evening, however, even
though someone was recently saying Google can't handle harakat, I decided
to try my luck and the first name I tried, "Shirin-e Ebadi" gave me this:
http://www.kanoon-nevisandegan-iran.org/Shirin.htm
(look in the second line of text)

Another:
http://www.vajehmagazine.com/archive/no_2/dialog.asp
(line 15: Sohraab-e Sepehri)

There are zillions. How many examples will you guys be needing?

-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Behnam wrote:

>  When census and
> registry people (roughly translated) knocked the door of my great grand
> parents to issue piece of identification, each of the four brothers
> picked a different family name!
Funny! Thanks for sharing.

> But I still think that Ordak made the best effort to come with some
> rules.
Yes, I think we can say Ordak was the first to attempt to document this
phenomenon!  I do not accept any of your other excuses as to why no one
else has ever attempted this study though.

-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

> Rule 1: The following rules only apply when first name is followed by last name
Most scientific.

> Rule 2: Do not add ksare ezafe at the end of names foreign origin,
> even if they come from a Persian speaking country, e.g. Ahmad Shah
> Masoud.
Evidence from the streets does not support you.

> Rule 3: Do not add kasre ezaafe at the end of first names ending with
> vowels, e.g., Ali, Minoo, Saba, Reza, Kaveh. However, adding a YEH +
> KASRE is sometimes done only for dramatic effects. For example,
> pronounce Ali Heydari as written, but it is acceptable (but not
> customary) to pronounce as Ali Ye Heydari.

Yeh+kasre is ok in non-dramatic situations, too.
You're definitely correct about the Alif-ending first names.

> Rule 4: Do pronounce a weak, almost unnoticeable kasre ezafe at the
> end of first names ending with a consonant.
Ezafeh in general (not just in names) is not allowed to be stressed ever.
This is one of the properties of the Ezafeh.

Nice of you to work on the problem, Ordak. It seems the same people who
saved a lot of money not making a Persian font also saved even more money
by not making a complete documented linguistic description of Persian nor
any [good quality] textbooks and [complete] grammars. Great that so much
money was saved!

-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> You would say Omar Khayyam and also say Hafez-e Shirazi.

Hehe. I've recently seen Omar-e Khayyam in the middle of some text (not on
the decorative front cover) written with Kasre. Too bad I forgot where it
was...
-Connie
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Re: OT: On computing, in Persian

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> used a really weird language that may be interesting for some members
> here.

Very weird indeed!
BTW, what's with this new usage of replacing "Peh" with "Yeh." Do we not
have enough Yeh problems as it is?

>http://www.sharghnewspaper.com/830323/idea.htm#s68703


-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Elnaz Sarbar wrote:

> They are hard because they have really "never" seen anyone puts Kasre in
> personal names. Neither do I. It "is" sometimes pronounced but almost
> never written.

OK, a sane person enters.

Since you have at least *heard* it, please see if you can find a pattern
as to WHEN it is said.  Really, the speech-to-text people may thank you.
For example, how is it that the same person, in the same speech will say,
"Ahmad Shamlu mord." Then a few seconds later say, "Ahmad-e Shamlu,
nevisandeh-ye borzorg..."
What are the conditions involved? I suspect it follows strict natural laws
of linguistics, and of course influenced by mood and style.
I just want to know what they are!

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft (fwd)

[C Bobroff]

(I'm forwarding this on behalf of someone with mailer problems.)

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:58:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Arash Zeini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Connie Bobroff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

In a message dated Sunday 13 June 2004 04:43, Michael Everson wrote:

> >  > > Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.
> >
> >>  No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in
> >> "Perso-Arabic script."
>
> Not since the 19th century.
>
> >  > You can also say "a modified form of the Arabic script" but that
> >  > is what is meant by "Perso-Arabic script." Just "Arabic script"
> > only > applies to the Arabic language.
>
> This is not correct.

Hi Connie,

This is Arash Zeini. I have a problem with my SMTP server and hence can
not send email from my regular account. So I am not posting this to the
ML, but feel free to forward my comment below it to the list.

I have not been following the discussion very tightly, but I think that
Mr. Everson misunderstood the context of the discussion. I can confirm
that you are right. In linguistic circles "Perso-Arabic script" is used to
refer to the modified Arabic script used in Iran to write Farsi (Persian).

Greetings,
Arash




__
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

Hi Michael again after a long time,
You've unfortunately been CC'd in the middle of a conversation on *locale
requirements* not unicode level encoding.
You are correct and encouraged to put Persian in with Arabic for unicode
purposes.

At the level of the current conversation, however, modern standard Persian
is written in the *Perso-Arabic script.* Urdu is also written in the
Perso-Arabic
script. (Urdu is NOT written in the Perso-Arabic-Urdu script.) Arabic is
written in the Arabic script. Various North African
languages and dialects are written in a modified Arabic script.

Please don't consider the letter "Beh." Think about the Yeh, the Keheh,
numbers 4,5,6, Heh+Hamzeh Above, ZWNJ, some punctuation, sorting.  I'm not
talking about calligraphic styles here.  It is ok to just say "Arabic
script" if you are simply differentiating it from Japanese and Latin. But
at the level of Locale specs, you need to be more precise so as to reflect
the additions and modifications of the original Arabic script from which
it was derived.

Since this locale information is being written in Persian, it can be
assumed that the Persian readers know the script they are reading the info
in has some additions and modifications. However, for an internatinal
audience,  (not the unicode level), it is necessary to make it clear that
modern Persian is not written in the same exact script as modern Arabic.
I don't think it is *too much* wishful thinking that non-Persian experts
will want / need to consult this document.

Again, you got dragged into something without context. That's why I"m not
replying to you point-by-point.

-Connie

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Michael Everson wrote:

> At 15:43 +0430 2004-06-13, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
> >I wish to restate my position. I'm CC-ing Michael Everson, a Unicode
> >expert in script naming. Michael, would you please tell us if Connie is
> >right here?
> >
> >On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 00:49, C Bobroff wrote:
> >  > > Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.
> >>
> >>  No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in "Perso-Arabic
> >>  script."
>
> Not since the 19th century.
>
> >  > You can also say "a modified form of the Arabic script" but that
> >  > is what is meant by "Perso-Arabic script." Just "Arabic script" only
> >  > applies to the Arabic language.
>
> This is not correct.
>
> What Ms Bobroff is doing is confusing character and glyph, I believe.
> It us true that the Arabic script has many variant styles, but this
> does not mean that those styles are or should be encoded as different
> characters. The ARABIC LETTER BEH which is used in Arabic, Persian,
> Urdu, Pashto, Sindhi, Kurdish, Kashmiri, Malay, Balochi, Uzbek,
> Kazakh, Uighur, etc. is the SAME intrinsic character in all of them.
> It has right-to-left directionality. It has a nominal, initial,
> medial, and final form which connects to other letters.
>
> Arabic script can be written or otherwise displayed in a number of
> styles, such as Kufi, Nastaliq, Naskh, and Maghrebi. But all
> varieties are ways of writing the same essential characters, and
> because of that, it is correct to speak of only one "script".
> --
> Michael Everson * * Everson Typography *  * http://www.evertype.com
>
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Re: khaat e Farsi

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

>As far as I know, more are returning
> to the Persian codes since standard software support is getting better.
My point was that they are using the Arabic counterparts of Persian
letters when that is not *technically* absolutely necessary right at this
moment.
So, on a happy note, one can say that religious/political motives have
taken a back seat in favor of ease of communication/web accessibility
issues.
-Connie
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Re: Personal names survey

[C Bobroff]

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> To be honest, I have NEVER seen anyone put Kasre in personal
> names.

You have! You just didn't notice. You also put them (i.e. pronounce the
ezaafe) in personal names when speaking which you also don't notice.

Our library is closed all weekend as we're on quarter break but I'll scan
a few covers for you on Monday. Maybe not until evening though.

I may or may not also record some audio of the same thing off the internet
for you. Luckily some nice person has just taught me the secrets of
streaming audio.

-Connie


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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> > Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu?
>
> Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.

No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in "Perso-Arabic
script." You can also say "a modified form of the Arabic script" but that
is what is meant by "Perso-Arabic script." Just "Arabic script" only
applies to the Arabic language.  Your Persian-knowing readers of the draft
will know what you mean if you just say "khatt-e `arabi" however, I
recommend you put "Perso-Arabic script" (in English)  or "modified Arabic
script"  so that if the draft gets translated into some other language,
the people less familiar with Persian will understand and that will make
its way back into the translation.

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

>  Many
> other things may also be optional (like how to write "ordibehesht",
> "zi-hajje", or "hejdah"), but we are only allowing one,

There is no comparison between these and the personal name topic.
You are giving incomplete and wrong information.
And you have every right to do so too so don't let me stop you. However,
now that I've pointed it out, I know that even though I'm not going
to say another word on this topic, you'll fix it. How do I know? I've come
to know your ways very well after so many years. You'll see.

> > "all the time". Sorry!
>
> Then you need to define all the time. I don't see a Kasra in the
> author's name on this book that is sitting on my desk.

Well, "all the time" does not, in fact, mean "all the time" in English.
It just means "all the time." You know, a synonym for "sometimes!"
Why do you have to always be so hard on the poor molla from Qazvin?

-Connie
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Re: khaat e Farsi

[C Bobroff]

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

> Assuming the
> heated reaction we saw here is an indication of the possible general
> public reaction,

How do you account for the preference for Arabic Yeh and Kaf by 99.9%
of the populatation. Do you think they're even going to read the draft?

-Connie
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Re: khatt e Farsi -- was khaat e Farsi

[C Bobroff]

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:

>  The first time we
> tried to approach High Council of Informatics "showraaye aaliye
> anformaatik" to discuss a Unicode proposal, they were against using
> Unicode, just because the letters were named "Arabic letter ...". They
> were of course mistaken, and it took a long time and effort to achieve
> their support.

Really? Amazing story. Thank you for the "bit of history."

Well, if it is too unpalatable to say "khatt-e 'arabi," then just say
"Perso-Arabic script" in English or don't say it at all. I don't think
there is too much danger of people thinking we're speaking of Cuneiform
(khatt-e mikhi) which is what in other contexts may spring to mind if you
say "khatt-e farsi."  By all means, get the draft written so that the
technical problems may be solved!

I think Behdad is sitting somewhere right now wondering if he should add
this topic to the Persian vs.  Farsi war!

-Connie

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Re: khaat e Farsi

[C Bobroff]

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

> I am confused! [snip]

Gang, I'm afraid this conversation is like a boat which has come loose
from its moorings and is now lost on the high seas straying where the four
winds will take it.

I believe Roozbeh, while typing the document was attempting to translate
"Perso-Arabic script" into Persian. Not an easy job.  I recommend for the
final draft, you say "khatt-e 'arabi" and then in parentheses or footnote,
just put the English (Perso-Arabic script). I don't think that for the
purposes of this draft you need to get into the history of the
calligraphic styles and orthographic conventions.

-Connie

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

I just got this calendar from Iran in the mail:

http://students.washington.edu/irina/cal.jpg

I guess this  orientation is more popular than I thought. I find
it too hard to use since I'm used to the more common arrangement (i.e.
across the top and then top to bottom) but obviously people do like and
prefer this other way.

Good thing you included both in the draft!

-Connie

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> The draft is trying to specify *the one way* (or, well, *a* single way).
You can not specify one way in this case with personal names when it is
optional.
(Except names ending in long /-aa/.)

> Software localization for Persian may not be a great medium to celebrate
> diversity with.
I understand.

> So the draft may either require it, or forbid it. We preferred to forbid
> it.
You don't have to require or forbid, you may say "acceptable" or "common".

> >  I see that written, especially
> > for authors on book titles all time.
> "all time"?!

"all the time". Sorry!

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 08:42, C Bobroff wrote:
> > No kidding, you really typed all those Hamzeh's all by yourself??
>
> Yes. Why are you wondering?
Never mind! I don't want to appear as if complaining!

> > And my next
> > question is going to be, "when?"
>
> I'm not sure. It really depends on the mood or the speed of speaking.

Ok, I think that's as precise as we're going to get for now. I admit, I
hear it more in slow, deliberate, formal speeches than in everyday
conversation. (Besides Behdad's example of usage in response to "which?")
And it's definitely seen in written form, especially on book covers.
I think I better scan one to keep on hand!


> > That should keep you busy for a while!
> You were wrong. ;)
Yes, I guess so!
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Re: Kasre Ezafe in proper names, Was Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran

[C Bobroff]

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> Ok, as I said in another mail, you say "behdaad-e esfahbod" when
> you want to differentiate from "behdaad-e pournader".  Just that.

Akh!  Good night, I'm going homeMaybe a sane
person who knows the "-e" is used all the time in names will reply during
the night.

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> I tried doing it in the Academy's style,
It's hard to keep up with their whims!

No kidding, you really typed all those Hamzeh's all by yourself??

> Please note that the specification doesn't discuss pronunciations at
> all. That only happens in one case (toman), where it better serves as a
> footnote.

FYI from the Oxford English Dictionary:
pronounce, verb.
I.2. To declare aloud, proclaim, announce, make known;...
II. 5.  To give utterance to; to utter, speak, articulate (a word or
words); b. With reference to the mode of pronunciation of a letter, syllable,
word, or language

I'm only using "pronounce" as synonym of "say" (I.2) and you're thinking
"talaffoz." (II.5)

> If that doesn't answer your question, please ask it in a different way
> ;)

Well, you were very helpful with the "ghash-gir" topic so what is
your problem here?  Here, I will ask this: Do you agree that
sometimes you say, "behdaad-e esfahbod" and other times you say, "behdaad
esfahbod?" (Note, I said *say*, not *write* for now.) And my next
question is going to be, "when?"

That should keep you busy for a while!

-Connie
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote:

> We don't write Ezafe in noun phrase constituents;
There is a big difference between *we never write* and
*we sometimes write*. Obviously, you DO mark the ezafeh in
certain situations.
In this case, if the draft says says that one may not
mark the ezafeh to connect given and family name, then either
that's a new rule or the draft is wrong. I see that written, especially
for authors on book titles all time.

-Connie
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PDF

[C Bobroff]

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

> Correction: Found the Reader!
You certainly did! I'm glad I asked.

> Go to: 
> Select: English (Middle Eastern)
> Select your platform (It is available for Windows and Mac OS X) and the
> rest is as it should be.

It forced me to first remove my more recent non-Middle Eastern version but
I don't mind, it's worth it!

> Connie, try it with the PDFs that you have to see which one works.

It works great on this one, for example:
http://persianacademy.ir/books/Dastoor-e%20khatt.pdf

The text can be copied and pasted into Notepad with no directional
problems.

However, it still does not work on many such as:
http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf

What ends up in Notepad as only garbage.

Obviously, it matters what software was used to create the PDF and I can't
tell from the "properties" info  what the Persian Academy used.


> Also
> can you come up with a cleaner version of this conversation an put it
> on your pages?

OK!

-Connie

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Re: [History] My Story, part 1 (1236 words)

[C Bobroff]

Thank you, Hooman. [BTW, some of you may want to note the spelling of
Hooman] Part 1 was great!  I especially appreciated the Pre-history
section in Tabriz.  As you know the Iranian Autobiography as a genre is
very rare so what you're giving us is a real treat. I know it's difficult
to expose yourself like this, but I can only encourage you to keep
providing the whole story and not hold back any details.  In fact, I may
have to keep a copy for my virtual Persian Computing Museum. (I just
received my first printed Arabic Yeh exhibit this morning as a matter of
fact.) In a few years, kiddies will sit down to type Persian and not
realize how lucky they are.  I've also all along been noting the painful
story of those who brought printing and the press to Iran in their day.
Please do continue the story as you have time and inclination. And thank
you for getting after the other old-timers as well. I've been trying to
tell them how important it is to document every detail for years!  This is
truly one of THE MOST IMPORTANT threads on this list. Thank you again and
again for sharing your story!
-Connie

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

> Hi everybody, especially Connie,
>
> First of all, apologies for not being around for a while. I was kind of
> busy with miscellaneous obligations...
>
> I promised Connie to write something about the history of my
> involvement with Persian computing. This is the first part in a series
> of posts. It acts as an introduction to establish the context and
> background. As such, it is not fully about Persian computing per se.
>
> OK, here begins my story as a life in the history of Persian computing:
>
> 1. Pre-history
>
> In the early eighties, during my high school days in Tabriz, I was
> obsessed with thinking about the meaning of life and my mission in
> life, playing with cats, studying geometry and modern physics
> (Einstein, Heisenberg, etc.), shooting with my air rifle, throwing
> knives at any wooden target, touring the city on my bicycle, building
> shelves and cabinets for the family and friends, building and tweaking
> hand-made Hi-Fi for my sister, building small steam engines with my
> cousin, trying to build gunpowder-propelled model rockets with my best
> friend, and other weird stuff. Those days I was totally unaware of
> girls, my appearance and my (lack of) social behavior. Back then, I
> barely knew computers existed, they where completely absent from my
> world. This period of my life coincides with the period of war,
> full-scale embargo, terrorist attacks, and the government treating
> anybody who wasn't an insider like the enemy.
>
> I barely thought about what career I would like to pursue, but was
> inclined to become a mechanical engineer. Then I graduated high school
> in 1984 and immediately took the university entrance exam and landed in
> Sharif University of Technology as a student of civil engineering. It
> was quite a surprise and disappointment for me. I disliked civil
> engineering, but I did a foolish thing and put it as my first choice
> because of the pressure from teachers, friends and family. I was quite
> confident that I wouldn’t be accepted in Sharif University. I was
> really surprised when I learned that I had the 14th grade for the
> position. I expected the others to do far better than me.
>
> So, when I arrived at my dorm room, I wasn't very enthusiastic. What I
> found there didn't help either. I found a stinky mess in the room with
> three depressed guys who were hit by the Cultural Revolution and
> closing of the universities for almost two years, not to mention mostly
> arbitrary changes to the course syllabus and the fact that the room was
> designed for two students not four. I was dragging my foot when it came
> to studying civil engineering and was in the verge of dropping out of
> school and going to the war front when I discovered the joy of
> programming and computers.
>
> It was the second semester and we had a basic programming course on
> FORTRAN 66. We were punching cards and putting our deck of cards in the
> queue to be batch processed by Control Data CDC-6000 mainframe
> remaining from the seventies. We would get the printout of the program
> source and its output a few hours later. All of my programs ran
> correctly in the first try and my teacher kept all of my projects as
> outstanding examples of good solutions and stylish programming. He kept
> asking me whether I had prior experience with computers and refused to
> believe that I didn't.
>
> After that course, my life was changed forever. I started spending most
> of my time in the computer science department, computer lab, and its
> library. I continued the rest of my days in the university barely
> passing my courses in civil engineering and focusing my energy on
> programming and computer science instead. For those who don't know: I
> didn't have the choice of changing my study, because of the very
> limited capacities and the sheer resistance of t

Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

>http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf

Congratulations on getting a new typist who is not allergic to
Hamzeh's!
But where did all the Kasreh's marking Ezafeh's go this time? And why no
ZWNJ on plural -Ha's?

Is that really true you aren't supposed to put a written Kasreh after
given names? I know it's definitely not ok (spoken or written) with
"Rezaa" ending in long "aa" but with "Mohsen" ending in a consonant? I
believe it is common to both write and pronounce the "-e" there between
given and family name. Please inform me.

By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian and
it was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and all
the letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running backwards
from left to right.  I can't seem to copy and paste with yours. It ends up
in garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets!

-Connie
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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

>  And guess what? All the output will be Open Source!
>
> Keep a look here for saner announcements. I need to rush home.

Hmmm, this sounds like a case of advanced delirium.
Tell Mom, no less than 48 hours of deep REM sleep will be required to
restore the good old Mesopotamian pessimism we have come to expect
and admire so much in our Roozbeh!
-Connie
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Re: Persian-English Dictionary

[C Bobroff]

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Pedram Safari wrote:

> So, using the information that Majid provided, I have put a note in my
> dictionary page (http://www.math.columbia.edu/~safari/dictionary/) as
> follows.

Hey Pedram,
I think a lot of links to the dictionary are listed as:
http://www.math.columbia.edu/~safari/masood/cgi-bin/
in which case your note does not appear.

I trust there is only one actual version of the dictionary?

-Connie
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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> And managed all the numbering and sorting and all that by hand?
They would have done that BEFORE exporting to their publishing software.

Now, do you have any more questions before [hopefully] heading off to bed?

-Connie
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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> Who is to decide about what is bad? Are we professional linguists or
> dictionary writers?

We can we directed by others to edit. I'm just saying the online
version has this potential, unlike the printed version.

-Connie
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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

[C Bobroff]

> On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 08:20, C Bobroff wrote:
> > I just thought the typist had used MS Word, then exported to Excel and
> > then to some publishing program.
>
> I'm sure both MS Word and MS Excel would crash under the weight of so
> much text.
>

Who said they didn't break it up into smaller files?

-Connie
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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> new parts are not comparable in quality to Moin's work, with wrong
> etymologies, bad definitions, etc.

That would be a problem. However, the bad entries can be edited out as
they are discovered.

> I don't agree. I believe the publisher has long time commercial interest
> in this (and won't be able to understand that this will actually help
> his sales, too).

I wonder!

> full, but that thing is clearly called "ghash-gir" if someone knows the
> device and its name.
Thank you for clearing that up!

> No one cares for that, in a dictionary. A good dictionary should have
> all the Academy-approved words, but it should list all the words in
> usage, approved by the slow Academy or not.

They can also be added as they get approved.

-Connie
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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> MS Word?!! You really believe a professional publisher can prepare
> Persian print quality books in MS Word?!
I just thought the typist had used MS Word, then exported to Excel and
then to some publishing program. That was in response to Behdad
mentioning typing. I didn't think there would be any typing involved.
Don't know about Zarnegar.

-Connie

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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

[C Bobroff]

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> There are many claims that this doesn't add anything to the Mo'in
> Persian dictionary,
How is that possible when it's physically twice as big?
And now Pedram informs us it has a different approach, namely
*definitions* rather than *synonyms*.

> and is a real waste of paper and shelf space.
"Waste" is what's in our favor here! Sokhan stands to lose no money if
they just hand over the data and all rights.  It will be good publicity
for them!

> I've
> heard oral critiques by Dr Masoumi-Hamedani (head of the Persian
> Academy's Language and Computer group) and Mr Pourmomtaz (a linguist,
> and the head of "tarh-e jaame'-e kaarbari-e zabaan-e faarsi"). I'm not
> into the game of ethymology etc, but can ask the people who claimed such
> for more details, if you insist.

I'm sure it has a million defects. For example, I found one word
"ghash-gir" meaning "book-end" and tried to use that on my Iranian friends
but they'd never heard of it. (I'm not sure if the word was incorrect or
you don't have book-ends in Iran! You know, the support you put at the end
of your shelf to keep your books from toppling over...) I don't know if
all the modern words have been approved by the Academy. Even so, it's
wonderful!


> This was funded by a private publisher, as far as I know.
No publisher could have afforded that without subsidy.
In any case, they'd better do something with it soon, whether sell to
someone who can afford it or give to us for free.  Dictionaries get
superceded rapidly so they'd better hurry!

-Connie
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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

[C Bobroff]

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

>   * Finding a good source.
I think we all agree the Sukhan dictionary is going to waste in print
form. It is as if meant for this project! (However, I'm open to other
suggestions, just that if the dictionary is better, the owner may have
commercial plans for it.)

>   * Getting permission for online publication.
This will indeed be a delicate matter!

>   * Get it typed.
Can I not assume it was originally typed in MS Word and the data can be
uploaded in minutes?

>   * Find proof-readers.
There has to be system of how to handle bug reports and fix typos.

I submitted a typo to http://www.persopedia.com/ months ago and they never
fixed it. Presumably it is technically too difficult to fix small things.
This should be avoided.

-Connie
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RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

[C Bobroff]

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> I volunteer to implement a web interface for the dictionary,
Excellent!
You'll have to make it so that whether the user types in bi[ZWNJ]kaar,
bikaar, or bi kaar, the word will be found!

>  but I think we'll need other
> people's help as well, because I would guess the whole data would be *huge*.
Will this require separate dedicated server(s)?
(I'm thinking about Behdad and the Persian Digital Library here...)

-Connie
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Re: Nazanin

[C Bobroff]

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, J H wrote:

> I read some of your Nazanin discussions from 2002. Now I am wondering if
> someone somewhere has created a completely legal and working freeware
> version of Nazanin or a font that is similar to it? MS perhaps, or ... I am
> totally confused. Should I worry about Linotype or Sinasoft or the other
> copyright owners or just use it (which of them?)?
>
> J Harkko

For making documents to print on paper or to be used as graphics, your
best bet is still Borna Rayaneh:
http://www.bornaray.com/en_fonts.asp?fn=per_fonts&rfn=en_fonts&parent=fontslist&Grand=Main

For web use, I put some info here:
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/weft.htm
(This site is best viewed on WinXP/IE6.0)
The info on Koodak and Roya fonts by Farsiweb applies to your case. You'll
find in the zipped set of fonts, "Nazli" which is an improved version of
"Nazanin." Note: these fonts are in the beta-testing stage and are not
perfect yet even though the Farsiweb staff has hundreds of thousands of
staff members on the job. (Just kidding, I think there are 2 or 3 people
total??)

As for the legal and moral dimension, everything that was just said about
the Aryanpour dictionary applies here as well. The Kayhan Publishing
Company is the one who commissioned many of the first fonts to be made.
Linotype, specificially Fiona Ross and Tim Holloway helped both with
artistic and technical aspects and both are still in the font business and
I've been trying to get after them for the details but they are busy.
Fiona who is very nice has promised to get back to me soon.  Kayhan, Borna
and Sinasoft seem to have given up all rights and are offering the fonts
for everyone's benefit. That is also extremely nice.  Borna has especially
done a lot of work to improve the fonts and I can't understand why they
don't come out and take a bow and let us extend our appreciation a bit
even though they are included among the silent lurkers on this list!

The greatest mystery of all: How can it be that the Iranian community in
the United States which is the richest and most prosperous immigrant
community of all has not bothered to get together and have a proper
Persian font made and instead are waiting for Microsoft to provide it?

-Connie
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Re: Misinformation!

[C Bobroff]

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

> I recently came across this article
> http://www.khabgard.com/?id=844986758 which is endorsed by some other
> weblog authors. The author encourages using adifferent Yeh characters
> for middle and end placements.

Oh my!
I think someone was listening to the discussion on this list back in Nov
2003 with subject, "What the hell is this "Yeh" and "Keheh" problem?" and
took all that as a nice "How to" and increased the problem!
-Connie
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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

[C Bobroff]

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Pedram Safari wrote:

> I do not know about pronunciation, but the dictionary at
> http://www.math.columbia.edu/~safari/dictionary/
> (which was discussed above) is transliteration-based (using the so-called
> "mikhi" alphabet, available on the right side of the page), if that is
> what you want. It is platform-independent, as well as use-to-use
> (clickable).

Pedram,

Thanks but it's not what I need.

First of all, I've actually been a *user* of this dictionary especially a
few years ago when it was one of the ONLY online Persian dictionaries and
I don't remember it ever being down or not working!  I even had to write a
report for some governmental agency on the state of online Persian
materials in which I explained that on one hand this sort of dictionary is
really only for Persian speakers wanting to learn English. Think of it: no
vowels (harakat), no tashdid's. Is it not absurd that a dictionary should
have half the letters missing?!  On the other hand, due to the lack of
textbooks with proper lists of vocabulary, the poor beginning students of
Persian are forced to waste their time flipping through paper dictionaries
which leads to fatigue and they don't have any energy left to actually
*learn* the words. Therefore, I concluded this dictionary is much better
than nothing at all.  My professor even asked me to find out exactly which
dictionary it was and that's how I came to know it was the Aryanpour
"Concise English-Persian dictionary" and had that answer at the ready when
Behdad asked the other day!

Now,I wonder if some of you who are so experienced technically could do
another dictionary project? At least as far as getting the data up in a
legal way and then others could make the interface according to the needs
of the target audience and connect with English and other languages.
For example, I  think this very nice dictionary is a complete waste as it
is available only in printed form in unmanageable 8 volumes:
AUTHOR   Anvari, Hasan
 TITLEFarhang-e bozorg-e Sokhan / beh sarparasti-e Hasan Anvari
 PUBL INFOTehran : Sokhan, 1381 [2002]
ISBN 9646961983 (set)

It is in very clear typesetting, has latin transliteration, many idioms
(estellah), examples of how to use in sentences, new words, dialect
variations, etc.

I'm sure this dictionary must have been funded by the Iranian government
and no profits expected. I'm shocked to see that less than a dozen US
universities have purchased it. I should think the author and publisher
would be very happy to see it put online and all the efforts go to some
use.  Surely they will agree if their name is kept with the data!  As for
the technical part, I no longer have any doubts as to the abilities of the
members of this group, especially after hearing the keyboard hack job for
the sake of the ZWNJ earlier today!

Thoughts?

-Connie
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Re: Iranian Mac User group

[C Bobroff]

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> their dictionary available for download is infringing copyright
> of the Aryanpours

What I understood from that discussion was that a lot of online
dictionaries are using Aryanpour data with no mention of the name
Aryanpour. Others mention Aryanpour but no sign that the Aryanpour estate
is getting any royalties or even that permission was asked or granted to
use their data. Then I even noticed this one:
http://www.aryanpour.com
where I'm not even sure any Aryanpour data was used!

Since the Aryanpour family was in the dictionary business before anyone
could foresee the computer age and with Iranian copyright laws being what
they are, I'm not sure even that legally speaking, these people are
breaking any laws. This data falls into a grey zone.

Now, morally speaking, I must say in principle, it is horrible to take
someone else's labor without permission, especially when the Aryanpour
family is still around and still making dictionaries.  I would like to
know if they care or are they so big and famous that this is of no
concern? Or maybe they are wringing their hands in despair that no one
cares and then they'll thank you, Behdad!  Why doesn't someone go knock on
their door and ask for an official statement! I am sure curious to know!

I don't think the Iranian Mac Users Group is any more or less guilty than
all the others using the Aryanpour data and unless the Aryanpour family or
their lawyers issue a directive, I can't do anything but urge people to
say where they got the data and also join in this and other discussions
because we are now entering the age of the database when all kinds of
things are going to go online and I'm sure everyone would like to feel
good about what they're doing. I think it's a good thing that nowadays
there are EULA's, etc where the owner can explicitly say what may or may
not be done with the property.

By the way, does anyone know of a Persian online dictionary which gives
any sort of pronunciation or transliteration info in Latin script? I mean
besides the Steingass and besides this one:
http://iranianlanguages.com/dictionary.php?eng-per which is obviously
being developed with much care and attention to quality but still seems to
not have a very large word base.

-Connie
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Re: Macs. Was Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 12, Issue 34

[C Bobroff]

Thank you, Eva. I have wasted no time adding your additional tips to my
Persian Mac info page in English:
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/mac.html
I did edit out the "Dear fiends" part although I'm afraid your
subconscious has discovered the true nature of the folks here :)

Hope you inspire others to also send in more tips to help the "friends"
and "fiends" alike!

Also I just heard from Ali Samadi that the Iranian Mac User group (in
Persian) is actually at:
http://www.irmug.org
(I think I had a mistake earlier.)

-Connie

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Eva Braiman wrote:

> Dear fiends,
>
> Thanks so much for the posting on Mac Persian word processing for the
> mac. I have had great success using all the tips I have gotten from
> this list.
>
> For example, I was able to salvage a Farsi manuscript with the
> following steps:
>
> 1. Take a DOC file created on an old Windows 98 (Arabic) machine
> running Parsa 99 and Zarnigar 97, copy it to the Mac (OSX 10.3.4)
> 2. Open the DOC file in Word (where the characters turn to gibberish)
> and save the file as an RTF
> 3. Using Mellel, with Persian ISRI keyboard and B Yagut font, import
> the RTF file and it looks nearly (a few yeh and alignment problems, but
> no big deal) perfect!
>
> Yay!
>
> Eva Braiman
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Re: Mac info for Persian

[C Bobroff]

Thanks to three Mac users on this list, I was able to collect some basic
info on Persian Mac computing here:

http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/mac.html

I hope this will fill an information gap for the users as well as provide
a place in English for the Apple people to see that they do have a few
Persian customers who are suffering from neglect. More feedback is
encouraged and I'll update as needed.

I also took the opportunity to throw in a gratuitous, not-so-nice
provocation which is aimed not only to excuse the Mac browsers for their
shortcomings but also to encourage someone here to make a perfect, model
testpage for Persian browsing. Since [most] webmasters want their site to
actually work on all computers, we have no testpage. This is what I said:

"It is important to keep in mind that there are almost no real Persian
websites one can use as a test for the browser.  That is because most
webmasters have dumbed down their site to make it work on Win9x and also
to compensate for buggy fonts and general lack of complete Persian fonts.
Therefore one rarely finds ZWNJ, Hamza above Heh, Persian numbers, small
vowels, Persian Yeh, Persian Kaf, etc."

-Connie



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Re: Mac info for Persian

[C Bobroff]

On Fri, 21 May 2004, Behnam wrote:

> You asked my "expert" opinion, you got it! brace yourself, this is a
> very long one!

Thank you, Behnam!

You have put A LOT of time into your responses.  I'm going to edit that
and keep it handy so I can make the Mac users feel more confident that
someone out there IS working on Persian Mac support!  I really did not
enjoy having to always say, "I don't know!"

Now you may go relax and enjoy your weekend.
Thanks again!
-Connie
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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

[C Bobroff]

Well, I thought I was done with the Weft demo page,
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/weft.htm and could now
catch up on my non-computing activities. Picked up reading Jamalzadeh's
"Dar al-Majanin" where I'd left off months ago. What did I run into after
just 2 pages? "I looked at the sky. It had become an expansive garden"
(i.e., the same Hafez that was the content of the WEFT demo) LOL, this is
some sort of conspiracy! Anyhow, I had to then return to the webpage and
add Jamalzadeh's edition.  This gave me the chance to add another FarsiWeb
font, Roya. Also took the opportunity to throw in a couple Heh+Hamza Above
(U+0654) demo's. The positioning is not altogether bad. Of course, not
like U+06C0 but still, not bad. The harakat (short vowels, fatha, kasra,
dumma, etc) are positioning a bit too distant from the mother ship but I
threw a few in for good measure. Of course, these positioning issues will
depend on the OS and browser as well as the font.

-Connie
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RE: Miscellaneous web issues

[C Bobroff]

On Thu, 20 May 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

>   BTW, why the
> Shift-Space combination does not work?
Because the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator
http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/msklc.mspx
thought the space bar is reserved for only spacing characters.
Roozbeh said he sent MS a list of such bugs. Until they fix that,
shift-b is not bad for ZWNJ.

-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)

[C Bobroff]

On Thu, 20 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

> I'll write some crime stories. But don't expect anything this week, I
> am very busy.

OK! But if we are to properly judge your confession of past crimes, be
sure to not leave out any details and please start from the beginning. You
know, the glaciers were receding, the dinosaurs suddenly vanished,
then...?

Just deliver in small morsels as time permits!
-Connie
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Re: Mac info for Persian

[C Bobroff]

On Wed, 19 May 2004, Behnam wrote:

> That's alright. I don't like to make a fool of myself if it's not in
> public!
I feel the same way!

>  answer to your specific
> questions, I'll send them later.
Thank you for your blurb. But you sound very pessimistic when the
screenshot you sent me (privately) of the Tajik page was in fact, quite
nice.
There is no hurry on the specific questions. Whenever you feel like it, if
ever...
-Connie
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Mac info for Persian

[C Bobroff]

Hello Mac expert(s),

Below are some Persian Mac questions. Any answers you can supply would
be greatly appreciated. You can also add your own questions or re-word!
Thank you!

WORD-PROCESSING

1. Is it possible to type complete and correct Persian including ZWNJ and
punctuation in a text editor/word processor that comes with the Mac
itself? If yes, on which versions of Mac?

2. What is the font situation like? Additional fonts available online? For
purchase? Free?

3. Is the default keyboard ok? Can you customize it? Is there also a
phonetic input option?

4. What, why and where are Nisus Writer and Melal (and others)? Can they
be used as/instead of  an upgrade with older versions of Macs that don't
do Persian text correctly? (Links to these products?)

5. Are there Mac support groups? Is there a way to contact Apple Persian
support for feedback on Word-processing issues? Other helpful links?

WEB VIEWING

1. Is it possible to see Persian websites correctly? Even harakat,
punctuation, ZWNJ? On which Mac/Browser(s)?

2. Is the default font ok? Easy to specify your own if not?

3. Support groups? Apple support? Other useful links?



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Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)

[C Bobroff]

On Wed, 19 May 2004, Behnam wrote:

> I don't see its use in Perso-Arabic script.
I meant both Latin input and output here.

The punishment for misunderstanding the question is that you have to
answer some Mac questions! (New form of flaming, hope you like it!) I'm
getting 1 or 2 Mac users per week asking for info on how to type Persian
and I just am not sure what the state of the technology is so can you
please give the definitive guide? (And anyone else who can please
contribute, also, so there is one place with the basic info.)
See my next post.
Thanks in advance!
-Connie

> On 19-May-04, at 5:38 PM, C Bobroff wrote:
>
> > U+2011 should definitely be part of the custom Perso-Arabic
> > transliteration keyboards. (Hint to Peter)
>
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Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)

[C Bobroff]

Dear Hooman,

> I may move these stories to my pending
> weblog which hopefully will open in the next several days.

Why should you move to your weblog?  I can't think of a better
place for the story of Persian computing than PersianComputing.

> One more thing, the reason that I may seem talented for story telling
> is that I am an INFP (http://www.personalitypage.com/INFP.html), so
> be-warned.
Glad to know just what we're up against here!

-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)

[C Bobroff]

On Wed, 19 May 2004, Behnam wrote:

> The Unicode character is U-2011, Non-Breaking Hyphen. If you don't have
> it on your keyboard, you may be able to use this information to type it
> with other tools or utilities.

As Ordak D. Coward reports, Ctrl-Shift-Hyphen instead of hyphen does
the trick in Word.  (I checked.)  I never thought  of using Help. What a
novel idea!
U+2011 should definitely be part of the custom Perso-Arabic
transliteration keyboards. (Hint to Peter)

> Or you can drop the "Al-" altogether. If I remember correctly, his
> street name in Iran was "Biruni" short and simple!

Yes, you have to keep the audience in mind and pick from Abu Rayhan,
Biruni, al-Biruni. Worse with (al-)Ghaz(z)ali.

-Connie
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RE: Miscellaneous web issues

[C Bobroff]

On Wed, 19 May 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> Interesting.  Sorry for my ignorance, but is that keyboard available
> publicly?

You can re-live its creation here in the archives:
http://lists.sharif.edu/pipermail/persiancomputing/2003-June/000538.html

And you can download it here:
http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/farsitools/persiankeyboard.zip?download

A PDF file with the layout is here:
http://lists.sharif.edu/pipermail/persiancomputing/attachments/20030612/2e85a1ad/PersianKL_preview.pdf

I've also repeated the above here if you don't like ZIP files or have some
other problem.
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/kb.htm

Roozbeh, is it not time to remove the "experimental" from its name?

> Why not?  The \u syntax allows you to represent Unicode characters in
> JavaScript.
Now I know.

> Well, on Mozilla1.2.1 that I tested it on, if you replaces ZWNJ in the
> description of the Tajik array indices with ‌ then it seems to work
> happily.  Try giving it a test.

Done! Beautiful!
I hope the Mozilla users appreciate all this trouble.

Thanks again for all your help!

-Connie

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Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)

[C Bobroff]

Actually, all this off-topic mix of calendars and philosophy
has reminded me that when I was writing something (in English) a few
months ago on Al-Biruni, whenever his name came up at the end of the line
in Word, it would wrap and so the "Al-" would be on one line and the
"Biruni" would go down to the next.  This seemed not very respectful to
break up a great man's name like that! Is there any way to type a hyphen
that will resist break-up during wrapping?

-Connie

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Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)

[C Bobroff]

On Tue, 18 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

> On a second thought, I got reluctant
> to discuss this matter on the list. It would be way off topic.
> Moreover, I am afraid that whatever I say could be interpreted as
> political statement  or religious evangelism and start flamewars.

Looks like Fortune smiled upon you and you managed to post without
getting flamed.
So, with this newly acquired confidence and since you have some talent in
story-telling, are you going to please tell us about your past crimes
soon?  Nimrooz, etc? I mean, from the beginning and please don't skimp on
the details. I think I'm not the only one who would love to hear it!

-Connie
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RE: Miscellaneous web issues

[C Bobroff]

It appears taking a break is the best cure. Some progress:

On Tue, 18 May 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

>  Why it doesn't work in Notepad?

You're right. It DOES work in Notepad and it had worked the very first
time I'd try to replace ZWNJ with \u200c. The reason I didn't know it had
been a success is really anti-climactic: Although I'd cleared my cache on
IE, I had not checked the little optional box for "Delete all offline
files." Only because some others have been emailing feedback concerning
the content did I realize that the page was operational on other
computers. The old .js file must fall into the "offline file" category
because that did the trick. Also, although my eyes were telling me it had
worked, I'd assumed the Find/Replace process had deposited some invisible
junk characters screwing up the direction. An imagined problem!

>Note that
> on Windows XP, you can't type ZWNJ inside the Find/Replace dialog box - you
> need to copy/paste it from inside the Notepad text editor window.  Another
> reason why not to use Notepad.

Find/Replace  [the invisible] ZWNJ in Notepad is no problem becuase
I have the Persian Experimental Keyboard and ZWNJ is
right on Shift-b. Although I can't actually SEE that I've typed ZWNJ
in the Find box, it really is there. So now in my .js array, I have a few
Persian words with \u200c right in the middle of the Persian script.
It doesn't seem like the browsers should be able to handle that but
now I see it's not a problem. Only thing I have to remember is to re-open
the Notepad file in a non-WYSIWYG editor and delete that BOM creature.

Mozilla is now able to "find" my words containing ZWNJ which
was the whole point of this exercise.

One small problem still remains: in Mozilla, if you click on any Tajik
word, it shows you the Persian counterpart in the popup.
But Mozilla is not able to display the ZWNJ so that is ignored.
I'm not sure what to do to solve this.

> BTW, FrontPage 2003 can open the .js file (using File | Open, or drag and
> drop) and render the UTF-8 characters without converting them to numeric
> entities just fine.

ok. That's definitely a 2003 improvement.

> In the JS code, try to replace the trailing ZWNJ-raa and ZWNJ-o with nothing
> using a regex.
I'll look into this possibility.

>
> HTH,
Most definitely. Thanks!
-Connie

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RE: IranL10nInfo

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

> But since I was drawn to this calendar thing I realized that the correct
> word is actually 'Amordad'

Recommend you avoid "correcting" anything. Once you make a decision to
"correct" one thing, you'll end up having to correct more and more and
then it will get out of control. If you have an option for variants, fine
but the one in the main entry should be the default, standard word in use
right now at the time you are collecting data. Your job is to DEscribe,
not PREscribe.
-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar

[C Bobroff]

On Tue, 18 May 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

> - Birashk's book. He had published a book on his work, if memory
> serves me, it was called 'taarikh-tatbighi-ye Iran'.

Looks like the English version of this book is on sale if you're
interested:
http://www.mazdapublishers.com/Comparative-Calendar.htm

-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 17 May 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
> Of course, it is possible to find the exact date, for example by looking
> at the archive of "Ettela'at" or "Kayhan" newspapers, and see when the
> date in their title changes. Unfortunately, I don't have access to them
> at the moment, maybe later.

ok, the info is online at Encyclopaedia Iranica:
http://www.iranica.com/articlenavigation/index.html
search under calendars--Islamic period
page 672
(you can't seem to go there directly as they have a pdf file for each
page)

Here's the relevant part:

On 24 Esfand 1354 Sh. / 14 March 1975 the
Majles approved a new era based on the supposed year of accession of the
first Achaemenid king, Cyrus the Great (559 B.C.); thus, 21 March 1976
became the first day (Nowruz) of the year 2535 in the Shaahanshaahi era.
The month names of the Persian solar Hejri calendar were retained wihout
change.  Official documents and publications were dated according to the
new calendar.  This caused much confusion and created widespread
discontent, particularly among the clergy.   Eventually, on 5 Shahrivar
1357 Sh./27 August 1978, the government, in the face of the coming
revolution, reverted to the solar Hejri calendar.  This calendar is
reckoned from 1 Farvardin, 119 days before 1 Moharram of the Arabian lunar
year in which the hejra took place.  The Julian date corresonding to the
first day of the solar Hejri era is 19 March 622.  Taqizadeh gives 17
March 622 (1937-39, p. 916), which was apparently the date arrived at by
the Persian commission for calendar reform in 1304 Sh./1925.


Wow, 3 whole years it lasted! However, must have been a productive 3 years
as I do come across publications with the Shahanshahi date now and then.
I still think it's worth mention in your documentation.
Looks like it was abbreviated with Shin.
-Connie
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RE: Miscellaneous web issues

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 17 May 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

First of all, thank you very much for all the patient and lengthy
explanations. Very nice of you to share so many tips!
(Thanks to the others too who answered on and off list!)

> parent block tag's direction is ltr.  If you apply the direction to a block
> element (such as , , etc.) then this problem would be solved.

Changing  to  solved the problem in 5 seconds. Easy!

> Yeah, I saw this behavior on WinXP/Mozilla1.2.1.  It seems like Mozilla
> doesn't like the the UTF-8 encoded ZWNJ characters.  I solved half of the
> problem by replacing ZWNJ with ‌

Now that 2 people have said to change ZWNJ to \u200c, I tried that but it
didn't work. I don't think I have the right tool.

I couldn't do it in Notepad because as I said, it's WYSIWYG in Persian
script so if I do a global replacement and stick \u200c in the middle
of Persian script, that's obviously not going to work (and I also tried it
for good measure and it didn't work but there may be many reasons it
didn't work out using Notepad.)

Then, since you recommended Frontpage, I tried that. Earlier, it had not
even occured to me to attempt to open a .js file in  Frontpage (version
2000.) This time I fooled it by changing the extension from .js to .html
and so was able to open it in html view where all the unicode was in
numeric style. I changed all the ‌ to \u200c but now I see that also
has not worked.

Guess it's time to take a break!

> 3.  If you want to insert text in the middle of a block, never go to that
> location by a mouse click.  You may end up inserting the new text in the
> wrong place.  What I do is go to the beginning of the line (or somewhere in
> the English parts of text, and move myself using the arrow keys on the
> keyboard.
I think I'm not going to use Notepad for making bidirectional arrays
from now on! That is insane to go to such great lengths!

> 4.  Never leave Word Wrap on.  Notepad has known problems with it when you
> try to save the file.
I didn't know this at all.


> Those are the BOM marks for UTF-8.
Ok, so the little critters have a name and purpose!

> You can leave them as they are, and handle them in the JavaScript code (trim
> them off of the end of the Tajik words maybe.)

Not sure what you have in mind here, but at this point, I"ll be glad just
to make it work with ZWNJ.


> A big (IMO) problem with font embedding is that if users save the document
> on their HD (using IE of course) then the fonts will be gone.  Not a
> professional image, if you ask me.

ok! Another reason against it! I'm keeping track of these points...

Again, thanks for your helpful responses.

-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 17 May 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:

> "Shaahanshaahi calendar" was introduced in 1355 and abolished in 1357.
> It was simply a map:
> Add 1180 to "Iranian" calendar".

But is that the official name? I might have just made that up.
Abbreviations??

-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 17 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

> P.S.: Although Hijri calendar (and definition of the prayer times) look
> very strange and primitive, there is a very good philosophical reason
> behind it which makes sense once you know it. Do you know the reason or
> want to know it?

Please continue. We are listening. You have a very nice narrative style!
-Connie
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Miscellaneous web issues

[C Bobroff]

Thanks to Peter, I finally got the Tajik project going (although under
construction!) here:
http://depts.washington.edu/yekruz/dialects/dialectsOfPersian.html

I've had a lot of problems and I'm throwing them at you for your kind
perusal and discussion of any points:

1. When viewed on WinXP/IE6, look what happens when you mouseover the
Persian words at the end (i.e. left margin) of each line. You also pick up
the space to the right of the first word in that line. Similarly, if you
attempt to mouseover the first word in the line and are just a little off
the word to the right, you unfortunately will pick up the last word in the
line.  Is this a bug or just my usual crazy coding style? This problem not
seen with Mozilla. Also not with left to right languages.

2. When viewed on WinXP/Mozilla1.7a, the ZWNJ's completely throw off my
mouseover javascript program. It "can not find" words with ZWNJ. And look
what happens if you mouseover the Tajik eqivalent: it displays the Persian
word ok but no ZWNJ. This problem not seen with IE. I left out all harakat
just so it would work in Mozilla (and Macs) so I'm sorry to see this
new problem.

3. To make the javascript arrays, I had to put a Persian word running from
right-to-left inside brackets [ ] running from left to right and this I
did in MS Notepad. Somehow, whether I copied or pasted or if I switched
language in the process some sort of invisible characters would be added
or else the brakets would end up like this: [ [ with the 2nd one running
in the opposite direction.  I had to keep re-doing and re-doing this,
almost going crazy in the process. Maybe if brackets [ ] were in the
Persian font, it would have been easier. I don't know. Punctuation in
bidirectional situations is troublesome.

4. Notepad also deposits 3 junk characters at the top, an i with 2 dots, 2
right-angle brackets and an upside-down question mark, however you can't
*see* them while in Notepad so you have to open the file in another text
program to delete them.  These 3 junk characters prevent the webpage from
working in certain browers.  Notepad is otherwise great because the latest
one is WYSIWYG and makes Persian data-entry easy and these 3 junk chars
are a small price to pay for that luxury. However, I'm open to a better
tool.

5.  Since "-raa" and "-o" are considered 2 separate words in Persian
script but hook up to the previous word in Tajik script, I had to employ
the ZWNJ just to have a one-to-one correspondence between languages for
the purposes of this project. I was wishing I had Behdad's beloved U+202F,
the Narrow No-Break Space for this operation!

6. I embedded the fonts again.  Looks beautiful on WInXP/IE6 and limited
others. I presume it looks terrible on the rest. Still thinking about what
to do about that. Behnam, how's the Tajik looking on your Mac?

-Connie
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RE: Iranian Calendar

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

> http://emr.cs.iit.edu/home/reingold/calendar-book/second-edition/CIIT.ht
> ml

Thanks. I took a look. Perhaps the Islamic calendars should provide the
time as well as the date and also say which time zone/region the calendar
is referring to.
I guess this Calendar topic is quite complex!
-Connie
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RE: Iranian Calendar

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 16 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> Something no
> body said is the Tajik people.  I've heard they use the same
> calendar, is it right?

Hang on a few days. I'll ask. -Connie
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RE: Iranian Calendar

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 16 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> Would you please tell me why "Iranian" is not perfect?
Because it's hard to please everyone at all times. Maybe some Baluchi
tribesman won't appreciate being lumped with "Iranian." Maybe someone from
Afghanistan, not having heard this discussion and how hard it is to
find a name will say, "Oh, so those "guys at Sharif" think we are now a
subset of Iran, eh?" (I think that's why Omid was going with "Persian!")
And then there are the people who will also use this .Net data who know
nothing about the region at all and all these names are a big blur...
There is "Iranian" in the modern sense and then there is the broader,
historic "Iranian" and someone who thinks the naming decision was made
carelessly and without taking cultural sensitivites in mind, will find
some way to make a fuss.  Whatever you choose, better put a lengthy
footnote and disclaimer.
That said, I truly do think "Iranian" is best.

> > "Daddy, look over there. There's some Persians speaking Farsi!"
> :

I thought you'd like that!

-Connie
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RE: Iranian Calendar

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

> "Iranian Calendar" is okay IMHO, but I like the "Persian Calendar"
> better for the name of the calendar system, since it covers more
> countries. In Iran we use the Iranian subtype of the Persian calendar,
> and in Afghanistan the Jalali subtype is used. I don't know about
> Tajikistan.

Omid, I still vote for "Iranian Calendar" because within that huge
geographic expanse, there are various non-Persian speaking groups.
"Iranian" is a little more broader term with a geographic sense as well.
It is also used by linguists, for example to describe dialects spoken
outside the borders of modern Iran to differentiate between the related
"Indian" subset of "Indo-Iranian."  "Iranian" is also not perfect, but as
you say, you can subset your .NET categories.

I'm perhaps reacting to more of the fallout from this "Farsi" vs.
"Persian" mess. One hears even more improvements/abuses of "Persian" in
the English language, as in, for example:

"Daddy, look over there. There's some Persians speaking Farsi!"

-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 16 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

> The lunar Hijri calendar used in Iran is also an official calendar and
> is calculated independent from other Hijri calendars used in other
> islamic countries. It is an important calendar, since it determines
> half of the holidays on our calendar. We also know that it has slightly
> different month lengths than other Hijri calendars.

Are there any online or downloadable calendars or converters for the
lunar Hijri system used in Iran? I'm only hearing about this different
month lenghts business today...

-Connie
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Re: Iranian Calendar

[C Bobroff]

On Sat, 15 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> So we've reached a consensus on using "Iranian Calendar" for the
> term referring to the solar calendar in action in Tehran, right?
"Iranian Calendar" does sound like the best choice.

Can you please be sure to mention in the documentation somewhere also
about the Shaahanshaahi calendar and how to convert and what's its
official name was and abbreviations, if any? That will be nice if that
system also makes its way into online conversion tools. It's a real
problem in places like Academic libraries when someone is, for example
told to catalog a book and there is something like "2536" which appears to
be a date, yet there is often no abbreviation or calendar  designation and
the poor cataloger has to run around looking for an expert and waste a lot
of time.

-Connie
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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

[C Bobroff]

On Fri, 14 May 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote:

> Is there any statistics about the percentage of users who have no
> problem reading Farsi Yeh and Keh? If not, I wonder if someone can set
> up a poll on this subject.

Ali,
Another option is to get some webstats from Persian website webmasters and
find out exactly how many Persian users are actually still using Win9x.
Of course, there are many variables involved but that would be a place to
start.

Also, as a follow-up to the  da's and ka's issue on this same thread,
after consultation with the author of the book I quoted, we decided to
remove the hamze from da's and go with the standard daas. That is indeed
what the Khanlari edition has. However, ka's will remain with the hamze to
be consistent with the sources he himself cited.

-Connie
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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

[C Bobroff]

Thanks, everyone for the WEFT feedback.  I feel better now having
investigated the WEFT option.  I also reported our findings to the
developers. Looks like they are not getting much feedback for Persian.

To summarize:
Weft seems to work reliably for all fonts On WinXP/IE6.0.
With Win2000, results vary but it does work sometimes with IE6.0
With Win98, IE6.0 is definitely required, however only the Koodak font
(and presumably the other FarsiWeb fonts) will work for Persian.
Interestingly, the Latin subset of Tahoma and Arabic Typesetting, (even
the characters with diacritics) also works.

Since according to our feedback and also
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
it looks like Weft should work on at least 50% of computers (I'm being
generous here!!) so I think we can say this is definitely a good
alternative to asking the user to download and install a font.

I'm not saying this is the best solution but it is one solution that we
see does work right now until further improvements are made in Persian
typography.

Thanks again for the feedback and comments!
-Connie
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RE: Days of the Week abbreviated

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 9 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

> "There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However,
> in certain cases such as in the month calendar headers it is acceptable
> to use the first letter of weekdays. The direction is also from right to
> left."

Maybe you should also mention the style in Behdad's middle picture. The
one with the days of the week on the side. Maybe some segment of the
population is accustomed to seeing that style. You might mess up their
life if you take away what they're comfortable with! (Of course,
this is beyond the abbreviation question.)  -Connie
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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 9 May 2004, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:

> No, I did not have any additional fonts on my machine: the machine was
re-installed 2 days before the experiment, with Win98SE, plus all available
updates, plus NetScape Communicator 4.8 and ORinoco wireless drivers.
None of these include Koodak font, do they? :-)

Thanks for the clarification, Masoud.  I've been studying your exhibits.
Very interesting that your Tahoma in English gives all the English
letters correctly. For example, the two letters in the name Hafiz should
not be available in your version of Tahoma. So you either are benefiting
from the updates or from my font via Weft. But why could it not have
also given you the corrected Yeh in Persian? Since your machine can handle
the Yeh in Koodak, it is not that it can't display the unicode character
or that there is some shaping problem.

Anyone have any ideas?
-Connie

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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

[C Bobroff]

Masoud,
Thank you so much for the time you took to make the exhibits!
Exhibits A and C are a little depressing to look at but that's ok.
Concerning exhibit B (the Koodak font) I have a question: did you already
have the Koodak font on your computer? Did you uninstall it first?
That will be some good news if you don't have Koodak because it's
perfect on the "ancient machine!"
-Connie

On Sat, 8 May 2004, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:

> Hello Connie,
> I am using IE6 (with the latest updates) and windows 98SE
> I have some screenshots for you too:
> in Tahoma: Medial Yeh not shown properly, it shows as Terminal Yeh (Exhibit A)
> Koodak looks OK to me. (I didn't check the .pdf as I didn't have acroread on that 
> (ancient) machine (Exhibit B)
> Arabic font had the same problems (IMHO) as tahoma. (Exhibit C)
> And about download/render. On this P-133/40Megs of ram it took around 12-13 seconds 
> to show the page completely. For comparison, slashdot.org took around 8 seconds.
> cheers, and good luck on next revision,
> Masoud
>
>
> On Thu, May 06, 2004 at 11:31:27PM -0700, C Bobroff wrote:
> > We've had a few discussions about WEFT before in the past but never really
> > explored it completely.  Therefore, I made this demo page in both
> > English and Persian and embedded Tahoma, Koodak(by FarsiWeb) and Arabic
> > Typesetting:
> > http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/weft.htm
> >
> > Can you please check if Weft has worked? Do you see my fonts correctly?
> > Is the Yeh (medial form) showing up correctly in all fonts, especially on
> > Win98? Is the load time any longer than usual? If you have the old, buggy
> > Tahoma font, is my corrected font showing up instead?  If you have the old
> > Sinasoft or Borna Koodak, is my FarsiWeb Koodak showing up?
> >
> > Please report your findings! Be sure to mention which version of Windows
> > and IE. By the way, you have to uninstall these fonts if you have them,
> > otherwise, the test is not too helpful :)
> >
> > As you may know, Weft only works on Windows and IE so don't bother to
> > check on anything else.  Also please don't look at the source code! I was
> > in a great hurry and yes, it's a mess.  Anyone who is qualified is welcome
> > to redo it if too unbearable.  I would appreciate that!
> >
> > Thanks!
> > -Connie
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>
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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

[C Bobroff]

On Fri, 7 May 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi Fariborz,

>  (I know you really don't want to hear
> from eye-rain-ians â).

If you're referring to seeing too much rain around here this morning,
you're absolutely right :)

> What I've found
> useful -- especially for testing -- is VMWare.

The reason I prefer the human testers is because Weft is very sensitive
and we've seen that even on the same version of Windows and IE, Weft
can behave differently. VMWare will  give only one scenario and that
too, probably in ideal conditions. It makes a difference if the user has
enforced internet settings or if the machine is in kiosk mode, etc.  I
think it would be more useful to get a wide range of responses.

(Not saying I won't try it out anyhow so thanks for the idea!)

> P.S. Mac OS X users can use VirutalPC for PC virtual machine
> on a Mac.
Maybe our Mac expert in Toronto will have something to say on this.
Behnam?

-Connie

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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

[C Bobroff]

On Fri, 7 May 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:

> IE6.0 on Win2K: OK
Noted.

> Mozilla1.7RC1 on Win2K: OK (but the font of Arabic typesetting is very big!)
I see you've sent a followup. That's right, Weft is not supposed
to work on anything but Win and IE so no point checking really.
By the way, Arabic Typesetting is REALLY small compared to the core fonts
so I had to increase the size.  It's not meant for web use, only print.
But because of the size incompatibility, that makes it easy to see if
Weft is or is not working because the lines will wrap if your default
font appears. They designed Arabic Typesetting at a super small size
because the small vowels sometimes get cut off.)


> And I suppose the English translation of Bushaq poem is written in
> Koodak font (not in Tahoma as it says).
No Latin subset exists in the Koodak font.
I was forced to use Tahoma :(

> Another point is: why is it ØØØ instead of ØØØ and ÚØØ instead of ÚØØ?
I just quoted the book verbatim.
Ka's is sometimes seen written with a hamzeh as in Arabic.
I checked the meter (vazn) and could not see any reason why Haafez should
put the hamzeh in daas since the meter is not affected although the poet
certainly has the right to make this common orthographic variant all he
pleases.
The Khanlari edition of his Divan has no hamzeh. I tell you what, Ali,
I'll ask the author of the book I'm quoting and get back to you on this
point! Thank you for spotting that. That's interesting.

-Connie

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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

[C Bobroff]

On Fri, 7 May 2004, Arash Zeini wrote:

Hi Arash,

You must have an older version of Tahoma on your computer.  I think these
Latin characters with diacritics were only recently added to Tahoma. (They
seem to have forgotten z with line underneath even in the latest which is
a problem for Persian transliteration.) Or maybe the reason was something
else?  Even when I was trying to create a PDF file from the webpage, Adobe
showed unknown character boxes for those same characters you mentioned
even though they were displayed just fine on the the webpage. I had to
waste a lot of time making a screenshot jpeg then converting to pdf!

Of course, Weft is not supposed to work on Konqueror/KDE.  Perhaps it is
possible to add the missing features.  I know it used to be possible to
use Weft on Netscape until they voluntarily stopped supporting whatever
necessary component was involved in implementing Weft. Whether this was a
technical or commercial decision, I don't know.

-Connie

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Re: WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

[C Bobroff]

On Fri, 7 May 2004, AmirBehzad Eslami wrote:

> But take a look at http://www.browsercam.com ,

Hi BEHzad after a long time. Glad to see you're still around! I was in
fact, hoping you'd jump in on this one.  Thanks for the browsercam.com
tip. Unfortunately, it really was not too helpful. No chance to test Win98
with IE6 for example. Also it shows success with Win2000 and IE5.5 when I
see it NOT working on our computer here.

Look at the results yourself if you'd like:
http://www.browsercam.com/view.aspx?proj_id=63765
(I had it test another URL too for a different Weft project)

I guess we still need *human* testers so everyone, if you have time,
please uninstall your fonts and check out:
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/weft.htm

-Connie

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WEFT webpage font embedding--Call for feedback

[C Bobroff]

We've had a few discussions about WEFT before in the past but never really
explored it completely.  Therefore, I made this demo page in both
English and Persian and embedded Tahoma, Koodak(by FarsiWeb) and Arabic
Typesetting:
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/weft.htm

Can you please check if Weft has worked? Do you see my fonts correctly?
Is the Yeh (medial form) showing up correctly in all fonts, especially on
Win98? Is the load time any longer than usual? If you have the old, buggy
Tahoma font, is my corrected font showing up instead?  If you have the old
Sinasoft or Borna Koodak, is my FarsiWeb Koodak showing up?

Please report your findings! Be sure to mention which version of Windows
and IE. By the way, you have to uninstall these fonts if you have them,
otherwise, the test is not too helpful :)

As you may know, Weft only works on Windows and IE so don't bother to
check on anything else.  Also please don't look at the source code! I was
in a great hurry and yes, it's a mess.  Anyone who is qualified is welcome
to redo it if too unbearable.  I would appreciate that!

Thanks!
-Connie
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RE: IranL10nInfo

[C Bobroff]

On Mon, 3 May 2004, Jon D. wrote:

> http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajmcyr.ttf
> http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajtcyr.ttf

Thanks, Jon.  I guess these are hacked Monaco and Times New Roman
although I didn't look too carefully.

Meanwhile, Peter has sent me a keyboard and wonderful documentation which
I'm still trying out.  It does look like MS Arial Unicode and TITUS  can
handle the few extra Tajik characters although both fonts are more about
function than appearance and not so practical for webuse. That's
why people resort to hacking, I suppose.

Still, they are a lot  better than nothing and maybe I can get back on the
project I'd shelved earlier. Too bad I didn't ask here earlier!

Thanks again for checking.
-Connie

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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

[C Bobroff]

On Sun, 2 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

> [3.2.3]
> There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, it
> is common to use the first letter of weekdays in the month calendars as
 ^^
Common?
How about, "acceptable" or something like that?

-Connie
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Re: BBC Persian on Internet and the Persian Language

[C Bobroff]

On Sat, 1 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> He means the way some people write informal Persian, like for
> example to write "pesare-e khoobi-e", they write "pesareh
> khoobieh", means PEH SIN REH HEH   KHEH WAW BEH YEH HEH.

Oh. Duh. Thanks.
The search engine makers should have fun adding the informal forms!
-Connie
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RE: IranL10nInfo

[C Bobroff]

Peter,

Please send me your Tajik keyboard and we can discuss it further off the
list.  I don't think Arial Unicode MS will do but TITUS may work. I'll
have to check.  My particular project was for the web so even if we do
find a font, it will boil down to the eternal question of whether to
embed, use graphics or force the user to download the font (or some
combination thereof.)

-Connie

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote:

> Arial Unicode MS should do, plus (probably) Code2000 by James Kass or
> (possibly) Bitstream TITUS Unicode -- I've to check the latter ones. I am
> quite certain that there are a couple of Russian-made (not hacked) fonts
> around, too.
>
> Peter
>
>
> -----Original Message-
> From: C Bobroff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:16 PM
> To: Linguasoft
> Cc: 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'PersianComputing'
> Subject: RE: IranL10nInfo
>
>
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote:
>
> > It's very easy to type Tajik using a "Phonetic" (i.e., mnemonic) Cyrillic
> > keyboard.
>
> With which font though? I could only find hacked fonts.
>
> -Connie
>
>
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RE: IranL10nInfo

[C Bobroff]

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote:

> It's very easy to type Tajik using a "Phonetic" (i.e., mnemonic) Cyrillic
> keyboard.

With which font though? I could only find hacked fonts.

-Connie
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RE: IranL10nInfo

[C Bobroff]

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> Perhaps we should add Tajik vs. Tajiki to the list of wars ;).

Good idea!
Merriam-Webster even has "Irani" as an English word in case you need more
suggestions for your list.

I'm sticking with the Oxford English Dictionary...

-Connie
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Re: BBC Persian on Internet and the Persian Language

[C Bobroff]

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/interactivity/debate/story/2004/04/040428_mf_bt_weblanguage.shtml

Can you give an example of "haa-ye havvaz instead of kasra." I can't
think how that situation could come up although I'm sure it's obvious.

-Connie
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RE: IranL10nInfo

[C Bobroff]

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> For example, Tajiki is written in the Cyrillic alphabet instead of
> Arabic. ;)

Yeah, well, since I found out you can't actually type it unless you
buy those stand-alone programs (without the source code!), I'm
going to cite the Tajik [1] example every time people suggest Persian
script should be "reformed" and written in Latin chars because it's less
headaches. How easy or hard to implement seems to depend only on how much
interest there is, not on technical hurdles.
(Yes, I just read the BBC article Roozbeh mentioned!)

[1] The English word is Tajik (and sometimes Tadzhik) but not Tajiki.  (I
also only found this out recently!)

-Connie
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Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 11, Issue 15

[C Bobroff]

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:

> Not only that, but also you are screwing my mailer's threaded mail reading.
> Please don't do that.

I'm sure it was merely a subconscious attempt to seek out the
perfect abbreviation for Dushanbe, *Monday* Bazaar and capital of
Tajikistan :)

-Connie
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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

[C Bobroff]

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> Not much has happened with the fonts since last year (1382), and the
> latest version is 0.4. BTW, we need volunteers for tracking bugs in the
> fonts.

Sorry to hear that. Can you release the latest if there have been any
improvements?  Maybe I could post them on my website and say the "price"
is one bug report per download!
On the other hand, one does not like to distribute a lot of beta
fonts into the system which could result in chaos. That's why I usually
just send people to Borna still.
-Connie
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RE: IranL10nInfo

[C Bobroff]

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

> I regard your good ideas...
Thank you for the kind words.
Most of what is there is in fact, stuff I've learned on this list and can
also be found in the archives.


> About your suggestion, however, we (i.e. our team) have no idea about
> Afghan and Tajik languages.
It's all one language, different conventions.
I'm just saying that's an obvious area where someone needs to do
something even if just coordinate and facilitate.

You could really do a great service by getting the interest and funds
together to get a nice font made from scratch for example. Like Tahoma but
more "Persian" looking. Open Type and with all the Persian/Tajik
characters and the extended Latin subset needed to transliterate them.
I've been shouting this need from the rooftops over here but they don't
take me seriously.  You might have better luck.

There are many other projects, in fact.

> accepted, and I was rather disappointed when I was told that FarsiWeb is
> not interested in Microsoft .NET technology at all.

That is to be expected that they aren't jumping up and down for joy about
your project.  They've reiterated their stance on Microsoft often enough.
If you ask Microsoft to help you with your Linux project, you might also
get the same warm reception, right? However, from what I've observed, the
Farsiweb-Microsoft relationship has been mutally beneficial even when
there is no obvious profit to either side.


I'm not exactly sure what you want FarsiWeb to do beyond what they're
already doing.  Even to look over your data would require time they don't
have...

> Anyways, I'm writing to this mailing list to also receive motives beside
> hands. ;)
I'm sure there are a lot of people listening who will be very happy
to hear about you and your team so just find your niche and don't lose
hope-- as your name implies!

-Connie
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Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 11, Issue 15

[C Bobroff]

The problem here is that you're receiving the Daily Digest form of the
list so you're mixing and matching two different topics.  Possibly
three with the Outlook question that also crept in.
However, in general I plead guilty to all charges of contradicting myself.
If you have some input on the abbreviation issue I hereby ask you share it
now.  I don't think at this point any more votes are going to have much
impact on the results however, as you can see, the *analysis* has proved
very interesting and I've learned a lot.
-Connie

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Jalal Maleki wrote:

> Well Mr. Bobroff,
>
> Aren't you contradicting yourself. You first restrict the
> discussion to people inside Iran and exclude others because
> they may have been influenced by another language and now
> you are interested in Afghan and Tajik data!? Don't you
> think that there is a chance that Tajiks, for example, would
> have probably been infected by the abbreviation conventions of
> other languages?
>
> Jalal Maleki
> Sweden
>
> >>
> >> Please email me your answer: yes, no, often, rarely, never... according
> >> to what you've seen and I'll summarize.  Again, those living
> >> outside Iran, please don't participate because you may have been
> >> influenced by another language.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> -Connie
> >> ___
>
> >Omid,
> >
> >Thanks and good idea.
> >
> >Why not also include Afghan and Tajik data?  No one is looking out for
> >them. For example, I recently tried to figure out the date in Afghanistan.
> >There are dozens of online converters but all they've done I think is take
> >FarsiWeb's Jalali converter and change Esfand to Hut, etc with no
> >attention to the different way the leap year is calculated making the
> >calendar useless.  (Luckily someone finally provided me with a trustworthy
> >off-line calendar.) Then I tried to type a paragraph in Tajik and the best
> >font I could find was a hacked Times New Roman which was unusable.  A side
> >benefit to taking the other "Persians" into consideration is that it
> >brings up issues of Iran Persian which might have otherwise gone
> >unnoticed.
> >
> >Just a humble suggestion.
> >
> >-Connie
> >
>
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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

[C Bobroff]

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> Seems like I still should clarify some things for you :).
You've indeed clarified the conflicting results of the vote.  I shall
update my info accordingly.

> So, next time, don't let Roozbeh fool you with sayin those guys
> use it in Sharif University :P.
OK, but kindly don't involve Roozbeh in any  flamefests until AFTER he's
done with the fonts.  Then you may have a go at him all you like :)

> If you find anyone who claims
> "letter form" is used in Persian for anything other than what I
> described, ..., he's trying to confuse you for sure :P.

> Ok, time to go,

OK, some other time we can discuss use of ZWJ & tatweel & isolated letter
plus period used for abbreviations/short forms in Persian dictionaries.
(There's usually a chart in the front of the book.)
Something to look forward to in the future.

-Connie
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Re: Days of the Week abbreviated

[C Bobroff]

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:

> Oh! I am late to vote!

No hurry, votes can be added any time. All I ask is that voters
actually be living in Iran. If anyone else still wants to submit their
vote, please do so.

> It is very common to use the first letter of weekdays in month calendars.
Interesting that we have the full spectrum now from "never" to
"very common."

-Connie
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