Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 2004-06-21 at 04:34, C Bobroff wrote: > On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > > > we are *specifying* a single way to do > > things. > > Why the 2 calendars then? Behdad gave some reason. The other is: because there may be other restrictions. So we are practically saying if you want to do it vertical, do it this way, if you want to do it horizontal, do it that way. If you don't care about horizontal or vertical, we will give you a preferred way. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: > > On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > > > we are *specifying* a single way to do > > things. > > Why the 2 calendars then? Because in that case, both are acceptable and widely in use in Iran. In the case of putting Kasre in personal names, PUTTING KASRE IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. Because more than 95% will tell you they have never seen Kasre in PRINTED in personal names. > -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > we are *specifying* a single way to do > things. Why the 2 calendars then? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sat, 2004-06-19 at 00:32, C Bobroff wrote: > I'm so glad you also now see that to *forbid* marking ezaafe in personal > names is absurd. Connie, Please! You really don't see the point? We are not documenting practice in the locale spec, we are *specifying* a single way to do things. People are very welcome to ignore the specification and do whatever they like to do, if they don't claim they follow it. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: > On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > > The bottom line: Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are > > people printing that thing in reality. > > Behdad, > > I'm so glad you also now see that to *forbid* marking ezaafe in personal > names is absurd. Well, not quite that. First, we never wanted to *forbid* that, just that we say the right way is not to put. Second, my expression is quite like this: "Thanks, Connie, you showed us that there are people printing Arabic Yeh instead of Persian Yeh in reality". Can you deduce from this sentence that using Arabic Yeh instead of Persian Yeh should not be forbidden? (And in fact a few people like Dariush Ashoori do that intentionally.) > Have a really nice day! You too. > -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
Behdad Esfahbod wrote: The bottom line: Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are people printing that thing in reality. I don't like to argue about how widely it's used anymore. If someone has an evidence of Persian Academy putting this Kasre, please bring the issue up again for our reconsideration. As long as I remember, there has been a rule 'no "kasre" between name and family', and there was never anything in favour of "kasra" in this particular case. These examples, thanks to Connie, shows only some extreme cases, or typos. I, personally, need to see some linguists in favour of using "kasre". Best -ali- -- || Ali Asghar Khanban || ||Research Associate in Department of Computing ||| Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K. || Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599 ||| [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > The bottom line: Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are > people printing that thing in reality. Behdad, I'm so glad you also now see that to *forbid* marking ezaafe in personal names is absurd. Have a really nice day! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > > Come on Connie, you're still to provide a real example, from the > > books or streets whatever. > > The "streets" stuff was a joke and I'm afraid I led Ordak on--no pun > intended-- a wild-goose chase, (sorry!) but here are some from published > books: I'm not convinced with your examples. I don't accept them as authentic. Let's see inside: > http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNRahimEM.jpg While it looks like they have put all Kasre's, but there's none after "Moini", which is evidently pronounced in more places that the one after "Rahim". > http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNNaaserEKh.jpg "Naaser-e Khosro" is a WEIRD. I have never heard anyone pronounce it like that. Everyone just says "naaser-khosro" just like it's a single word. And again, it's not first-last name combination. > http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg I pretty share Mr Khanban's opinion here. To me, "ma'soome-ye ma'dan-kan" looks like anything but personal name. What about "ma'soom-e haftom"? > -Connie The bottom line: Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are people printing that thing in reality. I don't like to argue about how widely it's used anymore. If someone has an evidence of Persian Academy putting this Kasre, please bring the issue up again for our reconsideration. Thanks, --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote: > Sure. No argument about that. "ye badal az kasre" is used, as we all > know, when the first word ends in "aa", "oo", "unpronounced Heh", ... Ok, I'm going to update my website with info on marking the ezaafe one of these days. I'll submit it for flame-testing when done. Hang on for that. > BTW, talking about "unpronounced Heh", recently I found out that in the > first year of school, they don't call it like that any more. They call > it "e-ye aakher". I believe in other languages (maybe Kazakh??) there is some Unicode debate going on right now about this letter which can appear in the middle of a word in those languages. This may be part of the "ae" problem. I'm not sure. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
C Bobroff wrote: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote: http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg Only one name comes with "ye badal az kasre", which is a bit odd. It might be a typo in her name or in her ID. Concerning the Hamze Above instead of Kasre, I was just wanting to show that the "-e" (ezaafe) is written as well as spoken. The ezafe on words ending with unpronounced Heh (as in Ma`sumeh) is marked either as Heh+Hamze Above or Heh+ZWNJ+Yeh and in words ending with pronounced Heh (as in Roozbeh) is marked with Kasre. Again, in the case of personal names, the ezaafe is sometimes pronounced and sometimes not pronounced. This is also sometimes optionally reflected in the writing. Sure. No argument about that. "ye badal az kasre" is used, as we all know, when the first word ends in "aa", "oo", "unpronounced Heh", ... BTW, talking about "unpronounced Heh", recently I found out that in the first year of school, they don't call it like that any more. They call it "e-ye aakher". Anyway, in a general way, we can consider it a "kasre". I was told to give examples of the ezaafe written in personal names. I don't think that was supposed to be limited to only when ezaafe is marked with kasre. I might have misunderstood your comment though! Of course not. It didn't matter if it was "Ma'soome-ye ..." or "Maryam-e ...". In both cases I repeat my argument. But if it wasn't "ye badal az kasre", I wouldn't call it an ID typo, but just a typo. Best -ali- -- || Ali Asghar Khanban || ||Research Associate in Department of Computing ||| Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K. || Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599 ||| [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote: > >http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg > > > Only one name comes with "ye badal az kasre", which is a bit odd. It > might be a typo in her name or in her ID. Concerning the Hamze Above instead of Kasre, I was just wanting to show that the "-e" (ezaafe) is written as well as spoken. The ezafe on words ending with unpronounced Heh (as in Ma`sumeh) is marked either as Heh+Hamze Above or Heh+ZWNJ+Yeh and in words ending with pronounced Heh (as in Roozbeh) is marked with Kasre. Again, in the case of personal names, the ezaafe is sometimes pronounced and sometimes not pronounced. This is also sometimes optionally reflected in the writing. I was told to give examples of the ezaafe written in personal names. I don't think that was supposed to be limited to only when ezaafe is marked with kasre. I might have misunderstood your comment though! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
C Bobroff wrote: The "streets" stuff was a joke and I'm afraid I led Ordak on--no pun intended-- a wild-goose chase, (sorry!) but here are some from published books: http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNRahimEM.jpg This is an example of an extremist. Talking about extrimists, I remember a book that was written with capital letters (Persian Letters) from left to right. I call it an extra-extra-extremist. http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNNaaserEKh.jpg In the same picture, you see that all other names are written without "kasre". The "Naaser Khosrow" case is a bit different, as it is not a name and family name with a "kasre" in between. There are a few cases of writing it as "Naaser-e Khosrow". http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg Only one name comes with "ye badal az kasre", which is a bit odd. It might be a typo in her name or in her ID. In the second case, she should be called based on her ID, unless she changes it. Best -ali- -- || Ali Asghar Khanban || ||Research Associate in Department of Computing ||| Imperial College London, London SW7 2BZ, U.K. || Tel: +44 (020) 7594 8241 Fax: +1 (509) 694 0599 ||| [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~khanban ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
In my last post on this subject, I completely missed waw and alef at the end of first name. They take yeh of course. Incidentally this is the case that yeh can be omitted (in writing and pronunciation) without being slang. Or even being preferred in many cases. I tried to find a reason for that and I couldn't. But for what it worth, here is what I came up with: Both these vowels have a sustained sound which creates a natural vocal connection to the next word. As opposed to consonants for example which need a kasra to create this vocal connection. "vocal connection" If you are looking for rules, maybe this is one of criteria to be considered. (I couldn't find a better expression for it!) Behnam On 14-Jun-04, at 9:13 PM, C Bobroff wrote: The "streets" stuff was a joke and I'm afraid I led Ordak on--no pun intended-- a wild-goose chase, (sorry!) but here are some from published books: http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNRahimEM.jpg http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNNaaserEKh.jpg http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg -Connie ___ ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > don't pronounce them, but I agree that there are times that we do > and there should be some trick in there. Still looking for the > trick. ok, please figure out when you do and when you don't say the exact same name. That's what I'm after more than anything! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Come on Connie, you're still to provide a real example, from the > books or streets whatever. The "streets" stuff was a joke and I'm afraid I led Ordak on--no pun intended-- a wild-goose chase, (sorry!) but here are some from published books: http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNRahimEM.jpg http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNNaaserEKh.jpg http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > > > Our library is closed all weekend as we're on quarter break but I'll scan > > > a few covers for you on Monday. Maybe not until evening though. > > > > Eagerly waiting for them. > > As I said, I'm not even looking in books till this evening, however, even > though someone was recently saying Google can't handle harakat, I decided > to try my luck and the first name I tried, "Shirin-e Ebadi" gave me this: > http://www.kanoon-nevisandegan-iran.org/Shirin.htm > (look in the second line of text) > > Another: > http://www.vajehmagazine.com/archive/no_2/dialog.asp > (line 15: Sohraab-e Sepehri) > > There are zillions. How many examples will you guys be needing? I don't see any zillions, hardly a handul of them for your two examples. Compare with... errr.. > -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > I don't see any zillions, hardly a handul of them for your two > examples. Compare with... errr.. I meant on the internet there are zillions. I chose only two which is now two more than the total you admit to having seen in your entire life. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > Our library is closed all weekend as we're on quarter break but I'll scan > > a few covers for you on Monday. Maybe not until evening though. > > Eagerly waiting for them. As I said, I'm not even looking in books till this evening, however, even though someone was recently saying Google can't handle harakat, I decided to try my luck and the first name I tried, "Shirin-e Ebadi" gave me this: http://www.kanoon-nevisandegan-iran.org/Shirin.htm (look in the second line of text) Another: http://www.vajehmagazine.com/archive/no_2/dialog.asp (line 15: Sohraab-e Sepehri) There are zillions. How many examples will you guys be needing? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
>> I have a theory. I think if the surname sounds better as a possessive >> (of or belonging to a place, tribe, etc) we tend to pronounce a kasra, >> and if a surname is a profession or reputation we tend not to. >> >> You would say Omar Khayyam and also say Hafez-e Shirazi. > > Hafez-e Shirazi here is not a person's first and last name. > Doesn't count. But I'm trying to get my rules writter too. Ok, I'll use your example: Sayyed Ali-e Khaameneh'i ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: > On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > > To be honest, I have NEVER seen anyone put Kasre in personal > > names. > > You have! You just didn't notice. You also put them (i.e. pronounce the > ezaafe) in personal names when speaking which you also don't notice. So your now doubting my words?! ;-). As I said, I typically don't pronounce them, but I agree that there are times that we do and there should be some trick in there. Still looking for the trick. > Our library is closed all weekend as we're on quarter break but I'll scan > a few covers for you on Monday. Maybe not until evening though. Eagerly waiting for them. > I may or may not also record some audio of the same thing off the internet > for you. Luckily some nice person has just taught me the secrets of > streaming audio. We don't need the audio, everyone agrees that it's pronounced *in some situations*, more or less. > -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: > On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote: > > > Rule 1: The following rules only apply when first name is followed by last name > Most scientific. > > > Rule 2: Do not add ksare ezafe at the end of names foreign origin, > > even if they come from a Persian speaking country, e.g. Ahmad Shah > > Masoud. > Evidence from the streets does not support you. Come on Connie, you're still to provide a real example, from the books or streets whatever. > > Rule 3: Do not add kasre ezaafe at the end of first names ending with > > vowels, e.g., Ali, Minoo, Saba, Reza, Kaveh. However, adding a YEH + > > KASRE is sometimes done only for dramatic effects. For example, > > pronounce Ali Heydari as written, but it is acceptable (but not > > customary) to pronounce as Ali Ye Heydari. > > Yeh+kasre is ok in non-dramatic situations, too. > You're definitely correct about the Alif-ending first names. Yeah, who can deny "Sayyed Ali-e Khaamenei"? > > Rule 4: Do pronounce a weak, almost unnoticeable kasre ezafe at the > > end of first names ending with a consonant. > Ezafeh in general (not just in names) is not allowed to be stressed ever. > This is one of the properties of the Ezafeh. > > Nice of you to work on the problem, Ordak. It seems the same people who > saved a lot of money not making a Persian font also saved even more money > by not making a complete documented linguistic description of Persian nor > any [good quality] textbooks and [complete] grammars. Great that so much > money was saved! And then they talk about Jews... > -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > They are hard because they have really "never" seen anyone puts Kasre in > > personal names. Neither do I. It "is" sometimes pronounced but almost > > never written. > > I have a theory. I think if the surname sounds better as a possessive > (of or belonging to a place, tribe, etc) we tend to pronounce a kasra, > and if a surname is a profession or reputation we tend not to. > > You would say Omar Khayyam and also say Hafez-e Shirazi. Hafez-e Shirazi here is not a person's first and last name. Doesn't count. But I'm trying to get my rules writter too. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Behnam wrote: > When census and > registry people (roughly translated) knocked the door of my great grand > parents to issue piece of identification, each of the four brothers > picked a different family name! Funny! Thanks for sharing. > But I still think that Ordak made the best effort to come with some > rules. Yes, I think we can say Ordak was the first to attempt to document this phenomenon! I do not accept any of your other excuses as to why no one else has ever attempted this study though. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
You put a lot on the plate of linguists Connie and maybe rightly so but expecting absolute rules of pronunciation in a vastly regionalized (and unstructured) language like Persian is very very hard to satisfy. The closest you may come to general rules, is what Ordak came up with. Although I'd rather put kasra after first name ending with yeh and hamza after other vowels. I would not write kasra but I would write hamza. I'd always pronounce it unless it clearly sounds awkward or I'm talking slang. (I do pronounce Omer-e-Khayyam) but I don't write kasra unless I want to emphasize it. You see, even for the rules that I recommend, I am the first one to break! You must understand that first name and last name as we know it, is a fairly new concept in Iranian history and it evolved rapidly with the creation of institutionalized piece of identification. When census and registry people (roughly translated) knocked the door of my great grand parents to issue piece of identification, each of the four brothers picked a different family name! Not because they didn't know how to name each other, but because it didn't relate to this new concept of first name and last name. So when it comes to rules of pronunciation, it shouldn't be surprising that in each corner of the country, people improvised based on their traditional heritage. But I still think that Ordak made the best effort to come with some rules. Behnam On 13-Jun-04, at 5:11 PM, C Bobroff wrote: On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Elnaz Sarbar wrote: They are hard because they have really "never" seen anyone puts Kasre in personal names. Neither do I. It "is" sometimes pronounced but almost never written. OK, a sane person enters. Since you have at least *heard* it, please see if you can find a pattern as to WHEN it is said. Really, the speech-to-text people may thank you. For example, how is it that the same person, in the same speech will say, "Ahmad Shamlu mord." Then a few seconds later say, "Ahmad-e Shamlu, nevisandeh-ye borzorg..." What are the conditions involved? I suspect it follows strict natural laws of linguistics, and of course influenced by mood and style. I just want to know what they are! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote: > Rule 1: The following rules only apply when first name is followed by last name Most scientific. > Rule 2: Do not add ksare ezafe at the end of names foreign origin, > even if they come from a Persian speaking country, e.g. Ahmad Shah > Masoud. Evidence from the streets does not support you. > Rule 3: Do not add kasre ezaafe at the end of first names ending with > vowels, e.g., Ali, Minoo, Saba, Reza, Kaveh. However, adding a YEH + > KASRE is sometimes done only for dramatic effects. For example, > pronounce Ali Heydari as written, but it is acceptable (but not > customary) to pronounce as Ali Ye Heydari. Yeh+kasre is ok in non-dramatic situations, too. You're definitely correct about the Alif-ending first names. > Rule 4: Do pronounce a weak, almost unnoticeable kasre ezafe at the > end of first names ending with a consonant. Ezafeh in general (not just in names) is not allowed to be stressed ever. This is one of the properties of the Ezafeh. Nice of you to work on the problem, Ordak. It seems the same people who saved a lot of money not making a Persian font also saved even more money by not making a complete documented linguistic description of Persian nor any [good quality] textbooks and [complete] grammars. Great that so much money was saved! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > You would say Omar Khayyam and also say Hafez-e Shirazi. Hehe. I've recently seen Omar-e Khayyam in the middle of some text (not on the decorative front cover) written with Kasre. Too bad I forgot where it was... -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Elnaz Sarbar wrote: > They are hard because they have really "never" seen anyone puts Kasre in > personal names. Neither do I. It "is" sometimes pronounced but almost > never written. OK, a sane person enters. Since you have at least *heard* it, please see if you can find a pattern as to WHEN it is said. Really, the speech-to-text people may thank you. For example, how is it that the same person, in the same speech will say, "Ahmad Shamlu mord." Then a few seconds later say, "Ahmad-e Shamlu, nevisandeh-ye borzorg..." What are the conditions involved? I suspect it follows strict natural laws of linguistics, and of course influenced by mood and style. I just want to know what they are! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
Here are my observed rules of 'pronouncing' kasre ezaafe in pronunciation of first name. Rule 1: The following rules only apply when first name is followed by last name Rule 2: Do not add ksare ezafe at the end of names foreign origin, even if they come from a Persian speaking country, e.g. Ahmad Shah Masoud. Rule 3: Do not add kasre ezaafe at the end of first names ending with vowels, e.g., Ali, Minoo, Saba, Reza, Kaveh. However, adding a YEH + KASRE is sometimes done only for dramatic effects. For example, pronounce Ali Heydari as written, but it is acceptable (but not customary) to pronounce as Ali Ye Heydari. Rule 4: Do pronounce a weak, almost unnoticeable kasre ezafe at the end of first names ending with a consonant. On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:50:13 +0430, Roozbeh Pournader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 04:52, C Bobroff wrote: > > You have! You just didn't notice. You also put them (i.e. pronounce the > > ezaafe) in personal names when speaking which you also don't notice. > > Like in "feredrish-e niche", or "reymond-e kaarver"? ;) > > roozbeh > > > > ___ > PersianComputing mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing > ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
> They are hard because they have really "never" seen anyone puts Kasre in > personal names. Neither do I. It "is" sometimes pronounced but almost > never written. I have a theory. I think if the surname sounds better as a possessive (of or belonging to a place, tribe, etc) we tend to pronounce a kasra, and if a surname is a profession or reputation we tend not to. You would say Omar Khayyam and also say Hafez-e Shirazi. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
They are hard because they have really "never" seen anyone puts Kasre in personal names. Neither do I. It "is" sometimes pronounced but almost never written. Elnaz > Well, "all the time" does not, in fact, mean "all the time" in English. > It just means "all the time." You know, a synonym for "sometimes!" > Why do you have to always be so hard on the poor molla from Qazvin? > > -Connie > > ___ > > PersianComputing mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing > > > > > > --behdad > behdad.org > ___ > PersianComputing mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 04:52, C Bobroff wrote: > You have! You just didn't notice. You also put them (i.e. pronounce the > ezaafe) in personal names when speaking which you also don't notice. Like in "feredrish-e niche", or "reymond-e kaarver"? ;) roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > To be honest, I have NEVER seen anyone put Kasre in personal > names. You have! You just didn't notice. You also put them (i.e. pronounce the ezaafe) in personal names when speaking which you also don't notice. Our library is closed all weekend as we're on quarter break but I'll scan a few covers for you on Monday. Maybe not until evening though. I may or may not also record some audio of the same thing off the internet for you. Luckily some nice person has just taught me the secrets of streaming audio. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
