Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
* F. Jovan Jester ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > 1. a - old notation > 2. a > 3. e & d > 4. b & c *blink* hmm. How about 1 and 2? (is this an April fools joke?) Stephen signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
1. a - old notation 2. a 3. e & d 4. b & c -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
1) What type of names do you prefer? --- b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... 2) How often do you use these tools? --- a) every day (e.g. in my cron) 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? -- -- b) pg_initdb 4) How do you perform VACUUM? - a) vacuumdb - shell command b) VACUUM - SQL command [ Clemens Schwaighofer -=:~ ] [ IT Engineer/Manager, TEQUILA\ Japan IT Group ] [6-17-2 Ginza Chuo-ku, Tokyo 104-8167, JAPAN ] [ Tel: +81-(0)3-3545-7703Fax: +81-(0)3-3545-7343 ] [ http://www.tequila.co.jp ] -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On 01/04/2008, Steve Crawford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One advantage of using a consistent prefix is that when you have
> forgotten the exact name of a rarely used command and you are using a
> shell with readline support, "pg_" will bring up a list of
> available commands.
For any value of shell IN {bash, tcsh, zsh}.
sh (default on solaris) and ksh won't, and neither will cmd.exe
But I (as a user of bash) see your point.
> Cheers,
>
> Steve
Cheers,
Andrej
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Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
I've only been peripherally watching this thread and this may have been mentioned... One advantage of using a consistent prefix is that when you have forgotten the exact name of a rarely used command and you are using a shell with readline support, "pg_" will bring up a list of available commands. Cheers, Steve -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Tino Wildenhain wrote: Chris Browne wrote: ... pg_ctl is really more like the scripts in /etc/init.d; whatever it "ought" to be called instead, I don't think "safe_postgresqld" is it... eek. where is that save_ something coming from? From safe_mysqld , I imagine. I never understood the rationale behind that naming myself; names like pg_ctl, apachectl, etc seem to suggest their purpose more directly. -- Craig Ringe -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Chris Browne wrote: ... pg_ctl is really more like the scripts in /etc/init.d; whatever it "ought" to be called instead, I don't think "safe_postgresqld" is it... eek. where is that save_ something coming from? Apache uses apachectl which seems pretty forward - pg_ctl seems to be in the same spirit. Naming it pgctl could simplify typing and making it a wrapper (similar to zopectl :-) with start/stop/status/debug/run ... could have some benefit. Regards Tino -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Although I, too, am not fond of the current command names, I'm not aware of a naming conflict that is serious enough to warrant renaming. Do we have even one example of one significant naming conflict? Renaming executable seems likely to create much more confusion that it will solve. I loathe the idea of confounding years of newsgroup/mailing list wisdom, especially for newcomers. The specter of having to ask questions like "Which executable naming scheme are you using?" is also unpalatable. (Remember, this is the group that will engage in multi-message threads about postgres, postgresql, PostgreSQL, PG, postgre, etc. We'll need a new list for the fallout of renaming executables.) Perhaps one way to sidestep this issue is for you (Zdeněk) to create a pgFoundry project that provides the command line interface you propose by wrapping the existing postgresql binaries. This would provide the more rational names you seek. Furthermore, it could be used to provide the *sole* interface to postgresql if postgresql is configured with a --prefix that sequesters it from system paths. In the meritocracy of open source, your interface might become the official interface later on. I completely "get" your motivation and I appreciate your effort to tidy up. However, renaming is going to create problems, not solve them. (And, it's not even clear that there is a problem.) -Reece P.S. My responses: 1. a (do nothing) (or b if there really must be a change) 2. a (multiple times daily) 3. consistent with 1 4. c Blue. No, red. Aaah... -- Reece Hart, http://harts.net/reece/, GPG:0x25EC91A0
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 10:41:52PM -, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote: > > For the record, I think any renaming is a terrible idea, and a solution > in search of a problem. Any change, no matter how long it takes, will > break untold number of scripts, make us look bad, and frustrate > people, similar to the way that implicit cast removal did in 8.3, but > without the Very Good Reason to show people why we made the change. I agree with everything in the above. It would be easier for new users if we spelled it "list files" instead of "ls", and much safer if "su -; rm -rf /" always caused an error. But we have to live with the world we have, not the alternate universe contemplated in the _UNIX Haters' Handbook_. It is too late to change command names, even if it were a good idea. A -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > I would note that system utilities can be renamed at the packagers > behest. > > ./configure --exec-prefix=pg > > Yes this would create pgpg_ctl. No, this would make configure abort with an error message. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Tomasz Ostrowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 2008-03-28 02:00, Andrej Ricnik-Bay wrote: > > On 28/03/2008, Dawid Kuroczko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Agree, except I would prefer "pg" instead of "pgc". > > > > > And it's been taken for about 35 years by a Unix command called "page". > > From its man-page. > > >pg - browse pagewise through text files > > So maybe "pctl", consistent with "psql". > > It is short enough, does not need "shift" and does not confuse, if man > knows that it has something to do with Postgres. It looks it is yet not > taken. I like it. Personally "pctl" feels better than "pgc" :-) Regards, Dawid -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On 2008-03-28 02:00, Andrej Ricnik-Bay wrote: > On 28/03/2008, Dawid Kuroczko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Agree, except I would prefer "pg" instead of "pgc". > > And it's been taken for about 35 years by a Unix command called "page". > From its man-page. >pg - browse pagewise through text files So maybe "pctl", consistent with "psql". It is short enough, does not need "shift" and does not confuse, if man knows that it has something to do with Postgres. It looks it is yet not taken. Regards Tometzky -- ...although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were... Winnie the Pooh -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Adam Rich wrote: > > > Oh, then there should have been some options in the survey along the > > > lines of "things are fine how they are." > > > > Oh, a bit of answer-forcing wasn't beneath him. > > > Ummm... Isn't that what Option A is about ? > > > 1) What type of names do you prefer? > --- > a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... > b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... > c) new one with pg prefix - pgcreatedb, pgcreateuser ... > d) remove them - psql is the solution > e) remove them - pgadmin is the solution One very minimal idea that isn't listed here is just to rename createuser to createdbuser or createpguser, with similar changes for dropuser, createlang, and droplang. That gives all commands a 'db' or 'pg' in part of the command, with no underscores, and it matches the existing command that already have 'db'. -- Bruce Momjian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://momjian.us EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. + -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Greg Sabino Mullane napsal(a): Nobody want to rename psql. Personaly, I dislike current command names for long long time. Many times I tried create unix user by createuser command. And these names could be potential names of system commands. Yours is the first time I've heard of anyone with this problem. The useradd and adduser commands don't even start with the same letter. If it's that confusing, you can always use an alias or a symlink to make things more inline with what you want. It is not about letters but about memory :-). Currently it is not problem for me, but it was when I was starting play with Linux. For the record, I think any renaming is a terrible idea, and a solution in search of a problem. Any change, no matter how long it takes, will break untold number of scripts, make us look bad, and frustrate people, similar to the way that implicit cast removal did in 8.3, but without the Very Good Reason to show people why we made the change. I understand this point of view. And it is reason also why I asked if people use these commands or they prefer psql. For example nobody had complained that "createtablespace" command is missing. Does it mean that nobody uses tablespaces? It means everybody must use psql for tablespace creation. I personally use psql for everything. Only sometimes I use vacumdb or createuser command. Unfortunately, I not good survey maker and some tools usage statistic could be nice to have in survey as well. :( I have lived with current names and I can live with them in the future as well. Additionally, once we make the change, to which version do we refer to in the docs or when answering questions? You can't safely refer to the new commands until they've had time to percolate through as people update their database. And considering that I still work with some 7.3 system, and plenty of 7.4 ones, that could be a long time. Doc is related to version. And if you look on postmaster command in latest documentation that it says obsolete use postgres. *If* we're going to do this, at the very least it needs to be rolled out as a point revision update across all versions, so we minimize the confusion for people on older versions. We also need to keep symlinks or some other backwards-compatibilty around for a long time, *and* make a clean break at some future major version with lots of prior warning. I don't think so, that backport is necessary, but backward compatibility is obvious for new severals releases. By the way does postgreSQL has some EOL strategy? There are lot of OBSOLETE thinks mentioned in documentation, but I have never seen a list/roadmap when they will be removed. Zdenek -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Mar 26, 2008, at 7:25 AM, Zdeněk Kotala wrote: 1) What type of names do you prefer? --- a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... 2) How often do you use these tools? --- a) every day (e.g. in my cron) b) one per week c) one time d) never e) Multiple times an hour while I'm working. By hand and from scripts. 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? -- -- a) initdb 4) How do you perform VACUUM? - a) vacuumdb - shell command b) VACUUM - SQL command c) autovacuum e) All three of the above. Cheers, Steve -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
> > Oh, then there should have been some options in the survey along the > > lines of "things are fine how they are." > > Oh, a bit of answer-forcing wasn't beneath him. Ummm... Isn't that what Option A is about ? 1) What type of names do you prefer? --- a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... c) new one with pg prefix - pgcreatedb, pgcreateuser ... d) remove them - psql is the solution e) remove them - pgadmin is the solution -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On 28/03/2008, Dawid Kuroczko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Agree, except I would prefer "pg" instead of "pgc". > > With "pg" I am sure that the comand is "generic to the extreme", so I don't > have to assume what does "c" stand for. Control? Create? Client? or > Command. > > Also its about 33% shorter. ;-) And it's been taken for about 35 years by a Unix command called "page". >From its man-page. PG(1)User Commands PG(1) NAME pg - browse pagewise through text files I really find this whole discussion quite silly; it's about someone's personal preference? Don't get me wrong, I'm a lowly user when it comes to pg, and not a member of the hacker-community. But I've been using postgres for a good number of years now (since v7, I think) and have become quite accustomed to the names of the tools in use, have never observed any clashes with other tools, and as a Linux/Unix sys-admin type of person never had a problem with mistaking createuser for useradd or adduser. And I'll stick by the old maxim: if it ain't broken, don't fix it. >Regards, > > Dawid Cheers, Andrej > PS: And I feel it feels more natural to say "pg createuser" than "pgc > create user", but that's solely my "typing impression". And it's noticeably shorter to just type createuser ;} ... which worked a treat for many many moons. Cheers, Andrej -- Please don't top post, and don't use HTML e-Mail :} Make your quotes concise. http://www.american.edu/econ/notes/htmlmail.htm -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Mar 27, 2008, at 5:41 PM, Tom Lane wrote: Zdenek Kotala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Naz Gassiep napsal(a): So I ask again, we're not seriously thinking about this are we? Yes, we are. Make that "Zdenek is". The reason for this survey is that he's hoping to gather enough ammunition to overrule the opposition. Oh, then there should have been some options in the survey along the lines of "things are fine how they are." I replied to the survey assuming changes were going to be made and now all we had to do was figure out the best way to change. but I'd rather people spent effort on other things to begin with. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Ben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Mar 27, 2008, at 5:41 PM, Tom Lane wrote: >> Make that "Zdenek is". The reason for this survey is that he's hoping >> to gather enough ammunition to overrule the opposition. > Oh, then there should have been some options in the survey along the > lines of "things are fine how they are." Oh, a bit of answer-forcing wasn't beneath him. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Gregory Williamson wrote: No can do, already taken: "> man pg Reformatting pg(1), please wait... PG(1) User Commands PG(1) NAME pg - browse pagewise through text files Good catch. Haven't used that in ages. Aside: +1 to not actually changing anything, despite my previous response to the survey for the sake of responding to the survey. I agree with Greg Sabino Mullane in that this is *not* a problem. Colin -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Dawid Kuroczko escribió: > On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 11:49 PM, Greg Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > pgc cluster > > Agree, except I would prefer "pg" instead of "pgc". pg is already taken by an ancient Unix pager utility (predecessor of more, less, etc) -- Alvaro Herrerahttp://www.CommandPrompt.com/ PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Dawid wrote: [...] > > > abbreviations in cases where there's some overlap in characters: > > > > pgc cluster > [...] > > Agree, except I would prefer "pg" instead of "pgc". > No can do, already taken: "> man pg Reformatting pg(1), please wait... PG(1) User Commands PG(1) NAME pg - browse pagewise through text files SYNOPSIS pg [ -number ] [ -p string ] [ -cefnrs ] [ +line ] [ +/pattern/ ] [ file . . . ] DESCRIPTION Pg displays a text file on a CRT one screenful at once. After each page, a prompt is displayed. The user may then either press the newline key to view the next page or one of the keys described below. ..." The pain of realiasing pg would be significant, I think. Greg Williamson Senior DBA DigitalGlobe Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information and must be protected in accordance with those provisions. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. (My corporate masters made me say this.)
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 11:49 PM, Greg Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 27 Mar 2008, Leif B. Kristensen wrote: > > > I figure something like the more or less standard options for modern > > *nixes, with short and long options like eg. > > pgc -C, --createdb ... > > The idea thrown out was to use something like the CVS/svn model where a > single command gets called followed by either the name of the subcommand > or a very short abbreviation for it. Here's a first cut of how I would > translate the current names, with the things I use more given the shorter > abbreviations in cases where there's some overlap in characters: > > pgc cluster [...] Agree, except I would prefer "pg" instead of "pgc". Why? When I see "pgc" I am not sure what the command is for -- it looks like a short form for "pg create something", or maybe alias for pg_ctl, of which I know is for starting and stopping database (and not for creating users ;)). With "pg" I am sure that the comand is "generic to the extreme", so I don't have to assume what does "c" stand for. Control? Create? Client? or Command. Also its about 33% shorter. ;-) Regards, Dawid PS: And I feel it feels more natural to say "pg createuser" than "pgc create user", but that's solely my "typing impression". -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Zdenek Kotala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Naz Gassiep napsal(a): >> So I ask again, we're not seriously thinking about this are we? > Yes, we are. Make that "Zdenek is". The reason for this survey is that he's hoping to gather enough ammunition to overrule the opposition. In any case, there *will* be an option to continue to have the old names; it'll probably even be on by default, at least for awhile. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008, Leif B. Kristensen wrote: I figure something like the more or less standard options for modern *nixes, with short and long options like eg. pgc -C, --createdb ... The idea thrown out was to use something like the CVS/svn model where a single command gets called followed by either the name of the subcommand or a very short abbreviation for it. Here's a first cut of how I would translate the current names, with the things I use more given the shorter abbreviations in cases where there's some overlap in characters: pgc cluster pgc createdbcd pgc createlang cl pgc createuser cu pgc dropdb dd Not sure about short versions for any drop command pgc droplangdl pgc dropuserdu pgc initi initdb is careful not to overwrite anything pgc oid o pgc config pgc controldata pgc ctl c pgc dumpd pgc dumpall da pgc resetxlog rx Requires data dir before it doesn anything pgc restore r pgc reindexdb ri pgc vacuum v pgc vacuumlovl I'd also add these two: pgc start (pg_ctl start) pgc stop(pg_ctl stop) ecpg, pg_standby, pgbench, pltcl*, postgres, postmaster, psql seem like they really should keep their current names. Do not take any of the above as an endorsement of this idea; I think it's awful to even consider messing with anything when there are so many actual important things that time could be spent on instead. But if someone is going to argue for a redesign of the command names, I'd at least like to be talking about a good remapping. -- * Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: RIPEMD160 > Yes, I understand your point of view, but on other side there > are arguments in discussion, that for newbies old name are > terrible to use and frankly, who reads manual before he start > to use a product? This is a terrible argument. > Nobody want to rename psql. Personaly, I dislike current command > names for long long time. Many times I tried create unix user by > createuser command. And these names could be potential names of > system commands. Yours is the first time I've heard of anyone with this problem. The useradd and adduser commands don't even start with the same letter. If it's that confusing, you can always use an alias or a symlink to make things more inline with what you want. For the record, I think any renaming is a terrible idea, and a solution in search of a problem. Any change, no matter how long it takes, will break untold number of scripts, make us look bad, and frustrate people, similar to the way that implicit cast removal did in 8.3, but without the Very Good Reason to show people why we made the change. Additionally, once we make the change, to which version do we refer to in the docs or when answering questions? You can't safely refer to the new commands until they've had time to percolate through as people update their database. And considering that I still work with some 7.3 system, and plenty of 7.4 ones, that could be a long time. *If* we're going to do this, at the very least it needs to be rolled out as a point revision update across all versions, so we minimize the confusion for people on older versions. We also need to keep symlinks or some other backwards-compatibilty around for a long time, *and* make a clean break at some future major version with lots of prior warning. - -- Greg Sabino Mullane [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200803271839 http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iEYEAREDAAYFAkfsIosACgkQvJuQZxSWSshqnQCg0s7YAnxtF6qbOEiYYBifCR2y IYsAnRvjXCDrGaKUAFaOp88vidWYixUP =1til -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
- Original Message - From: "Zdenek Kotala" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Naz Gassiep" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "PostgreSQL" Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...) > Naz Gassiep napsal(a): > > > > > We're not seriously thinking of changing these are we? Once a command > > set has been in use for as long a time as the PG command set has, any > > benefit that may be derived by new users with an aversion to > > documentation reading is vastly offset by the confusion that would > > result among long time users whos scripts, tools and mental mental > > processes all have the old names hardcoded in. > > Yes, I understand your point of view, but on other side there are arguments in > discussion, that for newbies old name are terrible to use and frankly, who reads > manual before he start to use a product? MG>I do and frankly anyone who buys a product without understanding how this fits into the existing system MG>with no doc..no wiki ..no users group..is asking for heachaches.. MG>The whole idea of OpenSource project is participate in a project in which everyone is passionate about MG>create intelligent doc, create a wiki and have an active users group > > > I can't imagine how there would be a nomenclature clash, if there is, > > then just take one of the tools out of the path, use symlinks or put > > calling scripts in the path instead. These are suboptimal solutions, > > granted, but *any* naming scheme we change to will be subject to the > > possibility of naming clashes with another package with a similar name, > > unless we make the binaries have long, verbose names. I don't know about > > you, but I don't fancy having to type "postgresqlclient dbname" to start > > a DB. I like "psql dbname". > > Nobody want to rename psql. Personaly, I dislike current command names for long > long time. Many times I tried create unix user by createuser command. And these > names could be potential names of system commands. > > > So I ask again, we're not seriously thinking about this are we? > > Yes, we are. And this is a reason why I prepare this survey, because we could > not reach a decision on the -hackers. However, it seems that we choose third > variant with new wrapper command pgc. > > Zdenek > > -- > Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) > To make changes to your subscription: > http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general > -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Naz Gassiep napsal(a): We're not seriously thinking of changing these are we? Once a command set has been in use for as long a time as the PG command set has, any benefit that may be derived by new users with an aversion to documentation reading is vastly offset by the confusion that would result among long time users whos scripts, tools and mental mental processes all have the old names hardcoded in. Yes, I understand your point of view, but on other side there are arguments in discussion, that for newbies old name are terrible to use and frankly, who reads manual before he start to use a product? I can't imagine how there would be a nomenclature clash, if there is, then just take one of the tools out of the path, use symlinks or put calling scripts in the path instead. These are suboptimal solutions, granted, but *any* naming scheme we change to will be subject to the possibility of naming clashes with another package with a similar name, unless we make the binaries have long, verbose names. I don't know about you, but I don't fancy having to type "postgresqlclient dbname" to start a DB. I like "psql dbname". Nobody want to rename psql. Personaly, I dislike current command names for long long time. Many times I tried create unix user by createuser command. And these names could be potential names of system commands. So I ask again, we're not seriously thinking about this are we? Yes, we are. And this is a reason why I prepare this survey, because we could not reach a decision on the -hackers. However, it seems that we choose third variant with new wrapper command pgc. Zdenek -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Tom Lane napsal(a): Alvaro Herrera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Tom Lane wrote: I like this too. It'd be considerably more work than the currently proposed patch, though, since we'd have to meld the currently separate programs into one executable. I note that we can continue to have the current executables stashed in PREFIX/share/libexec and let the "pg" executable exec them. Not share/ surely, since these are executables, but yeah. This brings me to the idea that "pg" is a very small stupid program that just tries to match its first argument against a filename in PREFIX/libexec/postgresql. If it finds a match it execs that program with the remaining args, else it fails. If we do it that way then the problem of a client-only installation is solved: it merely has a smaller population of files in PREFIX/libexec, and "pg" doesn't know the difference. Also the problem of optionally providing the old names just reduces to providing links in bin/, whereas with a melded executable we'd need still more smarts to look at how it'd been invoked. So +2 or so for this one. It sounds good. Only one comments libexec is not on Solaris, but PREFIX/lib is allowed to use for this purpose. Zdenek -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Thursday 27. March 2008, Alvaro Herrera wrote: >Zdenek Kotala wrote: >> And what about two commands one for create and one for drop? >> It save 6 or 4 chars. >> >> pgc db (as create db) >> pgc user >> pgd db (as drop db) >> pgd user > >Well, there are things besides create and drop -- for example vacuum. I figure something like the more or less standard options for modern *nixes, with short and long options like eg. pgc -C, --createdb pgc -a, --adduser pgc -m, --modify pgc -D, --dropdb etc. Probably the short options should be capitals for db stuff, small letters for user stuff. -- Leif Biberg Kristensen | Registered Linux User #338009 http://solumslekt.org/ | Cruising with Gentoo/KDE My Jazz Jukebox: http://www.last.fm/user/leifbk/ -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Alvaro Herrera napsal(a): Zdenek Kotala wrote: And what about two commands one for create and one for drop? It save 6 or 4 chars. pgc db (as create db) pgc user pgd db (as drop db) pgd user Well, there are things besides create and drop -- for example vacuum. Yeah, good point I forgot vacuum and reindex. OK pgc looks good. Zdenek -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Zdenek Kotala wrote: > And what about two commands one for create and one for drop? > It save 6 or 4 chars. > > pgc db (as create db) > pgc user > pgd db (as drop db) > pgd user Well, there are things besides create and drop -- for example vacuum. -- Alvaro Herrerahttp://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Alvaro Herrera napsal(a): Tom Lane wrote: Alvaro Herrera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Greg Smith wrote: And if anybody suggests putting a "_" in something I have to type all the time, I will stick my fingers in my ears and start yelling until they stop. Bad enough I have to type pg_ctl a few times every day now. alias pgctl=pg_ctl Still, if we can't have "pg" then the whole idea loses a lot of its appeal. I'm not excited about having to type "pgcmd createdb ...", much less anything longer. What about pgc? And what about two commands one for create and one for drop? It save 6 or 4 chars. pgc db (as create db) pgc user pgd db (as drop db) pgd user Zdenek -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 6:46 PM, Ron Mayer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Zdeněk Kotala wrote: > > > 1) What type of names do you prefer? > > I'd prefer a "pg" program that took as arguments > the command. So you'd have "pg createdb" instead > of "pg_createdb". > > There are many precedents. "cvs update", "git pull" > "apt-get install". > > Anyone else like this approach? +10 I like "pg command" approach the best! Clean, simple, short and powerful. Erase my previous vote. ;) I prefer: pg createdb Regards, Dawid -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
> 1) What type of names do you prefer? 1 b > 2) How often do you use these tools? 2 c > 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? 3 e (pg_createcluster by Debian), then d or b > 4) How do you perform VACUUM? 4 c b (autovac & sql vacuum) Regards, Dawid -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Tom Lane wrote: > Alvaro Herrera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Greg Smith wrote: > >> And if anybody suggests putting a "_" in something I have to type all the > >> time, I will stick my fingers in my ears and start yelling until they > >> stop. Bad enough I have to type pg_ctl a few times every day now. > > > alias pgctl=pg_ctl > > Still, if we can't have "pg" then the whole idea loses a lot of its > appeal. I'm not excited about having to type "pgcmd createdb ...", > much less anything longer. What about pgc? -- Alvaro Herrerahttp://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Alvaro Herrera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Greg Smith wrote: >> And if anybody suggests putting a "_" in something I have to type all the >> time, I will stick my fingers in my ears and start yelling until they >> stop. Bad enough I have to type pg_ctl a few times every day now. > alias pgctl=pg_ctl Still, if we can't have "pg" then the whole idea loses a lot of its appeal. I'm not excited about having to type "pgcmd createdb ...", much less anything longer. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Greg Smith wrote: > And if anybody suggests putting a "_" in something I have to type all the > time, I will stick my fingers in my ears and start yelling until they > stop. Bad enough I have to type pg_ctl a few times every day now. alias pgctl=pg_ctl -- Alvaro Herrerahttp://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Greg Smith wrote: And if anybody suggests putting a "_" in something I have to type all the time... alias pgctl=pg_ctl If I were allowed to change the login profile on every system I touch I wouldn't be typing pg_ctl at all; I'd be typing "up" and "down" like on my laptop. -- * Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Shane Ambler wrote: Greg Smith wrote: And if anybody suggests putting a "_" in something I have to type all the time, I will stick my fingers in my ears and start yelling until they stop. Bad enough I have to type pg_ctl a few times every day now. +10 on hating "_" +20 if need be, I'd go with - (dash) over _ (underbar) -- Until later, Geoffrey Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Tom Lane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> I note that we can continue to have the current executables stashed in >> PREFIX/share/libexec and let the "pg" executable exec them. > Not share/ surely, since these are executables, but yeah. > This brings me to the idea that "pg" is a very small stupid program > that just tries to match its first argument against a filename in > PREFIX/libexec/postgresql. If it finds a match it execs that program > with the remaining args, else it fails. Add an optional command-line argument for specifying an alternative PREFIX, and the problem of multiple PostgreSQL versions on one host is solved as well. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Zdeněk Kotala pisze: Hello All, 1) What type of names do you prefer? b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... b 2) How often do you use these tools? b) one per week b 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? c) pg_init c 4) How do you perform VACUUM? a) vacuumdb - shell command b) VACUUM - SQL command c) autovacuum c -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On 27/03/2008, Zdeněk Kotala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 1) What type of names do you prefer? > --- > a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... a) Never seen any clashes with other tools in terms of names. And the old sys-admin creed: don't fix it if it ain't broken. > 2) How often do you use these tools? > --- > a) every day (e.g. in my cron) > b) one per week > c) one time > d) never e) occasionally > 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? > -- -- > a) initdb > b) pg_initdb > c) pg_init > d) pg_ctl -d init (replace initdb with pg_ctl new functionality) > e) What is initdb? My start/stop script does it automatically. a) initdb > 4) How do you perform VACUUM? > - > a) vacuumdb - shell command > b) VACUUM - SQL command > c) autovacuum > d) What is vacuum? c, b, a ... in this order. Cheers, Andrej -- Please don't top post, and don't use HTML e-Mail :} Make your quotes concise. http://www.american.edu/econ/notes/htmlmail.htm -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
> Please let us know your meaning, > > 1) What type of names do you prefer? > --- a) with c) as a second choice. Keep names simple. > 2) How often do you use these tools? > --- a) > 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? > -- -- a) > 4) How do you perform VACUUM? > - a) Yours, Laurenz Albe -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Zdeněk Kotala a écrit : I prepared patch for renaming postgreSQL script tools like createdb, createuser, etc. to pg_createdb, pg_creteuser. Original names will be kept for 2 or 3 following versions. The main reason for the patch is to avoid possible clash of names with systems tools. And after long discussion on patches and hackers list we have made a decision than we need input from wide audience. This is a reason why I prepare following surveys. 1 : a 2 : c 3 : a 4 : a -- Guillaume. http://www.postgresqlfr.org http://dalibo.com -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Greg Smith wrote: And if anybody suggests putting a "_" in something I have to type all the time, I will stick my fingers in my ears and start yelling until they stop. Bad enough I have to type pg_ctl a few times every day now. +10 on hating "_" -- Shane Ambler pgSQL (at) Sheeky (dot) Biz Get Sheeky @ http://Sheeky.Biz -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
1) What type of names do you prefer? --- a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... c) new one with pg prefix - pgcreatedb, pgcreateuser ... d) remove them - psql is the solution e) remove them - pgadmin is the solution a) 2) How often do you use these tools? --- a) every day (e.g. in my cron) b) one per week c) one time d) never b) 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? -- -- a) initdb b) pg_initdb c) pg_init d) pg_ctl -d init (replace initdb with pg_ctl new functionality) e) What is initdb? My start/stop script does it automatically. a) 4) How do you perform VACUUM? - a) vacuumdb - shell command b) VACUUM - SQL command c) autovacuum d) What is vacuum? b) We're not seriously thinking of changing these are we? Once a command set has been in use for as long a time as the PG command set has, any benefit that may be derived by new users with an aversion to documentation reading is vastly offset by the confusion that would result among long time users whos scripts, tools and mental mental processes all have the old names hardcoded in. I can't imagine how there would be a nomenclature clash, if there is, then just take one of the tools out of the path, use symlinks or put calling scripts in the path instead. These are suboptimal solutions, granted, but *any* naming scheme we change to will be subject to the possibility of naming clashes with another package with a similar name, unless we make the binaries have long, verbose names. I don't know about you, but I don't fancy having to type "postgresqlclient dbname" to start a DB. I like "psql dbname". So I ask again, we're not seriously thinking about this are we? Regards, - Naz. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Steve Atkins wrote: These were mostly rhetorical suggestions. Not serious in themselves, but hoping to make people come clean about why name changes of binaries might be needed. So far I haven't seen anyone besides Zdenek gives a reason why this is worth the trouble, and that reason has been "Sun's engineers don't like it". Now, that alone would be enough to make it a #1 priority if, say, Sun had just given the PostgreSQL community a billion dollars or something... I know I'd be curious to hear what the actual namespace clash concerns are here, because all this talk worrying about things like "vacuumdb" seems a bit silly to me--I'm not feeling that one as a likely problem one day. The create* set are the only examples that seem obviously misleading and problematic to me. I've had my own brain fog moments where I typed createuser when I meant useradd, and vice-versa. Oh, and everybody should give up on "pg" as a candidate for the universal command, those letters have been claimed in UNIX land many years ago. You might as well want "ls". "pgsql" or "pgcmd" might work; "pgc" is the shortest thing I can think of that would both make sense (as a short "pg command") and that isn't used anywhere. And if anybody suggests putting a "_" in something I have to type all the time, I will stick my fingers in my ears and start yelling until they stop. Bad enough I have to type pg_ctl a few times every day now. -- * Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 03:25:04PM +0100, Zdeněk Kotala wrote: > Hello All, > > I prepared patch for renaming postgreSQL script tools like createdb, > createuser, etc. to pg_createdb, pg_creteuser. Original names will be kept > for 2 or 3 following versions. The main reason for the patch is to avoid > possible clash of names with systems tools. > > And after long discussion on patches and hackers list we have made a > decision than we need input from wide audience. This is a reason why I > prepare following surveys. > > See: > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2008-03/msg01006.php > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2007-07/msg00055.php > > > Please let us know your meaning, > > thanks Zdenek Kotala > > > 1) What type of names do you prefer? > --- > > a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... > b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... b) > c) new one with pg prefix - pgcreatedb, pgcreateuser ... > d) remove them - psql is the solution > e) remove them - pgadmin is the solution > > > 2) How often do you use these tools? > --- > > a) every day (e.g. in my cron) > b) one per week b) (approx) > c) one time > d) never > > > 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? > -- -- > > a) initdb > b) pg_initdb b) Hrm. I'm seeing a pattern here ;) > c) pg_init > d) pg_ctl -d init (replace initdb with pg_ctl new functionality) > e) What is initdb? My start/stop script does it automatically. > > 4) How do you perform VACUUM? > - > > a) vacuumdb - shell command > b) VACUUM - SQL command > c) autovacuum c) > d) What is vacuum? Cheers, David. -- David Fetter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://fetter.org/ Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter Skype: davidfetter XMPP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remember to vote! Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve Atkins) writes: > There are no existing clashes with system tools that I'm aware of. Are > there any? Most of the clashes are with other installations of > postgresql installed on the same machine, so if name clashes is the > real reason for the change, then the version number or port number of > the installation should be part of the command name - pg_8.3.1_psql, > and so on. > > The normal way of dealing with multiple installations and name clashes > would be to set your shell path appropriately, though, surely? It's a > more normal way of dealing with that than renaming the actual binaries. pg_8.3.1_psql?? That seems pretty awful to me... My practice is to use PATH to control this. Debian has some "more or less idiosyncratic" tools to handle having multiple clusters around, with pg_wrapper controlling which of these binaries you wind up pointing to. I keep finding that I hate that, though I haven't gotten so mad about it that I have done anything about it ;-). > If, on the other hand, the main reason behind name changes were to > make the naming more intuitive for new users then changing the names > to something more appropriate might be useful. Perhaps something like > changing "postmaster" to "postgresqld", "pg_ctl" to > "safe_postgresqld", change "psql" to "postgresql", replace "createuser > -s monty" with "postgresql --user=root", followed by "GRANT ALL > PRIVILEGES ON *.* TO 'monty'@'localhost';" and so on. pg_ctl is really more like the scripts in /etc/init.d; whatever it "ought" to be called instead, I don't think "safe_postgresqld" is it... -- select 'cbbrowne' || '@' || 'linuxfinances.info'; http://cbbrowne.com/info/wp.html All ITS machines now have hardware for a new machine instruction -- PFLTProve Fermat's Last Theorem. Please update your programs. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Zdenek Kotala wrote: > One of my original idea was to create pg_cmd command which will integrate > all create/drop command in one. For example > > pg_cmd create database > pg_cmd list user > > and so on. I do like this idea, though I don't like the pg_cmd name, because it conflicts with pg_ctl on 4 chars before presenting a useful tab completion on the shell. Sadly, pg is already taken so we would need to find an alternative. Also I would vote for less verbose names -- pg vacuumdb, etc, and not "pg database vacuum". -- Alvaro Herrerahttp://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Alvaro Herrera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Tom Lane wrote: >> I like this too. It'd be considerably more work than the currently >> proposed patch, though, since we'd have to meld the currently >> separate programs into one executable. > I note that we can continue to have the current executables stashed in > PREFIX/share/libexec and let the "pg" executable exec them. Not share/ surely, since these are executables, but yeah. This brings me to the idea that "pg" is a very small stupid program that just tries to match its first argument against a filename in PREFIX/libexec/postgresql. If it finds a match it execs that program with the remaining args, else it fails. If we do it that way then the problem of a client-only installation is solved: it merely has a smaller population of files in PREFIX/libexec, and "pg" doesn't know the difference. Also the problem of optionally providing the old names just reduces to providing links in bin/, whereas with a melded executable we'd need still more smarts to look at how it'd been invoked. So +2 or so for this one. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Alvaro Herrera napsal(a): Tom Lane wrote: "Leif B. Kristensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: On Wednesday 26. March 2008, Ron Mayer wrote: I'd prefer a "pg" program that took as arguments the command. So you'd have "pg createdb" instead of "pg_createdb". I'll second that. It would be much easier on the brain, as you might issue a "pg --help" if you don't remember the exact syntax or even the name of each command. I like this too. It'd be considerably more work than the currently proposed patch, though, since we'd have to meld the currently separate programs into one executable. I note that we can continue to have the current executables stashed in PREFIX/share/libexec and let the "pg" executable exec them. If we are OK with restricting the scope of the "pg" program to client-side functionality, then there's no problem. Perhaps we can put the server-side functionality on pg_ctl. +1 Yes, pg(.*) for client side and pg_ctl for server side. Zdenek -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Ron Mayer napsal(a): Zdeněk Kotala wrote: 1) What type of names do you prefer? I'd prefer a "pg" program that took as arguments the command. So you'd have "pg createdb" instead of "pg_createdb". There are many precedents. "cvs update", "git pull" "apt-get install". Anyone else like this approach? One of my original idea was to create pg_cmd command which will integrate all create/drop command in one. For example pg_cmd create database pg_cmd list user and so on. It is also possible solution. But we need split client commands and server commands (initdb, pg_ctl, pg_controldata...). Zdenek -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Tom Lane napsal(a): "Leif B. Kristensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: On Wednesday 26. March 2008, Ron Mayer wrote: I'd prefer a "pg" program that took as arguments the command. So you'd have "pg createdb" instead of "pg_createdb". I'll second that. It would be much easier on the brain, as you might issue a "pg --help" if you don't remember the exact syntax or even the name of each command. I like this too. It'd be considerably more work than the currently proposed patch, though, since we'd have to meld the currently separate programs into one executable. One fairly serious objection is that doing so would eliminate the current distinction between client-side and server-side applications, at least if we wanted to fold both sets into one "pg" executable. So a client-only install would be carrying some baggage in the form of code that's useless if the server isn't local. If we are OK with restricting the scope of the "pg" program to client-side functionality, then there's no problem. I think we can use pg (or pg_cmd) for client side and integrate initdb and other tools into pg_ctl, as a "pg_ctl init" and so on. Zdenek -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Ron Mayer napsal(a): Tom Lane wrote: "Leif B. Kristensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: On Wednesday 26. March 2008, Ron Mayer wrote: ...a "pg" program that took as arguments the command. So you'd have "pg createdb" instead of "pg_createdb". I'll second that. ... I like this too. Though I guess we might need to find a different name if we want to go down that path. "man pg" tells me "browse pagewise through text files". IMHO "postgres createdb" is still better than the whole bunch of separate commands. Or even "pgSQL createdb" just so people know it's not a pre-SQL postgres database :-) My personal preference is pg_cmd :-). Zdenek -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Tom Lane wrote: "Leif B. Kristensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: On Wednesday 26. March 2008, Ron Mayer wrote: ...a "pg" program that took as arguments the command. So you'd have "pg createdb" instead of "pg_createdb". I'll second that. ... I like this too. Though I guess we might need to find a different name if we want to go down that path. "man pg" tells me "browse pagewise through text files". IMHO "postgres createdb" is still better than the whole bunch of separate commands. Or even "pgSQL createdb" just so people know it's not a pre-SQL postgres database :-) -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Le Wednesday 26 March 2008 15:25:04 Zdeněk Kotala, vous avez écrit : > 1) What type of names do you prefer? > --- > > a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... > b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... > c) new one with pg prefix - pgcreatedb, pgcreateuser ... > d) remove them - psql is the solution > e) remove them - pgadmin is the solution B One thing I really liked as a newcomer to PostgreSQL, compared to MySQL, was the ability to create users and databases from command line, like a sysadm is used to, meaning before learning how PostgreSQL works. Compare to GRANT ALL PRIVILEGES to USER ... WITH PASS... ; flush privileges; which tended not to work as stated in the documentation... well, I'm somewhat attached to those command line tools. > 2) How often do you use these tools? > --- > > a) every day (e.g. in my cron) > b) one per week > c) one time > d) never Each time I setup a new postgresql server / service, not quite as often as B, much more than C. > 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? > -- -- > > a) initdb > b) pg_initdb > c) pg_init > d) pg_ctl -d init (replace initdb with pg_ctl new functionality) > e) What is initdb? My start/stop script does it automatically. pg_createcluster > 4) How do you perform VACUUM? > - > > a) vacuumdb - shell command > b) VACUUM - SQL command > c) autovacuum > d) What is vacuum? autovacuum + a cron every 30 mins on some tables that need frequent purging. HTH, -- dim signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Wednesday 26 March 2008 16:25, Zdeněk Kotala wrote: > 1) What type of names do you prefer? > --- b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... > > 2) How often do you use these tools? > --- > b) one per week > > > 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? > -- -- > b) pg_initdb > > 4) How do you perform VACUUM? > - > a) vacuumdb - shell command c) autovacuum -- Aarni Ruuhimäki --- Burglars usually come in through your windows. --- -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Tom Lane wrote: > "Leif B. Kristensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > On Wednesday 26. March 2008, Ron Mayer wrote: > >> I'd prefer a "pg" program that took as arguments > >> the command. So you'd have "pg createdb" instead > >> of "pg_createdb". > > > I'll second that. It would be much easier on the brain, as you might > > issue a "pg --help" if you don't remember the exact syntax or even the > > name of each command. > > I like this too. It'd be considerably more work than the currently > proposed patch, though, since we'd have to meld the currently > separate programs into one executable. I note that we can continue to have the current executables stashed in PREFIX/share/libexec and let the "pg" executable exec them. > If we are OK with restricting the scope of the "pg" program to > client-side functionality, then there's no problem. Perhaps we can put the server-side functionality on pg_ctl. -- Alvaro Herrerahttp://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Tom Lane wrote: "Leif B. Kristensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: On Wednesday 26. March 2008, Ron Mayer wrote: I'd prefer a "pg" program that took as arguments the command. So you'd have "pg createdb" instead of "pg_createdb". I like this too. It'd be considerably more work than the currently proposed patch, though, since we'd have to meld the currently separate programs into one executable. If it'd help make it happen, I could work on a patch as a strawman. One fairly serious objection is that doing so would eliminate the current distinction between client-side and server-side applications, at least if we wanted to fold both sets into one "pg" executable. So a client-only install would be carrying some baggage in the form of code that's useless if the server isn't local. If we are OK with restricting the scope of the "pg" program to client-side functionality, then there's no problem. Could it detect if the server side components aren't installed and give a "server components aren't installed" error message if they aren't available?This could probably be handled reasonably portably if the "pg" program called a separate executable for the server functionality behind the scenes. From a user point of view, I think the single executable's nice. From an installer point of view, I think keeping them separate is nice. Seems both would be possible this way, tho. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
- Original Message - From: Zden?k Kotala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:25 am Subject: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...) > Hello All, > > I prepared patch for renaming postgreSQL script tools like > createdb, createuser, > etc. to pg_createdb, pg_creteuser. Original names will be kept for > 2 or 3 > following versions. The main reason for the patch is to avoid > possible clash of > names with systems tools. > > And after long discussion on patches and hackers list we have made > a decision > than we need input from wide audience. This is a reason why I > prepare following > surveys. > > See: > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2008-03/msg01006.php > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2007-07/msg00055.php > > > Please let us know your meaning, > > thanks Zdenek Kotala > > > 1) What type of names do you prefer? > --- > > a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... > b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... > c) new one with pg prefix - pgcreatedb, pgcreateuser ... > d) remove them - psql is the solution > e) remove them - pgadmin is the solution b) To avoid any conflicts with other tools, and boy do I love underscores. > > > 2) How often do you use these tools? > --- > > a) every day (e.g. in my cron) > b) one per week > c) one time > d) never e) Monthly, when a new user is added and/or when we re-deploy a new version of our system. > > > 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? > -- -- > > a) initdb > b) pg_initdb > c) pg_init > d) pg_ctl -d init (replace initdb with pg_ctl new > functionality)e) What is initdb? My start/stop script does it > automatically. b) It's Wednesday. > 4) How do you perform VACUUM? > - > > a) vacuumdb - shell command > b) VACUUM - SQL command > c) autovacuum > d) What is vacuum? c) For simplicity. > -- > Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) > To make changes to your subscription: > http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general > -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Mar 26, 2008, at 11:44 AM, Leif B. Kristensen wrote: On Wednesday 26. March 2008, Ron Mayer wrote: I'd prefer a "pg" program that took as arguments the command. So you'd have "pg createdb" instead of "pg_createdb". There are many precedents. "cvs update", "git pull" "apt-get install". Anyone else like this approach? I'll second that. It would be much easier on the brain, as you might issue a "pg --help" if you don't remember the exact syntax or even the name of each command. Seems like it'd be a fair bit more work to do than a simple rename, but the end result seems a nice clean solution. Would it make it more difficult to do a client-only installation if "pg" replaced both things like pg_ctl and initdb as well as createdb and createuser, though? Cheers, Steve -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
"Leif B. Kristensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Wednesday 26. March 2008, Ron Mayer wrote: >> I'd prefer a "pg" program that took as arguments >> the command. So you'd have "pg createdb" instead >> of "pg_createdb". > I'll second that. It would be much easier on the brain, as you might > issue a "pg --help" if you don't remember the exact syntax or even the > name of each command. I like this too. It'd be considerably more work than the currently proposed patch, though, since we'd have to meld the currently separate programs into one executable. One fairly serious objection is that doing so would eliminate the current distinction between client-side and server-side applications, at least if we wanted to fold both sets into one "pg" executable. So a client-only install would be carrying some baggage in the form of code that's useless if the server isn't local. If we are OK with restricting the scope of the "pg" program to client-side functionality, then there's no problem. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Mar 26, 2008, at 12:06 PM, Tom Lane wrote: Steve Atkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: On Mar 26, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Steve Atkins wrote: "pg_ctl" to "safe_postgresqld", Now that's plain weird. Yes, it is. But if the goal is to make it more approachable for people who are familiar with mysql, but not prepared to read postgresql documentation it's also the obvious change to make. If pg_ctl actually had any functional correspondence to safe_mysqld, then maybe that would be a sane suggestion. But it doesn't. They both "start the server". But, no, it's a long, long way from being a sane suggestion. Cheers, Steve -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Steve Atkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Mar 26, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Alvaro Herrera wrote: >> Steve Atkins wrote: >>> "pg_ctl" to "safe_postgresqld", >> >> Now that's plain weird. > Yes, it is. But if the goal is to make it more approachable for people > who are familiar with mysql, but not prepared to read postgresql > documentation it's also the obvious change to make. If pg_ctl actually had any functional correspondence to safe_mysqld, then maybe that would be a sane suggestion. But it doesn't. regards, tom lane -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Alvaro Herrera wrote: Steve Atkins wrote: There are no existing clashes with system tools that I'm aware of. Are there any? Most of the clashes are with other installations of postgresql installed on the same machine, so if name clashes is the real reason for the change, then the version number or port number of the installation should be part of the command name - pg_8.3.1_psql, and so on. Eeek! If we really want to go down that route, I would suggest that psql needs to become a bridge program that calls another program in $PREFIX/share/libexec. So 8.3 installs share/libexec/psql-8.3 and 8.2 installs share/libexec/psql-8.2. So bin/psql gets the server version and then execv() the appropriate executable from share/libexec. I would say if we went this way adding the version to the end could work. I would install pg_psql_8.3.1 as well as ln -s pg_psql_8.3.1 pg_psql This can allow more than one binary to be installed in the same base dir and as far as shell command completion goes you can use the last version installed by default or add a version to the end if desired. I do think that one main bridge program could be a good way to go. Leave the current named progs in place for a few versions though. Or have them as a config option. -- Shane Ambler pgSQL (at) Sheeky (dot) Biz Get Sheeky @ http://Sheeky.Biz -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
1. b 2. a 3. b (must be consistent with 1st question prefix) 4. c, b Bruno Lavoie Zdeněk Kotala a écrit : Hello All, I prepared patch for renaming postgreSQL script tools like createdb, createuser, etc. to pg_createdb, pg_creteuser. Original names will be kept for 2 or 3 following versions. The main reason for the patch is to avoid possible clash of names with systems tools. And after long discussion on patches and hackers list we have made a decision than we need input from wide audience. This is a reason why I prepare following surveys. See: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2008-03/msg01006.php http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2007-07/msg00055.php Please let us know your meaning, thanks Zdenek Kotala 1) What type of names do you prefer? --- a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... c) new one with pg prefix - pgcreatedb, pgcreateuser ... d) remove them - psql is the solution e) remove them - pgadmin is the solution 2) How often do you use these tools? --- a) every day (e.g. in my cron) b) one per week c) one time d) never 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? -- -- a) initdb b) pg_initdb c) pg_init d) pg_ctl -d init (replace initdb with pg_ctl new functionality) e) What is initdb? My start/stop script does it automatically. 4) How do you perform VACUUM? - a) vacuumdb - shell command b) VACUUM - SQL command c) autovacuum d) What is vacuum? -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Zdeněk Kotala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > 1) What type of names do you prefer? > --- > b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... OTOH, > d) remove them - psql is the solution > 2) How often do you use these tools? > --- > d) never I tend to call these functions within psql. > 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? > -- -- > c) pg_init > 4) How do you perform VACUUM? > - > b) VACUUM - SQL command > c) autovacuum Regards. -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Wednesday 26. March 2008, Ron Mayer wrote: >I'd prefer a "pg" program that took as arguments >the command. So you'd have "pg createdb" instead >of "pg_createdb". > >There are many precedents. "cvs update", "git pull" >"apt-get install". > >Anyone else like this approach? I'll second that. It would be much easier on the brain, as you might issue a "pg --help" if you don't remember the exact syntax or even the name of each command. -- Leif Biberg Kristensen | Registered Linux User #338009 http://solumslekt.org/ | Cruising with Gentoo/KDE My Jazz Jukebox: http://www.last.fm/user/leifbk/ -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:09:48 -0700 Steve Atkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yes, it is. But if the goal is to make it more approachable for > people who > are familiar with mysql, but not prepared to read postgresql > documentation > it's also the obvious change to make. I would note that system utilities can be renamed at the packagers behest. ./configure --exec-prefix=pg Yes this would create pgpg_ctl. Joshua D. Drake -- The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/ PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director | PostgreSQL political pundit signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On 26/03/2008, Zdeněk Kotala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello All, > > I prepared patch for renaming postgreSQL script tools like createdb, > createuser, > etc. to pg_createdb, pg_creteuser. Original names will be kept for 2 or 3 > following versions. The main reason for the patch is to avoid possible clash > of > names with systems tools. > > And after long discussion on patches and hackers list we have made a decision > than we need input from wide audience. This is a reason why I prepare > following > surveys. > > See: > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2008-03/msg01006.php > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2007-07/msg00055.php > > > Please let us know your meaning, > > thanks Zdenek Kotala > > > 1) What type of names do you prefer? > --- > > a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... > b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... > c) new one with pg prefix - pgcreatedb, pgcreateuser ... > d) remove them - psql is the solution > e) remove them - pgadmin is the solution > b) > > 2) How often do you use these tools? > --- > > a) every day (e.g. in my cron) > b) one per week > c) one time > d) never > > a) > 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? > -- -- > > a) initdb > b) pg_initdb > c) pg_init > d) pg_ctl -d init (replace initdb with pg_ctl new functionality) > e) What is initdb? My start/stop script does it automatically. b) > > 4) How do you perform VACUUM? > - > > a) vacuumdb - shell command > b) VACUUM - SQL command > c) autovacuum > d) What is vacuum? > > a) > > > > > > > -- > Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) > To make changes to your subscription: > http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general > -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Mar 26, 2008, at 10:46 AM, Alvaro Herrera wrote: Steve Atkins wrote: There are no existing clashes with system tools that I'm aware of. Are there any? Most of the clashes are with other installations of postgresql installed on the same machine, so if name clashes is the real reason for the change, then the version number or port number of the installation should be part of the command name - pg_8.3.1_psql, and so on. Eeek! These were mostly rhetorical suggestions. Not serious in themselves, but hoping to make people come clean about why name changes of binaries might be needed. If we really want to go down that route, I would suggest that psql needs to become a bridge program that calls another program in $PREFIX/share/libexec. So 8.3 installs share/libexec/psql-8.3 and 8.2 installs share/libexec/psql-8.2. So bin/psql gets the server version and then execv() the appropriate executable from share/libexec. I "strongly object" to the idea of renaming the main binary to add a version number to the name. The normal way of dealing with multiple installations and name clashes would be to set your shell path appropriately, though, surely? It's a more normal way of dealing with that than renaming the actual binaries. That's what I do, for one. Not necessarily the best design, but it's easy to do. Me too. And, given that, I don't see that hypothetical clashes with potential future system utilities (the assumption this survey thread is based on) is a particularly strong reason for renaming binaries. Perhaps something like changing "postmaster" to "postgresqld", It is already called "postgres" on newer versions. "pg_ctl" to "safe_postgresqld", Now that's plain weird. Yes, it is. But if the goal is to make it more approachable for people who are familiar with mysql, but not prepared to read postgresql documentation it's also the obvious change to make. Cheers, Steve -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Zdeněk Kotala wrote: 1) What type of names do you prefer? I'd prefer a "pg" program that took as arguments the command. So you'd have "pg createdb" instead of "pg_createdb". There are many precedents. "cvs update", "git pull" "apt-get install". Anyone else like this approach? Of the choices, though, I prefer (d). 2) How often do you use these tools? --- a) every day (e.g. in my cron) b) one per week c) one time d) never About monthly. I guess (b) is closest. 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? -- -- a) initdb b) pg_initdb c) pg_init d) pg_ctl -d init (replace initdb with pg_ctl new functionality) e) What is initdb? My start/stop script does it automatically. pg initdb Of the choices, though, I guess (d). 4) How do you perform VACUUM? - a) vacuumdb - shell command b) VACUUM - SQL command c) autovacuum d) What is vacuum? (c) on most databases (b) on certain databases -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Steve Atkins wrote: > There are no existing clashes with system tools that I'm aware of. Are > there any? Most of the clashes are with other installations of > postgresql installed on the same machine, so if name clashes is the real > reason for the change, then the version number or port number of the > installation should be part of the command name - pg_8.3.1_psql, and so > on. Eeek! If we really want to go down that route, I would suggest that psql needs to become a bridge program that calls another program in $PREFIX/share/libexec. So 8.3 installs share/libexec/psql-8.3 and 8.2 installs share/libexec/psql-8.2. So bin/psql gets the server version and then execv() the appropriate executable from share/libexec. I "strongly object" to the idea of renaming the main binary to add a version number to the name. > The normal way of dealing with multiple installations and name clashes > would be to set your shell path appropriately, though, surely? It's a > more normal way of dealing with that than renaming the actual binaries. That's what I do, for one. Not necessarily the best design, but it's easy to do. > Perhaps something like changing "postmaster" to "postgresqld", It is already called "postgres" on newer versions. > "pg_ctl" to "safe_postgresqld", Now that's plain weird. -- Alvaro Herrerahttp://www.CommandPrompt.com/ PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Zdenk Kotala wrote: 1) What type of names do you prefer? --- b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... 2) How often do you use these tools? --- b) one per week 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? -- -- b) pg_initdb 4) How do you perform VACUUM? - b) VACUUM - SQL command c) autovacuum -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
At 11:04a -0400 on Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Ivan Sergio Borgonovo wrote: > - maybe a pg[something] action may be better integrated with > bash auto-completion without rewriting a sql parser $ cat ~/.hypothetical_bashrc ... complete -o default -F postgres_completion_function pg_cmd ... $ pg_cmd CREATE ALTER VACUUM ... $ pg_cmd create DATABASE LANGUAGE USER Because it'd rely on a bash function installed somewhere in the user's session, it'd be perhaps not as universal as an installed binary. However, on a case-by-case basis, this can certainly work. Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Wednesday 26 March 2008, Zdeněk Kotala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 1) What type of names do you prefer? > --- > > a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... > b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... > c) new one with pg prefix - pgcreatedb, pgcreateuser ... > d) remove them - psql is the solution > e) remove them - pgadmin is the solution c Actually, I like a) because I'm used to them and they're in a lot of scripts, but I can see advantages to making them look pg-specific. > 2) How often do you use these tools? > --- > > a) every day (e.g. in my cron) > b) one per week > c) one time > d) never a > 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? > -- -- > > a) initdb > b) pg_initdb > c) pg_init > d) pg_ctl -d init (replace initdb with pg_ctl new functionality) > e) What is initdb? My start/stop script does it automatically. b See notes on #1 though. > > 4) How do you perform VACUUM? > - > > a) vacuumdb - shell command > b) VACUUM - SQL command > c) autovacuum > d) What is vacuum? c,a,b -- Alan -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Mar 26, 2008, at 7:25 AM, Zdeněk Kotala wrote: Hello All, I prepared patch for renaming postgreSQL script tools like createdb, createuser, etc. to pg_createdb, pg_creteuser. Original names will be kept for 2 or 3 following versions. The main reason for the patch is to avoid possible clash of names with systems tools. There are no existing clashes with system tools that I'm aware of. Are there any? Most of the clashes are with other installations of postgresql installed on the same machine, so if name clashes is the real reason for the change, then the version number or port number of the installation should be part of the command name - pg_8.3.1_psql, and so on. The normal way of dealing with multiple installations and name clashes would be to set your shell path appropriately, though, surely? It's a more normal way of dealing with that than renaming the actual binaries. If, on the other hand, the main reason behind name changes were to make the naming more intuitive for new users then changing the names to something more appropriate might be useful. Perhaps something like changing "postmaster" to "postgresqld", "pg_ctl" to "safe_postgresqld", change "psql" to "postgresql", replace "createuser -s monty" with "postgresql --user=root", followed by "GRANT ALL PRIVILEGES ON *.* TO 'monty'@'localhost';" and so on. Cheers, Steve And after long discussion on patches and hackers list we have made a decision than we need input from wide audience. This is a reason why I prepare following surveys. See: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2008-03/msg01006.php http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2007-07/msg00055.php Please let us know your meaning, thanks Zdenek Kotala 1) What type of names do you prefer? --- a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... c) new one with pg prefix - pgcreatedb, pgcreateuser ... d) remove them - psql is the solution e) remove them - pgadmin is the solution 2) How often do you use these tools? --- a) every day (e.g. in my cron) b) one per week c) one time d) never 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? -- -- a) initdb b) pg_initdb c) pg_init d) pg_ctl -d init (replace initdb with pg_ctl new functionality) e) What is initdb? My start/stop script does it automatically. 4) How do you perform VACUUM? - a) vacuumdb - shell command b) VACUUM - SQL command c) autovacuum d) What is vacuum? -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
At 10:25a -0400 on Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Zdeněk Kotala wrote: > And after long discussion on patches and hackers list we have made a > decision than we need input from wide audience. This is a reason why > I prepare following surveys. 1. b 2. b 3. b (but whichever, just be consistent) 4. b & c I don't care, really. The value of pg_* is that it'd obvious it's Postgres related, it'd be consistent with at least two other APIs I already know, it'd be easy for noobs to find with "pg_", and leaves room in a cooperative sense with other DBs that might eventually want to do something similar. That said I'm with Sam Mason: it's a wash if I use SQL or them. However, they're very nice for beginners, and getting beginners to start with a project is 3/4ths the battle in'nit? Kevin -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
1) What type of names do you prefer? --- a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... c) new one with pg prefix - pgcreatedb, pgcreateuser ... d) remove them - psql is the solution e) remove them - pgadmin is the solution b 2) How often do you use these tools? --- a) every day (e.g. in my cron) b) one per week c) one time d) never b 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? -- -- a) initdb b) pg_initdb c) pg_init d) pg_ctl -d init (replace initdb with pg_ctl new functionality) e) What is initdb? My start/stop script does it automatically. d 4) How do you perform VACUUM? - a) vacuumdb - shell command b) VACUUM - SQL command c) autovacuum d) What is vacuum? c -- Diogo Biazus [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.softa.com.br http://www.postgresql.org.br -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Zdeněk Kotala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > 1) What type of names do you prefer? > > d) remove them - psql is the solution > > > 2) How often do you use these tools? > > d) never > > > 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? > > a) initdb > > > 4) How do you perform VACUUM? > > b) VACUUM - SQL command -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com Ask me about EnterpriseDB's 24x7 Postgres support! -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
1.) b 2.) a 3.) b 4.) a+c On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:25:04 +0100 Zden__k Kotala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> thought long, then sat down and wrote: > Hello All, > > I prepared patch for renaming postgreSQL script tools like createdb, > createuser, > etc. to pg_createdb, pg_creteuser. Original names will be kept for 2 or 3 > following versions. The main reason for the patch is to avoid possible clash > of > names with systems tools. > > And after long discussion on patches and hackers list we have made a decision > than we need input from wide audience. This is a reason why I prepare > following > surveys. > > See: > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2008-03/msg01006.php > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2007-07/msg00055.php > > > Please let us know your meaning, > > thanks Zdenek Kotala > > > 1) What type of names do you prefer? > --- > > a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... > b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... > c) new one with pg prefix - pgcreatedb, pgcreateuser ... > d) remove them - psql is the solution > e) remove them - pgadmin is the solution > > > 2) How often do you use these tools? > --- > > a) every day (e.g. in my cron) > b) one per week > c) one time > d) never > > > 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? > -- -- > > a) initdb > b) pg_initdb > c) pg_init > d) pg_ctl -d init (replace initdb with pg_ctl new functionality) > e) What is initdb? My start/stop script does it automatically. > > 4) How do you perform VACUUM? > - > > a) vacuumdb - shell command > b) VACUUM - SQL command > c) autovacuum > d) What is vacuum? > > > > > > > > -- > Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) > To make changes to your subscription: > http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general -- Frank Finner Invenius - Lösungen mit Linux Köpfchenstraße 36 57072 Siegen Telefon: 0271 231 8606Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Telefax: 0271 231 8608Web: http://www.invenius.de Key fingerprint = 90DF FF40 582E 6D6B BADF 6E6A A74E 67E4 E788 2651 pgpyCpdiMDtV3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
> 1) What type of names do you prefer? > --- a. > 2) How often do you use these tools? > --- b. > 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? > -- -- d. > 4) How do you perform VACUUM? > - a + b + c. -- quicksil1er: "postgres is excellent, but like any DB it requires a highly paid DBA. here's my CV!" :) http://www.depesz.com/ - blog dla ciebie (i moje CV) -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
1. b 2. c 3. d 4. b and c I do most of my admin using SQL these days. my preference would be towards keeping them because they're nice in the beginning. Sam -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
1. b 2. b 3. b 4. c --- Raymond O'Donnell, Director of Music, Galway Cathedral, Ireland [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:25:04 +0100 Zdeněk Kotala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Please let us know your meaning, I hope it is the right place where to post. > 1) What type of names do you prefer? > c) new one with pg prefix - pgcreatedb, pgcreateuser ... I'd like the idea of having one command + action as in http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2007-06/msg00025.php and yeah I read the follow-up and Tom's comments on psql -c but still - maybe a pg[something] action may be better integrated with bash auto-completion without rewriting a sql parser - you could still have man pg[something] - it may simplify inputting passwords - it separates admin tasks from "sql coding" > 2) How often do you use these tools? > a) every day (e.g. in my cron) > 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? > d) pg_ctl -d init (replace initdb with pg_ctl new > functionality) + someone on the list pointed out consistency with 1) AND ;) > e) What is initdb? My start/stop script does it > automatically. > 4) How do you perform VACUUM? > c) autovacuum my 0.2 € -- Ivan Sergio Borgonovo http://www.webthatworks.it -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
1) b 2) c 3) d 4) b & c -- Mailed by: UnReAl4U - unreal4u ICQ #: 54472056 www: http://www.chilehardware.com/
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Zdeněk Kotala escribió: Hello All, I prepared patch for renaming postgreSQL script tools like createdb, createuser, etc. to pg_createdb, pg_creteuser. Original names will be kept for 2 or 3 following versions. The main reason for the patch is to avoid possible clash of names with systems tools. And after long discussion on patches and hackers list we have made a decision than we need input from wide audience. This is a reason why I prepare following surveys. 1) b 2) a 3) b 4) a and c smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
Zdeněk Kotala wrote: 1) What type of names do you prefer? --- a) old notation - createdb, createuser ... b) new one with pg_ prefix - pg_createdb, pg_creteuser ... c) new one with pg prefix - pgcreatedb, pgcreateuser ... d) remove them - psql is the solution e) remove them - pgadmin is the solution B 2) How often do you use these tools? --- a) every day (e.g. in my cron) b) one per week c) one time d) never B 3) What name of initdb do you prefer? -- -- a) initdb b) pg_initdb c) pg_init d) pg_ctl -d init (replace initdb with pg_ctl new functionality) e) What is initdb? My start/stop script does it automatically. B 4) How do you perform VACUUM? - a) vacuumdb - shell command b) VACUUM - SQL command c) autovacuum d) What is vacuum? B & C Colin -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
Re: [GENERAL] Survey: renaming/removing script binaries (createdb, createuser...)
> > Please let us know your meaning, > > thanks Zdenek Kotala > 1. c 2. a 3. other = "pginitdb", to be consistent with pgcreatedb,etc 4. a -- Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To make changes to your subscription: http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
