Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Joe Shirk]

what about haxe crosscompile language?

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[EuanM]

I think the market for cross-platform apps is large - but the market
for apps that you can't sell is small.  Being able to sell the
cross-platform apps via the iOS and Android app stores is key, imo.

As it is, I target Nintendo 2DS & 3DS, and Blackberry tablet and all
Windows as well as iPads, iPhones, Android phones and Android tablets.
Bit I still hanker after Cordova just to target the iPhone store.
Plus iPhone deals with web-sites awkwardly.  You have to present as
native, *or* the user has to bookmark each individual page they use.

On 14 December 2015 at 01:13, horrido  wrote:
> I thought so, too, which is why I wrote  this tutorial
> 
> for app development. However, there is some question surrounding Amber's
> viability in the longer term.
>
> And the demand for cross-platform apps may not be as big as we believe...
>
>
>
> tblanchard wrote
>> Where do I get this?
>>
>> I have to say I kind of think Pharo is missing the boat with regards to
>> mobile devices.  There is a huge demand for a mobile development platform
>> that allows one to write a mobile app that runs the same on Android and
>> iOS.
>>
>>> On Dec 12, 2015, at 03:51, Dimitris Chloupis 
>
>> kilon.alios@
>
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Pharo can already run on iOS
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866874.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[horrido]

Wow, the article about JPMorgan is extremely thin in terms of details! Most
of it is just marketing-speak. It's hard to write a meaningful piece with so
little content.

Is there anything else that provides substantial content???



NorbertHartl wrote
>> Am 14.12.2015 um 00:50 schrieb horrido 

> horrido.hobbies@

> :
>> 
>> I think I asked this before (at the start of the year), but if I were
>> given
>> an actual real-world *enterprise* customer /whom I could interview/ to
>> get
>> the *full story* of how they came to use Smalltalk, especially if they
>> were
>> coming from a major language such as Java, and what their particular
>> corporate issues were that compelled them to look for a better solution,
>> then I could run with it and write a lengthy story highlighting the
>> unique
>> advantages of Smalltalk in solving these issues. It would be a huge
>> marketing tool /because readers (hopefully, enterprise users) could
>> identify
>> with the story/ and see themselves following the same trajectory toward
>> Smalltalk/Pharo.
>> 
>> Perhaps somebody at ESUG or Pharo Consortium could provide such a
>> reference? 
>> 
> http://m.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/1978739/jpmorgan-makes-smalltalk-development-suite
> 
> Norbert
>> 
>> Stephan Eggermont wrote
>>> make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their 
>>> needs might be.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866868.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>





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Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[horrido]

Too bad JPMorgan didn't stick with Smalltalk. It seems that most of the big
success stories come from the 1990s and perhaps early 2000s. It would be
*real nice* to have a big success story from the last 10 years; otherwise,
it's hard to counter the notion that Smalltalk is hardly used any more.

Given what I have to work with, I could only come up with  this
  . It's a
little apologetic, but what can I do?



Esteban A. Maringolo wrote
> 2015-12-14 13:57 GMT-03:00 horrido 

> horrido.hobbies@

> :
>> Wow, the article about JPMorgan is extremely thin in terms of details!
>> Most
>> of it is just marketing-speak. It's hard to write a meaningful piece with
>> so
>> little content.
>>
>> Is there anything else that provides substantial content???
> 
> JP Morgan tried to replace most of their Smalltalk code since then,
> and after many failed attempts they migrated most of the Kapital
> system to Python, except for the exotics derivatives software, they
> failed on every attempt. It seems to be too complex and very well
> solved with the current implementation in Smalltalk.
> 
> JPMC have thousands of developers and ~100 of them develop with
> Smalltalk on a VisualWorks+GemBuilder+GemStone/S software.
> 
> Regards!
> 
> Esteban A. Maringolo





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Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Sven Van Caekenberghe]

> On 14 Dec 2015, at 09:56, Norbert Hartl  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Am 14.12.2015 um 00:50 schrieb horrido :
> 
>> I think I asked this before (at the start of the year), but if I were given
>> an actual real-world *enterprise* customer /whom I could interview/ to get
>> the *full story* of how they came to use Smalltalk, especially if they were
>> coming from a major language such as Java, and what their particular
>> corporate issues were that compelled them to look for a better solution,
>> then I could run with it and write a lengthy story highlighting the unique
>> advantages of Smalltalk in solving these issues. It would be a huge
>> marketing tool /because readers (hopefully, enterprise users) could identify
>> with the story/ and see themselves following the same trajectory toward
>> Smalltalk/Pharo.
>> 
>> Perhaps somebody at ESUG or Pharo Consortium could provide such a reference? 
>> 
> http://m.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/1978739/jpmorgan-makes-smalltalk-development-suite

If you need 'big names': https://gemtalksystems.com/about/customers/ especially 
the OOCL story is huge (i.e. world wide scale), 
http://www.gemstone.com/pdf/OOCL_SuccessStory.pdf

Now, let's go back to work to make all this possible, it won't happen by itself 
(improving Pharo and filling all those missing libraries).

> Norbert
>> 
>> Stephan Eggermont wrote
>>> make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their 
>>> needs might be.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> View this message in context: 
>> http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866868.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Esteban A. Maringolo]

2015-12-14 13:57 GMT-03:00 horrido :
> Wow, the article about JPMorgan is extremely thin in terms of details! Most
> of it is just marketing-speak. It's hard to write a meaningful piece with so
> little content.
>
> Is there anything else that provides substantial content???

JP Morgan tried to replace most of their Smalltalk code since then,
and after many failed attempts they migrated most of the Kapital
system to Python, except for the exotics derivatives software, they
failed on every attempt. It seems to be too complex and very well
solved with the current implementation in Smalltalk.

JPMC have thousands of developers and ~100 of them develop with
Smalltalk on a VisualWorks+GemBuilder+GemStone/S software.

Regards!

Esteban A. Maringolo

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Norbert Hartl]

> Am 14.12.2015 um 00:50 schrieb horrido :
> 
> I think I asked this before (at the start of the year), but if I were given
> an actual real-world *enterprise* customer /whom I could interview/ to get
> the *full story* of how they came to use Smalltalk, especially if they were
> coming from a major language such as Java, and what their particular
> corporate issues were that compelled them to look for a better solution,
> then I could run with it and write a lengthy story highlighting the unique
> advantages of Smalltalk in solving these issues. It would be a huge
> marketing tool /because readers (hopefully, enterprise users) could identify
> with the story/ and see themselves following the same trajectory toward
> Smalltalk/Pharo.
> 
> Perhaps somebody at ESUG or Pharo Consortium could provide such a reference? 
> 
http://m.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/1978739/jpmorgan-makes-smalltalk-development-suite

Norbert
> 
> Stephan Eggermont wrote
>> make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their 
>> needs might be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866868.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Stephan Eggermont]

On 13-12-15 06:10, horrido wrote:

Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying to
steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising
direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation is
objective, *not defamatory*. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I
look for possible solutions.


I see you trying to steer without situational awareness.
The great goal is clear, but there are bumps on the road and there is no 
direct road to Rome. Your analysis of the situation is superficial and 
not helpful.


Marketing is most effective if it is aligned with strategy.
I was serious about you having to make those Wardley maps.
It all starts with user needs. Take a look at where new smalltalkers can 
come from (students, old smalltalkers using something else, software 
reengineering specialists, people from small languages who want an IDE 
for it, people dissatisfied with their current large community language, 
etc), make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their 
needs might be. Do the same for the people in our community 
(Researchers, independent developers, small group in a large high-tech 
company, legacy smalltalk group etc).


To understand and explain why and when they might be persuaded to use 
smalltalk, read
Mary Lynn Manns & Linda Rising, Fearless Change, Patterns for 
introducing new ideas

Geoffrey A. Moore, Crossing the Chasm
and possibly
Mack Hanan & Peter Karp, Competing on Value

From those user needs, make Wardley maps breaking down user needs in 
technology and community needs, making them more and more concrete. 
Identify what we support, where there are gaps and overlap, and what 
changes to expect.


Then decide where you can with minimal effort have the most impact and 
focus your marketing message there, using a positive story. Measure 
impact, see what changed and repeat.


Stephan

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[stepharo]

why don't you spend the time to write such mails into
- writing tutorial or
- just improving class comments of the well-known classs (such as 
set, dictionary, booleans, strings),

- create videos
you would have already an impact.
Now you are shouting in the desert and people will just put you on their 
black list.


Stef

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Dimitris Chloupis]

bingo !!!
+1.000.000.000

The problem is that there is so much hype about marketing thats easy to
miss the enormous fact that languages like C, C++, Java and Python are not
as popular as they are even with their big flaws without substance ,
without solving some serious problem that requires serious resources .
Foremosts those languages have been evolving for decades , take Python

and I am NOT talking the language itself I am talking the most popular
python implementation and the oldest , CPython, its 24 years.

Let me repeat this...

CPython IS  24 years OLD 

There is none smalltalk implementation that I am aware of that has been
actively developed for so long even though smalltalk as a language is far
older than that.

Now imagine where Pharo will be in 24 years wow it blows my mind
just trying to imagine.

And by the way Python had ZERO marketing , ZERO Zero funds, zero 
no money nada. nothing

Just one dude working his ass off to make a great language for scripting C
projects.

So in the end its all hard work, as it should be .

So back to work improving Pharo :)

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 12:17 PM stepharo  wrote:

> why don't you spend the time to write such mails into
>  - writing tutorial or
>  - just improving class comments of the well-known classs (such as
> set, dictionary, booleans, strings),
>  - create videos
> you would have already an impact.
> Now you are shouting in the desert and people will just put you on their
> black list.
>
> Stef
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Hilaire]

Le 12/12/2015 12:51, Dimitris Chloupis a écrit :
> Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well.
>
> On Android its still a work in progress but its improving

WIP but you can already get it working
Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.drgeo.android


Hilaire

-- 
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu
http://google.com/+DrgeoEu

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[EuanM]

Todd, have you investigated using Squeak/Pharo at the back-end and
Amber at the front end?

That's where I'm currently targetting my development work.

On 14 December 2015 at 01:59, Todd Blanchard  wrote:
> I've shipped several cordova/phonegap apps.
>
> It can work for a certain level of simplicity - but browser based apps don't 
> scratch my itch.
> I would be more interested in being able to develop a browser based app in 
> Pharo and deploy it to a phone or tablet.
>
>> On Dec 13, 2015, at 17:13, horrido  wrote:
>>
>> I thought so, too, which is why I wrote  this tutorial
>> 
>> for app development. However, there is some question surrounding Amber's
>> viability in the longer term.
>>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Robert Withers]

In the realm of marketing, having a clear objective is key, to unlock 
the artifact. Being a kid about it, to dig deeper into the inspirations 
of otexport LD_LIBRARY_PATH="/lib:/usr/lib:/usr/local/lib"hers, ignites 
it.  The kindling, however, must be a positive mental attitude (as 
espoused by bad brains). Critique is great, but allowing emotions to get 
behind being negative, let's it run that way.  What's positive? YOu can 
tell every new person that they add to the integrating capacity of a 
growing modern cloud meta system, with 9 layer stacks and clustered 
graphs of networked actors...real time.


Go for the multi-objective genetic approaches, really and truly. That's 
the best AI.


regards,
robert

On 12/13/2015 08:47 AM, horrido wrote:

Why is this "nonsense"? Are you saying it's not important to make Pharo
applicable to more problem domains? Are you saying that making Pharo useful
to more people in the IT community is a dumb idea?

What am I missing in terms of situational awareness? Clearly, *I am
clueless*, because I don't understand what you're getting at with Wardley
maps.

"Strategy means making choices." Are you suggesting that you've made hard
choices? Whatever those choices are, *the results speak for themselves*. The
IT community at large still ignores Smalltalk. Businesses are looking to
Java and JavaScript and Python and C++ /before/ they ever look to Pharo. I
don't know how you can deny this. I don't know how you can tell me it's
working out well for Pharo.



Stephan Eggermont wrote

On 12-12-15 22:45, horrido wrote:

Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention.

...


Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming
language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**.

Oh please, can you stop this nonsense?

If you want to learn something about strategy, read the blog
I posted earlier about, and create some Wardley maps for us.
Your situational awareness is lacking.
Strategy means making choices.

Stephan





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Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[horrido]

Why is this "nonsense"? Are you saying it's not important to make Pharo
applicable to more problem domains? Are you saying that making Pharo useful
to more people in the IT community is a dumb idea?

What am I missing in terms of situational awareness? Clearly, *I am
clueless*, because I don't understand what you're getting at with Wardley
maps.

"Strategy means making choices." Are you suggesting that you've made hard
choices? Whatever those choices are, *the results speak for themselves*. The
IT community at large still ignores Smalltalk. Businesses are looking to
Java and JavaScript and Python and C++ /before/ they ever look to Pharo. I
don't know how you can deny this. I don't know how you can tell me it's
working out well for Pharo.



Stephan Eggermont wrote
> On 12-12-15 22:45, horrido wrote:
>> Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention.
> ...
> 
>> Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming
>> language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**.
> 
> Oh please, can you stop this nonsense?
> 
> If you want to learn something about strategy, read the blog
> I posted earlier about, and create some Wardley maps for us.
> Your situational awareness is lacking.
> Strategy means making choices.
> 
> Stephan





--
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Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Dimitris Chloupis]

Yeah I am interesting to this too, I was not aware Dr. Geo was on Android
thats great news.

Hilaire why I cannot find Dr. Geo for my iPad mini ? Just got an iPad mini
as my Christmas present to myself :)

I would love to see a blog post by you how to get Pharo working on Android
and iOS . Any pointers ?

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:35 PM Martin Bähr <
mba...@email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:

> Excerpts from Hilaire's message of 2015-12-13 09:38:33 +0100:
> > Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years
>
> is there any description about the process involved in porting a pharo
> application to android?
> what do i need, how do i start?
>
> i am tentatively working on a desktop application, that in the long term i
> would like to see on the mobile phone, and i'd appreciate any insights and
> starting points on how this is done.
>
> greetings, martin.
>
> --
> eKita   -   the online platform for your entire academic
> life
> --
> chief engineer
>  eKita.co
> pike programmer  pike.lysator.liu.secaudium.net
> societyserver.org
> secretary
> beijinglug.org
> mentor
> fossasia.org
> foresight developer  foresightlinux.org
> realss.com
> unix sysadmin
> Martin Bähr  working in china
> http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Johan Fabry]

Just to say that Stephan expressed very eloquently my thoughts !

> On Dec 13, 2015, at 08:41, Stephan Eggermont  wrote:
> 
> On 13-12-15 06:10, horrido wrote:
>> Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying to
>> steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising
>> direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation is
>> objective, *not defamatory*. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I
>> look for possible solutions.
> 
> I see you trying to steer without situational awareness.
> The great goal is clear, but there are bumps on the road and there is no 
> direct road to Rome. Your analysis of the situation is superficial and not 
> helpful.
> 
> Marketing is most effective if it is aligned with strategy.
> I was serious about you having to make those Wardley maps.
> It all starts with user needs. Take a look at where new smalltalkers can come 
> from (students, old smalltalkers using something else, software reengineering 
> specialists, people from small languages who want an IDE for it, people 
> dissatisfied with their current large community language, etc), make some 
> persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their needs might be. Do 
> the same for the people in our community (Researchers, independent 
> developers, small group in a large high-tech company, legacy smalltalk group 
> etc).
> 
> To understand and explain why and when they might be persuaded to use 
> smalltalk, read
> Mary Lynn Manns & Linda Rising, Fearless Change, Patterns for introducing new 
> ideas
> Geoffrey A. Moore, Crossing the Chasm
> and possibly
> Mack Hanan & Peter Karp, Competing on Value
> 
> From those user needs, make Wardley maps breaking down user needs in 
> technology and community needs, making them more and more concrete. Identify 
> what we support, where there are gaps and overlap, and what changes to expect.
> 
> Then decide where you can with minimal effort have the most impact and focus 
> your marketing message there, using a positive story. Measure impact, see 
> what changed and repeat.
> 
> Stephan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry   -   http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD and RyCh labs  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  -  University of 
Chile

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Martin Bähr]

Excerpts from Hilaire's message of 2015-12-13 09:38:33 +0100:
> Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years

is there any description about the process involved in porting a pharo
application to android?
what do i need, how do i start?

i am tentatively working on a desktop application, that in the long term i
would like to see on the mobile phone, and i'd appreciate any insights and
starting points on how this is done.

greetings, martin.

-- 
eKita   -   the online platform for your entire academic life
-- 
chief engineer   eKita.co
pike programmer  pike.lysator.liu.secaudium.net societyserver.org
secretary  beijinglug.org
mentor   fossasia.org
foresight developer  foresightlinux.orgrealss.com
unix sysadmin
Martin Bähr  working in chinahttp://societyserver.org/mbaehr/

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Ben Coman]

> kilon.alios wrote
>> I think that is why its difficult to bring pharo to diffirent platforms,
>> the mentality of pharo and mentality of smalltalk is so specific that does
>> not fit easily into other platforms.

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 5:45 AM, horrido  wrote:
> Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention.
>
> This mentality says that "if you build it, they will come."

Yes they are coming...
http://consortium.pharo.org/

> Keep improving the platform and eventually people will find it.
> **Or not.** You don't really care. (As an aside, **how** will they find it???)



> This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The tool
> is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while
> they're welcome to join, *will not be missed if they go elsewhere*.

> This mentality says that the *size* of the Pharo community is not especially
> important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as
> *you're* having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality is
> that **a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community that
> grows large enough to support it**.

But fast growth also has its problems...
https://www.groovehq.com/blog/scaling

Particularly see point 1) "Scaling Shifts Your Team’s Focus"
I believe Pharo is still in a stage where it needs a lot of agility.
IF there was suddenly a large influx of newbies, then EITHER:
* the experts spend *all* their time answering newbie questions and
not moving the platform forward (with a wider pool of disruptive
opinions)
OR...
* the newbies are ignored, get a bad experience, leave, and then "tell
everyone else about it".

Currently early adopters of Pharo get the benefit of great support
from a direct line with the experts, which enhances their good
experience which they can report to others.   However it takes time to
grow a community to have a range of middle experience levels to buffer
the experts so they can continue to do *real* work to drive the
platform forward.  No matter how much you do on marketing, you can't
get away from the reality that sustainable *community* growth takes
time.

> In other words, until the user community reaches **critical mass**, a strong
> library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the breadth
> of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited.

But you don't reach critical mass until the library ecosystem is
sufficient for the masses.  Its catch-22.  This "bring them and they
will build it" has similar trouble as you concern against "build it
and the will come".

But if you can serve some limited domains very well, maybe you get
enough funds to provide time to build a broader library ecosystem.
http://www.inc.com/karl-and-bill/build-your-business-one-customer-at-a-time.html

cheers -ben

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Hilaire]

For iPad, it is gone because I did not renew my developer license, so
Apple remove it from the store. Sorry sorry :(

Concerning DrGeo on Android, I mostly forgot all the details to build it
as I did not update it since a couple of years (3 years).
Historically Dmitri Golubuvsky helped me a lot to build it [1].  But I
don't think he's working on it anymore.
Later Jannick Laval asked me how I did the DrGeo for android, he wanted
to try for Pratch, he wrote some notes you may find useful [2]

You may want to check the former source repository containing Android
package for Dr. Geo, I just open its access for you [3]
You may need the event VM glue code[4], not sure this is the most recent
one.
I am just writing from memory, so I may forget some key points.


However, in the long term a lot will have change in Pharo on Android:
- What I did was before Athens, I don't think Athens is working now on Android
- Bloc will very likely replace Morph, and it may be the think to use for 
Android perspective.


Hilaire



[1] https://code.google.com/p/squeakvm-tablet/w/list
[2] http://www.phratch.com/archives/408
[3] https://gforge.inria.fr/scm/browser.php?group_id=1308
[4] http://www.squeaksource.com/EventVM.html







Le 13/12/2015 16:24, Dimitris Chloupis a écrit :
> Yeah I am interesting to this too, I was not aware Dr. Geo was on
> Android thats great news.
>
> Hilaire why I cannot find Dr. Geo for my iPad mini ? Just got an iPad
> mini as my Christmas present to myself :)
>
> I would love to see a blog post by you how to get Pharo working on
> Android and iOS . Any pointers ?
>
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:35 PM Martin Bähr
>  >
> wrote:
>
> Excerpts from Hilaire's message of 2015-12-13 09:38:33 +0100:
> > Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years
>
> is there any description about the process involved in porting a pharo
> application to android?
> what do i need, how do i start?
>
> i am tentatively working on a desktop application, that in the
> long term i
> would like to see on the mobile phone, and i'd appreciate any
> insights and
> starting points on how this is done.
>
> greetings, martin.
>
> --
> eKita   -   the online platform for your entire
> academic life
> --
> chief engineer   
>eKita.co
> pike programmer  pike.lysator.liu.se
> caudium.net  
>societyserver.org 
> secretary 
> beijinglug.org 
> mentor 
>  fossasia.org 
> foresight developer  foresightlinux.org
> realss.com
> 
> unix sysadmin
> Martin Bähr  working in china   
> http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
>


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Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[p...@highoctane.be]

Python has some books with animals on the cover.

In the good old days, this mattered :-)

Phil

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Dimitris Chloupis 
wrote:

> bingo !!!
> +1.000.000.000
>
> The problem is that there is so much hype about marketing thats easy to
> miss the enormous fact that languages like C, C++, Java and Python are not
> as popular as they are even with their big flaws without substance ,
> without solving some serious problem that requires serious resources .
> Foremosts those languages have been evolving for decades , take Python
>
> and I am NOT talking the language itself I am talking the most popular
> python implementation and the oldest , CPython, its 24 years.
>
> Let me repeat this...
>
> CPython IS  24 years OLD 
>
> There is none smalltalk implementation that I am aware of that has been
> actively developed for so long even though smalltalk as a language is far
> older than that.
>
> Now imagine where Pharo will be in 24 years wow it blows my mind
> just trying to imagine.
>
> And by the way Python had ZERO marketing , ZERO Zero funds, zero 
> no money nada. nothing
>
> Just one dude working his ass off to make a great language for scripting C
> projects.
>
> So in the end its all hard work, as it should be .
>
> So back to work improving Pharo :)
>
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 12:17 PM stepharo  wrote:
>
>> why don't you spend the time to write such mails into
>>  - writing tutorial or
>>  - just improving class comments of the well-known classs (such as
>> set, dictionary, booleans, strings),
>>  - create videos
>> you would have already an impact.
>> Now you are shouting in the desert and people will just put you on their
>> black list.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>>

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[horrido]

That's an *enormous* amount of work!!!  No wonder it hasn't been done yet. 

I did identify one thing: get high school students (i.e., young people)
interested in Smalltalk. That's why I tried (and failed) to launch the
Canadian Smalltalk Competition. You should understand that I put a LOT of
work into this, *a great deal of sweat and tears*. You have no idea. (Just
ask David Buck of Simberon.)

I'm only one person; I can only do so much by myself. And unfortunately, I'm
coming to the end of the line.



Stephan Eggermont wrote
> On 13-12-15 06:10, horrido wrote:
>> Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying
>> to
>> steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising
>> direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation
>> is
>> objective, *not defamatory*. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I
>> look for possible solutions.
> 
> I see you trying to steer without situational awareness.
> The great goal is clear, but there are bumps on the road and there is no 
> direct road to Rome. Your analysis of the situation is superficial and 
> not helpful.
> 
> Marketing is most effective if it is aligned with strategy.
> I was serious about you having to make those Wardley maps.
> It all starts with user needs. Take a look at where new smalltalkers can 
> come from (students, old smalltalkers using something else, software 
> reengineering specialists, people from small languages who want an IDE 
> for it, people dissatisfied with their current large community language, 
> etc), make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their 
> needs might be. Do the same for the people in our community 
> (Researchers, independent developers, small group in a large high-tech 
> company, legacy smalltalk group etc).
> 
> To understand and explain why and when they might be persuaded to use 
> smalltalk, read
> Mary Lynn Manns & Linda Rising, Fearless Change, Patterns for 
> introducing new ideas
> Geoffrey A. Moore, Crossing the Chasm
> and possibly
> Mack Hanan & Peter Karp, Competing on Value
> 
>  From those user needs, make Wardley maps breaking down user needs in 
> technology and community needs, making them more and more concrete. 
> Identify what we support, where there are gaps and overlap, and what 
> changes to expect.
> 
> Then decide where you can with minimal effort have the most impact and 
> focus your marketing message there, using a positive story. Measure 
> impact, see what changed and repeat.
> 
> Stephan





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Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Martin Bähr]

Excerpts from Dimitris Chloupis's message of 2015-12-13 19:37:30 +0100:
> Thank you very much , I will study them one by one :)

thank you from me too. i won't be able to work on this soon (need to get the
desktop app ready first, which won't happen before the next GSoC, (but it might
happen as part of it)) but i appreciate this information being available.

greetings, martin.

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Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[horrido]

"Fast growth has its problems." I don't think we need to worry about that. 

Even if we're successful with a marketing campaign, it will take time to
aggregate substantial numbers of new Smalltalkers. It may take years to
reach the top 20 on Redmond. (We should be so lucky to have this problem.)

Building an ecosystem is not about funding. Developers (and businesses)
write new and useful libraries out of need *when they choose to use your
programming language*. Ask yourself this: Smalltalk, in its various
flavours, has been used commercially for more than three decades. After all
this time, why are there still useful libraries missing, libraries that you
find in the Java and Python worlds?

Can you honestly tell me that over the next 5-10 years, we'll see the gaps
in our library ecosystem filled in? I wouldn't bet my lunch money...



Ben Coman wrote
>> This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The
>> tool
>> is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while
>> they're welcome to join, *will not be missed if they go elsewhere*.
> 
>> This mentality says that the *size* of the Pharo community is not
>> especially
>> important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as
>> *you're* having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality
>> is
>> that **a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community
>> that
>> grows large enough to support it**.
> 
> But fast growth also has its problems...
> https://www.groovehq.com/blog/scaling
> 
> Particularly see point 1) "Scaling Shifts Your Team’s Focus"
> I believe Pharo is still in a stage where it needs a lot of agility.
> IF there was suddenly a large influx of newbies, then EITHER:
> * the experts spend *all* their time answering newbie questions and
> not moving the platform forward (with a wider pool of disruptive
> opinions)
> OR...
> * the newbies are ignored, get a bad experience, leave, and then "tell
> everyone else about it".
> 
> Currently early adopters of Pharo get the benefit of great support
> from a direct line with the experts, which enhances their good
> experience which they can report to others.   However it takes time to
> grow a community to have a range of middle experience levels to buffer
> the experts so they can continue to do *real* work to drive the
> platform forward.  No matter how much you do on marketing, you can't
> get away from the reality that sustainable *community* growth takes
> time.
> 
>> In other words, until the user community reaches **critical mass**, a
>> strong
>> library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the
>> breadth
>> of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited.
> 
> But you don't reach critical mass until the library ecosystem is
> sufficient for the masses.  Its catch-22.  This "bring them and they
> will build it" has similar trouble as you concern against "build it
> and the will come".
> 
> But if you can serve some limited domains very well, maybe you get
> enough funds to provide time to build a broader library ecosystem.
> http://www.inc.com/karl-and-bill/build-your-business-one-customer-at-a-time.html
> 
> cheers -ben





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Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Todd Blanchard]

Where do I get this?

I have to say I kind of think Pharo is missing the boat with regards to mobile 
devices.  There is a huge demand for a mobile development platform that allows 
one to write a mobile app that runs the same on Android and iOS.  

> On Dec 12, 2015, at 03:51, Dimitris Chloupis  wrote:
> 
> Pharo can already run on iOS

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[horrido]

I thought so, too, which is why I wrote  this tutorial

  
for app development. However, there is some question surrounding Amber's
viability in the longer term. 

And the demand for cross-platform apps may not be as big as we believe...



tblanchard wrote
> Where do I get this?
> 
> I have to say I kind of think Pharo is missing the boat with regards to
> mobile devices.  There is a huge demand for a mobile development platform
> that allows one to write a mobile app that runs the same on Android and
> iOS.  
> 
>> On Dec 12, 2015, at 03:51, Dimitris Chloupis 

> kilon.alios@

>  wrote:
>> 
>> Pharo can already run on iOS





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Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[horrido]

I think I asked this before (at the start of the year), but if I were given
an actual real-world *enterprise* customer /whom I could interview/ to get
the *full story* of how they came to use Smalltalk, especially if they were
coming from a major language such as Java, and what their particular
corporate issues were that compelled them to look for a better solution,
then I could run with it and write a lengthy story highlighting the unique
advantages of Smalltalk in solving these issues. It would be a huge
marketing tool /because readers (hopefully, enterprise users) could identify
with the story/ and see themselves following the same trajectory toward
Smalltalk/Pharo.

Perhaps somebody at ESUG or Pharo Consortium could provide such a reference? 



Stephan Eggermont wrote
> make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their 
> needs might be.





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Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[EuanM]

As a person who has posted video of Squeak and Pharo running on
Raspberry Pi, I have to disagree with teh statement "Pharo can already
run on ... Raspberry PI and works well.".

Squeak works well on the Pi, in my experience.  It's about an
order-of-magnitude more responsive to user input than Pharo, at
present.

On 12 December 2015 at 11:51, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well.
>
> On Android its still a work in progress but its improving
>
> On web you can already can use pharo for both the backend (server) and front
> end (browser-javascript-html-css)
>
> So Pharo has already spread on all major platforms , with the exception of
> Android where there is still work to be done to make it usable. In the dev
> list there was already an announcement for hiring a developer for one year
> to work on the Android. So Android is a matter of time too.
>
> For anyone that really cares about JVM in general as I already posted he/she
> can take JNIPort and improve it anyway he/she wants.
>
> Its not hard to create support for other languages if one wants to. I
> created support for python, another dude created support for R programming
> language who followed a similar approach to mine.
>
> But we all have personal reasons and needs for using pharo with other
> programming languages, I use it to script Blender the 3d application that
> happens to use python as its scripting language, other may use R for
> mathematical computations, other do web development, others want to make
> Android apps and so forth.
>
> Its impossible with such small community to fit the needs of every user of
> pharo or potential user, so it wont happen until like me you are ready to
> get your hands dirty to make Pharo work well for you. Else you are better
> coding in other language .
>
> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero
> <ajac...@yahoo.es> wrote:
>>
>> Hello
>>
>> The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers
>> will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java.
>>
>> The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more
>> extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is
>> to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no
>> phones nor phablets).
>>
>> Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero
>> 
>> De: Dimitris Chloupis
>> Enviado: ‎12/‎12/‎2015 10:25
>> Para: Any question about pharo is welcome
>> Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM
>>
>> Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based
>> languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont
>> even make the top 20.
>>
>> I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not
>> only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library
>> out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far
>> the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely
>> alive.
>>
>> The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM
>> or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to
>> stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though
>> both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess.
>>
>> Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely
>> active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides
>> to embrace JVM or JS as platforms.
>>
>> And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort
>>
>> http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort
>>
>> https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition
>>
>> I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement
>> pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication
>> bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code.
>>
>> Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo
>> with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to
>> stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message.
>>
>> Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobb...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java
>>> and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will
>>&g

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Robert Withers]

That's was it: sanguinity.

On 12/14/2015 12:18 AM, Robert Withers wrote:
I've always thought that squeak should have a set of measured, 
communicated emotional layer, but inverted. Measure a positive number 
that is better when it grows, instead of bad. The system could react 
to that measure, like it's gambling.


That would go in the half-layer of the 9 1/2 layer stack. The half is 
nexxt to the eighth market/cloud layer, below the 9th meta layer. It 
is the control layer. Every flow network needs a control layer in 
control theory.


Pi 2 or zero with some boards would be something.

regards,
robert

On 12/13/2015 11:48 PM, EuanM wrote:

As a person who has posted video of Squeak and Pharo running on
Raspberry Pi, I have to disagree with teh statement "Pharo can already
run on ... Raspberry PI and works well.".

Squeak works well on the Pi, in my experience.  It's about an
order-of-magnitude more responsive to user input than Pharo, at
present.

On 12 December 2015 at 11:51, Dimitris Chloupis 
<kilon.al...@gmail.com> wrote:

Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well.

On Android its still a work in progress but its improving

On web you can already can use pharo for both the backend (server) 
and front

end (browser-javascript-html-css)

So Pharo has already spread on all major platforms , with the 
exception of
Android where there is still work to be done to make it usable. In 
the dev
list there was already an announcement for hiring a developer for 
one year

to work on the Android. So Android is a matter of time too.

For anyone that really cares about JVM in general as I already 
posted he/she

can take JNIPort and improve it anyway he/she wants.

Its not hard to create support for other languages if one wants to. I
created support for python, another dude created support for R 
programming

language who followed a similar approach to mine.

But we all have personal reasons and needs for using pharo with other
programming languages, I use it to script Blender the 3d application 
that

happens to use python as its scripting language, other may use R for
mathematical computations, other do web development, others want to 
make

Android apps and so forth.

Its impossible with such small community to fit the needs of every 
user of
pharo or potential user, so it wont happen until like me you are 
ready to
get your hands dirty to make Pharo work well for you. Else you are 
better

coding in other language .

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero
<ajac...@yahoo.es> wrote:

Hello

The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java 
programmers

will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java.

The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more
extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The 
advantage is
to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal 
tablets (no

phones nor phablets).

Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero

De: Dimitris Chloupis
Enviado: ‎12/‎12/‎2015 10:25
Para: Any question about pharo is welcome
Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based
languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since 
they dont

even make the top 20.

I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM 
and not
only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any 
Java library
out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by 
very far

the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely
alive.

The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested 
about JVM
or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language 
tend to
stick with their own language mainly because both Java and 
Javascript though

both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess.

Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is 
barely
active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that 
decides

to embrace JVM or JS as platforms.

And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort

http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort

https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition

I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to 
implement
pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a 
communication
bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python 
code.


Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing 
pharo
with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people 
prefer to

stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message.

Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on.

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng 
<horrido.hobb...@gmail.com>

wrote:
According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month 
Java
and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In f

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Todd Blanchard]

I've shipped several cordova/phonegap apps.  

It can work for a certain level of simplicity - but browser based apps don't 
scratch my itch.
I would be more interested in being able to develop a browser based app in 
Pharo and deploy it to a phone or tablet.

> On Dec 13, 2015, at 17:13, horrido  wrote:
> 
> I thought so, too, which is why I wrote  this tutorial
> 
>   
> for app development. However, there is some question surrounding Amber's
> viability in the longer term. 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Robert Withers]

I've always thought that squeak should have a set of measured, 
communicated emotional layer, but inverted. Measure a positive number 
that is better when it grows, instead of bad. The system could react to 
that measure, like it's gambling.


That would go in the half-layer of the 9 1/2 layer stack. The half is 
nexxt to the eighth market/cloud layer, below the 9th meta layer. It is 
the control layer. Every flow network needs a control layer in control 
theory.


Pi 2 or zero with some boards would be something.

regards,
robert

On 12/13/2015 11:48 PM, EuanM wrote:

As a person who has posted video of Squeak and Pharo running on
Raspberry Pi, I have to disagree with teh statement "Pharo can already
run on ... Raspberry PI and works well.".

Squeak works well on the Pi, in my experience.  It's about an
order-of-magnitude more responsive to user input than Pharo, at
present.

On 12 December 2015 at 11:51, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.al...@gmail.com> wrote:

Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well.

On Android its still a work in progress but its improving

On web you can already can use pharo for both the backend (server) and front
end (browser-javascript-html-css)

So Pharo has already spread on all major platforms , with the exception of
Android where there is still work to be done to make it usable. In the dev
list there was already an announcement for hiring a developer for one year
to work on the Android. So Android is a matter of time too.

For anyone that really cares about JVM in general as I already posted he/she
can take JNIPort and improve it anyway he/she wants.

Its not hard to create support for other languages if one wants to. I
created support for python, another dude created support for R programming
language who followed a similar approach to mine.

But we all have personal reasons and needs for using pharo with other
programming languages, I use it to script Blender the 3d application that
happens to use python as its scripting language, other may use R for
mathematical computations, other do web development, others want to make
Android apps and so forth.

Its impossible with such small community to fit the needs of every user of
pharo or potential user, so it wont happen until like me you are ready to
get your hands dirty to make Pharo work well for you. Else you are better
coding in other language .

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero
<ajac...@yahoo.es> wrote:

Hello

The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers
will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java.

The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more
extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is
to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no
phones nor phablets).

Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero

De: Dimitris Chloupis
Enviado: ‎12/‎12/‎2015 10:25
Para: Any question about pharo is welcome
Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based
languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont
even make the top 20.

I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not
only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library
out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far
the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely
alive.

The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM
or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to
stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though
both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess.

Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely
active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides
to embrace JVM or JS as platforms.

And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort

http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort

https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition

I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement
pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication
bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code.

Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo
with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to
stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message.

Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on.

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java
and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will
most likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both
languages have been on an upward

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[horrido]

Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying to
steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising
direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation is
objective, *not defamatory*. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I
look for possible solutions.

It is precisely because of limited funding and influence that a group such
as yours should be more creative and openminded in how to advance the cause
of Smalltalk. For example, I have no resources whatsoever, but in my own
way, I've tried hard to advocate for Smalltalk using a marketing strategy. I
use whatever is available to me /for free/. I publish articles that are
sometimes controversial, but always thought-provoking. *They draw attention
to Smalltalk.* They spur debate. Ultimately, the goal is to get people to
/think/ about Smalltalk. Otherwise, it gets forgotten. Out of sight, out of
mind.

Okay, it's good that Pharo is being taught in some schools. But how many
schools are there in the world, and how many are NOT teaching Pharo? Look at
the United States and Canada, for example. Despite the evangelizing efforts
so far, the needle hasn't moved for Smalltalk. At least, not in any way
measurable to the public. At some point, one has to ask, "is this working?",
and if not, "how can we do things differently?" Why are you afraid to ask
these questions?

Smalltalk is not a religion. The goal is not to conquer all programmers, nor
all programming tasks. But increasing the breadth of applicability so that
Smalltalk benefits more of the IT world is surely a worthy ambition. *Right
now, it's barely a blip on the radar of most businesses.* That can't be a
satisfactory state of affairs.

In terms of this discussion, yes, size is everything. Smalltalk's library
ecosystem is demonstrably weak. (I dare you to ask me to provide an
example.) Why is this okay? A strong ecosystem would make Smalltalk/Pharo
much more useful to many more people in the IT world.

And how do you build a strong ecosystem? By growing the user community
sufficiently large. We've seen this scenario play out over and over and over
again...with Python...with Java...with JavaScript...with Scala...and soon
with Go. That's why popularity matters.

Please, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm trying to change the direction of an
ocean liner because I believe it's not moving in the right direction.
Obviously, this is a monumental task.

One last point: If Stephan's Wardley maps have been used by Pharo recently,
then I submit they haven't had the desired effects. Unless Pharo's status
quo *is* the desired outcome, in which case, I find that sad.



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866783.html
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Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[p...@highoctane.be]

Looks like there is Pharo engineer position that will take care of ARM.


On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 12:30 PM, Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero <
ajac...@yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hello
>
> The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers
> will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java.
>
> The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more
> extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is
> to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no
> phones nor phablets).
>
> Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero
> --
> De: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.al...@gmail.com>
> Enviado: ‎12/‎12/‎2015 10:25
> Para: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>
> Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM
>
> Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based
> languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they
> dont even make the top 20.
>
> I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not
> only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java
> library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by
> very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its
> barely alive.
>
> The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM
> or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to
> stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript
> though both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess.
>
> Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely
> active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides
> to embrace JVM or JS as platforms.
>
> And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort
>
> http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition
>
> I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement
> pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication
> bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code.
>
> Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo
> with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to
> stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message.
>
> *Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. *
>
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java
>> and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE
>> will most likely name Java *Programming Language of the Year* for 2015.
>> (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.)
>>
>> It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android
>> programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed
>> iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and
>> Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java
>> seems to be well-suited.
>>
>> (I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe
>> there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A
>> clean, simple syntax is very, very important!)
>>
>> I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java
>> cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on
>> Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress.
>>
>> Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus
>> on putting Pharo on the JVM?
>>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Stephan Eggermont]

On 12-12-15 02:53, EuanM wrote:

It's especially important to strategically, it is vital to get Smalltalk/Pharo
to tap into the Java ecosystem if Java itself gets deprecated by Oracle.

Everyone who has a lot of enterprise Java code will need something
that works on the JVM and will easily interoperate with Java
libraries.


No, it is not important strategically.

http://blog.gardeviance.org/2013/01/the-importance-of-maps.html

http://blog.gardeviance.org/2015/02/an-introduction-to-wardley-value-chain.html

Stephan

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero]

Hello 

The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers will 
never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java.

The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more extended 
platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is to have Pharo 
not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no phones nor phablets).

Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero 

-Mensaje original-
De: "Dimitris Chloupis" <kilon.al...@gmail.com>
Enviado: ‎12/‎12/‎2015 10:25
Para: "Any question about pharo is welcome" <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>
Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based languages 
(including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont even make 
the top 20. 



I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not only 
that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library out of 
the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far the most 
popular python implementation out there) and still its barely alive.


The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM or JS 
are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to stick with 
their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though both 
incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess. 


Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely 
active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides to 
embrace JVM or JS as platforms.


And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort

http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort

https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition
 

I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement pharo 
or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication bridge via 
sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code.


Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo with 
any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to stick 
with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message.


Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. 


On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and 
Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most 
likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both languages 
have been on an upward trajectory all year.)


It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android 
programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS 
in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then 
there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be 
well-suited.


(I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's 
an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple 
syntax is very, very important!)


I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be 
allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm 
not sanguine about its future progress.


Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on 
putting Pharo on the JVM?

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Dimitris Chloupis]

Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well.

On Android its still a work in progress but its improving

On web you can already can use pharo for both the backend (server) and
front end (browser-javascript-html-css)

So Pharo has already spread on all major platforms , with the exception of
Android where there is still work to be done to make it usable. In the dev
list there was already an announcement for hiring a developer for one year
to work on the Android. So Android is a matter of time too.

For anyone that really cares about JVM in general as I already posted
he/she can take JNIPort and improve it anyway he/she wants.

Its not hard to create support for other languages if one wants to. I
created support for python, another dude created support for R programming
language who followed a similar approach to mine.

But we all have personal reasons and needs for using pharo with other
programming languages, I use it to script Blender the 3d application that
happens to use python as its scripting language, other may use R for
mathematical computations, other do web development, others want to make
Android apps and so forth.

Its impossible with such small community to fit the needs of every user of
pharo or potential user, so it wont happen until like me you are ready to
get your hands dirty to make Pharo work well for you. Else you are better
coding in other language .

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero <
ajac...@yahoo.es> wrote:

> Hello
>
> The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers
> will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java.
>
> The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more
> extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is
> to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no
> phones nor phablets).
>
> Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero
> --
> De: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.al...@gmail.com>
> Enviado: ‎12/‎12/‎2015 10:25
> Para: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>
> Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM
>
> Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based
> languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they
> dont even make the top 20.
>
> I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not
> only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java
> library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by
> very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its
> barely alive.
>
> The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM
> or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to
> stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript
> though both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess.
>
> Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely
> active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides
> to embrace JVM or JS as platforms.
>
> And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort
>
> http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition
>
> I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement
> pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication
> bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code.
>
> Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo
> with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to
> stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message.
>
> *Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. *
>
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java
>> and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE
>> will most likely name Java *Programming Language of the Year* for 2015.
>> (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.)
>>
>> It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android
>> programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed
>> iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and
>> Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java
>> seems to be well-suited.
>>
>> (I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe
>> there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A
>> clean, simple syntax is very, very importan

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[p...@highoctane.be]

Java cannot do become:, so, that's not going to be a "real" smalltalk.

I do work w/ Java & Scala on a project.

First, JAR hell -> productivity killer

Second, lots of infrastructure needed: IDE, Maven, Artifactory, ... ->
another productivity killer

Long story short: prototype the thing in Pharo and if good enough, run it
there.

I've done that for one project of late. Net resut: it takes 5x the
engineers and 3x the time to do the same in X than with Pharo.

If you want to do Java/Scala, by all means, go there. But why the hell is
this going to be so important?

Read
https://www.quora.com/Of-the-emerging-systems-languages-Rust-D-Go-and-Nim-which-is-the-strongest-language-and-why

for lots of pro/cons arguments on other languages (which do not give a shit
about Java mean you).


Phil






On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:41 AM, horrido  wrote:

> At  Redmonk  >
> , Scala is a top 20 language (position #14). It's a widely used language,
> too, though not in the same league as Java nor Python. Even Clojure and
> Groovy are in the top 20.
>
> Scala is much, much more popular and widely used than Smalltalk. If
> Smalltalk could rise to Scala's level, it would be a huge win.
>
> The reason Amber and Redline and others have never achieved popularity is
> primarily due to the lack of proper marketing. There are a gazillion
> programming languages out there vying for developer attention. Smalltalk is
> completely lost in the noise. It's a great platform, but if it doesn't have
> developer /mindshare/, people won't try it. How do you think they'll find
> their way to Smalltalk/Pharo? By divination?
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866722.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Dimitris Chloupis]

Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based
languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they
dont even make the top 20.

I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not
only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java
library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by
very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its
barely alive.

The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM or
JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to stick
with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though both
incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess.

Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely
active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides
to embrace JVM or JS as platforms.

And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort

http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort

https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition

I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement
pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication
bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code.

Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo
with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to
stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message.

*Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. *

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng 
wrote:

> According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and
> Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will
> most likely name Java *Programming Language of the Year* for 2015. (Both
> languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.)
>
> It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android
> programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed
> iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and
> Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java
> seems to be well-suited.
>
> (I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe
> there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A
> clean, simple syntax is very, very important!)
>
> I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot
> be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline,
> but I'm not sanguine about its future progress.
>
> Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus
> on putting Pharo on the JVM?
>

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[horrido]

At  Redmonk  
, Scala is a top 20 language (position #14). It's a widely used language,
too, though not in the same league as Java nor Python. Even Clojure and
Groovy are in the top 20.

Scala is much, much more popular and widely used than Smalltalk. If
Smalltalk could rise to Scala's level, it would be a huge win.

The reason Amber and Redline and others have never achieved popularity is
primarily due to the lack of proper marketing. There are a gazillion
programming languages out there vying for developer attention. Smalltalk is
completely lost in the noise. It's a great platform, but if it doesn't have
developer /mindshare/, people won't try it. How do you think they'll find
their way to Smalltalk/Pharo? By divination?



--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866722.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Ben Coman]

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 8:41 PM, p...@highoctane.be  wrote:
> Java cannot do become:, so, that's not going to be a "real" smalltalk.
>
> I do work w/ Java & Scala on a project.
>
> First, JAR hell -> productivity killer
>
> Second, lots of infrastructure needed: IDE, Maven, Artifactory, ... ->
> another productivity killer
>
> Long story short: prototype the thing in Pharo and if good enough, run it
> there. I've done that for one project of late. Net resut: it takes 5x the 
> engineers
> and 3x the time to do the same in X than with Pharo.

A nice insight to a very interesting marketing technique ;)  Many know
the quote "Plan to throw one away."
So you don't need to convince them upfront to adopt a technology
unknown to them - but then they see it working and balance that
against dollars.  I guess if later Pharo encounters some
insurmountable barrier, they can still do the originally planned
re-inplementation in Java they originally planned - without too much
loss of face - but they get to do it from a well worn prototype.

cheers -ben

>
> If you want to do Java/Scala, by all means, go there. But why the hell is
> this going to be so important?
>
> Read
> https://www.quora.com/Of-the-emerging-systems-languages-Rust-D-Go-and-Nim-which-is-the-strongest-language-and-why
>
> for lots of pro/cons arguments on other languages (which do not give a shit
> about Java mean you).
>
>
> Phil
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:41 AM, horrido  wrote:
>>
>> At  Redmonk
>> 
>> , Scala is a top 20 language (position #14). It's a widely used language,
>> too, though not in the same league as Java nor Python. Even Clojure and
>> Groovy are in the top 20.
>>
>> Scala is much, much more popular and widely used than Smalltalk. If
>> Smalltalk could rise to Scala's level, it would be a huge win.
>>
>> The reason Amber and Redline and others have never achieved popularity is
>> primarily due to the lack of proper marketing. There are a gazillion
>> programming languages out there vying for developer attention. Smalltalk
>> is
>> completely lost in the noise. It's a great platform, but if it doesn't
>> have
>> developer /mindshare/, people won't try it. How do you think they'll find
>> their way to Smalltalk/Pharo? By divination?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866722.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[horrido]

I looked at JNIPort. It's **very** limited in its capabilities. "Improving"
it may be an insurmountable task.

Redline's approach was very attractive. Relatively clean and elegant, and
quite capable. It's a pity James Ladd couldn't get back to the project.



--
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http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866737.html
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Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Dimitris Chloupis]

Well if you want to work on redline and improve it , none will stop you,
its a free... software... afterall ;)

Simply complaining about things wont change much if anything.

Frankly If I ever wanted to use Java libraries for any reason , I would not
give up on Pharo just to use another pharo implementation which may or may
not work as I expect it. I suspect most Pharoers would agree with me as
well :)

I rather do this from the comfort of my gorgeous pharo enviroment :)

The latest commit in redline was back in October 2013

https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master

On the other hand JNIPort had some recent commits by Tudor

http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort/commits

and it now supports pharo 5.

Personally I dont care about making pharo more popular , I care about
making pharo more pharo. I am very interested into live coding and
visual coding. JVM is not invested on these areas, it has a very different
mentality so porting pharo there is not something that interests me.

Java with its huge popularly does not impress me as much pharo does in
terms of flexibility, functionality and directness.

I think that is why its difficult to bring pharo to diffirent platforms,
the mentality of pharo and mentality of smalltalk is so specific that does
not fit easily into other platforms.

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 7:17 PM horrido  wrote:

> I looked at JNIPort. It's **very** limited in its capabilities. "Improving"
> it may be an insurmountable task.
>
> Redline's approach was very attractive. Relatively clean and elegant, and
> quite capable. It's a pity James Ladd couldn't get back to the project.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866737.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Johan Fabry]

> On Dec 12, 2015, at 18:45, horrido  wrote:
> 
> Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. 
> 
> This mentality says that "if you build it, they will come." Keep improving
> the platform and eventually people will find it. **Or not.** You don't
> really care. (As an aside, **how** will they find it???)

You are ignoring the fact that Pharo is being taught in multiple universities 
and people like Stef and have made many ‘evangelization’ talks and ‘beginner’ 
courses in different places. There are screencasts being made and blog posts 
being written by various people and pushed on hacker news sites (all 
occasionally), plus other publicity work that escapes me at the moment.

It would be great to be able to do more, but our resources are extremely 
limited. Sadly, that’s just the way it is and instead of complaining about it 
we go and do what we do best. For some this is coding, for other this is 
documenting (had a look at books.pharo.org lately?), for others this is 
evangelizing. 

> This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The tool
> is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while
> they're welcome to join, *will not be missed if they go elsewhere*.

The goal of Pharo is not to conquer all programmers and programming tasks. This 
is not a religion, nor the next startup that will revolutionize the world. We 
cannot be everything to everybody, so yes the people that choose to go 
elsewhere will not be missed. I prefer to spend my limited resources to where I 
can have a positive impact.

> This mentality says that the *size* of the Pharo community is not especially
> important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as
> *you're* having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality is
> that **a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community that
> grows large enough to support it**.

Side is not everything. Actually the user community *is* large for the niche 
product that we have, but much much more important than that is that it is very 
*active*. I am involved in other communities that are huge but where *nothing* 
happens (e.g. ROS). We have a good set of base libraries that are actually 
quite well maintained and the community is very helpful when issues crop up 
(again, compared to e.g. ROS).

> In other words, until the user community reaches **critical mass**, a strong
> library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the breadth
> of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited.
> 
> Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming
> language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**.

Give us the money and the influence that e.g. Sun had for Java, or Microsoft 
for C# or .net, or Apple for Objective C and Swift. Sure we would not have the 
limits that you speak of. But we are not that. We have *no* resources, compared 
to what these giants have. So, again, with the limited resources we are doing 
all that we can, and *having an impact* e.g. http://pharo.org/success

On a personal note, your mail sounds accusing and it hurts when I read it, 
which is why I responded. We are doing what we can with the resources that we 
have. If you want a positive effect, an outreached hand will yield much better 
results than a pointing finger.

---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <---

Johan Fabry   -   http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry
PLEIAD and RyCh labs  -  Computer Science Department (DCC)  -  University of 
Chile

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Stephan Eggermont]

On 12-12-15 22:45, horrido wrote:

Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention.

...


Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming
language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**.


Oh please, can you stop this nonsense?

If you want to learn something about strategy, read the blog
I posted earlier about, and create some Wardley maps for us.
Your situational awareness is lacking.
Strategy means making choices.

Stephan

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[horrido]

Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. 

This mentality says that "if you build it, they will come." Keep improving
the platform and eventually people will find it. **Or not.** You don't
really care. (As an aside, **how** will they find it???)

This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The tool
is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while
they're welcome to join, *will not be missed if they go elsewhere*.

This mentality says that the *size* of the Pharo community is not especially
important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as
*you're* having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality is
that **a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community that
grows large enough to support it**.

In other words, until the user community reaches **critical mass**, a strong
library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the breadth
of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited.

Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming
language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**.



kilon.alios wrote
> I think that is why its difficult to bring pharo to diffirent platforms,
> the mentality of pharo and mentality of smalltalk is so specific that does
> not fit easily into other platforms.





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Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[horrido]

Yes, Java is a crummy language. Nevertheless, it has traction not only in the
Android space, but also in the enterprise space. Just look at IBM (where my
brother worked on Java enterprise shit). However, Java is not the most
important thing here. It's the Java library ecosystem. That's what everybody
is after. And that's why, strategically, it is vital to get Smalltalk/Pharo
to tap into that ecosystem.

Java may not be the only way to write for Android, but it is, by far, the
most popular.



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Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[EuanM]

It's especially important to strategically, it is vital to get Smalltalk/Pharo
to tap into the Java ecosystem if Java itself gets deprecated by Oracle.

Everyone who has a lot of enterprise Java code will need something
that works on the JVM and will easily interoperate with Java
libraries.

On 12 December 2015 at 00:03, horrido  wrote:
> Yes, Java is a crummy language. Nevertheless, it has traction not only in the
> Android space, but also in the enterprise space. Just look at IBM (where my
> brother worked on Java enterprise shit). However, Java is not the most
> important thing here. It's the Java library ecosystem. That's what everybody
> is after. And that's why, strategically, it is vital to get Smalltalk/Pharo
> to tap into that ecosystem.
>
> Java may not be the only way to write for Android, but it is, by far, the
> most popular.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866682.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

[Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Richard Eng]

According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and
Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will
most likely name Java *Programming Language of the Year* for 2015. (Both
languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.)

It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android
programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed
iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and
Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java
seems to be well-suited.

(I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe
there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A
clean, simple syntax is very, very important!)

I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot
be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline,
but I'm not sanguine about its future progress.

Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus
on putting Pharo on the JVM?

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

[Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero]

Maybe one option was to fork VMMaker to generate Pharo VM as java code 
(although maybe was better Scala than Java). 

Convert platform code to a JVM language (for example, Scala) and use scalac to 
compile PharoVM to JVM.

Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero 

-Mensaje original-
De: "Richard Eng" <horrido.hobb...@gmail.com>
Enviado: ‎11/‎12/‎2015 19:36
Para: "pharo-users@lists.pharo.org" <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>
Asunto: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and 
Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most 
likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both languages 
have been on an upward trajectory all year.)


It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android 
programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS 
in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then 
there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be 
well-suited.


(I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's 
an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple 
syntax is very, very important!)


I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be 
allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm 
not sanguine about its future progress.


Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on 
putting Pharo on the JVM?