Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Ben Coman]

I don't know anything about Seaside or Gettext packages, however I 
notice one thing (below)...


Peter Schorsch wrote:

Hi,

Just started with pharo and seaside. Now I want to write an example
seaside-application but with a multi lingual interface. So I installed
pharo3 and then seaside via configuration browser. 


But then I had to realize that the seaside-gettext package was not
installed; and also no gettext package. I found a gettext package in
the repository http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/PharoExtras/Gettext. 


I installed the package ConfigurationOfGettext, but the
configuraitonof-browser does not show it. 


The Pharo 3 Configuration Browser only looks at one repository...
http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Pharo/MetaRepoForPharo30
That repository is open for anyone to drop in a Configuration that works 
for Pharo 3.  There is a goal that some CI process will validate these 
Configurations, but its not there yet.


However what you tried to do makes A LOT of cognitive sense.  I'd never 
thought of it that way, but it might be good if Configuration Browser 
picked up Configurations manually loaded into the Image.


cheers -ben


So I installed the package
Gettext via monticello. 


Then I found the seaside-gettext packages in the repository
http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/Seaside/Seaside30Addons and installed via
monticello the packages Seaside-Gettext-Core and
Seaside-Gettext-Examples.

Then I open a webbrowser to watch the gettext example. But there I only
see:

fontsize

   * locale
   * locale
   * locale
   * locale
   * locale

That looks for me like gettext is not working with pharo3 and seaside
3.1.2

Any help is welcome - best a mini howto for gettext with pharo3 and
seaside 3.1.2

Thanks in advance


  

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[stepharo]

On 7/9/14 15:32, Peter Schorsch wrote:

Hi,

Just started with pharo and seaside.


Welcome!


Now I want to write an example
seaside-application but with a multi lingual interface. So I installed
pharo3 and then seaside via configuration browser.

But then I had to realize that the seaside-gettext package was not
installed; and also no gettext package. I found a gettext package in
the repository http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/PharoExtras/Gettext.

I installed the package ConfigurationOfGettext, but the
configuraitonof-browser does not show it.
The configuration browser only shows the configurations that are 
published in a given repository.

So I installed the package
Gettext via monticello.


I think that people will reply to you. I know that there was a conflict 
between one class in the getText and one in Pharo30.

Then I found the seaside-gettext packages in the repository
http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/Seaside/Seaside30Addons and installed via
monticello the packages Seaside-Gettext-Core and
Seaside-Gettext-Examples.

Then I open a webbrowser to watch the gettext example. But there I only
see:

fontsize

* locale
* locale
* locale
* locale
* locale

That looks for me like gettext is not working with pharo3 and seaside
3.1.2

Any help is welcome - best a mini howto for gettext with pharo3 and
seaside 3.1.2

Thanks in advance

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Marcus Denker]

On 07 Sep 2014, at 20:32, stepharo  wrote:

> 
> On 7/9/14 15:32, Peter Schorsch wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Just started with pharo and seaside.
> 
> Welcome!
> 
>> Now I want to write an example
>> seaside-application but with a multi lingual interface. So I installed
>> pharo3 and then seaside via configuration browser.
>> 
>> But then I had to realize that the seaside-gettext package was not
>> installed; and also no gettext package. I found a gettext package in
>> the repository http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/PharoExtras/Gettext.
>> 
>> I installed the package ConfigurationOfGettext, but the
>> configuraitonof-browser does not show it.
> The configuration browser only shows the configurations that are published in 
> a given repository.
>> So I installed the package
>> Gettext via monticello.
> 
> I think that people will reply to you. I know that there was a conflict 
> between one class in the getText and one in Pharo30.


There is an issue here:


https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/13655/System-Localization-and-Gettext-have-classes-with-identical-names


Marcus

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Hilaire]

What is the purpose of the seaside-gettext package ?
Is it a relic or is it useful? Gettext is orthogonal to Seaside.

Hilaire

Le 07/09/2014 15:32, Peter Schorsch a écrit :

But then I had to realize that the seaside-gettext package was not
installed; and also no gettext package. I found a gettext package in
the repositoryhttp://smalltalkhub.com/mc/PharoExtras/Gettext.

I installed the package ConfigurationOfGettext, but the
configuraitonof-browser does not show it. So I installed the package
Gettext via monticello.



--
Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu
iStoa - http://istao.drgeo.eu

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Alain Busser]

Hi,

I don't know if it is related but I have problems importing french files
inside Pharo 3: Anytime when there is an accentuated character there is an
error, and the file is not imported. Even if the character is a quote
inside double quotes (like in "it don't work") there is an error message.
Right now I can't import MathsOntologie (
http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/MathsOntologie/MathsOntologie-AlainBusser.68.mcz)
into Pharo 3 and I have to go on developing it in Pharo 1.4...

Alain

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Hilaire  wrote:

> What is the purpose of the seaside-gettext package ?
> Is it a relic or is it useful? Gettext is orthogonal to Seaside.
>
> Hilaire
>
> Le 07/09/2014 15:32, Peter Schorsch a écrit :
>
>> But then I had to realize that the seaside-gettext package was not
>> installed; and also no gettext package. I found a gettext package in
>> the repositoryhttp://smalltalkhub.com/mc/PharoExtras/Gettext.
>>
>> I installed the package ConfigurationOfGettext, but the
>> configuraitonof-browser does not show it. So I installed the package
>> Gettext via monticello.
>>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu
> iStoa - http://istao.drgeo.eu
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Usman Bhatti]

Hi Peter,

For my application needs (English -> French), I normally use the gettext
package from STHub  and it works without any problems for me.
http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~PharoExtras/Gettext

GetText so far not including in the Configuration Browser but we should
include it. There is also a configurationOf for Gettext and some
explanation in Pharo book how to use the package.
http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com/book/LanguageAndLibraries/Localisation/PreparingImage/

I dont know the seaside version and I have never tested it.

usman


On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Peter Schorsch  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Just started with pharo and seaside. Now I want to write an example
> seaside-application but with a multi lingual interface. So I installed
> pharo3 and then seaside via configuration browser.
>
> But then I had to realize that the seaside-gettext package was not
> installed; and also no gettext package. I found a gettext package in
> the repository http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/PharoExtras/Gettext.
>
> I installed the package ConfigurationOfGettext, but the
> configuraitonof-browser does not show it. So I installed the package
> Gettext via monticello.
>
> Then I found the seaside-gettext packages in the repository
> http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/Seaside/Seaside30Addons and installed via
> monticello the packages Seaside-Gettext-Core and
> Seaside-Gettext-Examples.
>
> Then I open a webbrowser to watch the gettext example. But there I only
> see:
>
> fontsize
>
>* locale
>* locale
>* locale
>* locale
>* locale
>
> That looks for me like gettext is not working with pharo3 and seaside
> 3.1.2
>
> Any help is welcome - best a mini howto for gettext with pharo3 and
> seaside 3.1.2
>
> Thanks in advance
>
>

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Stephan Eggermont]

Depending on your exact needs, you might be better of with the QCMagritte
based multi-language support.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTut44Xs3_U

To try download a QCMagritte image from 
https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/QCMagritte/

start a seaside adapter
ZnZincServerAdaptor startOn: 8081.

browse to the qcmagritte application.
http://localhost:8081/qcmagritte

tutorial is at 
http://localhost:8081/

Stephan

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Marcus Denker]

I will have a look and check… (with the first goal to add an issue tracker 
entry for it)
On 08 Sep 2014, at 20:01, Hilaire  wrote:

> Marcus,
> 
> Alain's MathOntologie package provide Classes and Messages with French 
> accent, to ease the understanding of programming to high school students.
> I am suspecting the new compiler or something related does not accepted 
> accented caracters or something different to ASCII.
> 
> Alain, in your package I noted the sources is not utf-8 but iso-8859-15 (8 
> bits), I converted it to utf-8 and tried to get it loaded in Pharo3, but 
> still accent characters caused problem, see screenshot.
> 
> Enclosed source file utf-8 converted and improper imported source code with 
> accented variable name.
> 
> Hilaire
> 
> Le 08/09/2014 12:18, Alain Busser a écrit :
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I don't know if it is related but I have problems importing french files
>> inside Pharo 3: Anytime when there is an accentuated character there is
>> an error, and the file is not imported. Even if the character is a quote
>> inside double quotes (like in "it don't work") there is an error
>> message. Right now I can't import MathsOntologie
>> (http://ss3.gemstone.com/ss/MathsOntologie/MathsOntologie-AlainBusser.68.mcz)
>> into Pharo 3 and I have to go on developing it in Pharo 1.4...
>> 
>> Alain
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu
> iStoa - http://istao.drgeo.eu
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Hilaire]

Absolutely right. I open a ticket for Alain 
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/13980/Math-Ontologie-on-Pharo-3-0.


Alain I suggest you get your hand in the Pharo bug tracker 
(http://bugs.pharo.org) and create yourself an account[1] there to 
comment and to report additional problem you may meet.



[1] https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?W41



Le 09/09/2014 09:56, Marcus Denker a écrit :

I will have a look and check… (with the first goal to add an issue tracker 
entry for it)
On 08 Sep 2014, at 20:01, Hilaire  wrote:



--
Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu
iStoa - http://istao.drgeo.eu

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Hilaire]

Absolutely right. I open a ticket for Alain 
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/13980/Math-Ontologie-on-Pharo-3-0.


Alain I suggest you get your hand in the Pharo bug tracker 
(http://bugs.pharo.org) and create yourself an account[1] there to 
comment and to report additional problem you may meet.



[1] https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?W41



Le 09/09/2014 09:56, Marcus Denker a écrit :

I will have a look and check… (with the first goal to add an issue tracker 
entry for it)
On 08 Sep 2014, at 20:01, Hilaire  wrote:



--
Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu
iStoa - http://istao.drgeo.eu

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Johan Brichau]

Hi,

The Seaside-Gettext package is in the Seaside repository 
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Seaside/Seaside30Addons
The package in the PharoExtras repository is a relic.

The ConfigurationOfSeaside3 correctly references the Seaside-Gettext package 
and it’s absolutely functional (using this in production systems).

What is a bit silly is that the ConfigurationOfSeaside3 relies on people 
chosing the appropriate groups to load and the Pharo configuration browser 
always loads the default transparantly.
I will probably update that for Seaside 3.2.0, so that the default loads 
everything for newcomers, but for the current version some load configurations 
might rely on it and that’s the way it is.

Johan

On 08 Sep 2014, at 11:16, Hilaire  wrote:

> What is the purpose of the seaside-gettext package ?
> Is it a relic or is it useful? Gettext is orthogonal to Seaside.
> 
> Hilaire
> 
> Le 07/09/2014 15:32, Peter Schorsch a écrit :
>> But then I had to realize that the seaside-gettext package was not
>> installed; and also no gettext package. I found a gettext package in
>> the repositoryhttp://smalltalkhub.com/mc/PharoExtras/Gettext.
>> 
>> I installed the package ConfigurationOfGettext, but the
>> configuraitonof-browser does not show it. So I installed the package
>> Gettext via monticello.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu
> iStoa - http://istao.drgeo.eu
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[stepharo]

Hi johan usman and other


I would like to get a clearer picture.



https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/13655/System-Localization-and-Gettext-have-classes-with-identical-names
   
We could change the name of in the PharoExtras package gettext so that 
we do not have conflicts
with the in-image mechanisms.

I'm skeptical about all these translated messages everywhere.

What people do for the applications?

Then what is the seaside-Getext? Is is a superset of 
pharoExtras-gettext?
For application not doing web, does it make sense to use it?
Is it packaged separately?

Stef

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[stepharo]

http://pharo.gemtalksystems.com/book/LanguageAndLibraries/Localisation/PreparingImage/



Thanks I turned it into a chapter

Stef

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Johan Brichau]

On 13 Sep 2014, at 10:09, stepharo  wrote:

>   Then what is the seaside-Getext? Is is a superset of 
> pharoExtras-gettext?

https://code.google.com/p/seaside/wiki/Gettext

In short: it’s a Seaside extension to internationalise your web app.

>   For application not doing web, does it make sense to use it?

No, but I don’t see how you guys complain about that. The package is in the 
Seaside repo and in the ConfigurationOfSeaside3.
Can you explain the issue?

>   Is it packaged separately?

yes.

Johan

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Hilaire]

Le 13/09/2014 09:57, Johan Brichau a écrit :

Hi,

The Seaside-Gettext package is in the Seaside repository
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Seaside/Seaside30Addons

The package in the PharoExtras repository is a relic.



You mean the Seaside-Gettext-Slime right?

Hilaire


--
Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu
iStoa - http://istao.drgeo.eu

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Hilaire]

Hello,

I guess the gettext package on the seaside repo depends on the gettext 
package at PharoExtra and it adds some glue code for Seaside use. Is it 
correct?



Le 13/09/2014 12:43, Johan Brichau a écrit :


On 13 Sep 2014, at 10:09, stepharo
mailto:steph...@free.fr>> wrote:


Then what is the seaside-Getext? Is is a superset of pharoExtras-gettext?


https://code.google.com/p/seaside/wiki/Gettext

In short: it’s a Seaside extension to internationalise your web app.


For application not doing web, does it make sense to use it?


No, but I don’t see how you guys complain about that. The package is in
the Seaside repo and in the ConfigurationOfSeaside3.
Can you explain the issue?


Is it packaged separately?


yes.

Johan



--
Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu
iStoa - http://istao.drgeo.eu

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[stepharo]

Thanks Johan
I would like to know we could move all the system-Localization classes 
to the getText package.
Or another package outside the core because we basically shortcut 
completely its use.


I will look a bit around.
On 13 Sep 2014, at 10:09, stepharo > wrote:



Then what is the seaside-Getext? Is is a superset of pharoExtras-gettext?


https://code.google.com/p/seaside/wiki/Gettext

could we edit the wiki to say to load getText from PharoExtras?
So I have the impression that we could move System-Localization to 
Gettext without impacting

- current users
- pharo core
- current seasiders.

In short: it’s a Seaside extension to internationalise your web app.


For application not doing web, does it make sense to use it?


No, but I don’t see how you guys complain about that. The package is 
in the Seaside repo and in the ConfigurationOfSeaside3.

Can you explain the issue?

there are two issues:
- system-Localization is not used in the image because
NaturalLanguageTranslator>>translate: aString
^ aString
- when people load getText, the package get dirty because a new 
class definition is installed.

Is it packaged separately?


yes.

Johan

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[stepharo]

On 13/9/14 15:57, Hilaire wrote:

Hello,

I guess the gettext package on the seaside repo depends on the gettext 
package at PharoExtra and it adds some glue code for Seaside use. Is 
it correct?


I did not check but I think so



Le 13/09/2014 12:43, Johan Brichau a écrit :


On 13 Sep 2014, at 10:09, stepharo
mailto:steph...@free.fr>> wrote:

Then what is the seaside-Getext? Is is a superset of 
pharoExtras-gettext?


https://code.google.com/p/seaside/wiki/Gettext

In short: it’s a Seaside extension to internationalise your web app.


For application not doing web, does it make sense to use it?


No, but I don’t see how you guys complain about that. The package is in
the Seaside repo and in the ConfigurationOfSeaside3.
Can you explain the issue?


Is it packaged separately?


yes.

Johan

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[stepharo]

So I'm checking and when we load Gettext,
System-Localization only contains
ISOLanguageDefinition
Locale

Locale is used by LanguageEnvironment, LocalID, TimeZone, Unicode

When we will clean leadingChar some of these will go away.

So not all the package System-Localisation can be moved out the image to 
got in a newer version of getText

Stef

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Marcus Denker]

On 13 Sep 2014, at 20:51, stepharo  wrote:

> So I'm checking and when we load Gettext,
> System-Localization only contains
>ISOLanguageDefinition
>Locale
> 
> Locale is used by LanguageEnvironment, LocalID, TimeZone, Unicode
> 
> When we will clean leadingChar some of these will go away.
> 
> So not all the package System-Localisation can be moved out the image to got 
> in a newer version of getText
> 


Localization is very basic functionality that should be provided by the 
platform itself.
We are in the situation that we are in only because people see Pharo as 
something “to build on top”.

This way everyone does their own I18N stuff, while the right thing would be to 
have *one* that is good and
part or Pharo itself.

Just think about it: Pharo itself should have translated menus. So we need 
*something* in the system anyway.
Why then not make it good and make it the one that everyone is using?

Marcus 

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Sven Van Caekenberghe]

On 14 Sep 2014, at 12:59, Marcus Denker  wrote:

> 
> On 13 Sep 2014, at 20:51, stepharo  wrote:
> 
>> So I'm checking and when we load Gettext,
>> System-Localization only contains
>>   ISOLanguageDefinition
>>   Locale
>> 
>> Locale is used by LanguageEnvironment, LocalID, TimeZone, Unicode
>> 
>> When we will clean leadingChar some of these will go away.
>> 
>> So not all the package System-Localisation can be moved out the image to got 
>> in a newer version of getText
>> 
> 
> 
> Localization is very basic functionality that should be provided by the 
> platform itself.
> We are in the situation that we are in only because people see Pharo as 
> something “to build on top”.
> 
> This way everyone does their own I18N stuff, while the right thing would be 
> to have *one* that is good and
> part or Pharo itself.
> 
> Just think about it: Pharo itself should have translated menus. So we need 
> *something* in the system anyway.
> Why then not make it good and make it the one that everyone is using?
> 
>   Marcus

+1

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Johan Brichau]

On 13 Sep 2014, at 19:54, stepharo  wrote:

> 
> On 13/9/14 15:57, Hilaire wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> I guess the gettext package on the seaside repo depends on the gettext 
>> package at PharoExtra and it adds some glue code for Seaside use. Is it 
>> correct?
> 
> I did not check but I think so

Yes, Seaside-Gettext an extension of Gettext for Seaside apps.

Johan

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Peter Schorsch]

> Localization is very basic functionality that should be provided by
> the platform itself. We are in the situation that we are in only
> because people see Pharo as something “to build on top”.
> 
> This way everyone does their own I18N stuff, while the right thing
> would be to have *one* that is good and part or Pharo itself.
> 
> Just think about it: Pharo itself should have translated menus. So we
> need *something* in the system anyway. Why then not make it good and
> make it the one that everyone is using?

As a beginner with pharo I TOTALLY agree with that statement. E.g. so
far I understood there are 3 different localization existing:

* System internal localization 
  - never seen before, never read about before
* Gettext
  - does not work
* QCMagritte
  - shall work, did not managed it by myself. Only uses csv
table if I understood correctly.

Here is my suggestion (keep in mind that I did not fully understood
QCMagritte atm). My wish is a localization that:

* supports the gettext format for in and output
* has fallback options if a phrase is not translated
* pharo internal interface maybe a Dictionary
* support of different number formats (e.g. date etc.)
* does NOT depend on the env locales - only the IDE of pharo

Honestly, I am surprised that pharo does not work fully with utf8
(see MathOntology discussion) and has no well documentated and working
localization.

If I understood something wrong please correct me - I still want to
learn pharo and seaside :)

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Johan Brichau]

Peter,

Gettext works. See DrGeo, for example.
Also, the Seaside-Gettext extension works just fine.

If I understand correctly, the Pharo IDE (and rest of the system) has not been 
working with ant localization implementation.

Johan

On 14 Sep 2014, at 16:18, Peter Schorsch  wrote:

>> Localization is very basic functionality that should be provided by
>> the platform itself. We are in the situation that we are in only
>> because people see Pharo as something “to build on top”.
>> 
>> This way everyone does their own I18N stuff, while the right thing
>> would be to have *one* that is good and part or Pharo itself.
>> 
>> Just think about it: Pharo itself should have translated menus. So we
>> need *something* in the system anyway. Why then not make it good and
>> make it the one that everyone is using?
> 
> As a beginner with pharo I TOTALLY agree with that statement. E.g. so
> far I understood there are 3 different localization existing:
> 
>   * System internal localization 
> - never seen before, never read about before
>   * Gettext
> - does not work
>   * QCMagritte
> - shall work, did not managed it by myself. Only uses csv
>   table if I understood correctly.
> 
> Here is my suggestion (keep in mind that I did not fully understood
> QCMagritte atm). My wish is a localization that:
> 
>   * supports the gettext format for in and output
>   * has fallback options if a phrase is not translated
>   * pharo internal interface maybe a Dictionary
>   * support of different number formats (e.g. date etc.)
>   * does NOT depend on the env locales - only the IDE of pharo
> 
> Honestly, I am surprised that pharo does not work fully with utf8
> (see MathOntology discussion) and has no well documentated and working
> localization.
> 
> If I understood something wrong please correct me - I still want to
> learn pharo and seaside :)
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Johan Brichau]

On 14 Sep 2014, at 12:59, Marcus Denker  wrote:

> Just think about it: Pharo itself should have translated menus. So we need 
> *something* in the system anyway.
> Why then not make it good and make it the one that everyone is using?

Yes, and actually, Gettext is just about the support for the Gettext format [1].
So, you can see it as an extension of the existing Localization system that is 
already in the image and it’s probably a good idea to internalize it completely.

The LocaleID and NaturalLanguageTranslator classes in the package are the same 
(and more) as those already in the image. So, why not just internalize it?
I think there are a couple of people who are willing to maintain it: Hilaire, 
Usman and myself (who are the current maintainers of the package). Maybe this 
discussion should move to pharo-dev ?

There’s not so much to the Gettext package actually. It just deserves a bit of 
a cleaning.
The hard part is: make your applications use the localization and create 
translation files…

Johan

[1] http://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Hilaire]

Le 14/09/2014 16:49, Johan Brichau a écrit :

Yes, and actually, Gettext is just about the support for the Gettext format [1].
So, you can see it as an extension of the existing Localization system that is 
already in the image and it’s probably a good idea to internalize it completely.

The LocaleID and NaturalLanguageTranslator classes in the package are the same 
(and more) as those already in the image. So, why not just internalize it?


Make sense


I think there are a couple of people who are willing to maintain it: Hilaire, 
Usman and myself (who are the current maintainers of the package). Maybe this 
discussion should move to pharo-dev ?

There’s not so much to the Gettext package actually. It just deserves a bit of 
a cleaning.
The hard part is: make your applications use the localization and create 
translation files…



But please keep it external, with just the needed existing #translated 
hook and necessary support class.


Hilaire


--
Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu
iStoa - http://istao.drgeo.eu

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[stepharo]

So I'm checking and when we load Gettext,
System-Localization only contains
ISOLanguageDefinition
Locale

Locale is used by LanguageEnvironment, LocalID, TimeZone, Unicode

When we will clean leadingChar some of these will go away.

So not all the package System-Localisation can be moved out the image to got in 
a newer version of getText


Localization is very basic functionality that should be provided by the 
platform itself.

To me it was not that obvious.

We are in the situation that we are in only because people see Pharo as 
something “to build on top”.

This way everyone does their own I18N stuff, while the right thing would be to 
have *one* that is good and
part or Pharo itself.

Frankly do you want to have menu in german?
I would really like to avoid to have String poluted with translation. 
Translation of external string have not really something to

do in a language core.


Just think about it: Pharo itself should have translated menus.

Really.
Who would be using them **AND** maintain their translation.

So we need *something* in the system anyway.
Why then not make it good and make it the one that everyone is using?


May be but not by forcing all the internationalization code to be in the 
bootstrap because it is not its place.
I would like to get the leadingChar cleaned and use Unicode and we could 
get rid of a lot of strange code.

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[stepharo]

On 14/9/14 16:18, Peter Schorsch wrote:

Localization is very basic functionality that should be provided by
the platform itself. We are in the situation that we are in only
because people see Pharo as something “to build on top”.

This way everyone does their own I18N stuff, while the right thing
would be to have *one* that is good and part or Pharo itself.

Just think about it: Pharo itself should have translated menus. So we
need *something* in the system anyway. Why then not make it good and
make it the one that everyone is using?

As a beginner with pharo I TOTALLY agree with that statement. E.g. so
far I understood there are 3 different localization existing:

* System internal localization
  - never seen before, never read about before
* Gettext
  - does not work
* QCMagritte
  - shall work, did not managed it by myself. Only uses csv
table if I understood correctly.

Here is my suggestion (keep in mind that I did not fully understood
QCMagritte atm). My wish is a localization that:

* supports the gettext format for in and output
* has fallback options if a phrase is not translated
* pharo internal interface maybe a Dictionary
* support of different number formats (e.g. date etc.
* does NOT depend on the env locales - only the IDE of pharo

Why that?



Honestly, I am surprised that pharo does not work fully with utf8
(see MathOntology discussion) and has no well documentated and working
localization.

Evolution is more difficult than writing a new language in 2014!



If I understood something wrong please correct me - I still want to
learn pharo and seaside :)

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[stepharo]

On 14/9/14 16:39, Johan Brichau wrote:

Peter,

Gettext works. See DrGeo, for example.
Also, the Seaside-Gettext extension works just fine.

If I understand correctly, the Pharo IDE (and rest of the system) has not been 
working with ant localization implementation.


the fallback was simply to not translate the strings.
You see we cannot try to reduce the use of strings and add translations 
to all the possible languages in the image.
I personally do not need Pharo menu in French and do not count on me to 
translate them. I have been this road once

and never again.

Stef



Johan

On 14 Sep 2014, at 16:18, Peter Schorsch  wrote:


Localization is very basic functionality that should be provided by
the platform itself. We are in the situation that we are in only
because people see Pharo as something “to build on top”.

This way everyone does their own I18N stuff, while the right thing
would be to have *one* that is good and part or Pharo itself.

Just think about it: Pharo itself should have translated menus. So we
need *something* in the system anyway. Why then not make it good and
make it the one that everyone is using?

As a beginner with pharo I TOTALLY agree with that statement. E.g. so
far I understood there are 3 different localization existing:

* System internal localization
  - never seen before, never read about before
* Gettext
  - does not work
* QCMagritte
  - shall work, did not managed it by myself. Only uses csv
table if I understood correctly.

Here is my suggestion (keep in mind that I did not fully understood
QCMagritte atm). My wish is a localization that:

* supports the gettext format for in and output
* has fallback options if a phrase is not translated
* pharo internal interface maybe a Dictionary
* support of different number formats (e.g. date etc.)
* does NOT depend on the env locales - only the IDE of pharo

Honestly, I am surprised that pharo does not work fully with utf8
(see MathOntology discussion) and has no well documentated and working
localization.

If I understood something wrong please correct me - I still want to
learn pharo and seaside :)

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[stepharo]

Marcus I think that we should sync because personally I do not want to 
giant kernel. I want a bootstrap and modular packages.
 I think that making all the packages internal to the image is a recipe 
to get a monolithic system.

I do not see why loading a package would hurt.

Stef


On 14/9/14 12:59, Marcus Denker wrote:

On 13 Sep 2014, at 20:51, stepharo  wrote:


So I'm checking and when we load Gettext,
System-Localization only contains
ISOLanguageDefinition
Locale

Locale is used by LanguageEnvironment, LocalID, TimeZone, Unicode

When we will clean leadingChar some of these will go away.

So not all the package System-Localisation can be moved out the image to got in 
a newer version of getText



Localization is very basic functionality that should be provided by the 
platform itself.
We are in the situation that we are in only because people see Pharo as 
something “to build on top”.

This way everyone does their own I18N stuff, while the right thing would be to 
have *one* that is good and
part or Pharo itself.

Just think about it: Pharo itself should have translated menus. So we need 
*something* in the system anyway.
Why then not make it good and make it the one that everyone is using?

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Stephan Eggermont]

QCMagritte provides a visitor that walks your magritte descriptions and knows 
properties that might need translation. With those (and any extra terms you add 
directly) it builds up a dictionary of terms to translate. It provides a web UI 
where the translations can be entered and supports loading from and saving to 
utf8 csv. When generating the seaside components, it supports chaining multiple 
visitors to separate concerns (translation, bootstrap layout, access control).
In a system with users, it allows a user to set her preferred language to be 
used in the application. Unavailable translations just show the translation key.

Stephan

Re: [Pharo-users] Gettext with pharo 3 and seaside 3.1.2

[Marcus Denker]

On 14 Sep 2014, at 19:16, stepharo  wrote:

> Marcus I think that we should sync because personally I do not want to giant 
> kernel. I want a bootstrap and modular packages.
> I think that making all the packages internal to the image is a recipe to get 
> a monolithic system.
> I do not see why loading a package would hurt.
> 
Yes, let’s discuss it sometimes this week.


> Stef
> 
> 
> On 14/9/14 12:59, Marcus Denker wrote:
>> On 13 Sep 2014, at 20:51, stepharo  wrote:
>> 
>>> So I'm checking and when we load Gettext,
>>> System-Localization only contains
>>>ISOLanguageDefinition
>>>Locale
>>> 
>>> Locale is used by LanguageEnvironment, LocalID, TimeZone, Unicode
>>> 
>>> When we will clean leadingChar some of these will go away.
>>> 
>>> So not all the package System-Localisation can be moved out the image to 
>>> got in a newer version of getText
>>> 
>> 
>> Localization is very basic functionality that should be provided by the 
>> platform itself.
>> We are in the situation that we are in only because people see Pharo as 
>> something “to build on top”.
>> 
>> This way everyone does their own I18N stuff, while the right thing would be 
>> to have *one* that is good and
>> part or Pharo itself.
>> 
>> Just think about it: Pharo itself should have translated menus. So we need 
>> *something* in the system anyway.
>> Why then not make it good and make it the one that everyone is using?
>> 
>>  Marcus
>> 
> 
>