[pinhole-discussion] RE:A NEW DEBATE
Wotcher all, I haven't commented for a while but here's my contribution to "the new debate" and thanks for precipitating it Alexis ;-) I think that the reason a lot of the debate on this list concerns the how and not the what is because of the glorious variety of ways in which a lensless image can be captured. Although lens cameras can be very beautiful they are generally manufactured items (with a few notable exceptions) and thus the creativity involved in taking a picture commences at a different point than in pinhole/lensless photography. The exquisite simplicity of a lensless camera loosens an artist's creativity at an earlier stage in the process. Another interesting way of looking at it is that using lensless technique augments the building of the camera as a variable in the photographic process. This is interesting particularly in relation to the old science/art debate as here an artist is deliberately enhancing the exact thing that a scientist attempts to control for: a variable. Thus, because of the almost limitless ways in which a pinhole camera can be crafted precisely to enhance this variable we tend to spend a lot of time discussing exactly that. Personally, I'm very interested in both subject and idea AND the technical innovations used to get there. However, I am a scientist and so my knowledge base is more on the technical side but the reason I subscribe to this great list is precisely because in order to improve my photo technique I thirst to be informed by the more art based members through seeing and understanding their work..I am never disappointed. Tom >I would like to open up a debate. > >feel it is time we discussed critically what we are doing. Not a >criticism of individual works or persons but a debate on our aims, purposes >and motivation.We hardly ever talk about why and what we are doing, >almost always how. > >What is more important, style or content? > >Are you driven by developing the subject and idea or by the means of >achieving this through technical innovations? > >Some of us are very interested in technique and some in content, obviously >the two should work together one informing the other, but what do you think? > >Alexis >
Re: [pinhole-discussion] A NEW DEBATE
In a message dated 1/13/02 4:12:12 PM Central Standard Time, hol...@duke.usask.ca writes: << I use pinhole camera because it "reinterprets" reality. I usually use cameras that introduce at least some distortion and some cameras that distort a great deal. I am struck by the way that the camera "sees" the world in a substantially different manner than I do. The image is a real image, the way the camera saw it, not a second generation darkroom based or computer based alteration of an image. Its just not the way I see the same situation. >> I would agree with Gordons statement here in part. but then i ask my self , what is the reality, ? is it my perception ?Is the "reality" really just a series of atoms just floating around to "give the perception of reality," ie a series of dots , be it silver, inkjet, or some other process used to provide us with a print and/or representation of that object known as the "artifact ". And what of the subject matter that a pinhole camera is pointed at and film exposed ? Isnt that barn or gravestone, or what ever just a mass of atoms once again, and while there is a "translation ' of that barn being a mass of atoms, the sheet of film a mass of atoms, the camera itself a mass of atoms, the paper being another mass and so on, until we reach the "final translation " of artifact,or representation of that barn , etc.. and finally arrive at some sort of aesthetic . As for me, to paraphrase and adopt/steal something I once heard or read, I simply photograph to see what something 3 dimensional looks like translated into 2 dimensional , and am driven by that curiousity .The tools (cameras ) are just that, tools no more, no less , the same holds true for me, in terms of procedures /processes to express/ arrive at the "final translation " or artifact .which I deem aesthetically pleasing to my eye,or not ..
[pinhole-discussion] a new debate
Science or art? Science ensures that is titanium yellow is always titanium yellow. Art makes yellow things. Style or content? As has already been noted, they mate. What is pinhole all about? About involving the operator more in the process, about technical minimalism, about points of view unattainable with purchased lens cameras, about a more real and immediate relationship with light.
Re: [pinhole-discussion] A NEW DEBATE
Hi: I use pinhole camera because it "reinterprets" reality. I usually use cameras that introduce at least some distortion and some cameras that distort a great deal. I am struck by the way that the camera "sees" the world in a substantially different manner than I do. The image is a real image, the way the camera saw it, not a second generation darkroom based or computer based alteration of an image. Its just not the way I see the same situation. Perhaps its my belief that the world is often a collection of contradictions, or that even the smallest thing can reveal mysterious or nearly magical qualities. There is also the magic of each picture being a surprise. Each camera reinterprets things in a different way. A scene taken with one camera will look substantially different from another camera. What I consider taking a picture of depends on the camera I'm using. There are also situations that I would not have considered worth taking a picture, until I use a particular camera and realize it would reinterpret that situation in some sort of interesting manner. As I have more cameras available the number of "pictures" out there waiting to be taken increases substantially. Pinhole cameras let me look upon the world with many different perspectives. Gord > >> I would like to open up a debate. > >> > >> I feel it is time we discussed critically what we are doing. Not a > >> critiscism of individual works or persons but a debate on our aims, > > purposes > >> and motivation.We hardly ever talk about why and what we are doing, > >> almost always how. > >> > >> What is more important, style or content? > >> > >> Are you driven by developing the subject and idea or by the means of > >> achieving this through technical innovations? > >> > >> Some of us are very interested in technique and some in content, obviously > >> the two should work together one informing the other, but what do you > > think? > >> > >> Alexis > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> Pinhole-Discussion mailing list > >> Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? > >> unsubscribe or change your account at > >> http://www.???/discussion/ > >> > > > > > > ___ > > Pinhole-Discussion mailing list > > Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? > > unsubscribe or change your account at > > http://www.???/discussion/ > > > ___ > Pinhole-Discussion mailing list > Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? > unsubscribe or change your account at > http://www.???/discussion/ > - Gordon J. Holtslander Dept. of Biology hol...@duke.usask.ca112 Science Place http://duke.usask.ca/~holtsgUniversity of Saskatchewan Tel (306) 966-4433 Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Fax (306) 966-4461 Canada S7N 5E2 -
[pinhole-discussion] Style v. Content discussion
I believe the two are linked. Content is the image's reality, similar to the Greek idea of archetype. Style is the way we interpret a given reality. For example, ask 10 different photographers to photo the same table and there will be 10 different images. The table remains the same but the interpretations differ by huge degrees. Extending this premise, if the content is altered, so will the style be altered and vice versa. Our photos are slices of reality. We can never show the whole, only what we see and interpret. In the end, all we can hope is people take away an emotion, a lesson, a sense of awe or transcendence. The journey from what our eyes see to what the camera records, be it pinhole or SLR, is personal. Our personal content, our ersonal style, our choice.
Re: [pinhole-discussion] A NEW DEBATE
The debate is always on; what are you thoughts? My background is that of a painter but I am also a science graduate so I suppose I fall between two camps. The how and the why. I think there are great similarities between science and art; one important difference though is that the scientist has to prove his or her ideas to peers according to a prescibed methodology of repeatability, causality and proof whereas the artist's idea and resulting photograph, painting or whatever, is proven by whether it fulfills the criteria set by the artist himself whatever they may be. what is pinhole about, what does it set out to do and how can it develop? Alexis on 13/1/02 7:10 pm, Bill Erickson at erick...@hickorytech.net wrote: > Let me know when the debate starts. I have some thoughts. > - Original Message - > From: "ragowaring" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 6:46 AM > Subject: Re: [pinhole-discussion] A NEW DEBATE > > >> I would like to open up a debate. >> >> I feel it is time we discussed critically what we are doing. Not a >> critiscism of individual works or persons but a debate on our aims, > purposes >> and motivation.We hardly ever talk about why and what we are doing, >> almost always how. >> >> What is more important, style or content? >> >> Are you driven by developing the subject and idea or by the means of >> achieving this through technical innovations? >> >> Some of us are very interested in technique and some in content, obviously >> the two should work together one informing the other, but what do you > think? >> >> Alexis >> >> >> ___ >> Pinhole-Discussion mailing list >> Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? >> unsubscribe or change your account at >> http://www.???/discussion/ >> > > > ___ > Pinhole-Discussion mailing list > Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? > unsubscribe or change your account at > http://www.???/discussion/
Re: [pinhole-discussion] A NEW DEBATE
The debate is always on; what are you thoughts? My background is that of a painter but I am also a science graduate so I suppose I fall between two camps. The how and the why. I think there are great similarities between science and art; one important difference though is that the scientist has to prove his or her ideas to peers according to a prescibed methodology of repeatability, causality and proof whereas the artist's idea and resulting photograph, painting or whatever, is proven by whether it fulfills the criteria set by the artist himself whatever they may be. what is pinhole about, what does it set out to do and how can it develop? on 13/1/02 7:10 pm, Bill Erickson at erick...@hickorytech.net wrote: > Let me know when the debate starts. I have some thoughts. > - Original Message - > From: "ragowaring" > To: > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 6:46 AM > Subject: Re: [pinhole-discussion] A NEW DEBATE > > >> I would like to open up a debate. >> >> I feel it is time we discussed critically what we are doing. Not a >> critiscism of individual works or persons but a debate on our aims, > purposes >> and motivation.We hardly ever talk about why and what we are doing, >> almost always how. >> >> What is more important, style or content? >> >> Are you driven by developing the subject and idea or by the means of >> achieving this through technical innovations? >> >> Some of us are very interested in technique and some in content, obviously >> the two should work together one informing the other, but what do you > think? >> >> Alexis >> >> >> ___ >> Pinhole-Discussion mailing list >> Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? >> unsubscribe or change your account at >> http://www.???/discussion/ >> > > > ___ > Pinhole-Discussion mailing list > Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? > unsubscribe or change your account at > http://www.???/discussion/
Re: [pinhole-discussion] Polaroid Pinhole Kits
I am in Japan where they released Polaroid pinhole camera kits mid last year, and am thinking about buying one. Is it worth buying one, or is it cheaper and just as good to make one from an old back? I am a complete Polaroid beginner (only used a day lab a few times), can anyone recommend the best sites to check out to learn about building a polaroid-pinhole? What old camera models would I be looking for to get the back? Cheers, Louisa See the following site for Polaroid pack film camera models -- and lots of other information on Polaroid cameras and film: http://www.rwhirled.com/landlist/landdcam-pack.htm The rigid body Colorpack and Super Shooter models (but not Square Shooter) are easily found on eBay and in thrift stores, are inexpensive, and are easily converted to pinhole use. You just need to be sure to get the 100-series film cameras, not the 80-series ones. These are definitely cheaper than a $100 new Poloroid pinhole camera. The cameras are also cheaper than separate film backs. Without very little work, you can convert one to a "normal" focal length pinhole camera. The June/July 1998 issue of Camera Arts has an article on cutting one down to make a wide-angle body. And the Polaroid Big Shot camera can be nade into a telephoto camera.
[pinhole-discussion] Re: Paper negative
Dear James, I use fiber vc papers for paper negatives. Lately I have been using Oriental VC, even though it is VC, I get a contrast range that works for me. I agree with Rob -- 1 graded paper is quite good but it is hard to find. I like fiber because the fiber in the paper gives a certain soft quality to the positive image, a personal preference. When making contacts, I remove the lens from my enlarger -- the exposure times are quite fast Rusty
Re: [pinhole-discussion] Polaroid Pinhole Kits
I tried one pack of the sepia and wasted a lot of it because I underestimated the reciprocitycorrection very badly. It would be a contributiuon for soemone to come up with good reciprocity recommendations for polaroid sepia. - Original Message - From: Louisa M. Kirby To: pinhole-discussion@p at ??? Cc: lmki...@hotmail.com Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 7:19 AM Subject: [pinhole-discussion] Polaroid Pinhole Kits I am in Japan where they released Polaroid pinhole camera kits mid last year, and am thinking about buying one. http://www.polaroid.co.jp/product/business/pinhole/pinhole.html http://www.polaroid.co.jp/support/pinhole_sample.html The sepia kit is about ��8000 and colour is ��9000. Each include a double pack of film (sepia 606 and colour 669). They were planned to be released in the US last October for $100, but I have never seen them there. Anyway this is a bit much for a cardboard box. My questions are: Is there any reason that I could not use sepia/b&w film in the colour camera and visa-versa? Is it worth buying one, or is it cheaper and just as good to make one from an old back? I am a complete Polaroid beginner (only used a day lab a few times), can anyone recommend the best sites to check out to learn about building a polaroid-pinhole? What old camera models would I be looking for to get the back? Cheers, Louisa P.S. Should it be "pinaroid," "polarhole," or "pinholaroid"? -- MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here ___ Pinhole-Discussion mailing list Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? unsubscribe or change your account at http://www.???/discussion/
Re: [pinhole-discussion] A NEW DEBATE
Let me know when the debate starts. I have some thoughts. - Original Message - From: "ragowaring" To: Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 6:46 AM Subject: Re: [pinhole-discussion] A NEW DEBATE > I would like to open up a debate. > > I feel it is time we discussed critically what we are doing. Not a > critiscism of individual works or persons but a debate on our aims, purposes > and motivation.We hardly ever talk about why and what we are doing, > almost always how. > > What is more important, style or content? > > Are you driven by developing the subject and idea or by the means of > achieving this through technical innovations? > > Some of us are very interested in technique and some in content, obviously > the two should work together one informing the other, but what do you think? > > Alexis > > > ___ > Pinhole-Discussion mailing list > Pinhole-Discussion@p at ??? > unsubscribe or change your account at > http://www.???/discussion/ >
[pinhole-discussion] January mailing
Hi everyone, I hope that everyone is doing well and you are getting out and taking some time to do some pinhole. I'm very proud to anounce that we now have 550 members to the pinhole list. Keep up the good work. This is one of the, if not the best photo discussion group on the web. Plus a big thanks to Gregg and Guy who with out them this list would not be as good as it is. It looks like the World Wide Pinhole Photography Day II is going well. Remember to support it in any way that you can. I believe it is the best way to spread the wonderful world of pinhole around the planet. Below you will find a few "rules" or guide lines as I like to call them that contain to the pinohole discussion list. If you are new to the group I suggest that you print them out and keep them close by. Sorry I havn't been around much but I have been having some personal problems that have kept me away from working with the list as much as I would like. If you are having some probles with the list I suggest that you get in touch with either Gregg or Guy first, if for some reason they can not resolve your problem,(which I doubt) then come to me. It might take me some time to respond but I will get back to you. Also remember that you can do much if not all of the admin work yourself. James PINHOLE DISCUSSION MAILING LIST Document dated: February 15, 2001 PURPOSE OF THE LIST: The purpose of the pinhole discussion mailing list is the discussion of any and all aspects of pinhole photography. All messages sent to this list should be related to pinhole photography. THE RULES OF THE LIST: There are no specific rules for participating on this list. But everyone is reminded that list membership is a privilege, and list members are expected to treat each other with proper respect. Personal attacks or "flames" will not be tolerated and can get one banned from the list. If you encounter any problems of any kind in using the list, please notify James Kellar at ja...@kellar.com, Gregg Kemp at gregg.kemp@p at ???, or Guy Glorieux at guy.glori...@sympatico.ca. Please do not send problems you may encounter to the list. The only ones who can help you solve these problems are James, Gregg or Guy. At this time please contact Gregg or Guy first. If you do not get a responce from either of them then e-mail James. REPLYING TO POSTINGS: Messages sent to you via the discussion list are set up to "behave" differently from messages sent to you by an individual. When you "reply" (using your email program's reply feature) to messages you receive from the list, your reply will automatically be directed back to the mailing list and NOT to the person who sent the message. The list program creates a Replyto: discussion-list@p at ??? line in the mail message header. This tells your email program to send the message back to the list rather than the person who originally sent the message. In order to send a private message back to someone who sent a message through the list by replying, you must change the To: address from pinhole-discussion@p at ??? to the individual's e-mail address. Note that if someone puts the list in the Cc: field rather than the To: field, the reply may go to the sender rather than the list. For this reason, it is ALWAYS a good idea to check who you are sending an e-mail to before sending it. ATTACHMENTS Attachments are files that are attached to an email message. The email system is designed to send messages using standard ASCII character set. Attachments are a way of sending a content that uses characters outside of the ASCII standard. Attachments are not welcome on this list. They are large. They usually can only be accessed with a specific program. They can unintentionally carry viruses. A significant portion of the list is unable to use attachments. Please do not send attachments to the list. All email to the list should be send as plain text. This is the one and only standard used by all computers and all email programs. Some email programs by default send email messages as attachments, the MS Outlook Express and Netscape's Communicator are often set up to send all email messages as two attachments, one in plain text (ASCII) and one in 'rich' text (html format). If you use these programs please change your setting so that your messages will be sent as plain text ONLY. WARNINGS, VIRUSES, TAXES, END OF THE WORLD ETC There are always a number of hoaxes traversing the net, where one is urged to email an urgent warning message concerning some catastrophic new virus, government policy, etc to everyone you know These are almost always hoaxes. Do not send copies of these to the list, even if you are sure it is legitimate.
[pinhole-discussion] new images
I added 5 new pictures to our list upload system. Here are some words on how they wer made and why, with this mix of old and new technologies. The pictures were made with a technical camera, a Linhof. Instead of a plate with a lens a plate with a tube was mounted. A Kodak professional filterholder was mounted on the tube with its three screws. Normally you whould mount it on the lens. Instead of a filter (these filterholders adapt a square sanwich made of nylon in between a gelatin filter can be mounted of about 2 inches square) a pinhole was mounted. On the back of the camera was a Polaroid cassette loaded with 400 ASA b&w film-pack. A three minute exposure was required (trial and error exposure method). The thus obtained positive was scanned and worked on in both Photoshop and Corel Photopaint. These programs have different qualities, the former seems to stem from the photgraphic world, the letter an add-on to a drawing program (this is subjective). An interesting point in this method of working is that from each step one can go forwrd or back. Say that a scan is available, with software techniques the image can be manipulated to a second image. Call the original the parent, a parent can have many children, but every time the artist can turn back to that parent. Call the children the second generation of images, they can also provide the basis for further results. One pinhole can lead to a "family" of images from which the most successfull can be chosen at a certain moment in time. At a later moment in time I will take a file (call it a "paiting" or "aquarel") and work on it in an attempt to obtain other results. The fact that a pinhole lays at he basis of these constructions gives them specific qualities. Long exposure-times and a certain unsharpness are ideal for certain parent. It is not a split second registration, my model will move in the 3 minute exposure and I sometimes don´t want details but say a charcoal sketch to start with. In this method the old techniques mix with the new, each with their own qualities. Let me know what you think of the images and artistic approach.
Re: [pinhole-discussion] A NEW DEBATE
In a message dated 1/13/02 8:52:03 AM, ragowar...@btinternet.com writes: << Some of us are very interested in technique and some in content, obviously the two should work together one informing the other, but what do you think? >> I think you are bringing up a very important point and thank you for raising it. I think we should pursue that as a discussion. leezy
[pinhole-discussion] Art:21 Pinholes on PBS
For those subscribers in the USA, PBS in re-running their series Art:21, starting this Thursday. For those especially interested in pinholes, you should watch the segment on ANN HAMILTON who exposes pinhole images in her mouth. http://www.pbs.org/art21/artists/hamilton/index.html "PBS will air Art:21 on January 17, January 24, January 31 and February 7 - four consecutive Thursdays, from 10-11pm." I think that the Ann Hamilton segment is to be shown on the second episode on January 24. (Photographers also interested in Sally Mann should also check out January 17!) There are clips for the series available online at http://www.pbs.org/art21/artists/hamilton/clip2.html Enjoy, Louisa Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here
[pinhole-discussion] Polaroid Pinhole Kits
I am in Japan where they released Polaroid pinhole camera kits mid last year, and am thinking about buying one. http://www.polaroid.co.jp/product/business/pinhole/pinhole.htmlhttp://www.polaroid.co.jp/support/pinhole_sample.html The sepia kit is about 8000 and colour is 9000. Each include a double pack of film (sepia 606 and colour 669). They were planned to be released in the US last October for $100, but I have never seen them there. Anyway this is a bit much for a cardboard box. My questions are: Is there any reason that I could not use sepia/b&w film in the colour camera and visa-versa?Is it worth buying one, or is it cheaper and just as good to make one from an old back? I am a complete Polaroid beginner (only used a day lab a few times), can anyone recommend the best sites to check out to learn about building a polaroid-pinhole? What old camera models would I be looking for to get the back? Cheers, Louisa P.S. Should it be "pinaroid," "polarhole," or "pinholaroid"?MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here
Re: [pinhole-discussion] A NEW DEBATE
I would like to open up a debate. I feel it is time we discussed critically what we are doing. Not a critiscism of individual works or persons but a debate on our aims, purposes and motivation.We hardly ever talk about why and what we are doing, almost always how. What is more important, style or content? Are you driven by developing the subject and idea or by the means of achieving this through technical innovations? Some of us are very interested in technique and some in content, obviously the two should work together one informing the other, but what do you think? Alexis
Re: [pinhole-discussion] New Image Upload
I think I've figured out why I like the way your Bender pinhole camera puts that vignette at the top of the image: It reminds me of the shape of the photos used in the old stereo viewer cards. Mike Vande Bunt Steve Wilson wrote: I continue to be amazed at the detail of pinhole images. This image was taken at taken a local marina. www.???/discussion/upload/gallery2002.php?pic=pinholetug. jpg *** Steve Wilson Bainbridge Island, WA Email: steve.wil...@eyeconcur.com
Re: [pinhole-discussion] polaroid pinhole kits
Just a guess, but since Polaroid Corp. is currently involved in a reorganization to avoid bankruptcy they may have put on "hold" products targeted at a specialty market... Mike Vande Bunt Gregg Kemp wrote: At 11:49 AM 1/12/02 -0800, you wrote: (forwarded from the polaroid_enthusiasts list, snipped for size) in Japan they released Polaroid pinhole camera kitsmid lastyear. http://www.polaroid.co.jp/product/business/pinhole/pinhole.html http://www.polaroid.co.jp/support/pinhole_sample.html The sepia kitis about ??8000 and colour is ??9000. Each include a double pack of film. They were planned to be released in the US last October for $100, but I have never seen them there. -- J.E. Patterson www.lightjunkie.org | www.luxumbradei.com Ed Levinson has tried these out. He added a story about this in the Pinhole Diary last September: http://www.???/diary/index.php?id=188 But, I've heard nothing from Polaroid since announcing a late October release of these. Gregg _
