RE: HNC
If I recall correctly, the term was coined to identify a non-twangy type of country music, in which the steel and fiddle, when present-is put way back in the mix. The derision of HNC acts, is, I think, based on just this attempt to de-hickify the music and make it palatable to the suburban woman demographic (which is not a slur... So you've said. I don't think you recall correctly, though - or, if you do, I think that what you correctly recall isn't correct, mostly because the steel and fiddle, which are usually present, aren't especially way back in the mix. Shania and Mutt, for instance, will beat you to death with the damn fiddles - in fact, Glen Duncan told me, when I was interviewing for a Bluegrass Unlimited article on Longview that he considered the stuff of theirs that he played on to be (or, more accurately, to include) "a bluegrass/mountain based thing," and said that Lange is into "rootsy" stuff; I'm a bit dubious of that bluegrass/mountain part, but I'm not willing to dismiss the first-hand testimony of an extremely knowledgeable guy without carefully considering it. His take on these matters pointed, first and foremost (and IMO correctly) to the "really big drums," and he went on to note that at most sessions, "the only guys from a country background are the fiddle and steel players," which suggests that important differences reside in the way that the guitars, drums and keyboards are *played*, not the presence or absence of steel and fiddle. A lot of those instrumentalists grew up on the Eagles *and* the Rolling Stones; they may represent polar opposites to the cognoscenti, but not all of us are fortunate enough to be in that group. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: HNC
Agreed, though Nashville sports a larger central infrastructure of players (and money to pay those players), which bands working in other cities don't have access to, regardless of their tastes. I know of several bands that would love to play live with a steel player but can't afford or find one. Pittsburgh, for example, doesn't have dozens of steel players available, nor I would guess do most towns not named Nashville or perhaps Austin. This might be the launching point for a thread amongst themusicians on the list. Are there instruments you'd like to use either live or in the studio that you are unable to use due to cost or lack of interested players? It's hard as hell just to find a guitar player with any decent country chops here in Philadelphia, much less a pedal steel player (though as Barry mentioned in another post, we've been lucky enough to latch on to one). From what I can tell, there are only 2 or 3 guys playing the pedal steel regularly in bands in the greater Philadelphia area, and maybe a handful more playing some lap steel. The situation's only moderately better w/ fiddle players. (Add in to the equation the fact that you may actually want them to play along w/ a guitar with, gasp, distortion, and 2 of the 3 run out the door to begin with.) So yes, it seems, at least here, more a question of supply than taste, and I think Carl's probably correct that it's the same in most other places. I can't think of an countryish band in town that isn't searching for that elusive "utility" man, a la Jim (Dave?) Boquist, who can add some banjo/fiddle/steel into the mix without having to carry an individual player for each instrument. (Overheard at a recent show of ours: Young woman: What is he playing? Her Date, with confidence: It's called a floor guitar, sweetheart. Young woman: Oh, I want to learn to play the floor guitar.) For what it's worth, the inclusion of a pedal steel or a fiddle doesn't seem, to me, to be a very fruitful point of (qualitative) differentiation between the HNC and "alt" country crowds. Too much of it on both sides of the fence to be different except by degree...
RE: HNC
Brad says: Interesting you should say this, Jon, as it seems to me that some alt.country acts exist within this description precisely because they have the fiddle and/or steel that makes them "country rock". For example Richard Buckner wouldn't sound quite so alt.country if he didn't have Lloyd Maines on steel all over his recordings. Well, shoot, anyone can *record* with a steel player; I'm talking about carrying one in the band g. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: HNC
Not knowing exactly where this started, I probably shouldn't jump in, but hey it's never stopped me before. Richard Buckner did take Eric Heywood on tour for a while. (he plays lap and pedal steel) Thank you, In a message dated 1/31/99 7:27:31 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Brad says: Interesting you should say this, Jon, as it seems to me that some alt.country acts exist within this description precisely because they have the fiddle and/or steel that makes them "country rock". For example Richard Buckner wouldn't sound quite so alt.country if he didn't have Lloyd Maines on steel all over his recordings. Well, shoot, anyone can *record* with a steel player; I'm talking about carrying one in the band g.
Re: HNC
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 31-Jan-99 RE: HNC by "Jon Weisberger"@fuse.ne Well, shoot, anyone can *record* with a steel player; I'm talking about carrying one in the band g. Using that map, Joel Phelps, Richard Buckner, the Waco Brothers, Blue Rodeo Son Volt are not alt.country. All have "carried" steel players on the road, as has that defunct Opry stalwart American Music Club. Carl Z.
RE: HNC
Using that map, Joel Phelps, Richard Buckner, the Waco Brothers, Blue Rodeo Son Volt are not alt.country. Now just a goddamn minute. I didn't say that bands that carry steel players aren't alt.country. I said that mainstream country acts got 'em and/or fiddlers, and alt.country acts don't, and followed that with a qualifier - to wit, that there are exceptions, which y'all are busy listing as though it's some kind of refutation. It ain't, especially if the same couple of bands and steel players keep turning up. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: HNC
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 31-Jan-99 RE: HNC by "Jon Weisberger"@fuse.ne I said that mainstream country acts got 'em and/or fiddlers, and alt.country acts don't, and followed that with a qualifier - to wit, that there are exceptions, which y'all are busy listing as though it's some kind of refutation. It ain't, especially if the same couple of bands and steel players keep turning up. 1) Most of these "exceptions" are the folks who get talked about extensively here, and whose records appear at or near the top of p2's year end polls. If these artists are expections, I need a clear definition of what is alt.country. 2) The only steel player who appears twice on my list is Eric Heywood, who plays with Son Volt and Richard Buckner. Even there, he's toured extensively with both acts. The other acts ohave their own steel players. I did not list examples such as Greg Leisz, who plays with five billion acts (as do Nashville players like Paul Franklin), nor did I list acts such as Maral, who do use steel, though not very much. These are acts that use steel extensively, take steel players on the road, and are widely considered standard-bearers of whatever we try to define as "alt.country". Carl Z. who won't start listing alt.country acts with fiddle unless there's a request
Re: HNC
Carl Z. who won't start listing alt.country acts with fiddle unless there's a request Please do. I'm curious. Dina
RE: HNC
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 31-Jan-99 RE: HNC by "Jon Weisberger"@fuse.ne I said that mainstream country acts got 'em and/or fiddlers, and alt.country acts don't, and followed that with a qualifier - to wit, that there are exceptions, which y'all are busy listing as though it's some kind of refutation. It ain't, especially if the same couple of bands and steel players keep turning up. 1) Most of these "exceptions" are the folks who get talked about extensively here, and whose records appear at or near the top of p2's year end polls. If these artists are expections, I need a clear definition of what is alt.country. Ha, you're not going to get me to play that game; far better minds than mine have been ruined by attempting the exercise g. Whether they appear at the top of P2's year end polls or the bottom matters little in terms of looking at the numbers, and as far as I know, the majority of the acts appearing on P2's year end polls or reviewed in ND don't tour with a pedal steel guitar player; if you want to take issue with that, go down the lists, weed out the bluegrassers g and then see how many of them carry a steel guitar. As far as I know, the majority of those acts derided as HNC do. The point being not that this makes the alt.country acts bad, but that, suggestions to the contrary notwithstanding, the absence of the instrument, or of the fiddle, is not a reliable marker for HNC, and especially ought not to be used as a point of derision by alt.country fans. And yes, Paul Franklin gets a lot of studio work, but 1) so do a decent number of other folks - Sonny Garrish, Bruce Bouton, Robbie Turner, to name a few - 2) virtually every album coming out of Nashville's got steel guitar and/or fiddle on it (the most notable exceptions being the band acts like Diamond Rio) and 3) most importantly, behind the A-list of studio guys there's a whole bunch of B-list guys who go out on the road to play behind the mainstream acts, and there isn't in the alt.country field. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: HNC
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 31-Jan-99 RE: HNC by "Jon Weisberger"@fuse.ne the absence of the instrument, or of the fiddle, is not a reliable marker for HNC, and especially ought not to be used as a point of derision by alt.country fans. Fair enough, and I for one wouldn't call'em on that. (Hell, Johnny Cash has cut too many records without fiddle or steel for that to be a reasonable call in my book.) I would say though, that steel and fiddle (off the top of my head, Dina, this includes the Jayhawks, Geraldine Fibbers, Freakwater, Blood Oranges, etc) have been prevalent in alt.country bands' music. Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 31-Jan-99 RE: HNC by "Jon Weisberger"@fuse.ne And yes, Paul Franklin gets a lot of studio work, but 1) so do a decent number of other folks - Sonny Garrish, Bruce Bouton, Robbie Turner, to name a few - 2) virtually every album coming out of Nashville's got steel guitar and/or fiddle on it (the most notable exceptions being the band acts like Diamond Rio) and 3) most importantly, behind the A-list of studio guys there's a whole bunch of B-list guys who go out on the road to play behind the mainstream acts, and there isn't in the alt.country field. Agreed, though Nashville sports a larger central infrastructure of players (and money to pay those players), which bands working in other cities don't have access to, regardless of their tastes. I know of several bands that would love to play live with a steel player but can't afford or find one. Pittsburgh, for example, doesn't have dozens of steel players available, nor I would guess do most towns not named Nashville or perhaps Austin. This might be the launching point for a thread amongst themusicians on the list. Are there instruments you'd like to use either live or in the studio that you are unable to use due to cost or lack of interested players? Carl Z.
RE: HNC
Carl says: the absence of the instrument, or of the fiddle, is not a reliable marker for HNC, and especially ought not to be used as a point of derision by alt.country fans. Fair enough, and I for one wouldn't call'em on that. (Hell, Johnny Cash has cut too many records without fiddle or steel for that to be a reasonable call in my book.) I would say though, that steel and fiddle (off the top of my head, Dina, this includes the Jayhawks, Geraldine Fibbers, Freakwater, Blood Oranges, etc) have been prevalent in alt.country bands' music. I still find that "prevalent" a bit hard to swallow, so I'd be interested if you or someone would undertake to analyze the best-of lists, or a sample of several months' worth of ND reviews, or the ND Top 40, or some fairly sizeable list of alt.country releases/acts in these terms. In any event, we seem to be agreed on the main point. Nashville sports a larger central infrastructure of players (and money to pay those players), which bands working in other cities don't have access to, regardless of their tastes. I know of several bands that would love to play live with a steel player but can't afford or find one. That's surely a factor, perhaps the major one, but I think there are perhaps differing sets of expectations involved, too. This might be the launching point for a thread amongst themusicians on the list. Are there instruments you'd like to use either live or in the studio that you are unable to use due to cost or lack of interested players? We'd love to have a theremin player, but they all say they're holding out for the big bucks. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/ Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
RE: steel in alt.country (was: HNC)
Nashville sports a larger central infrastructure of players (and money to pay those players), which bands working in other cities don't have access to, regardless of their tastes. I know of several bands that would love to play live with a steel player but can't afford or find one. That's surely a factor, perhaps the major one, but I think there are perhaps differing sets of expectations involved, too. I also have the feeling that a lot more bands would have steel if they could! By coincidence--this subject came up just last night at that NYC Old 97s show--because the apparently wealthy start-up band "Sea of Cortez" (they were also throwing around Martins and Fenders) had a working steel player--andd (rumor has it) those Buck Diaz boys have just been adding promising steel player to their band too...But the difficulty of finding one that you could and might want to work with most places was an issue. (Those Ghost Rockets, steel and all, should have something to say about this too.) Barry
Re: steel in alt.country (was: HNC)
Son Volt an interesting case in point - they've been touring lately without Eric, resulting in some songs being dropped from the set list (notably "Left a Slide". Damn shame). On others, Dave Boquist has been forced to do some interesting, inventive things on his six string to cover for the missing steel guitar. He also gets to play less fiddle. IMHO, it's damaged the SV live sound/repertoire somewhat. Although some of the new material certainly heads into rockier territory, fiddle and steel seem to me integral to the Son Volt sound Stevie
RE: HNC
Blah blah categorizing things blah blah drawing boundaries blah blah muddying the waters blah blah exact criteria by which the players are placed in column A or column B. Column A(=bands w/fiddle and/or steel) Column B (bands w/o fiddle and/or steel) mainstream country acts, alt.country acts, e.g., Garth Brooks e.g., Bottlerockets Blah blah there is the occasional steel-carrying alt.country act, and there are some mainstream acts that don't carry one, but all in all that's a reasonably accurate map. Interesting you should say this, Jon, as it seems to me that some alt.country acts exist within this description precisely because they have the fiddle and/or steel that makes them "country rock". For example Richard Buckner wouldn't sound quite so alt.country if he didn't have Lloyd Maines on steel all over his recordings.
RE: HNC
Hot New Country. i.e. "not your parents old twangy country" Promo slogan for denatured country music designed to appeal to a particular primo demographic. Soft and 70s rock crap with a fiddle buried way way back. So, this is what I learned today: HNC is not really "hot." It's new only in that its not "old." And it's barely "country." Hmm, I'm confused. No need to be confused; the first line of Stuart's definition is right. After that it's more problematic, insofar as it describes only a part of what's available on mainstream country radio; there's a good deal more fiddle and steel guitar to be heard from the mainstream than from the alt.country side. It's revealing, though, in terms of what Carl Wilson was discussing - i.e., the "soft and 70s rock crap" is a marker indicating that the underlying point is the writer's taste in rock music. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
RE: HNC
OK, so these are not traditional ways of categorizing things, but I'm kind of confused on just what the boundaries are or why they are important, although they clearly are. If you're confused on what they are and why they're important, maybe you shouldn't be spending time plotting them, then. I kind of take comments about "denatured" country music and a description of one kind of what is generally accepted as country music as "soft and 70s rock crap" as leaning in the direction of drawing boundaries. But unless the "70s" part of that phrase is purely objective description - rock music made between 1970 and 1979 - then by golly, a difference of opinion regarding what kind of rock is better than what other kind is the, or at least a critical part of, the underlying point. And calling Owens rock and late 60s Rolling Stones country is just a Humpty Dumpty way of muddying the waters. there's a good deal more fiddle and steel guitar to be heard from the mainstream than from the alt.country side. Well I can't engage this claim without seeing a lineup of the teams and the exact criteria by which the players are placed in column A or column B. Column A(=bands w/fiddle and/or steel) Column B (bands w/o fiddle and/or steel) mainstream country acts,alt.country acts, e.g., Garth Brooks e.g., Bottlerockets Always glad to help clear things up. Of course, there is the occasional steel-carrying alt.country act, and there are some mainstream acts that don't carry one, but all in all that's a reasonably accurate map. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
