Re: glass houses:(was Re: boot me baby, but don't sell it)
Bob Soron wrote: At 5:19 PM -0500 on 3/24/99, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: so now that i've been beaten up for my views on bootlegging, am i to assume that all those that have had a dissenting view point in one form or another have never purchased, or even traded for, such an item? just curious... Let me try to explain my vehemence regarding this subject... I produced an album with Stevie Ray Vaughn and Lou Ann Barton- two, actually, in 1979. Stevie and I parted ways when he went to Epic and I handed over every single one of my tapes to his manager. I didn't keep dubs or copies or nuthin' because I loved Stevie and I didn't want the bad karma of the temptation of a bootleg hanging over me. Now some dick-weed has bootlegged MY stevie sessions and pressed them and is selling them, apparently using a copy of MY mastering that I had given to Stevie and the band to approve. I cannot tell you how angry this makes me. I have no tolerance for this. Not only is Stevie's estate being robbed here, but I and the band are being screwed as well. Trading of concert tapes is a different thing, although as an artist I feel that I should have control over whether sub-par performances get out. Kimmie and I never sign releases prior to a show, only after we view the results, and if anybody were to ask about taping I just say "send me a copy of it and we'll talk about it" because in truth, an artist deserves and in fact owns the right to all performances. Because music or spoken word are ephemeral rather than concrete, there is an underlying feeling that they are less "owned" by the artist. This leads to all sorts of abuse, ranging from terrible shows passed around to laws passed by Congress taking away royalties for commercial use of copyrighted music. I view it as a matter of degree and intent- if you love somebody enough to want to tape them and trade tapes with other fans, great, but give the artist the courtesy of saying yes or no. If you are selling the artist's image or work without consent or royalty agreements, then you are stealing property. thankyouverymuch, JG -- Joe E. Gracey President-For-Life, Jackalope Records http://www.kimmierhodes.com
Re: glass houses:(was Re: boot me baby, but don't sell it)
At 10:57 AM -0600 on 3/25/99, Joe Gracey wrote:
Let me try to explain my vehemence regarding this subject...
I produced an album with Stevie Ray Vaughn and Lou Ann Barton- two,
actually, in 1979. Stevie and I parted ways when he went to Epic and I
handed over every single one of my tapes to his manager. I didn't keep
dubs or copies or nuthin' because I loved Stevie and I didn't want the
bad karma of the temptation of a bootleg hanging over me.
Now some dick-weed has bootlegged MY stevie sessions and pressed them
and is selling them, apparently using a copy of MY mastering that I had
given to Stevie and the band to approve.
I cannot tell you how angry this makes me. I have no tolerance for this.
Not only is Stevie's estate being robbed here, but I and the band are
being screwed as well.
Joe, that really sucks, and I'm behind everything you say. I've got no
use for this sort of thing myself. I have heard that in the case of the
one unreleased album I own, the artist (someone you've known for a long
time, and that should make it pretty obvious) was very frustrated at
the label's decision not to release it and made copies pretty liberally
available. Now, if that's true, hindsight doesn't help him much if he's
changed his mind since then. If that isn't true but some after-the-fact
rationalization cooked up by people in a position to know him down
there, let me know. (And while this isn't any consolation on any sort
of basis, my copy isn't good enough quality to trade to anyone else
anyway.)
It also sounds like someone -- either Stevie or his manager, perhaps --
may have considered the tapes a souvenir at some point, something to be
given as a gift rather than property in which many had not only a
financial but also an emotional stake. It would only be just for that
snake's skin to be turned into boots. g
Trading of concert tapes is a different thing, although as an artist I
feel that I should have control over whether sub-par performances get
out. Kimmie and I never sign releases prior to a show, only after we
view the results, and if anybody were to ask about taping I just say
"send me a copy of it and we'll talk about it" because in truth, an
artist deserves and in fact owns the right to all performances. Because
music or spoken word are ephemeral rather than concrete, there is an
underlying feeling that they are less "owned" by the artist. This leads
to all sorts of abuse, ranging from terrible shows passed around to laws
passed by Congress taking away royalties for commercial use of
copyrighted music. I view it as a matter of degree and intent- if you
love somebody enough to want to tape them and trade tapes with other
fans, great, but give the artist the courtesy of saying yes or no. If
you are selling the artist's image or work without consent or royalty
agreements, then you are stealing property.
I do have stuff I would never trade because I know the artist wouldn't
want it to be traded. Obviously, this implies there were folks further
up the chain who weren't so worried about that. I can't be responsible
for them, but I can try to have some ethics myself. Since I don't tape
shows myself (as I told one person offlist, this is pragmatic -- I'm
there to have fun, not to attend to the logistics of hidden recording
equipment), I'm a pretty small fish in a pretty big pond.
But I do want to suggest, and this isn't to contradict a single thing
you say, that there can be a disparity between what the performer and
the fan considers a terrible show. Let's take, purely for the sake of
argument, Kimmie. I've lived in two pretty good music towns, I've been
a fan since '90 ("Angels Get the Blues"). I still didn't see y'all
until last year's Twangfest. Now, I know that isn't from a lack of
trying on your part, but it still worked out that way. Now, that set
was a really fine one, and would have been even without the Magic Feet
of Tom Ekeberg, but even if you folks had thought it was a tough one, I
figure I would have been pretty happy. Now, I don't own a tape of the
set or any of the TF sets (I was counting on the official live tape,
RIP), but again, to bring it back to general terms, if there's someone
whose work I've enjoyed for a long long time and after many years I get
to see them and I end up with the opportunity to have a souvenir of
that moment, I'll want one. Again, I do respect the wishes of folks who
don't want it traded, but for myself? Sure.
Bob
Re: glass houses:(was Re: boot me baby, but don't sell it)
Bob Soron wrote: But I do want to suggest, and this isn't to contradict a single thing you say, that there can be a disparity between what the performer and the fan considers a terrible show. Most artists are perfectionists of one kind or another (it is one of the qualities that helps them get anywhere) so what they consider bad may not seem so to a normal human. This is impossible to draw a solid line about. -- Joe Gracey President-For-Life, Jackalope Records http://www.kimmierhodes.com
RE: glass houses:(was Re: boot me baby, but don't sell it)
Oh, yeah, almost forgot... I've never bought a bootleg, nor do I solicit trades. I do have about two dozen tapes of live shows (I'm the guy Bob referred to in his post in this thread yesterday) by a half-dozen different artists, all but one of whom were the original, and in most cases the immediate, sources for the tapes - and I know because I've asked 'em; in most cases, they were given to me directly to illustrate some point or other we were discussing (example: I was talking with a member of Band A about a number written by a member but never recorded by them, that was recorded by Band B; he gave me a tape of a Band A show that had their version, so that I could check out differences in arrangements and solos). I have also, on a handful of occasions, made copies of a couple of these tapes for individuals I think I know and I trust. That's not a 100% reliable control, but it sure beats posting lists of stuff for trade with all and sundry. Like Nancy said yesterday, you have to draw the line somewhere, and that's where I draw it - and recent trade solicitations on this list from folks who pop up out of nowhere don't make me feel like it's a bad place to do so. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: glass houses:(was Re: boot me baby, but don't sell it)
In a message dated 3/25/99 1:10:35 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now some dick-weed has bootlegged MY stevie sessions and pressed them and is selling them, apparently using a copy of MY mastering that I had given to Stevie and the band to approve. I believe the culprit is Home Cookin' Records out of Houston. Well known for it's blues bootlegs, they are calling it a LouAnn Barton album with the title "Sugar Coated Baby". The XL Ent. insert in today's AA-S said that "neither Barton or the SRV estate are happy about the album." Well, duh. If anyone has the label's Email address maybe we can mass-flame them!! Slim - lookin' for trouble
Re: glass houses:(was Re: boot me baby, but don't sell it)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/25/99 1:10:35 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Now some dick-weed has bootlegged MY stevie sessions and pressed them and is selling them, apparently using a copy of MY mastering that I had given to Stevie and the band to approve. I believe the culprit is Home Cookin' Records out of Houston. Actually, I think this is a different session they are pressing. I can't recall the name on the boot I saw of my sessions. -- Joe Gracey President-For-Life, Jackalope Records http://www.kimmierhodes.com
Re: glass houses:(was Re: boot me baby, but don't sell it)
I have never bought a bootleg that I am aware of, I feel guilty buying a cutout from Cats. I sell "official bootlegs" on my web page and call them the "Tijuana Tapes" (when the bastard is working) for real cheap. If someone wants to hear every bad old demo I did, more power to them. If someone wants to trade because they don't have money (there always is atleast one letter from a prisoner somewhere) I take mojos, icons and religious curios.
Re: glass houses:(was Re: boot me baby, but don't sell it)
At 5:19 PM -0500 on 3/24/99, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: so now that i've been beaten up for my views on bootlegging, am i to assume that all those that have had a dissenting view point in one form or another have never purchased, or even traded for, such an item? just curious... In one of those wonderful coincidences, exactly a year ago tomorrow, one of the anti-bootleggers in the thread sent me mail offlist noting that he had acquired a fair number of bootlegs in the course of things, but doesn't mention it because the times he has, he was swamped with requests for copies, and there are sometimes other reasons for being cagey. Beyond the paraphrase, I won't reproduce private mail, of course, or disclose the identity. But yes, at least one person seems to be playing both sides of the fence. Bob
