RE: Better Live?
Their recorded efforts don't do anything for me. The same is true of the Sovines. Their cassette, Owner Operator was okay, But their live show kicks ass. [Matt Benz] Well, in our defense, that cassette was done so we could get used to our studio, see what worked, how to record what where, blah blah blah. So yeh, it sucked pretty much. There's a real hesitant quality to most of it, and I don't find myself listening to it ever. But lessons learned from the tape helped us with most of the cd. And lessons learned and arguments over this cd will help us with the next one. Most of it was recorded live in some fashion, with vocals and various parts overdubbed, but the end result is pretty damn close to what we sound like, without the speed factor thrown in, and with extry touches like mandolin, pedal steel, accordion, dobro, organ, acoustic guitars, that you generally don't find at a Sovines show. Altogether, we think it catches our live sound ok, particulary where I throw off a ragged half-assed solo. But yeh, it does sound different. I like that aspect. if the live experience is different than the recorded, that's ok with me. I like recording songs and adding sounds that I can't do live, whether that's 3 guitars or a pedal steel part, I do what I hear in my head, as long as the other fellas put up with me. So far, I've avoided tympani drums. Live, we're just a different beast. You're just not gonna see Matt and Bob with acoustic guitars playing Drinks After Church, but neither are we gonna record it the way we play it live, cos it would suck on disc that way. I mean, most of our shows, we don't get to stretch out, we don't have an acoustic set, we rarely have the luxury of time; we treat em as a hit and run, blast em and get off the stage, so a certain "quality" is lost when translated to recording, but other qualities show up. I hope. Anyway, the whole damn thing will be available next month, on Kingpin Records, with a cd release partay here in Columbus on May 14th. Gotta have one of those to really humble yerself. Anyone interested in obtaining a copy, lemme know. I'm sure there will be piles of em in my living room for awhile.
Re: Better Live?
I agree with Jeff. Often the live recording captures a bands excitement more than a studio record. I know some people who hate live albums and I just can't figure out why. If I am going to try out a group, and they have tons of CDs in their section, I'll always choose the live album. As much as I love Del McCoury and his new band, I don't think he has ever captured the sheer brilliance and energy of their live set on record. I pray for a live album. The band I see each year at Merlefest is way superior to the one I hear on "The Family" or "Cold Hard Facts." Bands where their best album is the live one: Backsliders, IIIrd Tyme Out, Jerry Lee Lewis, the Who, Guy Clark, Graham Parker, and from bootlegs Richard Thompson, Gillian Welch, Loudon Wainwright III, V-Roys etc (which intersects with the other thread about the (im)morality of bootlegs. For some bands I couldn't live without them.) Perhaps this difference also has to do with the fact that most studio recordings you hear are actually of a song that was never actually played. Unless the band recorded live with no overdubs the version you hear of a song on a studio album never actually happened. You'd have to be a pretty damn good band to record that way and have the same, or more, energy than a live performance. I'd rather have an occasional flub, or a sour note, and have it be real. == Steve Gardner * Sugar Hill Records Radio Promotion [EMAIL PROTECTED] * www.sugarhillrecords.com WXDU "Topsoil" * A Century of Country Music [EMAIL PROTECTED] * www.topsoil.net ==
Re: Better Live?
In a message dated 3/29/99 2:36:11 PM !!!First Boot!!!, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bands where their best album is the live one: Backsliders, IIIrd Tyme Out, Jerry Lee Lewis, the Who, Guy Clark, Graham Parker, and from bootlegs Richard Thompson, Gillian Welch, Loudon Wainwright III, V-Roys etc (which intersects with the other thread about the (im)morality of bootlegs. For some bands I couldn't live without them.) Steve, Thast is SURELY and opinion statement, because IMHO, "Live at Leeds," while a great album, is surely not the best thing The Who ever put out. Mitch Matthews Gravel Train/Sunken Road
Re: Better Live?
Steve Gardner wrote: Bands where their best album is the live one: You left out the greatest of all: The Allman Brothers (Live at the Fillmore East). An odd one is Robert Earl Keen, who I have always loved live. Something is missing on his studio records, but, oddly enough, I like his live records even less. Perhaps this difference also has to do with the fact that most studio recordings you hear are actually of a song that was never actually played. Unless the band recorded live with no overdubs the version you hear of a song on a studio album never actually happened. You'd have to be a pretty damn good band to record that way and have the same, or more, energy than a live performance. I'd rather have an occasional flub, or a sour note, and have it be real. I've been thinking about this since Joe mentioned the other day that wrong notes are grating. I find that I dont mind goofs in studio records that have the live sound. I'm thinking of old Creedence Clearwater Revival records, for example, which are great records and are full of mistakes. You dont hear many of those in country music records after 1960, so maybe this is something more tolerable in rock or old-time music. Last night we were listening to Willie Nelson's spirit. Once you crank up that record a little (on our stereo anyway) it has a wonderful in-your-livingroom sort of feel. I have a feeling that one crisp, clear screwup in the middle of one of those songs would ruin the entire record. Will Miner Denver, CO
Re: Better Live?
In a message dated 99-03-29 09:35:27 EST, Steve writes: As much as I love Del McCoury and his new band, I don't think he has ever captured the sheer brilliance and energy of their live set on record. I pray for a live album. The band I see each year at Merlefest is way superior to the one I hear on "The Family" or "Cold Hard Facts." Check out Del McCoury with the Dixie pals, Live In Japan. It rocks. - Elena Skye P.S. I also happen to adore "Deeper Shade Of Blue." I think it's a stellar studio album for Del.
Re: Better Live?
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 29-Mar-99 Re: Better Live? by [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thast is SURELY and opinion statement, because IMHO, "Live at Leeds," while a great album, is surely not the best thing The Who ever put out. That would be the Who's RxR Circus version of "A Quick One". While I have some sympathy for Steve's POV, I'd like to add that there are fine songs out there that simply sound superior in-studio. Even Richard Thompson has a few -- "Love in a Faithless Country" comes to mid. And as Joe pointed out, ALL recording has some "trickery", be it multi-tracking vocals and guitars to sampling to even where to place a single mike to record a bluegrass band (and the choice of mike to boot). One "authentic" production I've always loved is the job T-Bone Burnett, Larry Hirsch and Elvis Costello did on the latter's _King of America_. Most of the record was recording live, showing off some nice room ambience, but when slightly flanged vocal overdubs kick in during the middle of "Jack of All Parades" the effect really works well. Matt's comments on the new Sovines record are well taken. The variety of supplemental instruments such as pedal steel and acoustic guitars flatter the songs even if they're not "authentic" to the band's stage sound. Carl Z. Carl Z.
RE: Better Live?
I know Doyle Lawson cleans up at the table, In fact I have heard that he does better at the record table than anywhere else. Is this same thing also true for other acts? Do most Bluegrass bands do better at the table than through paid label royalties? Well, sure, for two reasons: 1) the percentage of the price is bigger than the royalty percentage, and 2) with a few exceptions, somewhere between 80% and 100% of a bluegrass band's record sales are at the table, not at regular retail. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: Better Live?
On Mon, 29 Mar 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Elena Skye P.S. I also happen to adore "Deeper Shade Of Blue." I think it's a stellar studio album for Del. To use my one "I agree" quote for the weekwell, I agree. As a matter of fact, that CD kept me company all the way to work this morning. Soon it will be put in my computer's CD player. Soon to be NP: Del McCoury - A Deeper Shade of Blue Jerry
Steve/Del in Chicago, was == Re: Better Live?
Hi all, Sorry if any of this has been posted, have been off P2 for a few days. Saw Del/Steve et al while in Chicago. They played at The Vic, which is a big old theater with all the seats pulled out. Nice idea except when most of the folks are drunk and smoking like chimneys. The single mic got lost beyond the first 15 "rows" of folks in a very chatty room. Of course, they were still very good. Best part of the show == Mike Bub whacking the back of his bass for the intro to "Copperhead Road," really nice touch! Funniest part of the show == Hats-$27; T-Shirts-$25 (no, I didn't buy a single thing) HOWEVERgot to see an in-store at Borders (accompanied by my unemployed- partner in crime, Bob) and would have easily paid $50 for what we witnessed. Pure heaven, and all within 5ft of Steve/Del and the boyz. Sound was great, Del is a joy to watch and hear any day of the week. Steve looked very dapper in his gray button-down wool vest and plaid cap. Looks like the McCoury's are affecting Steve's grooming habits ;-)) Jason, Ronnie and Robbie were all superb. And of course, everyone was smiling, including grouchy-boy Earle. It's contagious!! I'm hoping to get some pix up on the Unofficial Earle site by week's end. Kate NP - Stephen Bruton/Nothing But The Truth ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Mon, 29 Mar 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Elena Skye P.S. I also happen to adore "Deeper Shade Of Blue." I think it's a stellar studio album for Del. To use my one "I agree" quote for the weekwell, I agree. As a matter of fact, that CD kept me company all the way to work this morning. Soon it will be put in my computer's CD player. Soon to be NP: Del McCoury - A Deeper Shade of Blue Jerry
Re: Steve/Del in Chicago, was == Re: Better Live?
Steve looked very dapper in his gray button-down wool vest and plaid cap. Looks like the McCoury's are affecting Steve's grooming habits ;-)) Now in the Borders show at D.C. Steve was in a Black T-shirt with the white letters "The Beatles". Sorta neat. Stick
Re: Better Live?
You left out the greatest of all: The Allman Brothers (Live at the Fillmore East). What do I look like to you? Some damn hippie? :^) -- == Steve Gardner * Sugar Hill Records Radio Promotion [EMAIL PROTECTED] * www.sugarhillrecords.com WXDU "Topsoil" * A Century of Country Music [EMAIL PROTECTED] * www.topsoil.net ==
Re: Better Live?
While I have some sympathy for Steve's POV, I'd like to add that there are fine songs out there that simply sound superior in-studio. I didn't say every live recording is better than every studio recording. Steve Earle's, for instance, is far inferior to everything he's done since. I just think that on average, I like live recordings better. If I'm gonna buy a CD blind, it's gonna be the live one. Another great thing about a live album as a first purchase is that it also serves as kind of a best of. You mentioned Richard Thompson. While he has many great songs, the best "album" I've ever heard form him was a solo acoustic show that was bootlegged. (and no, I can't make copies.g sorry) -- == Steve Gardner * Sugar Hill Records Radio Promotion [EMAIL PROTECTED] * www.sugarhillrecords.com WXDU "Topsoil" * A Century of Country Music [EMAIL PROTECTED] * www.topsoil.net ==
Re: Better Live?
I agree. I think, for example, that Kiss's "Alive 2" is far better than, say, "Lick It Up" Hello everyone. -Original Message- From: Steve Gardner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: passenger side [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 3:33 PM Subject: Re: Better Live? While I have some sympathy for Steve's POV, I'd like to add that there are fine songs out there that simply sound superior in-studio. I didn't say every live recording is better than every studio recording. Steve Earle's, for instance, is far inferior to everything he's done since. I just think that on average, I like live recordings better. If I'm gonna buy a CD blind, it's gonna be the live one. Another great thing about a live album as a first purchase is that it also serves as kind of a best of. You mentioned Richard Thompson. While he has many great songs, the best "album" I've ever heard form him was a solo acoustic show that was bootlegged. (and no, I can't make copies.g sorry) -- == Steve Gardner * Sugar Hill Records Radio Promotion [EMAIL PROTECTED] * www.sugarhillrecords.com WXDU "Topsoil" * A Century of Country Music [EMAIL PROTECTED] * www.topsoil.net ==
Re: Better Live?
I'm sorry now that I didn't combine these posts into one email. Slogging through digest are kinda cumbersome... - Elena Skye P.S. I also happen to adore "Deeper Shade Of Blue." I think it's a stellar studio album for Del. That is a great album...but it still doesn't even come close to Del and the boys live. IMHO of course. -- == Steve Gardner * Sugar Hill Records Radio Promotion [EMAIL PROTECTED] * www.sugarhillrecords.com WXDU "Topsoil" * A Century of Country Music [EMAIL PROTECTED] * www.topsoil.net ==
Re: Better Live?
At 3:29 PM -0500 on 3/29/99, Steve Gardner wrote: While I have some sympathy for Steve's POV, I'd like to add that there are fine songs out there that simply sound superior in-studio. I didn't say every live recording is better than every studio recording. Steve Earle's, for instance, is far inferior to everything he's done since. I just think that on average, I like live recordings better. If I'm gonna buy a CD blind, it's gonna be the live one. Another great thing about a live album as a first purchase is that it also serves as kind of a best of. I'm with you, Steve. I've got a lot of live (officially released, of course) CDs and LPs from groups whose studio releases I'm just not interested in. In a perfect world, we wouldn't have this ass-backward situation where people go into studios, and we wouldn't have audiences expecting musicians to do things they can't do. I'd like to think that if the Lomaxes' field recordings had outsold Ralph Peer's hotel room recordings, everything would be recorded live and we'd have real documents of what musicians and bands were capable of, not what they wish they were. (Not that I'm so naive that I think officially released live recordings are virgin, of course. I had to buy Jerry Jeff Walker's video of his Gruene Hall show because the CD had more studio musicians than stage musicians.) Bob
RE: Better Live?
Since the general consensus seems to be that, at least for some acts, live music *is* better, let me tell about these killer tapes that I have. . . g Larry
Re: Better Live?
Jeff Wall: How come some acts, usually the Alt Country, Bluegrass, etc, etc, sound so much better live than they do on disc, and others, Big name rock, Country, etc sound so much better on disc than they do live. With zero experience in the studio, Is it that difficult to capture the spirit or energy of a live gig? my completely non-technical take on this is that with some bands, the energy in the room created by the connection between the performer/s and the audience is almost visual, and seems to tangibly affect a large number of the folks who are there. And it's not just a recipe involving drink and rowdyness, like what seems to work so well with a live Wacos show, because I've been the most affected by a live show at some incredibly quiet and sober performances, like Alejandro. Of course, I like Alejandro's CDs just fine, recorded live or in the studio, but I know you and others aren't sure what the hype is from just listening to the recorded stuff. And heck, I was sober for that Saturday Wacos show in Austin and still had a hell of a good time. There is just no way a studio recording can impart that connection. Not all of my favorite bands have that energy live - there are definately some performers that are a waste of time and money to go see live, yet their records kick my ass. And bluegrass music often has that extra ingredient to the live shows of watching the fingers fly and intricate dance of the band working together...how could just an audio recording present that up to the listener? bringing up the fact that a lot of current recording artists need the extra boost given to their talent by technology in the studio is too obvious of an argument to make, let alone one that I would want to have to defend some of the more public alt-country bands against g... meshel n'vegas
RE: Better Live?
I think it's hard to come up with general rules here. The studio can be a pretty dead place, but there have been some mighty fine, spirited, *exciting* studio albums made. Recording with minimal overdubbing can sometimes result in a livelier album, but on the other hand, the Lonesome River Band's Carrying The Tradition is plenty lively and soulful, and it is almost all overdubs; hardly any of the original rhythm tracks made it into the final product. One of the differences I think, lies in budget. When you can spend an hour trying to get one lick from a rhythm guitar just right on one bar on one song, and you cut that lick 12 times until the producer is satisfied, that seems to me to make for a sonically perfect and emotionally dead record. Just sucks the life right out. See above. Besides, while this sounds good, and may be the modus operandi in some circumstances, Nashville studios rarely spend an hour trying to get one lick from anybody, never mind the rhythm guitarist; the guys who do most of the work there don't *need* an hour to get a lick right, which is why they're in such demand. A lot more of that stuff than you'd think is cut in pretty short order, which is how they're able to work multiple sessions in a day. Do the artists even make money on recordings anymore? Or is the gig the good money and the records sold at the record table just the gravy? Dunno much about outside of bluegrass, but record table money in bluegrass is a lot more than gravy; it can be half the take or more. Big bluegrass acts can do $1200 and up at the table. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
RE: Better Live?
Dunno much about outside of bluegrass, but record table money in bluegrass is a lot more than gravy; it can be half the take or more. Big bluegrass acts can do $1200 and up at the table. I know Doyle Lawson cleans up at the table, In fact I have heard that he does better at the record table than anywhere else. Is this same thing also true for other acts? Do most Bluegrass bands do better at the table than through paid label royalties? Jeff Wall http://www.twangzine.com The Webs least sucky music magazine 3421 Daisy Crescent - Va Beach, Va - 23456
Re: Better Live?
Jeff Wall wrote: How come some acts, usually the Alt Country, Bluegrass, etc, etc, sound so much better live than they do on disc, and others, Big name rock, Country, etc sound so much better on disc than they do live. If it is a relatively unknown act live, you tend to overlook slop. On record, slop is disturbing unless it is part of the act. Live, you get this big undifferentiated sound in which almost anything can be put across if enough energy goes into it. A record is a much smaller sound (unless you have a massive system cranked, and even then the dynamic range of a record is about half that of the human ear) and the instruments are separated from each other sonically, more distinct. Bad stuff is more apparent. Bad singing is less forgiveable. Bad playing grates. In person, you may be sucked into the magic of live music (literally) but a record requires you to focus, pay attention, and you hear everything. Big name acts may sound better on CD because they actually cram more energy into their recordings than they muster onstage. Also I think when you go to see a big name act, you already have this expectation based on how great the record sounded, and no live band can ever sound as "good" as a well-produced hit record. Live mixes are not usually as good as studio mixes. think of the stones- their live shows usually more or less sucked compared to the best of their records. Is it that difficult to capture the spirit or energy of a live gig? I think it is extremely difficult, one of the hardest things to try to do. Really, making a record is in a way a "trick" in the same way that making a film is a "trick"- you are going all around the block in order to arrive at something that sounds and feels real, but never was except for the moment of transcription itself. The whole is an assembly of parts, and it is the producer's and engineer's job to be expert enough to fool your ear into believing it is real. It almost never is. I happen to love live studio recording- the kind where the band assembles in the studio and plays the song together, like all the greatest country songs were cut, and all 50s and 60s rock was cut (up to about 67), but even then if you walked into the studio during the session it would not sound like a band in there, only in the control room monitors does the final magic take place. Do the artists even make money on recordings anymore? Most artists at most levels use the whole recording budget to make the record, but if they are lucky they also pay themselves during the process, so they at least don't lose money. Traditionally, the money is in touring once you reach the $5,000-$10,000 and above level. You only make money on record sales if you have massive hits. Touring at the $500-$1000 a night level is not very much fun unless you are in your twenties, single-ish, and ready for anything. On the other hand, this is why I am 48 and look 84. -- Joe Gracey President-For-Life, Jackalope Records http://www.kimmierhodes.com
Re: Better Live?
At 08:40 PM 3/28/99 -0600, Gracey wrote: Touring at the $500-$1000 a night level is not very much fun unless you are in your twenties, single-ish, and ready for anything. On the other hand, this is why I am 48 and look 84. Come on Joe, you don't look a day over 80. well maybe a day, but not quite a week. Jeff Wall http://www.twangzine.com The Webs least sucky music magazine 3421 Daisy Crescent - Va Beach, Va - 23456
Re: Better Live?
Jon Weisberger wrote: Nashville studios rarely spend an hour trying to get one lick from anybody, never mind the rhythm guitarist; the guys who do most of the work there don't *need* an hour to get a lick right, which is why they're in such demand. A lot more of that stuff than you'd think is cut in pretty short order, which is how they're able to work multiple sessions in a day. If any session person had to spend an hour trying to get a lick right, he'd have to spend 49 minutes of it out on the street by himself. In spite of the often weirdly lame commercial cuts coming out of Nashville these days, it is not the pickers' fault. Them boys are hot shit, and having a roomfull of those guys is like getting into a Porsche and stepping on the gas- it goes as fast as you ask it to, and quickly too. We have a group of them that we have learned to know and love through demo sessions and we brought them down to Willie's studio here by our house to do a Kimmie record, and it was pure joy. It is such pleasure to get a group of creative, competitive, exquisitely able players assembled and then make a fun, loose record with them. -- Joe Gracey President-For-Life, Jackalope Records http://www.kimmierhodes.com
Re: Better Live?
Jeff, Donna Jane called me and I'm meeting her for lunch tomorrow. I'm picking up your new DBT CD from her tomorrow and will express mail it. Can't have you out there on a boat without some kickass redneck music g Deb Sommer
Re: Better Live?
Whoops! Sorry, private to Jeff. Anyone interested in review copies of the new Drive-By Truckers CD -- I'll be glad to forward the requests to the non- email, technophobe Patterson or I think you can send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and someone will answer it. But the band is one the road in Florida and headed toward Texas so I don't know who's handling the mail or what. If interested check out their website with new show reviews, lyrics, etc. at www.drivebytruckers.com Deb Sommer
