Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 2021-09-27, 황병희 wrote: > Grant Edwards writes: > >> I've been reading (and posting to) this list for many years by >> pointing an NNTP client >> at news://gmane.comp.python.general. Sometime in the past few days posts >> started >> being refused: >> >> You have tried posting to gmane.comp.python.general, which is a >> unidirectional >> mailing list. Gmane can therefore not send this message to that >> mailing list. >> >> Was this a change made by the mailing list admins? >> >> If so, is it permanent? >> >> [Trying to send a plaintext e-mail via Gmail, but not sure if it's working.] > > Oh this is unhappy news. Because i also using Gmane with > gmane.emacs.help and gmane.linux.debian.user. Posting to other lists in gmane still works fine for me. It's only the python list that turned into read-only. > Only i use Usenet (eternal september) with comp.lang.python. I've switched back and forth between Usenet and gmane a couple times trying to figure out which one had the least breakage in references: headers. I acually wrote a Python program that acted as an NNTP client and counted thread breakage. The last time I ran that test gmane had a slight advantage in thread integrity and fewer posters in need of plonking. -- Grant -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
Grant Edwards writes: > I've been reading (and posting to) this list for many years by > pointing an NNTP client > at news://gmane.comp.python.general. Sometime in the past few days posts > started > being refused: > > You have tried posting to gmane.comp.python.general, which is a > unidirectional > mailing list. Gmane can therefore not send this message to that > mailing list. > > Was this a change made by the mailing list admins? > > If so, is it permanent? > > [Trying to send a plaintext e-mail via Gmail, but not sure if it's working.] Oh this is unhappy news. Because i also using Gmane with gmane.emacs.help and gmane.linux.debian.user. Only i use Usenet (eternal september) with comp.lang.python. Sincerely, Byung-Hee -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 2021-09-27, Ned Deily wrote: > I have been in touch with the administrator of gmane. It appears that > posting from python-list to gmane has been deliberately disabled, at > least temporarily, with cause. I'll see if we can resolve the problem. Thanks. Though I've figured out a solution that allows me to read the list via gmane using slrn and post "directly" via e-mail, I'm sure other gmane users will appreciate that. -- Grant -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 9/26/21 20:38, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman wrote: On 9/26/21 10:34 AM, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman wrote: I am unaware of a change in the newsgroup <--> mailing list policy, and other newsgroup posts were coming through last week (it's been a light weekend). We're not talking about the usenet<-->list gateway. My first _guess_ would be that Mailman started refusing emailed posts from the gmane server to python-list, and that triggered the gmane server to stop accepting posts for python-list. I readily admit I may not understand, or know, all the usenet jargon, Once again, there is no Usenet involved. Gmane.io is an NNTP server, and NNTP is _also_ used by Usenet servers, but Gmane isn't part of Usenet and doesn't implement any of the Usenet peering "news" protocols. but looking at the Mailman server for Python list I see it is still fully configured to talk with News.FU-Berlin.DE, newsgroup comp.lang.python. This has nothing to do with Usenet servers or their connections to python-list. From the list's POV, gmane.io is a "normal" email subscriber who just happens to archive all the articles it receives. I should never have mentioned that gmane.io does NNTP -- it just seems to have confused everybody. When a gmane.io user submits a post, the post arrives at python-list by normal email channels having been sent via SMTP by the gmane.io server "From:" the user (who, IIRC, has to be subscribed to the list). I have been in touch with the administrator of gmane. It appears that posting from python-list to gmane has been deliberately disabled, at least temporarily, with cause. I'll see if we can resolve the problem. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Subject: Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 2021-09-26 at 17:40:18 -0700, Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2021-09-26, Mats Wichmann wrote: > > On 9/26/21 10:38, 2qdxy4rzwzuui...@potatochowder.com wrote: > >> On 2021-09-26 at 11:21:08 -0500, > > > >> No. I use mbsync (formerly isync) to synchronize my gmail account with > >> a local maildir folder, and while mbsync does send the app password > >> (over TLS) to google every few minutes, it doesn't need the second > >> factor. Or at least it hasn't so far (it's been a couple of years). I > >> do get periodic nags from google because I'm using a "less secure" > >> method than their web page to access my mail, but I ignore them. > > Are you using an app-specific password? Yes. It was a hoop, but not a big one. No, wait, I mean it wasn't a small, flaming, poison spiked hoop; i.e., it was fairly simple to jump through. > > Just be aware, because It's Google, this will change again at some > > point and you'll lose access. > > Of course. That's half the fun of using Google's services. ;) If it changes, I'll just forward incoming mail to my main (non-google) account and not look back. If I didn't need the account to access the google store on my android phone, I'd would have abandoned it long ago. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 2021-09-27, Grant Edwards wrote: >>From the list's POV, gmane.io is a "normal" email subscriber who just > happens to archive all the articles it receives. I should never have > mentioned that gmane.io does NNTP -- it just seems to have confused > everybody. Did SMTP.send_message() add that '>' escape when it saw a 'From' at the beginning of the line? -- Grant -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Subject: Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 2021-09-26, Mats Wichmann wrote: > On 9/26/21 10:38, 2qdxy4rzwzuui...@potatochowder.com wrote: >> On 2021-09-26 at 11:21:08 -0500, > >> No. I use mbsync (formerly isync) to synchronize my gmail account with >> a local maildir folder, and while mbsync does send the app password >> (over TLS) to google every few minutes, it doesn't need the second >> factor. Or at least it hasn't so far (it's been a couple of years). I >> do get periodic nags from google because I'm using a "less secure" >> method than their web page to access my mail, but I ignore them. Are you using an app-specific password? > Just be aware, because It's Google, this will change again at some point > and you'll lose access. Of course. That's half the fun of using Google's services. ;) -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman wrote: > On 9/26/21 10:34 AM, Grant Edwards wrote: > > On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman wrote: > >>> I am unaware of a change in the newsgroup <--> mailing list policy, >>> and other newsgroup posts were coming through last week (it's been a >>> light weekend). >> >> We're not talking about the usenet<-->list gateway. > >> My first _guess_ would be that Mailman started refusing emailed posts >> from the gmane server to python-list, and that triggered the gmane server >> to stop accepting posts for python-list. > > I readily admit I may not understand, or know, all the usenet > jargon, Once again, there is no Usenet involved. Gmane.io is an NNTP server, and NNTP is _also_ used by Usenet servers, but Gmane isn't part of Usenet and doesn't implement any of the Usenet peering "news" protocols. > but looking at the Mailman server for Python list I see it is still > fully configured to talk with News.FU-Berlin.DE, newsgroup > comp.lang.python. This has nothing to do with Usenet servers or their connections to python-list. >From the list's POV, gmane.io is a "normal" email subscriber who just happens to archive all the articles it receives. I should never have mentioned that gmane.io does NNTP -- it just seems to have confused everybody. When a gmane.io user submits a post, the post arrives at python-list by normal email channels having been sent via SMTP by the gmane.io server "From:" the user (who, IIRC, has to be subscribed to the list). -- Grant -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 2021-09-26, Grant Edwards wrote: > >> 2 Every message from the OP in this 'thread' (not others) has broken the >> thread, which indicates a wider problem/change. > > And I apologize for that. It's because I'm reading the list using an > NNTP client (slrn) connected to an NNTP server at gmane.io and then > posting via e-mail. Doing that doesn't include the correct References > header. Posting via gmane stopped working a few days ago (after > having worked for 20 years). I'm working on a solution so that slrn > can read using NNTP and post using email (including the proper > headers), but it's going to take a few days. It was easier than I thought. It only took about a half hour to write my own 'inews' utility that I can tell slrn to use for posting articles. It looks at the article and decides based on the destination whether to use NNTP or SMTP to send it (and then sends it using the appropriate protocol). It's a total of 50 lines of Python (including logging stuff to syslog). This is my first "real" post using it, so hopefully this shows up with proper headers. -- Grant -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Subject: Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 9/26/21 10:38, 2qdxy4rzwzuui...@potatochowder.com wrote: On 2021-09-26 at 11:21:08 -0500, No. I use mbsync (formerly isync) to synchronize my gmail account with a local maildir folder, and while mbsync does send the app password (over TLS) to google every few minutes, it doesn't need the second factor. Or at least it hasn't so far (it's been a couple of years). I do get periodic nags from google because I'm using a "less secure" method than their web page to access my mail, but I ignore them. Just be aware, because It's Google, this will change again at some point and you'll lose access. I had a working setup that started triggering the less-secure warnings, but was able to ignore it after setting the account to allow such "insecure" access (several times, because it kept "forgetting" that setting, probably quite intentionally). And then after a while, there was no way around it, and now if my infrequently used setup gets triggered to sync with gmail I get "critical security alert" messages and nothing goes through. And it's unchangeable. I'm going to have to go clean it out, just been too lazy to do so. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 9/26/21 10:34 AM, Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman wrote: >> I am unaware of a change in the newsgroup <--> mailing list policy, >> and other newsgroup posts were coming through last week (it's been a >> light weekend). > > We're not talking about the usenet<-->list gateway. > My first _guess_ would be that Mailman started refusing emailed posts > from the gmane server to python-list, and that triggered the gmane server > to stop accepting posts for python-list. I readily admit I may not understand, or know, all the usenet jargon, but looking at the Mailman server for Python list I see it is still fully configured to talk with News.FU-Berlin.DE, newsgroup comp.lang.python. I'll forward the problem to the maintainers -- hopefully they'll have some insight. -- ~Ethan~ -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 2021-09-26, dn via Python-list wrote: > On 27/09/2021 06.34, Grant Edwards wrote: >> On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman wrote: >>> On 9/26/21 9:21 AM, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2021-09-26, Chris Angelico wrote: >>> > I'm not sure whether the policy change happened on python-list, > or at gmane. From the look of the error message you got, it may > have actually been gmane's decision. Haven't heard anything from > the list admins here about it, either way, so I have no idea. > ... > >> My first _guess_ would be that Mailman started refusing emailed >> posts from the gmane server to python-list, and that triggered the >> gmane server to stop accepting posts for python-list. >> > > > 1 Google are not the most reliable when it comes to maintaining > policy/services, nor for advising their decision to make changes. CI/CD > breakage doesn't 'count' when you're big-enough not to care... I'm not really sure what Google has to do with it other than me wanting to post using my GMail address, since that's the one that everybody knows. I could be using any other e-mail address, and it wouldn't make any difference. > 2 Every message from the OP in this 'thread' (not others) has broken the > thread, which indicates a wider problem/change. And I apologize for that. It's because I'm reading the list using an NNTP client (slrn) connected to an NNTP server at gmane.io and then posting via e-mail. Doing that doesn't include the correct References header. Posting via gmane stopped working a few days ago (after having worked for 20 years). I'm working on a solution so that slrn can read using NNTP and post using email (including the proper headers), but it's going to take a few days. In the meanwhile, I'll try to manually insert the proper References: header when I post. > I'm ignorant of such things. Why not subscribe directly to this list > with your dedicated/public-facing gmail address? I find that following mailing lists using a news reader is far, far more efficient than using an e-mail program. Efficiently sifting through thousands and thousands of posts in dozens of groups/lists is want newsreaders are designed to do, and they're very good at it. One of the big advantages of slrn is that I can create a "score file" so I always see things I want to see, and not see things I don't want to see. I can also search through decades of articles almost instantly without having to have any of them stored locally. -- Grant -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 27/09/2021 06.34, Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman wrote: >> On 9/26/21 9:21 AM, Grant Edwards wrote: >>> On 2021-09-26, Chris Angelico wrote: >> I'm not sure whether the policy change happened on python-list, or at gmane. From the look of the error message you got, it may have actually been gmane's decision. Haven't heard anything from the list admins here about it, either way, so I have no idea. ... > My first _guess_ would be that Mailman started refusing emailed posts > from the gmane server to python-list, and that triggered the gmane server > to stop accepting posts for python-list. > 1 Google are not the most reliable when it comes to maintaining policy/services, nor for advising their decision to make changes. CI/CD breakage doesn't 'count' when you're big-enough not to care... 2 Every message from the OP in this 'thread' (not others) has broken the thread, which indicates a wider problem/change. I'm ignorant of such things. Why not subscribe directly to this list with your dedicated/public-facing gmail address? (if the concern relates to having too many email addresses 'open to the world', is Google the best 'gatekeeper' and privacy guard?) -- Regards, =dn -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 2021-09-26, Ethan Furman wrote: > On 9/26/21 9:21 AM, Grant Edwards wrote: > > On 2021-09-26, Chris Angelico wrote: > > >> I'm not sure whether the policy change happened on python-list, or at > >> gmane. From the look of the error message you got, it may have > >> actually been gmane's decision. Haven't heard anything from the list > >> admins here about it, either way, so I have no idea. > > > > I'm just guessing, but I can't imagine that gmane's owner would have > > done that unless python-list itself started to refuse posts (or the > > python-list admins requested that gmane stop sending posts). > > I am unaware of a change in the newsgroup <--> mailing list policy, > and other newsgroup posts were coming through last week (it's been a > light weekend). We're not talking about the usenet<-->list gateway. Gmane.io is a server that subscribes to and archives many thousands of email lists. It provides NNTP access to that archive. It submits postings made by NNTP clients via e-mail. It stopped allowing posting a few days ago for python-list. At least one other gmane user has also reported being no longer able to post to python-list. Posting to other lists via gmane still works fine. My first _guess_ would be that Mailman started refusing emailed posts from the gmane server to python-list, and that triggered the gmane server to stop accepting posts for python-list. -- Grant -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Subject: Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 9/26/21 9:21 AM, Grant Edwards wrote: > On 2021-09-26, Chris Angelico wrote: >> I'm not sure whether the policy change happened on python-list, or at >> gmane. From the look of the error message you got, it may have >> actually been gmane's decision. Haven't heard anything from the list >> admins here about it, either way, so I have no idea. > > I'm just guessing, but I can't imagine that gmane's owner would have > done that unless python-list itself started to refuse posts (or the > python-list admins requested that gmane stop sending posts). I am unaware of a change in the newsgroup <--> mailing list policy, and other newsgroup posts were coming through last week (it's been a light weekend). -- ~Ethan~ -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Subject: Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 2021-09-26 at 11:21:08 -0500, Grant Edwards wrote: > [...] Do you need the 2nd factor every time you connect to GMail via a > browser or Android Gmail app? Or just the first time for each > browser/device? A bit of studying seems to be in order no matter > what. :) No. I use mbsync (formerly isync) to synchronize my gmail account with a local maildir folder, and while mbsync does send the app password (over TLS) to google every few minutes, it doesn't need the second factor. Or at least it hasn't so far (it's been a couple of years). I do get periodic nags from google because I'm using a "less secure" method than their web page to access my mail, but I ignore them. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Subject: Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 2021-09-26, Chris Angelico wrote: Thanks for the tips on registering an application for oauth2 credentials. It sounds like I should be able to do that if I practice my hoop-jumping a bit more. > (But I'd still recommend an app password. Much easier.) Yes, I really should go with the 2FA and app-password option. Do you need the 2nd factor every time you connect to GMail via a browser or Android Gmail app? Or just the first time for each browser/device? A bit of studying seems to be in order no matter what. :) I had initially thought that oauth2 was going to be the easier row to hoe, but it had a lot more roots and rocks than I thought. >> I could continue to read the list with slrn, but post using something >> like Thunderbird, but do I really want to set up a whole new MUA just >> for one mailing list? [The other 20+ mailing lists I follow are all >> happy with posts from gmane.] > > I'm not sure whether the policy change happened on python-list, or at > gmane. From the look of the error message you got, it may have > actually been gmane's decision. Haven't heard anything from the list > admins here about it, either way, so I have no idea. I'm just guessing, but I can't imagine that gmane's owner would have done that unless python-list itself started to refuse posts (or the python-list admins requested that gmane stop sending posts). -- Grant -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 1:10 AM Grant Edwards wrote: > > On 2021-09-26, Chris Angelico wrote: > > > Not sure what the significance of the "application" is - Google has > > different services for where you're using it with your own domain, but > > that shouldn't be relevant. If you want to use Gmail with mutt, you > > should be able to do that, regardless. (Or you can just use some other > > email address to post from, that would also work.) > > I have other addresses from which I could post, but I don't want them > visible on the list. > > There are three ways to use mutt (or any other IMAP/SMTP) client with > GMail. > > 1. Plain old username/password authentication: This requires you to > enable the "less secure apps" option on your Gmail account. I used > to use that, and it worked. But, it's frowned upon, and I wouldn't > be surprised if it went away soon. It requires you to either put > your password in a plaintext config file or enter it every time > your connect to Gmail. Agreed, I wouldn't recommend that. > 2. Application-specific password: Creates a unique 16-digit > application password that allows access to selected > capabilities. This requires that you have two-factor > authentication enabled on your Google account. I probably should > do that, but I haven't figured out a convenient way to do so. That would normally be the most convenient for personal usage like this. It should be possible to use a simple TOTP tool, maybe even one written in Python, like this: https://github.com/Rosuav/shed/blob/master/2fa > 3. OAUTH2: This requires that you "register an application" with > Google. That application is then issued revokable credentials. The > application uses those credentials to send an access request to > Google. The account's owner then goes to a specified URL to > autorize that access. The application is then issued revokable > access and refresh tokens. The access token allows access to > specific APIs for a short period of time (maybe an hour). After > the access token expires, the refresh token can be used to obtain > a new access token. This is primarily aimed at third-party tools, where the user owning the account isn't the same person as the creator of the tool. That's why there's all the extra layers. It can certainly be used in a more personal setup, but you'll probably need to do some otherwise-unnecessary work. Google in particular is a bit of a hassle for OAuth (compared to other OAuth providers), due to the wide variety of services that they provide, some of which cost money. So there are extra steps to choose which services to activate. > The "register an application" step is where I got stuck. Other mutt > users seem to have been able to go to their GMail account's cloud > services page, create a project, create/register an application, and > then download OAUTH2 credentials which they then use (via an external > utility) with programs like mutt and msmtp. > > When I tried to "register an application" it demanded support and > privacy policy URLs for my application. Those URLs had to be using > domains that had bee pre-registered with Google. The only domain where > I have a web page is at panix.com, and that domain isn't pre- > registered with Google. I don't own that domain, so I'm not going to > try to pre-register it with Google. The most important address is the redirect URL. If you set that to something on localhost, Google will know that you're building an internal-only tool, and won't require anything much for the support and privacy policy URLs (you could probably just set them to http://localhost/support and http://localhost/privacy, or maybe even leave them blank). (But I'd still recommend an app password. Much easier.) > I could continue to read the list with slrn, but post using something > like Thunderbird, but do I really want to set up a whole new MUA just > for one mailing list? [The other 20+ mailing lists I follow are all > happy with posts from gmane.] > I'm not sure whether the policy change happened on python-list, or at gmane. From the look of the error message you got, it may have actually been gmane's decision. Haven't heard anything from the list admins here about it, either way, so I have no idea. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 2021-09-26, Chris Angelico wrote: > Not sure what the significance of the "application" is - Google has > different services for where you're using it with your own domain, but > that shouldn't be relevant. If you want to use Gmail with mutt, you > should be able to do that, regardless. (Or you can just use some other > email address to post from, that would also work.) I have other addresses from which I could post, but I don't want them visible on the list. There are three ways to use mutt (or any other IMAP/SMTP) client with GMail. 1. Plain old username/password authentication: This requires you to enable the "less secure apps" option on your Gmail account. I used to use that, and it worked. But, it's frowned upon, and I wouldn't be surprised if it went away soon. It requires you to either put your password in a plaintext config file or enter it every time your connect to Gmail. 2. Application-specific password: Creates a unique 16-digit application password that allows access to selected capabilities. This requires that you have two-factor authentication enabled on your Google account. I probably should do that, but I haven't figured out a convenient way to do so. 3. OAUTH2: This requires that you "register an application" with Google. That application is then issued revokable credentials. The application uses those credentials to send an access request to Google. The account's owner then goes to a specified URL to autorize that access. The application is then issued revokable access and refresh tokens. The access token allows access to specific APIs for a short period of time (maybe an hour). After the access token expires, the refresh token can be used to obtain a new access token. The "register an application" step is where I got stuck. Other mutt users seem to have been able to go to their GMail account's cloud services page, create a project, create/register an application, and then download OAUTH2 credentials which they then use (via an external utility) with programs like mutt and msmtp. When I tried to "register an application" it demanded support and privacy policy URLs for my application. Those URLs had to be using domains that had bee pre-registered with Google. The only domain where I have a web page is at panix.com, and that domain isn't pre- registered with Google. I don't own that domain, so I'm not going to try to pre-register it with Google. I could continue to read the list with slrn, but post using something like Thunderbird, but do I really want to set up a whole new MUA just for one mailing list? [The other 20+ mailing lists I follow are all happy with posts from gmane.] -- Grant -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On Sun, Sep 26, 2021 at 11:37 PM Grant Edwards wrote: > > I've been trying to figure out how to set up mutt with oauth2 for > gmail, but have run into a wall there too: Google doesn't want to let > me create an "application" unless I have my own domain pre-registered > with Google. > > Perhaps after 20+ years participating here, it's time to call it > quits. > Not sure what the significance of the "application" is - Google has different services for where you're using it with your own domain, but that shouldn't be relevant. If you want to use Gmail with mutt, you should be able to do that, regardless. (Or you can just use some other email address to post from, that would also work.) ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
On 2021-09-25, Grant Edwards wrote: > I've been reading (and posting to) this list for many years by > pointing an NNTP client at > news://gmane.comp.python.general. Sometime in the past few days > posts started being refused: > > You have tried posting to gmane.comp.python.general, which is a > unidirectional mailing list. Gmane can therefore not send this > message to that mailing list. > > Was this a change made by the mailing list admins? > > If so, is it permanent? > > [Trying to send a plaintext e-mail via Gmail, but not sure if it's > working.] When composing plaintext, Gmail really should switch to a fixed font. I'll try writing the post in slrn (which calls emacs in mail-mode) and then inserting that file into gmail. What a colossal PITA. Another gmane user posted a reply to my message, and I see it got rejected also. Were posts from gmane causing problems? I've been trying to figure out how to set up mutt with oauth2 for gmail, but have run into a wall there too: Google doesn't want to let me create an "application" unless I have my own domain pre-registered with Google. Perhaps after 20+ years participating here, it's time to call it quits. -- Grant -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Posts from gmane no longer allowed?
I've been reading (and posting to) this list for many years by pointing an NNTP client at news://gmane.comp.python.general. Sometime in the past few days posts started being refused: You have tried posting to gmane.comp.python.general, which is a unidirectional mailing list. Gmane can therefore not send this message to that mailing list. Was this a change made by the mailing list admins? If so, is it permanent? [Trying to send a plaintext e-mail via Gmail, but not sure if it's working.] -- Grant -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list