Re: Python's popularity (a bit OT)

[Hendrik van Rooyen]

"r"  wrote:

>I think you missed my point Steven, I was in no way proud of the fact
>of my 9th place rating. It just proves my point to the small following
>of this group. And frankly makes me feel bad.

This spurt of high frequency posts is something that seems to happen
to most newcomers to the group. (I think - I have done no stats on it, but
I get the feeling...)

So maybe the advice is to settle down and enjoy using the resource,
because it is an amazing one - there are some hyper intelligent people
around.  Some of them have some experience.  Some of them even 
know a little python...

It also helps if you answer some of the newbie questions, as it crystallises
your own knowledge of the language. - that is the way to show how big your
cojones are.  Nobody believes your claims based on mere descriptions.

As you go along, you will find that this group will rarely let you get away
with talking nonsense - It has been my experience that my slightest error
or fumble has almost always been pitilessly pointed out.  I think it is 
because the volume is high, and people get irritated if they have to wade
through stuff like this post that has more to do with etiquette than python.

- Hendrik


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Re: Python's popularity

[Kevin Kelley]

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 10:38 AM, r  wrote:

>
> School time son,
> This forum is much more than a question answer session, son. Sure
> people are welcome to ask a Python related question. But this forum is
> really the main highway of Python development and future. If your a
> n00b go to the "Python forum.org", you will feel more comfy over
> there.
>
>
>From python.org (http://www.python.org/community/lists/) -

python-list:
Pretty much anything Python-related is fair game for discussion, and the
group is even fairly tolerant of off-topic digressions; there have been
entertaining discussions of topics such as floating point, good software
design, and other programming languages such as Lisp and Forth.

*Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python, not
about development of the Python interpreter itself.*

python-dev:
Note: python-dev is for work on developing Python (fixing bugs and adding
new features to Python itself); if you're having problems writing a Python
program, please post to comp.lang.python.

*python-dev is the heart of Python's development. Practically everyone with
Subversion write privileges is on python-dev, and first drafts of PEPs are
often posted here for initial review and rewriting before their more public
appearance on python-announce.*

I think you are confusing lists r.

Kevin
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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

On Dec 24, 1:19 am, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:06:35 -0800, the anonymous troll known only as "r"
> replied to Thorsten Kampe and said:
>
> > Thats "Thurstan", thank you very much! :)
>
> I think Thorsten knows how to spell his own name.
>
> --
> Steven

OK Steven, you caught me fair and square. This is my first mistake and
i will admit it. Sorry "Thorsten"
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Re: Python's popularity

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:06:35 -0800, the anonymous troll known only as "r" 
replied to Thorsten Kampe and said:

> Thats "Thurstan", thank you very much! :)


I think Thorsten knows how to spell his own name.


-- 
Steven
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Re: Python's popularity

[Pierre-Alain Dorange]

r  wrote:

> > I've already stated, and you've already proven, that it's pretty trivial
> > to ascertain my true identity, if one actually cares.  OTOH, that's
> > *not* the case with you.  Who is hiding now?
> 
> I told you, my name is Thurstan Howell III. Do you want to know my
> favorite color too?

Only if it's pythonic.

-- 
Pierre-Alain Dorange

Ce message est sous licence Creative Commons "by-nc-sa-2.0"

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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

Benjamin Kaplin wrote:
You're the one who keeps bringing up the need to spread python. For
most people, this is a forum to ask questions and have experts respond
to them. Most people who post here aren't looking for your opinion,
they want answers. If you know the answer to a question, answer it. If
not, read the answers of people who have seen it before. When you post
your opinions, you're just creating more noise.

School time son,
This forum is much more than a question answer session, son. Sure
people are welcome to ask a Python related question. But this forum is
really the main highway of Python development and future. If your a
n00b go to the "Python forum.org", you will feel more comfy over
there.

If you have no opinion(Benjamin) thats your perogitive, don't tell me
how to live my life, or what "I" should do when i visit this forum. Do
I go to any of "your" threads and start a ruckus? NO, because if i do
not like what you are saying I will just ignore it. Take an example
son!

Sure i may have went off in thread, by i have kept my thought true to
the thread subject. A troll go's from thread to thread posting off
subject insults and attacks on other posters... hmmm, i have seen some
of those kind in this thread?? Know of who i speak, Bennie?
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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

On Dec 23, 8:21 am, Thorsten Kampe  wrote:
> You don't have a single clue about neither Python nor Ruby:
> 'According to the Ruby FAQ, "If you like Perl, you will like Ruby and be
> right at home with its syntax. [...] If you like Python, you may or may
> not be put off by the huge difference in design philosophy between
> Python and Ruby/Perl."'[1]

So you read the preface to the tut and that somehow makes you more
than a R00b n00b? Come on!

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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

On Dec 23, 10:12 am, je.s.t...@hehxduhmp.org wrote:
> r  wrote:
> > You are the epitimy of an internet troll. A troll tries to hide his
> > identity. Why are you so concerned about your TRUE identity. Are the
>
> I've already stated, and you've already proven, that it's pretty trivial
> to ascertain my true identity, if one actually cares.  OTOH, that's
> *not* the case with you.  Who is hiding now?

I told you, my name is Thurstan Howell III. Do you want to know my
favorite color too?
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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

On Dec 23, 8:21 am, Thorsten Kampe  wrote:
> * r (Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:44:32 -0800 (PST))>
>
> > Steve Holden
> > > What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't
> > > survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows
> > > from those that came before it. Terms like "outright plagiarism" don't
> > > encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more
> > > interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help
> > > promote the language.
>
> > This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to
> > compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python
> > is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other
> > hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO
> > integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python [...]
>
> You don't have a single clue about neither Python nor Ruby:
> 'According to the Ruby FAQ, "If you like Perl, you will like Ruby and be
> right at home with its syntax. [...] If you like Python, you may or may
> not be put off by the huge difference in design philosophy between
> Python and Ruby/Perl."'[1]
>
> Thorsten
> [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_(programming_language)#Semantics

Thats "Thurstan", thank you very much! :)
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Re: Python's popularity

[Adrian Cherry]

r  wrote in
news:ae1bb365-7755-4c5f-8166-e704c51a7...@i20g2000prf.googlegro
ups.com: 

> 
> Oh Steve... Listen, my words are ment as a wake-up-call to
> all who still love Python, and i believe you are one of
> them. Maybe old age has slowed your hand, that's OK, Us
> "youngsters" will take the helm. And be serious, do you
> really think this group is read by "hundreds-of- thousands
> of news readers? I wish it were, but I highly doubt it. 
> 

Thus spake the artilleryman from Horsell Common!

Adrian Cherry

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Re: Python's popularity

[Benjamin Kaplan]

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 12:05 AM, r  wrote:

> On Dec 22, 10:09 pm, Ben Kaplan  wrote:
> > That's just because most of us don't say anything unless we have
> > something useful to say. We prefer to let the experts answer the
> > questions, but we read the threads so we can benefit from them.
>
> OK Ben, So you are saying
>
> 1.) do not question the gods!
> 2.) speak only when spoken to!
> 3.) do not have an opinion!
>
> Somehow this reminds me of some old and brainwashing religions, Not an
> OSS project. Just observations Ben.



You're the one who keeps bringing up the need to spread python. For most
people, this is a forum to ask questions and have experts respond to them.
Most people who post here aren't looking for your opinion, they want
answers. If you know the answer to a question, answer it. If not, read the
answers of people who have seen it before. When you post your opinions,
you're just creating more noise.

>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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Re: Python's popularity

[Thorsten Kampe]

* r (Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:44:32 -0800 (PST))> 
> Steve Holden
> > What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't
> > survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows
> > from those that came before it. Terms like "outright plagiarism" don't
> > encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more
> > interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help
> > promote the language.
> 
> This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to
> compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python
> is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other
> hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO
> integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python [...]

You don't have a single clue about neither Python nor Ruby:
'According to the Ruby FAQ, "If you like Perl, you will like Ruby and be 
right at home with its syntax. [...] If you like Python, you may or may 
not be put off by the huge difference in design philosophy between 
Python and Ruby/Perl."'[1]

Thorsten
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_(programming_language)#Semantics
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Re: Python's popularity

[Lie Ryan]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:05:22 -0800, r wrote:

> On Dec 22, 10:09 pm, Ben Kaplan  wrote:
>> That's just because most of us don't say anything unless we have
>> something useful to say. We prefer to let the experts answer the
>> questions, but we read the threads so we can benefit from them.
> 
> OK Ben, So you are saying
> 
> 1.) do not question the gods!

Hmmm... when we talk about something we don't know, only trash would come 
out of our mouth.

> 2.) speak only when spoken to!

He (Ben) does not say anything remotely like that. 

> 3.) do not have an opinion!

Again, you're adding sauce, meat, beef, and spices to his statement.

> Somehow this reminds me of some old and brainwashing religions, Not an
> OSS project. Just observations Ben.

Isn't it you that have been accused of religionizing python by many 
people in this list?

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Re: Python's popularity

[Aaron Brady]

On Dec 23, 2:33 am, "Hendrik van Rooyen"  wrote:
> "r"  wrote:
> >Now thats the kind of friendly banter this group could use. Instead of
> >people acting as if their bowel-movements smell like bakery fresh
> >cinnamon rolls!
>
> What an amazing thing to say!
>
> Doesn't yours?
>
> - Hendrik

You think your ships don't sink?
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Re: Python's popularity

[Hendrik van Rooyen]

 "r"  wrote::

> The writing is on the Wall!

Yes it is, and as always, it says :

Mene, mene, tekel epharsim.

If my protestant upbringing hasn't failed me,
it means:

Weighed, and found wanting.

- Hendrik



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Re: Python's popularity

[Hendrik van Rooyen]

"r"  wrote:

>Now thats the kind of friendly banter this group could use. Instead of
>people acting as if their bowel-movements smell like bakery fresh
>cinnamon rolls!

What an amazing thing to say!

Doesn't yours?

- Hendrik

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Re: Python's popularity

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Steve Holden a écrit :

walterbyrd wrote:
[...]>> Fooled by version numbers ?

No, but I am giving django the benefit of the doubt. The django
project told people all along that django was not to be considered
production ready before 1.0. I will accept that some people decided to
wait until 1.0 came out to do any production development. Maybe django
is only lagging because 1.0 just came out?


The Django people said no such thing. They maintained the trunk as
stable - they test so well that many people did indeed rely on the trunk
for production systems.


Indeed - my first Django app has been in production for more than 3 
years now.


(snip)



My actual CTO is a big Ruby/Rails fan, yet he settled on Python/Django
for our current 'big' project. Wonder why ?

Not knowing much about RoR: yes, I wonder why? Is it because python
has a cleaner syntax? Or what?


It's because he decided that Django was the best tool for the particular
job, making him unusually open-minded for a member of the pointy-haired
species.


Being a CTO doesn't necessarily makes you pointy-haired !-) We're a 
small shop (12 peoples), and the guy is a developper too (and yes, an 
active one).



Unlike some on this list he doesn't let his prejudices blind
him to reality.


Yes - that was the point.
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Re: Python's popularity

[Arnaud Delobelle]

s...@pobox.com writes:

>  If you look back at the Tour de France results from the 80's I
> believe Greg Lemond won it one year without ever winning a stage.

Well I think it was actually in 1990, his last win sadly.

-- 
Arnaud
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Re: Python's popularity

[Rhodri James]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 04:35:42 -, Grant Edwards  wrote:


IIRC, Python came pre-installed on my IBM Thinkpad.  However,
it wasn't anyplace the average user would stumble across it...


The suggestively named "IBMTOOLS" directory, I believe :-)

--
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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

On Dec 22, 10:09 pm, Ben Kaplan  wrote:
> That's just because most of us don't say anything unless we have  
> something useful to say. We prefer to let the experts answer the  
> questions, but we read the threads so we can benefit from them.

OK Ben, So you are saying

1.) do not question the gods!
2.) speak only when spoken to!
3.) do not have an opinion!

Somehow this reminds me of some old and brainwashing religions, Not an
OSS project. Just observations Ben.
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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

The average user thinks python is only a very large snake!
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Re: Python's popularity

[Grant Edwards]

On 2008-12-22, Joe Strout  wrote:
> Alvin ONeal wrote:
>
>> Also worthy of mention:
>> I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as
>> part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure)
>
> It's pre-installed on every Mac (both desktop and laptop), too.

IIRC, Python came pre-installed on my IBM Thinkpad.  However,
it wasn't anyplace the average user would stumble across it...

-- 
Grant

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Re: Python's popularity

[Ben Kaplan]

On Dec 22, 2008, at 9:51 PM, r  wrote:


On Dec 22, 7:34 pm, Steven D'Aprano
 wrote:

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:01:21 -0800, r wrote:

Walter,
I just look at the stats for comp.lang.python, and i am 9th place  
for

most post this month.


And about 9,000th place for useful information.

--
Steven


I think you missed my point Steven, I was in no way proud of the fact
of my 9th place rating. It just proves my point to the small following
of this group. And frankly makes me feel bad.


That's just because most of us don't say anything unless we have  
something useful to say. We prefer to let the experts answer the  
questions, but we read the threads so we can benefit from them. Steven  
was pointing out that the number of posts you made has nothing to do  
with the overall audience of this list or how much real content you  
are contributing

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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

On Dec 22, 7:34 pm, Steven D'Aprano
 wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:01:21 -0800, r wrote:
> > Walter,
> > I just look at the stats for comp.lang.python, and i am 9th place for
> > most post this month.
>
> And about 9,000th place for useful information.
>
> --
> Steven

I think you missed my point Steven, I was in no way proud of the fact
of my 9th place rating. It just proves my point to the small following
of this group. And frankly makes me feel bad.
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Re: Python's popularity

[Tommy Grav]

On Dec 22, 2008, at 5:16 PM, Joe Strout wrote:


Alvin ONeal wrote:


Also worthy of mention:
I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as
part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure)


It's pre-installed on every Mac (both desktop and laptop), too.


Mac and a lot of linux distros use python as an integral part of their
OS development, so most of these actually come with some python
pre-installed (and one should not remove it unless you want to screw
up your OS).

Cheers
  Tommy
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RE: Python's popularity

[Ellinghaus, Lance]

> > Alvin ONeal wrote:
> > > Also worthy of mention:
> > > I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as
> > > part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure)
> >
> > It's pre-installed on every Mac (both desktop and laptop), too.

> I am using a Vista HP right now that came pre-installed with Python.
> Blew my mind when i found out :). This single reason just reinforced
> my belief in Python. Now if we can get Python on every windows
> platform...

Check out IronPython. Fully supported and FUNDED by Micro$oft!

http://www.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?ProjectName=IronPython


Lance Ellinghaus


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Re: Python's popularity

[Steve Holden]

r wrote:
> [Jeff]
> but I raise the bar so that any random joker probably won't bother
> (and making the reverse mapping - knowing my real identity and then
> looking for recent net activity - is much more difficult to do)
> [/Jeff]
> 
> You are the epitimy of an internet troll. A troll tries to hide his
> identity. Why are you so concerned about your TRUE identity. Are the
> FEDS after you, maybe it's the Martians i do not know? Did they take
> into their spaceship and do things to you? Do you wear a aluminum foil
> hat. Look out for those cell towers, there mind control devices
> hahaha. Thanks for the good laugh.

Pot, meet kettle. Kettle: pot.
-- 
Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC  http://www.holdenweb.com/

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Re: Python's popularity

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:01:21 -0800, r wrote:

> Walter,
> I just look at the stats for comp.lang.python, and i am 9th place for
> most post this month.


And about 9,000th place for useful information.



-- 
Steven
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Re: Python's popularity

[Steve Holden]

walterbyrd wrote:
[...]>> Fooled by version numbers ?
> 
> No, but I am giving django the benefit of the doubt. The django
> project told people all along that django was not to be considered
> production ready before 1.0. I will accept that some people decided to
> wait until 1.0 came out to do any production development. Maybe django
> is only lagging because 1.0 just came out?
> 
The Django people said no such thing. They maintained the trunk as
stable - they test so well that many people did indeed rely on the trunk
for production systems.

They did, sensibly in my opinion, refuse to promise that the 1.0 release
would be backward-compatible with the development versions. Indeed they
frequently changed the trunk in incompatible ways while they were
working to find the best APIs, and this only affected those brave or
stupid enough to update their Django installation automatically as
checkins were made. Anyone would expect trouble doing that, and yet the
affected sites were usually easily fixed, thanks to the project's
conscientious maintenance of a list of incompatible changes.

>> My actual CTO is a big Ruby/Rails fan, yet he settled on Python/Django
>> for our current 'big' project. Wonder why ?
> 
> Not knowing much about RoR: yes, I wonder why? Is it because python
> has a cleaner syntax? Or what?

It's because he decided that Django was the best tool for the particular
job, making him unusually open-minded for a member of the pointy-haired
species. Unlike some on this list he doesn't let his prejudices blind
him to reality.

regards
 Steve
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Holden Web LLC  http://www.holdenweb.com/

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Re: Python's popularity

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2008 07:11:02 -0800, walterbyrd wrote:

> I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language

Oh, well if it's written down it must be true.



> But, I can't help but wonder how python's popularity was determined. 

Why don't you ask the people who made the claim?


-- 
Steven
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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

On Dec 22, 6:18 pm, Aaron Brady  wrote:
> Us small-minded people have hopes and dreams just like anybody else,
> Thurston.

Now thats the kind of friendly banter this group could use. Instead of
people acting as if their bowel-movements smell like bakery fresh
cinnamon rolls!
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Re: Python's popularity

[Aaron Brady]

On Dec 22, 4:07 pm, r  wrote:
> On Dec 22, 3:15 pm, je.s.t...@hehxduhmp.org wrote:
>
> > r  wrote:
> > > We see where you stand. And also see that by removing your comments
> > > from the archive in 5 days, how small your acorns really are.
>
> > Also, it is pretty hard to take such accusations seriously from someone
> > who themselves is using a generic gmail address w/o their real name
> > attached to it.  If I didn't care about using a proper NNTP client, I
> > could quite easily create some dufus account on Gmail and post through
> > that just like you did - I'm sure that'd really increase my credibility!
>
> Would you trust my words more if i used a name like "Thurstan Howell
> III" Come on, don't tell me you are that shallow. To attack my
> credibility solely based on my user name is the sport of small minded
> people. Surely you can bring more thought, and intelligence to this
> thread than that?...

Us small-minded people have hopes and dreams just like anybody else,
Thurston.
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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

[Jeff]
but I raise the bar so that any random joker probably won't bother
(and making the reverse mapping - knowing my real identity and then
looking for recent net activity - is much more difficult to do)
[/Jeff]

You are the epitimy of an internet troll. A troll tries to hide his
identity. Why are you so concerned about your TRUE identity. Are the
FEDS after you, maybe it's the Martians i do not know? Did they take
into their spaceship and do things to you? Do you wear a aluminum foil
hat. Look out for those cell towers, there mind control devices
hahaha. Thanks for the good laugh.
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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

On Dec 22, 4:14 pm, je.s.t...@hehxduhmp.org wrote:
> r  wrote:
> > Would you trust my words more if i used a name like "Thurstan Howell
> > III" Come on, don't tell me you are that shallow. To attack my
> > credibility solely based on my user name is the sport of small minded
> > people. Surely you can bring more thought, and intelligence to this
> > thread than that?...
>
> I'm just saying that there's absolutely no more credibility attached
> to some random & anonymous account than there is to someone due to
> not having X-No-Archive.  You are no more accountable for your words than
> I am.  So you might be throwing stones at my use of X-No-Archive, but
> you are living in a glass house.
>
> And for the record, the obfuscation of my email address and the use of
> X-No-Archive has a lot more to do with random people being able to
> track me via the internet than it does with believing/not believing what
> I'm saying.  If one wanted to put in some small bit of effort, it isn't
> particularly difficult to track down usenet posts authored by me from
> 15ish years ago, but I raise the bar so that any random joker probably won't
> bother (and making the reverse mapping - knowing my real identity and then
> looking for recent net activity - is much more difficult to do).

An exercise in thought...
To go a bit further, what if we could post a picture of ourselves on
the Usenet?? What would stop me from posting a picture of someone else
besides myself? NOTHING!

Do not put your trust in such weak beliefs. My name and picture mean
squat on a this medium. If you want to validate my intelligence, use
my words, not shallow assumptions. Your logic is like that fruitcake
my auntie makes every Christmas. Please put more thought into you
post.

My words are here and they will stay here, sure some may disagree with
my thoughts, but i will not be ashamed of them! Thats called having
"brass Cohones" mi hijo.
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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

On Dec 22, 4:16 pm, Joe Strout  wrote:
> Alvin ONeal wrote:
> > Also worthy of mention:
> > I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as
> > part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure)
>
> It's pre-installed on every Mac (both desktop and laptop), too.
>
> Cheers,
> - Joe

I am using a Vista HP right now that came pre-installed with Python.
Blew my mind when i found out :). This single reason just reinforced
my belief in Python. Now if we can get Python on every windows
platform...
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Re: Python's popularity

[walterbyrd]

On Dec 22, 11:50 am, Bruno Desthuilliers
 wrote:

> > When it comes to web development, it seems to me that ruby
> > (because of rails) is far more popular
>
> s/popular/hyped/

I'm not so sure. Go to dice.com, enter "ruby rails" no quotes, search
all words, job titles only - I got 86 hits, and another five hits when
I searched for "RoR."

Do the same search, but substitue "python django" for "ruby rails" and
I get 3 hits.

Doing the search for just "ruby" and I get 121 hits. Doing the search
for just "python" and I get 61 hits. Just "rails" and get 94 hits,
just "django" and I get 4 hits.

Not scientific, but there is substantial  difference.


> Fooled by version numbers ?

No, but I am giving django the benefit of the doubt. The django
project told people all along that django was not to be considered
production ready before 1.0. I will accept that some people decided to
wait until 1.0 came out to do any production development. Maybe django
is only lagging because 1.0 just came out?

> My actual CTO is a big Ruby/Rails fan, yet he settled on Python/Django
> for our current 'big' project. Wonder why ?

Not knowing much about RoR: yes, I wonder why? Is it because python
has a cleaner syntax? Or what?
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Re: Python's popularity

[Joe Strout]

Alvin ONeal wrote:


Also worthy of mention:
I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as
part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure)


It's pre-installed on every Mac (both desktop and laptop), too.

Cheers,
- Joe

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Re: Python's popularity

[ajaksu]

On Dec 22, 4:44 pm, r  wrote:
> Oh Steve... Listen, my words are ment as a wake-up-call to all who

r, can you do me a favor? Go read the archives of this newsgroup for a
month or two, then come back with some perspective. I hope that will
make your posts a little less nonsensical and annoying. My words are
'ment' as a shut-up-call, you make as much sense as jeff here:
http://www.python.org/doc/humor/#nolo-contendre

Daniel

P.S.: You think Steve 'one of those who love python'? Geez, he's the
one that made us weak in this war by sabotaging a major source of
revenue for Python! -> 
http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2006/04/python-25-licensing-change.html
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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

On Dec 22, 3:15 pm, je.s.t...@hehxduhmp.org wrote:
> r  wrote:
> > We see where you stand. And also see that by removing your comments
> > from the archive in 5 days, how small your acorns really are.
>
> Also, it is pretty hard to take such accusations seriously from someone
> who themselves is using a generic gmail address w/o their real name
> attached to it.  If I didn't care about using a proper NNTP client, I
> could quite easily create some dufus account on Gmail and post through
> that just like you did - I'm sure that'd really increase my credibility!

Would you trust my words more if i used a name like "Thurstan Howell
III" Come on, don't tell me you are that shallow. To attack my
credibility solely based on my user name is the sport of small minded
people. Surely you can bring more thought, and intelligence to this
thread than that?...
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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

On Dec 22, 3:13 pm, je.s.t...@hehxduhmp.org wrote:
> r  wrote:
> > We see where you stand. And also see that by removing your comments
> > from the archive in 5 days, how small your acorns really are.
>
> What is "the archive", Google Groups?  You do realize that's not the
> entirety of Usenet, correct?

Absolutely, but why do you wish to remove your post. Do you not stand
behind everything you say? I do, and if a make a mistake i will
apologize for it. I have no reason to hide my words from anybody. They
will be here from now to  eternity.

This just makes your thoughts look more "drive-by-ish" to me. Thats
all.
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Re: Python's popularity

[Robert Kern]

je.s.t...@hehxduhmp.org wrote:

r  wrote:

We see where you stand. And also see that by removing your comments
from the archive in 5 days, how small your acorns really are.


What is "the archive", Google Groups?  You do realize that's not the
entirety of Usenet, correct?


It's the predominant archive of USENET, but it's not the only one that respects 
your X-No-Archive header. GMane, for example, will respect it if the list admin 
has not requested otherwise.


--
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
 that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
 an underlying truth."
  -- Umberto Eco

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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

On Dec 22, 1:50 pm, Luis M. González  wrote:
> On Dec 22, 3:44 pm, r  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Steve Holden
>
> > > What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't
> > > survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows
> > > from those that came before it. Terms like "outright plagiarism" don't
> > > encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more
> > > interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help
> > > promote the language.
>
> > This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to
> > compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python
> > is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other
> > hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO
> > integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python we must
> > consider that some people who would have found only python in this
> > niche now could go to Ruby. I am for choices, but this is out and out
> > robbery!
> > Of course we must stand on the shoulders of greater minds than our own
> > to get ahead, but using someone's knowledge against them is wrong. If
> > Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their
> > language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido
> > for his wisdom. Don't use our ideas and then bash python in the next
> > breath!
>
> > > I have an article about the Zen coming up in "Python Magazine" so I
> > > won't steal its thunder. Suffice it to say that people take the Zen far
> > > too seriously. Anyone who does so undermines their own credibility as a
> > > Python commentator. This isn't a war. Stop being childish.
>
> > I was speaking to the loyalty of Pythonista's. Of course we are not
> > really going to slay mats, come on Steve, get real!
>
> > > If all you want from a language is speed, go use C. I would avoid
> > > assembly language though, since a modern optimizing C compiler will
> > > often beat an assembly language programmer for execution speed, and the
> > > programming time will definitely be shorter. But to make speed the
> > > be-all and end-all is a witless approach. Speed is definitely not why
> > > dynamic languages' popularity is increasing. Speed *is* still relevant
> > > in certain areas, and completely irrelevant in others.
>
> > Come on Steve, i am NOT saying speed is the only thing that matters
> > here! But it is very important. I never compared Python to C, that is
> > madness. But it must be better, faster, smarter than it's direct
> > competition(ruby)... you agree??
>
> > > Much more of this kind of tripe and nobody will read what you write
> > > anyway. You will hear the plonking of a hundred thousand newsreaders
> > > every time you post.
>
> > Oh Steve... Listen, my words are ment as a wake-up-call to all who
> > still love Python, and i believe you are one of them. Maybe old age
> > has slowed your hand, that's OK, Us "youngsters" will take the helm.
> > And be serious, do you really think this group is read by "hundreds-of-
> > thousands of news readers? I wish it were, but I highly doubt it.
>
> Dude, calm down... There is no war here.
> Please turn off your computer, go take a walk for awhile, experience
> some real life in the outer world, and then think about this again.
> Python is cool language, Ruby too. We are all happy and competition is
> good.
> Nobody will win this "war" and the loser won't be annihilated. I hope
> there will be some healthy cross-pollination.
> There is actually, for example python borrowed list-comprehensions
> from haskell and I've never heard any haskell fan calling for jihad.
>
> Did you know that people are looking forward to use pypy to create a
> fast ruby implementation?
> Pypy is being developed by python developers and they will be happy to
> see a ruby, perl, logo or whatever language implemented with pypy. We
> are talking about tools, not religions.
> Those who use them to create useful, real life applications know it.
>
> Soon, we will be able to use python libraries from ruby and the other
> way around. the differences will be just a matter of taste, different
> syntax to achieve the same tasks.
>
> Luis

Your right, Python needs Ruby, and do you know why??? The same reason
MS needs, Mac & Linux. So they do not fall asleep at the wheel! This
keeps MS on there toes(although still no explanation for their piss-
poor product).

Python needs Ruby so we don't fall asleep. Ruby may be the best thing
that happened to Python. Wake Up people! The writing is on the Wall!
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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

OK je.s.t... whatever,
We see where you stand. And also see that by removing your comments
from the archive in 5 days, how small your acorns really are.

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[Luis M . González]

On Dec 22, 3:44 pm, r  wrote:
> Steve Holden
>
> > What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't
> > survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows
> > from those that came before it. Terms like "outright plagiarism" don't
> > encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more
> > interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help
> > promote the language.
>
> This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to
> compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python
> is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other
> hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO
> integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python we must
> consider that some people who would have found only python in this
> niche now could go to Ruby. I am for choices, but this is out and out
> robbery!
> Of course we must stand on the shoulders of greater minds than our own
> to get ahead, but using someone's knowledge against them is wrong. If
> Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their
> language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido
> for his wisdom. Don't use our ideas and then bash python in the next
> breath!
>
> > I have an article about the Zen coming up in "Python Magazine" so I
> > won't steal its thunder. Suffice it to say that people take the Zen far
> > too seriously. Anyone who does so undermines their own credibility as a
> > Python commentator. This isn't a war. Stop being childish.
>
> I was speaking to the loyalty of Pythonista's. Of course we are not
> really going to slay mats, come on Steve, get real!
>
> > If all you want from a language is speed, go use C. I would avoid
> > assembly language though, since a modern optimizing C compiler will
> > often beat an assembly language programmer for execution speed, and the
> > programming time will definitely be shorter. But to make speed the
> > be-all and end-all is a witless approach. Speed is definitely not why
> > dynamic languages' popularity is increasing. Speed *is* still relevant
> > in certain areas, and completely irrelevant in others.
>
> Come on Steve, i am NOT saying speed is the only thing that matters
> here! But it is very important. I never compared Python to C, that is
> madness. But it must be better, faster, smarter than it's direct
> competition(ruby)... you agree??
>
> > Much more of this kind of tripe and nobody will read what you write
> > anyway. You will hear the plonking of a hundred thousand newsreaders
> > every time you post.
>
> Oh Steve... Listen, my words are ment as a wake-up-call to all who
> still love Python, and i believe you are one of them. Maybe old age
> has slowed your hand, that's OK, Us "youngsters" will take the helm.
> And be serious, do you really think this group is read by "hundreds-of-
> thousands of news readers? I wish it were, but I highly doubt it.

Dude, calm down... There is no war here.
Please turn off your computer, go take a walk for awhile, experience
some real life in the outer world, and then think about this again.
Python is cool language, Ruby too. We are all happy and competition is
good.
Nobody will win this "war" and the loser won't be annihilated. I hope
there will be some healthy cross-pollination.
There is actually, for example python borrowed list-comprehensions
from haskell and I've never heard any haskell fan calling for jihad.

Did you know that people are looking forward to use pypy to create a
fast ruby implementation?
Pypy is being developed by python developers and they will be happy to
see a ruby, perl, logo or whatever language implemented with pypy. We
are talking about tools, not religions.
Those who use them to create useful, real life applications know it.

Soon, we will be able to use python libraries from ruby and the other
way around. the differences will be just a matter of taste, different
syntax to achieve the same tasks.

Luis
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

walterbyrd a écrit :

On Dec 22, 10:13 am, r  wrote:

Since the
advent of Ruby(Python closet competitor), Python's hold on this niche
is slipping.


About the only place I ever hear of ruby being used is web development
with RoR. When it comes to web development, it seems to me that ruby
(because of rails) is far more popular


s/popular/hyped/

But being (perhaps over ?) hyped too soon is not necessarily the best 
move...



than python. It seems to me
that ruby is the niche player, and python (with fairly new frameworks)
is trying to catch up to ruby in that niche. It seems to me that the
python web framework that best competes with rails, is Django, and
Django 1.0 just came out a few months back.


Fooled by version numbers ? Heck, Python 3.0 just came out a couple 
weeks ago, and PHP is already at 6.x !-)


FWIW, I wrote my first django app years ago (and it's still in production).



A lot of Ruby noobies don't even realize that most of
Ruby is an out-right plagiarism of Python.


I don't know who asserted such a stupid thing, but he manages to be 
equally clueless wrt/ both languages.



Maybe. But the rails framework seems to have a different philosophy
than the django, turbogears, or pylons, frameworks. RoR values
convention over configuration, and has a lot of "magic" whereas the
python frameworks seem to have the opposite philosophy - in those
regards. I see pros and cons to both approaches. I wonder what the
market with think?


My actual CTO is a big Ruby/Rails fan, yet he settled on Python/Django 
for our current 'big' project. Wonder why ?


--
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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

On Dec 22, 1:10 pm, MRAB  wrote:
> r wrote:
> > Steve Holden
> >> What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't
> >> survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows
> >> from those that came before it. Terms like "outright plagiarism" don't
> >> encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more
> >> interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help
> >> promote the language.
>
> > This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to
> > compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python
> > is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other
> > hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO
> > integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python we must
> > consider that some people who would have found only python in this
> > niche now could go to Ruby. I am for choices, but this is out and out
> > robbery!
> > Of course we must stand on the shoulders of greater minds than our own
> > to get ahead, but using someone's knowledge against them is wrong. If
> > Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their
> > language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido
> > for his wisdom. Don't use our ideas and then bash python in the next
> > breath!
>
> [snip]
> "Pythonian"? A real Pythonista would know it's "Pythonic"! A real
> Pythonista would be called "p", not "r", which sounds very Rubish(?) to
> me...

MRAB -> '%sMuchRubyAndBasic' %'Too'
MRAB -> Method.Ruby(AttractsBraindead)
MRAB -> MyRubyAintBad
MRAB -> MuchoRubyAndBasic

Pythonian is more acceptable in the context of my sentence...

""" If Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their
language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido
for his wisdom."""

Pythonian.translate() -> in the domain if Python... ownership
Pythonic.translate() -> in a python style... (way of)

two radically different meaning, of course if you vocabulary reaches
that far??


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Re: Python's popularity

[walterbyrd]

On Dec 22, 11:42 am, "Ellinghaus, Lance" 
wrote:

> Yes, Ruby has taken some of the popularity out of Python, but they are
> also hitting different markets.

Do you mean different markets within web development, or do you mean
ruby is used mostly for web-dev, while python is used for other stuff?
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Re: Python's popularity

[MRAB]

r wrote:

Steve Holden

What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't
survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows
from those that came before it. Terms like "outright plagiarism" don't
encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more
interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help
promote the language.


This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to
compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python
is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other
hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO
integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python we must
consider that some people who would have found only python in this
niche now could go to Ruby. I am for choices, but this is out and out
robbery!
Of course we must stand on the shoulders of greater minds than our own
to get ahead, but using someone's knowledge against them is wrong. If
Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their
language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido
for his wisdom. Don't use our ideas and then bash python in the next
breath!


[snip]
"Pythonian"? A real Pythonista would know it's "Pythonic"! A real 
Pythonista would be called "p", not "r", which sounds very Rubish(?) to 
me...


--
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RE: Python's popularity

[Ellinghaus, Lance]

> I just look at the stats for comp.lang.python, and i am 9th place for
> most post this month. That makes me completely sad. With just 50 post
> so far, i am showing up on the high count. Sad, very sad. Now i have
> much reason to believe that only 100 or so people follow this list :(.
> Python is slipping. We must try harder, or all of Guido's work will be
> for nothing!

Maybe most of us are doing real things with Python and not spending our
time on the list posting. (I normally do not post on here, but I felt I
had to now).

I have used Python since 0.9.x and have brought it into every
project/contract that I have worked on. The current project I am on
tried to get rid of it and move to Perl for all of my code.. All of
those people are gone and I am still here and so is Python. As a matter
of fact, Python use has grown greatly and we rely on it for so many of
our day to day operations, monitoring, data collection, etc.

Python is not going away just because people are not posting here. Wake
up!

BEA and IBM have converted all of their custom script language support
for WebLogic and WebSphere over to Jython because they felt Python
(interfacing with Java) was the best solution to their script language
issues. Everyone on the project I am on that works with WebLogic and
WebSphere are learning Python so they can work with it. So far, no real
complaints.

People are moving away from Perl to Python for much of their scripting,
but it will take a long time to complete. There is a lot of training,
re-coding, and trying to figure out what the original Perl code did
(ever try to go back and look at Perl code that is 2-3 years old!!!).

Yes, Ruby has taken some of the popularity out of Python, but they are
also hitting different markets. I have also read in a couple of magazine
articles that RoR is losing momentum. From what I have read, RoR is
great to create your first version, but if you need to maintain a large
codebase, it is not as easy as they thought it would be and the reuse
numbers are much lower than Python. But hey, what do I know Google,
Yahoo!, YouTube... I know.. tiny little tinker-toy web applications..
right?

Lance Ellinghaus



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Re: Python's popularity

[Richard Riley]

Marco Mariani  writes:

> Richard Riley wrote:
>
>> One does not have to by a language maestro to try and assess its
>> popularity. While his numbers or his reading of the numbers might be
>> open to some questions, to suggest that one needs to be totally familiar
>> with a language to determine its popularity is, frankly, ridiculous.
>
> I was not judging his competency. But when I am naive on a subject, I
> don't usually show off like that.

I do not see what is showing off about judging a languages
popularity. In many cases a languages popularity can be a useful metric
in picking a language to do a job.

> The polemic intents in his previous messages are quite clear (python
> is slow, py3k is an utter failure because it doesn't solve the
> whitespace issue, etc), and this thread is not different. It seems
> like a rehash of issues that have been dragged around here by
> generations of trolls for the last 10 years.

I find it difficult myself to accept certain criticisms of certain
things when I am close to them. This does not, however, make the
criticisms unfair or untrue or even unimportant.

>
> Sorry for adding noise to the signal :-/

-- 
 important and urgent problems of the technology of today are no longer the 
satisfactions of the primary needs or of archetypal wishes, but the reparation 
of the evils and damages by the technology of yesterday.  ~Dennis Gabor, 
Innovations:  Scientific, Technological and Social, 1970
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Re: Python's popularity

[r]

Steve Holden
> What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't
> survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows
> from those that came before it. Terms like "outright plagiarism" don't
> encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more
> interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help
> promote the language.

This is a war Steve, and i will explain why. Python does not need to
compete with perl, lisp, C, basic, etc, etc. WHY, well because python
is SO radically different than those languages. Ruby on the other
hand, took most from python, the only difference is Ruby's full OO
integration.(12.method()). Since Ruby is so similar to python we must
consider that some people who would have found only python in this
niche now could go to Ruby. I am for choices, but this is out and out
robbery!
Of course we must stand on the shoulders of greater minds than our own
to get ahead, but using someone's knowledge against them is wrong. If
Ruby want's to incorporate so many Pythonian ideas into their
language, at least put a note in the tutorial giving credit to Guido
for his wisdom. Don't use our ideas and then bash python in the next
breath!

> I have an article about the Zen coming up in "Python Magazine" so I
> won't steal its thunder. Suffice it to say that people take the Zen far
> too seriously. Anyone who does so undermines their own credibility as a
> Python commentator. This isn't a war. Stop being childish.

I was speaking to the loyalty of Pythonista's. Of course we are not
really going to slay mats, come on Steve, get real!

> If all you want from a language is speed, go use C. I would avoid
> assembly language though, since a modern optimizing C compiler will
> often beat an assembly language programmer for execution speed, and the
> programming time will definitely be shorter. But to make speed the
> be-all and end-all is a witless approach. Speed is definitely not why
> dynamic languages' popularity is increasing. Speed *is* still relevant
> in certain areas, and completely irrelevant in others.

Come on Steve, i am NOT saying speed is the only thing that matters
here! But it is very important. I never compared Python to C, that is
madness. But it must be better, faster, smarter than it's direct
competition(ruby)... you agree??

> Much more of this kind of tripe and nobody will read what you write
> anyway. You will hear the plonking of a hundred thousand newsreaders
> every time you post.

Oh Steve... Listen, my words are ment as a wake-up-call to all who
still love Python, and i believe you are one of them. Maybe old age
has slowed your hand, that's OK, Us "youngsters" will take the helm.
And be serious, do you really think this group is read by "hundreds-of-
thousands of news readers? I wish it were, but I highly doubt it.


--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[Krishnakant]

hello hackers.
Python is best at high level calculations and as an indication, Please
note that I am leading a team on developing an accounting software which
will be modular and would suit the economic conditions of developed and
almost developed countries like India.
I find that number crunching and heavy calculations is shear programming
bliss in python.
At the front end we are using pygtk and find it very light and zippy.
And we are going to use twisted for middle layer and reportlab for
reporting.
And the development so far is pritty smooth and our programmres who
learned python for the first time are just amaised about the fact that
how easily python can do a certain thing.
So i don't know what others think but python is not just a good
scripting language (not that being a good scripting language is some
thing bad ) but also a complete enterprise ready language with given
frameworks like twisted.
happy hacking.
Krishnakant.
On Mon, 2008-12-22 at 12:59 -0500, Tommy Grav wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2008, at 12:48 PM, walterbyrd wrote:
> >> Now since Python *is not* the only language on it's block, we have to
> >> compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival
> >
> > I think both python and ruby will "survive." I think python is also
> > competing with perl in the sysadmin space - although I see perl as
> > being much more popular there.
> 
> Python is making great headway in the physical sciences. Especially
> in astronomy Python has become a real player as not only a tool for
> quick and dirty calculations, but more serious number crunching using
> the great numpy and scipy libraries. With Cython, I, think it will  
> even start
> taking over some of the speed critical niche from C and Fortran.
> 
> Cheers
>Tommy
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[Francesco Guerrieri]

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 7:01 PM, r  wrote:

> Walter,
> I just look at the stats for comp.lang.python, and i am 9th place for
> most post this month. That makes me completely sad. With just 50 post
> so far, i am showing up on the high count. Sad, very sad. Now i have
> much reason to believe that only 100 or so people follow this list :(.
> Python is slipping. We must try harder, or all of Guido's work will be
> for nothing!



Just wanted to remember you that Python is an open source project initiated
and led by Guido Van Rossum and kept alive
(and in good health) by the work of *many* people. It if were only Guido's
work it would be different from what it is now.

Furthermore, choosing to code in a language or in another is not a matter of
religion or of war. If someone likes Ruby, or Perl, or VBA...
 and is productive (according to her needs) with it, why in the world should
a Python programmer consider her an "enemy"???

Francesco
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[r]

Walter,
I just look at the stats for comp.lang.python, and i am 9th place for
most post this month. That makes me completely sad. With just 50 post
so far, i am showing up on the high count. Sad, very sad. Now i have
much reason to believe that only 100 or so people follow this list :(.
Python is slipping. We must try harder, or all of Guido's work will be
for nothing!

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[Tommy Grav]

On Dec 22, 2008, at 12:48 PM, walterbyrd wrote:

Now since Python *is not* the only language on it's block, we have to
compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival


I think both python and ruby will "survive." I think python is also
competing with perl in the sysadmin space - although I see perl as
being much more popular there.


Python is making great headway in the physical sciences. Especially
in astronomy Python has become a real player as not only a tool for
quick and dirty calculations, but more serious number crunching using
the great numpy and scipy libraries. With Cython, I, think it will  
even start

taking over some of the speed critical niche from C and Fortran.

Cheers
  Tommy
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[Steve Holden]

r wrote:
> I think when Python was first brought to this dark world by a genius
> named Guido van Rossum, it had complete dominance in it's niche,
> actually Python created a niche where none existed before. Since the
> advent of Ruby(Python closet competitor), Python's hold on this niche
> is slipping. A lot of Ruby noobies don't even realize that most of
> Ruby is an out-right plagiarism of Python. But I guess that's OK,
> because Python has borrowed from other languages itself.. just not in
> such a -sell your soul- kind of way as Ruby!.
> 
> Now since Python *is not* the only language on it's block, we have to
> compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival(I wonder if mats
> would have been so revolutionary to introduce indention if Guido had
> not done it first??, it seems to me he is a braces fanboy ;)
> 
What makes you assume this is a zero-sum game, and that Python won't
survive if any other language becomes popular. Every language borrows
from those that came before it. Terms like "outright plagiarism" don't
encourage rational debate, and make you seem like a troll who is more
interested in stirring up controversy than actually doing things to help
promote the language.

> Now more than ever we must stick to the Zen and clean up Python's
> warts to keep the dream alive and regain our right full crown. Python
> is better than Ruby, I have no doubt in my mind, but if we let ruby
> become -faster- than Python, people will gravitate away from Python.
> Speed IS important even in high level languages. We must never forget
> that! The war is not over just because we have Google, Nasa, and ILM.
> On the Contrary, it has just begun. I believe mats is not going to
> accept Ruby as 2nd best to Python, he will wage war on Pythonia. And
> if we fail to preempt this attack, we shall be like the burning ships
> of pearl harbor! Maybe Guido has a secret weapon up his sleeve(big
> boy), but 3.0 was defiantly not the bomb!
> 
I have an article about the Zen coming up in "Python Magazine" so I
won't steal its thunder. Suffice it to say that people take the Zen far
too seriously. Anyone who does so undermines their own credibility as a
Python commentator. This isn't a war. Stop being childish.

> Mats will now take advantage of the weaknesses in Py3000 and run with
> them. Whispering in everyones ear how much faster Ruby is to Python.
> And weather you like to hear it or not, this ROR thing is exploding,
> we must counter attack this vile disgrace to Pythonia. Do not sit back
> and say "well we are the best and we don't need to try any harder".
> For you will be left in the evolutionary dust of Ruby. And next year,
> left wanting...
> 
If all you want from a language is speed, go use C. I would avoid
assembly language though, since a modern optimizing C compiler will
often beat an assembly language programmer for execution speed, and the
programming time will definitely be shorter. But to make speed the
be-all and end-all is a witless approach. Speed is definitely not why
dynamic languages' popularity is increasing. Speed *is* still relevant
in certain areas, and completely irrelevant in others.

> We need to sound the battle cries and gather the legions. Then we
> shall march across Rubonia and *raise* their cities to the ground. We
> shall encompass thy house O' Ruby -- and lay waste to it! After we
> slay thee, we shall breed with thy women and convert thy children. We
> shall rule with an iron fist!, crushing all resistance to Python's
> absolute power. Like the great kings of olde, monuments will be
> erected so all generations shall be witness of our power, and glory.
> """ O' Python, for the sound of thy chariots will be so fear full no
> army could stand against thee!""" We shall avenge the atrocities and
> hypocrocies you have brought upon this world Ruby! And then you shall
> know that we are the Lord of this world, when our vengeance is cast
> upon you!
> 
> I will be monitoring comp.lang.python and over the next 6 months I
> will conduct a census of the users of this group. So far I have only
> seen maybe 20 regulars here. I had hoped they numbered several
> thousand, but i am starting to think more in the hundreds or even
> less :(. I will post my findings to this group. It shall be a wake up
> call for those of you who think the war is over. Get off your bums you
> lazy-coach-potatos, the fight is not over yet. Do not let your eye's
> become "wide shut"!!!
> 
> Truth shall be the judge...

Much more of this kind of tripe and nobody will read what you write
anyway. You will hear the plonking of a hundred thousand newsreaders
every time you post.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC  http://www.holdenweb.com/

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[walterbyrd]

On Dec 22, 10:13 am, r  wrote:
> Since the
> advent of Ruby(Python closet competitor), Python's hold on this niche
> is slipping.

About the only place I ever hear of ruby being used is web development
with RoR. When it comes to web development, it seems to me that ruby
(because of rails) is far more popular than python. It seems to me
that ruby is the niche player, and python (with fairly new frameworks)
is trying to catch up to ruby in that niche. It seems to me that the
python web framework that best competes with rails, is Django, and
Django 1.0 just came out a few months back.

> A lot of Ruby noobies don't even realize that most of
> Ruby is an out-right plagiarism of Python.

Maybe. But the rails framework seems to have a different philosophy
than the django, turbogears, or pylons, frameworks. RoR values
convention over configuration, and has a lot of "magic" whereas the
python frameworks seem to have the opposite philosophy - in those
regards. I see pros and cons to both approaches. I wonder what the
market with think?

> Now since Python *is not* the only language on it's block, we have to
> compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival

I think both python and ruby will "survive." I think python is also
competing with perl in the sysadmin space - although I see perl as
being much more popular there.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[r]

I think when Python was first brought to this dark world by a genius
named Guido van Rossum, it had complete dominance in it's niche,
actually Python created a niche where none existed before. Since the
advent of Ruby(Python closet competitor), Python's hold on this niche
is slipping. A lot of Ruby noobies don't even realize that most of
Ruby is an out-right plagiarism of Python. But I guess that's OK,
because Python has borrowed from other languages itself.. just not in
such a -sell your soul- kind of way as Ruby!.

Now since Python *is not* the only language on it's block, we have to
compete with our main nemesis(Ruby) for survival(I wonder if mats
would have been so revolutionary to introduce indention if Guido had
not done it first??, it seems to me he is a braces fanboy ;)

Now more than ever we must stick to the Zen and clean up Python's
warts to keep the dream alive and regain our right full crown. Python
is better than Ruby, I have no doubt in my mind, but if we let ruby
become -faster- than Python, people will gravitate away from Python.
Speed IS important even in high level languages. We must never forget
that! The war is not over just because we have Google, Nasa, and ILM.
On the Contrary, it has just begun. I believe mats is not going to
accept Ruby as 2nd best to Python, he will wage war on Pythonia. And
if we fail to preempt this attack, we shall be like the burning ships
of pearl harbor! Maybe Guido has a secret weapon up his sleeve(big
boy), but 3.0 was defiantly not the bomb!

Mats will now take advantage of the weaknesses in Py3000 and run with
them. Whispering in everyones ear how much faster Ruby is to Python.
And weather you like to hear it or not, this ROR thing is exploding,
we must counter attack this vile disgrace to Pythonia. Do not sit back
and say "well we are the best and we don't need to try any harder".
For you will be left in the evolutionary dust of Ruby. And next year,
left wanting...

We need to sound the battle cries and gather the legions. Then we
shall march across Rubonia and *raise* their cities to the ground. We
shall encompass thy house O' Ruby -- and lay waste to it! After we
slay thee, we shall breed with thy women and convert thy children. We
shall rule with an iron fist!, crushing all resistance to Python's
absolute power. Like the great kings of olde, monuments will be
erected so all generations shall be witness of our power, and glory.
""" O' Python, for the sound of thy chariots will be so fear full no
army could stand against thee!""" We shall avenge the atrocities and
hypocrocies you have brought upon this world Ruby! And then you shall
know that we are the Lord of this world, when our vengeance is cast
upon you!

I will be monitoring comp.lang.python and over the next 6 months I
will conduct a census of the users of this group. So far I have only
seen maybe 20 regulars here. I had hoped they numbered several
thousand, but i am starting to think more in the hundreds or even
less :(. I will post my findings to this group. It shall be a wake up
call for those of you who think the war is over. Get off your bums you
lazy-coach-potatos, the fight is not over yet. Do not let your eye's
become "wide shut"!!!

Truth shall be the judge...
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[Marco Mariani]

Richard Riley wrote:


One does not have to by a language maestro to try and assess its
popularity. While his numbers or his reading of the numbers might be
open to some questions, to suggest that one needs to be totally familiar
with a language to determine its popularity is, frankly, ridiculous.


I was not judging his competency. But when I am naive on a subject, I 
don't usually show off like that.
The polemic intents in his previous messages are quite clear (python is 
slow, py3k is an utter failure because it doesn't solve the whitespace 
issue, etc), and this thread is not different. It seems like a rehash of 
issues that have been dragged around here by generations of trolls for 
the last 10 years.


Sorry for adding noise to the signal :-/
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[Steve Holden]

walterbyrd wrote:
> I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language, and
> that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it.
[rest of stuff adequately answered by other posters]

The "Python has surpassed Perl" myth came from one month's results on
the TIOBE index, which does not claim to use a scientifically
justifiable methodology.

Python *is* becoming very popular. Training demand is certainly going
up. It's a great language for people whose primary career isn't
programming but who need to do some programming - for example, there are
about 40 scientists and engineers supporting the Mars Lander project
using Python code, because it's a great way to put systems together that
other engineers can understand.

I try to discourage people from getting into language pissing contests,
because they are rarely productive. The short answer is that nobody
really knows how popular the various languages are, there are simply
estimates with higher or lower credibility.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden+1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC  http://www.holdenweb.com/

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[Luis M . González]

On Dec 22, 12:11 pm, walterbyrd  wrote:
> I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language, and
> that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it.
>
> From what I have seen:
>
> - in unix/linux sysadmin, perl is far more popular than python,
> windows sysadmins typically don't use either.
> - in web-development, php is far more popular than python - it's not
> even close.
> - when I did a search on dice, I found over 20X more jobs advertised
> for ruby on rails developers, than for python dango developers.
> - application development is dominated by java, c/c++, and maybe a
> little visual basic.
> - as I understand it, fortran is still the most popular language for
> numberical programming.
>
> Of course, these are just observations on my part, nothing scientific
> about it. But, I can't help but wonder how python's popularity was
> determined. I suspect that a lot of people use python as a secondary
> skill. For example, I use ms-word, but I'm not an ms-word
> professional.
>
> Please note: I am not confusing popularity with quality. I am not
> saying that php is better for web-dev, or anything like that. I am
> just wondering how python is rated as being so popular, when python
> does not seem to dominate anything.


Sooner or later, we will remember those good old days where python was
our "secret sauce"...
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[Richard Riley]

Marco Mariani  writes:

> walterbyrd wrote:
>
>> I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language, and
>> that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it.
>
>
> In 20 days, you've gone from trying to import a module by using:
>
>> load "test.py"
>
>
> to questioning the popularity of python.
>
> You have many other subject you want to enlighten us about, I suppose?
> Cause I wonder what you'll come up with, next.
>

One does not have to by a language maestro to try and assess its
popularity. While his numbers or his reading of the numbers might be
open to some questions, to suggest that one needs to be totally familiar
with a language to determine its popularity is, frankly, ridiculous.

-- 
 important and urgent problems of the technology of today are no longer the 
satisfactions of the primary needs or of archetypal wishes, but the reparation 
of the evils and damages by the technology of yesterday.  ~Dennis Gabor, 
Innovations:  Scientific, Technological and Social, 1970
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[Alvin ONeal]

I decided to start learning python for 2 reasons:
#A The white-space is wonderful - you can't code unreadable code.
#B I noticed that just about every application I use has extensions
written in python.

Although it isn't as "cool" as ruby, it certainly has been in widespread
use longer.

I think that job postings inflate apparant popularity. For example if you
look up jobs for "Flex developers", you'll see a lot of posts. There are a
lot of people that hear the buzz and they think that they want a programmer
with that skill, but in reality what they should be looking for is a java
dev
who is willing to learn flex because there just aren't that many poeple that
know flex yet). I imagine the same is true of ruby.

Also worthy of mention:
I've seen python pre-installed on consumer HP desktops (I think as
part of a backup/restore script, but I'm not sure)

I would believe that python is in the top 5 for sure.

AJ ONeal
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[skip]

Walter> From what I have seen:

Walter> - in unix/linux sysadmin, perl is far more popular than python,
Walter> windows sysadmins typically don't use either.
Walter> - in web-development, php is far more popular than python - it's not
Walter> even close.
Walter> - when I did a search on dice, I found over 20X more jobs advertised
Walter> for ruby on rails developers, than for python dango developers.
Walter> - application development is dominated by java, c/c++, and maybe a
Walter> little visual basic.
Walter> - as I understand it, fortran is still the most popular language for
Walter> numberical programming.

Looking at specific application domains doesn't tell the entire story.  If
you look back at the Tour de France results from the 80's I believe Greg
Lemond won it one year without ever winning a stage.  What you are reporting
is akin to that.  Fortran is almost certainly the king of numerical
programming, but Python might be #2 or #3 there (behind Matlab).  I'm pretty
sure it dwarfs Perl, PHP and Ruby in that domain.  In web development, while
PHP is more popular than Python, Python is probably much more popular than
Perl and Tcl.  Maybe not ahead of Ruby due to RoR.  etc etc.

Skip
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[Marco Mariani]

walterbyrd wrote:


I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language, and
that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it.



In 20 days, you've gone from trying to import a module by using:

> load "test.py"


to questioning the popularity of python.

You have many other subject you want to enlighten us about, I suppose?
Cause I wonder what you'll come up with, next.

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python's popularity

[Kevin Kelley]

Python has it's place, usually getting things done, rather than being
flashy.

For example, while Java is still the "Enterprise King", both the leading
application servers (Weblogic and Websphere) adopted Jython as their
internal scripting language last year (or was it 2006?).

It's used heavily for internal game scripting (Eve Online uses it very
heavily (specifically Stackless), as does BF 2142).

I don't know if in fact Python is the 3rd most popular language, but I would
not be surprised by it passing up other high level scripting languages like
Perl and Ruby.

Kevin

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 9:11 AM, walterbyrd  wrote:

> I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language, and
> that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it.
>
> >From what I have seen:
>
> - in unix/linux sysadmin, perl is far more popular than python,
> windows sysadmins typically don't use either.
> - in web-development, php is far more popular than python - it's not
> even close.
> - when I did a search on dice, I found over 20X more jobs advertised
> for ruby on rails developers, than for python dango developers.
> - application development is dominated by java, c/c++, and maybe a
> little visual basic.
> - as I understand it, fortran is still the most popular language for
> numberical programming.
>
> Of course, these are just observations on my part, nothing scientific
> about it. But, I can't help but wonder how python's popularity was
> determined. I suspect that a lot of people use python as a secondary
> skill. For example, I use ms-word, but I'm not an ms-word
> professional.
>
> Please note: I am not confusing popularity with quality. I am not
> saying that php is better for web-dev, or anything like that. I am
> just wondering how python is rated as being so popular, when python
> does not seem to dominate anything.
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Python's popularity

[walterbyrd]

I have read that python is the world's 3rd most popular language, and
that python has surpassed perl in popularity, but I am not seeing it.

>From what I have seen:

- in unix/linux sysadmin, perl is far more popular than python,
windows sysadmins typically don't use either.
- in web-development, php is far more popular than python - it's not
even close.
- when I did a search on dice, I found over 20X more jobs advertised
for ruby on rails developers, than for python dango developers.
- application development is dominated by java, c/c++, and maybe a
little visual basic.
- as I understand it, fortran is still the most popular language for
numberical programming.

Of course, these are just observations on my part, nothing scientific
about it. But, I can't help but wonder how python's popularity was
determined. I suspect that a lot of people use python as a secondary
skill. For example, I use ms-word, but I'm not an ms-word
professional.

Please note: I am not confusing popularity with quality. I am not
saying that php is better for web-dev, or anything like that. I am
just wondering how python is rated as being so popular, when python
does not seem to dominate anything.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list