Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 6/11/12 23:50:59, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 17:16:44 +, Prasad, Ramit wrote: To enter the newline, I typed Ctrl-Q to tell bash to treat the next character as a literal, and then typed Ctrl-J to get a newline. That sounds complicated, my version of bash lets me type 'fooenterbar'enter for the same effect. Well, I learned something new about bash. On the other hand, the Ctrl-Q next-char-is-literal trick works for entering control characters that otherwise don't have a key on the keyboard. How does that trick work? If I need a control character that is not available in my current keyboard mapping, how would I enter such a character using this Ctrl-Q trick? Just wondering, -- HansM -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
Am 31.10.2012 06:39 schrieb Robert Miles: For those of you running Linux: You may want to look into whether NoCeM is compatible with your newsreader and your version of Linux. This sounds as if it was intrinsically impossible to evaluate NoCeMs in Windows. If someone writes a software for it, it can be run wherever desired. Thomas -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 10:49:41 +0100, Hans Mulder wrote:
On 6/11/12 23:50:59, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 17:16:44 +, Prasad, Ramit wrote:
To enter the newline, I typed Ctrl-Q to tell bash to treat the next
character as a literal, and then typed Ctrl-J to get a newline.
That sounds complicated, my version of bash lets me type
'fooenterbar'enter for the same effect.
Well, I learned something new about bash.
On the other hand, the Ctrl-Q next-char-is-literal trick works for
entering control characters that otherwise don't have a key on the
keyboard.
How does that trick work? If I need a control character that is not
available in my current keyboard mapping, how would I enter such a
character using this Ctrl-Q trick?
This only works if you are running a Linux or Unix shell with the
libreadline library installed. This should work on nearly any modern
Linux system with the bash shell. I don't know about other shells.
On Mac OS, the relevant library is called libedit instead, and the
details may be different.
On Windows, you're out of luck.
Anyway, using Linux and bash: at the shell, if I type Ctrl-U, that is
interpreted by the shell to mean clear the line currently being edited.
So if I type Ctrl-U, the line is cleared.
But if I type Ctrl-Q first, then Ctrl-U, instead readline enters a
literal ^U character (ASCII value 0x15 = NAK Negative AcKnowledgment)
into the line editing buffer.
The same trick should work in the Python interactive editor:
ord('^U') # type Ctrl-Q Ctrl-U to get the ^U char
21
Note that this may or may not work in IDEs such as IDLE. Many IDEs do
their own thing for editing, and there's no guarantee they will support
this functionality.
One last comment: readline is very configurable, and the command to
insert the next character could be just about anything. But Ctrl-Q is the
standard.
--
Steven
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 7/11/12 01:13:47, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 23:08:11 +, Prasad, Ramit wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 17:16:44 +, Prasad, Ramit wrote: To enter the newline, I typed Ctrl-Q to tell bash to treat the next character as a literal, and then typed Ctrl-J to get a newline. That sounds complicated, my version of bash lets me type 'fooenterbar'enter for the same effect. Well, I learned something new about bash. On the other hand, the Ctrl-Q next-char-is-literal trick works for entering control characters that otherwise don't have a key on the keyboard. Would you mind elaborating on how this works? I know it's not a bash list, but I do not understand how ctrl-J is considered a literal. Obviously, I must have a different definition of literal. Where can I find a list of other literals? My Google-fu is being weak today. :( I'm not an expert, so the following may not be exactly correct. As I understand it, when you hit a key on the keyboard, it sends the character you typed to the operating system. (The OS can then remap keys, generate keyboard events including a timestamp, etc.) Hit the J key, and the event includes character j. Hit Shift-J, and character J is sent. Hit Ctrl-J, and the character sent is the ASCII control character ^J, or newline. (Technically, the name for ASCII 10 is linefeed rather than newline.) Actually, the correct name for this character is OS-dependant: The ASCII standard prescribes that if an OS chooses to use a single character as its line terminator, then it must be this one, and one should call it newline. Otherwise, it's name is linefeed. So, the correct name is newline on Posix system, but linefeed on Windows. Similarly, other control character combinations send other control codes: ^A = ASCII 0x01 Start Of Heading ^L = ASCII 0xFF Formfeed \f ^M = ASCII 0x0D Carriage Return \r etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C0_and_C1_control_codes When readline is enabled in bash, one of the standard editing commands is that C-q (usually ctrl-Q on the keyboard) instructs readline to treat the next key as a literal. So Ctrl-Q followed by Backspace won't delete the previous character, but insert a literal DEL 0x7F character. It depends on what mode bash is in. In Emacs mode, C-q works as you describe, but in Vi mode you'd use C-v. Doesn't everybody run bash in Vi mode :-? (One of those historical quirks is that on most(?) keyboards, the Backspace key generates a DEL character rather than the ^H backspace control code, and the Delete key generates an escape sequence. Go figure.) Another quirk is that on most keyboards the enter key generates a Carriage Return, which the terminal driver than converts to a Newline, if icrlf mode is active. (Shouldn't that be called icrnl mode?) Hope this helps, -- HansM -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Fri, 09 Nov 2012 12:34:27 +0100, Hans Mulder wrote: On 7/11/12 01:13:47, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Hit the J key, and the event includes character j. Hit Shift-J, and character J is sent. Hit Ctrl-J, and the character sent is the ASCII control character ^J, or newline. (Technically, the name for ASCII 10 is linefeed rather than newline.) Actually, the correct name for this character is OS-dependant: The ASCII standard prescribes that if an OS chooses to use a single character as its line terminator, then it must be this one, and one should call it newline. Otherwise, it's name is linefeed. So, the correct name is newline on Posix system, but linefeed on Windows. I find that hard to believe. Do you have a source for this claim? The ASCII standard has nothing to do with operating systems. It is a character encoding system, whether you are using computers or notches carved into pieces of wood, you can encode characters to values using ASCII. ASCII is operating system agnostic. Every source I have found describing the ASCII standard, and its equivalents from other standards bodies (e.g. ISO/IEC 646, EMCA 6) either directly refer to chr 10 as LF/Linefeed or refer back to the C0 control codes, which refers to it as LF/Linefeed. For example: http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/Ecma-006.pdf See also: http://www.terena.org/activities/multiling/euroml/section04.html which clearly shows char 10 as LF in all the given ISO 646 variants. If you have a source for this claim, I would like to see it, otherwise I will stand by my claim that the standard name for ASCII char 10 is linefeed. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 18:52:16 +1300, Gregory Ewing wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: The downside is that if spaces are not argument separators, then you need something else to be an argument separator. Or you need argument delimiters. Or strings need to be quoted. Programming languages do these things because they are designed to be correct. Shell do not because they are designed for lazy users and merely aim to be good enough. That's overly judgemental. Judgemental, sure. Overly judgemental? Not in my opinion. Besides, to some degree, all progress depends on the lazy person. It's less work to have the computer do it than to do it yourself. In the environment where shells originated, not being able to easily put spaces in file names wasn't considered a problem. File names weren't thought of as names in the natural language sense, but as identifiers in the programming sense. What you say may be true, but the question is, *why* did they think this? The closest analogue to computer files are paper files, which have always been treated as names in the natural language sense, and spaces allowed. Miss Jones, fetch me the Acme Television Company file! sort of thing. And this is exactly why people want spaces in file names, and have to be trained or prevented from doing so. So why did early shells ignore the (implied) business requirement that files represent natural names and instead treat them as programming identifiers? Because it was the easy thing to do. You don't complain that you can't put spaces in identifiers in a Python program, do you? I would if I could. But that would require the language to be... smarter? Less easy to use? *More* easy to use? It would require a major paradigm shift, and so I don't expect to treat identifiers as names, and use either CamelCase or names_with_underscores instead, even when the result is ugly. But that's not a fixed law of nature. If Inform 7 can include spaces in identifiers, so could other languages. http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/Inform_7_for_Programmers/Part_1 -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
Prasad, Ramit ramit.pra...@jpmorgan.com writes: Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 17:16:44 +, Prasad, Ramit wrote: To enter the newline, I typed Ctrl-Q to tell bash to treat the next character as a literal, and then typed Ctrl-J to get a newline. That sounds complicated, my version of bash lets me type 'fooenterbar'enter for the same effect. Well, I learned something new about bash. On the other hand, the Ctrl-Q next-char-is-literal trick works for entering control characters that otherwise don't have a key on the keyboard. Would you mind elaborating on how this works? I know it's not a bash list, but I do not understand how ctrl-J is considered a literal. Obviously, I must have a different definition of literal. Where can I find a list of other literals? My Google-fu is being weak today. :( It's a readline thing, when you've configured it to use emacs keybindings. You can look at the emacs manual about the quoted-insert function if you want. It's useful in emacs because people like to bind ordinary keystrokes to do esoteric stuff (such as binding the TAB key to insert appropriate amount of spaces), which means that you need a way to override it (if you want to insert a literal TAB character, for example). -- regards, kushal -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 2012-11-06, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 11:51:03 -0500, GangGreene wrote: I have just finished a 251 line bash shell script that builds my linux distro from scratch. From scratch? So if you run it on bare metal with no OS, it works? :-P But seriously -- bash is a mature, powerful shell. It works well for what it does. It has been designed to make it easy[1] to automate system admin tasks. And even people who have been writing bourne/korn/bash shell sripts for 30 years (crap, I'm old...) still occasionally (or even regularly) fall into the spaces in filenames hole. It's just too easy to type $Var instead of $Var. And not setting the nounset option can result in hours of fun trying to find that one place where a variable name is mistyped... It would be astonishing if an experienced, competent bash programmer couldn't write an installation tool in bash. Indeed. But when the good folks at RedHat sat down to write an installation tool back in '95 or so, they chose Python. By comparison, few general purpose programming languages (with the obvious exception of perl) are designed for system administration as their primary purpose. But... how robust is your script? How many bugs does it contain? Chances are you will only use it a handful of times, on the same system. That's not a lot of testing to be sure that it is free of bugs, and robust against unexpected input. Hell, even widely used and distributed install scripts written by companies with the resources of Ubuntu and Red Hat have a distressing tendency to break. Or worse, to behave in unexpected ways. That's not really helping your argument, since RedHat's install scripts have been written in Pyton since forever... In my opinion, control structures like for and if in bash are hard to use, hard to read, easy to get wrong, give cryptic error messages when you do get them wrong, and are ugly. Tests are obfuscated, and as always, the fact that everything is text in bash means it is way harder than it needs to be to use rich, modern data structures. I think anybody who writes anything of substance in bash would have to agree. However when the task involves mainly manipulating files and running other programs, the clumsy control structures are a small enough price to pay for the ease with which bash deals with manipulating files/paths/programs. OTOH, you can use C shell or PHP and get the worst of both worlds... -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I'm wet! I'm wild! at gmail.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
In article 50989a16$0$29980$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com,
Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
Shell do not [quote strings, etc] because they
are designed for lazy users and merely aim to be good enough.
Well, sort of. Or, perhaps more correctly, Yes, but that's a good
thing.
Shells are designed to be interactive tools, where most commands get run
once and thrown away. As such, you want everything to be easy to type,
which largely means your fingers never leave the main part of the
keyboard and you never have to reach for the shift key.
The basic unix shell syntax was laid down in the days of the ASR-33. It
was slow, hard to type on, and only had a single case of the alphabet
(and missing a few pieces of punctuation). Saving keystrokes was an
important consideration.
Programming languages are designed to write programs. Not only will the
code be {used, read, maintained} for a much longer period of time, it
will be used by people other than the original author, and on inputs
other than originally intended. It needs to be more robust.
The problem is that shells got pressed into service as programming
languages. At that, they suck. Sure, putting a few commands into a
file for reuse was great. Adding a few bells and whistles like
variables and conditional execution added greatly to the power of the
tool. But, by the time we got to 100 (or 1000!) line shell scripts with
functions, loops, arithmetic, etc, things had clearly gone off into the
weeds. It's just the wrong tool for that.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
Grant Edwards wrote: On 2012-11-05, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: In article mailman.3269.1352097585.27098.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: It's nothing to do with operating system. File names are names, and spaces in them are seldom worth the hassle unless you manipulate those files solely using a GUI. That's a very ascii-esqe attitude. In a fully unicode world, I could easily see using U+00A0 (NO-BREAK SPACE) in file names, and still have space-delimited CLI work just fine. No, it wouldn't work just fine. You'd never know when looking at names whether it was a regular space or a no-break space, and names would be visually ambiguous. Visually ambiguous names are horrible. Not to mention that in the GUI I (usually) want the space to be a break space. But, yeah, in the world we live in today, I try to avoid spaces in filenames. But, instead of turning My File Name into MyFileName, I'll usually do it as My-File-Name or My_File_Name. ~Ramit This email is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and conditions including on offers for the purchase or sale of securities, accuracy and completeness of information, viruses, confidentiality, legal privilege, and legal entity disclaimers, available at http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures/email. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 08:52:36 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
[putolin]
Programming languages are designed to write programs. Not only will the
code be {used, read, maintained} for a much longer period of time, it
will be used by people other than the original author, and on inputs
other than originally intended. It needs to be more robust.
The problem is that shells got pressed into service as programming
languages. At that, they suck. Sure, putting a few commands into a
file for reuse was great. Adding a few bells and whistles like
variables and conditional execution added greatly to the power of the
tool. But, by the time we got to 100 (or 1000!) line shell scripts with
functions, loops, arithmetic, etc, things had clearly gone off into the
weeds. It's just the wrong tool for that.
Really?
I have just finished a 251 line bash shell script that builds my linux
distro from scratch. It uses other bash shell scripts that have more
lines per file/script and sources the individual package build bash
scripts. I used C for the package manager which is only non bash script
part of the entire package management system. The only thing I would
like to see in bash is to be able to return a string from a function.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 14:47:47 -0500, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: [snip] Nevertheless, I do tend to prefer underscores to spaces, simply because I often use naive tools that treat spaces as separators. That is, command line shells. I visually prefer spaces but it is easier to work with underscores. Thankfully there are plenty of command line utilities for pattern renaming that let me shift to and from spaces as necessary. For what it's worth, you can enter any control character in Unix/Linux systems with readline in bash using the C-q key combination. Newline needs a bit of special treatment: you need to wrap the name in single quotes to stop the newline from being interpreted as the end of the command. [steve@ando temp]$ touch 'foo bar' To enter the newline, I typed Ctrl-Q to tell bash to treat the next character as a literal, and then typed Ctrl-J to get a newline. That sounds complicated, my version of bash lets me type 'fooenterbar'enter for the same effect. ~Ramit This email is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and conditions including on offers for the purchase or sale of securities, accuracy and completeness of information, viruses, confidentiality, legal privilege, and legal entity disclaimers, available at http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures/email. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 17:16:44 +, Prasad, Ramit wrote: To enter the newline, I typed Ctrl-Q to tell bash to treat the next character as a literal, and then typed Ctrl-J to get a newline. That sounds complicated, my version of bash lets me type 'fooenterbar'enter for the same effect. Well, I learned something new about bash. On the other hand, the Ctrl-Q next-char-is-literal trick works for entering control characters that otherwise don't have a key on the keyboard. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
RE: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 17:16:44 +, Prasad, Ramit wrote: To enter the newline, I typed Ctrl-Q to tell bash to treat the next character as a literal, and then typed Ctrl-J to get a newline. That sounds complicated, my version of bash lets me type 'fooenterbar'enter for the same effect. Well, I learned something new about bash. On the other hand, the Ctrl-Q next-char-is-literal trick works for entering control characters that otherwise don't have a key on the keyboard. Would you mind elaborating on how this works? I know it's not a bash list, but I do not understand how ctrl-J is considered a literal. Obviously, I must have a different definition of literal. Where can I find a list of other literals? My Google-fu is being weak today. :( ~Ramit This email is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and conditions including on offers for the purchase or sale of securities, accuracy and completeness of information, viruses, confidentiality, legal privilege, and legal entity disclaimers, available at http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures/email. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 11:51:03 -0500, GangGreene wrote: I have just finished a 251 line bash shell script that builds my linux distro from scratch. From scratch? So if you run it on bare metal with no OS, it works? :-P But seriously -- bash is a mature, powerful shell. It works well for what it does. It has been designed to make it easy[1] to automate system admin tasks. It would be astonishing if an experienced, competent bash programmer couldn't write an installation tool in bash. By comparison, few general purpose programming languages (with the obvious exception of perl) are designed for system administration as their primary purpose. But... how robust is your script? How many bugs does it contain? Chances are you will only use it a handful of times, on the same system. That's not a lot of testing to be sure that it is free of bugs, and robust against unexpected input. Hell, even widely used and distributed install scripts written by companies with the resources of Ubuntu and Red Hat have a distressing tendency to break. Or worse, to behave in unexpected ways. Unless you are some sort of bash-scripting über-geek superhero with powers beyond those of mortal men, chances are that your script is much more buggy and fragile than you imagine. How well does it recover from errors? Does it leave you with a broken system, half installed? How easily can you maintain it after three months? Will it work in the presence of filenames with newlines in them? [1] For some definition of easy. In my opinion, control structures like for and if in bash are hard to use, hard to read, easy to get wrong, give cryptic error messages when you do get them wrong, and are ugly. Tests are obfuscated, and as always, the fact that everything is text in bash means it is way harder than it needs to be to use rich, modern data structures. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 23:08:11 +, Prasad, Ramit wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 17:16:44 +, Prasad, Ramit wrote: To enter the newline, I typed Ctrl-Q to tell bash to treat the next character as a literal, and then typed Ctrl-J to get a newline. That sounds complicated, my version of bash lets me type 'fooenterbar'enter for the same effect. Well, I learned something new about bash. On the other hand, the Ctrl-Q next-char-is-literal trick works for entering control characters that otherwise don't have a key on the keyboard. Would you mind elaborating on how this works? I know it's not a bash list, but I do not understand how ctrl-J is considered a literal. Obviously, I must have a different definition of literal. Where can I find a list of other literals? My Google-fu is being weak today. :( I'm not an expert, so the following may not be exactly correct. As I understand it, when you hit a key on the keyboard, it sends the character you typed to the operating system. (The OS can then remap keys, generate keyboard events including a timestamp, etc.) Hit the J key, and the event includes character j. Hit Shift-J, and character J is sent. Hit Ctrl-J, and the character sent is the ASCII control character ^J, or newline. (Technically, the name for ASCII 10 is linefeed rather than newline.) Similarly, other control character combinations send other control codes: ^A = ASCII 0x01 Start Of Heading ^L = ASCII 0xFF Formfeed \f ^M = ASCII 0x0D Carriage Return \r etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C0_and_C1_control_codes When readline is enabled in bash, one of the standard editing commands is that C-q (usually ctrl-Q on the keyboard) instructs readline to treat the next key as a literal. So Ctrl-Q followed by Backspace won't delete the previous character, but insert a literal DEL 0x7F character. (One of those historical quirks is that on most(?) keyboards, the Backspace key generates a DEL character rather than the ^H backspace control code, and the Delete key generates an escape sequence. Go figure.) -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 23:14:40 +, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 11:51:03 -0500, GangGreene wrote: I have just finished a 251 line bash shell script that builds my linux distro from scratch. From scratch? So if you run it on bare metal with no OS, it works? It has a host system for build/bootstraping. Then it goes onto an USB drive, both as the OS and installation packages (with package manager) capable of install on a system without an OS. Hard drive needed ;) But seriously -- bash is a mature, powerful shell. It works well for what it does. It has been designed to make it easy[1] to automate system admin tasks. It would be astonishing if an experienced, competent bash programmer couldn't write an installation tool in bash. By comparison, few general purpose programming languages (with the obvious exception of perl) are designed for system administration as their primary purpose. But... how robust is your script? How many bugs does it contain? Chances are you will only use it a handful of times, on the same system. That's not a lot of testing to be sure that it is free of bugs, and robust against unexpected input. I have used it for several years and others have used it to build their own systems. I have used it on 586 to the latest multi core systems. Hell, even widely used and distributed install scripts written by companies with the resources of Ubuntu and Red Hat have a distressing tendency to break. Or worse, to behave in unexpected ways. I am not Redhat or Ubuntu (commercial distros stink) ;) Unless you are some sort of bash-scripting über-geek superhero with powers beyond those of mortal men, chances are that your script is much more buggy and fragile than you imagine. How well does it recover from errors? It stops on all critical build errors and skips the package on minimal errors, giving me a list of skipped packages and status on them at the end of the build sequence (so I can fix my errors). It will also download the source package if it is not present in the build directory. If I incur any breakage/error ( it can happen a lot ) it stops and notifies me. I then fix the package build script and lather/rinse/repeat until I get the package build correct. It logs all the information into build/testing/file listing/dependency requirements into log files. Then the package goes off to a repository holding all the other packages. The directory layout is like this: build +--section - programming/X window etc +package - python gcc coreutils and contains the build script ( bash script ) and source package. The build system ( bash scripts ) recurses this directory structure build the packages and placing them into repository +-base - base system packages kernel coreutils etc +-extra - programming packages, xorg etc here The package manager (written in C) then looks to the repository to install/update from the repository. Does it leave you with a broken system, half installed? No. It builds all of the packages and then creates binary/devel packages to be installed a new system. The finished packages go into a repository. If I update a package only that package is built and placed into the repository so all machine can be updated by my package manager. And yes the build script automatically takes care of all build dependencies as well as installed binary dependencies for the host installs. It will even build itself. How easily can you maintain it after three months? Will it work in the presence of filenames with newlines in them? I have maintained it for 8 years, and it can and does handle file names with spaces, any valid *nix file name character can be used. [1] For some definition of easy. In my opinion, control structures like for and if in bash are hard to use, hard to read, easy to get wrong, give cryptic error messages when you do get them wrong, and are ugly. Tests are obfuscated, and as always, the fact that everything is text in bash means it is way harder than it needs to be to use rich, modern data structures. Only from a certain points of view. I use many for loops and no if statements. There is a good alternate for if, easily understandable if you know C and boolean logic. My background is in C and Delphi/Pascal and I didn't have problems with bash scripting. I want to have a go at python. Arch linux pacman package management/build/delevopment system is very similar to mine. If you wish to take a look at it. It is also mostly bash scripts with some C and python2/3 to boot. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
Steven D'Aprano wrote: The downside is that if spaces are not argument separators, then you need something else to be an argument separator. Or you need argument delimiters. Or strings need to be quoted. Programming languages do these things because they are designed to be correct. Shell do not because they are designed for lazy users and merely aim to be good enough. That's overly judgemental. In the environment where shells originated, not being able to easily put spaces in file names wasn't considered a problem. File names weren't thought of as names in the natural language sense, but as identifiers in the programming sense. You don't complain that you can't put spaces in identifiers in a Python program, do you? No, because that would require all identifiers to be quoted somehow, which would drive you crazy. In the same way, requiring all filenames to be quoted would drive shell users crazy. -- Greg -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
In article afub8ifbvf...@mid.individual.net, Gregory Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: The downside is that if spaces are not argument separators, then you need something else to be an argument separator. Or you need argument delimiters. Or strings need to be quoted. Programming languages do these things because they are designed to be correct. Shell do not because they are designed for lazy users and merely aim to be good enough. That's overly judgemental. In the environment where shells originated, not being able to easily put spaces in file names wasn't considered a problem. File names weren't thought of as names in the natural language sense, but as identifiers in the programming sense. You don't complain that you can't put spaces in identifiers in a Python program, do you? No, because that would require all identifiers to be quoted somehow, which would drive you crazy. In the same way, requiring all filenames to be quoted would drive shell users crazy. On the other hand, if you *wanted* to put a space in a Python identifier, you just can't. If you want to put a space in a file name in the shell, all you need do is put spaces around the name. Or, if you prefer, escape the space with a backslash. Oh, wait. This blows my mind... f = Foo() setattr(f, x y, xyz) dir(f) ['__doc__', '__module__', 'x y'] I did not expect this to work. Not quite sure what I've created here. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
In article mailman.3269.1352097585.27098.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: It's nothing to do with operating system. File names are names, and spaces in them are seldom worth the hassle unless you manipulate those files solely using a GUI. That's a very ascii-esqe attitude. In a fully unicode world, I could easily see using U+00A0 (NO-BREAK SPACE) in file names, and still have space-delimited CLI work just fine. But, yeah, in the world we live in today, I try to avoid spaces in filenames. But, instead of turning My File Name into MyFileName, I'll usually do it as My-File-Name or My_File_Name. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 11:56 PM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: That's a very ascii-esqe attitude. In a fully unicode world, I could easily see using U+00A0 (NO-BREAK SPACE) in file names, and still have space-delimited CLI work just fine. Oh, do you have a U+00A0-bar on your keyboard? ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 2012-11-05, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: In article mailman.3269.1352097585.27098.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: It's nothing to do with operating system. File names are names, and spaces in them are seldom worth the hassle unless you manipulate those files solely using a GUI. That's a very ascii-esqe attitude. In a fully unicode world, I could easily see using U+00A0 (NO-BREAK SPACE) in file names, and still have space-delimited CLI work just fine. No, it wouldn't work just fine. You'd never know when looking at names whether it was a regular space or a no-break space, and names would be visually ambiguous. Visually ambiguous names are horrible. But, yeah, in the world we live in today, I try to avoid spaces in filenames. But, instead of turning My File Name into MyFileName, I'll usually do it as My-File-Name or My_File_Name. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Boys, you have ALL at been selected to LEAVE th' gmail.comPLANET in 15 minutes!! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 2012-11-05, Dennis Lee Bieber wlfr...@ix.netcom.com wrote: On Mon, 5 Nov 2012 17:39:35 +1100, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general: It's nothing to do with operating system. File names are names, and spaces in them are seldom worth the hassle unless you manipulate those files solely using a GUI. At least spaces are visible. CP/V would accept non-printable characters in file names... Things like BEL were valid -- but figure out where in the name the BEL character was when listing the directory contents G Don't most OSes allow non-printing characters in filenames? VMS and Unix always have. AFAIK, there are only two characters that can't appear in a Unix filename: '\x00' and '/'. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! I feel better about at world problems now! gmail.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 11/04/2012 04:13 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: / ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Fri 2.Nov'12 at 11:39:10 -0700 / (I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being an age-old means of trolling.) No, i'm not a troll. I was just adding my opinion to the thread, I assumed that was allowed. I didn't say UNIX is better than Windows, did I; I just feel that Windows is not -- for me anyway -- the most suitable plaform for learning about the science of computing and coding, etc... being a computer science student that's the view i have and share with those I learn with and from. Why must people be accused of trolling everytime they make a statement that conveys a preference over one platform or language, for example, than the other. Provoking someone by labeling them a troll or implying they might be is a bit childish really. I deliberately worded my response to avoid calling you a troll but rather just suggested the possibility so a denial without all the indignation would be more appropriate. (And FWIW I agree that troll is often used here synonymously with I disagree with you but that is not how I used it.) You should realize that a good way to start an endless argument and one that has a long history of being used by trolls is to assert that OS/language/whatever is better than some other one in an environment where there are also lots of users of the other one. Substituting serious or any other value-laden, unsubstantiatable word for better is just a insignificant variation. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 14:47:47 -0500, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
Don't most OSes allow non-printing characters in filenames? VMS and
Unix always have. AFAIK, there are only two characters that can't
appear in a Unix filename: '\x00' and '/'.
But can you /enter/ them with common keystrokes on a plain text
terminal (it's been 35 years, so I don't recall the exact key used for
the BEL on CP/V -- my mind thinks ctrl-f was used)... No cutpaste
from character map, no alt-3digitsequence...
For most people, that's a pointless restriction. You might as well insist
that the file name can be typed without using the shift key, or using
only the left hand of the keyboard. Copy-paste, char map, alt-digits are
as much a part of the input environment on modern systems as the keyboard.
Nevertheless, I do tend to prefer underscores to spaces, simply because I
often use naive tools that treat spaces as separators. That is, command
line shells.
For what it's worth, you can enter any control character in Unix/Linux
systems with readline in bash using the C-q key combination. Newline
needs a bit of special treatment: you need to wrap the name in single
quotes to stop the newline from being interpreted as the end of the
command.
[steve@ando temp]$ touch 'foo
bar'
To enter the newline, I typed Ctrl-Q to tell bash to treat the next
character as a literal, and then typed Ctrl-J to get a newline.
[steve@ando temp]$ ls
foo?bar
[steve@ando temp]$ python -c import os
for nm in os.listdir('.'): print repr(nm)
'foo\nbar'
--
Steven
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 17:39:35 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote: On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 5:10 PM, rusi rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: Among people who know me, I am a linux nerd: My sister scolded me yesterday because I put files on her computer without spaces: DoesAnyoneWriteLikeThis?!?! My filenames seldom have spaces in them, but that has nothing to do with how I write English. Names are names. They're not essays, they are not written as full sentences. But names are often multiple words and sentence fragments, and for those you *need* spaces. Or at least an ersatz space, like underscore, which is ugly and harder to use, but at least makes using command shells easier to use. But don't be fooled: the fault belongs to the shell, not the space. The problem is that shells are untyped and treat *everything* as a stream of text, and therefore cannot distinguish between arguments, variables, numbers, commands, etc. except by a few simplistic conventions such as: The first word on the line is the command. If it starts with a dash, it must be a command option. Arguments are separated by spaces. etc. When your data (e.g. filenames) violate those naive assumptions, as they frequently do, the shell cannot cope. One solution would be to fix the tools. Another would be to mangle the data. Real programming languages don't have this problem. You can trivially refer to any file name, regardless of the characters in its name, in Python because you have a much more powerful set of tools: commands take real arguments, and the presence of a space in one argument cannot cause it to bleed over into the next argument. The downside is that if spaces are not argument separators, then you need something else to be an argument separator. Or you need argument delimiters. Or strings need to be quoted. Programming languages do these things because they are designed to be correct. Shell do not because they are designed for lazy users and merely aim to be good enough. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
/ ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Fri 2.Nov'12 at 11:39:10 -0700 / (I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being an age-old means of trolling.) No, i'm not a troll. I was just adding my opinion to the thread, I assumed that was allowed. I didn't say UNIX is better than Windows, did I; I just feel that Windows is not -- for me anyway -- the most suitable plaform for learning about the science of computing and coding, etc... being a computer science student that's the view i have and share with those I learn with and from. Why must people be accused of trolling everytime they make a statement that conveys a preference over one platform or language, for example, than the other. Provoking someone by labeling them a troll or implying they might be is a bit childish really. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 04-Nov-2012 12:13, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: / ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Fri 2.Nov'12 at 11:39:10 -0700 / (I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being an age-old means of trolling.) No, i'm not a troll. I was just adding my opinion to the thread, I assumed that was allowed. I didn't say UNIX is better than Windows, did I; I just feel that Windows is not -- for me anyway -- the most suitable plaform for learning about the science of computing and coding, etc... being a computer science student that's the view i have and share with those I learn with and from. Why must people be accused of trolling everytime they make a statement that conveys a preference over one platform or language, for example, than the other. Provoking someone by labeling them a troll or implying they might be is a bit childish really. Well stated Jamie --- I agree. I don't believe that all members of this list label you as a troll. --V -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 01/11/2012 09:55, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: / Robert Miles wrote on Wed 31.Oct'12 at 0:39:02 -0500 / For those of you running Linux: You may want to look into whether NoCeM is compatible with your newsreader and your version of Linux. It checks newsgroups news.lists.filters and alt.nocem.misc for lists of spam posts, and will automatically hide them for you. Not available for other operating systems, though, except possibly Unix. Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now. Anybody serious about programming should know that an OS is a combination of the hardware and software. Can the *Nix variants now do proper clustering or are they still decades behind VMS? Never used the other main/mini frame systems myself but perhaps they are still vastly superior to this highly overrated *Nix crap. -- Cheers. Mark Lawrence. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.ukwrote: Anybody serious about programming should know that an OS is a combination of the hardware and software. Can the *Nix variants now do proper clustering or are they still decades behind VMS? Never used the other main/mini frame systems myself but perhaps they are still vastly superior to this highly overrated *Nix crap. What relevance does clustering have for a desktop workstation OS? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Nov 4, 4:14 pm, Jamie Paul Griffin ja...@kode5.net wrote: / ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Fri 2.Nov'12 at 11:39:10 -0700 / (I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being an age-old means of trolling.) No, i'm not a troll. I was just adding my opinion to the thread, I assumed that was allowed. I didn't say UNIX is better than Windows, did I; I just feel that Windows is not -- for me anyway -- the most suitable plaform for learning about the science of computing and coding, etc... being a computer science student that's the view i have and share with those I learn with and from. Why must people be accused of trolling everytime they make a statement that conveys a preference over one platform or language, for example, than the other. Provoking someone by labeling them a troll or implying they might be is a bit childish really. Hi Jamie Among people who know me, I am a linux nerd: My sister scolded me yesterday because I put files on her computer without spaces: DoesAnyoneWriteLikeThis?!?! Your post reminds me: As someone who has taught CS for 25 years, Ive not only been party to his Unix-fanboy viewpoint but have even actively fostered it. Over time Ive come to have some pangs of conscience about this. Evidently this kind of attitude has helped no one: not my students, not the corporations they join, not the society at large. So now, on my blog I maintain a record of the foibles of CS academics. http://blog.languager.org/2011/02/cs-education-is-fat-and-weak-1.html is a history of CS as it is normally given. http://blog.languager.org/2011/02/cs-education-is-fat-and-weak-2.html is the above deconstructed with stupidities of academic CS factored in. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 5:10 PM, rusi rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: Among people who know me, I am a linux nerd: My sister scolded me yesterday because I put files on her computer without spaces: DoesAnyoneWriteLikeThis?!?! My filenames seldom have spaces in them, but that has nothing to do with how I write English. Names are names. They're not essays, they are not written as full sentences. When a name contains spaces, it must be delimited (or the space must be escaped, if your environment permits) any time it occurs inside some other context - most commonly, as a command-line argument. Back when I was using MS-DOS 5, it was possible to have file names with spaces. It wasn't easy to manipulate them from the command line, but you could reference them using globs (eg replace the space(s) with ? and hope that there are no false hits). OS/2, when working on a FAT filesystem, would create files called EA DATA. SF or WP ROOT. SF or WP SHARE. SF (two spaces in each), and most DOS/Windows programs wouldn't (couldn't) touch them - they were safe repositories for system metadata (on smarter filesystems, that sort of thing would be stored as file attributes, not as separate files). It's nothing to do with operating system. File names are names, and spaces in them are seldom worth the hassle unless you manipulate those files solely using a GUI. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Nov 5, 11:40 am, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 5:10 PM, rusi rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: Among people who know me, I am a linux nerd: My sister scolded me yesterday because I put files on her computer without spaces: DoesAnyoneWriteLikeThis?!?! My filenames seldom have spaces in them, but that has nothing to do with how I write English. Names are names. They're not essays, they are not written as full sentences. When a name contains spaces, it must be delimited (or the space must be escaped, if your environment permits) any time it occurs inside some other context - most commonly, as a command-line argument. Back when I was using MS-DOS 5, it was possible to have file names with spaces. It wasn't easy to manipulate them from the command line, but you could reference them using globs (eg replace the space(s) with ? and hope that there are no false hits). OS/2, when working on a FAT filesystem, would create files called EA DATA. SF or WP ROOT. SF or WP SHARE. SF (two spaces in each), and most DOS/Windows programs wouldn't (couldn't) touch them - they were safe repositories for system metadata (on smarter filesystems, that sort of thing would be stored as file attributes, not as separate files). It's nothing to do with operating system. File names are names, and spaces in them are seldom worth the hassle unless you manipulate those files solely using a GUI. ChrisA So you and I (and probably many on this list) agree! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
in 684220 20121102 093654 Jamie Paul Griffin ja...@kode5.net wrote: / ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 / On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now. Are you saying that this group is only for serious programmers? I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for itself. Many Universities that offer respected and credible science based degree programmes, namely engineering and computing programmes, strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems. Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windows at all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time. serious is also a matter of opinion. I have some serious programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie languages like Python, but should be developing their skills with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc. That is a narrow minded approach. different languages serve different purposes and it's down to the developer to use which language she needs to achieve what it is they've set out to do. Sometimes, basic shell scripts can be extremely powerful for certain tasks; other needs will require something different. I certainly wouldn't describe Python as a script-kiddie language. It's extremely powerful and modern. So there ;-P lol Real programmers (can) write in assembler. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 11/03/2012 03:44 AM, Bob Martin wrote: snip Real programmers (can) write in assembler. Real programmers can (and have) write in hex/octal or binary. For my first project at a permanent job, I had to write code for a machine with no assembler. Near the end of the project, I wrote a text editor and (cross) assembler for it, because maintaining the source with pen/ink was getting tedious. For the DOS world, real programmers have written a complete *.com program using only echo. -- DaveA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 1:24 AM, Dave Angel d...@davea.name wrote: For the DOS world, real programmers have written a complete *.com program using only echo. Only as an exercise. It was satisfying to prove to myself that I could do it, but pretty useless. Normally I used DEBUG.EXE to build my code - it has a mini-assembler in it. Incidentally, I used debug as a full assembler, with a bit of a REXX harness around it - used that to write OS/2 code in pure assembly, without the bother of, yaknow, getting an actual assembler. Suddenly things got WAY easier once I got hold of nasm... ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 10:24:15 -0400, Dave Angel wrote: For the DOS world, real programmers have written a complete *.com program using only echo. Echo? Wimps. Real programmers write their code directly on the surface of the hard drive using only a magnetised needle. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
/ ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 / On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now. Are you saying that this group is only for serious programmers? I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for itself. Many Universities that offer respected and credible science based degree programmes, namely engineering and computing programmes, strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems. Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windows at all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time. serious is also a matter of opinion. I have some serious programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie languages like Python, but should be developing their skills with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc. That is a narrow minded approach. different languages serve different purposes and it's down to the developer to use which language she needs to achieve what it is they've set out to do. Sometimes, basic shell scripts can be extremely powerful for certain tasks; other needs will require something different. I certainly wouldn't describe Python as a script-kiddie language. It's extremely powerful and modern. So there ;-P lol -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 2012-11-02, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 10:32:08 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote: And there are probably still a few around who maintain that Java, C#, and even C are too modern, and that serious programmers use FORTRAN or COBOL. Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern, advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell. Don't forget Smalltalk! Old, but always modern and advanced... -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! ! Everybody out of at the GENETIC POOL! gmail.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 3:36 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin ja...@kode5.net wrote: / ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 / On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now. Are you saying that this group is only for serious programmers? I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for itself. Many Universities that offer respected and credible science based degree programmes, namely engineering and computing programmes, strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems. Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windows at all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time. I am comfortable with both Windows and Unix systems, and I do not find that either environment is particularly more effective for software engineering or helps me to be more productive than the other. My job has me developing Windows software, so I use Windows at work since at the very least I require it for testing and debugging. I could use virtualization to run Unix as well, and I have known some who do, but my philosophy is: why waste time dealing with two distinct environments where only one is required? Cheers, Ian -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 11/02/2012 03:36 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: / ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 / On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now. Are you saying that this group is only for serious programmers? I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for itself. Many Universities that offer respected and credible science based degree programmes, namely engineering and computing programmes, strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems. Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windo ws at all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time. Wow, that makes me feel like I am back in the 1990s! Thanks for the trip down memory lane. :-) serious is also a matter of opinion. I have some serious programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie languages like Python, but should be developing their skills with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc. That is a narrow minded approach. different languages serve different purposes and it's down to the developer to use which language she needs to achieve what it is they've set out to do. Sometimes, basic shell scripts can be extremely powerful for certain tasks; other needs will require something different. I certainly wouldn't describe Python as a script-kiddie language. It's extremely powerful and modern. So there ;-P lol Right. I happen to agree with you and was just repeating an elitist attitude I've often heard where what *I* use is for *serious* business and what *they* use is just for playing around, for those without as much technical competence as me, etc. Without a quantitative definition of serious and some objective evidence supporting it, your opinion that unix is more serious than windows is as narrow-minded as my friends' opinion (which was the point I was trying to make and which you seem to have missed.) I don't particularly like Windows and am able to mostly avoid it these days, but think you should realize that describing it as not for *serious* use is going irritate some people and make you look like you are not able to make objective judgements. (I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being an age-old means of trolling.) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 02/11/2012 18:39, ru...@yahoo.com wrote: On 11/02/2012 03:36 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: / ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Thu 1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 / On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now. Are you saying that this group is only for serious programmers? I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for itself. Many Universities that offer respected and credible science based degree programmes, namely engineering and computing programmes, strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems. Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windo ws at all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time. Wow, that makes me feel like I am back in the 1990s! Thanks for the trip down memory lane. :-) serious is also a matter of opinion. I have some serious programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie languages like Python, but should be developing their skills with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc. That is a narrow minded approach. different languages serve different purposes and it's down to the developer to use which language she needs to achieve what it is they've set out to do. Sometimes, basic shell scripts can be extremely powerful for certain tasks; other needs will require something different. I certainly wouldn't describe Python as a script-kiddie language. It's extremely powerful and modern. So there ;-P lol Right. I happen to agree with you and was just repeating an elitist attitude I've often heard where what *I* use is for *serious* business and what *they* use is just for playing around, for those without as much technical competence as me, etc. Without a quantitative definition of serious and some objective evidence supporting it, your opinion that unix is more serious than windows is as narrow-minded as my friends' opinion (which was the point I was trying to make and which you seem to have missed.) I don't particularly like Windows and am able to mostly avoid it these days, but think you should realize that describing it as not for *serious* use is going irritate some people and make you look like you are not able to make objective judgements. (I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being an age-old means of trolling.) Does Unix now have clustering, or is it still behind VMS aka Very Much Safer? -- Cheers. Mark Lawrence. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
/ Robert Miles wrote on Wed 31.Oct'12 at 0:39:02 -0500 / For those of you running Linux: You may want to look into whether NoCeM is compatible with your newsreader and your version of Linux. It checks newsgroups news.lists.filters and alt.nocem.misc for lists of spam posts, and will automatically hide them for you. Not available for other operating systems, though, except possibly Unix. Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
/ Steven D'Aprano wrote on Wed 31.Oct'12 at 22:33:16 + / On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:32:57 -0700, rurpy wrote: I don't killfile merely for posting from Gmail or Google Groups, but regarding your second point, it has seemed to me for some years now that Gmail is the new Hotmail, which was the new AOL. Whenever there is an inane, lazy, mind-numbingly stupid question or post, chances are extremely high that the sender has a Gmail address. That's a bit harsh but then, sadly there's some truth in it. I subscribe to a number of technical mailing lists, like that of my OS OpenBSD and the problem doesn't exist there whether they use Gmail or Hotmail, etc, or not. This and the tutor python list are the two I have the most problems with formatting. Some people just don't seem to give a shit about sending horrid html and other irritating formatted mail in spite of being asked not to do so. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now. Are you saying that this group is only for serious programmers? serious is also a matter of opinion. I have some serious programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie languages like Python, but should be developing their skills with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 9:08 AM, ru...@yahoo.com wrote: On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote: Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now. Are you saying that this group is only for serious programmers? It's not; also, so long as Python maintains an official Windows build, this list/group will be fielding questions about Windows. But there's still good reason to grab a Linux. http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#idp29970256 serious is also a matter of opinion. I have some serious programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie languages like Python, but should be developing their skills with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc. And there are probably still a few around who maintain that Java, C#, and even C are too modern, and that serious programmers use FORTRAN or COBOL. Or assembly language. Let 'em. Meanwhile I'll have demonstrable code done while they're still fiddling around with details, because my languages (including, though by no means limited to, Python) do most of the work for me. ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 10:32:08 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote: And there are probably still a few around who maintain that Java, C#, and even C are too modern, and that serious programmers use FORTRAN or COBOL. Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern, advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell. [1] Ancient is a frame of mind, not a chronological state. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
In article 50932111$0$29967$c3e8da3$54964...@news.astraweb.com, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern, advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell. Does anybody actually use D for anything? I looked at the language a while ago. There seemed to be a lot in it that made sense. Does it get any real use, or is it just an interesting research project? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 01:25:37 -, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern, advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell. Advanced? Huh. I have here a language that does exactly what I want without all that messy syntax nonsense. I call it Research Assistant. -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 10/30/2012 11:07 PM, Robert Miles wrote: On 9/16/2012 8:18 AM, Ben Finney wrote: Νικόλαος Κούρας nikos.gr...@gmail.com writes: Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done. Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know. It is becoming quite clear that some change has happened recently to Google Groups that makes posts coming from there rather more obnoxious than before. And there doesn't seem to be much its users can do except use something else. You (BF) are wrong that there doesn't seem to be much its users can do... and I explained why previously. However, since you have advocated killfiling anyone using GG (which I do) you probably didn't see my post. If you choose intentional ignorance that is your choice but you do a disservice to the community by advocating that others do the same. (Officer, I don't deserve this ticket because I couldn't see the traffic signal was red; I had my eyes closed. :-) You're probably referring to their change in the way they handle end-of-lines, which is now incompatible with most newsreaders, especially with multiple levels of quoting. It's a minor pain to fix this when posting, but 1. It is fixable (and previous post of mine gave a couple ways) 2. The double spacing is obvious in Google's compose window so if one posts anyway, it is a matter of laziness. The incompatibility tends to insert a blank line after every line. With multiple levels of quoting, this gives blank line groups that often roughly double in size for every level of quoting. Robert Miles -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:32:57 -0700, rurpy wrote: [...] You're probably referring to their change in the way they handle end-of-lines, which is now incompatible with most newsreaders, especially with multiple levels of quoting. It's a minor pain to fix this when posting, but 1. It is fixable (and previous post of mine gave a couple ways) 2. The double spacing is obvious in Google's compose window so if one posts anyway, it is a matter of laziness. I don't killfile merely for posting from Gmail or Google Groups, but regarding your second point, it has seemed to me for some years now that Gmail is the new Hotmail, which was the new AOL. Whenever there is an inane, lazy, mind-numbingly stupid question or post, chances are extremely high that the sender has a Gmail address. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 31 October 2012 22:33, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: [...] I don't killfile merely for posting from Gmail And we are humbly grateful. -- Arnaud -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 9/16/2012 8:18 AM, Ben Finney wrote: Νικόλαος Κούρας nikos.gr...@gmail.com writes: Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done. Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know. It is becoming quite clear that some change has happened recently to Google Groups that makes posts coming from there rather more obnoxious than before. And there doesn't seem to be much its users can do except use something else. You're probably referring to their change in the way they handle end-of-lines, which is now incompatible with most newsreaders, especially with multiple levels of quoting. The incompatibility tends to insert a blank line after every line. With multiple levels of quoting, this gives blank line groups that often roughly double in size for every level of quoting. Robert Miles -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 9/16/2012 10:44 AM, pandora.ko...@gmail.com wrote: Whaen i tried to post just now by hitting sumbit, google groups told me that the following addresssed has benn found in this thread! i guess is used them all to notify everything! cdf072b2-7359-4417-b1e4-d984e4317...@googlegroups.com mailman.774.1347735926.27098.python-l...@python.org nikos.gr...@gmail.com When you try to post anything to a newsgroup, they try to use their method of preventing email spammers from getting email addresses by complaining about any email addresses that look like the could be valid. If you want to make the post compatible with their method, select the option to edit the post when they offer it, and change the last three characters before each @ in an email address to three periods (...). The submit should then work. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 9/16/2012 8:14 PM, alex23 wrote: On Sep 17, 10:55 am, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: They didn't buy the service. They bought the data. Well, they really bought both, but the data is all they wanted. I thought they'd taken most of the historical data offline now too? Some of it, but they still had my newsgroups posts from 15 years ago the last time I looked. They appear to have taken most of any Fidonet data offline, though. They appear to be taking some of the spam and other abuse offline after it's reported by at least two people, but rather slowly and not keeping up with the amount that's posted. For those of you running Linux: You may want to look into whether NoCeM is compatible with your newsreader and your version of Linux. It checks newsgroups news.lists.filters and alt.nocem.misc for lists of spam posts, and will automatically hide them for you. Not available for other operating systems, though, except possibly Unix. NoCeM http://www.cm.org/nocem.html bleachbot http://home.httrack.net/~nocem/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
On 2012-09-22, Hank Gay hank.gay+eternal.septem...@gmail.com wrote: On 2012-09-21 15:07:09 +, Grant Edwards said: I told my news client years ago to filter out anything posted from Google Groups -- and I know I'm not alone. If one wants the best chance of getting a question answered, using something other than Google Groups is indeed a good idea. What's that filter look like? Score:: =- Message-ID: .*googlegroups.com -- Grant -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
On 2012-09-16, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: nikos.gr...@gmail.com writes: Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done. Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know. It is becoming quite clear that some change has happened recently to Google Groups that makes posts coming from there rather more obnoxious than before. Well, that's certainly something of an accomplishment. I've become somewhat suspicious that Google Groups is Google's deliberate attempt to kill off Usenet and non-Google-controlled mailing lists. Nothing can be that bad by accident. Except perhaps certain Microsoft products make that most Microsoft products. And there doesn't seem to be much its users can do except use something else. Using Google Groups for posting to Usenet has been a bad idea for a long time, but now it just seems to be a sure recipe for annoying the rest of us. Again, not something you have much control over, except to stop using Google Groups. I told my news client years ago to filter out anything posted from Google Groups -- and I know I'm not alone. If one wants the best chance of getting a question answered, using something other than Google Groups is indeed a good idea. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! The PILLSBURY DOUGHBOY at is CRYING for an END to gmail.comBURT REYNOLDS movies!! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:07:09 +, Grant Edwards wrote: I told my news client years ago to filter out anything posted from Google Groups -- and I know I'm not alone. If one wants the best chance of getting a question answered, using something other than Google Groups is indeed a good idea. +1 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
On 2012-09-21 15:07:09 +, Grant Edwards said: I told my news client years ago to filter out anything posted from Google Groups -- and I know I'm not alone. If one wants the best chance of getting a question answered, using something other than Google Groups is indeed a good idea. What's that filter look like? --Hank -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 9/16/2012 8:18 AM, Ben Finney wrote: Νικόλαος Κούρας nikos.gr...@gmail.com writes: Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done. Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know. It is becoming quite clear that some change has happened recently to Google Groups that makes posts coming from there rather more obnoxious than before. And there doesn't seem to be much its users can do except use something else. Using Google Groups for posting to Usenet has been a bad idea for a long time, but now it just seems to be a sure recipe for annoying the rest of us. Again, not something you have much control over, except to stop using Google Groups. Could this mean that Google wants all the spam posted through Google Groups to look obnoxious to the rest of Usenet that the spammers will go elsewhere? Robert Miles -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
On Sunday 16 September 2012 12:29:39 pandora.ko...@gmail.com did opine: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list email client to python-list@python.org wait a minute! i must use my ISP's news server and then post o comp.lang.python no? No. What is python-list@python.org how can i post there? Install thunderbird. Its a real email agent, even on a windows box. But first you must subscribe as I discussed in a previous msg. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Q: How was Thomas J. Watson buried? A: 9 edge down. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
[ Joel Goldstick wrote on Sun 16.Sep'12 at 11:57:56 -0400 ] email client to python-list@python.org If using Windows I would certainly use Thunderbird or even slrn news reader - I believe there is a version for Windows. Or you could install Interix subsystem which provides UNIX tools for Windows 7 Ultimate or Professional. You'd then have some more choice of MUA client or newsreader client in that environment. Cygwin is another alternative. UNIX systems just use whatever email client you like and subscribe to the list as explained several times by others. Fortunately for me I've got procmail deleting double posts because they are annoying. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
Τη Κυριακή, 16 Σεπτεμβρίου 2012 4:18:50 μ.μ. UTC+3, ο χρήστης Ben Finney έγραψε: Νικόλαος Κούρας nikos.gr...@gmail.com writes: Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done. Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know. It is becoming quite clear that some change has happened recently to Google Groups that makes posts coming from there rather more obnoxious than before. And there doesn't seem to be much its users can do except use something else. Using Google Groups for posting to Usenet has been a bad idea for a long time, but now it just seems to be a sure recipe for annoying the rest of us. Again, not something you have much control over, except to stop using Google Groups. -- \ “Actually I made up the term “object-oriented”, and I can tell | `\you I did not have C++ in mind.” —Alan Kay, creator of | _o__)Smalltalk, at OOPSLA 1997 | Ben Finney If i ditch google groups what application can i use in Windows 8 to post to this newsgroup and what newsserver too? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
Whaen i tried to post just now by hitting sumbit, google groups told me that the following addresssed has benn found in this thread! i guess is used them all to notify everything! cdf072b2-7359-4417-b1e4-d984e4317...@googlegroups.com mailman.774.1347735926.27098.python-l...@python.org nikos.gr...@gmail.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 1:44 AM, pandora.ko...@gmail.com wrote: Whaen i tried to post just now by hitting sumbit, google groups told me that the following addresssed has benn found in this thread! i guess is used them all to notify everything! cdf072b2-7359-4417-b1e4-d984e4317...@googlegroups.com mailman.774.1347735926.27098.python-l...@python.org nikos.gr...@gmail.com Ah. Did you then send to all three? Just a wild guess, but I'm thinking that might be the cause of post duplication... ChrisA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list email client to python-list@python.org wait a minute! i must use my ISP's news server and then post o comp.lang.python no? What is python-list@python.org how can i post there? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 11:41 AM, pandora.ko...@gmail.com wrote: Τη Κυριακή, 16 Σεπτεμβρίου 2012 4:18:50 μ.μ. UTC+3, ο χρήστης Ben Finney έγραψε: Νικόλαος Κούρας nikos.gr...@gmail.com writes: Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done. Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know. It is becoming quite clear that some change has happened recently to Google Groups that makes posts coming from there rather more obnoxious than before. And there doesn't seem to be much its users can do except use something else. Using Google Groups for posting to Usenet has been a bad idea for a long time, but now it just seems to be a sure recipe for annoying the rest of us. Again, not something you have much control over, except to stop using Google Groups. -- \ “Actually I made up the term “object-oriented”, and I can tell | `\you I did not have C++ in mind.” —Alan Kay, creator of | _o__)Smalltalk, at OOPSLA 1997 | Ben Finney If i ditch google groups what application can i use in Windows 8 to post to this newsgroup and what newsserver too? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list email client to python-list@python.org -- Joel Goldstick -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
Ah. Did you then send to all three? Just a wild guess, but I'm thinking that might be the cause of post duplication... ChrisA I had no choise, it doesnt let me pick one, it just notifies me that it will posted to these 3. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 12:06 PM, pandora.ko...@gmail.com wrote: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list email client to python-list@python.org wait a minute! i must use my ISP's news server and then post o comp.lang.python no? What is python-list@python.org how can i post there? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list go to the url http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list sign up and use your email client instead. -- Joel Goldstick -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 9/16/2012 11:41 AM, pandora.ko...@gmail.com wrote: If i ditch google groups PLEASE DO what application can i use in Windows 8 to post to this newsgroup and what newsserver too? news.gmane.org is a free newsserver that mirrors 1000s of technical email lists. python-list is gmane.comp.python.general. There are 100s of other gmane.comp.python.* groups. I use Thunderbird on Win7 because it does both mail and news. I previously used Outlook Express for same. There are others. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
On Sunday 16 September 2012 12:08:47 pandora.ko...@gmail.com did opine: Whaen i tried to post just now by hitting sumbit, google groups told me that the following addresssed has benn found in this thread! i guess is used them all to notify everything! cdf072b2-7359-4417-b1e4-d984e4317...@googlegroups.com mailman.774.1347735926.27098.python-l...@python.org nikos.gr...@gmail.com Look, this googlegroups thing acting as a spam gateway has long since gotten old. Whatever agent/program you are using must be a busted windows application because it is not showing you the last line of every post that comes through the list server which is: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list There is, immediately above that line a '-- ' (note the space after, and its always after a linefeed or carriage return so its the first character of a line, and its code to all sane email agents that anything below it is a signature and not to be copied into a reply. Windows email tends to clip it off and a windows user will never see it! So that is why many of us lament, in long strings of expletives, the brokenness of windows email agents. Subscribing to the mailing list is a 2 step process. First you click on the above link and fill out the form and submit it. That will, in a minute or so, cause an email to be sent to the address you used in the form. You MUST reply to that message to confirm the subscription. Whatever email agent you use from there is up to you, but I'd suggest Thunderbird. I personally am partial to kmail, but then I'm running linux on everything here, no M$ stuff allowed on the premises. Its not open for discussion and has not been in 28 years since I discovered the trs-80 color computer and an operating system for it called OS9. Sorry folks, my rant for the day because of that gateway. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Succumb to natural tendencies. Be hateful and boring. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 08:41:44 -0700, pandora.koura wrote: If i ditch google groups what application can i use in Windows 8 to post to this newsgroup and what newsserver too? Google is your friend. Do try to find the answer to your questions before asking here. Search for usenet news reader application. Or use Thunderbird. For the news server, you use your ISP's newserver, if they offer one, or Gmane, or any of dozens of commercial news providers who will give you access to one for a small fee. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:06:30 -0700, pandora.koura wrote: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list What is python-list@python.org how can i post there? It's the same thing it was when I posted the above URL a few hours ago. Didn't you follow the link before? It has instructions there. -- Steven -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On 16/09/2012 17:06, pandora.ko...@gmail.com wrote: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list email client to python-list@python.org wait a minute! i must use my ISP's news server and then post o comp.lang.python no? What is python-list@python.org how can i post there? I'm on Windows Vista and read many Python mailing lists with Thunderbird via gmane. -- Cheers. Mark Lawrence. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups
On Sunday 16 September 2012 09:11 PM, pandora.ko...@gmail.com wrote: Τη Κυριακή, 16 Σεπτεμβρίου 2012 4:18:50 μ.μ. UTC+3, ο χρήστης Ben Finney έγραψε: Νικόλαος Κούρας nikos.gr...@gmail.com writes: Iam sorry i didnt do that on purpose and i dont know how this is done. Iam positng via google groups using chrome, thats all i know. It is becoming quite clear that some change has happened recently to Google Groups that makes posts coming from there rather more obnoxious than before. And there doesn't seem to be much its users can do except use something else. Using Google Groups for posting to Usenet has been a bad idea for a long time, but now it just seems to be a sure recipe for annoying the rest of us. Again, not something you have much control over, except to stop using Google Groups. If i ditch google groups what application can i use in Windows 8 to post to this newsgroup and what newsserver too? Thunderbird 15 as the newsgroup client and Unison Access as the news server (it's a paid service). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
On Sep 16, 11:18 pm, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: Using Google Groups for posting to Usenet has been a bad idea for a long time, but now it just seems to be a sure recipe for annoying the rest of us. Again, not something you have much control over, except to stop using Google Groups. Agreed. While it was painful but usable in its previous form, the new Groups is an incomprehensible mess of pointlessness and shittery. It's still possible to use the old theme for the time being, which does avoid the double-up posts, but it's pretty clear Google aren't listening to any feedback about Groups whatsoever. I've really NFI why they bought DejaNews only to turn it into such a broken service. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
In article 6c732de0-b10f-4d40-853c-f62682970...@rg9g2000pbc.googlegroups.com, alex23 wuwe...@gmail.com wrote: On Sep 16, 11:18 pm, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: Using Google Groups for posting to Usenet has been a bad idea for a long time, but now it just seems to be a sure recipe for annoying the rest of us. Again, not something you have much control over, except to stop using Google Groups. Agreed. While it was painful but usable in its previous form, the new Groups is an incomprehensible mess of pointlessness and shittery. It's still possible to use the old theme for the time being, which does avoid the double-up posts, but it's pretty clear Google aren't listening to any feedback about Groups whatsoever. I've really NFI why they bought DejaNews only to turn it into such a broken service. They didn't buy the service. They bought the data. Well, they really bought both, but the data is all they wanted. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)
On Sep 17, 10:55 am, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: They didn't buy the service. They bought the data. Well, they really bought both, but the data is all they wanted. I thought they'd taken most of the historical data offline now too? Either way, it was the sort of purchase-and-whither approach you usually see Yahoo take. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
